บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ NWP & Get Lit! present Willie Vlautin in conversation with Jess Walter

writers on our stages, including Kurt Vonnegut, Dennis Johnson, 35 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:15.520 David Sedaris, Tess Gallagher, Marilyn Robinson, Robert bly Rita, Dove, 36 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:21.560 Anthony Doer, Colson, Whitehead, Salmon Rushdie, Belle Hooks, and the 37 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:26.759 Mott Henifa Abdurakheb cave Akbar, Aida le Moone, Roxane gay 38 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.439 Chen Chen, Carmen Maria Machado and many many. 39 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:33.240 Others thanks to. 40 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:39.919 This is actually the. 41 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:42.719 Tenth festival that I have planned as director, and I 42 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:44.879 just wanted to say how much get Lit means to 43 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:47.919 me and how much I have enjoyed getting to create 44 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.120 this little oasis of literary joy every April. A writer 45 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.159 told me a few years ago that get litt felt 46 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:57.960 like a festival designed specifically for writers, rather than maybe 47 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:00.479 a more traditional book festival that might focus a little 48 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:02.680 bit more on readers, who we also, of course love, 49 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:05.400 but we really try to cater to the writer's soul 50 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.560 at get Lit, and to me that means things like 51 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:13.759 conversations over free doma coffee, opportunities to sit quietly together 52 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:18.400 and read, sometimes with adoptable animals, sometimes in historic and 53 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:23.039 hopefully haunted buildings, and also bringing together artists from different 54 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:26.560 mediums like visual art, culinary art, and even the art 55 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:30.560 of creating cocktails inspired by festival authors. It's been a 56 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.759 dream to be able to put writers on stage together 57 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:34.919 and to see this amazing community show up for the 58 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.639 last ten years and for the last twenty eight years. 59 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.479 So thank you for always showing up. Spokane. One big 60 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:48.520 bround of applause for you. And I don't want to 61 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.000 take too much more time away from tonight's conversation, but 62 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:52.599 I do want to say just a quick thank you 63 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:56.080 to some of getltz sponsors, including Spokane Arts for the 64 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.159 SAGA grant that helped us present so many free events today, 65 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:03.639 also Eastern's College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences, and 66 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.520 the Marketing and Communications Department for their support. I'd also 67 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:12.199 like to thank Assistant Coordinator Mackenzie Draper, student assistant Adam Westerholm, 68 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:14.719 and all of the MFA students and community members who 69 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.639 volunteered their time this weekend to make the festival happen. 70 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.240 We still have a full day of virtual programming tomorrow 71 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.920 that premieres on our YouTube channel, and last night's live 72 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.160 stream with the most amazing memoirists will also be available 73 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.560 on YouTube very soon if you missed it, so we 74 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:32.959 hope that you'll tune in for those. And if you're 75 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.759 an author who would like to be part of next 76 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.759 year's festival, we are open for submissions from May first 77 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:40.639 to September first, and you can find more information at. 78 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:41.879 Getlt festival dot org. 79 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:44.360 Okay, that is all for me. Thank you again for 80 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.959 being here for this amazing collaboration with Justs Walter and 81 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:50.680 Willie Lawton. And now I'd like to introduce the one 82 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.360 and ONLYE. Rob Curley from The Spokesman Review Thank. 83 00:04:53.160 --> 00:05:03.720 You so. Eight years ago we asked if we could 84 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.199 be a part of this and they they they said no, 85 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:10.639 So thank you, thanks for We're going to be back. Look, 86 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:12.439 I love being here. I mean, I don't know if 87 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:14.839 you've realized this. I'm the only editor in America whose 88 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:17.720 first name is a verb and whose last name is 89 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:23.160 an adverb. So so so so adjective too so so 90 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:25.319 we lords best passages. This is one of my pride 91 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:27.639 and joys. I loved it and we were this is 92 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.000 so exciting because I the only thing I love, uh 93 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.879 as much as I love words, is music, and Willy 94 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:35.680 does all of that. So today is going to be 95 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.639 a blast. And if you want to know how this happened. 96 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:40.680 Every year we're lucky enough to host the very first 97 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:46.439 uh uh, the opening of Craig Johnson's book tours, and 98 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.680 the last one he was at. He goes, is there 99 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:50.759 anyone you would want? And we mentioned will and he 100 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.000 goes here let me get yourself. When we called him, 101 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.920 he was like, who is so uh uh so what's 102 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:00.920 cool about this though, is that theer so that you know, 103 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:03.759 newspapers around the country have

asked if we would help 104 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:06.560 them do this, and so we've been doing that and 105 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:09.439 the first author who said that that he would do 106 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.319 it is Craig Johnson, who had literally went with me around. 107 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.120 So this is us in Charleston, which was really fun 108 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:20.360 because they drink boonshine on stage. It was awesome. I 109 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:25.120 was can you imagine liquoring me? Uh so it was fantastic. 110 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:27.759 But but you know, I'm not really tell those stories 111 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:29.600 I normally, so I want to get to this tonight 112 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.720 and and uh you know, on on stage night we 113 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:40.160 have our sports editor's brother, uh right right. I don't 114 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.879 know if Ralph is here, but Ralph will tell you 115 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.839 that that this is the second best writer in the family. 116 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.600 So so, uh you know, we we try to do 117 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:51.319 a big job with these videos. And I can't wait 118 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:52.879 till you see this next one we've done. It's a 119 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:53.759 hum Dinger. 120 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:04.079 Says to the Klan and woke up about sad Clan with. 121 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:06.920 Foss, the two old wo kids. 122 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:08.720 We're blue and a. 123 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.680 Pony bulls with a needle. 124 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:16.839 Whether it's music or novels. Willie Lawton is a storyteller. 125 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:20.319 Yeah, I mean writing a novel can be maddening, and 126 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.439 your own limitations are madden and and and I always 127 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.240 try to write about things that kind of throw me 128 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:31.600 into a ditch mentally anyway. So yeah, it's difficult, but 129 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.040 I like the puzzle of it, and I like the 130 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:34.759 work ethic of it. 131 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.959 Laughton has been creating stories since he was eleven years old. 132 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.120 I always think of my novels and my songs living 133 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.560 in the same apartment building and they just run into 134 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:44.600 each other all the time. 135 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:49.439 It would be a crowded apartment building. Lawton is the 136 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:53.000 author of eight novels, the most recent, The Left and 137 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.759 the Lucky, being released right in time Forget lit and 138 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:59.920 Lawton is also the founder of the Band's Richmond Fontaine, 139 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.800 who released eleven albums and the The Lines just released 140 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:05.480 their fifth album, The Setup.

141 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.360 Well, I never wanted to be like in a band 142 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:11.399 front of people, but I wanted to be in a 143 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.399 band that drove around and played gigs and like was 144 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:15.959 a part of it. And then with the books, it 145 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:17.560 was the same thing. I started waking up going, God, 146 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:19.000 what if your book was next to all the other 147 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:21.439 books in the library or in the bookstore, and you 148 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:23.399 went in and your book's not alone, then you start 149 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:27.240 that's what got me. Super Fandom got me more than 150 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:27.839 anything else. 151 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.439 Lawton has his own super fans and other authors, Jess 152 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:34.960 Walter among them, and we are so glad to have them. 153 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:36.279 Both on stage tonight. 154 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:52.879 Please welcome them both to the Get Lit Northwest Passages stage. 155 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:57.720 Welcome. Thanks, thanks so much for coming. Willie. Now I 156 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:02.519 know you came to Spokane to play music years. 157 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.039 Ago my band Rishiam Fontaine. We played her like three 158 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:06.759 times in the course like a year and a half, 159 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.320 and I can't remember where it was back. It was 160 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.120 back when we we all slept in the same motel 161 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.600 room and the only way we stayed together is we 162 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.600 just drank a lot. So I don't remember much about 163 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:23.159 it except I was in love with the Davenport. I've 164 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:27.080 always had My escape dreams have always been that I'm 165 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:29.679 wearing a suit and rich and live in a hotel. 166 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.639 And I thought, you know, the Davenport might be the 167 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:38.639 place for me. Luckily or unluckily, I haven't ditched my 168 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:41.919 life so far, and I don't have the money to 169 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:43.440 live at the Davenport. 170 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.200 And I'm guessing touring bands, that wasn't quite the place 171 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:47.480 you guys stayed at the Den. 172 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:49.799 No. I mean back in the day we were like 173 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:55.279 a super eight band. But when we first first got 174 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:57.919 to have one hotel room, it was great because you 175 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.639 didn't have to stay at some like some weird bartender's 176 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.000 buddy house and we stayed. We'd stay at a house. 177 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:10.000 One night, we stayed at a place where the guy goes, 178 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:12.799 follow me in my car and so we drive. It 179 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.240 was in Kansas City and we popped this house and 180 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:17.480 goes go in that house, you can stay there, and 181 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.399 we're like, so he unlocks the door and we go 182 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.879 inside and uh, there's nothing in the house. There's no 183 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.519 furniture or anything. Goes, oh, well, we've sold it, but 184 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.840 they don't take ownership for like a week. So you 185 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:34.240 guys just stay here and we're like in a weird 186 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:36.720 you know, weird party, not a great part of town. 187 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.240 I guess that's it. And then there was a stack 188 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.519 of literally two foot tall stack of foot fetish magazines. 189 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:49.759 Now I ain't apprude, but I didn't know there they 190 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:54.200 had foot fetish magazines. And I was like, do we 191 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.399 really stay. So that was one of those nights where 192 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.360 all like, well let's all stay in the back room 193 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:02.320 and barricade ourselves in and so yeah, I got over 194 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:03.000 that pretty quickly. 195 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.039 I think I had a piece in that magazine. It 196 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:08.200 was a long time ago. 197 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:10.120 Yeah, yes, sir, So. 198 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:14.600 This is your eighth book. You're is what's the difference 199 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.720 touring as an author versus touring as a musician. 200 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.320 Well, you know, the thing with me is I'd like 201 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.240 being a cog. I like being a small cog in 202 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:25.919 the machine. Like so in a band, you're you're like, 203 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.840 I don't want to be late to the van. I 204 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.159 want to be on time. I don't want to be 205 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.120 the worst musician on the stage. So if one of 206 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.120 your guys in your bands starts drinking earlier, like, well, 207 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.000 I'm not going to be the worst tonight. And I 208 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.080 like that. The book stuff is just lonelier, you know. 209 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:44.919 I've I've had my punk rock degenerate friends that I 210 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:47.639 used to hire to go with me just to be 211 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.559 my buddies, and they're all like, no, I'm too tired. 212 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:53.279 You know, they don't they don't want to drive around 213 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:55.840 with me. But it's you do get a nicer hotel 214 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:57.279 room though, I got to say that. 215 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.240 When people

would ask me what it's like beingond book 216 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.240 to her, I would often say it's like being in 217 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.799 the world's worst band because you slep your own luggage. Yeah, 218 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:12.240 you hope twenty people show up. And So this novel, 219 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.759 The Left and the Lucky, First of all, I love it. 220 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:17.960 You guys are in for an amazing treat. But let's 221 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.440 talk about just its roots. Where it comes from. 222 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:21.200 Eddie. 223 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:25.120 The main character is a house painter in Portland. 224 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:31.840 Well, it started with idea of I just you know, 225 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:35.440 I wanted to save somebody. I think, you know, as 226 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.440 you get older, you realize you can't save anybody. Yeah, 227 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.559 And I started thinking there was that in me that 228 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:43.840 I was like, you're not going to write about that. 229 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:48.279 And then I was reading Primo Levi a lot, and 230 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.679 he has a quote that says something to the fact is, 231 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:53.919 if I try to do it exactly, I'll mess it up. 232 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.279 But says like, you don't know who has the inner 233 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:04.799 strength to overcome extreme hardships, mental anguish, physical hardships. You 234 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.279 just don't know who's got the true grit, like Charles 235 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:12.440 Porter says, and who doesn't. And I got obsessed with 236 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:14.639 that idea, and the idea like if you line five 237 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.480 people up in a row, you lined up a say, 238 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:22.200 a green Berets sniper, a yoga instructor that's never had 239 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.919 a drink in her life, an emphysema ridden old lady, 240 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:31.840 a little kid like Russell, and like just a working 241 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:36.840 class tough guy. If it might be the emphysema old 242 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.600 lady that's got that true grit, they can overcome everything. 243 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:43.559 Or you can really put her in a tough situation 244 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.519 and she'll navigate her way out. So I thought about 245 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:51.279 that a lot in terms of two brothers. One who's 246 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.600 you know, eight and really small for his age, still 247 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:55.639 what's the bed. 248 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:57.799 And can't make friends Russell. 249 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.080 And that's Russell. And then his older brother there is Curtis, 250 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:06.279 who's fifteen. He's good looking, he has friends, but he's 251 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:09.039 full of rage. And I started thinking about those two 252 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.720 living in a world that's noir, like it's very black 253 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:17.679 and white, a world that's full of, like a noir movie, 254 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:21.639 shadows and fear and darkness, because they live in a 255 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:25.080 really rough family life. And I was wondering how those 256 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.960 two would handle the falling apart of their family. And 257 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:33.519 then then right next door lives a house painter, a 258 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:36.240 forty two year old guy whose wife just left him, 259 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:40.000 and he's got like a misfit, degenerate crew of house painters. 260 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:45.840 And the little boy starts sneaking over to his yard 261 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:49.919 and hanging out because it's safe there. And these crew 262 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.080 of guys are really funny and they like the kid 263 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:58.720 and Eddie. Where the lucky part comes in is Eddie 264 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.000 is a guy that, because you'll find out later in 265 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:06.039 the book, because of what happened to his sister, he 266 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.480 can't help but take in strays. He can't say no 267 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.519 to the misfit. And so this kid shows up into 268 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:19.919 the perfect Situations technicolor, old school widescreen technicolor. And so 269 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.000 I was really interested in that. And then you know, like, 270 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:25.000 you know, you spent and then you spend four years 271 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.399 trying to save the bad novel you wrote. 272 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:32.039 You know, yes, yeah, is that approach different than the 273 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:36.159 other seven novels. I mean, the milieu seems the same, 274 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:41.240 the working class, rough neighborhood, but it does feel like 275 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.759 they're like that question can they save each other sort 276 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:49.120 of hovers over this novel the whole way, And I 277 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:51.960 love the way that creates suspense. It's a different kind 278 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.440 of suspense. It's not who committed the murder. In some ways, 279 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.360 it's far more vital than that. It's can these people 280 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.679 save each other? Can they pull each other out? 281 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.440 Yeah, you know, I've never been interested in well, you know, 282 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:09.080 I was addicted to law and order and cock shows 283 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.200 and all that, but I've never wanted to write like that. 284 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:16.519 I've always believed in the decency of people. I mean, 285 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:18.960 we get so obsessed with the

violence of people, in 286 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.080 the darkness of people, but the majority of us have 287 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.519 good neighbors, and most of our family would bail us 288 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.799 out if we needed. Now, you might not like them, 289 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.360 but they would probably bail you out. So I've always 290 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:38.320 been interested in kind of broken people navigating tough situations 291 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.240 but not giving up. And I think I started writing 292 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:44.360 that just because I needed to write about people like 293 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.440 what I was going through or my family was going through, 294 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.919 and that they made it. And sometimes they make it 295 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.519 and sometimes they don't in my books, but I always 296 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:55.759 really want them to make it. 297 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.840 You know, since we're this is a get lit event, 298 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.879 I kind of want to ask that process question. Did 299 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.640 you know the ending? Did you have a pretty good 300 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.039 sense for where these people would end up, or was 301 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:11.319 it were you living in that suspense as you were 302 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:11.720 writing it. 303 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.480 I mean we were talking about earlier about like how 304 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.680 you juggle, like working a straight job for years and 305 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.880 writing when everybody thinks you're nuts for writing. Now you've 306 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:27.359 been really successful young, but I was, you know, closet 307 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.279 writer from say eighteen to thirty five, and so like 308 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.920 your girlfriend might go, so you'd rather sit in a 309 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.559 room by yourself on a Friday night, And you're like, 310 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.599 but but I finally have energy, Like my work wasn't 311 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.480 too hard tonight or whatever, so I'll just write. I'll 312 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:43.599 just be in the room over there. So good beat. 313 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:45.680 So so you see you like writing more than you 314 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.319 like me, and you're like, oh no, no, so maybe 315 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:55.119 a little, yeah, sadly, maybe a lot yeah yeah. But 316 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.359 so I learned very early that if I didn't know 317 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.599 the beginning, the mid on the end, that it was 318 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.559 a quagmire. And I didn't have time for quagmires, because 319 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:09.400 I would write myself into like a friend of he's 320 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:10.680 now a friend of mine, but he was a big 321 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.559 hero of mine named Barry Gifford, and he's a brilliant writer. 322 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.640 And I was reading some interview and he said, I 323 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:20.000 just let the characters walk through the door and see 324 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:21.839 what happens. And so I would try that, and every 325 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:24.440 time I tried that, i'd go it. But after two 326 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.519 hundred pages, I don't know what door to go to next. 327 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.000 So over a cup of coffee, I can tell you 328 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.119 the beginning, the middle of the end, because I have 329 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:35.640 to know the end because then it's the goal. Then 330 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:38.079 you're like, Okay, I have to sacrifice all this time 331 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:40.960 to get to the end, but I know the end, 332 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:42.880 So I just have to work hard to get the end. 333 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.079 But how about you, because we were talking to Dave, 334 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:47.680 You're not like that the little bit. 335 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.240 I mean, at some point, I do have to know 336 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:52.200 the end. But I do like to sort of riff 337 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.880 and let it run like that. I remember reading that, 338 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.279 you know, those quotes about people letting the characters act 339 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.880 on their own, and I thought you sort of had 340 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.400 to do that for a while. And so I would 341 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.000 just create these characters and wait for them to act, 342 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.559 and they would just sit around and drink beer and 343 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:14.680 you know, and and so eventually you have to add 344 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.200 some order to it. But I like to have some 345 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.480 kind of I like to have the voice first, I 346 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.960 guess I like to have the sound of it before 347 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:25.599 I start thinking maybe what will happen. And then I 348 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.079 like to leave some surprises open for myself. Do those 349 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.799 endings go where you expect them to? 350 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.400 You're right, like, I like a lot of surprises in 351 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.160 the middle. Yeah. But I guess when I start, I 352 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.839 feel like every novel of mine, I want it dipped 353 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.799 into the feel of a song. Yeah. Yeah, So I want, like, 354 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:46.839 if it's to hurt, to make you hurt. I wanted 355 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.079 to hurt like a sad ballad. Sure, And so I 356 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.200 think about the whole feel of the book. By the end, 357 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:54.119 all I want you to do is feel like when 358 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.839

you hear a really sad song that not a depressing song, 359 00:19:57.880 --> 00:19:59.839 but the melancholy song that makes you just want to 360 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.359 all over the side of the road and like cry 361 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.559 a little bit, or like, oh I wish my life 362 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.480 was this and that like those inspirational melancholy like I 363 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.640 want to leave my job and leave my home and 364 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.359 become the real me. Yeah. 365 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:16.240 I even just say, you pull that off, and you 366 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.119 especially pull that off with this book. My daughter was 367 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.319 reading it and texted me that dog better be okay, 368 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.119 like yeah, yeah earlier. 369 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:26.920 That's one thing I've learned. 370 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:27.079 Man. 371 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.279 You can kill you kill as many people as you want. 372 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.440 You can kill ten thousand people a page. But like 373 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.000 a dog hurts his paw and they're like some guys 374 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:37.880 wanting to hang you. 375 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.000 They call the SPA on you. Yeah, So I want 376 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.000 to talk about that eighteen to thirty five year period 377 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.400 when you were when you were deciding you wanted to 378 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:50.799 be a writer, and you were angering every girlfriend in 379 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.720 the cities you lived in. What were you reading, what 380 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:56.200 was what was pushing you toward being a writer, or 381 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.759 there are influences that you can look back on that 382 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.000 are specially important. 383 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.640 I mean, I think wise. You know, I was a 384 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.880 I started writing songs at eleven because my brother was 385 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:11.119 four years older. So he was fifteen year old guy 386 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:14.839 writing to get girls. Yeah. My brother was a serious 387 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.079 ladies man. He had like a mine too, and he 388 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:22.480 had there you go, I mean I mean this. I 389 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.480 mean my brother had a hot tub, not a hot 390 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:28.759 tubby he had a waterbed. I'm exaggerating, but he had 391 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.599 a waterbed and then a mirror of aspen trees by 392 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:35.480 his bed, and he had a stereo that could literally 393 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:39.960 make our house shape. And so I did everything he 394 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.319 did because because he was kind of my father figure. 395 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:46.440 And so he wrote songs, but he always wrote song 396 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:48.759

to get girls, and I was, I was. I had 397 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.960 a hard time as a kid, and he said, you 398 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.599 should write songs about the way you're feeling, and so 399 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.759 I wrote really dark folk songs from an age eleven. 400 00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.960 Like it's like, I've read some of that stuff in 401 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:01.960 You're like, God, I should have been committed, you know, 402 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:08.440 but you know when you're really bad musician, bad voice. 403 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:10.920 And I'm not being self deprecating. I had no talent. 404 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.480 I just I was just one of those guys that 405 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.079 bought into it more like I loved rock and roll 406 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.160 more and I needed I believed in the power of 407 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:21.279 disappearing into a song, Like songs saved my life. They 408 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.680 were like my best friends. They and so I started 409 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.200 playing songs and I realized I upset everybody around me 410 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:32.960 because I was so bad at it. And I lived 411 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.640 in the basement. My mom lived right above me, and 412 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.279 she went to bed at eight, woke up at five 413 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.559 point thirty, worked five and a half days a week, 414 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.680 and she'd be like, do you have to play after eight, 415 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:44.759 you know, and then she'd be really nice, and then 416 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.759 she starts stomping, and then you're a kid, and so 417 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:49.200 you quit for a little bit, and then you start 418 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:50.920 up a little bit, and then you start getting louder 419 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:53.680 and louder, and then she starts yelling at you, and 420 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.880 it's it unravels from there, and then every band I 421 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.000 was in your neighbor's are complaining, or you start playing 422 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.400 the bars at like seventeen eighteen, and the bars like 423 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.160 I thought you said people were gonna show up, or 424 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.880 they say, you know, or I opened up for a 425 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:13.680 Jimmy Buffett impersonator and the guy goes, if one person 426 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.079 I mean, he was such a bad guy. We were 427 00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:18.720 playing the Mexican restaurant and Reno a vat and he says, 428 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.000 if one person leaves, I'm gonna grab you off and 429 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:24.240 you're never gonna play in this town again kind of thing. 430 00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:28.559 And you're like, you're like seventeen, like shaking. And then 431 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.359 one day I went at eighteen, I went into library 432 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.119 and started writing a story and I was like, wow, 433 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.000 nobody yells at you writing a story, and it's just 434 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.799 it's the work of a song. But it's private, and 435 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.400 you can fail in private, you can be in the 436 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.440 right bad story after bad story. And so during that time, 437 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:51.200 I mean, I grew up influenced heavily by Steinbeck, I 438 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.240 think because I was taught six of his novels in 439 00:23:54.279 --> 00:23:57.839 the high school. And yes, Steinbeck was king for whatever 440 00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:00.519 reason from when I was an eighth g raid to 441 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.720 senior in high school. And I related to him because 442 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.960 because I lived with a struggling single mother. And I 443 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.240 related to him because I felt like a misfit. And 444 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:12.599 I related to him because I wanted to hang out 445 00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.000 with Doc from Cannery Row. I wanted to hang out 446 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:17.240 with these cool guys that would take care of me 447 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.079 because that wasn't my situation. So there was a romance 448 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.759 and a sadness of him I liked. And then, you know, 449 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:28.359 and then I took a night class at the university 450 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:33.960 and I read Larry Brown Flannery O'Connor, and she was 451 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.240 so good that made me quit for a while, because 452 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:39.839 you're like, WHOA like that? That that lady's really good? 453 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:45.000 And I think, yeah, maybe it was, Yeah she was. Yeah, 454 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.640 it scared me roughly. And then I went to a 455 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:50.960 bookstore one day twenty two, and they had a display 456 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.319 of the Black Lizard Press had the display of like 457 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.839 a you know, a cowboy that just got out of 458 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:01.839 a mental ward holding a gun, looking crazy, and in 459 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:07.240 his chest were books by Jim Thompson, David Goodis, Charles Williford, 460 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:09.720 when there were one hundred and thirty page books, and 461 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:13.160 I just and they had like noir women on the 462 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:15.920 front or crazed maniacs on the front, and I was like, 463 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.319 I bought like six of them. And that changed my 464 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.079 life too, because they kept me up at night. They 465 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.279 were they were working class stories by people hanging by 466 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:29.920 a thread. And that what that's what really got me 467 00:25:30.039 -->

00:25:35.279 is the guy's hanging by a thread really moved me 468 00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:36.160 and saved my life. 469 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:43.880 Really, what about you, Yeah, exact same story, Brother's Waterbed. 470 00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:47.400 Yeah. 471 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.000 I mean, I think every kid who becomes a writer 472 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.640 finds his way or her way into a library at 473 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:58.640 some point. And that refuge, that place full of ideas, 474 00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:01.920 and the minute you start to imagine that one of 475 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.599 your books could slide in there is the most remarkable thing. 476 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.000 And yeah, that took me a lot of years, did it? 477 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.119 So you weren't imagining when you were reading those books 478 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:11.759 that writing. 479 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.200 Oh no, I didn't think I was smart enough. You know, 480 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.079 I'd never done anything I thought you had to do. 481 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.279 I thought you had to be like James Bond. You 482 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:21.359 had to do something, you had to go to war, 483 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:25.880 you had to be this really smart guy that did 484 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:28.160 amazing things. And I was just kind of a mediocre 485 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:32.240 guy living with a depressive mother and a super cool 486 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:36.559 brother y and I just had a I always had 487 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.039 a big edge to me. I was always like, I 488 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:44.319 was a little rattled, and I think I just I 489 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.160 started writing for Escapism. Yeah, and I started realizing that 490 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.799 my stories is eighteen nineteen were really dark, and I 491 00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:54.119 had no idea, Like I wasn't the smartest guy either, 492 00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.920 And I was like, whoa, Yeah, that guy just died. Yeah, 493 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:58.720 and I go, well you made him die, And I'm like, 494 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.720 but why? And so I was scared. And then and 495 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:04.400 then you know, I just read a ton I've read. 496 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.519 We talked about William Kennedy, that great William Kennedy. Uh 497 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:13.720 really made Michaele And yeah, so you just keep trying 498 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:16.200 to find books that make you feel comfortable. For me, 499 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.920 I had no intention of publishing until my band, one 500 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:22.960 of my bands started doing better at thirty five, and 501 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:25.799 the guy asked me, I was doing interviews a lot, 502 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:33.319 and the interviewers were usually novelists. They wrote rock interviews 503 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:34.240 on the side. 504 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:34.599 Yeah. 505 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:36.240 And then the guy goes, I bet you write novels, 506 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.880 and I'd written like four by then, really, And then 507 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.680 he goes, I'll introduce you to my agent. And that's 508 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.640 the only reason. And then I went home and had 509 00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:46.039 that crisis of like, well, they could be sitting in 510 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.559 the library. Yeah, you could see it a good Will 511 00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:50.400 next to all the other good will books. 512 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:55.160 You were like, that connection between music is one of 513 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.640 the things I told you I want to talk about. 514 00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.319 And we're going to play just a little bit of 515 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:00.359 a couple of songs. We're going to play the first 516 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:02.160 one now, and I want you to listen to the 517 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.200 lyrics because they remind me so much of the storytelling 518 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:08.680 here of Raymond Carver, of Dennis Johnson, of that of 519 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.440 you know, that sort of gritty working class underachiever styles. 520 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:16.279 So we're gonna hear just a little bit of a song. 521 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:42.160 Littlel is driving down the Gulf coast, sitting on a 522 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:46.720 pillow so he can see the rope. 523 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:54.759 Next to him is a twelve pack of beer, three 524 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:56.960 from pizzas. 525 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:19.359 And two letters as soon the Earl's brothers being in 526 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:20.319 the back seat. 527 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:24.839 It's been twenty. 528 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:25.599 Miles and he. 529 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:31.160 Can't stop crying passing. 530 00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:34.640 The house is on stilts on holiday beach. 531 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:41.240 The ac don't work. An earl second the Gulf coast. 532 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.119 He oh no, oh, no. 533 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.720 Oh, man, I love that. If I was teaching a 534 00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:53.480 writing class, I would say, start your story with little 535 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.160 earl driving down the Gulf Coast, sitting on a pillow. 536 00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.200 And the detail it gets to me are the two 537 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:03.519 laters for souvenirs, the so I want to I'm when. 538 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.319 I'm a big fan of the de Lines that's Willie's 539 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.119 new band. After Richmond Fontein talk about that process of 540 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:15.519 writing songs versus writing stories, how they connect, I mean we, 541 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.599 I guess we think of country western songs often as 542 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.319 having those great stories.

Bob Dylan, you know, and Hurricane 543 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.359 you know tells you an entire story. But but it's 544 00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:29.960 pretty unusual. And have you always written songs like that 545 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:31.559 that that work as stories? 546 00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:33.839 Yeah? I mean I think when I when I was 547 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.440 before I was eighteen, I was trying to write catch 548 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.039 you one liners. I was obsessed with that band X 549 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:42.519 like the World's message in my kiss. 550 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:44.240 Yeah we have an X fan of. 551 00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.400 The phones off the hook, but you're not those kind 552 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:49.039 of great one liners. And I'd literally stay up all 553 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:51.880 night trying to come up with them, and I could 554 00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:55.039 never do it. And then when I was eighteen started 555 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.400 writing stories in the library, I started realizing like, oh no, 556 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.880 the my way is going to be telling folk songs, 557 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.960 because those were the songs. Story songs saved my life 558 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.720 because you could disappear from who you are. You could 559 00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:13.839 listen to a Bob Dylan song or those Springsteen Tom 560 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.839 Waits kind of guys, Ricky Lee Jones that would tell 561 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:20.359 stories and then suddenly you're not in your house anymore, 562 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:23.799 You're a million miles away. And so that was always 563 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.720 my goal. So when I started writing like that, I 564 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.079 was obsessed with where I grew up, Reno, Nevada. I 565 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.720 was madly in love with that city for a lot 566 00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:34.599 of years, and so I said, well, you know, it's 567 00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:37.799 all about it's all about the grift, it's all about 568 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.960 the details. So there's always got to be one detail 569 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.799 in a story that sucks you in and you're like, oh, 570 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.000 I buy it. And so I was like, well, I 571 00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:50.839 might not be the smartest guy, but if I come 572 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.039 up with the right detail that when you listen to it, 573 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:56.880 you forget that it's a guy like Amy singing, you're 574 00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:59.480 just like I'm with Little Earl now. And so I 575 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.519 would work on that stuff forever. So Little Earl at 576 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:05.720 one time was a was a fifty six year old 577 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:09.160 drifter with a row of suits in the back seat. 578 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:12.079 For about six months, that song was that, and then 579

00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:14.920 that turned into a song of mine called can You 580 00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:19.000 Get Me Out of Phoenix? And but then Little Earl 581 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.839 became what it is, which is uh. I often write 582 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.160 about brothers and and this is the two brothers that 583 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.480 they live with their uncle who works on an oil rig, 584 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.880 and the uncle just says, don't ride my car, don't 585 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.559 get in trouble because because you guys live alone a lot, 586 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.880 and I'm your guy, right, And so they they they 587 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.680 are in trouble, and they're in trouble. They they just 588 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:42.880 grab a bunch of stuff out of a mini martin 589 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.880 run for the door, and the mini mart owner shoots 590 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:48.920 the one of the kids and the brothers in the 591 00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:51.319 back and he does he's too scared to go to 592 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:53.759 the hospital to admit what he's done, and the little 593 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:56.079 brother's driving and he doesn't know what to do. So 594 00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:59.359 it's all about like what would they steal the pizzas? 595 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.279 You know, And that that affinity for you know, for 596 00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:08.039 people that other others might look down upon or walk 597 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:10.640 right past, or see his low lifes or something. Do 598 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.000 you think that comes from growing up in Reno, that's 599 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.759 you know, that's a tougher city. Have you always had 600 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:19.240 that kind of empathy for the working class and the 601 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.599 painters and the rustles of the world. 602 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:24.759 I mean I have for a couple of reasons. One, 603 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:27.559 you know, my mom worked with all men, and she 604 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:29.720 worked with a lot of guys that her boss would 605 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:32.319 find off the river kind of like here, like the 606 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:36.480 truckies like Reno's like the kind of cute little sister 607 00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.799 of Spokane. I mean, they both are along the river, 608 00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:42.119 but they both have some really cool things about them. 609 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:48.200 They both like the nature around them is gorgeous. They're Spokane. 610 00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:50.039 It's like one of the great cities. I think it 611 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.680 is here. But she worked with with these guys. They 612 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:58.200 would that her boss would try to rehabilitate and then 613 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.079 they keep it together, and then they wouldn't keep it together. 614 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.240 And then my mom would go, I saw, you know 615 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:06.279 Steve by the river again, you know, and he might 616 00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:10.119 have lasted six years working. But my mom was an 617 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:13.920 overshare I think, and uh and and so I knew 618 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:15.840 and we were a small family, and she said, look, 619 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:18.559 you're you're in America. You're three bad moves from living 620 00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:20.480 in your car, so don't mess up. 621 00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:20.800 Wow. 622 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.480 And I had a big edge on me then, and 623 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:25.679 I thought I would be in Reno. At that time 624 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.199 there was like just drifter men, all these kind of 625 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.960 wayward guys about our. 626 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.760 Age lived lived in late thirties. 627 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:40.880 Yeah, well they lived in the motels because and when 628 00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:43.320 I was growing up within a mile radius of downtown, 629 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:46.119 there was over one hundred mom and pop motels that 630 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.119 no tourists would stay at them. The tourists all stayed 631 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.800 at the casino, the safe casino hotels. So the mom 632 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.559 and pops had to figure out how to survive, and 633 00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:59.280 so they'd rent to like failed a lot of failed men. 634 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:01.880 So women, but not as much as you would think 635 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:04.599 back in the day. And then later on now it's 636 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.519 families and it's it's more severe. But so I grew 637 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.360 up seeing a lot of like men that are just 638 00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:14.880 like deer in the headlights, old middle aged guys, and 639 00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:17.360 I assumed I would be like that. I just was like, Oh, 640 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.000 I'm gonna end up like that, so I better get 641 00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:23.159 used to it. So I was both obsessed with seeing 642 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.559 what it would be like and then and then when 643 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:27.239 I'm about thirty, I'm like, I don't want to be 644 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:29.440 one of those guys. Yeah, then you spend your whole 645 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.199 rest of your life trying to run as hard as 646 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.800 you can in the away from that way of living. 647 00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:37.800 So I think I was that just got in my dna, 648 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.199 I think, and I've always been into and sadly, you know, 649 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:42.559 I've never been much so I've never been able to 650 00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.679 write about being a lawyer, or living in New York City, 651 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.679 or or flying a plane. You know, I've never gotten 652

00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.559 to the stage where you know, I have a jet. 653 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:56.159 Yes, yeah, you've got plenty of time. 654 00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:58.320 I was fishing for that. 655 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.119 You're in your late thirties, what's. 656 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.679 Much, but you you have a lot more. It seems 657 00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:07.280 like I don't know if it's curiosity or courage because 658 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.840 to write different styles, but you, I mean, the thing 659 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:12.320 I've always loved about is because you you do write 660 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:18.360 about the working class. You're not as dark minded is me, 661 00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:24.360 so it's more fun to read sadly. But so, but 662 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.039 why is that side of life? 663 00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:27.880 I mean, I think the same thing. I mean, I'm 664 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.000 a first generation college student. My dad worked in an 665 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:35.639 aluminum plant. I've never I've always lived about a solid 666 00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:38.440 eight iron from the river and the railroad tracks, you know, 667 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:41.519 never lived on the South Hill, and so those are 668 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.239 just the worlds that I knew. And and then I 669 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.159 think the drama feels more intense for that same reason. 670 00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:51.519 I mean, Eddie and Russell, their lives are hanging by 671 00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.039 that thread, you know. And for those of you want 672 00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.760 to read more about Reno, Willie's last book, The Horse 673 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.400 Is Set, is about a Reno musician, and I thought 674 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:04.599 that was just beautifully captured just both the hard life 675 00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.800 of a musician but also the city at that in 676 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:08.840 that time too. 677 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.159 Yeah, boys, you know, you thought. The one thing I 678 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.639 learned from writing just for yourself and not case. You know, 679 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.599 I never thought anything would come of them, is you're like, well, 680 00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:21.800 if I'm going to spend day after day after day 681 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.719 in a room writing a story, it's going to be 682 00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:27.119 about the places I love. Yeah, So I end up 683 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.559 in the restaurants. My guys are always in the restaurants 684 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:31.599 that I want to eat at, or flirting with the 685 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:33.079 waitress I want to flirt with. 686 00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:38.280 And this book is like the is like the opposite 687 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.719 of the Michelin Guide to Eating in Portland. If if 688 00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:46.639 you want to know every diner, it's it's perfect that way. Well, 689 00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:48.960 we're going to get some audience questions, but first I 690 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:50.679 want to play one more song, which is I don't 691 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.800 know how Willy did it, but he somehow wrote about 692 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:56.880 my family Christmas. So we're gonna play just a little 693 00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.880 bit more of one song, which is one of my 694 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:05.920 favorite Christmas and Atlantis. 695 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:29.559 We got out of the taxi here a little drummer boy. 696 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:34.639 We're half tight and dressed in the nines. When we 697 00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:40.360 open up the door, first thing we see is your 698 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:48.559 uncle in his tidy whities, screaming at the TV because 699 00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:52.239 the Broncos are losing and won't even make the spread. 700 00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.159 In the kitchen is the beer and the orders, and 701 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:00.320 the chin is. 702 00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:06.199 Your mom's still hitting on my dad, but now my 703 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:07.480 mom wants to join in. 704 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:15.719 Your nephews in the basement playing Grand theft Auto on 705 00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:17.679 Christmas Day. 706 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:21.599 And your niece starts showing me pictures of her naked 707 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:27.599 in that triple X way, says there's no point in 708 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:34.559 college with all the money she makes. Just put a 709 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.440 down payment on a five year old Honiday with one 710 00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:41.440 hundred and eighty thousand miles and gas. 711 00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:49.880 Lass lads game. Yeah that. 712 00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.360 By the time the uncle starts talking about the good 713 00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:00.000 attributes of the KKK, I'm like, this is the greatest 714 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:00.880 Christmas song ever. 715 00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:04.400 So you know, when I've had people come up to 716 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.360 me and go, why are you so down on Christmas, 717 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:09.159 I'm like, you didn't think that was funny? 718 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:12.199 My family loves. My family loves when I put that 719 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:12.679 song on it. 720 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.159 Oh good. Yeah, so you know you got you. 721 00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:16.960 Should all you should all search it out. Well, I 722 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:19.280 think we're gonna get some some audience questions. 723 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:24.239 Now, I'll start over here, move over there, and if 724 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:26.320 somebody waves their hand up there, I will. 725 00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:29.280 Go up to the second floor. But I want to 726 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.239 make sure that oh right in the front. That's great, 727 00:40:31.360

--> 00:40:33.039 you're the first one to have a question. But we'll 728 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:44.719 start here and I'll move my way up d D Okay, 729 00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:48.119 so uh how did you end up in Portland? But 730 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:51.440 even more so, how did you end up being a painter? 731 00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:55.840 I moved to Portland. Well, you know, my mom was 732 00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.679 really conservative and uh, and Reno's kind of a small 733 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.360 town for if you grow up there. And I was 734 00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:05.079 a failed musician. I worked at a truck and company 735 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:09.880 loading trucks, and and my mom she she didn't like 736 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:12.760 the arts and and it's hard to be a failed 737 00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:17.920 loser musician, want to be writer in a town where 738 00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:19.960 you're doing too good at it, You and your mom's 739 00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:21.840 staring at you all the time, going what are you 740 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.079 doing with your life? And this band from Portland came 741 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:28.519 through and played this little bar and they were miles 742 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.880 better than any band i'd seen, like a small time band. 743 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.159 And the guy goes, you should move to Portland. They've got, 744 00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.000 you know, cheap houses at the time in basements, so 745 00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.039 you can practice in the basement, and there's bars to 746 00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:45.119 play at. And I transferred from that truck and company. 747 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.840 You had a place in Portland. I transferred up there, 748 00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:52.079 and then I spent seven or eight years quitting jobs 749 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:53.880 all the time to go on tours where I make 750 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.840 no money. Or I used to quit jobs to write 751 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.039 novels that I would never show anybody you know, I 752 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:03.960 wasn't the smartest guy. And then and then I'd get 753 00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:07.519 day labor, like working in warehouses, and then you get 754 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:09.960 all you know I was. I'd be very dramatic, like 755 00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:12.079 I don't think I can do this anymore, man, I 756 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.239 just maybe I'll just like live by the river and 757 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:17.639 just give up. And then my buddy goes, why don't 758 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:19.400 you paint houses with me? And then you don't have 759 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.880 to quit anymore. When you go on the road, you 760 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.199 just you just don't work for me, and then you 761 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:26.559 come back and you work for me. And then I 762 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:28.800 mean I met my wife through him. He helped me 763 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.519 get a home loan, and then he started me in 764 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.159 my own business. So then I started my own business. 765 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:35.960 And I'd say, oh, you know, I can't start your 766 00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:39.320 job for three weeks because I'm starting this other big job. 767 00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:42.559 And really I'd just be going on the road. So 768 00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:44.800 I never liked painting. I liked hanging out with the 769 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.880 all the weirdo painters I worked with, but you know, 770 00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:52.679 I wasn't like a I had to convince myself every 771 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.639 day to get go to work. It was a big 772 00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:56.760 battle every day, you can do it, No, I can't. 773 00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.400 You can do it. No, I can't. So that's how 774 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:00.239 I started paying. 775 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:04.639 I made it up here to the rafter And another question, 776 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:05.519 Look at you? 777 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:11.360 So you talked about writing even though in your head 778 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:14.239 writers have to be this special kind of smart type 779 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:20.079 of person. When you feel like you're not that person, 780 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:24.000 what makes the story come to you? 781 00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:29.440 Anyway? I think you. I think part of it was 782 00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:33.440 you know as such. I was a huge fan, and 783 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:35.599 once in a while you'd go, well, why can't why 784 00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:39.320 can't I see a story about two brothers in Reno? 785 00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:42.599 You know, you'd get these like you wouldn't find the 786 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:47.480 exact story you wanted, and I just disappeared. It took 787 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:50.760 years to create. Like It's like the writing was kind 788 00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:54.199 of a safe place for me, so I didn't. I 789 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.639 stopped caring if I was good or bad at it, 790 00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.199 and I built. I was a good boss to myself. 791 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.079 I wasn't like, you're not that good at it. I 792 00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:04.760 was more like, hey, man, you don't have to be 793 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:06.440 good at you just have to get over that wall. 794 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:09.079 One time you don't. You can hit your head against 795 00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:12.480 it for you know a thousand times, but nobody knows it. 796 00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:15.440 And so I was nice to myself. I think, and 797 00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:18.519 I wrote about things I really cared about and loved. 798 00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:21.320 So my brother and I once got in that fight, 799 00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.239 and I felt so ashamed because my brother's so cool 800 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.920 that I wrote a novel where two

brothers never fought 801 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.960 no matter what. And that was my first novel, The 802 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.599 Motel Life. So I did that. I tried to break 803 00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:36.320 up with horse racing because I love horses so much 804 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:38.679 and I had a huge crush on this jockey. They 805 00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:41.000 kept getting hurt and I was worried about her, and 806 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:44.239 so I wrote that book for that. So I'd have 807 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:47.000 these big reasons to write, like I'd have these big 808 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.920 things I was trying to figure out or stand up 809 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.519 for in my own way. So that kind of got 810 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.400 me through this self confidence thing. Self confidence has always 811 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:57.880 been the hardest thing for me. And it's just that, 812 00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:00.199 like you have to work really hard if you beat 813 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.119 yourself up like that, or you know. 814 00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.679 I feel like it comes and goes for all writers. 815 00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:09.239 Self confidence. I used to go to the bookstore and 816 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:13.079 look for a terrible book. I would just read the beginnings, 817 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.119 and I'm like, well, I can write better than that. Yeah, No, 818 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.880 And and I always thought you get great inspiration from 819 00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:21.159 the books you love and you get a weirder, darker 820 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:26.320 inspiration from that best seller that's really horrible. Yeah, you're right, 821 00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:27.800 but you got you have to you have to do 822 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:31.039 a lot of delusional self help for yourself to keep going. 823 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:33.239 You're right. And then and then you have to read 824 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.719 really good books that that somehow inspire you, not the 825 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.440 really good ones that make you going Jesus man. I'm like, 826 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:43.199 I'm a janitor in this this school of writers. 827 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:45.800 But that but that idea of writing the story that 828 00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:48.800 you can tell, you know, which is what Tony Morrison says. 829 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.559 She says, I started writing because no one was writing 830 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:52.760 the books I wanted to read. 831 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:57.840 And yeah, and like being in love with things, that's 832 00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.239 the only thing you have, is like the thing that 833 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.079 you think are important. Yeah, and that gives you the courage. 834 00:46:03.079 --> 00:46:03.880 You're right, that right? 835 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.440 That in crap copy books? Yeah, another one up here 836 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:08.239 in the second rip. 837 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:12.639 So I'm just curious, you're you could say you kind 838 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:15.440 of didn't have a whole lot of faith in your writing. 839 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.000 What did it feel like when you found out you've 840 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.760 got to be published and you don't go on sell 841 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:22.559 your first book? 842 00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.159 Well, you know, it was a fluke. The whole thing 843 00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:27.880 was a fluke, I mean, and because, like I said, 844 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:32.559 my band was doing we were on the upswing. And 845 00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:35.519 at the same time that we were on the upswing, 846 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.400 I played a gig where this agent was there. She 847 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.039 was twenty twenty five. She just started and she was 848 00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:46.840 really drunk, and she said, she says, this one of 849 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:50.000 her writers was a crime writer, and goes, he says, 850 00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:52.760 I should read, just send me your book. And then 851 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:56.079 she read the book and liked it and goes, I 852 00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.559 know a guy that's supposed to buy a book about 853 00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:01.679 like an Americana kind of book book right now, so 854 00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:04.599 let me see if I can sell it to him, 855 00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:07.719 I mean, And and he had, you know, next the 856 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.000 following week, he probably had already bought in the book 857 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:11.400 that he was supposed to do, like kind of a 858 00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.679 more West kind of vibe book he was supposed to buy. 859 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:18.599 So that guy bought it. And I was like, you know, 860 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:22.199 after being in failed bands and making people miserable with 861 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.119 my music for twenty years, you know, I was like, 862 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.920 I was really excited, you know, obviously really excited. And 863 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:31.960 then I started calling that that twenty five year old kid, 864 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.599 and I was like, hey, is that publisher out of business? 865 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:36.440 Yet is this thing going to really happen? She goes, 866 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:38.559 don't worry, They're not going to go out of business. 867 00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:41.519 And then so I had no idea about any of it, 868 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:44.239 and I really kept thinking they were going to go 869 00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:48.599 under before before my book came out. And then and 870 00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:50.280 then your book comes out and you're like, oh, well shit, 871 00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:52.719 now I got to worry if people like it, and 872 00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:56.039 that killed me too, and then you

know, you worry 873 00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:58.960 about all that stuff. But I gotta say it was 874 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:00.840 it was really fun. In the first time I did 875 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:04.800 see that book, like really beat up in a good will. 876 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:09.440 I literally teared up. And I remember seeing calling my 877 00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.440 brother when I went to city Lights Books in San 878 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:15.400 Francisco and my books were there, and I literally like 879 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.119 I started like literally crying because you're like, oh my god, 880 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:23.119 city Lights Books, and why did they have my books there? 881 00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.400 But you're you're pretty happy they do, you know, and 882 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.360 you take a picture of it to make sure. I 883 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:29.920 had the lady behind the counter take a picture of 884 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:32.559 me next to my books, and I had her hold 885 00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:37.119 in the city Lights thing. So h so, you know, that's. 886 00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:49.480 So Willie. I noticed in this in this novel food 887 00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:53.880 plays a big part just touched on like the restaurants 888 00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:57.599 and everything. But I also noticed that like if Russel's 889 00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:02.360 eating cold cereal versus pancakes and bacon, it's it's just 890 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:06.280 a different dynamic. And so I'm just kind of curious about, like, uh, 891 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:10.840 you know, and Houston's a next chef and and Eddie's cooking, 892 00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.679 and can you just talk about like how food plays 893 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:15.920 a part in this novel compared to your others. 894 00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:19.920 Yeah, I mean, you know, food is so important, like 895 00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:23.320 especially like I think it was Raymond Carver that said, 896 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:25.440 you know, sometimes all you can do is have a 897 00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.079 second bowl of ice cream not to implode, Like that's 898 00:49:28.119 --> 00:49:31.480 the greatest part of your day. And I really always 899 00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:34.599 really related to that growing up. And then and like 900 00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:37.559 when you're a kid, you knew when your mom's paycheck 901 00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.320 came in because you could she My mom was kind 902 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.400 of a gooraphobic, and so she would pay you to 903 00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:45.280 go to the grocery store. I mean, and she'd let 904 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.239 you buy a record like this grocery store and Reno 905 00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:51.559 Head records at the grocery store, and so and she'd 906 00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:53.880 get she'd only shop wants every paycheck, and you could 907 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.800 throw whatever you wanted in there, because she was out 908 00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.519 of her mind because she was scared to be in 909 00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:00.840 a store. You know, she's thrown in like dongs, and 910 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:03.920 you know, we hit me and my brother had all 911 00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.079 this whole routine of stuff that you'd buy and so 912 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:07.440 you'd get to buy all the good stuff, and then 913 00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.400 by the end there was nothing. So I got obsessed 914 00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:13.599 with that idea. And and in this book his home life, 915 00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:16.239 his mom's not much of a cook, and his grandmother's 916 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:19.480 starting to fade and she can't cook anymore. And then 917 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.239 he goes over to Eddie's house. And you know, when 918 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.920 I when I have the kid, Russell first meet Eddie, 919 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:27.880 he's at the grocery store and he's buying vegetables, and 920 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:29.880 I put that a list of the vegetables you buy, 921 00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:32.159 because I wanted you to know, Man, this guy's cool. 922 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:36.199 He he cares about what he eats. And so all 923 00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:38.880 of a sudden, you know this, this really lonely kid 924 00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:43.239 is hanging out with like Eddie, who's who cares about 925 00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:45.920 what he eats. And and then Houston's a chef, and 926 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:49.639 and everything becomes fun that way. Food becomes fun. The 927 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.159 comfort of those guys all hanging out together is fun 928 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:55.320 because because they're all laughing and and and in that 929 00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:58.239 way you do when you have miserable jobs. 930 00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:01.840 You know, there's that great moment every night when Russell 931 00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.039 comes over and Eddie says, are you hungry? And says 932 00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:05.360 are you hungry Eddie? 933 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.320 Eddie? Yeah, you know, because he's fishing. 934 00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:08.519 Yes, he's starving. 935 00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:10.840 Yeah, he's starving and he doesn't know how to cook yet, 936 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.599 and so like, yeah, if you are, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, 937 00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:15.599 last question. 938 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:19.880 Hi, uh no, no, no course. 939 00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:20.360 Uh. 940 00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:24.559 You know, your voice is so distinctly American West, and 941 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:28.400 I know some of your music has made a connection 942 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:31.679 in Europe that maybe hasn't connected the same way to 943 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.440 US audiences. And I'm curious if your novels have had 944 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:39.920 the same trajectory and what that's like

for somebody who 945 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.960 is so distinctly Western, US working class to kind of 946 00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:43.960 make noise over there. 947 00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:47.280 Yeah, my books seem to do all right there. You know, 948 00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:49.559 I didn't know, you know, I went to a party 949 00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:53.000 when how my life kind of changed is we were 950 00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:56.920 a touring band, you know, playing I don't know, one 951 00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:01.199 hundred nights here, not a ton of gigs, but we 952 00:52:01.239 --> 00:52:03.880 toured quite a bit, and then this this guy that 953 00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.360 was obsessed with English women who lived in Portland. He's 954 00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.039 like he was anglified, but he just I want to 955 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.880 marry an english woman. And so he was gonna move 956 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.960 to England. And I saw him at a party. He goes, 957 00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:18.119 I really like your band, and I go okay, and 958 00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:20.039 he goes, get me a box of CDs and I 959 00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:22.559 was like, well, I only have like two thousand in 960 00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:26.280 my basement. So I gave him a box and he goes, 961 00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:28.159 I'm gonna see if I can get something going for 962 00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:31.960 you guys in England. And we're like, oh, yeah, whatever, man. 963 00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:35.440 And because that happens a lot, like some weird guy 964 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:37.440 comes up and says I'm gonna make you famous, and 965 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:40.079 then you're like, okay, I'll see you, and then you 966 00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:44.280 never see him again. And this guy literally called us. 967 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:46.840 He called me like two months later. He goes, you 968 00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:50.559 guys got passports and we're like, I was thirty five. 969 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:52.719 I didn't have a passport. Not only one guy, the 970 00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:55.199 one guy that was married and had his act together, 971 00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:58.679 had a passport. The rest of us like, we're like passports, 972 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:01.119 and we had literally we had a two day party 973 00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:04.159 to get our passports pictures taken because we were so pumped. 974 00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:07.840 But we never thought we would so we never thought 975 00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:10.039 we'd get to play. And then we started. He got 976 00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:11.840 his gigs over and we started doing good. And I 977 00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:14.320 had no idea why people would like us there. And 978 00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:17.760 You're like, but who cares. It's like candy camera. You're like, 979 00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:19.920 I know they're gonna start making fun of me, but 980 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:23.280 until that day comes, I'm gonna hit every country they 981 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.559 let me go into, and and they treat you really nice. 982 00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.199 In Europe they treat you, know, like they feed you. 983 00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:32.159 And like a friend of mine said, you know the 984 00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:34.960 problem I have being in an American band, turn around 985 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:36.960 that is every bar you go to they treat you 986 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:39.400 like a criminal. They're like, oh, you're an next Cohn 987 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:41.280 and you're like, no, man, I'm just in the band 988 00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:45.000 playing tonight. And in Europe they they're like, they feed 989 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.119 you and they give you a hotel room and you're like, 990 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:50.199 and they listen to my sad sack ballads. And in 991 00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:54.559 the US, anytime I was playing a ballad, people would talk, 992 00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:57.039 and so you'd always do the cow punk boom to 993 00:53:57.039 --> 00:54:00.039 boom to get out of that stuff. And uh and 994 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.039 you're updated. They do my ballads and I remember the 995 00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:04.320 first time we played in Ireland and I played like 996 00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:08.199 a seven minute song with no chorus. It was like 997 00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:10.800 really set, it was just a story set to like music, 998 00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:16.280 and no one talked and I was like, holy shit, 999 00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:18.840 I think I just died and went to heaven, you know. 1000 00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:22.800 So so I don't know why anything happens, man, I 1001 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:26.000 really don't. But like I'm a firm believer of like, 1002 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:31.039 if you get into that party, like you're not supposed 1003 00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:33.800 to be in the party, your goal is not to 1004 00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:36.880 get kicked out of the party. So I don't care 1005 00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:39.039 if I have to wash dishes in the party, I'll 1006 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:41.320 just I don't want to go home, man, you know. 1007 00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:45.519 Thank you, And with that, I think we'll kick ourselves 1008 00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:49.639 out of the party. Go sign some books. Thank you everyone, 1009 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:50.280 Thank you. 1010 00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:50.599 Joh