บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ What Can the Administration Do about H-1B Abuse?

Well, first you have to have more than basically 15% 69 00:04:46.300 --> 00:04:50.399 of your entire workforce composed of H-1Bs. Even if you 70 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:54.350 meet that hurdle, You get out of having to protect 71 00:04:54.389 --> 00:04:57.610 against layoffs and recruit U.S. workers if you're going to 72 00:04:57.649 --> 00:05:02.810 pay your H-1B $ 60, 000 a year or if the H-1B 73 00:05:02.850 --> 00:05:07.009 has a master's degree. And that $ 60, 000 figure was put 74 00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:11.449 in place in 1998. Congress never indexed it for inflation. 75 00:05:12.189 --> 00:05:14.709 And while it might have had a thin reed of 76 00:05:14.790 --> 00:05:22.290 respectability in 1998, today you need $ 122, 000 salary. to have 77 00:05:22.310 --> 00:05:27.209 the same standard of living as $ 60, 000 in 1998. So essentially, 78 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:30.699 there are hardly any H-1Bs who need less than that. 79 00:05:30.939 --> 00:05:34.300 And many of them have these completely ludicrous, you know, 80 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:38.680 VisaMill master's degrees. So essentially, I think data I've seen 81 00:05:38.819 --> 00:05:42.959 from our colleague John Miano has sort of quantified that, what, 82 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:48.089 like 0.3% of employers are actually, you know, that's one 83 00:05:48.389 --> 00:05:52.610 third of a percent. Right. of 1% of employers actually 84 00:05:52.930 --> 00:05:54.089 have to meet these requirements. 85 00:05:54.670 --> 00:05:58.939 And I remember this became, some listeners may remember that 86 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:04.019 one of the political impetuses of this was a story 87 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:06.339 about 10 years ago, 2015 in the New York Times, 88 00:06:06.939 --> 00:06:09.709 about Disney. And it got a lot of attention because 89 00:06:09.730 --> 00:06:11.389 it was front page, it was in the New York Times. 90 00:06:11.449 --> 00:06:13.560 So if it's in If it's in the Times, then 91 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.160 it's important, even if it's been important for a long time, 92 00:06:16.180 --> 00:06:19.819 where Disney and Orlando laid off their entire American IT staff, 93 00:06:19.899 --> 00:06:24.459 replaced them with H-1Bs that the Americans were required to train. 94 00:06:25.139 --> 00:06:28.699 And there was all kinds of fulmination from politicians about, 95 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:31.720 this is outrageous, blah, blah. Of course, it is outrageous. 96 00:06:32.060 --> 00:06:33.920 But what are you going to do about it? Because 97 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.730 they're not breaking a law. Hundreds of employers have done 98 00:06:36.769 --> 00:06:38.649 that before that and since. 99 00:06:39.629 --> 00:06:45.839 Yeah, it's very sort of... tragic comic that when that happened, 100 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.819 Senator Grassley and a few other senators sent a letter 101 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:54.300 to President Trump's, this is 2017, President Trump's acting Secretary 102 00:06:54.339 --> 00:06:57.870 of Labor, saying, you know, what can you do to 103 00:06:58.470 --> 00:07:02.430 investigate and deal with the companies who are committing these 104 00:07:02.569 --> 00:07:08.329 outrageous abuses? And the acting Secretary of Labor, President Trump's 105 00:07:08.529 --> 00:07:11.569 acting Secretary of Labor, had to send them a letter 106 00:07:11.629 --> 00:07:15.000 back essentially saying, well, you know, under the laws you 107 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:20.699 have passed and we're obligated to abide by, there's really 108 00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:23.160 nothing we can do. You know, and that's not saying 109 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:27.899 anything negative about Senator Grassley. He's, for years and years, 110 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:33.899 he along with former Congressman Smith and Senator Dick Durbin 111 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.839 were among the most steadfast in terms of trying to 112 00:07:37.899 --> 00:07:42.500 get H-1B reformed. But, you know, leadership in both parties 113 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:47.029 in the U.S. Congress never had any interest because their 114 00:07:47.069 --> 00:07:49.850 interests were satisfying Silicon Valley. 115 00:07:50.269 --> 00:07:51.069 And it is interesting. 116 00:07:51.110 --> 00:07:55.670 You mentioned Senator Durbin, Democratic senator, whose term will be 117 00:07:55.730 --> 00:07:57.949 ending in a month or so, whenever it is that 118 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:01.399 the new Congress comes in because he retired. He was, 119 00:08:01.459 --> 00:08:04.720 in fact, working with Senator Grassley on a number of 120 00:08:04.779 --> 00:08:08.189 immigration issues. Now, again, They were targeted things. It wasn't 121 00:08:08.209 --> 00:08:11.170 the whole immigration issue. Durbin has all kinds of views 122 00:08:11.209 --> 00:08:15.529 that I would consider complete nonsense. But it does point 123 00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:21.750 to an older phase of immigration politics where there could 124 00:08:21.829 --> 00:08:27.569 be bipartisan pushes for actual reform, even though there were 125 00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:32.389 even stronger bipartisan pushes to prevent reform and abuse of 126 00:08:32.429 --> 00:08:35.549 these programs. It's kind of, you know, I would expect 127 00:08:35.610 --> 00:08:40.029 Democrats would have latched onto this issue, and they don't 128 00:08:40.210 --> 00:08:41.490 seem to have, quite frankly. 129 00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:44.850 You know, there used to be, you know, just as 130 00:08:44.889 --> 00:08:49.450 you said, you know, I remember back in 1996, Lamar 131 00:08:49.629 --> 00:08:55.500 Smith's omnibus immigration enforcement legislation, which was eventually enacted as 132 00:08:56.029 --> 00:09:01.159 the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. 133 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:04.519 initially passed the House with a majority of Democrat support. 134 00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:09.169 So it's been quite a transformation. Part of

the problem 135 00:09:09.210 --> 00:09:14.570 goes to the Clinton administration. President Clinton once, or his advisors, 136 00:09:14.710 --> 00:09:18.590 once issued a veto threat to the bill containing the 137 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:23.519 H-1B quota increase in 1998, saying it didn't sufficiently protect 138 00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:28.039 American workers from layoffs. Things like that. President Clinton. But 139 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.580 then he eventually signed off on the deal that was 140 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.500 imposed by House and Senate Republican leadership to basically get 141 00:09:35.610 --> 00:09:39.470 rid of the protections for U.S. workers, he signed it. So, 142 00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:42.450 you know, on one hand, issued a veto threat because 143 00:09:42.470 --> 00:09:45.169 there was nothing in there, then signed the bill with 144 00:09:45.210 --> 00:09:50.850 nothing in there. And so, you know, they're conflicting pressures, 145 00:09:51.590 --> 00:09:54.750 I guess, you know, on politicians. They, you know, they 146 00:09:54.769 --> 00:09:57.429 don't want to alienate Silicon Valley. They want to protect 147 00:09:58.370 --> 00:10:02.990 American workers. And unfortunately, when push comes to shove, the 148 00:10:03.029 --> 00:10:06.649 result has always been to side with Silicon Valley. Yep. 149 00:10:07.389 --> 00:10:10.460 So one of the things you referred to, and it's 150 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.409 been in the news a lot, is the vice president 151 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:19.929 has an anti-fraud task force. And announced efforts at kind 152 00:10:19.970 --> 00:10:23.070 of approaching this issue, if you will, sort of sideways, 153 00:10:23.669 --> 00:10:26.970 in other words, or indirectly, or however, if you could 154 00:10:27.029 --> 00:10:29.970 describe that, what is the, you know, sort of start 155 00:10:30.009 --> 00:10:33.889 maybe with what is the pipeline and how Vance's task 156 00:10:33.909 --> 00:10:39.129 force is trying to address that H-1B abuse without actually 157 00:10:39.529 --> 00:10:42.759 being able to address H-1B directly because they're not allowed 158 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:43.360 to legally? 159 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:49.879 Well, American companies can sponsor alien workers for green cards generally, 160 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.529 but not always if they're skilled workers, have college degrees, 161 00:10:55.590 --> 00:10:59.450 graduate degrees, whatever. There were about 80,000 of these green 162 00:10:59.509 --> 00:11:05.389 cards available each year. But in most instances, the employer 163 00:11:05.470 --> 00:11:08.269 first has to go through what's called the labor certification 164 00:11:08.330 --> 00:11:13.409 process with the labor department to ostensibly show that giving 165 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:16.879 a green card to this worker, this alien worker, you know, 166 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.250 they become a permanent resident and then can become a citizen, 167 00:11:20.870 --> 00:11:24.269 you know, will not adversely affect American workers. And there 168 00:11:24.309 --> 00:11:28.110 are no, you know, they're not sufficient American workers available 169 00:11:28.250 --> 00:11:32.230 and able and willing to do the job that the 170 00:11:32.269 --> 00:11:34.830 company wants the alien worker for. 171 00:11:35.149 --> 00:11:38.100 So listeners understand, because this is something even, like I said, 172 00:11:38.129 --> 00:11:43.500 congressmen don't get it. The H-1B program, which is ostensibly 173 00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:47.600 a temporary visa program, does not have those requirements, it's 174 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:52.539 when a company is trying to convert those people into 175 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.350 green cards, regular immigrants, that they then and only then 176 00:11:56.409 --> 00:11:58.049 have to jump through these hoops. 177 00:11:58.470 --> 00:12:05.049 Exactly. And they're not really, they're somewhat illusory hoops. Famously, 178 00:12:05.090 --> 00:12:08.970 at least in my mind, was a law firm video 179 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:12.250 which got put on the internet probably infelicitously. 180 00:12:12.850 --> 00:12:14.769 From the 90s, I believe, right? Years ago. 181 00:12:15.049 --> 00:12:18.960 Yeah. By this law firm, this employment law firm, you know, 182 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.679 explaining to employers, to immigration lawyers how to get through 183 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:28.710 labor certification with the desired goal of not finding an 184 00:12:28.769 --> 00:12:33.610 American worker. The strategies they could use to show, oh, sorry, 185 00:12:33.669 --> 00:12:37.519 no American workers available. So we've gone through labor certification. And, 186 00:12:37.529 --> 00:12:40.879 you know, it was obviously quite embarrassing that that ended up. 187 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:42.149 on the internet. 188 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:45.169 It was like advertising the job in a penny saver 189 00:12:45.210 --> 00:12:47.289 that nobody reads, that sort of thing. In other words, 190 00:12:47.669 --> 00:12:52.549 how could you game the system to avoid being stopped 191 00:12:52.629 --> 00:12:55.610 by those protections and hire the alien worker you wanted to, 192 00:12:55.690 --> 00:12:56.210 to begin with? 193 00:12:56.590 --> 00:12:59.909 Exactly. And I can see doing this in a closed 194 00:13:00.409 --> 00:13:04.009 seminar for immigration lawyers, but whoever thought it would be 195 00:13:04.029 --> 00:13:07.379 a good idea to put this on the internet. Similarly, 196 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:12.360 for For decades and decades, the biggest talking point from industry, 197 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.740 from advocates on the H-1B program is this is the 198 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:19.340 way companies can get the best and brightest workers from 199 00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:24.370 around the world to maintain U.S. economic competitiveness. That's why 200 00:13:24.389 --> 00:13:28.370 the H-1B

program for the best and the brightest. And 201 00:13:28.409 --> 00:13:32.690 then when the U.S. Chamber of Commerce sued President Trump 202 00:13:33.429 --> 00:13:38.700 over his proposed $ 100, 000 deal, H-1B fee for aliens coming 203 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:44.230 into the United States, one of their arguments in court was, well, 204 00:13:44.250 --> 00:13:46.769 the president is assuming this program is the best and 205 00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:51.590 the brightest. No, it isn't. That completely trampled Congress's intent 206 00:13:52.070 --> 00:13:54.649 to limit this program to the best and the brightest. So, 207 00:13:55.070 --> 00:13:57.830 you know, when they decided, look, we need to win 208 00:13:57.870 --> 00:14:01.019 a lawsuit, let's forget all the you know, the fluff 209 00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:03.559 we've been putting out for decades, we got to say 210 00:14:03.940 --> 00:14:06.299 this program is not for the best and the brightest. 211 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:09.659 And on the very same day, a different office in 212 00:14:09.700 --> 00:14:12.059 the same building at the Chamber of Commerce issued a 213 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.360 press release calling the best and the brightest. 214 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:17.259 And on that very day, it went up on their website. 215 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:18.360 So it's hilarious. 216 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:21.220 You wrote about that. We'll have a link to that 217 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:22.340 in the show notes as well. 218 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.799 So labor certification, Vice President Vance, the Secretary of Labor, 219 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.480 were essentially saying we're going to suspend specific companies such 220 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:36.480 as Microsoft, such as some of the Adobe, some of 221 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:43.580 the big Indian job contracting firms, Tata, Cognizant, things like that. 222 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.460 We're going to suspend them from the ability to go 223 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.639 through labor certification, essentially meaning we're going to suspend them 224 00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:54.639 from the ability to sponsor aliens from green cards based 225 00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:59.190 on their laying off of U.S. workers and hiring all 226 00:14:59.250 --> 00:15:03.100 these So, yeah, just as you said, this is a 227 00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:08.320 sideways effort to crack down on H-1B abuse, given that 228 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.919 there are no legal tools available in the H-1B program. 229 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:18.360 My concern is that while these Vice President Vance, Stephen 230 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:25.909 Miller eloquently describe the horrendous abuses and very, very valiantly 231 00:15:26.009 --> 00:15:29.679 calling out companies like Microsoft sort of unheard of. Mm hmm. 232 00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:34.389 You know, once Department of Homeland Security under President Bush 233 00:15:35.450 --> 00:15:40.720 totally opened up another program for foreign college students to 234 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.919 work for these companies with even less protections than under 235 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:47.899 the H-1B program. Why did they do it? Because the 236 00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:52.960 head lobbyist of Microsoft at a D.C. dinner party told 237 00:15:53.259 --> 00:15:56.259 Michael Cherkoff, The secretary of PHS, look, you need to 238 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.850 do this for us. And it got done. 239 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.230 And so that story always struck me. It's like something 240 00:16:02.350 --> 00:16:07.649 out of a Christopher Buckley parody about Washington power politics. Literally, 241 00:16:07.669 --> 00:16:13.620 they're in a dinner party at Georgetown and government and 242 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:18.379 lobbyists are colluding to screw American workers. I mean, it 243 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.379 was just it's almost like almost two on the nose, 244 00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:22.340 but it was a real thing. 245 00:16:22.850 --> 00:16:26.450 And then amazingly, when the regulation came out doing this, 246 00:16:27.269 --> 00:16:30.980 this was in the Bush administration, the regulation essentially said, 247 00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:34.500 we're doing this because Congress has imposed this cap on 248 00:16:34.509 --> 00:16:37.720 the number of H-1B workers. Well, this cap is hurting 249 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.799 these companies who need all these H-1Bs. So we're going 250 00:16:40.820 --> 00:16:43.340 to give these companies a way to get around the 251 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:47.000 H-1B cap by using this other program that has no 252 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.730 cap whatsoever. They weren't even fighting it. They were You know, 253 00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:55.710 they were, you know, proudly displaying it in the regulations explanation. 254 00:16:55.750 --> 00:16:58.549 So it was quite interesting. But in any event. 255 00:16:59.129 --> 00:17:01.549 And just before we get back to the vice president thing, 256 00:17:01.590 --> 00:17:03.850 what we've been talking about here is the OPT program, 257 00:17:03.929 --> 00:17:06.549 optional practical training. And we may get back to that 258 00:17:07.049 --> 00:17:10.789 again later. But if we continue on the vice president's initiative. 259 00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:11.509 Oh, sure. 260 00:17:11.589 --> 00:17:13.869 Yeah. And, you know, again, kudos to the vice president 261 00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:17.710 for calling out Microsoft and doing something about it, which 262 00:17:17.769 --> 00:17:20.829 I've never heard. seen before in all my years. 263 00:17:21.470 --> 00:17:23.910 And along those lines, sorry to interrupt you again, George, 264 00:17:23.990 --> 00:17:28.910 but remember there was Norm Matloff, who was now passed away, 265 00:17:28.950 --> 00:17:32.119 but he was a professor of computer science at UC Davis. 266 00:17:32.690 --> 00:17:34.170 He was a former, he actually had worked in the 267 00:17:34.230 -->

00:17:37.960 tech industry and was a high profile critic of H1B. 268 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:43.180 He always used to talk about the political distinction between 269 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:47.900 the Intels and the Infosys. And what he meant by 270 00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:51.700 that was Intels were the big American companies that hired 271 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.339 H-1Bs and that that was somehow good, but that politicians 272 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:01.660 would say the Indian rent-a-programmer companies like Infosys, but there's others, 273 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.190 are bad. Intel good, Infosys bad is the way he 274 00:18:05.470 --> 00:18:08.150 talked about that in shorthand. And so what was so, 275 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:10.700 like you said, what was so remarkable was about the 276 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.420 vice president's press conference was that he did complain about 277 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:19.450 the Infosys, the big Indian renter programmer companies, but they 278 00:18:19.549 --> 00:18:23.829 also went after two big American tech companies, not Intel, 279 00:18:23.930 --> 00:18:30.150 but Microsoft and Adobe. And so that I essentially communicated 280 00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:36.460 that this H-1B thing isn't just people cutting corners, Indian 281 00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:40.240 companies cutting corners. It was that both the big American 282 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:45.279 companies and the Indian staffing companies are all abusing this program. 283 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.589 Yes, exactly. It was very valiant. And not only do 284 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:54.529 the American companies commit the same sort of abuses with 285 00:18:54.569 --> 00:18:57.650 their own H-1B employees, but they're some of the biggest 286 00:18:57.730 --> 00:19:02.230 clients of the Indian job shops. The Indian job shop 287 00:19:02.289 --> 00:19:06.460 remains the official employer of the H-1B, but in many cases, 288 00:19:07.339 --> 00:19:08.259 they're working at Apple. 289 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:08.859 Right. 290 00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:12.769 They're just not considered an Apple employee. So it's it's 291 00:19:12.829 --> 00:19:16.549 pretty amazing. The concern I have, though, is I'm not 292 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:20.430 sure this is going to stand up in court, because 293 00:19:20.490 --> 00:19:25.410 as I said, the two. The two prerequisites in labor 294 00:19:25.430 --> 00:19:31.549 certification are is there now, you know, is your hiring 295 00:19:31.609 --> 00:19:34.849 of this getting a green card for this foreign worker 296 00:19:34.890 --> 00:19:38.640 going to hurt American workers now? are there not sufficient 297 00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:43.200 American workers now? That's totally divorced from, you know, what 298 00:19:43.220 --> 00:19:45.880 did you do to American workers a few years ago 299 00:19:47.589 --> 00:19:51.089 And so, you know, they can't, you know, Department of 300 00:19:51.130 --> 00:19:55.380 Labor can suspend a company from labor certification. It can 301 00:19:55.430 --> 00:20:01.740 even debar a company from labor certification for years. However, 302 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:07.539 the company can appeal to administrative review board, eventually federal court, 303 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:13.549 and you know, if there's nothing backing up the suspension 304 00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:16.690 or the debarment, you know, things are going to fall apart. 305 00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:22.630 And there's only one small connection between labor certification and 306 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:26.420 a fire laying off of a U.S. worker and replacing 307 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:32.079 them with an H-1B. You know, you commit fraud, misrepresentation 308 00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:35.910 in the labor certification process, you can be suspended, you 309 00:20:35.930 --> 00:20:39.980 can be debarred. But as to what you did in 310 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:45.480 the past with H-1Bs, the only connection is if you 311 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:51.309 applying for labor certification, you're obliged by regulation to let 312 00:20:51.369 --> 00:20:54.829 the American workers you laid off know that this job 313 00:20:54.890 --> 00:20:57.190 is available, you know, so they can apply for it 314 00:20:57.230 --> 00:20:59.730 if they feel like, you know, fat chance, but here 315 00:21:00.049 --> 00:21:02.490 you can apply for it. That's the only connection. So 316 00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:05.630 if they don't let the American workers they laid off 317 00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:09.799 to hire the H-1B know, that they want the H-1B 318 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.160 for a green card, they could get in trouble. 319 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:13.000 I see. 320 00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:16.140 But, you know, just let the American workers know that's 321 00:21:16.180 --> 00:21:19.640 the only requirement and that's the only connection. So I'm not, 322 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.880 you know, hope, you know, it very well could be 323 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:28.059 that the investigations that the administration have going on against 324 00:21:28.099 --> 00:21:32.319 these companies go beyond simply what they did with their H-1Bs. 325 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.130 You know, then there might be a really strong case 326 00:21:37.190 --> 00:21:40.930 for suspension or debarment. But if it's simply that they've 327 00:21:41.009 --> 00:21:45.430 laid off American workers facilitated by the H-1B program in 328 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:49.029 the past, while a horrendous abuse, which I, you know, 329 00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:52.380 for 30 years, I, you know, I've worked for people 330 00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:57.019 trying to trying to correct that abuse to end that abuse. 331 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:00.640 You know, Congress said that's not that's abuse, but it's 332 00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:03.440 not fraud. It's perfectly legal. Right. 333 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:05.720 And that's the important distinction you draw in one of 334

00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:07.549 the papers. We're going to link to the reports you 335 00:22:07.569 --> 00:22:10.930 wrote on this, is the difference between abuse and fraud. 336 00:22:10.970 --> 00:22:14.869 In other words, abuse is basically, at least in this context, 337 00:22:15.410 --> 00:22:19.410 is misusing or using the program in a way contrary 338 00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:23.220 to American workers' interests, but one that's legal, that you 339 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.079 can get away with, like firing all of Disney's IT workers. 340 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:29.480 Whereas fraud, in this case we're talking about, is basically 341 00:22:30.099 --> 00:22:33.210 violations of the law. And, you know, they– I mean, 342 00:22:33.269 --> 00:22:34.569 at that press conference, there were. 343 00:22:34.490 --> 00:22:35.130 A bunch of people. 344 00:22:35.190 --> 00:22:38.190 I mean, there were Inspector General from the Labor Department, 345 00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:41.890 the Labor Secretary, others. They may find fraud. Hopefully, they've 346 00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:46.150 done some work on that. But as you suggest, a 347 00:22:46.710 --> 00:22:48.890 lot of the stuff they were talking about, at least 348 00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:54.170 in the general level, is stuff that Congress has basically 349 00:22:54.349 --> 00:22:56.009 permitted companies to do. 350 00:22:56.490 --> 00:22:57.809 It should be against the law. 351 00:22:58.029 --> 00:22:58.230 Right. 352 00:22:58.250 --> 00:23:01.450 Exactly. But it isn't against the law. And if I appear... 353 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:04.920 vociferous about this issue. I have to note that during 354 00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:09.880 the 1998 negotiations, which were designed to gut the American 355 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.150 worker protections that Lamar Smith got through the House Judiciary 356 00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:19.349 Committee in 1998, an unnamed member of the Republican leadership 357 00:23:20.049 --> 00:23:25.119 pulled Mr. Smith aside and said, Lamar, you need to 358 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:28.920 put Fishman on riddle. So if I'm vociferous about it now, 359 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.029 I guess I was vociferous about it 30 years ago. 360 00:23:32.609 --> 00:23:34.970 So this was 30 years ago. Can we name the 361 00:23:34.990 --> 00:23:37.150 person now, or do you actually not know who it is? 362 00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:41.309 Well, I was there. It was Dick Ramey. Okay. 363 00:23:41.349 --> 00:23:43.730 Well, name names. You know what I mean? There's nothing 364 00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:44.230 wrong with that. 365 00:23:44.619 --> 00:23:44.839 Yeah. 366 00:23:44.859 --> 00:23:47.740 So I mean, that does point to how this is 367 00:23:47.859 --> 00:23:51.059 something that is a bipartisan problem. 368 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:52.799 Both parties are responsible for this. 369 00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:55.890 Both parties have in the past, at least Democrats now 370 00:23:55.930 --> 00:23:59.369 are totally AWOL practically, but both parties in the past 371 00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:02.069 have or at least elements within them have tried to 372 00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:06.079 fix this problem. But elements of both parties have succeeded 373 00:24:06.390 --> 00:24:09.359 in not fixing it and keeping it broken in the 374 00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:10.819 interests of these corporations. 375 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:12.859 Yeah. And it wasn't just 1996 and 1998. In 2017, 376 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:20.640 Congressman Daryl Issa was pursuing legislation to at least put 377 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.880 a wage floor on H-1Bs of, I'm trying to remember, 378 00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:29.250 somewhere around $ 100, 000, just a simple wage floor. House Republican 379 00:24:29.269 --> 00:24:32.569 leadership refused to let that bill go to the House 380 00:24:32.630 --> 00:24:35.130 floor after it passed the House Judiciary Committee. 381 00:24:35.309 --> 00:24:36.750 Unbelievable. Unbelievable. 382 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:39.349 So, you know, it's not like things have changed. 383 00:24:39.789 --> 00:24:42.369 Right. Do we know if there have been any lawsuits 384 00:24:42.410 --> 00:24:47.000 yet against the suspensions? Because just to be clear- They 385 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:52.380 suspended those companies, Microsoft and Intel and the Indian staffing companies. 386 00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:57.220 But suspension is like a temporary thing that could be 387 00:24:57.259 --> 00:24:59.869 lifted any time as a result, if I understand it, 388 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:04.240 is there's some investigation going on. Whereas debarment is basically 389 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:08.619 you're excluded from this program altogether for a period of whatever, 390 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.220 two years or something like that. 391 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:16.769 Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean, suspension is– for 180 days. 392 00:25:17.809 --> 00:25:21.269 It can be extended if there's an ongoing investigation. So 393 00:25:21.289 --> 00:25:25.230 I guess conceivably, it could be extended indefinitely. But in 394 00:25:25.299 --> 00:25:28.799 my view, if an administration seeks to suspend a company 395 00:25:28.819 --> 00:25:33.319 indefinitely without any evidence of a real investigation going on, 396 00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:37.839 the company could easily go to court and get that ended. 397 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:40.359 But as far as we know, like Microsoft or whatever, 398 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:43.829 haven't sued yet to I'm. 399 00:25:43.549 --> 00:25:46.269 Sure there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. 400 00:25:46.410 --> 00:25:47.549 Right. Presumably. 401 00:25:48.029 --> 00:25:50.730 You know, and Microsoft has defended itself in the press, 402 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.900 you know, talking about what a small percentage of its 403 00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:00.220 workforce is composed of H-1Bs. And I readily acknowledge that secretaries. Right. 404 00:26:00.700 --> 00:26:02.400

Truck drivers and what have you. 405 00:26:02.849 --> 00:26:06.849 Yeah. They're not H-1Bs, you know. Right. But certainly on 406 00:26:06.890 --> 00:26:11.829 the West Coast, a huge percentage of the actual I 407 00:26:11.869 --> 00:26:14.410 don't know if people use that term anymore, computer programmers, 408 00:26:14.470 --> 00:26:19.210 their coding is sort of going over to robots. But 409 00:26:19.569 --> 00:26:24.190 in terms of computer engineers and software developers and system programmers, 410 00:26:25.089 --> 00:26:30.710 foreign-born individuals, H-1Bs or not, permanent residents, citizens, but foreign-born, 411 00:26:31.549 --> 00:26:35.809 a huge component, a huge proportion of the workers in 412 00:26:35.829 --> 00:26:40.599 those industries. So It'll be interesting to see what happens 413 00:26:41.180 --> 00:26:45.819 and interesting to see whether there's evidence that can stand 414 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:50.160 up in court of things that are actually against the law, 415 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:52.039 as Congress has, unfortunately. 416 00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:53.359 Right, right. 417 00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:57.680 So one of the other ways that the administration is 418 00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:01.460 trying to get at this is by imposing fees, basically 419 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:09.299 trying to price out cheap labor taxes. foreign labor used 420 00:27:09.339 --> 00:27:12.599 in these programs. And so there have been several ways 421 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:16.400 they've done that. You referred to the H-1B entry fee. 422 00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:19.259 So there was a fee for people entering on H-1B visas, 423 00:27:19.539 --> 00:27:22.119 which wouldn't have applied to many people because many, if 424 00:27:22.180 --> 00:27:24.210 not most of them, are already here as students or 425 00:27:24.250 --> 00:27:28.640 something else. And then when that was at least temporarily 426 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.740 struck down, if I understand this correctly, and you can 427 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.140 correct me, they applied a new fee of about the 428 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:35.940 same amount to everybody who gets an H-1B, even if 429 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.720 they're already here. And there's also an attempt to have 430 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:42.309 a fee for this optional practical training program, which you 431 00:27:42.349 --> 00:27:45.049 referred to, which is kind of like step two in 432 00:27:45.069 --> 00:27:48.869 the pipeline, the one before the H-1B itself. So are 433 00:27:48.890 --> 00:27:52.049 these fees likely to do much of anything? Are they 434 00:27:52.089 --> 00:27:54.230 going to stick at all? And even if they do, 435 00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:55.730 will they make much of a difference? 436 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:02.279 Well, they're all very interconnected. And everything you said is correct. 437 00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:06.099 The original H-1B fee, which the president has the power 438 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.579

to do by utilizing his power to prohibit the entry 439 00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:15.460 of aliens in the national interest, $ 100, 000 fee. But as 440 00:28:15.500 --> 00:28:21.299 you said, many, many H-1Bs convert from student status or 441 00:28:21.339 --> 00:28:24.299 some other status. They're already in the United States. So 442 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:28.480 an entry fee doesn't apply to them. They're already here. 443 00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:34.549 Even that $ 100, 000 entry fee has been enjoined by some 444 00:28:34.589 --> 00:28:38.009 federal district courts. We'll have to see. I mean, I 445 00:28:38.029 --> 00:28:43.109 think it's perfectly legitimate and consistent with the president's powers. 446 00:28:43.690 --> 00:28:48.000 And even one federal district court, the judge who was 447 00:28:48.019 --> 00:28:53.039 an Obama appointee of an ex-staffer, a Democrat Senator Patrick Leahy, 448 00:28:53.829 --> 00:28:58.410 ruled in favor of President Trump's $ 100, 000 H-1B entry fee. 449 00:28:59.029 --> 00:29:01.180 But then, you know, two other judges ruled against it. 450 00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:02.950 We'll have to see what happens with that. 451 00:29:03.329 --> 00:29:05.430 And that was the lawsuit where the Chamber of Commerce 452 00:29:05.450 --> 00:29:07.390 spoke out of both sides of its mouth, where they were, 453 00:29:08.089 --> 00:29:10.829 the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in that lawsuit was saying 454 00:29:10.910 --> 00:29:12.519 that they're not best and brightest. 455 00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:14.079 What are you talking about? Of course, they're not best 456 00:29:14.150 --> 00:29:14.599 and brightest. 457 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:15.220 Yeah, exactly. 458 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.180 Anyway, go ahead. 459 00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:22.240 The second H-1B you refer to is simply an administrative fee, 460 00:29:22.299 --> 00:29:27.079 which would apply to All H-1Bs, so that's great in 461 00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:30.500 that it's not limited to those seeking to enter the U.S. 462 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.549 That was issued as a proposed rule. It still has 463 00:29:33.569 --> 00:29:38.430 to go through the rulemaking process. It's sort of a 464 00:29:39.470 --> 00:29:43.670 novel use of the fee authority, never really been done before. 465 00:29:44.450 --> 00:29:50.170 Usually fees are assessed to recoup costs of adjudicating the petitions, 466 00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:54.299 the visas. That doesn't necessarily have to be done. DHS 467 00:29:55.779 --> 00:30:00.220 essentially said, look, H-1B employers have a lot of money. So, 468 00:30:00.380 --> 00:30:02.700 you know, just like who was the bank robber who said, 469 00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:05.519 why do you rob banks? And his answer was, well, 470 00:30:05.539 --> 00:30:06.519 that's where the money is. 471 00:30:07.059 --> 00:30:09.059 Willie Sutton, I think. Is that right? Yeah. 472 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:13.079 Exactly. So basically that was the argument in the regulation. 473 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.980 Why are we assigning, you know, I think it was $ 103, 000 fee. $ 103, 265 fee. 474 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:23.700 I don't know how they came up with that, but yes. 475 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:26.519 Exactly. You know, how do we justify it? Well, this 476 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.180 will cover expenses having, you know, The entire gamut of 477 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.769 our adjudication programs, we're just charging H-1Bs because, you know, 478 00:30:35.089 --> 00:30:37.009 the employers have a lot of money, so they have 479 00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:37.910 the ability to pay. 480 00:30:38.289 --> 00:30:40.529 And there's kind of a precedent for that under Biden, right? 481 00:30:40.549 --> 00:30:44.089 Didn't Biden do something similar? Not about H-1Bs, but charged 482 00:30:44.190 --> 00:30:47.190 a whole lot more for certain visas than it would 483 00:30:47.250 --> 00:30:48.690 take to actually process them. 484 00:30:49.309 --> 00:30:54.190 Yeah, he did. Certainly not nowhere near the level of 485 00:30:54.230 --> 00:30:58.450 my favorite candy bar, the 100-gram bar. So that's a 486 00:30:58.470 --> 00:31:02.029 proposed rule. We'll see how that goes. And then most recently, 487 00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:05.740 the Department of Homeland Security is now going to impose 488 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:10.740 a $ 100, 000 fee on OPT. These are foreign college students 489 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.740 who are allowed to work for U.S. companies after they've 490 00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.700 completed their entire course of studies, which doesn't make sense 491 00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:21.980 to me because the definition of a foreign college student 492 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:27.019 on a student visa is in the Immigration Nationality Act 493 00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:31.109 is that they're here solely to pursue a course of studies. 494 00:31:31.650 --> 00:31:34.210 And yet now, as a result of that dinner party 495 00:31:35.769 --> 00:31:40.150 years ago in D.C., STEM students, foreign STEM students at U.S. 496 00:31:40.210 --> 00:31:43.660 universities can work for three years after. 497 00:31:43.940 --> 00:31:46.900 They stop being students, right? But they're still on their 498 00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:52.079 student visa. They're essentially masquerading as students with the government's 499 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:53.279 collusion or complicity. 500 00:31:53.589 --> 00:31:56.910 Exactly. And their employers don't have to pay Social Security taxes. 501 00:31:57.369 --> 00:32:00.670 They don't have to pay Medicare taxes. They don't even 502 00:32:00.690 --> 00:32:03.910 have to pay the prevailing wage usually. So great. The 503 00:32:03.930 --> 00:32:08.519 government's going to impose this fee and they justify the 504 00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:12.039 fee by, well, look, we've imposed this $ 100, 000 H-1B fee. 505 00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:13.619 So we're going to impose likewise $ 100, 000 OPT fee. So 506 00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:26.579

employers aren't incentivized to evade the H-1B fee. The only 507 00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:31.970 concerns I have is that while I hope this gets through, A, 508 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:38.410 the $ 100, 000 H-1B fee is not applicable currently. It's enjoined. 509 00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:43.650 But second, any foreign college student who an employer wants 510 00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:48.089 to get an H-1B visa for is already exempt from 511 00:32:48.109 --> 00:32:51.509 the H-1B fee because they're already here. By definition, they're 512 00:32:51.529 --> 00:32:52.849 a student at a U.S. university. 513 00:32:53.299 --> 00:32:53.579 Right. 514 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.609 In the US. So they're, you know, an entry fee 515 00:32:56.650 --> 00:32:59.950 doesn't apply for them. And the second concern I have 516 00:33:00.069 --> 00:33:03.589 is the fee isn't charged to the employer who's going 517 00:33:03.609 --> 00:33:04.609 to benefit. 518 00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:06.250 From the OPT fee. 519 00:33:07.049 --> 00:33:09.519 Yeah. The fee is going to have to be paid 520 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:13.079 for by the university. And if you look and read 521 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.579 the regulation, you know, their economic analysis basically says, well, 522 00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:21.259 you know, some schools, if they continue to sponsor as 523 00:33:21.339 --> 00:33:24.319 many of their foreign students for this OPT status as 524 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.720 they do currently, they're going to have to spend 20% 525 00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:33.170 of their entire institutional revenue on paying DHS for these fees. 526 00:33:33.509 --> 00:33:38.109 Right. And, you know... Well, that's a feature, not a bug, frankly. 527 00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:41.630 For a sympathetic federal judge to say, you know, this 528 00:33:41.710 --> 00:33:42.609 isn't kosher. So. 529 00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:45.779 So there's been no lawsuit on that OPT thing because 530 00:33:45.819 --> 00:33:47.839 that's still a proposed rule as well, right? 531 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:48.259 Exactly. 532 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:50.900 So it's, in other words, once it becomes finalized, if 533 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.339 that does, then the lawyers will pounce. Although presumably they've 534 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:55.480 already written up their motions. 535 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:59.509 Yeah. I would just, I don't know if this is possible, 536 00:33:59.789 --> 00:34:02.750 but I would certainly hope they could figure out a 537 00:34:02.789 --> 00:34:05.009 way to charge the employer. 538 00:34:05.710 --> 00:34:05.910 Right. 539 00:34:06.250 --> 00:34:11.329 With, again, the deep pockets rather than the small school 540 00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:14.940 somewhere out. in the heartland, these fees, you know, I 541 00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:17.820 think it would be, there would be a much better 542 00:34:17.949 --> 00:34:20.789 chance of success in court if they could make the 543 00:34:20.829 --> 00:34:21.449 employers pay. 544 00:34:21.929 --> 00:34:22.329 Interesting. 545 00:34:22.789 --> 00:34:25.789 We're at our time now, basically. But what we've basically 546 00:34:25.829 --> 00:34:27.409 been talking about, if you want to sort of, in 547 00:34:27.449 --> 00:34:30.769 a sense, kind of the umbrella approach to this is 548 00:34:30.809 --> 00:34:36.630 that Congress isn't addressing these problems. Congress created these problems. 549 00:34:37.130 --> 00:34:41.449 And so the administration is looking for is coming essentially 550 00:34:41.510 --> 00:34:44.409 from all different angles looking at some way to rein 551 00:34:44.530 --> 00:34:51.400 in this ridiculously abusive practice. And some may succeed, some 552 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:55.039 may not. But at least the administration seems to me 553 00:34:55.539 --> 00:34:59.639 to be credited with trying to come up with novel 554 00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:04.909 ways of addressing this if Congress and its tech employers, 555 00:35:05.179 --> 00:35:09.510 as it were, Congress's own tech employers, aren't willing to 556 00:35:09.820 --> 00:35:13.440 do anything about this. So anyway, thanks for talking us 557 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:18.380 through this. We'll have links to some of these pieces. But, 558 00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:21.440 and you know, it is, when you read it, sometimes 559 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:26.320 it's a little dispiriting because it's like, okay, somebody's addressing 560 00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:29.780 the issue. What you're kind of doing is pouring, I 561 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:32.320 don't know if this is a right word, but sort 562 00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:35.519 of sympathetic cold water on some of these. In other words, 563 00:35:36.019 --> 00:35:39.820 like you said, these things should be illegal, but in 564 00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:44.420 most cases, they aren't on purpose. And so Congress is 565 00:35:44.460 --> 00:35:47.010 the one that ultimately is going to need to fix this. 566 00:35:47.269 --> 00:35:49.949 There's only so much any administration can really do. 567 00:35:51.110 --> 00:35:51.389 Yeah. 568 00:35:51.630 --> 00:35:54.710 And that's, you know, if that's the unfortunate fact, I 569 00:35:54.750 --> 00:36:00.869 would greatly desire Congress, whoever controls Congress to address this issue. 570 00:36:01.250 --> 00:36:05.260 It's just, I've been disappointed many times, uh, in the past. 571 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:08.030 And you're not holding your breath. Um, thank you, uh, 572 00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.639 George Fishman, Senior Legal Fellow. 573 00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.619 Is that right? Is that your title? I forget. 574 00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:14.019 Anyway. 575 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.320 Yeah, that is my title. It sort of makes me 576 00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:18.869 feel a little old. 577 00:36:19.389 --> 00:36:21.349 Oh, the senior. Yeah, well, you are old. I mean, 578 00:36:21.369 --> 00:36:22.949 let's not kid ourselves here. 579 00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:25.170

I'm old. I don't even know what I'm going to 580 00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:27.050 do when I grow up and I'm already on Medicare. 581 00:36:27.969 --> 00:36:29.889 So anyway, we're going to have links to a lot 582 00:36:29.929 --> 00:36:32.679 of these pieces in the show notes. Thanks, George, for 583 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:35.340 walking us through this. And I have no doubt there's 584 00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:38.900 going to be more news and more developments on this 585 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:43.460 in the months and years ahead. And so we will 586 00:36:43.579 --> 00:36:45.139 have you back to talk about it then. 587 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:46.900 Mark, thanks so much for having me. 588 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:50.849 And finally, just a note on the election results. We're 589 00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.949 going to have a whole show on what are the 590 00:36:53.969 --> 00:36:58.449 election results in the midterms bode for immigration next week, 591 00:36:58.909 --> 00:37:04.070 because we had to record this before elections, but we 592 00:37:04.090 --> 00:37:06.610 do have up a post I'll draw your attention to 593 00:37:06.690 --> 00:37:09.929 by Art Arthur. The headline is, With Dems in Control 594 00:37:09.969 --> 00:37:12.949 of Congress, What Comes Next on Immigration? And it's a 595 00:37:12.969 --> 00:37:16.510 question mark because, you know, Art doesn't know any more 596 00:37:16.550 --> 00:37:19.199 than anyone else does, but he does think through it 597 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:24.219 and talk about possibilities and speculations and stuff. It's actually 598 00:37:24.260 --> 00:37:29.639 worth a look to kind of see what the roadmap 599 00:37:29.739 --> 00:37:33.190 might be because immigration wasn't really particularly important in in 600 00:37:33.230 --> 00:37:38.409 the election results, but the results will have potentially implications 601 00:37:38.530 --> 00:37:43.639 for immigration, probably not for most of enforcement, since that's 602 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:47.059 all funded through the end of Trump's term and would 603 00:37:47.099 --> 00:37:50.199 have to be, they'd have to pass legislation to change that, 604 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:52.670 which they're unlikely to be able to do. But there's 605 00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:55.409 going to be all kinds of, you know, hearings and 606 00:37:55.789 --> 00:37:58.809 investigations and what have you. But also, there may well 607 00:37:58.849 --> 00:38:03.429 be a push for smaller or bigger amnesties. And Trump 608 00:38:03.510 --> 00:38:06.449 may go along with some of that. He's expressed a 609 00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:09.329 certain amount of something like he's willing to work with 610 00:38:09.389 --> 00:38:10.590 Democrats on immigration. 611 00:38:11.210 --> 00:38:12.329 Who knows if that means anything? 612 00:38:12.590 --> 00:38:16.239 Like I said, we'll discuss that in more detail with 613 00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:19.920 Art Arthur and George Fishman, both of whom have very 614 00:38:19.980 --> 00:38:24.840 long experience in Washington. But for now, I just direct 615 00:38:24.860 --> 00:38:27.639 you to Art's piece to kind of think through what 616 00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:29.860 some of the issues are. That's it for this week's 617 00:38:30.409 --> 00:38:36.340 episode of Parsing Immigration Policy. The publications that George and 618 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:38.820 I talked about will be linked in the show notes. 619 00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:44.039 He has three reports on this, which have summaries at 620 00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:46.360 the beginning of what you need to know. But then 621 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.199 if you really want to dive deep, he's got a 622 00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:51.519 lot more detail there. So I would recommend that to 623 00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:54.619 you if you're interested in the kind of legal framework 624 00:38:55.059 --> 00:39:00.469 within which H-1B and the related programs operate. In the meantime, 625 00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:04.659 thanks for listening. Thanks to George for coming on the show. 626 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.969 Thanks to Brian Griffith, our producer, for making this whole 627 00:39:08.010 --> 00:39:10.309 thing work. And I hope you'll tune in next week.