บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Intersectional Dimensions: Disability Awareness with Guest Zakiya Mabery

very much. And like deciding who I am. I appreciate that. back. Yeah. Well, I think folks are gonna really enjoy this. You're ready.   03:29 Yes. Let's dive in.   S:  03:31 All right, here we go. Hi, heizak. Here, welcome to our true colors.   03:40 Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.   S:  03:43 I'm so happy you are here. Thank you very much. And you've got lots of helpful concepts for people, it's really going to be a pleasure. One of the things that I know about you is that you introduce yourself as being a triple threat. What does that mean? Can you tell us what Triple Threat means?   03:59 Well, I consider myself a triple threat because I'm a woman, I am a color. I'm black, and I have multiple disabilities. And when I say disabilities, I have non apparent disabilities. That means once you can't see what's the visible eye, and now I have a physical disability on my foot. So that's why I consider myself a triple threat. Because when you look at individuals who have intersectionality of a marginalized population, some people that are that to be a threat, especially now when you look at the things that are going on in society with the civil unjust, they consider people like myself a threat, but I turned it into the positive. And I like to discuss uncomfortable conversations. And so we can talk about that and peel back the onion and figure out why does that make people feel uncomfortable? Why do people like myself, make people feel uncomfortable? And so we can tackle that and talk About stereotypes and unconscious bias, and then we can perhaps get along a lot better. Wow.   S:  05:05 Yeah, you know, to be honest with you, I hadn't considered intersectionality and itself as being a threat to some, but I can absolutely see how that could be. And I did talk about intersectionality a lot, and really emphasize the fact that it's not just taking a look at all of the things that make us who we are, you know, when you take a look at the diversity wheel, there are so many aspects to our personality to our identity to what makes us who we are. But that does not really encompass what intersectionality is. And I think that gets confused sometimes. And one of the things that you said, as it has to do with these marginalized identities, and sometimes thought of as underrepresented identities, absolutely, yes. And I think it's really important to know that distinction, because of what that might bring in terms of one's experiences, right? You don't just experience things because you're a woman or just experience things because you're black, or just because you have a disability, when you put all three of these things together. I mean, that can very much influence or shape one's experiences for themselves. But then like you said, Hmm, that might also make a difference to the other people around you, particularly in the workplace. So yes, I'm very eager to dive into this conversation.   06:34 Absolutely. And when applying for jobs, or even when you're looking to

buy a house, if there are issues, you wonder, okay, is it because I was a woman? Is it because of my disability? Or because I'm black? Or is it all three? So it makes you begin to question yourself, so then you have to do a lot of self work to try to work on the things that society has inflicted upon you, which is years and years of trauma, actually what it is, it's a lot of trauma. That's right, it really is. And   S:  07:07 you know, the theme of this season does focus on self care, or care in general, you know, our wellness. And so these are not things to ignore. And you're right, I can think of lots of instances where I questioned myself or an experience that I had if it had something to do with my identity. And sometimes, you know, I kind of make myself feel uncomfortable or upset because of that insecurity. And then I'm also upset because I'm thinking Shawna, let's not jump to conclusions. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with race or that. But then on the   07:40 other hand, it might I mean, so trying to navigate that is pretty tough, it is pretty tough. But you said one thing is about being aware of so so then we need to be more aware of myself and conscious of our own character, our feelings and our motives. And that's where a lot of the hard work comes in. Right? Yes, for sure. For sure.   S:  08:01 But also other people are trying to become more aware, for example, you know, this month is Disability Awareness Month, yeah, whenever we focus on certain identities or aspects of one's identity, you know, people really do spend a lot of time trying to understand a little bit more, particularly if it's not your own experience. So I do appreciate you coming on, to bring more awareness during this time. But it's, it's funny, I do have some sort of a thing about these months, let's say, not light months, you know, you and I, when we spoke before recording, I did talk to you about teaching, you know, I used to teach, and I think I've mentioned this before on the show, but you know, just just cuz I'll go ahead and tell it again, as an elementary school teacher, it was kind of a thing to be aware of these different months and introduce this into the curriculum for the children. So you know, Women's History Month, black history, month, etc, right. And one thing that always bothered me, even though I knew the importance behind it, and I and I recognized that it was an organized way of bringing in these cultural aspects that children need to learn about, it always bothered me that it felt kind of like cramming for a test, in that during that whole month, you're learning about these very specific people who have made differences to us in one way or another. But then when the month is over the bulletin board bones down, the worksheets change and you're moving on to another group. And it's like, you know, when you cram for a test, you take the test, it's over d forget everything, and then move on to the next thing. So it's always been kind of tricky

for me where I definitely know the importance of you know, having these Awareness Month but I don't want people to walk away, you know, and once November starts, they're not thinking about these things anymore. Does that make sense? Oh, it   09:51 makes total sense. And thank you for bringing that point. China. Wow. When you when you brought that up, it made me think of mentor that passed away about two and a half years ago named Donna Cohen. She was the director of cap, which is computer electronics accommodation program, which was housed at the Pentagon. It was a center where if you needed assistive technology, which is if you need it technology to help you do your job, because you need it accommodation, for example, jobs or economic keyboard, and you work for the Department of Defense, you just need a letter from your doctor and work with the EEO office to get you the technology. Well, she was a pioneer champion for disability inclusion. And I was at Cocoa Beach, Florida at what's called diomede, which is where they train all of the yope practitioners. And she's made a very similar comment to what you just said. And what she was talking about was special emphasis programs. This is October, disability month. So you can have someone who is Hispanic and has a disability, or for Black History Month, have someone who has two dimensions of whatever that particular month is, and so on and so forth. But don't just think you're just checking that one box, because look at me, for example, talking about the triple threat. I'm black, I'm a woman and I have multiple disabilities. So I think you made a very excellent point. And we should continue to talk about all types of dimensions of diversity. When you look at that diversity that well, you have different types of dimensions, even going to social economical status, you know, that's the dimension education, there's so many dimensions of diversity that people need to consider. leaders need to consider when they're looking at their workforce. So great point.   S:  11:51 Thank you. And you're so right. You know, earlier, you mentioned that you are ready to peel back this onion, okay. And there's these uncomfortable conversations that take place sometimes. And one thing I know is just 2020 in itself has put nearly everything you can think of that's uncomfortable out on the table for us to be faced with, right, like there's no running away from some of these issues that are just part of our everyday lives, right, we were dealing with COVID we're dealing with the political climate right now that which is so nebulous and divisive. We're dealing with the civil unrest, and trying to really hammer home like this importance of equity. Right? And almost to something some extent, like just what is decent. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's uncomfortable to talk about. Now, one interesting thing is it used to be that all of these topics, or, you know, things similar to these topics prior to 2020, let's say, or what

people called, what they call them, kitchen, kitchen table issues.   13:08 Mm hmm.   S:  13:08 The things that you talk about with your family around the kitchen table? Well, guess what? These have moved into the workplace. Yeah, these conversations are no longer just limited to the people that you hang out with in your house, or your friends. These are now workplace issues as well. And that needs a lot of discomfort. There is a willingness to have these conversations, but people don't know how to do it. They need some tools, right? Like, I want to do this for my people. I want to make sure my organization is healthy. How do I navigate these topics, when prior to now they've been taboo, or have been seen as being inappropriate. You are an author. And you have put a lot of focus on leadership and things that leadership needs to do or can do to really address some of these issues, particularly as we aren't navigating the COVID era. Can you talk a little bit about your book?   14:11 Yes. In my book that is going to be going on presale. At the end of this month. I point out the distinction between what is equal and equitable. I think that is very key. Let me just say that again, what is equal and equitable, because some people think is synonymous and it is not leaders must understand that there is a difference, and how they approach this in their organization, and also approach a lot of different topics as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And at the end of every chapter, there's actually worksheets that can be done, where you can test your knowledge. And so it is good for not just leadership, middle managers and just employees yeahs as they navigate these uncomfortable conversations until with inclusion in the era of COVID-19. So we want to just build more trust between the leadership and also have more engagement with employees. Right?   S:  15:20 So what are some of the things that you have found are barriers to establishing this trust,   15:26 and listening, one of the key things that I've noticed that leadership is not listening to what the employees are saying that they need. So they do all these surveys, they gather analysis, but they're not paying it. They're not doing anything with information they're getting back. So therefore, the employees are no longer wanting to aid do the surveys, again, because no change are being they're not seeing any tangible steps that are being taken for what the information information. So wouldn't you as an employee to lose trust in your organization if you're not seeing any change. So you have to actually listen to what is being said. And that's not just what the surveys, actually leave your office, leave your suite, and go down and actually have conversations, and in this environment of all this social and just have check ins with your employees, even virtually checking to see how your employees are, are doing. And that includes our military leaders as well. I've had soldiers because of what my

other half does for a living contacted me and said, I am not Okay, ma'am. I'm not okay, because they come from various backgrounds. And they're having conflicts, what you see, MJ is stating what they're not allowed to do, and what they're actually feeling so awesome to a mill to help check in on our military members as well, to see how they're doing. So leaders from across the board, check in on your people to see if they're okay. See if they need a psych eval, because mental health is real. And listen to what they what they're asking for.   S:  17:06 I think that what you said makes so much sense. And going back to the survey issue, I think it's so important that we make sure that we're also collecting this qualitative data. So I feel like the surveys are useful, and they do get data and having those conversations that is so important as well. But I think when you are in the data collection phase, even before you're having those conversations, or let's say while that included should be this qualitative aspect, asking people open ended questions, so that you are better equipped when you do have those conversations?   17:40 Absolutely. Because changing mindset to see DNI as is the organizational asset. And we have to get the shift for people to understand that it's actually an out an asset to change the mindset. And it takes time, any type of change takes time. It's not going to happen overnight.   S:  18:00 That is very true, too. So given that you are the quote, triple threat, can you talk a little bit about some of your own experiences in terms of any struggles that you might have had or barriers that you could share that others listening might be able to relate to?   18:19 Sure, being in a meeting, and I spoken up to say an idea. And the person holding posting the meeting, like, didn't comment at all, as if it was not a good idea. And then someone else who did not look like me, said the same idea, and then told that it was a great idea. You know, fo Michael invalidation. And so what did I do that? I know, that's the question that some of your listeners are probably, well, why did you just say something? Because I actually froze, I froze him, I was thinking, Okay, if I comment right now, I'll be put on the spot. And they'll just think, okay, it's a key as being like an angry black woman. So I just didn't say anything. That's what I chose to do. But that's the key. And then there's the key. And now we'll just be assertive and say, Wow, that's the idea I just said five minutes ago.   S:  19:15 So I have grown. You know, there are actually studies about the agency that black women have and when to speak up, or how to speak up and how comfortable they are, knowing that there is this angry black woman stereotype and bias that some people hold on to. It's tough because it's one of those things that you can't really prove that somebody would think that or be reacting to some some stereotypes such as that yet, it's definitely there. And sometimes it comes out in these other forms by maybe not saying angry black woman, but they might say something about you being loud or aggressive or things Like that, if you assert yourself just as somebody else might, and you're, you're met with that you experienced resistance where somebody else does it. And they're, they're praised for their tenacity. Exactly. Exactly. It's, that's a tough thing to deal with, and kind of getting back to those uncomfortable situations or conversations. Have you experienced any of these sorts of things? microaggressions? Or as you once said, to me, Microsoft's that you think may have stemmed from your disability?   20:35 Oh, absolutely. I've been told multiple times that I didn't look disable. People ask me blanket questions about it. I didn't feel comfortable answering it just a lot of different questions, saying, When I told him that I actually have PTSD. Wow, you're crazy. I didn't know why. Yeah, I've had a lot of different experiences in the workplace. When I've expressed things about my disability. So then I learned to be just more closed about my personal life. And then I've had other things said about me, I'm too closed at work. I don't share enough about me, but it's because of past experiences. So I just come to work to work. And I'm friendly enough, in my opinion, but I really tried to just focus on work because of so many things that have happened to me, in the past those like you can't win for losing   S:  21:32 what you're saying, I've got two things that have come to mind. The first one is, as a lot of organizations are really trying to embrace diversity, equity and inclusion. Some are really trying to also pull in this sense of belonging, making sure that their employees have this, which I think is very important. Belonging is one of our most basic needs, right? We need to belong, right? It's like, think of the hierarchy of needs, right? You can't be engaged and be productive if you just don't feel like you fit. And that's one of the things we talk about, on the show Anyway, you know, this longing for belonging. And so to really kind of ostracized somebody, I was just really taken aback by the boldness, I actually expected you to say more about, like, maybe people ignore certain things, because they're not sure how to Oh, no.   22:22 But Wow. But remember, my whole career, I've worked in HR or EEO. So that's even more appalling. These are people saying these things, either in HR or e o, or the headquarters suite. That's where I've worked my entire career headquarters, EEO or HR. So that's even more like, Wow,   S:  22:43 it really is. And that was what was gonna bring me to the second point, which is, by the way, that's illegal.   22:49 Exactly.   S:  22:52 I think that every leader needs to know that asking those kinds of probing questions, is really against the law.   23:00 Yeah, yes. Yeah.   S:  23:02 You know, you mentioned assistive technology, and, you know, having programs in place to provide these

reasonable accommodations. There's one thing about sitting down and having a conversation about what you might need. And it's a completely different story to ask those very personal questions that are the answers to those questions are not needed. Right. By combinations.   23:27 Right. Exactly.   S:  23:29 Wow. Yeah. I saw are just like, I it's true. He did say who you're working for what you know what you did, and it's like, I was shocked to hear the questions in the first place. But then, to know that it was that group is extra shocking.   23:46 Yeah, I know. I know. You're just like, shocked. My friends and family like, yeah, they're just yeah. And this also next point, when we're talking about the covid, 19. And now everyone going to work in virtually. And I told you, when I was talking with my therapist, I was laughing kind of like this, but it's not like he he laugh. It's just right. Like, I can't believe this, like, that wasn't reasons that propelled me to actually having to leave the workplace is because a reasonable accommodation. One of the major reasons accommodation, reasonable accommodations I need needed was for my Fibromyalgia flare ups need to work remotely, because it was becoming more inflamed. And I was told no, and it wasn't giving any justification. And for those of you who don't know about reasonable accommodation, it has to be a major reason like they have to build your office or, you know, something that would be really costly for the organization, why they have to say no to it, or I'm working on work that has to be in a classified area for someone really, that will be at a hardship to the organization. So it was none of those reasons. And it became so stressful, it began to trigger my depression, and a whole multitude of reasons. My doctor said, this is like, affecting you. And so I had to get pulled out of work and just be at home and bit put on a whole bunch of different medications is one of the reasons that I ended up having to be pulled off my last assignment. And so I saved this to say, it was because of reasonable accommodation blanketly to get into all the details. And what is so ironic is, in March of this year, everybody who was not an essential worker, and that could work remotely began working remotely. And almost across the world, definitely in United States I know. And this is something that I was asking for my health, I could not walk without using assistive device, I was in a wheelchair, I was using a king. And they didn't, it was good not have the empathy, or compassion, because I believe from just my crystallizing experience, some people just want to have like a, some leaders just want to have it on you. But this is what I tell leaders, as I'm doing trainings and facilitations, you can see if somebody is working by if they're turning in quality work on time, we repeat that again, you can know if your employees are working and doing what they're supposed to do. If they're turning in quality work on time,

you don't have to physically see someone to know if they're working. That is showing that you are a micromanager, if you think you have to actually see someone, that's an old way of thinking that you need to get what the time it is 20. Now, mostly everyone is now transitioning beginning to get used to the virtual way of doing things. Yes, I understand. It's an adjustment. But it's not just the key and mabrey, who was having this problem with not being able to work remotely, there's a I mean, hundreds of Zacchaeus, who was having this problem, and it's very unfortunate that so many people had to endure this for something like COVID to happen to for it to see that, oh, you can be productive and work from home. And now, it's actually being a benefit, because it's cost saving for the organization. Because employees don't have to actually take up space in their buildings or in their, in their different, um, like if your satellite working from a different location. So now they'll say, Oh, actually, there's a benefit from people working remotely? Well, if you would have looked at it like that earlier, and maybe listen to some of the consultants that you had on your team, you could have found this out earlier. Boom.   S:  27:54 Yeah, that's one of the conversations I've been having with folks lately is, you know, we're right on the precipice of, you know, vaccines, thank goodness, we don't know, you know, when, when they will be available to everyone, you know, and the efficacy of them and so on. But, you know, we're getting there. So, people are beginning to kind of look forward like, okay, when we do start to really get back into our offices, what is that going to look like now that we know, we can work remotely? You know? Yeah, think about the savings of overhead, you know, people aren't, you're not paying for electricity, the way you would have had to think about the difference in security, because you have far fewer people passing through than you would have before. You know, there's all of these other things that are definitely that are a benefit of this strange to say it that way. And I've also had conversations with folks who have maybe not because of a disability, but because of other needs, perhaps they're caring for an aging parent or family member or someone else with needs that they need to take care of, or whatever the situation is, there's been a need for flex time, or the remote, the remote access, things like that. That now as you said, it's a big deal and everyone else that's been needing this or or even the folks who have been working remotely for years, and have found themselves not feeling included because they're not in the office, or other reasons going like Okay, so we've been doing this or I've wanted to do this, and now it's okay. Or the folks that have been remote already going like yeah, so now you see what the issues are. And and to go back to something else you said you know about the micromanaging. I think you know, it's important for leaders to have conversations with their employees about that. The style that is most suited to them, some people actually do prefer a bit more supervision, you know, they need more frequent check ins, other people are far more productive when they are able to embrace that sense of autonomy. You know, I know what I need to do I know what the standard is, I will do it for you, you know, and sometimes, you know, that extra, you know, eye over your shoulder actually inhibits your work, because you're so anxious   30:27 about everything,   S:  30:29 maybe you know, with that freedom, people can be a bit more innovative, or, or productive. So yes, these are definitely very important points and things to consider.   30:43 I fully agree, I had a conversation with a girlfriend said, her performance has gone totally up. So she's been working from home, and it's for that exact reason. her supervisor literally was always looking over her shoulder, and she doesn't have that anymore. And she's doing so much better.   S:  31:01 And, you know, it's okay, there's one other thing I wanted to talk about with you. And it kind of goes back to something else you said about the reasonable accommodations? You gave some very clear and good reasons to have gotten these accommodations, which would not have been a hardship to your office. Right. So that's why it's called reasonable, you know, it sounded reasonable. And, you know, you would say that people would say things to you like, well, you don't look disabled. And, folks, by the way, this is just a little aside, it is important to recognize that there are invisible disabilities or hidden disabilities that say, so you can't be the judge of what a disability is. And by the way, don't forget, it isn't your business to probe?   31:45 Absolutely,   S:  31:46 that is definitely not what you want to do. But one of the things that you said is through that program that you mentioned with Donna Cohen is, if you provided a doctor's note, then you were able to get what you needed, right? You can provide that for you without going into all your business. Now, that being said, when you talked about this denial of these accommodations, it was reminiscent of people saying that they don't see color, they treat everybody the same. There's impossible for there to be any discrimination or racism at play, because everyone is the same to me. And I don't know, I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on that. And this concept of colorblindness. And I guess you wouldn't call it color blindness when it comes to disability, but it to me, it kind of feels the same.   32:35 It does feel the same. Last month, I wrote a post about black lives matter that went viral on LinkedIn. And someone said that he was trying to compliment the post where he says, I don't teach my kids color, I don't see color. And I posted a picture of myself. I said, How can you not see all this dark, beautiful skin and people laugh, but I mix it. I did

struggle as a young child about my pigmentation because it was a dark cue. And we lived in Germany, and I was teased a bit growing up about my dark pigmentation. And my parents then, because of the things they said to me made me feel more confident about my pigmentation. So since then, I've become more confident, and I love my dark hue. And the same with my disability. But it wasn't until I start getting around other professionals with disabilities, that I became more confident about being an individual with disability. And that wasn't until my 20s. And I will say it's the same thing. When they say that. I don't recognize your disability. I don't see color. I want you to see color, or I think you've overcome or you did well for a person with a disability. No. What do you mean by that?   S:  33:54 My qualifiers?   33:55 Oh, like all the struggles that I've had everything that traumatic incident has occurred to me, that has made me who I am. without all of those things. I would not have been able to write the guide diversity inclusion in the Eva covid by myself. My high school teacher told me that I was not college material and I would not be successful in college. But I went to college and earned a degree in psychology. I have an MBA, I'm going to pursue my PhD. So all these things that when people said I was not good enough. I did. I've been fired from a job before. I I overcome. I've done so much in my life. I've told many doors been shut in my face. People have told me No. I've had people mock me. I've had a lot of things happen. But I'm still going to continue to go after pursue my dreams and my disabilities. They are what they are and I will continue to seek treatment for my disabilities. What I'm gonna continue to march on but I'm not going to say they're not there because they are it that makes me unique, unapologetically me.   S:  35:09 I love that. And thank you so much for sharing your experiences, because that's the bit of encouragement that other people need to hear. You don't have to take somebody no as your No.   35:21 Right.   S:  35:22 And I love that you are persistent, and you've pursued your dreams, and you are continuing to do so while still acknowledging that, yes, there are things that you need to take care of for yourself. But that doesn't stop you from doing what you need to do. And nor should somebody else try to stop you from doing that. If you could give one piece of advice for leaders out there who are well meaning, but not really sure the best way to tackle these things. What would you say to them?   35:53 Well, recently, we saw the passing of Chadwick boseman. And he lived an amazing, short life of 43 years, and the public did not know that he was battling cancer. And so from his legacy, I would like to say that he showed us that he could do so much in his short life without letting know anybody know what he was going through. So I would take that into the DI realm, and to the leadership room and say, Look at what legacy that you are leaving. What example Do you want to set for your family, your employees? What example? are you setting for the people that you're leaving behind? What is the legacy that you want to leave? Whenever I go to a funeral, I start thinking about my dash, you know, you have your birth date, the dash, and then the date that you would, you're going to no longer be here. So I would encourage leaders, as your have the distinct honor to lead in whatever capacity is that you're leading? And not just in corporate America, whether it's a church, civic organizations, fraternities, sororities, it's an honor to lead in positions. But what is it that you want your legacy to be and start living out your legacy? One that you will be proud of what that eulogy is being read. That is what I was saying,   S:  37:30 that is so powerful, I can see how when you're thinking about the life that someone has led, and you know what it is that they left for us, it makes you reflect on your own, and how important it is to reflect on that. Life is short. We don't we don't know what tomorrow brings. And I love that you bring that challenge to our leaders. What is it that you want to be your legacy? What do you want to be known for? Well, it has been so good talking to you. And you have got so much knowledge to share and your experiences. And it's been thought provoking. And I hope that everyone has been able to take something away with them that they can apply in their own lives. And if you're a leader listening, that you're thinking about your own organizations, and how you are approaching things, too.   38:23 Thank you, Shawna.   S:  38:24 Thank you. It's been my pleasure. You take care of yourself. I hope we talk again soon.   38:31 Absolutely.   S:  38:36 So Carmen,   38:37 Mm hmm.   S:  38:38 What do you think?   38:40 I thought I say this every time but I thought it was so interesting. Like I think, particularly when it comes to the question of invisible disabilities, it kind of to me raises the question of who gets the side that your experience your identity isn't as valid, like I think particularly the one example of reasonable accommodations, and then being told no, with it sounds like no justifications. That's kind of like to me, I see that as someone saying, I don't even know what's going on. I don't care enough to look into it. I don't care enough to maybe ask you have a conversation with you sit down and say like, what can we do to support you, which I think is completely what anyone in a leadership position should do if someone on their team is coming to them with this, but it really it makes you think I think a little bit about do we believe it more if we can see it. Do we validate it more if we can see it? Do we invalidate it if we don't see it? I think we do. I think Yeah,   39:38 we do. I   39:39 think we have a tendency to do that.   39:40 Yeah,   S:  39:41 I believe that too. Sadly, and it blew my mind as you know, you heard that also, that's

that's against the law.   39:50 Yeah.   39:52 newsflash, that is illegal. It is not funny. I just I don't know why I always I think it's just because I'm so like, what   40:00 outlandish that it's like how can I take this seriously? like someone's literally breaking the   40:04 law? Yeah. So   S:  40:05 besides like, just be a decent person. This is really what you're required to do or also not do, like, don't be asking people their personal questions, you don't have to know the details of a person's ability or disability to do the right thing. And, frankly, to do what's required by law.   40:24 Yeah.   S:  40:25 That's why, you know, I brought up that comparison to color blindness, you know, also like, well, I can't see it, I don't see a difference or whatever. It's not for you to determine.   40:36 Yeah, exactly. It's like, I'm not I'm not asking you whether you can see it or not, I'm telling you, this is what it is, you know, it's like, I don't see that you are mixed race. It's like, I don't care what you've seen, I'm telling you I like   S:  40:48 yeah, matter, or even so like, please don't just count my experience as a non white person, just because you think that I'm not black enough to know the experiences of a black person, or I'm not XYZ enough. Yeah, it isn't for anyone else to decide. So to me, that was the most poignant thing, I was like, oh, my goodness, you know, the experience she went through, but then also relating that to experiences that most of us go through in one way or another, because there's so many different ways that we can think about our identity,   41:23 you know, definitely. But I think it's also interesting, like, just based off of the words she's using in in her interview, you know, she's talking about one experience where I think she was in a boardroom, or in a meeting or something. And she ended up raising an idea, and she's kind of just ignored, but then her one co worker, it sounds like raised that same idea. And then oh, wow, what a good idea. Like, let's do that. But I think hearing her talk about like, you know, there's a key and now I would say, No, you know that that was my idea. But I think that kind of merges into to how we relate, or try and fight some of the labels that are put on us and some of the stereotypes. You know, she was saying at the time, kind of not wanting to fulfill that stereotype of, quote, angry black woman. And like being hyper conscious of it, because like, that's something that's imposed on you. That's not something you've chosen. Right. I thought that was it's interesting, because I think that's probably there's probably similarities there too, especially when it comes to visible or invisible disabilities, because it's like, I don't want to be putting some information out there and have it be weaponized against me. Yeah, or used in a way that actually discredits what I'm telling you. Yeah,   S:  42:38 there can be a comparison there. And the other thing that she was talking about

his being herself at work or trying to be, but being impossible, because if she were to speak her mind at that time, she felt like she could get hit with an angry black woman trope. But then on the other hand, feeling like if she's too closed, if she doesn't say enough, people are saying that, yeah, I just finished a book called I'm still here. And this author talks about that experience. In fact, one of the chapters oh my gosh, it's so powerful. She basically walks through her workday, around the time that she is walking down the hall, and somebody thinks that she's lost and should be going to another area of the building where there's like social services. Oh, and it's her colleague, and two people asking or talking about her hair to her being called into the office because she doesn't express herself enough. She does. She doesn't like fit in because she's not speaking up. And it's just like, that's that's kind of what was coming to mind to me. Mm hmm. You know, can't win for trying.   43:44 Yeah,   S:  43:45 it's like, well, hell, let's not try anymore. Yeah,   43:48 you I am.   43:49 But that makes me think of, you know, you mentioned like, the theme of this season is self care or care. That makes me think like, I recently learned, I didn't know this, but one of my colleagues was telling me the origins of the ideas behind self care. As far as I understand it, it was Audrey Lorde, who was basically like, taking care of oneself as a black woman is an act of political warfare, like it's an act of resistance. It's an act of making sure that you can remain that you no matter what are still standing, what process goes through your mind when your situation like that. It's like, do you fight this person? You know, when it comes to being like, No, actually, I'm not going down to the Social Services Department on your colleague, I'm here. But it's also like, what do you need to do in that moment to take care of yourself because you're, as a woman as a woman of color, you know, as a black woman, like there's all these different fights that you kind of, are unfairly put in your life like all throughout your life, right? So it's like, what can you do in that moment to kind of be as powerful as you can be for yourself? Because I think sometimes it's like easy to punish ourselves. Like when we look back on something and say, Oh, I should have done this like I should have been tougher. I should have shown them that like I can't be walked on or whatever.   S:  44:57 Right which is an awful thing. After You've just experienced the trauma. Yeah, exactly. You know, to add to that with our own self deprecation is no good. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you're able to hang with me for this episode, I thought she brought some really great points. I loved the idea of the dimensions and peeling back those layers. And recognizing that intersectionality doesn't just have to mean this or that it means so many things, because we bring so many things to   45:29 exactly.   45:31 Yeah,   45:31 there's a really good interview. It's really good episode, I   45:33 think. Yeah.   S:  45:35 All right, girl. You'd be safe and take care.   45:37 Thanks. You too. I hope you get a pesto pizza out of this.   S:  45:42 Or some pasta or some   45:43 Yes, something something delicious.   45:47 All right.   45:47 I'll be talking to you soon.   45:49 Ciao for now.   S:  46:00 Thank you, everyone, for hanging out for this episode. You're always welcome. In fact, I encourage you to subscribe if you haven't already. That way you never miss an episode. Here's a little nugget for the future. I will be putting out a special Thanksgiving episode for you. And it will feature you write to me at true colors at Shawna Gann calm and attach a voice memo with what you are grateful for in 2020 we know that there's been so much going on to give heartache. I'd like to focus on things. So send me your Thanksgiving messages, and I'll happily include them in the show. That's all for now. But in the meantime, be safe out there, y'all. Please share a smile with someone and always find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. Love you. I'll   46:44 talk to you soon.   46:50 You've been listening to our true colors.