บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S9 EP42: Dr. Rangan Chatterjee

right? So I know many 77 00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:21.020 people do think of it like that. Like, why is 78 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.740 this person come in today? You know, why did they, 79 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:25.699 why did they decide to come in today? They could 80 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.560 have just waited a few more days. Genuinely, hand on heart, 81 00:03:28.580 --> 00:03:31.780 I've never felt that. I've always been like, I'm honestly 82 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.460 so interested in people. So I always used to think 83 00:03:35.780 --> 00:03:38.080 in my early days as a GP, if someone did 84 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.699 come in with something that I might've considered relatively trivial, 85 00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:45.210 I would always ask myself, I wonder why that person 86 00:03:45.229 --> 00:03:48.750 has come in today. Why have they decided to, because 87 00:03:48.789 --> 00:03:51.319 it's not easy to get an appointment. Number one, right. 88 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:53.620 It's getting harder and harder, but in many parts, it's 89 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:55.919 really hard to get an appointment. You often have to 90 00:03:55.979 --> 00:03:58.590 take half a day off work. If not more, you've 91 00:03:58.629 --> 00:04:01.379 got to come. and wait in a waiting room. 92 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:02.770 It's not a laugh, is it? 93 00:04:02.810 --> 00:04:04.030 Yeah, it's not a laugh. 94 00:04:04.090 --> 00:04:04.270 Right. 95 00:04:04.310 --> 00:04:07.969 So I've always wondered why is it? And so I never, 96 00:04:08.330 --> 00:04:11.629 I'm honestly, I'm not, I'm actually not that judgmental anymore. 97 00:04:11.689 --> 00:04:11.849 Right. 98 00:04:11.930 --> 00:04:15.180 I'm, I'm kind of very much, I don't, I want 99 00:04:15.189 --> 00:04:17.639 to understand and actually trying to understand why that person 100 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.899 has decided to come in actually tells you a lot 101 00:04:20.939 --> 00:04:24.319 about their, their life and how they view their health. So, um, 102 00:04:25.779 --> 00:04:28.600 know yes people have a different tolerance to discomfort and 103 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:31.199 pain and some people will literally sit at home for 104 00:04:31.300 --> 00:04:33.220 two months with something that you wish they'd come in 105 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:35.350 yeah which is even worse in a way if they're 106 00:04:35.379 --> 00:04:38.310 too too yeah but then there's also the flip side 107 00:04:38.350 --> 00:04:40.389 but for me it's always about why has that person 108 00:04:40.410 --> 00:04:43.589 come in what is their belief about these symptoms that 109 00:04:43.629 --> 00:04:46.209 they have because here's the other thing i've learned right 110 00:04:46.389 --> 00:04:49.649 in um you know over two decades now of being 111 00:04:49.689 --> 00:04:53.589 a doctor is that People won't often, they don't always 112 00:04:53.709 --> 00:04:57.129 tell you what they're worried about in the consultation, right? 113 00:04:57.149 --> 00:04:58.790 So they might come in and tell you they've got 114 00:04:58.810 --> 00:05:02.379 a headache. And it's really bothering them. It's been going 115 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:05.660 on for a little while, whatever, you know, and you 116 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:09.139 do the consultation. And then as they're walking out the door, 117 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:11.759 you know, they're literally, the hand is on the door 118 00:05:11.779 --> 00:05:15.139 and they're like, oh, doc, you know, I also, it's 119 00:05:15.189 --> 00:05:18.110 kind of like, um, you know, my dad died of 120 00:05:18.290 --> 00:05:21.009 cancer or had a brain tumor or my best mate 121 00:05:21.050 --> 00:05:24.689 had a brain tumor. So actually there's always a reason 122 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:28.230 why that person's coming. It may seem trivial, but often 123 00:05:28.269 --> 00:05:32.389 they have an association in their heads. And so this 124 00:05:32.430 --> 00:05:34.310 is what the more patients you see, the more you 125 00:05:34.329 --> 00:05:36.810 just learn to be really open-minded again, you just have 126 00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:39.800 no idea. What's going on in someone else's life? 127 00:05:39.819 --> 00:05:41.399 Yeah, but painful skin. 128 00:05:41.459 --> 00:05:47.300 Come on, who has painful skin? 129 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:50.120 Can I ask one last doctor question? This isn't about me. 130 00:05:50.889 --> 00:05:54.089 But this is a parenting-related one. With Calpol. 131 00:05:55.009 --> 00:05:55.250 So. 132 00:05:55.410 --> 00:05:55.930 Yeah, go on. 133 00:05:56.029 --> 00:05:58.550 And then we'll get on to your children and various children. 134 00:05:59.329 --> 00:06:01.189 But I've always wondered, you know when you get your 135 00:06:01.209 --> 00:06:07.959 Calpol and it says 2.5 millilitres? What's, like... I've always 136 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:10.029 had long debates with my wife. She'll be like, oh 137 00:06:10.050 --> 00:06:12.389 my God, we've given them three milliliters when it should 138 00:06:12.410 --> 00:06:18.000 be 2.5. Presumably there's a big kind of... It's not 139 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.740 like if you go just over 2.5 it's dangerous, is it? 140 00:06:21.819 --> 00:06:22.420 Okay, so. 141 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:24.560 You're trying to get a doctor to suggest that you 142 00:06:24.579 --> 00:06:26.870 should go over prescribed amounts of medicine. 143 00:06:26.910 --> 00:06:30.069 Okay, so let me try and give you the reality 144 00:06:30.089 --> 00:06:32.889 from a medical perspective, okay? I'm enjoying the questions. I 145 00:06:32.910 --> 00:06:35.009 think Lisa, you know, if you're thinking them, it means 146 00:06:35.029 --> 00:06:36.970 there's a lot of people thinking them as well, right? 147 00:06:36.990 --> 00:06:40.490 So that's really interesting to me. So look, Calpol, you know, 148 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:43.250 the main enzyme ingredient we're thinking about is paracetamol, right? 149 00:06:43.310 -->

00:06:46.220 So we give that for a variety of different reasons, pain, 150 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:47.959 temperature management, all kinds of things. 151 00:06:47.980 --> 00:06:48.339 Painful skin. 152 00:06:48.649 --> 00:06:52.470 Yeah, that old sore skin. But paracetamol is not without 153 00:06:52.649 --> 00:06:56.980 its potential risks. That is the truth, right? Paracetamol should 154 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.959 not be taken in excess. And even in the adult dosage, 155 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:04.220 so that's how much you're meant to take as an adult, 156 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:08.019 some people actually don't even do well at the maximum 157 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:11.360 of that because we all deal with it genetically differently. Yeah, 158 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.170 so it's not this... Because we get it over the counter, 159 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:16.759 I think we... we sort of think, oh, it's nothing. 160 00:07:16.980 --> 00:07:19.060 Like it's just a bit of paracetamol. But actually it's 161 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:22.199 pretty powerful what it does. So I don't think there's 162 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.879 anything to worry about if you go a little bit over, right? 163 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:28.100 But I wouldn't recommend you do that regularly. I would 164 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:31.600 recommend you try and stick to the recommended dose. And 165 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:34.100 it is there for a reason. It's not there to 166 00:07:34.139 --> 00:07:37.610 be difficult. It's actually there because too much paracetamol on 167 00:07:37.670 --> 00:07:40.050 a kind of, even with an adult, but for a 168 00:07:40.149 --> 00:07:43.430 child with a forming liver, which has to actually process 169 00:07:43.449 --> 00:07:46.680 that paracetamol, You kind of don't really want to go 170 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:48.819 beyond the prescribed dose if you can help it. But 171 00:07:48.860 --> 00:07:51.199 if you do on the odd occasion, don't stress out 172 00:07:51.259 --> 00:07:53.189 about it, is what I would say. 173 00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:54.709 Okay. Let's talk about it. 174 00:07:54.709 --> 00:07:55.730 Is that helpful? Yes, it is. 175 00:07:55.750 --> 00:07:56.209 Very helpful. 176 00:07:56.230 --> 00:07:58.350 But I should say as well, we have had doctors 177 00:07:58.509 --> 00:07:59.850 on in the past. It feels like this is the 178 00:07:59.889 --> 00:08:02.069 first doctor we've had on and Josh has just unleashed 179 00:08:02.089 --> 00:08:05.009 on you. But those doctors were Harry Hill and Mike Wozniak. 180 00:08:05.089 --> 00:08:06.459 Yes, they've gone into comedy. 181 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:06.860 Good God. 182 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.540 You're our first, I'd say, are you still practicing, Doctor? 183 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.470 Because you write your books, you do your podcast. Are 184 00:08:12.490 --> 00:08:14.910 you still in the surgery? I stopped three months ago. 185 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:15.470 Did you? 186 00:08:15.490 -->

00:08:19.610 Three months ago. Yeah, after 23 years. Oh, wow. I 187 00:08:19.649 --> 00:08:24.259 say stop temporarily, at least, because I've realized that I 188 00:08:24.300 --> 00:08:29.180 just had too much going on. All those sore skin 189 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:30.279 losers walking in as well. 190 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:31.740 Last thing you need, is it, when you've got a 191 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:32.159 book deadline? 192 00:08:34.580 --> 00:08:36.179 What happened, I've been thinking about this for a little 193 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:38.580 while actually, because I think a lot of the things 194 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:40.200 that I write about and talk about each week on 195 00:08:40.220 --> 00:08:43.490 my podcast, people find really, really helpful and actually helps 196 00:08:43.539 --> 00:08:46.830 them manage their health. And I was asked to be 197 00:08:46.870 --> 00:08:49.190 a professor at Chester Medical School about a year ago 198 00:08:49.210 --> 00:08:52.610 to help with health education and communication. And so I'm 199 00:08:52.649 --> 00:08:55.149 involved with them with teaching medical students. And I thought, 200 00:08:55.230 --> 00:08:58.190 you just can't do everything. And, you know, this is 201 00:08:58.250 --> 00:09:02.269 a parenting podcast. I kind of really want to spend 202 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:05.940 quality time with my children and my wife. But I realized. 203 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:07.100 Good save. Good save. 204 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:11.940 Huge, huge save. Whoever's editing this, don't edit that last part. 205 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.720 Do you know what? The timing wasn't... It was the 206 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.330 way you said it was the problem. It wasn't that 207 00:09:17.350 --> 00:09:18.409 you did it, you said it too late. 208 00:09:18.450 --> 00:09:21.669 And what I've... And wife, yeah, just slip that in there. 209 00:09:21.730 --> 00:09:25.230 But in essence, I've realized that I actually do want 210 00:09:25.250 --> 00:09:28.129 to be living the life that I try and talk 211 00:09:28.370 --> 00:09:30.529 about each week on my show or in my books. 212 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.779 And actually, so many of us these days are chronically 213 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.620 stressed because we're overly busy. We've got too much going on. And, 214 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:39.639 you know, I think the truth is some of that 215 00:09:39.700 --> 00:09:43.070 decision came from you know what, what will people think? 216 00:09:43.129 --> 00:09:46.419 Will they think I'm a real doctor if I stop practicing? 217 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:48.740 And then I thought, this is ridiculous. Like moms all 218 00:09:48.779 --> 00:09:51.919 the time take maybe two, three years off from practicing 219 00:09:51.940 --> 00:09:55.870 medicine when they have children, when they're looking after the baby, 220 00:09:55.909 --> 00:09:59.590 let's say, there are mechanisms in place for people to 221 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:03.759 temporarily stop practicing and then go back. And I decided 222 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:07.179 for me at this point in my life, I still 223 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:10.500 feel I'm very much being a doctor in all the 224 00:10:10.539 --> 00:10:12.980 things that i do uh on my podcast and my 225 00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:15.740 books and teaching medical students so it feels it was 226 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.139 a bit weird at first you know the first day. 227 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:20.940 Um yeah when you get up on a monday and 228 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.039 you're like oh i don't have to see any i 229 00:10:23.070 --> 00:10:24.590 can just be on my own all day. 230 00:10:24.409 --> 00:10:28.870 Or is that just me thinking i think it was 231 00:10:28.929 --> 00:10:33.169 more about identity guys if i'm honest like yeah kind 232 00:10:33.350 --> 00:10:37.019 of you know from I went to medical school when 233 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.539 I was 18 and then it was all about qualifying. 234 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:41.759 Your dad was a doctor as well. 235 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:44.000 So was it sort of like expected of you from 236 00:10:44.019 --> 00:10:45.419 the family as well, slightly? 237 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:49.379 Yeah, I think I feel more comfortable talking about this 238 00:10:49.419 --> 00:10:51.909 sort of stuff these days than maybe 20 years ago, right? 239 00:10:52.450 --> 00:10:55.649 It's probably a bit of a cliche, but a lot 240 00:10:55.690 --> 00:11:00.330 of children of Indian immigrants, like my parents were Indian 241 00:11:00.350 --> 00:11:01.620 immigrants to the UK in the 1960s and the 1970s, 242 00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:07.529 a lot of their children end up being doctors. Now, 243 00:11:08.370 --> 00:11:11.169 I'm sure you've noticed that, right? And there's a reason 244 00:11:11.250 --> 00:11:11.590 for that. 245 00:11:11.610 --> 00:11:13.629 It's a cliche joke, isn't it? It's sort of like 246 00:11:13.710 --> 00:11:16.070 on the circuit in any Asian comic. It's one of 247 00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:17.889 their opening lines, really. Well, like what their mom and 248 00:11:17.909 --> 00:11:18.629 dad think of them. 249 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.779 Yeah, the opening line is, you know, I'm a failure 250 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.940 because I wasn't a doctor, an engineer or a lawyer. 251 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.600 I've ended up being a comedian, right? So that's the 252 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.139 opening line. But it is kind of true. Sometimes it's 253 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:31.960 not even actually spoken about. It's just kind of, It's 254 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.220 there in the, you know, what do they say? You know, 255 00:11:35.210 --> 00:11:37.830 a fish doesn't know that it's in water, right? Because 256 00:11:38.330 --> 00:11:40.309 it's sort of swimming in water the whole time. There's 257 00:11:40.330 --> 00:11:42.450 a better quote than that. I've messed up the quote, 258 00:11:42.470 -->

00:11:44.470 but you know what I'm talking about. A fish doesn't 259 00:11:44.509 --> 00:11:46.710 actually know what it is because it's surrounded by it. 260 00:11:46.710 --> 00:11:49.029 And I kind of feel it's the same in many 261 00:11:49.090 --> 00:11:52.490 immigrant families. We're just surrounded by this idea that actually, 262 00:11:53.330 --> 00:11:55.610 you're going to be a doctor, an engineer, or a lawyer. Now, 263 00:11:55.629 --> 00:12:00.889 it is changing, although not completely. So I did. And 264 00:12:00.929 --> 00:12:02.990 it's not that I don't care about people. It's not 265 00:12:03.009 --> 00:12:04.509 that I'm not proud to be a doctor. I don't 266 00:12:04.529 --> 00:12:06.879 think it's the right career for me. I think it is. 267 00:12:07.860 --> 00:12:11.070 But actually, I'm not sure I can honestly say that I... 268 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:15.700 had free choice in terms of what I ended up doing. 269 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.000 I'm not saying my parents said I have to do it, 270 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.159 but it was just there around me. And I think 271 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.210 my experience of that has actually quite significantly influenced how 272 00:12:25.429 --> 00:12:28.850 I parent my children, which is actually quite different. 273 00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:31.409 Yeah, that's quite interesting. Are they showing an interest? 274 00:12:32.250 --> 00:12:32.789 How old are they? 275 00:12:33.669 --> 00:12:37.669 So my son is 14 and my daughter was 12 276 00:12:37.669 --> 00:12:38.970 last weekend. Right, yeah. 277 00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:41.710 So that's quite an important stage of their life with 278 00:12:41.950 --> 00:12:43.490 decisions on where they're going. 279 00:12:43.509 --> 00:12:45.330 They have to start picking subjects a little bit more, 280 00:12:45.370 --> 00:12:46.350 don't they, for GCSEs? 281 00:12:46.370 --> 00:12:48.269 Yeah, my son last year had to pick his. Now 282 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:50.960 he's in his first GCSE year and he had to 283 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.659 pick those subjects. And so, you know, funnily enough, medicine 284 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:56.820 hasn't come up. Like one of the things I feel 285 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.419 I've struggled with a lot over my life, which I 286 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.070 was pretty open about in, my last book and this 287 00:13:03.129 --> 00:13:07.129 current book, I sort of, and again, it's a bit 288 00:13:07.149 --> 00:13:09.269 of a cliche, we're hearing this a lot these days, 289 00:13:09.389 --> 00:13:13.610 but for all my so-called success over the past few years, 290 00:13:13.649 --> 00:13:15.789 you know, I've certainly ticked a lot of the societal 291 00:13:15.909 --> 00:13:19.419 boxes of success. I don't think I was truly happy 292 00:13:19.460 --> 00:13:22.759 and contented until a few years ago, maybe four or 293 00:13:22.779 --> 00:13:24.820 five years ago. And I feel in many ways, I 294 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.360 had to get that success to teach me that that 295 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:28.820 success doesn't make you happy. 296 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.379 Yeah, I think that's a real- It's a kind of 297 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:37.870 weird thing where you get this definitely with comedians who 298 00:13:38.049 --> 00:13:41.350 you think success is going to bring you happiness, but 299 00:13:41.409 --> 00:13:44.129 almost you do need it proven to yourself that it's 300 00:13:44.210 --> 00:13:45.110 not the key. 301 00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:46.740 Well, yeah, 100 percent. 302 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.360 I think society puts things in place because of an 303 00:13:49.419 --> 00:13:51.639 identity you've chosen. So if you become a you know, 304 00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:54.620 I'm studying medicine. You need to become the doctor and 305 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:56.220 then the type of doctor. If you're a comedian, it's 306 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.259 like you've got to hit these levels of things to 307 00:13:58.299 --> 00:14:00.950 prove that you're a successful one. And I think actually 308 00:14:00.990 --> 00:14:03.230 when you do hit those things, you realize, oh, that 309 00:14:03.250 --> 00:14:05.509 hasn't brought me happiness. And everyone has their own internal 310 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:08.490 what actually is success to you individually. And it doesn't 311 00:14:08.529 --> 00:14:10.809 normally match up with societal sort of. 312 00:14:11.330 --> 00:14:12.049 Benchmarks. 313 00:14:12.090 --> 00:14:14.529 I think it very rarely does. It really doesn't. And 314 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:18.100 so for me, I've been very open about this over 315 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.639 the last couple of years. And it relates to what 316 00:14:20.659 --> 00:14:24.159 we just said about my parents, right? So I remember, guys, 317 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.440 as a child, maybe six or seven, I'd come back 318 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:30.730 from primary school, dead excited to tell mom and dad 319 00:14:30.750 --> 00:14:32.549 about my grades and like, oh, you know, I've got 320 00:14:32.549 --> 00:14:36.090 19 out of 20 in this test. And I can 321 00:14:36.149 --> 00:14:39.230 still remember my mom and dad not saying, well done. 322 00:14:39.889 --> 00:14:42.980 What they would say is, what did you get wrong? 323 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:46.789 So I'd explain what I got wrong and said, well, 324 00:14:46.809 --> 00:14:48.649 did you come top? I'm like, no, I was second 325 00:14:48.730 --> 00:14:50.590 or I came third. So who came top? What mark 326 00:14:50.610 --> 00:14:54.049 did they get? So no, no, but here's the thing, right? 327 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:57.110 I'm not blaming my parents, just to be really clear. 328 00:14:57.149 --> 00:14:59.669 What I've learned as I've become older and through this 329 00:15:00.309 --> 00:15:05.049 journey of parenting, I've learned that actually every single situation 330 00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:08.590 in life has multiple

perspectives, right? So from mom and 331 00:15:08.629 --> 00:15:13.330 dad's perspective, they're immigrants to the UK. They faced... Quite 332 00:15:13.350 --> 00:15:15.149 a bit of discrimination back then in a variety of 333 00:15:15.169 --> 00:15:19.460 different ways. And so the immigrant mentality is, if my 334 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.620 child can get straight A grades and become a doctor, 335 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:24.399 they're not going to have any of the problems that 336 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:27.360 we have. That kind of makes sense if you look 337 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:30.370 at it through their lens, right? But what happened with 338 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.610 me is little Rangan takes on the belief at a 339 00:15:32.649 --> 00:15:37.320 young age that I'm only worthy of love. when I'm 340 00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:39.850 top dog, when I get four marks, right? So what 341 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:42.549 I've also learned is that I've developed, for most of 342 00:15:42.590 --> 00:15:45.210 my life, my best mates would say, we don't know 343 00:15:45.429 --> 00:15:50.000 anyone more competitive than Rangan. He is fiercely competitive. But 344 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:53.159 I'm not anymore, guys, right? I'm not anymore, because being 345 00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.179 competitive wasn't who I was, it was who I became. 346 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:58.720 So if you think about it, if you think that 347 00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:01.019 you're only gonna get love when you're top dog and 348 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.600 you're doing really well, It's going to drive you to 349 00:16:03.620 --> 00:16:08.080 be really, really competitive. And yes, I was successful. I 350 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:12.580 was a straight A student, but it didn't equate to contentedness. 351 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:16.929 Whereas honestly, hand on heart, I'm 47 years old now. 352 00:16:17.769 --> 00:16:22.169 I've never felt this good. Like I feel really, really good. 353 00:16:22.210 --> 00:16:23.529 You look fucking great as well. 354 00:16:24.509 --> 00:16:28.889 Mate, I appreciate that. Don't judge a book by its cover. 355 00:16:30.190 --> 00:16:31.470 The thing is, though, because obviously you went down the 356 00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:34.639 medicine route and that was maybe your parents' influence. But 357 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.299 you're obviously an absolute natural when it comes to, like, 358 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.960 you know, podcasting, writing your books and broadcasting. And really, 359 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.720 the way you do it, you can be talking about anything, 360 00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:46.559 whether it be medicine or spool or the news or whatever. 361 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:47.139 You can. 362 00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:51.320 take something, like make it in a way that's interesting. 363 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:52.059 You're engaging. 364 00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:54.559 Yeah, and engaging and to take in as an audience, 365 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.279 you know, you can see that. So if you didn't 366 00:16:58.299 --> 00:16:59.840 have that influence, do you think there might have been 367 00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:02.279 something that you might have been swayed towards growing up 368 00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:06.140 or because it's so medicine focused that you didn't have that? 369 00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:08.180 I'll tell you what I do remember, right? So I've 370 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:10.700 always been a musician my whole life, right? I've always 371 00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:13.579 played instruments and, you know, when I was a teenager, 372 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:16.460 I would be, you know, I was obsessed with, you know, 373 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.500 rock music and writing songs. And I remember when I 374 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.579 was 21, so I was at Edinburgh Medical School and 375 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.420 then in a medical degree, you can take a year out, 376 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.329 like after your second year to do what's called an 377 00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:32.269 intercalated degree. So I did a degree in immunology, basically 378 00:17:32.329 --> 00:17:34.869 an honest degree in immunology when I was And I 379 00:17:34.910 --> 00:17:40.440 remember coming home for Christmas that December. And, you know, 380 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.500 I had really long hair, sort of middle of my back. 381 00:17:43.539 --> 00:17:46.160 I was playing with my bands. And I said to 382 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:48.569 mom and dad, I think, guys, I'm going to finish 383 00:17:48.589 --> 00:17:51.089 this year, get my immunology degree. And then I think 384 00:17:51.109 --> 00:17:53.349 I'm going to quit medical school to go on the 385 00:17:53.390 --> 00:17:58.569 road with my bands. And, oh my God, that was 386 00:17:58.589 --> 00:18:02.200 a punchy Christmas. That was a very punchy Christmas. Mum 387 00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:04.339 was amazing. Mum was trying to keep the peace. I 388 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:08.049 don't think my dad spoke to me for a few days. Like, 389 00:18:08.089 --> 00:18:10.740 he wasn't... He was just trying to avoid me. He 390 00:18:10.779 --> 00:18:13.700 couldn't quite understand what would happen to his son. Yeah. 391 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:15.039 He's still trying to deal with the hair. 392 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:15.940 And you've dropped that on him. 393 00:18:16.059 --> 00:18:18.119 He's trying to deal with the hair, exactly. The long hair. 394 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:20.619 And now I'm thinking about quitting medical school. And my 395 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.000 mom said, hey, listen, listen. I know you love your music, 396 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.059 but why don't you just finish your medical degree, right? 397 00:18:25.099 --> 00:18:27.240 At least finish it first. And then you've got options. 398 00:18:27.289 --> 00:18:29.650 And the truth is, I don't know if I even 399 00:18:29.769 --> 00:18:31.650 meant it. I think I was just... Was your band

good? 400 00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:32.859 Uh. 401 00:18:33.450 --> 00:18:35.690 I think we were pretty good. We've done stuff. I 402 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:38.210 don't know how much to say. I don't know how 403 00:18:38.250 --> 00:18:40.390 much is still available online. 404 00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:43.730 Let's get into this. What was the band called? 405 00:18:44.809 --> 00:18:46.950 Well, we had multiple names. 406 00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:51.230 Our first band at uni was called Smokescreen, which I 407 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:52.609 thought was really cool at the time. 408 00:18:53.609 --> 00:18:56.980 Now, I don't know, looking back, maybe not the coolest thing, 409 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.799 but I did record a solo EP back in 2004, 410 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:05.180 which made X of M single of the week. So 411 00:19:05.309 --> 00:19:08.609 I could play. But the kind of point is, is 412 00:19:08.750 --> 00:19:10.710 I don't think I actually meant it. I think I 413 00:19:10.730 --> 00:19:14.279 was just... Kicking out. Pushing back against my parents to 414 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.910 see what would happen. But the point I wanted to make, 415 00:19:16.930 --> 00:19:19.950 and maybe it was interesting for your audience about parenting, 416 00:19:20.089 --> 00:19:24.039 is that because of that journey for me, which is 417 00:19:24.259 --> 00:19:27.339 I never thought that I was worthy of love unless 418 00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:28.640 I did really, really well. 419 00:19:28.660 --> 00:19:28.759 Yeah. 420 00:19:29.579 --> 00:19:32.140 I've gone the opposite way, which is to basically make 421 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.789 sure that my children know that I love them no 422 00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:38.950 matter what. And I know it sounds obvious, but I 423 00:19:38.970 --> 00:19:42.009 think we talk about this term unconditional love a lot. 424 00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:45.769 I'm not sure it's as common as we think it is, right? 425 00:19:45.910 --> 00:19:48.569 A lot of the time we believe that the love 426 00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:52.049 has conditions attached to it. to it. I think I 427 00:19:52.109 --> 00:19:54.789 believe that, and I love my parents to bits, right? 428 00:19:54.829 --> 00:19:57.730 I'm not blaming them. I think we're all only able 429 00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:01.779 to parent in the way, often the way we were parented, right? 430 00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:04.019 So a lot of the time our parents and us 431 00:20:04.180 --> 00:20:07.140 are just doing what we did and what we received. 432 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.019 And I thought, I do not want my children to 433 00:20:10.099 --> 00:20:14.980 believe that their love for me is conditional on anything. 434 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.400 It's not, I love them for who they are. And 435 00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:19.660 so I think I've gone to the other extreme to 436 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.910 the point where I'm sometimes about their exams. Hey guys, 437 00:20:22.690 --> 00:20:24.630 doesn't

matter. Daddy loves you anyway. You know, and I'm 438 00:20:24.650 --> 00:20:28.190 thinking maybe I've gone to the other extreme here because 439 00:20:28.210 --> 00:20:30.250 I don't want them to feel what I felt basically. 440 00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:33.119 But on the flip side of that, though, that sort 441 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:36.079 of competitiveness that they sort of bred into you through that, 442 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.099 but who got hired, what's their names and that, and 443 00:20:38.140 --> 00:20:41.529 it made you this really competitive guy, that sort of 444 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:44.509 was a fuel that propelled you through your studies and 445 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:48.619 your later career of books and writing. podcast and major 446 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.960 you know a time when podcasting is so competitive you 447 00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:52.140 were like right I've got to make sure I film 448 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:54.339 it get it out there and it's a huge podcast 449 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:56.799 like my mother-in-law's obsessed with it she listens to it 450 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:58.460 every night when she goes to sleep it's a massive 451 00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:00.039 deal you've and now. 452 00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:02.029 It does send people to sleep that's true I can 453 00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:05.029 see why I know you guys are the comedians. 454 00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:06.569 But I'm I know you guys I'm trying I'm trying 455 00:21:07.269 --> 00:21:08.529 I'm trying to have a bit of comedy from my 456 00:21:08.569 --> 00:21:09.309 side if I can. 457 00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:11.470 She said you spoke too fast. I found out that 458 00:21:11.490 --> 00:21:14.230 you was on times two speed on her phone. She 459 00:21:14.259 --> 00:21:16.059 was like, I love him, but he speaks so fast. 460 00:21:16.099 --> 00:21:17.680 And I was like, he's not a fast speaker. He's 461 00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:18.740 quite measured. 462 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:20.069 Anyway, so I changed it. 463 00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:23.220 But so that fuel of that competitiveness got you to 464 00:21:23.259 --> 00:21:25.240 a position where you've been offered to be a professor 465 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.089 at this uni. It means that you can take a 466 00:21:27.130 --> 00:21:29.529 step back from your doctor duties to do your books 467 00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:31.329 and your podcasts and spend more time with your kids. 468 00:21:32.009 --> 00:21:33.970 Without that fuel to be competitive, do you think you 469 00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:36.609 would have got yourself in a successful position... in order 470 00:21:36.670 --> 00:21:37.690 to have options? 471 00:21:37.710 --> 00:21:42.339 It's a brilliant question and something I think about a lot. 472 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.240 And I've explored this in my new book, actually, a 473 00:21:45.339 --> 00:21:50.579 lot about this whole idea that things happen for a reason, right? 474 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:53.880 And ultimately, who we are today is made up from 475 00:21:54.099 --> 00:21:57.099 every single experience that we've ever had. It just is. 476 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.660 And if I didn't have that, if I was, if 477 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:06.240 I believed as a kid that my self-worth was not 478 00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:13.369 dependent on achievement, would I have, in adverse commas, achieved 479 00:22:13.569 --> 00:22:19.450 what I've achieved today? Probably not, I'm guessing, but maybe 480 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:21.670 I would have been happier at an early age. Maybe not. 481 00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:26.529 It's that sliding doors thing. I will never know. But 482 00:22:26.569 --> 00:22:29.990 what's really interesting, if I reflect on that through the 483 00:22:30.029 --> 00:22:34.279 lens of my experience of parenting... I do park run 484 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.980 pretty often on Saturday morning with my boy, who's now 14. 485 00:22:36.980 --> 00:22:38.700 And we've been doing it on and off since he was, 486 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.200 I don't know, six or seven. So it's a really 487 00:22:41.259 --> 00:22:44.380 fun thing that we do on Saturday mornings together. And 488 00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:49.819 what I've noticed is, which is, it hasn't confused me, 489 00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:54.980 but it's got me thinking a lot. He's a competent athlete, right? 490 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.039 But he just wouldn't push himself at the end to 491 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:01.680 beat someone. When I was that age, if I could 492 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:05.450 beat someone, I would literally go through the pain barrier 493 00:23:05.789 --> 00:23:08.690 because it mattered that much that I was ahead of someone. 494 00:23:09.369 --> 00:23:11.349 And then we were like about a year ago, I 495 00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:13.849 was like, I think you can take him, son. So yeah, 496 00:23:13.950 --> 00:23:16.170 I'm quite enjoying this at the moment. Actually, I'm good. 497 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.680 And I thought about that. I thought, well, actually, maybe... 498 00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:25.289 maybe he's got it right. Maybe, you know, time will tell, 499 00:23:25.769 --> 00:23:28.589 but why do you need to push it on a 500 00:23:28.609 --> 00:23:31.049 Saturday morning when you're enjoying your run to prove something 501 00:23:31.109 --> 00:23:34.490 about yourself to you? Like, I don't know. I really, 502 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:38.559 I find it so fascinating because, you know, I don't 503 00:23:38.579 --> 00:23:40.200 know if you guys can resonate with this or not, 504 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:44.599 but in my book on happiness, I wrote about this, right? 505 00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:48.980 Where basically I remember being at university. And if you'd 506 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:50.880 had a big night out on the Saturday, what we'd 507 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:53.200 often do is go to somewhere called Diane's Pool Hall 508 00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:56.519

at Edinburgh, which is this old kind of sort of 509 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.470 divey pool hall that had a great jukebox. So we 510 00:23:59.509 --> 00:24:02.829 just loved hanging out on a Sunday afternoon, shooting pool, 511 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:07.359 listening to music. And, you know... I thought of myself 512 00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:09.019 and still do, as a pretty good pool player. 513 00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:09.859 I'm a good pool player. 514 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.200 I'm a very competitive, even with pool. Next time. 515 00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:13.200 You're a serial killer. 516 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:13.759 I love it. 517 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:14.299 Let's do it. 518 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:15.740 Even with pool, come on. 519 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:18.940 But I can still remember being at uni, like at 21, 520 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:22.769 I'd be there. And if I was losing, I would 521 00:24:22.809 --> 00:24:25.450 go into the toilets and I'd give myself a bit 522 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:30.230 of a talking to in the mirror. Honestly, I genuinely would. 523 00:24:30.690 --> 00:24:32.869 Hungover playing pool. 524 00:24:33.109 --> 00:24:35.890 Yeah, and I'd come back out and usually it would 525 00:24:35.950 --> 00:24:38.710 work and I would normally win. Not always, but usually. 526 00:24:38.730 --> 00:24:41.430 But what I figured out is that I didn't actually 527 00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:46.250 enjoy winning. The pain of losing was just too great. 528 00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:49.569 And it's a really messed up relationship with doing so. 529 00:24:49.589 --> 00:24:53.369 Because I remember that for much of my life, I 530 00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:55.839 actually didn't do stuff that I couldn't be the best at. 531 00:24:55.910 --> 00:24:57.319 If I couldn't be really good at it, I wouldn't 532 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:01.480 do it. And it kind of constricts your whole experience 533 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:04.819 of life. And so, going back to your question, Rob, 534 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:08.839 all of this kind of... You asked the question, would 535 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.640 I have achieved this much? I don't know, but maybe 536 00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:17.900 it doesn't matter. Maybe... Maybe we think the achievement is 537 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.019 a good thing, right? So we therefore think, yeah, but 538 00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:22.099 you wouldn't have made it had you not brought up 539 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.180 like that. But maybe it isn't. Maybe actually the happiest 540 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.309 people are the people who have not got podcasts, who 541 00:25:27.349 --> 00:25:29.710 are not on stage, who are just living their life 542 00:25:29.750 --> 00:25:31.269 pretty content with who they are. 543 00:25:31.390 --> 00:25:35.509 I often think that. I think if I didn't have 544 00:25:35.549 --> 00:25:37.509 to prove these things, if I didn't have to do 545 00:25:37.549 --> 00:25:40.609 all these things, it would be a lot easier. But 546 00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:44.089 there's some that I... I need to do these things 547 00:25:44.490 --> 00:25:48.259 to whatever. I couldn't not be doing these things, if 548 00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:51.099 that makes sense. But it would be a lot easier 549 00:25:51.140 --> 00:25:52.519 if I didn't have that drive. 550 00:25:52.859 --> 00:25:55.359 I think it's a balance, right? I think it's good 551 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.019 to be motivated and want to do something which pushes 552 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:03.240 you and actually gets you to have drive, have motivation. 553 00:26:03.269 --> 00:26:07.900 I just think it's this really fine balance where I 554 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:09.839 think it comes to validation for me. So I think 555 00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:12.099 one of the reasons I feel so happy these days 556 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:17.109 is because I no longer need the external validation in 557 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:19.180 the way that I used to. I used to need it. 558 00:26:19.369 --> 00:26:21.549 I used to need people to be able to say, oh, yeah, 559 00:26:21.609 --> 00:26:25.150 that was really good. I generally don't need that anymore. 560 00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:26.849 I validate myself now. 561 00:26:26.869 --> 00:26:30.559 Can I ask what the turning point was for you? 562 00:26:30.579 --> 00:26:32.019 Because we know what you were before and how you 563 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:33.059 feel now. Was it something that. 564 00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:38.000 Look, I think there's been a process of multiple things. 565 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:40.079 I think being a parent has been a huge part 566 00:26:40.099 --> 00:26:42.700 of this, right? Honestly, because being a parent just changes you. 567 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.180 You know, you can't be as focused on yourself because 568 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.490 there's another person or two people or three, however many 569 00:26:48.509 --> 00:26:50.430 kids you have, who suddenly look up to you and 570 00:26:50.470 --> 00:26:55.019 rely on you, right? admire you and sort of start 571 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.220 copying your behaviors right which is a big it's a 572 00:26:58.220 --> 00:27:00.480 big thing for me to actually start sorting myself out 573 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.509 was hey wrong and you've got a pretty vicious negative 574 00:27:03.549 --> 00:27:06.470 inner voice if you don't sort this out what kind 575 00:27:06.509 --> 00:27:08.289 of inner voice do you think they're going to pick 576 00:27:08.390 --> 00:27:10.990 up and then have when they're adults so that was 577 00:27:11.029 --> 00:27:14.329 a huge motivation for me but you know guys I 578 00:27:14.349 --> 00:27:16.490 don't know how relatable this is at all right but 579 00:27:17.130 --> 00:27:21.190 honestly I remember I remember um I remember this moment 580 00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:23.670 quite well. So my first book, The Four Pillar Plan, 581 00:27:23.690 --> 00:27:26.829 came out in end of 2017. First

time I had 582 00:27:26.849 --> 00:27:30.950 a book out, right? And to be clear, multiple things 583 00:27:30.990 --> 00:27:33.930 can be true. I deeply care about people. I'm deeply 584 00:27:34.009 --> 00:27:37.339 passionate about trying to help people. At the same time, 585 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:40.069 I think I really was driven a lot or in 586 00:27:40.150 --> 00:27:42.930 part by external validation. It doesn't mean I didn't care 587 00:27:42.970 --> 00:27:45.190 about people, I did, and I had a need for 588 00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:50.869 external validation. And I can remember in the end of 2017, 589 00:27:50.869 --> 00:27:53.549 I'm on a WhatsApp group with my close uni mates, 590 00:27:53.829 --> 00:27:55.630 the ones who I used to play pool with in 591 00:27:55.650 --> 00:27:59.410 Diane's pool hall, right? And it was that exciting. And we, 592 00:27:59.430 --> 00:28:01.390 you know, the book was sitting at about number seven 593 00:28:01.539 --> 00:28:03.940 in the charts, right? And Joe Witts was at number 594 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:05.940 one and it kept going up and up and up. 595 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:09.000 And like on New Year's Eve, it hit the top spot, right? 596 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.140 And we were all like, you know, we're all on 597 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:13.980 our little WhatsApp group, you know, celebrating and it felt really, 598 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:19.079 really great, right? The year after my second book comes out, 599 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.940 and again, I almost feel a bit embarrassed telling this 600 00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:25.259 story because it's like, how relatable is this? Oh, poor you, 601 00:28:25.700 --> 00:28:27.680 you had another number one book, right? But I think 602 00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:32.299 the message behind it is actually quite important. The second 603 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:34.269 book also gets the number one, but it took a 604 00:28:34.289 --> 00:28:36.750 bit longer. I was like, oh, cool. It felt good, 605 00:28:36.849 --> 00:28:40.190 but not as good as the first time. The third 606 00:28:40.210 --> 00:28:42.190 book the year after, Feel Better in Five comes out, 607 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:46.059 And it still gets there, but it takes about 10 608 00:28:46.059 --> 00:28:48.319 days or two weeks to get there. And I remember 609 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.519 at that time thinking, I'm not even happy. I'm just relieved. 610 00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:57.329 I thought, this is messed up, right? 10 years ago, 611 00:28:57.349 --> 00:28:59.150 if someone had told you you'd ever write one book, 612 00:28:59.190 --> 00:29:01.410 you'd be like, no way. I'll be an author one day. 613 00:29:01.970 --> 00:29:03.410 Not only have I written that one book. 614 00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:06.109 Well, the lead singer from Smokescreen, the guy with the ponytail, 615 00:29:06.150 --> 00:29:07.509 showered himself in the mirror. 616 00:29:07.250 --> 00:29:07.809 At the pool hall. 617 00:29:07.829 --> 00:29:08.509 That guy. 618 00:29:08.569 --> 00:29:08.829 Yeah. 619 00:29:09.190 --> 00:29:13.019 Exactly. But it's like, and that's when I first realised, oh, 620 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.660 this is a con. This is literally a con. This 621 00:29:15.740 --> 00:29:18.859 is a myth. You better sort yourself out. 622 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.480 Enough's never enough if you've got low self-worth, essentially, and 623 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.329 it comes from external validation. And whether it's a book 624 00:29:25.470 --> 00:29:27.910 or whatever, or a job promotion, whatever it is, it 625 00:29:27.930 --> 00:29:28.720 will keep going up. 626 00:29:29.470 --> 00:29:31.309 It will keep going up. And to the point where 627 00:29:31.349 --> 00:29:34.490 these days, I believe the biggest disease in society is 628 00:29:34.579 --> 00:29:38.480 not a cold or a skin problem or cancer. And 629 00:29:38.529 --> 00:29:42.299 I say that with respect The biggest disease is the 630 00:29:42.339 --> 00:29:48.240 disease of more, more money, more followers, more downloads, more holidays. 631 00:29:49.180 --> 00:29:53.200 We think that's going to make us happy. I'm not 632 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.009 trying to trivialize people who are struggling to put food 633 00:29:56.029 --> 00:29:58.450 on their table and heat their houses. Genuinely, that is 634 00:29:58.509 --> 00:29:59.289 an issue, right? 635 00:29:59.309 --> 00:29:59.390 Yeah. 636 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:02.630 But once you have those basic needs, Matt, I know 637 00:30:02.670 --> 00:30:05.589 it's a cliche, but I really believe it's true, is 638 00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:11.539 that more money and more things and more achievements, once 639 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:14.720 you've had enough, it's not going to make you happier 640 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:16.839 for most people. Now, I think you can have it 641 00:30:17.539 --> 00:30:20.160 as long as you've got a good relationship with yourself. 642 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:23.140 And that's why, like, genuinely, this new book, Make Change 643 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:24.829 at Last, one of the things I'm proudest of about 644 00:30:24.869 --> 00:30:27.009 that book is I actually think it's going to help 645 00:30:27.049 --> 00:30:30.259 people understand the How do you have a balance of both? 646 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.680 How can I be successful in the modern world and 647 00:30:33.700 --> 00:30:37.390 at the same time, like myself, be a good parent, 648 00:30:37.509 --> 00:30:41.069 be a good partner, and not have my self-worth dependent 649 00:30:41.130 --> 00:30:41.529 on others? 650 00:30:42.829 --> 00:30:46.400 On parenting, one thing that a lot of parents are 651 00:30:46.420 --> 00:30:48.220 concerned about, this is a bit of a term, but 652 00:30:48.299 --> 00:30:53.089 is mobile phones. and screens and all that kind of thing. 653 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:56.079 And that likes and followers, because even for adults, that's 654 00:30:56.099 -->

00:30:58.299 hard to manage. But for teenagers, we'll put up a 655 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.319 photo of them at their birthday. 656 00:31:00.339 --> 00:31:02.160 I'm fully aware. I'm totally addicted. 657 00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:04.519 My daughter gave me a note going, oh, I'm nervous 658 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:06.180 and excited for my party, but I'm worried no one 659 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:09.509 will turn up. But then as social media grows and 660 00:31:09.529 --> 00:31:11.589 they get a phone, I imagine that's... How are you 661 00:31:11.609 --> 00:31:14.170 dealing with that with your teenagers of likes and followers 662 00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:15.009 and things like that? 663 00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:17.849 So I believe that. 664 00:31:20.589 --> 00:31:25.369 Children and technology, the early introduction of smartphones into our 665 00:31:25.430 --> 00:31:29.759 children's lives, I believe is the most urgent public health 666 00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:31.380 issue we have across society. 667 00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:32.740 I think it's that serious. They banned it in Australia, 668 00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:34.339 haven't they? Under-16s aren't allowed on social media. 669 00:31:34.460 --> 00:31:37.140 Well, as we are having this conversation, and I know 670 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.819 this will come out after this, but on Wednesday and 671 00:31:39.859 --> 00:31:42.299 Thursday night this week on Channel 4 at 8pm, I'm 672 00:31:42.339 --> 00:31:44.640 involved with a documentary where we look to exactly this. 673 00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:46.059 It's going to air in literally two days. 674 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:46.480 Oh, brilliant. 675 00:31:47.009 --> 00:31:51.069 It is so, so powerful, right? So me alongside Matt 676 00:31:51.089 --> 00:31:54.650 and Emma Willis, we went to a school, Stanway School 677 00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:58.910 in the south of England. Is that in Colchester? Colchester, yeah. 678 00:31:58.950 --> 00:32:02.039 That's where Damon Albarn and Graham Coxon from Blur went to. Sorry, 679 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:03.259 that's such a boring fact. 680 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:03.700 I didn't know. 681 00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:05.799 They're not up on the wall, surprisingly. You'd think they'd 682 00:32:05.819 --> 00:32:06.740 be up on the wall when we went. 683 00:32:06.779 --> 00:32:09.240 There we go. Sorry, I'm so boring. 684 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:09.759 No, you're not. 685 00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:11.660 That's good knowledge, actually. 686 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.460 You forgot about your skin in everything. 687 00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:18.039 LAUGHTER But we basically did an experiment, right? 688 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:21.079 That is too much information. That's good knowledge. 689 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:25.299 That's really good knowledge. We basically went and did this experiment, 690 00:32:25.339 --> 00:32:29.009 which has never been done before. 21 days, these year rates, 691 00:32:29.089 --> 00:32:33.309 so 12-year-olds and 13-year-olds gave up all technology for 21 days, 692 00:32:33.529 --> 00:32:34.730 not just smartphones. 693 00:32:34.809 --> 00:32:35.670 What does that cover? 694 00:32:35.869 --> 00:32:42.289 TV? No, it didn't cover TV. So smartphones, laptops, gaming devices, 695 00:32:42.430 --> 00:32:46.130 and tablets, right? And with the University of York, we 696 00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.420 measured everything. And it will blow your mind when it 697 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.920 comes out this week, I promise you. And when this 698 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:54.119 comes out, people haven't seen it, go and watch it online. 699 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:54.880 When will this go out? 700 00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:56.680 Can we ask what the result is? Because all this 701 00:32:56.700 --> 00:32:57.319 will go out after the TV show. 702 00:32:57.339 --> 00:32:58.539 Yeah, I can tell you the results now. I can 703 00:32:58.559 --> 00:32:59.339 tell you the results now. 704 00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:00.380 So basically after 21 days. 705 00:33:02.849 --> 00:33:05.339 The things that they, what was everyone concerned about beforehand? 706 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.440 They were all concerned, oh, you know, what am I 707 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.180 going to do? Like, I'm going to be left out. 708 00:33:09.220 --> 00:33:12.769 I'm going to feel socially less connected, right? Top line 709 00:33:12.809 --> 00:33:16.990 results after 21 days. They all, okay, so they all 710 00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:18.630 struggled for the first two or three days. They went 711 00:33:18.650 --> 00:33:20.910 through a kind of withdrawal, which I think. 712 00:33:20.829 --> 00:33:21.089 Says a lot. 713 00:33:21.109 --> 00:33:23.529 How old are these kids, sorry, that you're- 12 year old, 714 00:33:23.529 --> 00:33:26.890 12 and 13, right? So it reminded me a bit 715 00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:30.170 of when people go off sugar or they go off alcohol, 716 00:33:30.230 --> 00:33:32.109 which is I think quite telling in and of itself. 717 00:33:32.809 --> 00:33:35.470 Once they'd got through the withdrawal, most of them actually 718 00:33:35.490 --> 00:33:39.299 were loving it. And after 21 days, anxiety and depression 719 00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:44.700 significantly better. They felt more socially connected than the less, 720 00:33:44.779 --> 00:33:46.859 which is really interesting because that's what they were scared 721 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:49.299 about because what were they doing? They were actually having 722 00:33:49.339 --> 00:33:52.599 more real world interactions where they were present and not 723 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:56.569 all together, but distracted by their screens. And then check 724 00:33:56.609 --> 00:33:58.650 this out. And I think this is probably the most 725 00:33:58.710 --> 00:34:02.509 striking of all the findings. They were sleeping for one 726 00:34:02.730 --> 00:34:07.849 hour extra per night. One hour, right? Which is huge, 727 00:34:08.050 --> 00:34:11.880 especially

at that age. Because when you don't sleep, You're 728 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:15.719 more emotionally reactive. You're less able to resist temptation. You're 729 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:18.559 more anxious. Your mood goes down. You eat more food. 730 00:34:18.579 --> 00:34:21.429 You feel worse about yourself and the world around you. 731 00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:25.429 And so I think this is a massive, massive issue. 732 00:34:25.449 --> 00:34:27.670 This is not about blame, right? I think every parent 733 00:34:28.210 --> 00:34:30.389 is trying to do the best that they can. But 734 00:34:30.409 --> 00:34:34.679 I think we've kind of allowed this technology to insidiously 735 00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:37.059 creep in to our children's lives. 736 00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:40.940 Do you think it needs to be, because obviously you 737 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.780 get this situation. So my kids are, we're not there 738 00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:47.369 yet because they're three and seven. But you get this 739 00:34:47.409 --> 00:34:51.809 situation where, you know, I've heard people say what I'm 740 00:34:51.829 --> 00:34:53.130 going to do when we get to secondary school. All 741 00:34:53.150 --> 00:34:55.150 the parents are going to agree and we're not. But 742 00:34:55.170 --> 00:34:58.239 that's obviously a very difficult thing, you know. So it's 743 00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:00.369 going to come down to a thing of. your child 744 00:35:00.389 --> 00:35:02.829 saying that child's got it, I haven't got it or whatever. 745 00:35:02.849 --> 00:35:05.150 So what have you agreed to not until secondary school? 746 00:35:05.750 --> 00:35:07.289 No, I haven't done anything. But what I mean is 747 00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:10.389 I've heard parents say, but it needs to go to 748 00:35:10.409 --> 00:35:11.530 a governmental level. 749 00:35:11.869 --> 00:35:15.860 Yeah, so this is not, it's too hard for individuals 750 00:35:15.909 --> 00:35:20.019 to do this, individual parents, because peer pressure is massive. 751 00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:23.360 And what tends to happen with most people is a 752 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:25.400 lot of people don't really want their kids to have 753 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.460 these devices that early. but the kids will say everyone 754 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.320 else has got them, right? Everyone else has got them. 755 00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:32.719 And you don't want your child to be a social outcast, right? 756 00:35:32.780 --> 00:35:37.610 So the solution has to come from multiple different areas, right? 757 00:35:38.309 --> 00:35:41.469 I definitely think all schools should be not allowing smartphones 758 00:35:41.510 --> 00:35:43.300 to be used during the school day. 759 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.579 I don't think that's that controversial. 760 00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:49.690 It's not. There's some schools... So this is what the 761 00:35:49.710 --> 00:35:52.289 Stanley School actually did, although I think they've now changed 762 00:35:52.349 --> 00:35:54.010 it based upon the results. They said, keep it in 763 00:35:54.050 --> 00:35:57.230 your bags, keep it in your pockets. If we see 764 00:35:57.250 --> 00:36:00.170 you using it in a day, I'll be confiscated. They 765 00:36:00.210 --> 00:36:02.809 all use it in the day. You know what it's like. 766 00:36:02.829 --> 00:36:04.869 We all remember what it's like being a kid. So 767 00:36:05.250 --> 00:36:08.469 I think phones are here and they're here to stay, right? 768 00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:11.780 A lot of schools have this thing where you go in, 769 00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:14.659 you give your phone in, it's locked away, you get 770 00:36:14.699 --> 00:36:15.960 it back at the end of the day. I think 771 00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:19.139 that's a very simple, easy win that all schools can 772 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:19.880 implement immediately. 773 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:21.719 When you go and see American comedians do it a lot, 774 00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:24.159 they give you those little pouches where they seal them 775 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:25.559 and then you can put it in your bag and 776 00:36:25.579 --> 00:36:27.570 then you can't get it out at all and then 777 00:36:27.590 --> 00:36:29.889 they can seal it on the way out. They do 778 00:36:29.909 --> 00:36:32.650 that for concerts. You can easily do that in your 779 00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:33.130 form room. 780 00:36:33.329 --> 00:36:37.769 You go in... Yeah, and I honestly think by the time, Josh, 781 00:36:37.829 --> 00:36:40.610 your kids are older, this situation will have been resolved. 782 00:36:40.750 --> 00:36:45.219 That's what I'm hopeful about. I've got a nine-year-old. Shit, 783 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:46.280 could be on the cusp. 784 00:36:46.980 --> 00:36:49.500 Well, okay, so hold on. Do I think the government 785 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.469 needs to do something? Absolutely. This reminds me of the 786 00:36:52.530 --> 00:36:57.269 junk food industry for years, right? Yeah, yeah. In every 787 00:36:57.349 --> 00:36:59.369 single one of my books, I think there's a case 788 00:36:59.409 --> 00:37:02.409 study of someone who's been negatively affected by social media. 789 00:37:03.010 --> 00:37:06.099 Because I've seen it 10 years ago, I saw a 790 00:37:06.099 --> 00:37:09.139 16-year-old child who'd harmed himself at the weekend in the 791 00:37:09.219 --> 00:37:10.840 A & E. They came to see me on the Monday. 792 00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:15.199 And without going into the whole case story, there's no 793 00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:17.760 question that it was his use of social media that 794 00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:20.699 led to that point. And actually by helping him get 795 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.719 off those devices over a period of two or three months, 796 00:37:24.550 --> 00:37:28.710 his depression almost vanished, right? So I've seen it firsthand. 797 00:37:28.769 --> 00:37:31.599 And I think the government, honestly, I don't really get 798

00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:36.409 that political, but I think they've been shocking all of them, right? Honestly, 799 00:37:36.429 --> 00:37:38.570 they're sort of saying, oh, the tech companies, we want 800 00:37:38.610 --> 00:37:43.250 better rules. Expecting the tech companies to actually police this 801 00:37:43.829 --> 00:37:47.849 is ridiculous. You'll see on the show on Wednesday, TikTok 802 00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:51.909 released a statement. It's the most bland, ridiculous statement I've 803 00:37:51.949 --> 00:37:55.139 ever seen that their PR company wrote for them. TikTok 804 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:57.639 is the most popular social media platform in this country 805 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.119 between four And I think 13 or 14, and they're 806 00:38:01.139 --> 00:38:03.940 still maintaining that there are strict things. So you can't 807 00:38:03.980 --> 00:38:07.320 get on before you're 13, which is a complete joke, right? 808 00:38:07.460 --> 00:38:11.320 The government have to tell these guys what is acceptable, 809 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:14.550 what is not acceptable. It's just like with junk food. 810 00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:20.489 If you're expecting Haribo to police... I mean, they're not 811 00:38:20.510 --> 00:38:22.389 going to do it because they're... And I'm not blaming 812 00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:23.869 them for not doing it. Well, of course, it's their business. 813 00:38:24.190 --> 00:38:25.369 It's their business, right? 814 00:38:25.489 --> 00:38:27.650 Which is why there's governments that do this to protect 815 00:38:27.670 --> 00:38:29.889 the country. It's like saying. 816 00:38:30.150 --> 00:38:32.170 It's like if I was to bring in. 817 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.710 I'll only sell half full theatres because it'll help people 818 00:38:38.750 --> 00:38:39.449 get to the toilet. 819 00:38:39.670 --> 00:38:41.730 I'm not going to do that because it's your business. 820 00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:43.269 Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you need quarter full. 821 00:38:43.389 --> 00:38:44.349 Yeah, exactly. 822 00:38:44.449 --> 00:38:46.960 I do sell half full theatres, but that's not intended. 823 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:48.059 It's a bad analogy. 824 00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:51.440 But I think what people don't realise, right, is this 825 00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:55.699 whole idea that We have rules across society to protect 826 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:59.739 our children. Casinos, right? You can't go in when you're 12, right? 827 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.579 You have to wait till you're 18 because we decide 828 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:05.429 that as a society, no, children's wellbeing is important. We 829 00:39:05.469 --> 00:39:08.090 don't allow children at 12 to drink alcohol in the pub. 830 00:39:08.449 --> 00:39:09.750 We go, no, you've got to wait till you're 18, right? 831 00:39:09.869 --> 00:39:12.469 I'd rather my kid have two pints of beer or 832 00:39:12.489 --> 00:39:14.409 wait than fucking be on TikTok at 11, do you 833

00:39:14.429 --> 00:39:14.949 know what I mean? 834 00:39:15.150 --> 00:39:17.909 Well, that's a good point, you know? Because, you know, 835 00:39:17.949 --> 00:39:20.900 just remember what it was like as a child. At 12, 13, 14, 836 00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:23.800 you want to fit in. 837 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:27.650 I'm so glad I didn't grow up on social media. 838 00:39:27.929 --> 00:39:29.469 I struggle with social media, you know. 839 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:33.860 Personally, and this is a little controversial, but... Go for it. 840 00:39:33.929 --> 00:39:35.469 Just ban kids. 841 00:39:35.969 --> 00:39:40.909 Go the other way. Again, I think this comes to, 842 00:39:41.610 --> 00:39:43.550 just to connect this to a previous point, which is 843 00:39:43.570 --> 00:39:46.710 this idea that You know, when you're so dependent on 844 00:39:46.769 --> 00:39:50.150 external validation, like I used to be, you're often scared 845 00:39:50.170 --> 00:39:52.130 about speaking your mind because you don't want to offend people. 846 00:39:52.150 --> 00:39:53.659 You want people to like you and agree with you. 847 00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:56.719 Whereas now that I've kind of mostly dealt with that, 848 00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.539 like I really have, I really feel that, you know what? 849 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.219 I actually quite like myself and how I behave and 850 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:04.199 who I am in the world. I don't need the 851 00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:07.739 validation in the way that I used to. I actually 852 00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:10.000 don't think social media should be allowed probably before 18. 853 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.639 I think we're going to see data in the next 854 00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:14.989 few years where we go, why on earth did we 855 00:40:15.070 --> 00:40:18.090 let these tech companies decide what's best for our kids? 856 00:40:18.230 --> 00:40:20.650 Why don't we decide what's best for our kids? Frankly, 857 00:40:20.829 --> 00:40:23.010 we struggle as adults with social media. 858 00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:27.789 How is your, what's your relationship with your phone and 859 00:40:27.829 --> 00:40:31.530 social media like? Because mine is terrible and I beat 860 00:40:31.570 --> 00:40:36.920 myself up constantly about it, but I don't know what 861 00:40:36.940 --> 00:40:41.050 I can do really beyond... The only way I manage 862 00:40:41.070 --> 00:40:42.849 to manage my phone is if I just put it 863 00:40:42.869 --> 00:40:44.809 in the other room. And then actually I don't think 864 00:40:44.869 --> 00:40:46.179 about it when I'm not with it. 865 00:40:46.190 --> 00:40:47.139 What if I'm with it? 866 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:47.599 It's here now. 867 00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:49.679 You need it for work though, to a point in 868 00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:52.239 our job. But then that can sometimes be a lazy excuse. 869 00:40:52.539 --> 00:40:53.360 Yeah. 870 00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:56.880 There's a couple of really important points there, right? So firstly... 871 00:40:56.920 --> 00:40:59.460 We have to understand that it's not a human failing. 872 00:40:59.500 --> 00:41:01.599 It's not a failing of you. It's not a failing 873 00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:04.940 of your children. These things are designed to be addictive 874 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:08.460 and hijack your attention, right? So there is, you know, 875 00:41:08.739 --> 00:41:11.019 we have to be a bit compassionate to ourselves and go, 876 00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:14.880 it's not like we have a moral problem or failing 877 00:41:14.929 --> 00:41:17.949 in ourselves. These things are really, really difficult. Okay, so 878 00:41:18.030 --> 00:41:19.829 what can we do? You asked me what was my 879 00:41:19.869 --> 00:41:23.429 relationship like. You know, I used to overuse it like everyone, right? 880 00:41:23.469 --> 00:41:27.969 And I definitely can fall into that trap again, unless 881 00:41:27.989 --> 00:41:31.769 I'm really careful. My daughter, when she was four, I 882 00:41:31.809 --> 00:41:34.730 think gave me one of the most powerful lessons in this, right? 883 00:41:34.750 --> 00:41:38.010 It was a Sunday and well, she's 12 now, so 884 00:41:38.030 --> 00:41:39.840 it's about eight years ago, right? It was a Sunday. 885 00:41:39.940 --> 00:41:42.769 And I remember, I don't know, This tells you, I 886 00:41:42.789 --> 00:41:45.769 can't remember what was going on online, but it felt 887 00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:48.559 really important to me on that Sunday. And I was 888 00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:50.880 playing with her in our living room, but I kept, 889 00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:52.559 so I've always had this thing that I don't want 890 00:41:52.579 --> 00:41:54.440 to be on the phone much around my children. So 891 00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:58.159 I'm actually not on it much around them because I 892 00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:01.239 don't want to give them the signal that, this thing 893 00:42:01.300 --> 00:42:04.360 is more important than you. I'm not blaming anyone who does, right, 894 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:06.320 to be really clear. I'm just saying it's something I've 895 00:42:06.380 --> 00:42:09.099 tried not to do. But what I did instead is 896 00:42:09.460 --> 00:42:11.079 I was playing with her. Then every few minutes, I'd 897 00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:14.030 just nip out into the kitchen and, you know, I'd 898 00:42:14.050 --> 00:42:16.289 just have a little cheeky look. Then I'd go back 899 00:42:16.329 --> 00:42:18.829 and play with her. And then at one point, she said, hey, Daddy, 900 00:42:19.670 --> 00:42:20.909 you're not really here, are you? 901 00:42:22.289 --> 00:42:24.409 Oh, God. That would destroy me. 902 00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:27.090 It did. It was like a dagger into my heart. 903 00:42:27.210 --> 00:42:27.800 And I thought. 904 00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:30.829 You should have filmed your reaction. It would have gone. 905 00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:32.809 Viral. 906 00:42:32.829 --> 00:42:33.949 Just

heard saying that. 907 00:42:33.989 --> 00:42:34.690 Then I watched it. 908 00:42:34.710 --> 00:42:37.150 That would be great. On TikTok. They had TikTok eight 909 00:42:37.190 --> 00:42:37.510 years ago. 910 00:42:37.630 --> 00:42:38.510 I don't know if they did, actually. 911 00:42:38.530 --> 00:42:39.320 Could have been the first one. 912 00:42:39.889 --> 00:42:43.679 It could have been the first viral video on TikTok. Sorry. 913 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.780 I don't know if you guys agree with this or not, 914 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.360 but I think children teach us so much more than 915 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.030 we teach them. Totally. 916 00:42:51.570 --> 00:42:55.429 My entire childhood has been reflected back at me as 917 00:42:55.489 --> 00:42:57.670 my children have got older, where I've looked at it 918 00:42:57.710 --> 00:42:59.210 and decided on what my approach would be. 919 00:42:59.269 --> 00:43:01.349 How was I parented at that point? 920 00:43:01.670 --> 00:43:03.530 And then you start to find out more about yourself 921 00:43:03.969 --> 00:43:06.170 because you look back on that period of your life 922 00:43:06.289 --> 00:43:09.059 and when you were with your kids. 100%, that's what 923 00:43:09.099 --> 00:43:10.030 I've noticed. 924 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.429 I completely agree. And also, I have a lot... Not 925 00:43:13.449 --> 00:43:15.889 that I didn't respect my parents at all. I've always 926 00:43:15.929 --> 00:43:17.670 respected them, but I feel now. 927 00:43:17.690 --> 00:43:18.989 Well, you cut your hair and became a doctor, so 928 00:43:19.030 --> 00:43:19.940 you definitely did respect them. 929 00:43:20.429 --> 00:43:22.920 I did, but I also feel now I have such 930 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:26.440 a deeper appreciation for what they did for me. I'm like, oh, wow. 931 00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:30.559 You don't really realize until you're a parent yourself. You're like, oh, 932 00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:33.019 you juggled work and this and you took us here 933 00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:34.119 on a holiday and you did. 934 00:43:34.659 --> 00:43:35.000 Oh, wow. 935 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:35.239 Yeah. 936 00:43:35.260 --> 00:43:38.139 Thanks, guys. I really appreciate that. That must have been really, 937 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:40.619 really hard. But so my daughter, that was a very 938 00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:45.730 powerful lesson for me. And you said, Josh, something really important. 939 00:43:45.750 --> 00:43:49.050 If you keep it in another room. That is game changing. 940 00:43:49.389 --> 00:43:51.750 It really is. One of the most important rules about 941 00:43:51.789 --> 00:43:55.590 human behavior is if you make something easy, we will 942 00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:59.320 do it. It's how all business operates. When Amazon went 943 00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:02.400 to one click ordering about 10 years ago or so, 944 00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:06.469 estimates say their profits went up by $ 300 million a 945 00:44:06.730

--> 00:44:08.269 year from that one move. 946 00:44:08.849 --> 00:44:09.050 Why? 947 00:44:09.070 --> 00:44:12.269 Because they made it easy. There was four or five 948 00:44:12.329 --> 00:44:16.110 steps to take. confirm order, put in your card details, 949 00:44:16.550 --> 00:44:19.820 et cetera, et cetera. Every single step is a reason 950 00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:22.320 to pull out and not make the purchase. Whereas now 951 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:26.019 you blink and something's arriving later that evening, right? It's 952 00:44:26.059 --> 00:44:29.039 that easy. You do it. That's why Netflix and YouTube 953 00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.139 run one video into the next. It's not out of 954 00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:33.619 the goodness of their hearts. It's because if they make 955 00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:35.760 it easy, you'll do it. So we can apply the 956 00:44:35.820 --> 00:44:39.019 same principle when it comes to our phone. Simply putting 957 00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:43.389 it in a different room actually will dramatically reduce your usage. 958 00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:46.000 That's one thing you can do. I think also we 959 00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:49.190 need to develop some cultural norms around phone use. So 960 00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:52.170 we have that with other things, right? So 20 years ago, 961 00:44:52.190 --> 00:44:54.369 you didn't sit at the dinner table with your family 962 00:44:54.409 --> 00:44:57.809 and bring the landline there, you know? It was kind 963 00:44:57.829 --> 00:45:00.269 of accepted that, you know- Put a newspaper out, you'd 964 00:45:00.289 --> 00:45:02.590 be like, put that away, we're having dinner, you know? Yeah, 965 00:45:02.659 --> 00:45:04.260 whereas it seems to be like, we've got a phone 966 00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:06.960 which is much more than a landline or a newspaper. 967 00:45:06.980 --> 00:45:10.059 It's literally got anything. You know, there's research showing us 968 00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.940 that when a phone is around, we smile 30% less. 969 00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:14.760 Yeah. Right. 970 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:18.139 That's how, because the problem is that your brain knows 971 00:45:18.309 --> 00:45:21.829 on the other side of this thing is anything you 972 00:45:21.869 --> 00:45:26.730 could possibly want. Exactly. So I think we need some rules. 973 00:45:26.969 --> 00:45:30.869 I think some good principles in family households are at 974 00:45:30.909 --> 00:45:36.579 the dinner table. I think they should be technology free areas. Again, 975 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:38.260 I don't like to prescribe to people what they should 976 00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:41.579 be doing. I'm sharing this in case it's useful. An 977 00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:45.679 electric carving knife. Electric carving knife. I would permit that. 978 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:50.630 That's true. As long as there's something to carve. Yeah, 979 00:45:50.650 --> 00:45:52.409 that's mental if there's something to carve. 980 00:45:52.429 --> 00:45:54.030 Yeah, not just for fun. What are you doing, Dad? 981 00:45:55.530 --> 00:45:56.130 What about your kids? 982 00:45:56.170 --> 00:45:58.110 What are the rules on social media? Are they allowed 983 00:45:58.130 --> 00:45:59.429 social media? Have they got phones? 984 00:46:00.010 --> 00:46:05.909 So, look, at 14 and 12... They're not on social media, right? 985 00:46:06.289 --> 00:46:08.550 And I think my son might be the only kid 986 00:46:08.570 --> 00:46:12.880 in his year who's not on Snapchat. Now, I have 987 00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:15.500 a very open dialogue with him about this. I'll tell 988 00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:20.670 you my problem is I have seen multiple suicidal teenagers 989 00:46:20.730 --> 00:46:24.710 over the past 10 years who I'm strongly against. suspect 990 00:46:24.769 --> 00:46:27.010 social media was a huge part of it. I cannot 991 00:46:27.090 --> 00:46:29.090 do that to my children knowing that. 992 00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:31.380 Is he okay with it or is he trying to. 993 00:46:31.489 --> 00:46:35.179 Look, so my wife and I have multiple conversations with 994 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:39.000 him on this. I genuinely think he is unless he's 995 00:46:39.139 --> 00:46:42.639 saying what we want to hear and not telling us, right? 996 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.820 But we do have an open dialogue and I do say, son, 997 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:48.920 if you're not happy or please do share it with 998 00:46:48.980 --> 00:46:51.980 us because we want to know that. I don't think 999 00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:53.900 he is. So I'll tell you what my kids have. 1000 00:46:53.940 --> 00:46:57.989 They've got, they've got, they do have smartphones, but this is, 1001 00:46:58.030 --> 00:46:59.530 I think the conversation we're not having. 1002 00:46:59.590 --> 00:46:59.829 Right. 1003 00:47:00.489 --> 00:47:03.090 So I didn't say my daughter's 12. 1004 00:47:03.090 --> 00:47:03.269 Right. 1005 00:47:03.409 --> 00:47:06.130 I did not. She's in year seven. So first, you know, 1006 00:47:06.489 --> 00:47:08.309 I still have to get it into old money, but 1007 00:47:08.389 --> 00:47:11.320 you know, first year at high school basically is, is 1008 00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:14.599 what she's now in. She did not have a phone 1009 00:47:14.619 --> 00:47:17.460 until the first year. And I, over the summer, I 1010 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.460 hated it. I was like, She kept saying, daddy, I'm 1011 00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:23.059 going to be the only kid without one. I'm like, yeah, darling, 1012 00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:24.739 but you know, can we, so I got them a 1013 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:27.199 whole series of dumb phones. I got them the light phone. 1014 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.820 I went through everything and she's like, daddy, everyone's going 1015 00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:32.639 to laugh at me. They've all got the latest smartphones. 1016 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:36.030 So I said, okay, what is it you want this for? 1017 00:47:36.230 -->

00:47:40.230 She goes, well, everyone messages on these phones and there's 1018 00:47:40.289 --> 00:47:43.050 WhatsApp groups. I said, okay, is there anything else you want? 1019 00:47:43.949 --> 00:47:46.030 She said, no. I said, okay, then how about then 1020 00:47:46.050 --> 00:47:49.059 we get one of my old iPhones and and we 1021 00:47:49.099 --> 00:47:52.119 will just put on messages and WhatsApp. 1022 00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:52.619 Yeah. 1023 00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:55.179 And she said, yeah. I said, is there anything else 1024 00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.360 you want? Do you want a camera? No, you want nothing. 1025 00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:01.079 So literally she has got like a six-year-old iPhone. It's 1026 00:48:01.179 --> 00:48:03.179 basically a dumb phone because all you can do on 1027 00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:04.909 it is text and WhatsApp. 1028 00:48:04.929 --> 00:48:07.250 Yeah, because you don't alienate them more where they can't message, 1029 00:48:07.289 --> 00:48:10.010 but then Snapchat and all that's a different kettle of fish. 1030 00:48:10.210 --> 00:48:10.449 Yeah. 1031 00:48:10.530 --> 00:48:14.070 Because on Roblox and stuff they can message on, because 1032 00:48:14.090 --> 00:48:16.329 they'll find a way to message because there's a million 1033 00:48:16.349 --> 00:48:18.150 different things. So if they're on Roblox, like they can 1034 00:48:18.190 --> 00:48:22.119 message- friends in a chat function on that. But yeah, 1035 00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:23.519 you don't want them on full social media, but I 1036 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:25.420 think letting them have WhatsApps are good. 1037 00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:28.719 So look, I think it comes down to an intentional approach. 1038 00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:30.750 And I think, frankly, as adults, we can actually ask 1039 00:48:30.789 --> 00:48:33.369 ourselves the same question. What are the apps on here 1040 00:48:33.389 --> 00:48:35.690 that are enhancing our life and which are the ones 1041 00:48:35.730 --> 00:48:37.610 which are taken away from our life? Because what a 1042 00:48:37.670 --> 00:48:41.320 lot of us do is we just allow these tech 1043 00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:43.239 companies to tell us what to put on them. It's like, yeah, 1044 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:46.300 I'll have all this stuff on them. But you could go, well, actually, 1045 00:48:46.340 --> 00:48:49.980 these two apps, like Google Maps, for example, brilliant, really 1046 00:48:50.019 --> 00:48:52.420 like it, helps me. Or whatever it might be, you 1047 00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:57.699 can choose. So they don't have Safari on their phone, right? 1048 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:02.059 Because I think unrestricted internet access is also a massive problem. 1049 00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:04.599 And guys, wait till you see on Wednesday night the 1050 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:12.710 pornography statistics. It's scary as hell. One in four 11-year-olds 1051 00:49:13.409 --> 00:49:17.369 in the UK have already seen pornography, right? One in four. 1052 00:49:18.230 --> 00:49:19.969 And there's been studies on this. 1053 00:49:20.019 --> 00:49:22.179 Oh yeah, I've balanced it the other way. 1054 00:49:23.099 --> 00:49:23.400 Sorry. 1055 00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:27.980 But the first time a new user goes on one 1056 00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:32.949 of the world's most popular pornographic websites, there is a very, 1057 00:49:33.010 --> 00:49:35.250 very high chance that they are either going to see 1058 00:49:35.570 --> 00:49:42.030 non-consensual sex or violence, right? This is how alarming this 1059 00:49:42.070 --> 00:49:44.789 situation is, right? We're having our kids now are being 1060 00:49:44.849 --> 00:49:49.400 exposed to some pretty graphic and worrying material at a very, 1061 00:49:49.539 --> 00:49:52.900 very young age. Of course, that's going to impact their 1062 00:49:52.940 --> 00:49:54.940 view of intimacy and what it means to be in 1063 00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:57.480 a relationship and stuff. So I kind of think that 1064 00:49:57.900 --> 00:50:00.699 we as a society have to, all of us collectively 1065 00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:03.219 come together and go, okay, enough's enough. Like, what can 1066 00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:05.610 we do here? But I do think the government needs 1067 00:50:05.630 --> 00:50:06.389 to take charge here. 1068 00:50:06.449 --> 00:50:07.349 Do you think it will happen? 1069 00:50:09.380 --> 00:50:11.940 The only way is a governmental way where they can 1070 00:50:11.980 --> 00:50:15.610 put blocks on certain things or, you know, ban kids 1071 00:50:15.849 --> 00:50:16.349 from stuff. 1072 00:50:16.409 --> 00:50:17.530 And it needs to be law, I think. 1073 00:50:18.110 --> 00:50:20.429 The sad thing is, right, on that very first day 1074 00:50:20.449 --> 00:50:23.469 when we were filming, right, the very first day, all 1075 00:50:23.510 --> 00:50:26.329 the children put in their phones and their technology into 1076 00:50:26.389 --> 00:50:29.230 a box in the school, kind of, in one of 1077 00:50:29.250 --> 00:50:32.630 the big rooms. You know, it's a telly. It looks really... cool, 1078 00:50:32.650 --> 00:50:35.150 you see in this glass box all of the devices 1079 00:50:35.190 --> 00:50:38.570 going in. And then that evening, me, Matt, and Emma Willis, 1080 00:50:38.610 --> 00:50:41.500 we had an evening with the parents. And only a 1081 00:50:41.539 --> 00:50:44.179 little bit ultimately makes the edit, right, which we see. 1082 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:47.260 But I tell you, pretty much every parent said to us, 1083 00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:53.150 I feel we've lost our children to their devices. And 1084 00:50:53.170 --> 00:50:55.539 then when you ask them, none of them really want 1085 00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:59.780 their children on those devices. They're just giving them to 1086 00:50:59.860 --> 00:51:02.300 them so they can fit in with everyone around them. 1087 00:51:02.429 --> 00:51:04.070 And I thought, as I went back to the hotel

1088 00:51:04.110 --> 00:51:06.550 that night, I thought, this is ridiculous. Parents say we're 1089 00:51:06.630 --> 00:51:10.190 losing our kids to devices. We don't want them on it. 1090 00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:14.300 It's affecting them negatively. It's affecting their relationships. But we're 1091 00:51:14.380 --> 00:51:17.380 all doing it because we think everyone else is on it. 1092 00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:19.539 I thought, this is madness. We must be able to 1093 00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:21.340 step back and go, wait a minute. If we're not 1094 00:51:21.420 --> 00:51:23.420 wanting this, let's do something about it. 1095 00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:25.300 They just don't want to be left out from smoking. 1096 00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:28.449 So I've given them some cigarettes because everyone's smoking. 1097 00:51:28.469 --> 00:51:30.510 But guys, we don't see it like that, but we 1098 00:51:30.530 --> 00:51:33.389 should do. Yeah, it's the same thing. It really is. 1099 00:51:33.550 --> 00:51:37.409 I think I use my phone in the same way 1100 00:51:37.429 --> 00:51:41.500 that People do smoke in the sense of if I'm stressed, 1101 00:51:41.619 --> 00:51:44.059 it takes me out of the situation. Yeah. If I'm 1102 00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:47.489 in a situation where it's kind of... It's almost... It's 1103 00:51:47.550 --> 00:51:51.190 just a crutch to... Like, if I'm not feeling very good, 1104 00:51:51.369 --> 00:51:52.809 I'll go on my phone a lot more. 1105 00:51:52.849 --> 00:51:55.090 The problem is, though, I find with that, is that 1106 00:51:55.130 --> 00:51:57.900 society's built around... needing a phone so if i want 1107 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:00.099 to go and park my car i could have my 1108 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:03.360 bank card with me and cash and park my car 1109 00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:06.500 and they'll go ring the app or ring the number 1110 00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:09.010 or download the app and i'm like well so i 1111 00:52:09.050 --> 00:52:11.110 have to have a phone to exist now just little 1112 00:52:11.130 --> 00:52:13.489 bits like that is so hard to get around anywhere 1113 00:52:13.510 --> 00:52:16.250 or do stuff so it is like but if they 1114 00:52:16.289 --> 00:52:18.309 can put blocks on stuff i think i don't know 1115 00:52:18.349 --> 00:52:18.869 it's definitely a. 1116 00:52:18.829 --> 00:52:21.219 Governmental level it's a great point it is getting harder 1117 00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:23.320 and harder there's no question so i think for children 1118 00:52:23.340 --> 00:52:24.780 i think we need to be a bit stricter like 1119 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:29.210 we are with alcohol with gambling, with all those kinds 1120 00:52:29.230 --> 00:52:32.210 of things. I think as adults, we all have to 1121 00:52:32.269 --> 00:52:34.659 figure out what are the things that we can do. 1122 00:52:34.929 --> 00:52:36.960 If I bring my, I live in a house, if 1123 00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:41.059 I bring my phone upstairs in the evening, I can't

1124 00:52:41.099 --> 00:52:44.019 resist going on it. So when I'm living my best life, 1125 00:52:44.539 --> 00:52:47.820 the phone stays in the kitchen to charge, right? And 1126 00:52:47.900 --> 00:52:49.820 when the phone stays downstairs in the kitchen to charge, 1127 00:52:50.510 --> 00:52:53.940 like everything's better, like I have better sleep, I'm more chilled. 1128 00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:55.500 I always go, but I need it for my alarm 1129 00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:56.699 as if alarm clocks don't exist. 1130 00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:00.610 I know, that's one of the worst excuses we all make. 1131 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:01.230 It's pathetic. 1132 00:53:01.250 --> 00:53:03.150 You could just get a five foot alarm clock. 1133 00:53:04.570 --> 00:53:06.590 But the other thing is I'm, I'm a bit old school. 1134 00:53:06.650 --> 00:53:09.010 I still got a landline. I don't know if you 1135 00:53:09.050 --> 00:53:09.670 guys have a landline. 1136 00:53:09.989 --> 00:53:10.949 No, no, no. 1137 00:53:10.969 --> 00:53:12.329 You were allowed to say that. Is that, does that 1138 00:53:12.369 --> 00:53:13.230 make sense? 1139 00:53:13.269 --> 00:53:13.949 I'm fascinated. 1140 00:53:13.969 --> 00:53:15.849 You're not going to get canceled, mate. Don't panic. 1141 00:53:16.809 --> 00:53:19.489 So the reason I've got a landline is, is because 1142 00:53:19.530 --> 00:53:21.820 it really helps me with this phone issue, which is 1143 00:53:22.610 --> 00:53:26.679 only my very, only my family, like my mom, my brother, 1144 00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:30.840 and my really close mates have my landline number, which 1145 00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:34.489 basically means I can in the evening, uh, uh, you know, when, 1146 00:53:34.670 --> 00:53:36.969 when I want to, I can switch off this smartphone. 1147 00:53:37.070 --> 00:53:40.719 And I know basically anyone who really needs to get 1148 00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:44.619 me about something important can do. And I tell you, 1149 00:53:44.659 --> 00:53:45.099 it's the. 1150 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:48.420 Other excuse you make to yourself. What if, you know, 1151 00:53:48.579 --> 00:53:50.719 someone I know has a heart attack or whatever, do 1152 00:53:50.739 --> 00:53:51.699 you know what I mean? What are you going to 1153 00:53:51.739 --> 00:53:53.090 do to fucking sort it out? 1154 00:53:53.289 --> 00:53:53.690 I know. 1155 00:53:53.789 --> 00:53:57.769 What am I going to do if suddenly someone needs 1156 00:53:57.829 --> 00:54:00.989 to get in touch with me? That's what's that's that 1157 00:54:01.530 --> 00:54:05.929 your alarm, your kind of, um, I'll do the one 1158 00:54:05.969 --> 00:54:07.929 I need it for work so much in my head. 1159 00:54:08.570 --> 00:54:10.730 Can I tell you one of the bigger, more philosophical 1160 00:54:10.769 --> 00:54:12.570 things that I think is the issue with our children 1161 00:54:12.590 --> 00:54:14.750 having these devices? And you kind of touched on it 1162 00:54:14.809 --> 00:54:17.510 with what you guys said before about when you feel 1163 00:54:17.530 --> 00:54:20.239 a bit uncomfortable and things aren't going well, you distract 1164 00:54:20.260 --> 00:54:23.679 yourself by anything on this, which is what we all do, right? 1165 00:54:23.780 --> 00:54:27.800 When we feel a discomfort, that genuinely, the central message 1166 00:54:27.860 --> 00:54:30.000 in this new book of mine, Make Change at Last, 1167 00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:32.539 is basically saying the reason we can't make changes that 1168 00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:37.519 last is It's because we're not understanding the role. You know, 1169 00:54:37.659 --> 00:54:40.980 every single behavior in our life serves a role. Too 1170 00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:43.659 often we try and change the behavior without understanding the 1171 00:54:43.780 --> 00:54:46.369 role it plays in our life. When you understand the role, 1172 00:54:46.889 --> 00:54:49.489 behavior change actually becomes a lot easier. But when it 1173 00:54:49.530 --> 00:54:53.769 comes to children, if you as a well-functioning, I think 1174 00:54:53.809 --> 00:54:55.769 I could call you a well-functioning adult. Is that? 1175 00:54:55.909 --> 00:54:57.030 Yeah, I reckon Rob is, yeah. 1176 00:54:57.559 --> 00:54:59.530 Now, I think most of the time you are, Josh. 1177 00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:01.070 You're having a tough week. 1178 00:55:01.110 --> 00:55:02.409 I'm going to say, Josh, from what I've seen today, 1179 00:55:02.449 --> 00:55:04.530 I think you're a well-functioning adult, right? Oh, thank you. 1180 00:55:04.570 --> 00:55:05.969 And that's an official diagnosis. 1181 00:55:06.110 --> 00:55:10.710 So if you are saying, at your age now, with 1182 00:55:10.809 --> 00:55:14.449 all your life experience, you are using a phone to 1183 00:55:14.489 --> 00:55:18.469 distract yourself, what does that do to a child, right? 1184 00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:21.320 Everything good in our life comes from our ability to 1185 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:26.480 be present, right? Our relationships, our work, our creativity, whatever 1186 00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:30.019 it might be. And my real worry, we can talk about, yes, 1187 00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:32.530 they're accessing pornography. Yes, that worries me. We need to 1188 00:55:32.570 --> 00:55:35.610 change that. But I think there's a much bigger, broader 1189 00:55:35.650 --> 00:55:38.590 view here, which is if we're teaching little humans now 1190 00:55:39.170 --> 00:55:42.010 that you never have to sit with discomfort. You never 1191 00:55:42.070 --> 00:55:45.019 have to understand what you're feeling because there's always a 1192 00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:49.460 quick fix. I worry in 10, 20 years what kind 1193 00:55:49.500 --> 00:55:52.519 of society we're going to have. If you cannot sit 1194 00:55:52.539 --> 00:55:56.840 with discomfort, you cannot really make meaningful changes in your 1195 00:55:56.860 --> 00:56:00.380 life for good. You really can't. We can

talk about addictions, 1196 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:02.039 but I would argue that most of us have got 1197 00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:05.659 these low-grade addictions now in society. They may not need 1198 00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:11.309 Alcoholics Anonymous. right? But maybe if smartphones anonymous existed, maybe 1199 00:56:11.349 --> 00:56:13.349 many of us would be sort of signing up, right? 1200 00:56:13.789 --> 00:56:16.610 So I think that ability to be present is something 1201 00:56:16.630 --> 00:56:18.929 we really need to teach our children. I think the 1202 00:56:18.949 --> 00:56:22.349 other uncomfortable truth for many of us is, look, I've 1203 00:56:22.369 --> 00:56:25.469 been a parent now for almost 15 years, right? I 1204 00:56:25.469 --> 00:56:27.889 would say the number one thing I've learned is that 1205 00:56:27.929 --> 00:56:31.360 children don't do what you tell them to do. They 1206 00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:38.230 do what they see you doing, right? That's we can't 1207 00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:40.409 really tell our kids to get off their devices if 1208 00:56:40.449 --> 00:56:42.929 we're also scrolling our email at the same time. 1209 00:56:43.010 --> 00:56:45.070 I think we have to use that on TikTok in 1210 00:56:45.090 --> 00:56:45.630 the front row. 1211 00:56:46.409 --> 00:56:48.909 Yeah, so I think we also, again, it's not about blame. 1212 00:56:48.969 --> 00:56:51.119 It's just about saying, well, maybe we can look at 1213 00:56:51.139 --> 00:56:53.340 our own behaviours a little bit, particularly in front of 1214 00:56:53.380 --> 00:56:55.260 the children and go, well, what sort of behaviours are 1215 00:56:55.300 --> 00:56:57.480 we modelling to our children? 1216 00:56:58.300 --> 00:57:00.059 Yeah, absolutely fascinating. 1217 00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:00.539 It's amazing. 1218 00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:02.480 We'll have to get you back on to do another one. 1219 00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:06.829 I've loved this. Can we ask you, your podcast, which is, 1220 00:57:07.510 --> 00:57:12.789 Absolutely massive. And incredibly, I'm sure you've got the stats 1221 00:57:12.829 --> 00:57:15.389 of who listens, but both of our mother-in-laws are huge fans. 1222 00:57:15.949 --> 00:57:20.989 What percentage of listeners are mother-in-laws to your podcast? 1223 00:57:21.530 --> 00:57:22.670 It's 100% in this room. 1224 00:57:22.969 --> 00:57:24.869 I think what I'll do is I'll phone Apple and 1225 00:57:24.889 --> 00:57:27.409 Spotify and say, guys, listen, when you give us the demographics, 1226 00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:29.860 you don't have a mother-in-law category. 1227 00:57:29.949 --> 00:57:30.139 Yeah. 1228 00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:33.119 And Rob and Josh think that would be a very 1229 00:57:33.260 --> 00:57:35.420 useful demographic to understand. 1230 00:57:36.179 --> 00:57:38.480 Or mother-in-laws of comedians. 1231 00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:41.320 I actually don't know. 1232 00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:44.429 Feel Better, Live More. That's a great title. 1233 00:57:44.449 --> 00:57:47.909 Feel Better, Live More. And what's your most recent book? 1234 00:57:48.190 --> 00:57:48.590 It's called. 1235 00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.280 Well, the one that comes out now, the brand new 1236 00:57:52.300 --> 00:57:56.179 one is called Make Change That Lasts, which I think 1237 00:57:56.219 --> 00:57:58.099 it's my best one yet. It's my sixth one. It's 1238 00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:00.780 nine simple ways to break free from the habits that 1239 00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:03.300 hold you back. And it's not that unrelated to this 1240 00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.389 conversation with you. It's like, how do you actually make 1241 00:58:05.510 --> 00:58:08.030 change in your life that lasts? How do you make 1242 00:58:08.070 --> 00:58:10.050 change beyond January, beyond February? 1243 00:58:10.329 --> 00:58:12.869 If it gets to number 20 and no higher in 1244 00:58:12.909 --> 00:58:14.110 the charts, how are we feeling? 1245 00:58:15.989 --> 00:58:18.500 Now, this is a, you mean, I've got a great 1246 00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:19.079 answer for this, I think. 1247 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:21.039 First time you've been stuck for words. 1248 00:58:21.059 --> 00:58:23.760 No, you know, the truth is, right, honestly, and I 1249 00:58:23.860 --> 00:58:25.690 know this is going to be a bit of a 1250 00:58:25.710 --> 00:58:29.369 serious answer, right? I'm totally okay with that. And I'll 1251 00:58:29.389 --> 00:58:33.619 tell you why. I've realized that I've already won by 1252 00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:34.389 writing this book. 1253 00:58:34.469 --> 00:58:34.630 Why? 1254 00:58:34.650 --> 00:58:37.769 Because I wrote the book that was in my heart. 1255 00:58:37.809 --> 00:58:39.170 I did. I loved it. The last two and a 1256 00:58:39.170 --> 00:58:42.690 half years of writing this has helped me so much. 1257 00:58:42.750 --> 00:58:44.530 And I've done, you know, have you read the Rick 1258 00:58:44.590 --> 00:58:45.469 Rubin book, The Creative Act? 1259 00:58:45.489 --> 00:58:46.219 Yeah, it's brilliant. 1260 00:58:46.949 --> 00:58:50.230 And Rick's amazing. I had just a beautiful conversation with 1261 00:58:50.250 --> 00:58:51.730 him on my podcast about a couple of years ago 1262 00:58:51.769 --> 00:58:55.420 about all these ideas. And Rick will say that the 1263 00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:58.900 very best art does not get made with the audience 1264 00:58:58.980 --> 00:59:02.360 in mind. And I freaking love that. And I really, 1265 00:59:02.380 --> 00:59:05.170 this book, yes, I wrote it to help people, but 1266 00:59:05.230 --> 00:59:08.550 primarily I wrote it to help myself. I wrote it 1267 00:59:08.570 --> 00:59:12.380 to help me understand the human condition, why it is 1268 00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:14.860 we go to certain behaviors, why we can't make those 1269 00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:17.869 behaviors sustainable in the long term. So actually the direct 1270 00:59:17.909 --> 00:59:20.110 answer to your question is if

this only makes number 1271 00:59:20.110 --> 00:59:23.750 20 in the charts, right? I'm okay with that because 1272 00:59:23.849 --> 00:59:26.650 I've already won by writing it. I know it's a 1273 00:59:26.690 --> 00:59:29.090 great book. And I'd say that with no arrogance, right? 1274 00:59:29.610 --> 00:59:31.949 I really believe that this is a fantastic book that 1275 00:59:31.989 --> 00:59:35.360 will give people wisdom that can keep coming back to 1276 00:59:35.420 --> 00:59:38.400 month after month, year after year. But I don't need 1277 00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:40.840 people to tell me that. If people don't like it, 1278 00:59:41.500 --> 00:59:43.900 I still like myself for writing this book. And that's 1279 00:59:43.940 --> 00:59:44.780 the big difference now for me. 1280 00:59:44.780 --> 00:59:48.059 Plus, crucially, the way publishing works, you've already got the advance. 1281 00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:48.860 Yeah. 1282 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.429 Let's face facts, yeah. 1283 00:59:53.610 --> 00:59:55.670 He also writes in that book, guys, and you guys 1284 00:59:55.710 --> 00:59:59.289 may really resonate with this. He talks about all these 1285 00:59:59.409 --> 01:00:01.639 artists that, you know, for people who don't know, Rick 1286 01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:05.260 Rubin has been produced to, you know, everyone from Jay-Z 1287 01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:08.260 to Neil Young to the Red Hot Chili Peppers to Adele, right? 1288 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:10.909 So he's done everything. And he will write about the 1289 01:00:11.030 --> 01:00:12.489 dangers of having an audience. 1290 01:00:13.300 --> 01:00:13.489 Right? 1291 01:00:13.820 --> 01:00:16.679 Because if you already have an audience, the temptation then 1292 01:00:16.739 --> 01:00:20.019 is to not get creative and push the boundaries. The 1293 01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:23.800 temptation is just to appease your audience. And for the 1294 01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:25.139 last two and a half years, what I've been saying 1295 01:00:25.179 --> 01:00:27.219 to Penguin is, guys, this is a very different book. 1296 01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:29.920 I'm not going to write a book that I've already written. 1297 01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.460 This is different. I'm going to be pushing myself, putting 1298 01:00:32.500 --> 01:00:35.050 out new ideas to the world. And I said, you 1299 01:00:35.090 --> 01:00:36.909 guys are going to have a bias for me to 1300 01:00:37.030 --> 01:00:39.469 actually just stay back a little bit to give the 1301 01:00:39.550 --> 01:00:41.929 audience what they think they want. I'm not going to 1302 01:00:41.969 --> 01:00:45.010 do that because... You can have commercial success doing that, 1303 01:00:45.070 --> 01:00:48.130 but I think you can lose your soul along the way. 1304 01:00:48.750 --> 01:00:52.570 So I feel that I've nourished my soul in writing this. And, 1305 01:00:53.300 --> 01:00:56.440 you know, what happens now is out of my control, basically. Brilliant. 1306 01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:56.860 That's great. 1307 01:00:56.880 --> 01:00:58.840 It's such an amazing conversation. Thanks for coming on. 1308 01:00:59.119 --> 01:00:59.980 Thank you so much. 1309 01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:01.480 Do the final question. 1310 01:01:02.460 --> 01:01:03.280 Yeah. Yeah. 1311 01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:05.940 I think so. Um, we always ask at the end, 1312 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:09.079 cause we haven't actually asked about your, we haven't actually 1313 01:01:09.139 --> 01:01:11.780 asked about your direct parenting that much, but beyond the 1314 01:01:11.800 --> 01:01:15.039 kind of, um, The kind of passing on the jobs thing. 1315 01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:17.360 So does that mean we get to do it again? 1316 01:01:17.380 --> 01:01:17.840 Part two? 1317 01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:18.559 Because I've loved it. 1318 01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:19.579 Yeah, I've loved it. 1319 01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:20.500 Let's do a part two. 1320 01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:26.159 The point, the question then is, with your partner, your wife, 1321 01:01:26.969 --> 01:01:29.170 what's the one thing she does as a parent that 1322 01:01:29.650 --> 01:01:32.030 just blows your mind and you just think, that is 1323 01:01:32.090 --> 01:01:34.590 why I am so pleased that she's the mother to 1324 01:01:34.630 --> 01:01:36.789 my children? And what is the one thing that she does, 1325 01:01:37.170 --> 01:01:40.989 maybe a minor thing that's quite annoying? Yeah. And you 1326 01:01:41.050 --> 01:01:42.530 haven't brought it up with her, but were she to 1327 01:01:42.570 --> 01:01:44.190 listen to this, this would be a way to pass 1328 01:01:44.230 --> 01:01:46.449 it on to her. Wow. 1329 01:01:46.710 --> 01:01:54.019 Okay. So firstly, my wife is just the most amazing mother. Honestly, 1330 01:01:54.500 --> 01:01:57.440 she really is. And I would say the one thing, 1331 01:01:57.460 --> 01:02:00.400 there are many things she does phenomenally well. The one 1332 01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:03.800 thing I think she does incredibly well, which is probably 1333 01:02:03.860 --> 01:02:06.380 why I now do it, because I've learned it from her, 1334 01:02:07.260 --> 01:02:11.300 from a very, very young age, when the kids were young, 1335 01:02:11.960 --> 01:02:16.590 she would always listen to them so attentively. Like even 1336 01:02:16.630 --> 01:02:19.570 as a three-year-old, what they said really, really mattered. She 1337 01:02:19.590 --> 01:02:21.949 would take it seriously and she would give them proper answers. 1338 01:02:22.739 --> 01:02:25.260 And I know that sounds like a small thing, but 1339 01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:28.980 I think I grew up, I think my parents very 1340 01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:31.840 much were from the generation where, you know, What do 1341 01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:35.219 kids know, right? Kids are piping up in the background. Again, 1342 01:02:35.239 --> 01:02:37.739 I'm not criticizing any parent from that generation. I just 1343 01:02:37.860 -->

01:02:42.699 don't think that I felt my voice as a three, four, five, 1344 01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:45.500 six year old had real, real validity for my parents 1345 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:49.400 to take seriously, but she does. And I've learned that. 1346 01:02:49.420 --> 01:02:52.039 And I thought, wow. So we have the most incredible 1347 01:02:52.099 --> 01:02:54.679 conversations now with the children at the dinner table, at 1348 01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:56.789 the breakfast. You know, I have podcast guests coming to 1349 01:02:56.809 --> 01:02:58.929 the house every week because the studio's in my garden. 1350 01:02:59.610 --> 01:03:02.630 And I'm always chatting to the children. I'm saying, they're 1351 01:03:02.690 --> 01:03:06.860 always saying, you know, come to your garden. He was 1352 01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:10.610 going to, and then three days beforehand, we got an email. 1353 01:03:10.349 --> 01:03:12.469 Saying, Rangan, we're really, really sorry. He has to fly 1354 01:03:12.550 --> 01:03:16.230 back to LA urgently. Any chance he can come to London? 1355 01:03:16.789 --> 01:03:19.429 And if it wasn't Rick Rubin, I know he would 1356 01:03:19.469 --> 01:03:21.349 have gone. 1357 01:03:21.429 --> 01:03:24.659 But if little Rangan, who had posters of Jon Bon 1358 01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:27.360 Jovi on his wall, and Rick Rubin didn't produce Bon Jovi, 1359 01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:31.500 If you had told him that one day you're going 1360 01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:33.500 to be able to sit in a room with the 1361 01:03:33.559 --> 01:03:35.539 Rick Rubin and speak to him about whatever you want 1362 01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:37.920 and you didn't take it, I'm not sure what he 1363 01:03:38.059 --> 01:03:39.679 would have thought of his speech. So I did, I 1364 01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:41.429 had a studio in London, I got on the train. 1365 01:03:41.889 --> 01:03:43.050 Oh, he's met you offline already. 1366 01:03:44.250 --> 01:03:46.230 Yeah, so I did do that. So yeah, I would 1367 01:03:46.269 --> 01:03:48.909 say that's the biggest quality I would say that I'm 1368 01:03:48.929 --> 01:03:50.670 drawn to from my wife. And honestly, maybe this is 1369 01:03:50.690 --> 01:03:55.750 like the unconventional answer in terms of the second part 1370 01:03:55.769 --> 01:04:00.300 of that question. Yeah. I don't even, I can't honestly 1371 01:04:00.340 --> 01:04:02.079 say there's something that she does that irritates me. I 1372 01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:05.340 think she's... Turn it in, mate. Go on. 1373 01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:06.980 Hey, don't talk shit to me, yeah? 1374 01:04:08.340 --> 01:04:11.550 I think she's a wonderful mother, honestly. And I think she's, 1375 01:04:11.570 --> 01:04:14.889 she probably, that's probably the most important thing in her life. 1376 01:04:15.750 --> 01:04:17.750 I can't hear what you guys are saying. Sorry, I'm going, 1377 01:04:18.090 --> 01:04:20.070 I'm listening to that. I'm going, yeah, come on, mate, whatever. 1378 01:04:20.130 --> 01:04:22.440 As long as you don't edit out that first bit 1379 01:04:22.460 --> 01:04:24.639 right at the very start of the conversation. 1380 01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:28.619 She's a great mum, basically. 1381 01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:29.360 Oh, brilliant. 1382 01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:31.360 All right, fair enough, mate. Thank you so much for 1383 01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:32.579 doing this. We'll definitely get you back. 1384 01:04:32.619 --> 01:04:33.539 Yeah, I love that. 1385 01:04:33.579 --> 01:04:36.630 Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. And Josh, I hope 1386 01:04:36.650 --> 01:04:38.289 you're cold and your skin gets better soon. 1387 01:04:38.329 --> 01:04:38.869 Thank you. 1388 01:04:38.909 --> 01:04:39.309 That's the key. 1389 01:04:39.389 --> 01:04:42.409 Also, can you just say, Teresa Watts, thank you for 1390 01:04:42.449 --> 01:04:43.369 listening to the podcast. 1391 01:04:43.389 --> 01:04:44.809 That's my mother-in-law. She'll love that. 1392 01:04:45.690 --> 01:04:48.039 Teresa Watts thank you so much for listening to the 1393 01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:52.659 podcast and always remember never on double speed always on 1394 01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:54.329 the speed which is meant to be listened to. 1395 01:04:54.289 --> 01:04:57.050 Cheers thanks mate you've been brilliant. 1396 01:04:56.550 --> 01:04:57.469 Cheers guys thank you. 1397 01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:00.199 Rangan Chatterjee. 1398 01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:00.949 Doctor. 1399 01:05:01.170 --> 01:05:03.210 Doctor Rangan Chatterjee. 1400 01:05:03.349 --> 01:05:04.150 That was great, wasn't it? 1401 01:05:04.250 --> 01:05:04.889 Fascinating. 1402 01:05:05.070 --> 01:05:08.369 I did feel like sometimes I cut in with jokes at. 1403 01:05:08.250 --> 01:05:08.809 Quite serious moments. 1404 01:05:08.889 --> 01:05:10.360 No, but I think you've got to back yourself. 1405 01:05:10.469 --> 01:05:12.019 I think you've got to back yourself. I think he 1406 01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:14.699 liked it. And I've never heard you apologising more. 1407 01:05:14.940 --> 01:05:15.920 Well, that's because I was. 1408 01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:19.900 It's great to have really interesting staff, but also as well, 1409 01:05:19.940 --> 01:05:21.539 people come in for laughs, so I've got to slip 1410 01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:22.440 in a couple of little doozies. 1411 01:05:22.460 --> 01:05:24.139 I know, but I don't think you should apologise. 1412 01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:26.260 At the end, I was going, cut the fucking shit. 1413 01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:28.590 I was going to get near me, I think, because 1414 01:05:28.610 --> 01:05:30.789 we were both talking at once. Very good, I enjoyed that. 1415 01:05:30.989 --> 01:05:32.010 Loved it. Lovely bloke. 1416 01:05:32.170 --> 01:05:32.480 What a guy. 1417 01:05:32.489 --> 01:05:34.650 Read his book. I'm going to go listen to him 1418 01:05:34.949 --> 01:05:37.190 interview Rick Rubin. Yeah, that is a good one. 1419 01:05:37.409 --> 01:05:37.610 Yeah. 1420 01:05:38.489 --> 01:05:38.949 I'd like to get. 1421 01:05:39.559 --> 01:05:40.800 Also, when he went, everyone comes to my garden. 1422 01:05:40.820 --> 01:05:42.280 I was like, there's no fucking way Ruben came to 1423 01:05:42.300 --> 01:05:42.940 your garden, mate. 1424 01:05:43.340 --> 01:05:44.699 Oh, yeah, his diary's just changed. 1425 01:05:45.050 --> 01:05:45.730 Fuck off. 1426 01:05:45.809 --> 01:05:49.570 Fern Cotton's always getting people in her garden. Pardon? Like, 1427 01:05:49.730 --> 01:05:51.469 when she's doing her podcast, she's always. 1428 01:05:51.789 --> 01:05:52.750 Yeah, but she lives in London. 1429 01:05:53.309 --> 01:05:53.909 Yeah. 1430 01:05:53.969 --> 01:05:57.349 No, like, it's lovely where he lives up near Manchester, 1431 01:05:57.369 --> 01:06:00.269 but Ruben's... No, if you're trying to book Jamie Carragher. 1432 01:06:00.409 --> 01:06:01.710 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1433 01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:02.010 Bye. 1434 01:06:02.070 --> 01:06:02.280 Bye.