บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Knowing When to Exit as a Founder, with Dimitar Stanimiroff

previous business um that we worked very hard on trying to stand up. 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:44.000 That didn't work. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:50.000 In part of the technology, uh, we ended up repurposing and standing something up that actually did take off. 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:58.079 And so having had this kind of initial setback, I think, makes even more invested in the success and makes walking away harder. 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:04.560 Because that for so yeah, so you you do a business, doesn't quite work, you get pieces and you've suddenly got that traction and it's working really well. 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:16.079 What is going through your mind at that stage where you've kind of got sort of business trajectory of sort of ever increasing and just kind of almost the same time ever increasing personal costs or lack of enjoyment? 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:17.040 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:22.480 I think the the lack of enjoyment, unfortunately, you can endure for longer than you probably should. 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:31.360 Um there's uh you know a bill that eventually have to pay for for that, but as I said, you do endure it for for longer than than healthy. 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:42.000 Um I think in my personal case, um we got um again in hindsight very lucky um because we ended up raising money in the US. 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.120 So we did 500 startups and then we raised in the US. 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.160 Um, and this is 2011, so 2010-2011. 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:56.399 And um, you know, during those days, if you raised in the US, you had to physically be in the US. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:06.720 I think this is actually coming back again, but obviously there was a big window where you could raise from um US um venture funds uh and be running your business from from anywhere. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:13.439 That was not the case uh when we were building OVIA, and so um we basically had to to relocate. 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:17.120 And then you have you're confronted with two two kind of difficult decisions. 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:37.759 One is continuing to endure what is a pretty unpleasant um work environment, if you will, and the other one is doing that you know, miles away from home, leaving behind family, friends, um, and at the time girlfriend who ended up being my fiancee and my wife and mother of my children. 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:42.959 So um, you know, in hindsight again, I keep on saying hindsight, but hindsight is 2020. 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:51.519 It it ended up working really well, but purely, I think, um because of luck, I suppose, or the way the way things kind of panned out. 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:54.720 But it feels like it's such a big commitment that you've made. 00:06:54.800 --> 00:07:15.199 I mean, I can just imagine that moment, like you've taken these huge steps in terms of you've gone again with the same founding team, you've stepped away from your own country, you've stepped away from your part, like you've taken all these steps to really commit to this idea, and at the same time, there's a sense of have I oh, there's this big cost that I'm paying. 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:19.040 Yeah, um, I mean, the answer is you'd you would never know, right? 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:26.720 Again, I'm looking back now, you know, what is this like, you know, it's 15 years, um, and I'm thinking, oh my god, this worked really well. 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:27.680 Who knows? 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:32.560 I could be, you know, could have been in a different universe, could have been sat here putting my hair out thinking, oh, you know. 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:40.000 Um again, you know, so I didn't make like, you know, um uh anything meaningful from the transaction. 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:46.560 So, you know, what ended up happening is myself and one of my other co-founders ended up being bought out um uh after the series A. 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.720 And so at that point, the valuation is you know, it's not high by any means. 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.839 Um, but that was pretty much my first proper job out of university as well. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.879 So it's you know it's meaningful for you at the time. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:05.759 Um, but then the company continued to operate for you know another eight years or so and eventually ended up being acquired. 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:18.480 And if that you know acquisition was, I don't know, in the multi, you know, millions, billions, it was probably in the multi millions, but not you know, nowhere near billion, then probably I'll be sitting here pulling my hairs out thinking, oh my god, what have I done? 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.000 But I don't think that was the case at all. 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:25.920 Um and so But it's interesting that because let's say it had been a multi-million pound acquisition. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:33.200 I suppose the question is, even could you have sustained another eight years of that? 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.279 And would if you had stayed there, would would that have been its trajectory? 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:38.080 I don't know. 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:39.120 The I I don't know. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:44.159 Um could I have endured it for you know another eight years? 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:45.120 Maybe, who knows? 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:49.200 But again, you know, things are so dynamic, you don't really think about this. 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:58.240 At the time, I just knew that I was deeply unhappy, I had spent an awful lot of time building this, and I I just could not see myself continuing, especially if I had to relocate. 00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:58.559 Yeah. 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.360 And so for me it was a pretty clear-cut decision. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:02.960 Uh, or at least I say that now. 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:08.960 At the time I do remember kind of, you know, thinking, should I do it, should I not do it, should I do it, should I not do it? 00:09:09.120

--> 00:09:18.320 The one thing I I do know very clearly is that the second I actually said, you know, I'm leaving, I kind of felt like a burden was lifted off my shoulders. 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:19.759 So it felt good, that's all I know. 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:21.440 So how so how did you then make this decision? 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:24.159 So it turns out a decision that lifted the weight. 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:26.799 What was your process to get the decision? 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:28.000 Was anyone involved in it? 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:34.559 Was there anything that particularly gave you clear anything you recommend to other founders to to do in this in this circumstance? 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:54.320 I got years later, ironically, I got really good advice from um Michael Pry, who is a storied entrepreneur, one of the co-founders of Trello, um, who I don't know, my kill his quote here, but it was something along the lines of making sure that you really enjoy the journey because the destination is never guaranteed, right? 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:05.039 And so, you know, if there's any advice I could give is basically what Michael told me, make sure that you know the journey itself is is fun and enjoyable because you might never get to that outcome, right? 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:13.919 And by the way, the journey is going to be brutal anyway, and so kind of fun is it's tricky, but make it as as much fun as possible, right? 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.159 At least surround yourself with people that you like. 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:23.440 Yeah, I'm I'm just wondering because so we have have another guest guest in the podcast called Freddie, and she her whole theme was like actually it should be fun. 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:23.759 Yeah. 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.759 And it feels like it's slightly indulgence, counterflux indulgence. 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:33.759 Actually, fun leads to higher performance, more sustainability, greater creativity. 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:36.799 Like it should not be a word we're we're scared of as well. 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:37.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:38.320 Totally. 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:42.960 And you know, things will be fun, uh, but equally they will be very, very challenging. 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:52.159 And I I again I would reiterate this: make sure you surround yourself with people that A, you respect and you really enjoy working with, but also you like hanging around with. 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:57.600 Um But with any business, you're almost like making a series of like all-in decisions. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.120 It's kind of like you are making bigger and bigger commitment, and and it feels like there's almost a time at each stage to go. 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:06.480 Actually, is this the right step for me? 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:08.000 Do I want to go all in again? 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:09.200 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.639 Or is now the time to go,

no, I'm gonna take my chips off the table. 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:12.799 Yeah. 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:22.159 Even if there are not many chips or no chips, it's like let's go and play with some other people on a different table, because actually it's gonna be more fun and I might get better results from it. 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:22.639 Yeah. 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:38.480 Well, this is a good segue, probably, into the the other um company that I co-founded, which again, if you want to use the word exit loosely, I exited, but it was, you know, we we ended up shutting down the business, and that is a much harder decision, I think, um, to make. 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:46.080 Um because again, as an entrepreneur, you're kind of wired to see the bright side of things in in many instances. 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:57.279 Um, you have to stay positive, you have to motivate your team, you have to you know motivate yourself when you know the uh when when things are kind of tough and you don't necessarily want to do the things that you have to do. 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:02.320 Um and it's much more difficult, I would say, to actually pull the plug then and walk away. 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:04.720 Quitting on time feels like quitting too early. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:12.639 Um, and very often, you know, when you're kind of in in that kind of situation, you end up probably sticking around for a lot longer than you should. 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:20.080 You really do only have a certain amount of time, don't you, as a as a as a founder, and every year spent on one thing is a year and you're not spent on something else. 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:20.639 Yeah. 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:33.440 I've written uh about this with a slightly different analogy, um, which is thinking of um you know thinking of your time as uh a stack of chips that you have on a poker table. 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:46.960 Um and the idea is that if you keep on playing every single hand that you're dealt, no matter how good or bad it is, good is good, but if if it's a bad hand, you should not keep on raising and committing, you should fold and wait for a better hand to be dealt. 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.039 Um this is very much the same example, you know. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:13:00.960 If you're in a situation where you've been bet dealt a bad hand for whatever reason, you know, maybe things look great when you started, but for whatever reason the market turned, it didn't work out, team members left, you know, pick your reason. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:07.919 Um the most sensible thing you can do is to essentially quit whatever you do and and start something else. 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:11.919 You know, it could be in the form of a pivot like we did in the first business. 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:23.279 Um it could be completely shutting down and pursuing something else, um, but kind of sticking around, I think, is probably the one thing that if I had to do it all over again, I would not do. 00:13:23.360

--> 00:13:29.200 I would be more brutal and honest with myself and probably I say that now, but try to quit earlier. 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:34.480 Um it's really interesting because things I did a business, I think probably around time we're actually going, going bike. 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.919 And around year three of that, we did it for four years before we shut it. 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:42.720 Like I think we'd probably in retrospect go, this is not this is not gonna work. 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.960 Like we'd done some like we'd won some rewards and we'd got like some partnerships and looking like superficially looked really good. 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:47.279 Yeah. 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.120 But commercially it just was not working. 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.000 There were just some market things, and it still wouldn't work today. 00:13:52.080 --> 00:14:00.399 The crazy thing is around that time I did a startup weekend where you kind of launch, sort of do like sort of old school, starting weekend yeah. 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:00.879 Awesome. 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:12.639 But like actually met this team of like uh there was we had a front-end developer, a back-end developer, uh, someone was really good at marketing, but like actually as as a as a as a team had all the skills to it. 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:18.399 And we came up with this concept called Event Lick, uh, which was like pre-test events through pre-validate events. 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:19.679 Actually, really cool idea. 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.159 Subsequently, model was used elsewhere. 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.559 And so actually on paper, that was a really great business to launch. 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:26.879 Right. 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:36.000 And we came up with a really cool concept during the thing, and it got really good feedback from people on it, but because I was committed to my other business, didn't pursue. 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.120 We actually got we got approached about funding to go on a startup accelerator. 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:45.919 So that was going like all the signals you'd want from scratch to go, this is actually a really good thing, really good team, good idea, funding, etc. 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:56.720 Didn't pursue it because was was committed to a business that we probably should have stepped away from, which I think is a real I mean good lesson there. 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:58.879 But yeah, but like there is a cost, isn't there? 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:05.120 I mean the point is that that is actually it's not even like a theoretical cost, that is actually a very tangible cost. 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:10.000 Yeah, so I really like the stack thing because my chips are on something else. 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.639 Yeah, they could well have been on something different. 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:13.440 Yeah. 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:26.240 Um talking of Stack, I think um, you know, Stack, I think, has had actually a pretty big part in shaping my entrepreneurial journey, the way I think, um, the way I act as an operator. 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:38.480 And so um this is another quote from um Joel Sparski, who was one of the founders of Stack Overflow, um, who I was very lucky to have um as a personal mentor when we were building Harris in my second company. 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:47.759 Um, and he was the one person who very early on told me after you know discussing metrics and and how we were progressing that this is probably not worth pursuing. 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:54.080 And this was probably like, I don't know, a few months after after launching um uh officially. 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.120 And I at the time felt, whoa, this is way too early. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:06.159 Um but he was so persistent in saying, no, no, no, this is this is not gonna work, this is not gonna work, and it's not what he wanted to hear when he first launched, but he was right. 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:28.799 Uh, and and the brilliant thing he kept on telling me is that you know he said, Look, I've been around startups uh a long time, and the biggest mistake, a lot of my friends who are incredibly bright people, you know, who have worked for Google for many years, some of the biggest tech companies, they're all very smart, but the one big mistake that they make is to confuse perseverance and grid uh with just investing in in bad ideas. 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:33.360 And you know, you would need the perseverance, you would need the grid, but it has to be on the right idea. 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:40.799 And if you're not on you know one of these kind of upward, up into the right journeys, you should probably walk away. 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080 So that's that's that's a good one to think about. 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:53.279 The really triggered for me is a sense often when you work with founders who are new managers, there's a sense of I can make anyone work within their team. 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:59.759 It's kind of like I can so people persevere with the wrong people in their team as well for too long. 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:09.839 But actually, and they think it's they're doing it because they're supporting people or they're but often it comes down to ego, it's like not wanting to admit they're not good managers or they can't make anyone work. 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:17.200 Yeah, and I just feel there's a correlation between this, this idea of like committing committing to the wrong thing for too long, probably because of ego. 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:26.240 We tell ourselves for good reasons, yeah, perseverance, grit, yeah, yeah, sort of support of people, but ultimately a lot of it comes down to ego and not look thinking we can't do it or we've made a mistake. 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:26.720 Yeah. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:35.440 With with um with startups, I think it's even harder because you know, this being a founder, um, it's a big part of your identity. 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:41.440 So

shutting down the business, you know, I kind of feel like it's almost like chopping off a limb. 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:52.880 Um very extreme and graphic, but you know, it's that kind of thing where you know killing the business is kind of foregoing a big part of yourself, which is very, very difficult. 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.680 With the hiring example, I totally agree with you. 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.160 I think it's easier from uh you know just wearing my operator hat. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:07.200 If you inherit a big team, I think it's a lot easier to make that call than if you have hired someone. 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:18.559 Then I think it becomes a little bit trickier, you know, because you do you kind of feel like you owe people who you have um brought on board, you you have the moral duty to make them successful. 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:27.839 But sometimes, and often look, it could be that you know you made a bad hiring decision, uh, and to your point you should basically come to terms with it and proceed accordingly. 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.640 But I think often it's like, no, I can make it work. 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:37.200 Um but I think that one is it's easier compared to deciding to walk away from a business. 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:37.839 100%. 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:38.720 I think that's right. 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.519 People find that difficult, the sort of the higher bit difficult. 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:46.079 So like walking away from a business is even even the language of that, cutting off a limb. 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:50.240 Yeah, people are like, no, but people think, oh, it's like my business is my baby. 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:50.640 Yeah. 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:52.000 I mean you're using that language. 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:53.680 How can you possibly shut a business down? 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:57.039 Because you are you are cutting away even more graphically than a thing. 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:03.839 So I think the language people use and the stories they tell really impact their ability to make sure my team is my family. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:04.160 Yeah. 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.039 Well, you've got you're not gonna you can't let your sister go. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.799 I mean, this is you know, talking of which this is probably the hardest um thing, you know. 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:19.680 When we um decided to um start winding down her that was probably the hardest thing to do. 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:28.079 Um having to let go people that you convinced to join your team who were happily employed elsewhere, and they kind of gave you the vote of confidence. 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:33.519 You, the rest of the team, um other co-founders, um, the idea. 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.119 So that is probably the hardest thing. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:51.359 That and also letting down customers who are paying and rely on your service, and you say, look, you know, we've decided to start to shut down the business, and you know, you've got three months to find another another provider because um you know we're going to completely pull the plug on this um come April, you know. 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.759 So those are really, really tough decisions and and you know hard conversations. 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:03.039 But interestingly, if you flip it the other way around, I think these things feel really hard and they are hard, and they do and they are hard. 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.680 But your team will leave if better opportunities come up often. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:14.000 Your clients will leave if you're if your service is saying, and they won't give you an extended notice period on on your contract. 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:20.240 So I sometimes feel we feel this guilt and this obligation, which can be quite one way. 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:30.640 Firstly, yes, at some point it will happen, but I think when that happens naturally, it shows that this individual has outgrown the team they're in, the company they're in, that there's no more opportunity for them, right? 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:31.839 And it's not a bad thing. 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:33.519 I think we should be celebrating this, right? 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:48.160 Um if they leave prematurely, at least, you know, in your kind of um understanding of what that means, or mine, it will be due to you kind of failing them, I think, one way or another, right? 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:53.839 You're not providing that way for them to grow further, they're deeply unhappy for whatever reason, and you missed it, right? 00:20:54.079 --> 00:21:04.720 So I kind of feel like, you know, yes, it can happen, but you know, it's on you when it happens, and if it happens when they have outgrown the business, then everyone is, I think, in a in a better place. 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.359 And you shouldn't be forcing people to stay. 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:15.839 So I left Stack Overflow, you know, after you know, almost five years there, and I left to pursue um, you know, uh another business idea, felt very passionate about. 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:20.000 I didn't feel any less passionate about what Stack Overflow were doing at the time. 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:21.440 I deeply believed in it. 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:27.599 Um, in fact, I was probably the biggest cheerleader for the business um you know from the sidelines. 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:36.799 But I kind of felt like I had done my piece, I have built a strong enough business would which I felt would endure without me there, which it certainly did. 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:41.119 Uh and I just wanted to go and explore other things that I felt would make me happier. 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.160 So that's been quite a consistent trend for you, isn't it? 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:48.079 Yeah. 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:54.400 Which and it showed also like your success, as you said, like your biggest success financial success was not actually your own, but it's

someone else's. 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:54.640 Yeah. 00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:04.160 So it shows that that ability to suppose A operate in different environments, but B the That your high quality team members can be super valuable. 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:04.880 Yeah. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:10.559 Now that you've experienced both, what would you what might your next thing be? 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.920 Like if you're talking to other founders, would you recommend them try working for other people? 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:18.640 Do you feel that's given you something different? 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:23.279 For me, certainly it has, but one thing I do know is that it's not for everyone, right? 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.359 I think founders are kind of you know strange animals, right? 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:41.519 You know, you've got you've got people who are absolutely dead set on working for themselves and themselves only, and they uh you know self-aware enough and they say, look, I can just not be managed, I have to be in charge, and this is who who I am. 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:42.960 There's nothing wrong with that. 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:49.200 Um, I know a handful of founders who fit that description, um, and I'm great friends with them. 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.839 Wouldn't I like to be on the same team with them if we are peers and working together under someone else? 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:54.559 Probably not. 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.480 And I don't think, and they were the first one to raise their hand and say that is the case, right? 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:04.799 So if a you know, if if you're like that, then it's probably not a good idea to go and work for for someone else. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:15.519 Um, because I don't think that will make you happy, I don't think it will make you productive, and I don't think it will be um a good rel you know, good relationship with whoever you know whoever company you end up joining. 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:16.720 Do you see what I mean? 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.599 Yeah, um I approached it differently. 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:25.599 You know, I never had an issue necessarily with uh authority or you know, being my own boss, that kind of stuff. 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.240 For me, it's always been about um working on something that I believe in, right? 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:37.680 And often it could be something that you're very passionate about, and for whatever reason it doesn't exist, and you decide that you're going to go and create it. 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:51.119 Um, but equally the businesses that I have been lucky to work for, I have deeply believed in, I've said, Oh, I you know, I really like this idea, it's not my idea, but I would embrace it very much like my own, and I'll give them my own to make it make it happen. 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.640 And so if you're like that, I think then absolutely go and do that. 00:23:54.799 --> 00:24:13.440 But if you're more in the former camp, which is look, you know, I have to run the ship here, I think you'll be probably way more happy and more productive, and you would have better outcomes if you pursue your own individual path and you know, stay co-founder CEO or just running your own thing. 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:30.720 Do you feel that you're unusually pragmatic for a founder then in terms of this ability to sort of take a step back and make these kind of sensible decision of vertical commons like time to exit, kind of let's say with your second, but like you had money on the table to like go again with that? 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:32.960 It wasn't like you didn't have the option to continue. 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:43.519 How how do you feel you are able to take the step back and make these more emotionless decisions in quite sort of emotionally charged times? 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:44.799 I don't know. 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:46.400 I wish I'd I don't know. 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:48.319 I I wouldn't say I'm like super pragmatic. 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:57.039 I think you know, I I'm just like everyone else, you know, a lot of these decisions are driven by emotions, and it's even more true when you're in it. 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:10.000 Again, I can I can talk about it theoretically now, um, now that I'm kind of removed away from the situation and you know the ones have somewhat healed, but it's never an easy decision, right? 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:22.400 Um, and again, with the the example I gave you with heresy, where we run the company for three and a half years, I think the writing was on the wall, and you can start feeling it probably two years in, right? 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:24.559 Maybe two and a half years in. 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:31.119 Um and I think I mentioned um this last time we we spoke. 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:40.640 Um, what made it somewhat easier, I think, to realise is again, uh I had just come out of of Stack Overflow, which was growing like mad. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:47.759 Uh and so I had been very fortunate to see what this sort of proverbial hockey stick growth looks like, right? 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:49.519 And everyone is chasing that. 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:55.519 Um and so one year, two years in, you're not seeing it. 00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:02.400 Um you might decide to stick around and look in their companies, like um I can't really think of a good example here. 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:11.119 But Figma Figma is a great example where it took them actually a long time to um to kind of go up and to the right, and once they did, boy, you know, um watch them grow. 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:21.119 Um and that could happen, but again, um I kind of felt like we were we were missing the mark there and going back to the um Chips, the chip uh analogy. 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.880 Um kind of you know, that's that's kind of in the back of my head. 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:33.200 And then I've got Joel, you know, kind of saying, mm-mm, you know, it's been it's been

six months, it's been a year, I'm like, oh shit, you know, it's clock sticking. 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:38.160 The other thing which I mentioned when we last spoke is that my uh personal life changed a lot. 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:43.359 So my risk appetite uh you might say decreased significantly. 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:50.400 Um we started when we started hearing was me and my co-founder, uh, and it was me and my wife uh in my personal life. 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.519 And by the time we shut down the company, I had two kids under two. 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:57.839 Um, you're a father, yeah, you know, you know what that kind of can do to your life. 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:10.319 Um, and so when you have that as well on you know, in the balance, it just makes the other piece a lot more easier to kind of hit home and be like, okay, this is just not working, and and and move on. 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:23.119 So almost if we say there's a finite amount of chips that you've got to play with, it feels like suddenly when you have these other dependents or something, the value of the game suddenly spikes as well. 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:24.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:28.480 Yeah, the the buying is essentially uh you know jump like tenfold. 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:29.599 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.960 Well, this made me thinking, A, is that I'm still really bad at poker. 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:38.079 Like I I really I really can't resist the concept of buying like not playing, yeah. 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.359 Um which why I'm really bad at it. 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:50.960 But I I do think it's a nice analogy though, because it's kind of like that there's so many elements you can't control, but you do only have a certain amount, you start with a certain amount of chips. 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.680 Yeah. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:53.200 You can win more, yeah. 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:58.000 Not enough time, but I suppose money can buy you more time and more resources and more opportunities. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:10.319 I think in in poker, and I'm I'm you know, I'm I'm not a good poker player by any means um decent, I'd like to think, but you know, um I think it's way more about the hands that you choose not to play versus the ones you play, right? 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:19.839 Um and again, if you're throwing chips at every single hand you're dealt with, that's a a guaranteed way to um to be off the table within a very short period of time. 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:24.079 But it sounds like also going in with a sense of what does working look like? 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:24.319 Yeah. 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:34.400 Because it feels like the Stack Overflow experience in your mentor gave you a very clear sort of paradigm for this is this is a two-king starting point hand, you should play this. 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:34.960 Yeah. 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:37.279 If there's another king, this you can continue. 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.839 If you're still sitting on a king of two and a three after three cards, yeah. 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:43.680 Maybe think about folding. 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:47.519 We definitely put like a four on the tape at that stage, time time to go. 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:48.000 Yeah. 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.839 You talked about that that profile of growth. 00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:02.000 Is there anything else that you think after three years, two years, you haven't seen it's time to maybe fold and not not play the hand? 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:09.039 I mean the the the growth is essentially um uh sort of the tip of the iceberg, if you will. 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:13.519 There's a lot more things that kind of go underneath to you to produce that that growth, right? 00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:21.519 So um, but if you were to pick the one thing that would be the the telltale sign, I would I would say is that, uh at least at least for me. 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:34.160 And again, look, um we could raise uh venture funding, so we raised you know a million dollars um for for heresy uh on the back of a deck. 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:44.079 Um and so there's big expectations riding on you, and you know, with every single um milestone that you hit, um people kind of cheering and celebrating. 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:48.799 But at some point the milestones, at least for me, felt like they plateaued, right? 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.039 Um and they weren't so meaningful, right? 00:29:51.119 --> 00:30:09.920 So and maybe you can, you know, I'm kind of looking back, maybe we could have raised more money earlier on, maybe we got greedy and we felt like, oh, you know, one million is enough to basically get us uh from deck to idea customers and then to um over you know a certain threshold of uh annual recovering revenue. 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:10.880 I don't know. 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:22.240 Um but the one thing I do know is that that you know it felt like everything kind of started plateauing, uh, and the joy of actually building and pursuing that idea just disappeared. 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:32.720 Um and again, you raise venture money, you're chasing venture returns, both for yourself and for your investors, and you have you know investors, and you have to be you have to be honest with yourself. 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:46.000 Um, I think, and you know, and this is I think the best thing for investors as well, ironically, but I think sometimes when you're again so committed, you know, you're pushing the startups because it's a sankos, right? 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:48.160 You're like, oh, you have to keep going, you have to keep going. 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:56.640 Um, and the truth is, you know, not necessarily, you know, I'd rather preserve uh and I can speak this, you know, I can I can say this as a as an investor as well. 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:06.079 You know, I've had like a bunch of startups, just one this week, by the way, who emailed and said, look, you know, we've pursued this for um you know three years as well, it's not working. 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.000 We actually tried to raise as well. 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.920 Uh we spoke to you know uh 50, 60 VCs, no one is willing to write us a check. 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.960 We're folding, uh, you know, folding the business. 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:18.480 That's the right thing to do. 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:30.880 Um I've had other companies um who could folded way earlier, um, purely because they felt like they were not um hitting the milestones that they they wanted to hit, and they said, look, you know, have the money back. 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.440 We you know, we're gonna go and do something else. 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:36.319 Um I think that's perfectly normal. 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:52.319 So I think I'm I mean it's been really good, but I think what I've taken from this is the sense of exit can be positive or negative, but that can also just be of the moment, like a negative exit can also lead to positive stuff, like you've only got so many chips, yeah, don't waste them on the wrong hand. 00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:11.519 And actually, what if the hand's not only bringing you that sort of growth curve, yeah, but there's also like a feeling to it as well, like if it's not bringing you joy, if you're not enjoying the people on the journey with, yeah, maybe this is maybe this is not the hand, this is not the game, and that's and that's okay because there are gonna be lots of other like there will be other opportunities. 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:26.480 Yeah, if you take this as your guiding principles, if you will, I think it would make it a lot more easier to walk away from you know these proverbial bad hands that kind of clenching on because you expect that there will be a you know financial incentive you know further down the line. 00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:41.440 And I've seen this so many times, and this is you know, both with founders but also with employees and kind of um you know managers in in kind of big tech companies um that are you know private. 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:56.000 So many people I think kind of have wasted I don't see that I don't say it lightly by the way, but I know personal friends of mine who have wasted, I feel like, so much time kind of holding on, waiting for an IPO when this IPO is never gonna happen, right? 00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:01.599 Um, but you're wearing your rose tinted glasses and you're like, no, it will happen, the market just needs to turn. 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:09.920 And in the meantime, again, you could have started your own business, you could have joined another company which is actually on on path to IPOing. 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:21.440 And so, you know, it's if we keep on circling back and coming to the chips, you know, don't waste the chips on bad hands, is you know, the one single thing that you know, if you were to take anything out of this conversation, I would say is that.