บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Why Practice Public Speaking?: Interview with Natalie Bullen

so damn much alike in so many ways. It is really, really funny except for when it comes to the persistence and diligence and all of the things around finance, which is one of the reasons why I go to her and go, Natalie, help Natalie: 00:03:23 me please. So thank you Kirsten: 00:03:25 for coming on the podcast. I want everybody to, you know, kind of see the joy that is the true personality. So, You have been talking with me about kind of your goals for stages. Yeah. And where you wanna go. What are your thoughts about that? What do you wanna do? Natalie: 00:03:41 What are your plans? I'm not so much a planner, but I'm thinking about how do I get my message to the largest number of people? Mm-hmm. I would love to be in really large events, summits. Conferences, you know, like outreach, that big sales conference that they have, you know, not Afro Tech because I'm tech allergic, but something of that size. I would love that. You know, I wanted to go to 10 women. I believe it started today in Atlanta, if I'm not mistaken, and so I am not so much, I wanna get paid 10, 20, $30,000 for this keynote. I want a thousand people in the audience to hear my message and be able to get connected and like hooked in with the mission of Unapologetic Wealth. Because once people hear the mission and they get it, they want to buy from me. They want to invest in the services. So I don't have to put a hard sell on people. I just need them to hear me. Like I literally just need to be on stages. Awesome. Kirsten: 00:04:41 So when people are talking about presenting and things, I know that you love PowerPoint decks, like it's one of your favorite things ever is to make a PowerPoint, isn't it? Natalie: 00:04:52 I hate them so much. presentations. It's one of the things that drew me to you because anybody who's like, look, if you're doing a conversion event, an enrollment event, you need a deck period. If you are up here selling this thing, But for most people who are just trying to get a motivational message across, it is distracting. I actually just came from a live event and everyone who came with slides struggled. Mm-hmm. There was a timing issue between the slides and the, the speaker. The slides were here and the speaker was Cat Corner here. You couldn't look at the person speaking and the slides simultaneously, not the speaker's fault. They had no way of knowing that until they got to the venue, but by then it was too late because they'd already built a speech up around. I feel like slides are a liability. I think it's almost like packing with a check bag. Yeah, like if you've got a carry on, you can weather more travel bumps. Yes, you can deplane and leave instead of having to go, you know, like it's, you're so much more flexible if you travel with a carry on. So that's kind of how I view having a really strong. Internal compass of your message and being able to memorize enough of it to stay on track without needing the visual aid. I don't know that they've ever

helped me, to be honest. Kirsten: 00:06:14 Yeah. I, as you know, I always encourage people to be able to do it without the deck. Mm-hmm. I have recently had some people say, Hey, one thing you're missing is that this one person said I'm, oh, spicy. Yeah. I need that for structure. And I'm like, okay, solid. Yeah, so let's come up with structured ways to give you that support. Yeah, but you and I have both seen people doing the presentation where they, this happens all the time. Where they lead off with the deck is the presenter and I'm somehow its assistant. Natalie: 00:06:42 I have seen people lead with that and I'm like, this is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. Why would you give away all of your power and agency to static slides and charts and graphs? That I don't know how technical of a presentation, like maybe if I was applying for a Nobel Prize in economics and needed to show some very complex model or forecasting or, you know what I mean? And maybe there's some scientific field, some PhD research where I. No, you absolutely need to have a visual aid or you will not be able to understand the concept. I don't know anybody doing speeches about that in general that I can name offhand. Mm-hmm. So for me, I think people tend to use the slides as a crutch. They actually cannot do it without the presentation, and they're trying to use the slides as a way to buffer against their nerves. Yep. Even if I get jittery and nervous, I still have my slides, and that's not the way you should look at it. I think you should be thinking, I know exactly what I'm going to discuss, but for the types of persons who like taking notes and who need a visual aid for accessibility standpoint, I would like to offer slides. And even then, I'm more a fan now of having one slide up behind me the whole time with a QR code. That QR code lead people to the whole presentation if they'd like the slide deck or whatever else I'm selling them into. That way there's no distraction of the clicking of slides. Mm-hmm. people can review them themselves on their own smart device. The worst thing Kirsten: 00:08:13 I've seen people do is they time out their presentation. And that traps you to following the deck. Yep. And doesn't allow you to do things like taking a question or going down a rabbit hole or having any of the other things. That's Natalie: 00:08:26 true, because now your slides don't align with what you're speaking about because you've gotten off the script. But I think that's the problem with scripts. Now you see why I refuse to write sales scripts for people because mm-hmm. it's the same problem. You don't know what the other person is going to say, so you can't very well put the scripts only work if everybody sticks to the script. Everybody, all the players have to stick to the script when you go out and speak and you ask the audience for questions, even if you don't ask. I just didn't Eight minute talk that was, you know, styled after Ted in terms of the duration

and the gist. Mm-hmm. And even at the end of my talk, people had questions, even though it wasn't that kind of talk. Yeah. Imagine if I'd said, well, no, I don't have any space for q and a, because it's not on the slide. Like, that feels odd. Yeah. And so I think people feel safer with public speaking because they can hide behind the deck instead of thinking, what can I do to make sure that the Emotion I want to convey, and the motivation and the goal of the talk is achieved. Mm-hmm. Kirsten: 00:09:30 obviously, preachers of the choir, it's all about building relationships. What do you recommend because you are a financial expert, you're also a sales messaging expert. When people are trying to do that connection with their audience, what do you recommend for people who are trying to learn what the first steps are in getting that relationship building going? What? What are the things that you see trip people up a lot? Natalie: 00:09:56 I like that. Well, first I think that these people should at minimum book a strategy session with you. Because I think they need to have some. Thank you. I like that strategy. Before they get up on stage. People think, oh, I'm gonna come to Natalie because Natalie knows sales. And she is gonna help me get up on the stage and have confidence. But I'm not gonna write your speech for you. I'm not a speech writer. And whatever the brand objective that you have for your company needs to resonate in your speech. And so first, in order for you to have the confidence to show up, you need to make sure that there is cohesion. So a, you need to hire a speaker coach. You need to hire Kirsten Rohr. Period after you have done that, Kirsten: 00:10:36 I'm loving. This is my favorite podcast of all the podcasts. After Natalie: 00:10:39 you have done that and you have gotten clear on why you are on the stage in the first place, What is the objective? Is the objective to win over stakeholders? Is the objective? To entertain the crowd is the objective to take, get people to take some action and be persuasive. If you and Kirsten decide that this is a persuasive talk and you want to persuade people to buy something, mm-hmm. then I would say you have to ask yourself how warm is the audience you're stepping into. To be able to make sure that you've got plans, I guess I would say, for lack of better word, so I've been called in to be a speaker at the last minute. Nobody knew who the speaker was gonna be. They dropped out, they got sick, they had Covid, whatever. Yep. Right. I've been paid to be a financial literacy speaker at churches where all they knew was that someone was coming to talk about money. The way that you speak to a group of persons who have no idea who you are, no idea of your credibility, no clue about what you're gonna talk about is very different than when you've been called in to do a keynote that you've been paid for. Mm-hmm. that you do on a routine basis to an organization who you go support every year. So you need

to understand the warmth scale to know how much trust building and relationship do I need to do on the front, because for people who are cold or coldish lukewarm, You've gotta start with a space of these people don't know me. How do I get them to know I can trust me right away? Yep. You'll notice in my introduction when I came on this podcast, you started to relate to me right away. You may have had a job where you were underpaid. You might be buried in student loan debt, you might be working two jobs. You might have realized the American dream is bss. So you immediately started to trust me. Even though you have no idea who I am, you've gotta be able to figure out, okay, based on this audience, here's the posture that I need to take in order to be taken seriously by this group of people. Um, as an aside, I think that most people don't practice enough. Yes, I find that there's very little rehearsal or practice, and I am an anomaly. I'm the type of person that, for the most part can get up on stage and make something coherent happen. But if you're the type of person who rambles is hard for you to track time in your mind. If you're not a professional speaker, I highly recommend that you get a level of practice out there. Kirsten actually has a practice session, which I think is genius, and she's one of the only sales coaches I've seen offer something like that. Doesn't involve a big, long commitment, but you can actually meet with her for a period of time to rehearse your speech and get live critique. Kirsten: 00:13:14 I am cracking up that I asked you to come on an interview and you're selling my shit for me. I'll, I'm loving this. Thank you. Natalie: 00:13:20 Thank you. That's what people need to do because otherwise you practice in front of your husband. Your husband's not listening to you. If he's anything like my husband, by the time my husband's on the couch for quality time, he means quality time. Yes. He does not mean I wanna critique your business model. I wanna listen to your rant. He's not listening. Like I'm just being honest. So, and he's not a speaker coach and he's not my ideal client and he's not a decision maker of a, like, he's just not applicable. So I think it's good to be able to get, you know, reps in, I think you know, if you wanna be fit, you need to do reps of lifting weight, right? They do sets, you do reps, and the repetition is what gets you better. I find that a lot of people who say they're not good at public speaking, what they really mean is I have not taken any time to practice my public speaking skill. I haven't done enough reps. And so it feels like new every time. Well, yeah. If you don't go to the gym, but once a year it's gonna suck. Every year it's gonna feel really bad because you've never gotten your muscles. Yep. Any kind of memory to improve speaker still is exactly like that. I hope I answered your question. You totally did. And now I'm thinking Kirsten: 00:14:24 that I wanna put together an ad that says January 3rd, you go to the gym, you haven't been there all year. How does that feel? Natalie: 00:14:31 Right. And it's gonna suck. And it's gonna suck every year. And so for people who really want to get better at public speaking, the goal is to get more reps in. I started off speaking for free as a financial literacy specialist. I mean, I would sometimes get honorarium, you know, the bank would pay me for 16 hours of customer service being a. Community service, but in general it was free, but it got me reputation. It got me on television here locally in Huntsville, Alabama. And that built my credibility to the point where I could start asking people for, you know, nominal a thousand dollars just enough for me to say, you know, I got paid for this. I have some skin in the game. And that got me on bigger stages, and that got me in conferences. And you just move your way up. And again, you always need to decide what's in it for you. Do you need to get paid upfront to make it worth it? Are you able to sell from the stage to make it worth it? I have finally gotten clarity on my book, and so this time next year I'll be a published author and that will be huge because at that point I'm gonna start negotiating into my speaking contracts in person. Mm-hmm. I need to be able to sell my books. Yes. Yes. Well, you need to buy a book for everyone in the audience, or you need to let me set up a table so I can sell them. Which would you choose? You know, which would you prefer? Fantastic. I'm excited. So Kirsten: 00:15:42 you have many, many, many superpowers. And I, I admire all of them. I don't, but, oh, I know. But I'm gonna whack you 'cause you're, you're wrong. This is me. Dope slapping you in the head. 'cause you're wrong, So the thing that kills me is you're an introvert. You're an introvert. Who, by her very nature build communities that are some of the most tenacious. Yeah, yeah. Like long tentacles out into the internet. All the things. I mean, damn woman, if you, if you worked for like a secret agency, we would all be screwed. That's true. I mean, I love it. So what do you advise people who are thinking about building community? Because you and I know, and I'm not gonna go there, but I'm gonna go there. You and I met in a community that was not healthy and not run well and perhaps had some ethical challenges, perhaps. Perhaps So, yeah, I'm. Name any names, but if you dmm me, I'll tell you who we're talking about. Perfect No, no problem. So what is your advice for building communities of value and that are aligned to your mission and to your truth? I Natalie: 00:16:56 love this question. Well, first, I think you need to know what your mission and your truth is. Mm-hmm. something Kirsten: 00:17:02 other than come worship Natalie: 00:17:03 me. Sorry. Right, exactly. I feel like people need to actually understand what that is, and I think you should do an audit of your ethos, your mission, your messaging, your marketing, at least once a

quarter. You should ask holistically, you know, uh, unapologetic Wealth's original mission was to eradicate poverty in communities of color. Mm-hmm. it has since been updated because I realized that I don't serve people who are in the midst of poverty. That's not where the bulk of my clients are. That's not where the bulk of my work is. So, By virtue of my, maybe my nonprofit that I plan to launch years from now that might eradicate poverty and homelessness, but this business is not actually doing that. So we updated our mission actually to create more women led million dollar businesses because that's actually the outcome that Unapologetic Wealth is working towards. So one, you need to be doing an audit. What is your ethos and does the way that you run your business meet that? Are they in alignment? Do the offers align with what you say you're going to do? Does your work hours align? Does your team align? If you say you're big on diversity, but everybody on your team looks exactly like you, there's not a lot of diversity there. You need to do something. Either you need to change what your mission is or you need to change what your team is, right? You have to take some responsibility. Two, I think you have to use your strengths. Believe it or not, in my top 15 Clifton strengths, I only have one relationship building. No. Yeah. Really? Yeah, it's really bad. It's really, really bad. Oh my god, it's terrible. I'll send you my full report later. It's really bad. Oh, you gotta it because my Kirsten: 00:18:33 it bad. My top wood is blue's. Really bad. Oh, it's really bad. I'm Natalie: 00:18:36 like all the way. I just don't even know why they suck so bad. Oh, it's terrible. So, I met with two different Clifton strengths coaches because, um, I'm an Enneagram eight and I don't like to believe what people say about me. So if mm-hmm. I don't agree with the personality assessment, I just tell myself it's incorrect. Yep. And my number one Clifton strength is competitiveness. And I think that's bullshit. I think it's an absolute lie because they have ambition or achievement as an option, and that I think is more accurate. I don't know enough about what other people are doing to be in competition with you. Like I'm normally head down working like I flat don't care what most people are doing, so like I think it's erroneous, nevertheless. Well. Okay. I Kirsten: 00:19:19 would say that. If it included you being competitive with yourself, yes. But if it means always being competitive with others, it does. Natalie: 00:19:27 It means being the best and besting Kirsten: 00:19:29 others. Besting. Others know. 'cause you don't ever give a shit about that, Natalie: 00:19:33 but, and that was my whole point. Yeah. I don't care about other people, what they're doing. That's their business. The whole thing was just bizarre. Anyway, I only have one. It's restorative. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Is it restorative? It's relationship? Maybe it's individualization. Both of them are in my top five. I can't remember which one is actually, but of my 15. Yep. One, so I lead with influence. It's all I've got. So I build community by showcasing my gift and showcasing my influence and then using it to draw people. To me, it's like the Pi Piper method, really. It's the best I got. So I tend to stand out in the market square and get my megaphone and start shouting how I feel. And people are like, I think I feel that way, I wanna do that. And like they're drawn to it. The three things I would tell someone who wants to build community is one to show up every day. I'm not saying you have to physically show up with your body every day. I'm saying your mission, your method needs to be visible every day because online means that your business is always open. Oh yeah. So back, back in the day, you know, 1920s before Walmart and stuff was ubiquitous, you had stores and the stores opened, and the stores closed. And when they closed, they locked up their gates. And so it didn't matter what was going on in the store at midnight because nobody was in the store at midnight. But with online businesses, people are in your store all the time. They're on your website, they're on your Instagram, they're on your LinkedIn, they're around, they're watching your lead magnets. I had someone take my quiz at three o'clock this morning. People are always around. Hmm. So what are they seeing when they're around? Do they see you showing up being your best self? Or do they not hear anything for weeks and weeks because you're feeling self-conscious? So I think showing up is important too. I think you need to identify your stakeholders, okay? You need to identify who the people are that are going to move your mission forward. I realize. Early on that I needed some help because I am an introvert and I only have so much people that I can do in a day. So I say, you know, Natalie, what makes sense? Do you want to get an influencer and pay them? No. Do you wanna run ads? I didn't have any money. Do you wanna get a business partner? Ew. So I decided that I was gonna enlist my clients to become my best allies. Okay? So I started treating my clients. Really, really well. Mm-hmm. I started treating them better than what they paid before I started being around all the time. I wanna be on your Facebook page. I want you have my personal cell phone number. Yes. I have boundaries. No one has ever abused having my personal cell phone number, but every client who's paid me knows I give a damn. And so they have kind of become their own little Natalie Army. On my behalf. And a lot of my clients are extroverts and they tell a lot of people about me. They tell everybody with ears about me. You mean Kirsten: 00:22:18 like bringing you onto her podcast? Yes. No, they share. I didn't know anybody about with their Natalie: 00:22:23 platforms. And they go to live events and they talk me up and they introduce me and the emails and it's huge. Huge. Yeah. And so that's, you gotta

identify who your stakeholders are. My best stakeholders are my clients. Whoever your best stakeholders are, you need to identify them and leverage them. And by leverage I don't mean use I mean utilize. Okay. And the third thing that I would tell somebody is have fun. I feel like most people build a community based on this very well. We're gonna have this chart and we're gonna have these rules and we're gonna have these numbers. And you know, we're gonna grow by 18% year over year and like. Yeah, but does anyone give a damn? You know, like, does anyone care? Is anyone having a good, like when's the last time you laughed? Maybe you should go on your Facebook live and just laugh. I think that is what people want. People want communities where it looks like fun. Yeah. They don't want your community that looks like work. And a lot of people have built up a community that frankly looks really dull. Not something I wanna get involved in. So yeah, those are tips I would give to somebody who was Introverted and wants to build a community. Kirsten: 00:23:25 Fantastic. Now I'm gonna ask you one final question because I could absolutely, as you know, talk to you for hours and have, if you were gonna give, well, you are. 'cause I'm about to ask you one thing about developing ongoing mastery in your areas of skill or your areas of genius. What do you recommend people put some thought on about their own Natalie: 00:23:47 ongoing mastery? Hmm. I love that you should create your own continuing education calendar. Ooh, okay. Now I come from a regulated industry. I have securities licenses, and so I am mandated to do a certain amount of continuing education, and it has its calendar, and I decided I was going to make one for my own personal development. Mm-hmm. And so every single year I go to at least one in-person conference, not a sales pitch. Not a launch, not a party, a conference or a workshop or a seminar to strengthen my skill, either in sales or marketing. Used to be financial advising. Mm-hmm. at least one in person. I also go quarterly to something virtual to help me sharpen my skillset, whether that's a paid workshop or masterclass. Uh, man, I've been through so many programs, and then I also do something semi-annually for Mindset Last year. It was positive intelligence. Mm-hmm. that was my three Q four. And then I've gotten in a, a different mindfulness program, Q one, Q two. I'm still looking for my second half, what I'm gonna do this year virtually. And then monthly I read at least one book, not a fiction book, a book specifically on the thing. So if I wanna get better at high ticket sales, I need to write, read a book on high ticket sales. Okay. Awesome. So I have, I have a calendar basically of. This is what I do and when I do, it's so smart. 'cause then you don't have to really remember to do it. And then the years go on and you've created more mastery is what is an expert 10,000 hours of Of practice. Yeah. But like are they 10,000 relevant hours? Because you could be a judo master. In 1980, but if you haven't done judo since then, are you still a master? Maybe you still have some of the fundamental expertise, but you're pretty rusty. If you haven't actually done judo since 1980, no one's gonna say you're a master anymore. And so I think ongoing means just that. It means having a dedication to lifetime learning. And holding yourself accountable for learning the thing that it's going to take to grow your business. This is where I just get super frustrated with folks because it feels like they get great at something and just quit. They're like, oh, I know how to market. I market for myself. I'm a marketer, and they just allege that they're marketers and they just go off and start selling stuff, and it's like, When's the last time you invested in learning about the cutting edge techniques and tools for marketers? Oh, I haven't. When's the last time you went to a sales conference to learn your skill? I haven't. When's the last time you picked up the phone and just did some outbound dials to see if you still got it? Oh, I haven't, those kind of people give me pause, right? Mm-hmm. like not only am I a sales coach, I'm still doing sales for my own business. Like I walk the talk, I do the outreach every day, so I'm not rusty, I'm not out of practice. I'm not selling something I don't know how to do, and I shocked to report this, but there are a lot of people selling stuff they don't know how to do. They know how to sell it. They don't know how to do it. Kirsten: 00:26:46 I am gonna 100% ask you to come back and I wanna specifically interview you on bro marketing because you know what I wanna talk about and I wanna talk Dish. It's so Natalie: 00:26:55 bizarre, And the only thing more frustrating than the bros getting rich is the women who let 'em do it. Mm. And, and we show up small. And when we just flounder in self-doubt, Yep. It, we, we leave the door open for charlatans to gain market share, and I'm just not about it. Yeah, I'm not. If you're listening to this right now and you are a person with a real mission, with a real method and real values, and you know that your message needs to be on stages, And you have not sharpened that skill and you are not clicking the button on rourke training.com to work Houston, right now you're full of shit. That's gonna be my Kirsten: 00:27:39 clip right there. There you're full of shit. Natalie: 00:27:41 I'm gonna make this 'cause you don't actually want what you say that you want. If you want what you say that you want, you will walk. To talk. And when you look at these charlatans, when you go on YouTube and you see these people who obviously have no training, no ethos, no mission, no messaging, no value, I'm talking straight up trash, and they are getting paid, and you aren't because you convinced yourself you're not good enough and you have disqualified yourself by not even having a conversation with a speaking coach. I'm gonna call bss. I'm

not gonna say Kirsten: 00:28:13 anything after that. Woo hoo. Okay. How do people find Natalie: 00:28:16 you? Oh, yay. They can find me@unapologeticwealth.com. They can follow me on Instagram at Unapologetic Wealth. They can join the shenanigans. I'm the only Natalie Bullen on Facebook. Bulling is not a common name. I'll give my u r l to our lovely hosts here so she can put it in the show notes in case you wanna follow the shenanigans. Fair warning, I post between seven and 10 times a day on Facebook, so. Just saying it's a content blitz over there, but it's good information. Yeah, it's positive. Oh, it's my fun. That's my social outlet. Yeah. It's positive and it's fun. It's like my Reddit, it's like a non-anonymous Reddit thread. That's how I feel about my Facebook. I like it. I start like good conversations and then people just have threads on 'em. It's, that's how I use Facebook. Kirsten: 00:29:02 And then people like me come in and throw little bombs into the chat. I like Natalie: 00:29:06 it though. I like it. You know, listen, there are interesting Reddit threads, possibly about some of the bros that we will discuss next time. Kirsten: 00:29:15 Yes. So 100%. I wanna do that. Thank you so much for coming on, and I love the fact that I asked you to come on as my marketing mission and sales guru, and you're like, Hey, buy Kirsten stuff. Natalie: 00:29:26 I'm like, thank you. Thank you, but they should. I mean, you can hire me if you want to, but like I'm not a speaker coach. I'm gonna be able to teach you how to sell from the stage. But that is an advanced skill. You need the foundational skill of being able to connect on stage. You need the foundational skill of. What exactly constitutes a keynote speech? People like to jump to the money part. People like to hire me and go, Ooh, I wanna start making money. Let me hire Nat Bullen. But there are foundational things you need to understand about the world and the business of speaking before you go trying to hire someone to help you convert a room of people into buyers. That is not where you start as a speaker. When I started speaking, it wasn't to convert people into high ticket offers. It was to get them to see the value in a budget and a credit card. Yeah, it was a shifting of beliefs. That's where you have to start. Alright, Kirsten: 00:30:19 so now I'm thinking that there's a third time I wanna bring you back, which is to talk about selling from the stage because that is a very. Natalie: 00:30:26 Specific, it's a very specific skill and it's not the step one skill that people think it is. And people are like, I'm just gonna have this retreat. I'm gonna have this mastermind. I'm gonna have this big in-person event, and I'm gonna convert 18% of the people in the audience into this $12,000 thing. And they've seen their coach do it, so they think it's easy. And I'm like, what you don't know is that this person has been on 100 stages. Yep. This person has read 50 books on persuasion. This

person has maximized their influence. This person chose the color of the room, the color of the curtains, the color of the agenda, the color of their suit, the color of their hair. To entice you to purchase. You don't know all the things that happened behind the scenes, so you think you're just gonna get up there and say the right words. Honey, the sale for a live event happened on the registration page. That is when the sale starts happening. This event that I'm going to, that I told you about in in November, trust me, this woman's been selling from day one. She's already priming us. I'm gonna make you an offer on day three of this thing. Mm-hmm. so people think, oh, I'm just gonna hire Natalie. And like, the money's gonna rain out the sky now for a live event. It's not, no, you need to, you need a foundational skill of speaking plus an event consultant. Then you can start talking about how am I gonna convert to people once they actually arrive? So yes, I would love to talk about speaking from the stage because I have strong opinions. Yes. Well, Kirsten: 00:31:54 that's so funny because you normally note, have strong opinions at all. You're, you're just so shy. Natalie: 00:31:58 I have strong opinions even for me on the speaking from stage because I just, I see it done wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I cringe at the money that gets lost. 'cause if you're selling a $15,000 thing, one mistake might have cost you 10 x 15 k. Or five x 15 K. And I think there's an unrealistic expectation that people think, I am just going to become an expert speaker. I'm gonna do one or two talks, and suddenly I'm gonna be in demand and people are gonna pay me $15,000 plus travel fee plus a daily, you know, honorarium and, and Yeah. I'm not saying no one is getting, that. Most people are not getting 10,000, but they've, they've also done their reps. They've done their reps, but they also are swimming in a different pond. A lot of people swim in broke ponds and then wanna ask for a big check if you are trying to position yourself as the keynote speaker of a free event for brand new mompreneurs, well, they haven't brought in any money 'cause it was a free event. So how are they gonna pay you $10,000 for the keynote? Like, I'm not saying they couldn't, but the likelihood is slim. So yeah, the people who are getting big bucks, they're also going to big organizations. They also have a big value proposition. They also have a long list of case studies and speaker reel and assets and et cetera. And I just, I feel like, yes, next time we meet, we'll talk through like what are the basic things. That people need to have to have a shot in hell in making this work. And like it's always about the payment I paid to get on stage. Recently, I made my money back by virtue of being able to sell from the stage and being able to grow my influence. I also got a four K video of the talk, which in and of itself is valuable. Exactly. So I was able to get video of me in front of a crowd of a hundred people. That alone was worth the trip. So I think sometimes people get fixated on, I'm not gonna speak if I don't get paid, but you're already speaking for free. Every time you have a sales call, you're speaking for free. Every time you do a podcast, you're speaking for free. Every time you get your children eat vegetables, free. You're already doing the sales activity. So why not leverage it? And I, I think people confuse leverage with payment. That's not the only way that you can leverage. An asset, like a speaker reel. All right. And I'm gonna put the Kirsten: 00:34:17 pin in this. We will have you back. Yay. We will talk about multiple things. We will cause some problems because that's the fun. That's what do, yeah. Alright, everybody, please throw into the various and assorted chats, what you think, what your ideas are, what your favorite, what your, your favorite part of this was. Because I have several favorites and they were all when Natalie was talking me up because I love that so. I'm gonna talk to everybody later. Thank you all for watching. Thank you for listening. Again, Natalie Bolen Unapologetic Wealth. Go check it out and join the community. Natalie: 00:34:53 Bye everybody. Thanks. Kirsten: 00:34:54 Bye. If you enjoyed this conversation with a strong woman with strong opinions, check out season one, episode number nine, my interview with Kate Donovan on why burnout is her superpower. The link is in the show notes.