บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ What Do You Say When There Just Are No Words? A Conversation with Clinical Psychologist Elise Howie

very common occurrence in in our everyday lives, you know. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:17.439 You might have, um well, if I guess if you're fortunate, but I I guess like you might have something, you know, really, really life-altering happen to a close friend or someone you know, like maybe once a year, maybe less. 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:23.279 So we're not very practiced at those responses either. 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:24.560 Yeah. 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.399 I was reflecting on what was going through my mind. 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:35.600 You know, I even have had some kind of back and forths with someone where I was thinking, I I don't even know what to say to that. 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:48.959 Like, how do I even respond without minimizing, you know, like because there are some things that maybe we shouldn't say, we'll get into those, yeah, you know, things that maybe not best to say. 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:54.399 Um we you really just didn't have the words to even respond. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:55.759 Yeah. 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:09.680 I think one of the most we know that as human beings, one of the most important things for us and for our survival is connection. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.879 So it's connection with other people. 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:33.120 And so when there is this, you know, horrific thing that that's happened and there are no words, I um I I always acknowledge that, you know, and say like there's no there's nothing I can say. 00:06:33.839 --> 00:07:01.279 And I think to me that is better than trying to say something that you know is just completely inadequate and also just like recognizing that the most I I believe the most helpful thing that people can do is to be with someone. 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:23.920 So however that looks, whenever you're you know, whenever when you have the opportunity just being with someone without talking, without you know, pressure, without the expectation of like, you know, let's let's talk about what happened, or let's talk about what you need, or let's talk about this. 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:35.279 We know, you know, like research has shown that just being in the you know proximity of other people um is regulating for our nervous system. 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:36.000 Okay. 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:42.560 Um I I had actually uh thought of just saying, look, I I don't know what to say. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.680 Um and then I couldn't think of what to say after that. 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:47.759 I don't know what to say. 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:56.160 Um that's pretty much it. 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.279 And I guess part of it also, I wonder if, you know, especially as a doctor, I want to fix things. 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.160 I want to, I wanna, you know, I I can't fix this. 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:06.800 I can't, you know. 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:13.120 Some I wonder if part of our freezing is also, you know, wanting to help, but just not knowing how to help. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:14.800 Oh, yeah, for sure. 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.000 I think I think that's definitely it. 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:34.559 And also it really brings to mind like how useless we are, you know, like like you said, like we all I think we all have the tendency to want to like I want to make this better, like what can I do to make this better? 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:40.720 But some things are so huge that you can't make it better. 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:46.080 I would say you might aim to make it more bearable for the other person. 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:46.799 Yeah. 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:55.440 Like you can't make it, you can't fix it, but you can be there, I guess, to make it more bearable. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:09:04.240 So, in your situation, did you find it helpful if people just said, you know, something along the lines, I I just want you to know I'm thinking about you or thinking of you? 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:05.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:06.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.919 That was um, that was really helpful. 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:19.200 And I, you know, and there were definitely times where I was too unwell to respond to people, and so I didn't. 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:33.440 So I probably still haven't responded to some people, but um I did, I read every one of those messages, and it helped me, it didn't help me feel better, but it helped me feel held. 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:49.039 And I think there's this concept of there's a concept in therapy of of your therapist as you know holding you in a space of vulnerability and holding you in a space of you know of uh extreme difficulty. 00:09:49.679 --> 00:10:08.559 And so reading those messages reminded me that I was being held by you know friends, family, and and people back home because I was in a hospital in Adelaide, 300 250 kilometres from where I live. 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:15.200 It it yeah, it kind of made me feel like I like the people at home had my back. 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:17.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:24.000 One of the things that um I also thought of saying is something along the lines of you know, I can't imagine. 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:34.639 And then oh I just sound is that something that anyone ever said to you, Oh, I can't imagine what you're going through, or I can't imagine, and is that helpful or not? 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:36.960 Yes, people did they say that to me. 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:38.799 Um, and no, it is not helpful. 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:39.519 Okay, okay. 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:40.639 So it's in the not helpful. 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:43.120 Like good to know. 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:53.120 Personally, for me, that personally wasn't helpful because um it doesn't like just bluntly, it doesn't matter to me if you can imagine it or not. 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:54.399 It's still shit for me. 00:10:54.559 --> 00:11:19.200 Yeah, you know, yeah, like I I couldn't imagine it either before it happened to me, yeah, and then

it happened, and here we are, yeah, you know, so it's the I think um it's it's the you know, I can't imagine, and it's also the yeah, I don't know how you're doing it is another huge thing. 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.600 It's supremely unhelpful. 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:31.200 Yeah, especially as a parent where I a lot of the time felt like I didn't have a choice. 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.440 Like I had to keep doing it. 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:34.960 You just have to do it, yeah. 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:42.320 Like yeah, like I don't know how I'm doing it either, but I have to, so that's a stupid comment. 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:43.759 Sorry. 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:45.759 That goes in that bucket as well. 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:47.919 What about um look? 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:56.960 I I just want you to know I'm thinking of you, and you don't need to respond, you know, please, you know, do what whatever, but you don't need to respond. 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:58.080 Yeah, perfect. 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:16.399 Like, yeah, and that that again goes in that like I am I'm thinking of you, I'm holding you in mind, so you're being held, you're being supported, yeah, but there's no onus on you, you know, crafting some sort of reply in everything that you're going through to reply to me. 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:21.519 But there also the opportunity is there, like if you want to, I'm here, I'm holding you in my mind. 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:22.000 Yep. 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:28.720 Um, but yeah, there's but there's no there's no onus to respond. 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:34.080 Which which brings me to one that we've kind of had a little chat about before, and and I know that I'm guilty of. 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:38.000 If there's anything that you need, please, you know, let me know, reach out. 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:38.799 Yeah. 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:40.080 So this is really interesting. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:48.799 When I was talking to my husband about doing this podcast, he said, he said, like, do you want to know what I think or something? 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.720 And I said, Oh yeah, like that'd be really interesting. 00:12:50.879 --> 00:13:05.120 Because obviously, when I was unwell, he was well, the first time he was alone back here without his wife or child, and the second time he was solo parenting our three-year-old uh for six months while I was in hospital. 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:10.320 And he again he was really well held by friends, family, the community. 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:18.080 But he said, the one thing that I would say is don't say to people if you need anything, reach out, just do the thing. 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:32.000 So he said, I so you know, lots people said that to me, um, and I never reached out, even though it would have been you know really helpful if he like had reached out and it would have been helpful to have extra support. 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:43.759 But he said, you know, it was the friends who just dropped food off or did an order and food just arrived at your door, or you know, said you're coming, you and Charlie are coming over to dinner to dinner tonight at our place. 00:13:44.559 --> 00:14:09.279 That was that was you know infinitely more helpful than the if you need anything, reach out because it's a like and it's a lovely thought, and it is like, yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the sentiment, but again, putting the onus on the person who's struggling, you know, if you need support, then you have to reach out when there's all this other stuff going on, like we can do better than that. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.360 Yeah, we can just do the thing, it's like another thing to manage, yeah. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:14.080 You helping me. 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:14.960 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:31.519 And also, like, people are so and people, you know, I think as adults, uh, and like I don't know, I would describe most of my friends as highly independent people, like we don't say, hey, I'm really struggling. 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.200 And I like even like I was guilty of that recently. 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.840 Um, it's a funny but embarrassing story. 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:40.639 Oh, great. 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:41.200 I love this. 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.039 This is this is what I love you for, at least. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.039 Funny and embarrassing stories. 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:46.159 I'll give you mine. 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:46.799 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:54.000 Um, so I have like a real a like beautiful, really like close group of friends. 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:55.440 We were all in a mother's group. 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:59.360 Well, we made our own mother's group together after we had our um children. 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:01.919 And we catch up for dinner once a month. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.600 Um, and these dinners are like, yeah, great. 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:10.240 We definitely don't, you know, bitch about our husbands or anything during those dinners. 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:11.200 I'm sure you don't. 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:22.320 Um and you know, this one had occurred like in the in the week after a significant event in our community. 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:32.080 Um, and I was kind of like at the stage where I was like, I don't I don't want to hear anything about it, like I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to hear anything about it. 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:41.120 Um, and I was saying to my psychologist like the week before, I was like, If we've got this dinner, like I really like I don't want to hear about it. 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:46.080 And she's like, Well, you could, you know, to like tell your friends like this is the place that you're in, and I'm sure they'd respect that. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.039 And I'm like, Yeah, or like I could just like go to the bathroom and read my book for a bit. 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.559 And she was like, Oh, maybe we'll think about,

you know, is there something else you could do? 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.480 And I was like, Yeah, no, that's all right, I've got it, like, got it under control, it'll be fine. 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:14.480 And the thing is, I didn't want to like I didn't want to put my needs above my friends' needs because I also felt like it was important for them to be able to, you know, debrief and talk to each other and get that support. 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.519 So I was lucky, I accidentally ordered a really hot burger. 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:26.159 So like part way through the conversation, I went inside to get some mayonnaise and I was like, oh, this will take a little while, like I'll go and get it and then bring it. 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:27.840 And then I were like, Oh, we'll bring it to your table. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.159 I was like, oh, that wasted no time at all. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:36.559 I was like, the toilets are just there, I'll just snip in there and read my book. 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.440 So I read my book until I got a text from a friend saying, Are you okay? 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:57.440 And then I um I went back out and re-joined the table and the and the mayonnaise had come so we could talk about the mayonnaise and the burger, and I think there was only a little bit more talk afterwards, but then um that friend kept messaging and saying, like, are you like what's going on? 00:16:57.600 --> 00:16:58.639 Like, are you sure you're okay? 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:05.119 Like you were, you know, you also organized all of your chips into height order during the conversation. 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:06.160 That's a good friend. 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:09.039 I know like I didn't realise that I'd done that. 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:14.640 Um and then and then I responded, I was like, oh, you know, it's like just like a bit much. 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:23.200 Um I didn't like yeah, I I couldn't really handle, you know, hearing more information about it, but um, you know, like it's okay. 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:25.680 And she's like, I really wish you'd said something. 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:31.519 Yeah, and then like looking back, I was like, oh, yeah, like I and they, yeah, I like they would have been fine. 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:40.000 But anyway, that's a long-winded way of saying it is still hard for us to like reach out. 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:46.720 Like that would have been an example of me kind of you know reaching out and saying, Hey, like this is you know not where I'm at right now. 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:51.839 Um but you know, for for better or worse, I didn't. 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:57.759 But yeah, so I think we're just it's it's a tricky skill for us. 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:05.359 I I had that conversation with my husband last night, the same, you know, saying that what your husband has said, what Lawrence had said. 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:10.079 And um he said, absolutely, like, and he and I are very much the same. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.720 Like, we don't even like asking each other for help, right? 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:18.240 Like, am I really gonna reach out to someone to come and do something? 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:19.519 No, probably not. 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:19.920 Yeah. 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:29.200 And I love the idea of just saying, you know, thinking of the things that I can do, it has made me actually reflect on the things that I could offer to someone, you know. 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.839 I could offer an appointment, I could offer, you know, are you are you up to date on your scripts? 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.119 Can I send you your scripts? 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:42.799 Like, you know, any of those things that I can do um rather than just kind of waiting. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:56.720 Yeah, and um I had friends who um it was uh after like it was like maybe month five or six in hospital, and the food had been the same, like is the same the whole time in this like three-week roster. 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:58.720 And I was very sick of it. 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:09.519 And so they cooked me like a week's worth of meals and just brought them into the hospital, we put them in the freezer, put them in the fridge, labelled them for me, um, and everything. 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:11.359 And that was so great. 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:17.279 And I never would have asked them to do that because it seems like oh, you know, ham in this place, I'm getting three meals a day, but I'm sick of them. 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.920 Can you make me some better food? 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.359 But they just did it and it was so appreciated. 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:25.519 Yeah, that's a lovely one. 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.759 Can you think of any other things that we might be able to offer as practical things that people might be able to offer? 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:50.079 I think the you know, the everyday stuff that you know continues regardless of what's happening in your life, like regardless of what's happening, you still need to like get like go to the shop and you still need to cook and you still need to, you know, do those things. 00:19:50.240 --> 00:20:03.200 So I guess like help with those things, or like you know, help in the garden or like taking the dog for a walk or um things like that. 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:37.599 I think just yeah, just like the sort of practical everyday stuff, or like coming over and you know, like, oh do you want me to like organize your something I found really overwhelming was like having to org keep organizing Daphne's clothes because she kept growing growing out of the sizes, and so someone's like, Do you want me to just come over and like organize, you know, like go through the cupboard, put through put all the double zeros here and the triple zeros here, and and that was really helpful because I yeah, couldn't face doing that. 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:57.440 Yeah, we we kind of had a little bit of a discussion

before coming on for the recording about things that we would be willing and happy for people to come into our house because we had talked about, you know, what if someone said, I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna, you know, do your uh change your bedding, wash your bedding, um, you know, do some things like that, clean out your fridge, that kind of thing. 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:07.039 And how I personally that would stress me out like anybody, not even I don't think I was saying I don't even think I want my best friend in my bedroom changing my shades, you know. 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:08.160 But then we could talk to you. 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:17.519 You hate the laundry, so one of the things that you were kind of willing to let go of was maybe you could get a basket of laundry, yeah, Elload, and and then give it to someone. 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.480 Yeah, so if they said, Can I come and grab a basket load of laundry? 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:25.119 Yeah, it would be very, very extenuating circumstances. 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:30.319 Okay, like, but I do hate what like well, I just hate how washing never ends, right? 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:35.599 Like you just keep little kids, and they're such tiny clothes and they get so dirty, yeah. 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.160 And you what clean change them so many times a day. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.400 Um, yeah, I would be willing for that. 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:46.559 I'm also a little bit yeah, I'm I'm on the fence about the bed, about the sheet changing. 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:52.400 But definitely, I think I'd be okay with someone cleaning out my fridge. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.200 Yeah? 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:54.000 Yeah, I think so. 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:58.079 Well, I mean, we've just done it, so um it would be clean anyway, so it wouldn't be. 00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759 Like when it's down to the grotty, like. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.519 Yeah, it's spilled on the picket is never gonna run to the wheel. 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.160 There was a yogurt in there from before Daphne was born. 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:15.599 The other day I pulled up some chilies because I ran up I have um what do you jalapenos on my salad. 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:22.160 Random, but my son had had this other thing of chilies in there and I thought, oh, I'm sure those are in there so you know, dig through. 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:28.160 And then I I talked to one of them and then I thought, oh, I better taste it because they do look a little funny. 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:34.079 And then it tasted like poison and it was bitter and I thought and I didn't even look at the date. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.400 I thought they've been in there for years, so they probably needed to go. 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.160 I am gonna look in your fridge before I could not be there. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:48.640 You know, when I moved, uh what Julie, one of my very best friends, um, helped me move a lot of stuff. 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.480 And she actually, I don't know what's wrong with Julie, but she went through all my spices. 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:54.720 I don't know, maybe people do this, maybe normal people do this. 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:55.599 I do not do this. 00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:00.480 She actually dated, like, got a texture and wrote on them when they were gonna expire. 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.359 And then would she wanted to throw everything that was expired away. 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.279 I'm like, really, do spices expire? 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:05.920 Do they? 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.000 The taste gets real bad. 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:09.200 But I don't know if I can. 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:14.240 I can see, like, yeah, if I had to, I've had to list a person who was gonna date their spices individually. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:16.160 I think she dates her. 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:17.039 She was dating one. 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:18.640 She was not, she was very judgy. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:20.880 She would be. 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:22.880 No, they're gonna keep it. 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.400 The flavour is no good. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:24.799 Okay. 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:26.720 I've never noticed. 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:33.119 Because you've been using, you've probably never used brand new spices, and if you use a brand new spice, you'll be blown out of this world. 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.039 Well, maybe, yeah, maybe that's a good point. 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:35.599 Yeah. 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:37.200 But back to what we were talking about. 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:42.480 Um, one of the other things that um, like you said, the shops, and I thought that would be so useful. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:48.160 Things like that run out, like your bread and your butter, um, your milk, that or butter, margarine, whatever. 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.559 Because then I said to you, well, you know, things like that would be, and you're like, well, but then what about what milk? 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.079 What if they're lactose intolerant? 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:54.640 You don't know. 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:55.519 Like, oh my gosh. 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:55.839 Yeah. 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.039 So maybe just ask. 00:23:57.200 --> 00:23:58.400 Yeah, I think ask. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.440 Um, and because again, like you're not um. 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:05.519 And I think again, phrase it as, not as I'm at the shops, do you need anything? 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:09.359 Phrase it as, I'm at the shops, I'm gonna get you bread, milk, butter. 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:10.880 What type of milk? 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:12.640 Do you have bread preference? 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:14.319 Do you use butter or margarine? 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:14.720 Yeah. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.559 Um, and that is just like a bang, bang, bang, done. 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:27.759 It's not a like, oh well, we need milk, but I don't want them to think that I'm completely

useless, so like I'll just say, like, no, it's okay, and then I'll just, you know, have water on our cereal instead. 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:32.079 Like, but yeah, you do you cut like yeah. 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:40.720 I think I think uh yeah, and I think asking is helpful because like you don't want to end up with like eight litres of milk if you're lactose intolerant. 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:41.599 Yeah, exactly. 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:42.880 Because that's not helping. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.799 And is there anything else while I'm here? 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:49.279 And and I can drop it on the the front porch, you don't even need to come to the door. 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.720 Yeah, just drop it and go. 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:51.759 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:59.359 Because that that's probably the last thing you want to do when, especially in a small community, when everyone probably you feel like everyone probably knows you're going through something. 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.720 Yeah, you don't want to have those conversations, want to run into people. 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.240 Yeah, yeah. 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:10.000 I that I really struggled with that because I love going to the shops normally. 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.319 Like I love going through the look on your face. 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:17.759 I with the kids though, yeah. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:19.759 I actually I don't mind it with the kids, yeah. 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:28.880 Um it's just a nice outing, you know, like you get to go and like look at things, and then sometimes halfway through I'm about to abandon my trolley and just leave. 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:34.079 The kids in the um, but no, like we have fun. 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:50.160 But that was but yeah, it was whenever I was I was home for a weekend um or home for a bit, like I I really wanted to go to the shop because it's something that I love doing, but I really didn't want to have the conversations with people. 00:25:50.319 --> 00:26:02.319 But I think probably the hard one, and it's really tricky because I I do really I did really value this at the time, but um people asking, like, how are you going? 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:14.000 Because I yeah, it's it was like I'm not gonna tell you in Woolworths how I'm actually going. 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:14.559 Yeah. 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:18.319 But it was it was really it was kind because people were like inquiring after me. 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.440 And again, it was that thing of like you know, I've been thinking of you, like how are you going? 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:32.720 But like again, if you think the answer is obvious, perhaps don't ask how are you going? 00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:42.720 Yeah, because I mean, if we say actually this has been the absolute worst experience of my life, and I can't think of anything worse, people don't really know what to say. 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:53.839 But if you say, Yeah, you know, going okay,

you say that for you to make you know, you don't say that for you, sorry, you say that for the other person. 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:54.240 Yeah. 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:55.839 That's to make them feel comfortable. 00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:56.640 Yes. 00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:58.000 Which is an added stress. 00:26:58.240 --> 00:26:58.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.079 Again, managing their emotions. 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:02.480 Yeah, yeah, and you don't like, and you don't have to do that. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:10.400 So I really yeah, I did really struggle at the supermarket, yeah, having my sort of happy place be like taken over a bit. 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:17.279 Also at the supermarket because like ECT causes pretty severe memory loss. 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.359 I would just buy the same things over and over again. 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:21.359 Yes, I do remember the bananas. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:22.640 Oh, was it bananas? 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:23.759 I don't remember that. 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:25.440 I remember like a lot of bananas. 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:26.160 Yeah, that's right. 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:26.960 Yeah, we did. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:39.359 And we had like 12 bananas or something, but um, we also had like four packets of frozen like roti in the like in the freezer because like every time I would go to the shop, they just get I don't want like I don't know what we don't eat that much curry. 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:48.319 Like I don't know when we're gonna but so yeah, we we had like for a long time we just we yeah, we had just triples of everything um yeah in the house. 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:53.440 I think yeah, not yeah, just not not asking like how you're going. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:02.720 Because if you can infer, think to yourself before you ask, think to yourself, if you can infer that the answer is going to be, you know, or the answer's likely going to be terrible. 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:04.160 And something they don't want to talk about. 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:05.920 Yeah, and just will work. 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:07.200 Like, just don't say it. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:07.519 Yeah. 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:14.079 So otherwise we think of another, yeah, let's think of something else, because that's an and like really natural reaction to when you see someone, isn't it? 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:15.680 Hey, oh I'm sending an age. 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:16.319 How are you going? 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.400 Yeah, shit, I shouldn't have said that. 00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.839 Often we don't even like mean it, like it's just automatic, right? 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:23.599 It is like, yeah, hey, how are you going? 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:24.000 Yeah. 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:29.039 But like it's more of a just more of a saying than a you know, how are you actually going? 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:39.119 Because like no one, I don't think anyone oh actually, I was gonna say, like, because I'm a clinical psychologist, it's a bit biased because I do ask people how you're going, and they do actually tell me. 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.200 Because I was gonna say, like, no, yeah. 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:52.880 No one's I was gonna say, no one's actually ever said that no, no one outside of a work setting, I think, has ever gone, you know, like oh, you know, actually this has been horrific. 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:56.799 Um, and I don't know how I'm waking up every day. 00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:59.440 So let's think of something better to say. 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.079 Um, so I would say, what would have been helping me? 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.400 So I would say, like, I've been thinking of you. 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:07.279 Yep. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:19.519 Um maybe just say because then I think the the issue is if you don't ask, if you don't ask like how are you going, then you feel like you should ask, is there anything I should do? 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:19.839 Yeah. 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:23.680 Because that's kind of the like the thing that comes up. 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:24.240 Yeah. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:34.640 I mean the other thing is like you can give the person a hug, you can say, you know, I've been thinking of you, and you don't really have to say anything else. 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:35.599 Yeah. 00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:36.640 I wouldn't think. 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:37.359 Yeah. 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:38.640 Yeah. 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:44.160 And if that and just and again, like I think the biggest thing is to follow their lead. 00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:46.079 So follow the other person's lead. 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:46.799 Yeah. 00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:52.960 So if they say like, oh, things have been really tough, then you can say, how are you going? 00:29:54.079 --> 00:30:03.599 But if they you know don't say anything, or if they yeah, that that is just yeah, that's what I think would have been helpful. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:04.559 Yeah. 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:05.839 That's a hard one. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:19.839 It is it's really hard because yeah, we do we do just feel like but but if we if we sort of drill down on the function, and that's something we do a lot in psychology, is what's the function of this behaviour? 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:27.920 And so in this case, this is a like this is a standard greeting that we say, yeah. 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.000 Um what's the yeah, what's the function of it? 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:33.039 Yeah. 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:40.079 Because sometimes sometimes you don't even answer it or like it's just like a Yeah, it is just it's it's a reflex. 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:40.400 Yeah. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:41.680 When you think of a better reflex. 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:42.559 Where are you going? 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:42.880 Yeah. 00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:44.000 Yeah. 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.119 Okay, well, let's talk about maybe some things. 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.160 We we've kind of touched on those

things, things that aren't helpful. 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:55.359 Um what do you think was the most unhelpful thing someone may have said to you? 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.240 Um, I was thinking about this. 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:18.079 I think it didn't happen very often, and like people were generally like pretty good about it, but there were a couple of like oh yeah, my uh uncle's cousin's half-brother's sister also had postnatal depression and she got better. 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:33.039 Great! So good for her, um, or like, or then thinking that yeah, thinking that I am interested in every case of postnatal depression with psychosis that ever has occurred. 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:33.920 Oh gosh. 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:35.920 Yeah um gosh. 00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.400 Yeah, and again, it's the same, it's the same thing. 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:52.000 Like, don't I would not go to someone here who's experienced anything like the death of their dog or you know the death of the mother and say, actually, I used to work with a woman whose dog died once, and that was really hard. 00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:01.200 Because we just have this, I don't know, we have a tendency to want to like I guess it comes from a place of peep like wanting people to know they're not alone. 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:01.759 Yeah. 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.599 So it comes from a good place. 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:06.160 Yeah, it's supremely unhelpful. 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:07.519 Unless. 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:19.119 Because I think you had said something before, like in that talk, something about, oh, you know, I know I know how you must feel, or something along those lines you're like, uh, actually. 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:21.200 Yeah, I really don't think you do. 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:21.599 Yeah. 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.279 But what if it were someone who went through the a very similar thing? 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.559 Would that then be helpful? 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:28.079 Like for instance, yeah. 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.680 I think like if someone had gone through it, they would notice to not say, I know how you feel. 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:34.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:35.039 Okay. 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:42.480 So I would say if someone, you know, if there was someone I met who was going through a similar thing, like I would say, you know, I went through something similar. 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.880 Here's my number if you ever want to talk. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:45.519 Okay. 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:46.400 Yeah. 00:32:46.799 --> 00:33:04.960 Because yeah, I wouldn't like if I also met someone, like, or if I had met someone who'd gone through postnatal psychosis at Woolies or anywhere, like I wouldn't say to them, like in the shop, like, oh, so like was your delusion also about how your baby wasn't real? 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:12.559 Or like, you know, how many sessions of ECT did it take you to get better, or what many like I wouldn't, you know,

go into that. 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:18.799 Like, if I'm going to talk about it, I want to do it in a private, more private setting. 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:19.440 Yeah. 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:36.400 And yeah, if you like, unless you have experienced the exact same thing in the exact same circumstances at the exact same time, and you are the exact same person, do not say I know how you feel. 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:37.759 Because you don't. 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:38.400 Yeah. 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.400 Because no, yeah, no one does. 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:47.279 And I think people who have gone through stuff know not to say, I get that. 00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:48.640 Yeah, I know how you feel. 00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:07.119 Yeah, I guess um I was thinking along the lines of maybe not your specific thing, but that you know, something that someone's gone through, um, and letting them know that you may have had a similar experience, I guess as a way of connection. 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:13.280 And um again, maybe not in woolies, I mean not in detail or maybe, you know, uh, I don't know. 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:36.480 I to me it seems like I don't know if I were on the other side of that, if someone said so, for instance, my my dad took his own life, and sometimes I share that with people when they've had something like that, because I think that, like you said, they they think nobody gets this, nobody understands this, but I think I probably have a better understanding because I've gone through it too. 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:39.840 Is that yeah, do you see what I'm saying? 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:50.480 So there are circumstances when that might be appropriate, and I guess also that whole follow-one if you ever want to talk, yeah, you know, I've been through something similar, yeah, then I'd be very happy to listen. 00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:51.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. 00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:04.800 Yeah, I think I think connecting, and yeah, it it's definitely like okay to share, but not definitely not in the first instance. 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:22.719 And again, it comes from the like, you know, you would never again if someone's talking to you about their dad or something, you would never hijack the conversation and say, like, oh, actually, I know exactly what you're talking about because I went through the exact same thing, blah blah blah blah blah blah. 00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:30.000 Yeah, it's very different to like I actually went through the same thing, you know, I understand it's really complicated. 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.760 Um, I yeah, these are my uh details if you ever want to chat further. 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:38.159 I guess one minimizes, doesn't it? 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:49.039 Yeah, one yeah, one is sort of taking over, like my experience is more important, and that's kind of what it when people would say, like, oh, you know, um, such and such, she had

postnatal depression. 00:35:49.119 --> 00:36:04.159 I'm like, like, okay, yeah, okay, you know, that sucks for her, but um it's yeah, it really doesn't mean a lot to me unless it is a close friend. 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:04.960 Yeah. 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.559 Maybe yeah, I guess, yeah, I guess it would be a close friend. 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:12.079 Um, but it's funny. 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:29.039 I talk I talk about this stuff with a friend uh who I met when I was in hospital um in Adelaide, and we both had sort of similar amounts of um ECT at about the same time, and we just talk about all of the the stupid stuff that people say to us. 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:40.880 And we got this like run in the chat of like, oh my god, you won't believe what like blah blah and and then like oh did you know that because we both can't remember hanging out with each other, but did you know that we did this on this date when we did this? 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:52.559 And yeah, but one a big one was like because we both had yeah, pretty severe memory loss, like people telling us that they're forgetful too, and it's like yes. 00:36:52.800 --> 00:37:12.159 I'm sorry, unless you have forgotten that you have children or your own birthday, or like woken up and thought that it was four years earlier than what it is, or can't remember buying bananas or flour or roti, you do not understand. 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.199 This is not just a bad memory. 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.519 This is yeah, different. 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:19.599 I wonder where that comes from. 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:23.360 I think it's like I I get but again, I think it's a like you're not alone. 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:23.760 Yeah. 00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:25.440 So, which is lovely. 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:32.400 Um also because I have such strong opinions about what is and isn't helpful, do you think no one's gonna want to talk to me after this? 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:38.639 I think you've made it very clear so far. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.760 What's up, what's about? 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:59.280 Um I but I I think again, like it comes from and all of this stuff, like whether it's helpful or unhelpful, all of this stuff comes from a like a good place because people want to help, people want to understand, and people wanna people want others to know that they're not alone, which is yeah, so important. 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:09.440 It's just the some of the I guess the more nuanced the more nuanced part of the communication of that. 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:25.760 And and I think again, like not being afraid to approach people who are going through something, even though yeah, again, I've made it sound very scary, but but again, like you can't yeah, you can't go wrong with saying like there are no words, I'm here. 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.840 I'm thinking of you, I love you, yep, I'm holding you, I'm here. 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:31.519 And exactly what you just said. 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:34.320 I I want to help, I want to understand. 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:36.639 Yeah, I have no words. 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:37.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.840 And you yeah, you can rarely go wrong with like honesty. 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:42.320 Yeah. 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:47.760 Because it like because yeah, it's okay that there are no words because there aren't words, there aren't words for everything. 00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:48.960 That's exactly right. 00:38:50.320 --> 00:39:05.599 Um, I think also we've kind of had a little bit of a conversation about um maybe not asking for you know the details, you know, there's a line at which you just having a little bit of um what's that what do you call it? 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:06.480 Respect. 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:07.119 Yeah. 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.320 Like you know, you don't need to ask. 00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:12.239 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:13.519 Um what's it called? 00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:16.079 It's called like there's a word for it. 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:17.599 I can't remember it. 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:29.519 But when I think again, like following the person's lead, you know, if they some people will be in a spot where they need to sit down and they need to talk about everything that happened in detail. 00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:29.840 Yeah. 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:35.360 Um, other people won't do that for 10 or 20 years, other people might never do that. 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:37.519 But following their lead, yeah. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:43.920 So, you know, you certainly like you don't expect any details, you don't need any details. 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:50.559 If details are what the person wants to give you, then you're there for them and you hold them in that moment. 00:39:51.360 --> 00:40:00.719 And again, it's the same, I think it's the same with like particularly when someone has died, feeling afraid to bring them up in conversation. 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.719 Yeah, that's a big one, isn't it? 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.199 Like because you're like, I don't want to upset the person. 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:19.599 But my response to that is always, and you know, people um who I've seen before have had a loved one die, you know, will say like people are acting like they were never alive. 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:19.840 Yeah. 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:21.599 And that is heartbreaking. 00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:22.000 Yeah. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:37.360 So again, follow the person's lead, but you know, don't be afraid to like send them a text if you see something that makes you think of the person, or like, you know, the funny thing happened this morning. 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:48.480 I was you know, I saw a double rainbow and I know how much such and such love double rainbows, or um yeah, or like I was just thinking of the time where you know, or you know, text a photo to them. 00:40:49.519 --> 00:41:05.199 Because I think when people can live on in other I

think it sends a really powerful message to people going through grief and bereavement that other that you know the person can live on not just in your memories, but in, you know, the memories of you know, hundreds of people. 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:06.239 Absolutely. 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:20.079 And that that goes to one of the other things that that I mentioned um before we started recording is about how you know that period when your life is still devastated, but the rest of the world has kind of just moved on. 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.320 Like I I just remember with both my mom and my dad. 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:28.880 Like, how does the world just keep moving and I'm still here? 00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:37.760 Like, yeah, so I think it would be helpful, those things that are, you know, I remember your mom used to love this song, or that you know this was her favorite perfume. 00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.920 I I would even smell her perfume and be reminded of her. 00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:42.880 Yeah, yeah. 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.039 So I'm glad to hear that. 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:49.679 How nice to get those, you know, little like glimmers. 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.559 Yeah. 00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:54.320 And I really I like the notion, I really like the notion of glimmers as well. 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:55.199 Have you had glimmers? 00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:55.519 No. 00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.840 So glimmers are like glimmers are kind of the opposite of triggers, right? 00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:00.159 Okay. 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:20.320 So instead of something being like triggering and really difficult, a glimmer is something that is really small and might happen, you know, there might be like 10 that happen in a day, but they, when you're going through a really hard time, the glimmers are the are the things that you can look at to get them through. 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:38.960 So, like I had a I had a list of glimmers on my wall in hospital, and one of them was the butter on my toast in the morning because I had gone um I'd gone to the supermarket and bought butter instead of using those stupid little hospital margarine packets. 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:42.000 So I'd bought butter, and that was, you know, that was a glimmer. 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:46.559 And it wasn't anything that made me go as I was eating it, like, oh, this is amazing, I feel better. 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:54.400 But it was like, this is one thing that reminds me that you know, perhaps not everything is the worst. 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:54.880 Yeah. 00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:03.280 So, and another one was um the noises that my daughter made when she was feeding, the little feeding grunts and noises. 00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:12.639 Uh, another one was the specific Milo that one of the nurses would make, she'd make this Milo that was just the best Milo in the world. 00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:13.920 And that was another one. 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.719 So just like little things like

that. 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:25.119 And I think again, like receiving a text message from a friend about you know, such and such, I think that would be a really nice glimmer. 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:25.519 Yeah. 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:34.480 And so maybe that's a that's another good thing to keep in mind is if you are struggling to know how to support someone going through something huge, think about glimmers. 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:40.639 Like, are there any glimmers that you can facilitate, you know, or that you can help? 00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:45.360 But not that oh, be grateful for the sun today, right? 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.000 Today is going to be a great day. 00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:49.519 Look at that sunshine. 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:51.039 Just be grateful, yeah. 00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:51.679 Yeah, all right. 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:54.880 Great Karen, I'm glad that the sun's out. 00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.079 I still feel that shit, but the sun is shining. 00:43:58.559 --> 00:43:59.760 Yeah, maybe a little bit of a different. 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:00.559 Yeah. 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.159 Between glimmer and and just advice. 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:04.639 I don't know. 00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:11.679 What if an advice that's like very unasked for direction. 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:12.320 It's directions. 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.840 And it also minimizes it as well. 00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:17.199 Oh, well, just be grateful that you know you still have running water. 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:19.840 Think about other starving children in Africa. 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:20.719 That's right. 00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:46.960 Um, another thing I think that is important is there is research that has shown that in the period, you know, the one to two years after something really big has happened for someone, there is something called friendship grief, which is where friends relationships drop off and back away because people don't know what to do. 00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:55.039 And also it can be hard, like it can it can be like it's hard to be around someone else's pain. 00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:55.440 Yeah. 00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.000 Like that's kind of my job, but like when a lot of your job. 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:17.760 But um, you know, when you and you can you can see that, you know, like when people want to when people choose to catch up with a friend, they're like, oh, you know, it's gonna be like really I can catch up with this friend who's like going through this huge thing, or I can catch up with this friend who like has just run a marathon and like you hear about the marathon. 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:18.800 So that's like let's go. 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:30.800 So there is this sort of drop-off of of friendships, which is really sad, but I think good to know so you can make sure that it doesn't happen to you. 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:43.440 If you're on the the person that's dropping off or if you're yeah, if you're like if you uh if you are

friends with someone who's gone through this really like a really big thing, yeah, don't be that relationship that drops off. 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:55.360 Because I like I did I've yeah would say I lost a fair few friendships just from not really being myself for six or nine months. 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:55.760 Yeah. 00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.400 And like people, you know, like depressed people aren't that fun to be around. 00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:01.119 Yeah. 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:07.679 So and friends, and it's hard to know as well because I think your friendships change after you have children and you know, move away and everything. 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:14.800 But there are certainly, yeah, people who I I was a lot better friends with before last year. 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:22.960 I and I could see this happening because I like in the beginning, so something happens, but like in your case, you know, maybe they've heard that some this has happened. 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:23.119 Yeah. 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:27.519 And then you're like, oh, okay, oh, but I don't even what do I even say? 00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:34.800 Okay, okay, well, I'll I'll I'll maybe tomorrow I'll send her a message, and then tomorrow, ooh, yeah, no, uh, I still don't know what to say. 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:38.559 Leave it a week, yeah, a month, three months, yeah, shit. 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:39.519 And then it's too late. 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.800 Yeah, there's a point where you think, I can't even face this person now. 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:44.079 And how sad is that? 00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:44.400 Yeah. 00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.719 And that's what we're kind of trying to avoid here, isn't it? 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:49.599 So that yeah, we don't have those drop-offs. 00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:50.159 Yeah. 00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:50.719 Yeah. 00:46:50.960 --> 00:47:10.800 And I was, I think something that something that I did differently, like between when I was unwell after my first after my first child and unwell after my second child, I was really not ashamed, but I was I was very hesitant of what people would think about having undergone ECT because there's such a poor public perception of it. 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:11.360 Yep. 00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:18.000 Side note, if you ever talk to anyone who has gone e gone through ECT, don't bring up One Floor Over the Cuckoo's Nest. 00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.000 Oh did someone bring that up? 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:21.199 So many times. 00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:24.239 ECT, like they did in One Floor Over the Cuckoo's Nest. 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:25.599 Oh wow. 00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:28.719 Yeah, a bit different, but similar. 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:32.239 So I I didn't I didn't on the stupid list. 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:33.360 I was so stupid. 00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:34.480 Way on the stupid list. 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:34.639 Okay. 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:36.000 Probably not friends with that person anymore. 00:47:36.159 -->

00:47:37.119 I kind of remember all this. 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:47.920 Um and so the second time I was kind of like, well, this is really shit, but I'm just gonna be honest with people. 00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:53.920 And so I was a lot more open, I was a lot more honest, I did a lot more like um, you know, Instagram, Facebook posts. 00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:57.440 I was gonna ask, like, what what was you were so open about it. 00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:02.320 Was it because you're in a small community you know people are talking, or like what what was behind that? 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:17.599 Um partially because I yeah, part of it was being in a small community, so I knew that people would know anyway, and I didn't want them to have the wrong information. 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:18.400 Yes. 00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:33.599 But also I think it's a pretty unique position to be in to experience you know something that like happens in two to three percent of pregnancies, um, like postnatal psychosis. 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:51.360 And also I did a bit about like it was infuriating to me the um the like people posting about the you know the newborn bubble and how amazing motherhood is and how great it is because uh it just wasn't what it was for me. 00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:58.639 Um and that's not like you know, that's like everyone people who have those experiences like that's amazing for them and absolutely like keep posting about it. 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:10.480 But it was kind of like you know, they you have these you have people posting the newborn bubble in this phase, and then you know, I my child is six weeks old and I've been electrocuted eight times. 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:11.199 Yeah. 00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:15.920 So um it was yeah, it was to present a different view, I guess. 00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:20.000 For those people who don't have the newborn bubble, yes, and I would imagine there's a fair few who don't. 00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:24.079 I think the I don't I don't know if the newborn bubble exists, but that's a that's for another podcast. 00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:25.360 Six weeks, man. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:26.639 Yeah. 00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:36.639 Um, yeah, and also just like to raise awareness as well, because and and lots of people, you know, I've had so many people come up to me and say, like, I found it really helpful. 00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:47.840 Like I and also the fact that I was so open about it then made people more relaxed and open to talking with me about it. 00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:57.760 So it meant that like I didn't have to pretend with people, which was really helpful at a time when I was yeah, when things were tricky. 00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:58.400 Yeah. 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.480 And I I don't know how if you're comfortable sharing it. 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:08.079 We you did mention you had a friend who had cancer and that whole drop-off thing. 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:35.760 Yeah, so one of my best friends died from ovarian

cancer in uh six years ago, and she was unwell for a pretty long time, but she I'm I remember she also struggled with you know relationships and friendships that dropped off during times when she, you know, wasn't well. 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:53.679 Um people were also very hesitant to talk to her about dying because there was a yeah, there was a point probably for the last year of her life she was she was palliative and people, yeah, people were very yeah, didn't didn't really want to talk about dying. 00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:56.239 I helped her choose her coffin. 00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:03.760 I uh went out to the shops and bought her like memory boxes that she could make up for like friends and family. 00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.079 Um, I think I witnessed her will. 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:18.159 I hope because again, it was one of those things where this is happening regardless of whether we ignore it or not, so we can you know bring it out in the open and and talk about it. 00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:20.960 So she was willing and wanting to talk about it. 00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:21.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:22.239 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:37.679 Because I think like I think it was it was tricky because and and it's completely understandable that you don't want to talk about dying, and like it was hard for me, but like we also kind of made it a bit funny and made some jokes about it. 00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:43.679 Like as you would you can bring humour to any situation if you really want to. 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:58.880 So yeah, that was that's yeah, I guess another example of like and it and it doesn't it doesn't change like that's the thing, your behaviour doesn't change anything about what is happening or has happened. 00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:13.599 So, you know, say for example if you're going through something really tricky and I do or don't message you, that doesn't change the fact that you still feel the way you do, and there's still this huge issue that you are going through. 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:31.280 But if I message you and say, you know, I'm I'm here for you, there are no words, then you are still going through that really tricky thing, but maybe it feels, you know, one millionth of a gram lighter than it did before. 00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:32.079 Yeah. 00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:48.480 And I think you also made the point, a very good point, about if we all go, oh, maybe I just won't because you know, I'm sure there's a hundred people messaging right now, and then if everybody feels that, then then that person feels like nobody cares because nobody's messaging. 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:54.960 Yeah, yeah, and that's like that just makes me feel sick that that would ever happen to someone. 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:57.360 So let's not do that. 00:52:57.679 --> 00:52:58.320 Yeah. 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:05.039 Um, okay, well, is there anything else that we uncovered? 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:08.000 I just like to say I'm actually a really nice person. 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:10.320 I can vouch for that. 00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:15.280 And if you say something stupid to me, I'm not gonna say it to your face. 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:25.760 But no, I think I think the I think I want I'd really like the takeaways to be like the think about this idea of holding someone. 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:39.440 So at the moment we want, you know, like we want anyone who's going through anything really significant to feel like they're being held by you know their community, their family, their friends. 00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:40.079 Yeah. 00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:44.320 And also just being with is really important. 00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:47.840 Yeah, you know, you can't go wrong with following their lead. 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:49.679 I think following people's lead. 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:50.159 Yeah. 00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:55.360 And don't give them, don't make them do the work in reaching out. 00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:55.920 Yeah. 00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:58.960 Manage your emotions or manage your how you're gonna help them. 00:53:59.199 --> 00:53:59.679 Yeah, yeah. 00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:00.400 Yeah, exactly. 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:11.360 And and yeah, again, like what you do or don't do doesn't change the fact that there is still this, you know, enormously huge situation going on for them. 00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:19.119 So you can either, you know, show up for them and be there for them, or you can drop off, which we don't want. 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:19.760 No. 00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:26.880 And if you had s have said something stupid, yeah, you're like, oh shit, that's in the stupid bottle. 00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:28.480 Own it. 00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:39.840 Could could you just message and say, I am so sorry that I recognize that that came across totally not how I wanted it to, and I just don't know what to say. 00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:40.960 Yeah, absolutely. 00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:50.559 I think, and again, like I think owning it, you know, is huge like, oh, I was thinking about you know, I was thinking about this and I just don't feel right about what I said. 00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.519 I want you to know that, yeah, like I'm thinking of you. 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:54.880 And I'm doing the best I can. 00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:55.679 Yeah, exactly. 00:54:55.840 --> 00:55:00.480 Because there's no like there's no rule book or manual for this. 00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:13.039 So like all we can do is just yeah, be with people, not only in this like you know, in the acute phase, but like in all the years to come. 00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:25.920 Yeah, anniversaries or birthdays or special events or yeah, not not hesitating, like you said before, to say something about it or send it a you know, photo or a glimmer or whatever. 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:27.360 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:41.840 And you can put reminders in your phone even to to acknowledge an anniversary or birthday

or yeah because those are probably the most if you've lost someone, those can be especially in those first few years. 00:55:42.239 --> 00:56:04.800 I think yeah, the first 12 months um is typically described as the most difficult, whether or not it's it's hard with um grief and bereavement because uh it's very hard to do research on people experiencing grief and bereavement because I don't really want to be asked by a psychologist. 00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:05.679 Yeah, in your moment. 00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:07.840 Yeah, in your moment of grief and bereavement. 00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:15.599 And also like if we can't do like animal models of it either because mice don't appear to feel grief. 00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:23.119 Um so we don't, yeah, and and also there's a lot of grief research that is quite out of date now. 00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:37.360 But yeah, they do say that the first 12 months is the hardest, which makes sense because it's you know the most, it's the closest to the time, but also it's the first, it's the year of firsts, and once you kind of get through the firsts. 00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:52.000 Um and I also like I really found that with like I celebrated, I felt really strange the year that when it was 12 months since I had been admitted last admitted to hospital. 00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:57.280 Like that was a strong I didn't I did not think that that was gonna be a strong thing for me. 00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:58.960 But but it's an anniversary. 00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:00.239 It was an anniversary, yeah. 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:08.320 And so I like yeah, I did something nice with the kids and then I think I think we went out to dinner, celebrate. 00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:10.000 Yeah, as you should. 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:10.719 Yeah. 00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:22.079 I just uh went through our uh CWA little goodie bag the other day that they gave us, and uh there was a little uh pamphlet in there called uh Ten Things to Know About Grief. 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:22.800 Oh, amazing. 00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:26.159 Which I um have taken off, taken a few of these resources to my office. 00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:42.480 But um, I just it reminded me of it because one of the 10 things was about social connections and support, and it talks about due to the awkwardness or their own feelings of grief, some people may not be able to provide the understanding and caring that you expect from them. 00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:47.199 Because all of the relationships in your life will be altered in some way after a major loss. 00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:51.360 It is normal to look at change or sometimes the end of certain relationships. 00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:54.320 So yeah, I guess that kind of goes along for what you said. 00:57:54.719 --> 00:58:00.239 And as you said, what we're trying to avoid is some of that drop-off of those some of those relationships that don't need to drop off. 00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:02.239 Yeah, and then I mean that's the other thing. 00:58:02.400

--> 00:58:20.800 Like if you if you want if you feel like you can't manage those feelings of grief for whatever reason, then rather than you know, message the person and say, like, let's catch up for coffee or you know, I'm coming over to visit you, do the bread milk thing. 00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:29.199 Yeah, like do the more hands-off support until you feel that you're in a place where you can more provide that support. 00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:42.480 Because that's the thing, like we don't all need to provide emotional support, like and you can yeah, you can just do those more practical things until you get to a spot where you feel more able to do it. 00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:43.440 Yeah. 00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:54.320 I had lots of things just pop into my head and think, you know, things that you could do depending on, you know, like if you're a hairdresser, I could come and you know give you a blow dry or you know, wouldn't it be amazing? 00:58:56.079 --> 00:58:57.039 I'm a masseuse. 00:58:57.199 --> 00:58:58.159 Yes, yes, please. 00:58:58.320 --> 00:58:58.559 Okay. 00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:01.280 Like I can do nails, I can do nails really well. 00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:02.320 Let me come and do your nails. 00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:03.360 Want a pedicure? 00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:07.599 Like, yeah, there's so many, yeah, there's lots of options. 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:14.320 Sometimes I wish that I had a profession where I could like provide more like hands-on things. 00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:22.079 Like, I wish I was an electrician and I could be like, I'm gonna come over and you know, do what electrician I don't know what do what electricians do. 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:23.440 Put a new light in for you. 00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:25.920 Give you a new downlight. 00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:36.800 Or like, you know, yeah, or like a hairdresser or something, like something you could be like that's concrete that's like, oh no, I can I can give you general advice and provide you with six to ten sessions of therapy. 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:38.320 Might feel a bit better. 00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:42.320 But no, no, what you're gonna be very good at is not saying stupid things or dropping off. 00:59:42.559 --> 00:59:42.639 See? 00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:44.480 Yeah, that's my gift. 00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:53.440 And also watch the whole community shy away from talking to me because they're so worried that I've said something stupid. 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:55.920 No, no, don't be don't be afraid to talk to me. 00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:56.880 I'm a lovely person. 00:59:57.039 --> 00:59:58.000 She's actually very nice. 00:59:58.159 --> 00:59:58.719 Yeah. 00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:06.079 Well, I have really enjoyed this conversation uh as much as you can around, you know, the topic that we've had uh talked about today. 01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:07.199 I think it's really important. 01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:18.000 I think I'm I'm hopeful that people will at least get them to thinking about what they can do so that they don't drop off and you know how they can manage these situations. 01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:25.280 So thank you so much for showing up today and um enjoying our very windy weather out in the sunroom. 01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:28.159 So you're one of three people, I think. 01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:32.480 You're the third person I've had in the sunroom for an interview, so you should feel very privileged. 01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:33.440 I do. 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:35.360 I'm wondering why I wasn't number one. 01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:37.440 But anyway, we can talk about that. 01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:39.199 Yeah, we can talk about the phone there. 01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:49.440 After Elisa and I finished that conversation and we shut off the mics, we continued on, as you might imagine, and just had a little bit more of a chat. 01:00:49.599 --> 01:01:04.639 And one of the things that came up that we really didn't stress too much during the main chat was the impact on those around us when we're going through something, you know, pretty hard. 01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:25.679 And in Elisa's case, that would have been, you know, her husband who was kind of holding down the fort and also would have been, you know, quite stressed and worried about his wife and you know what was going to happen, those kinds of things, and and busy trying to coordinate her and the kids and you know, life in general. 01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:35.280 So just one of the things I just wanted to point out is to remember the people who are supporting the person, who are you know directly involved in that support. 01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:46.000 And you know, maybe there are things that we can do to take the load off of them as well, or you know, maybe be a sounding board, or you know, give them someone to debrieve with as well. 01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:54.719 So let's not forget those who are on the front lines um supporting those people that we care about as well. 01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:58.000 And with that, I I hope it's was useful. 01:01:58.159 --> 01:02:05.039 I I really always enjoy my chats with Elise, as again, you might imagine, great sense of humor. 01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:16.880 And I hope that this has helped some of you navigating some of the things that you're going through at the moment uh or that people you care about are going through at the moment. 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:20.400 I hope that you all have a fantastic week. 01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:23.679 And until then, I hope you opt to thrive. 01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:29.599 The Opt to Thrive podcast is designed for information purposes only and is not engaged in the giving of medical advice. 01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:34.400 The information provided on the podcast should not be used for diagnosing or treating a health problem of a disease. 01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:42.800 In no way should the information provided from up to thrive be considered medical advice, and at all times the advice of a medical professional should do perceived recommendations from up to thrive. 01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:46.880 If you have you may have a health problem, you should consider your health care provider. 01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:51.039 If you express this, you're looking at any way.