บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 7 - Be brave, put yourself out there! "You've got to tell people what you want."

like, where do I go? 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:47.120 So I had a great interview and I'll never forget it. 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.719 And the short version of the story was I got the role. 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.000 I was so happy to be getting into biotech. 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:58.080 Genentech was very different than the environment that I had been raised in. 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.240 My first job was in Pfizer. 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:02.479 Before that, I worked at Procter and Gamble. 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:07.759 So I was in very buttoned-up, rules-oriented organizations. 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:15.599 And Genentech was, you know, innovative, free thinking, get the job done. 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.520 We don't have a whole lot of SOPs if we had any. 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:24.240 And it was like I found the perfect landing spot for me. 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:30.400 So I was there for 17 years and did a lot of different roles at Genentech. 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.719 I'll always be incredibly grateful for that experience. 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:40.319 But as the company grew, I realized that I'm not a big company gal. 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:47.439 And I just got this, had this great experience with a woman named Lindsay Luke who was at Selgene. 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:54.159 And it was out in California in Sonoma at a hematology update for executives. 00:03:54.479 --> 00:04:01.759 And we just really clicked and had a great conversations about oncology and hematology. 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:08.400 And two weeks later, somebody from Selgene called me about coming there and helping them build their company. 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:15.039 And honestly, if I hadn't met Lindsay Luke, I wouldn't know anything about Selgene. 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:19.920 But I was so impressed with her professionalism and the relationship she had. 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:21.759 I said, Look, I'm not leaving. 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:22.959 I'm not looking to leave. 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:29.279 I haven't interviewed in 16 years, but I'm coming to the East Coast in two weeks for a meeting. 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.959 And I can come over in the late afternoon. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.480 But I need to be honest with you, I'm not looking to make a change. 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:38.000 And they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:39.360 Just come and come and check us out. 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:41.199 I'm like, all right, fine. 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:49.600 So so then I left Genentech, never thinking I would ever leave, and went to help build Selgene. 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:51.439 I think I was there nearly 10 years. 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:52.720 It was a great experience. 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.360 It was a very small company when I got there. 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:57.839 And that is where I thrive. 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:02.480 I like to know the people, I like to know who I'm working with. 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:04.560 I like to build a tribe. 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:09.839 And that gets harder and harder to do when you're talking about thousands and thousands of people, right? 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:12.720 You can do it, but it's much more difficult. 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:13.199 Yeah. 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:21.839 So I was the the president of the Americas, and a company called Pharmacyclics called, and they were looking for a chief commercial officer. 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:26.079 And that would have been like my next role, possibly at Cell Gene. 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:27.360 And I thought, you know what? 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.240 Might be time for me to go to a smaller company again. 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:39.199 So I I went there and you know, a lot of the people that were at Pharmacyclics worked for me at either Genentech or Selgene. 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:39.759 Yes. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.240 So it's kind of like going home again. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:48.000 And 11 months later, we transacted the company to AB. 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:55.360 So I was out of a job, and it was a beautiful experience. 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.639 The people, the the teams were amazing. 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:03.040 I had folks that I'd worked with before that I really trusted. 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:08.639 And it was financially a really, really positive thing for my family. 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:08.959 Yeah. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:16.800 Which I was congratulating, congratulations, because that's not easy when you take risks on startups and small companies. 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:18.879 Yeah, you don't know where they're going to go, right? 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:26.959 And you put your whole heart and soul and you bring people that you've worked with and you you do the right things and you work really hard. 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.959 And sometimes it doesn't always work out. 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:34.399 But when it doesn't science doesn't work out, and you can't do anything about that. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:35.120 You can't. 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:35.680 Yeah. 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:36.879 So I retired. 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:38.639 I retired the first time. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:40.560 And I'll just put to the punchline. 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:42.720 I'm a retirement failure. 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:44.639 Oh no, there's no failure. 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:45.360 It's your life. 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:46.240 You get to decide. 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:48.000 No, don't say that you're a failure. 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:48.639 You're not. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:52.000 But retirement is really not, it just wasn't for me. 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:55.439 Maybe I just wasn't ready at that point in time, but I thought I was. 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:12.879 And so I went about my business, you know, playing more tennis and reading more books and keeping myself busy, spending a lot more time with my husband, who had been unbelievably supportive for, you know, we've been married 31 years,

going on 31 years. 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:21.120 And, you know, there was never an opportunity that came our way from my career perspective where he was like, Oh, I don't know. 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:23.680 He was always, yeah, say yes, you can do it. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:24.639 Let's go do it. 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:29.519 I remember meeting him a couple of times and actually meeting him at your house in Half Moon Bay. 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:35.360 And you and I drove out there, and what a wonderful man. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:39.680 And he is larger than life, larger than life, a big soul. 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.079 But he lit up when you walked into the room. 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.759 Like the love he always did. 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:49.199 The love and the partnership that the two of you had and have, I'm sure, I admired. 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:50.959 So um, thank you. 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:55.759 I feel very blessed to have received that kind of love. 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:59.199 I think some people go their whole life and don't really find that. 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:05.759 A lot of people do, but I'm very, very grateful and incredibly in the moment about it. 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.879 I realize how how special it is, really. 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.040 So but anyhow, he and I were, you know, just hanging out. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:21.680 And so I got a call from Saul Bearer, who was one of my CEOs, and he's one of the founders of of Selgene. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:26.959 And he said, I gave your name to this guy named Ari Beldegren, and he might call you. 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:32.480 He's looking for a chief commercial officer, and he asked me who to call, who was the best that I knew. 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:36.960 And I said, You need to call Sean Tomasello, but she's gonna tell you no. 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:42.799 And uh I'm I'm saying a theme here. 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:48.879 Yeah, so he yeah, he called and I said, you know, I'm really I'm retired. 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.200 Um, I looked at your company. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:54.320 This is Kite Pharma, and I love what you're doing. 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:57.759 I would love to meet you and I can help you build a team. 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.240 And he he's like, Well, okay. 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:06.879 So, you know, we were supposed to meet for a few just a few minutes and we ended up spending a good amount of time together. 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:19.919 And um, so I said, Look, I'm never gonna work for somebody again, but I would love to consult with you and help you build just a world-class team and watch this thing just skyrocket because it's amazing. 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:21.039 This is gonna make history. 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:23.279 I want to be part of history one more time. 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:24.000 Yeah. 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.799 So I tell my husband, I'm going out to Santa Monica, but not for very long. 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:39.519 It was once I got under the hood and I met his executive team and the scientists, and it was like catnip. 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:42.720 I was like, oh no, I have to do this. 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:49.360 This is definitely gonna change people's lives in a way that is even bigger than what I've been honored to do in the past. 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:49.840 Yeah. 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.360 So, long story short, I started building my team. 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:58.879 One of our analysts that covered the company, he described me as Mary Poppins. 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.120 She just keeps pulling stuff out of the bag. 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:16.159 You know, here's this person, here's that person, not just people, but highly, highly accomplished professionals because it was so special what we had to do, which was build a completely different business model that never existed before. 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:18.159 So it was really hard. 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:27.200 And the days were long, the nights were long, and all the things, experiences we had in the past, a lot of them didn't apply for the future. 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:30.399 So you had to figure out what the future was going to look like. 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.200 And you're never totally sure you're right until you test it, right? 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:36.000 Right, right. 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:45.440 So, hey, we we got it, we got it out there, and patients are living today because of it with the cell therapy being successful. 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:51.600 And so that was almost three years though that I was out in Santa Monica and going. 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:52.879 Did you relocate? 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:54.559 Did no no? 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.799 I am I am a professional commuter. 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.639 Okay, but you know, I had an apartment, yeah. 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:13.279 Um, you know, these biotechs, you you you go and you your intention is to build it to last, yeah, but people come along and want to buy it sometimes, right? 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:18.480 Yeah, and they do, you know, my kids were at a point where I'm like, no, we're not doing that anymore. 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:21.200 We did that a lot, but we're not doing that anymore. 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:21.600 Yeah. 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.120 So anyhow, um So what was your can I can I ask you a question? 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:26.320 What was your schedule? 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:27.919 Were you gone Monday through Friday? 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:29.360 Were you gone Monday through Thursday? 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.320 Like how did you how did you make it work for it? 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:33.679 I didn't come home. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.440 I didn't come home every weekend, especially with kite. 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.360 You know, when at kite, I didn't have small children at home anymore. 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.080 Yeah, um, so I would stay, you know, sometimes two months and then come

home. 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.559 And then my husband, of course, could come out there. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.639 It was easier for him to come out there too. 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.240 So um, we just, you know, we just made it work. 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.720 And it was very intense. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:09.279 And, you know, my my executive team that that was out there working with me, we had all worked together before, minus one, which was my head of Europe, and he fit right in. 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:09.600 Yeah. 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.639 And, you know, it was all hands on deck. 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:17.600 Um, and thank goodness, you know, we were all in it together. 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.799 Nobody crawled out of the foxhole when things got tight. 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.120 And um, it was tense though. 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.240 It it but it was worth every second of it. 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:29.679 It was an unbelievable experience that I'm really grateful for. 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:30.159 Yeah. 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:32.960 Was your husband working full-time too, still? 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:34.159 Or what was he doing? 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:39.440 No, he started working at ATT when he was 19 as a co-op. 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:44.320 So all of that time uh went towards his retirement eligibility. 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.519 So I think he retired at like 55 or something like that. 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:51.919 Okay, so you're out in Santa Monica working a month or two at a time. 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:53.039 What's he doing? 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:56.480 Like, what's his life and where's the connections for the two of you? 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.480 Oh, he's playing golf. 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:02.159 He's you know, we have a son in college at that point in time. 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.679 We have adult children, we have grandchildren in Auburn. 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:07.840 So he was very busy. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:16.480 Okay, and we, you know, he was totally um connected and and needed in our neighborhood, you know. 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.919 If somebody needed a sprinkler repaired, he repaired the sprinkler. 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.000 If someone needed a garage door opener, he did the garage door opener. 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:30.799 So um he's just he was a very I love people like I love people like that, right? 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.840 That are available and they're that's just there to be of service of people. 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.240 So okay, but you made it work. 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:39.840 We made it work, yeah. 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:42.320 You know, it was fun and we both had a great time. 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:47.279 We traveled a lot together, and uh I I would do it again. 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.519 It it was amazing, it really was. 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:58.480 And um, when I retired in 2015, um I got on my first two boards because that's what I wanted to do. 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:05.200 I knew that somehow I needed to, in my mind, I wanted to be engaged but not enslaved, right? 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:12.000 Um, so I I didn't want to completely leave what I loved because it really never felt like work. 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:26.960 I mean, there were stressful days, but I really loved what I did and I love the people and you know the passion around the science, and um it was just worthwhile work, that's all I can say. 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:30.639 Yeah, so you retired, so you retired in 15. 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:42.559 Okay, and then and then in yeah, and then in two then I went in 2000 late, like December 2015, I think it was. 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.039 Don't don't hold me to that, I'm bad on dates. 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:50.399 But from 2016 to 2018, I was at kite. 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:59.039 And so, long story short, I went to be a consultant, but then I called Ari one day and I'm like, you know that job that you offered me? 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:00.799 I think I want it now. 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.879 He's like, Okay, okay, I love that you can always change your mind, right? 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:05.840 You did, yeah. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.759 I was like, Oh, I have to do this. 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:08.960 This is amazing. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.279 These people are so good and so so dedicated. 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.240 Um, it it was hard, but it was really fun. 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:22.320 And um, so then, you know, after then Gilead acquired Kite. 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:31.120 And you know, Gilead's a great company and they've done a lot of good in the world, but they are a big company, and you know, I'm not a big company girl. 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.879 And uh, if I had gone to Gilead within four months, they would have fired me. 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:43.519 Uh because I'm action-oriented, I see it, I do it, I yeah, you know, I want it done. 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.360 And right, and that's just the way I operate best. 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:48.320 Yeah, me too. 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.000 That's that's why we got along, right? 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.559 We're like, okay, just like okay, what's the right decision? 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:53.360 Let's all get in it. 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.840 Okay, great, let's try it, let's do it, right? 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.320 And if it doesn't work out, we'll learn from it and we'll try it again. 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:08.480 So I did, I did actually um retire from operational roles, but I have actually served at this point on 14 boards. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.519 Um wait, say that again, wait, say that again. 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:12.720 What's that number? 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:14.159 14 boards. 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.279 One four. 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:16.320 One four. 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:17.679 Holy cow. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:30.559 Um, and a lot of them, you know, some of them don't last that long

because you transact or you reverse merge or um you get acquired uh outright. 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.759 So um, but gosh, it's been really fun. 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:41.039 I've met people that I would never have come across in my what I would call my normal operational life. 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.360 Um and yeah, it's it's been great. 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:53.519 And it has allowed me as a board member, you know, I I was have been the chairwoman of one board. 00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:20.240 And um then, of course, I'm on a lot of committees for for various boards, and it has allowed me to stay engaged and still have room in my life for, you know, more time with my family, more time to play Mahjong, more time to play tennis, more time to just walk my dog and not feel rushed about, you know, getting back to whatever I'm supposed to get back to. 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:20.799 Yeah. 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:27.519 So tell tell me about your process to evaluate and to decide and how to get on boards. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:36.720 Cause I know a lot of people are thinking about retiring or they have retired and they'd like to get on boards and nobody's calling, and they're like, How do I do it? 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:38.240 Like, what's the process? 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:44.480 How do I go about being a desirable board member and or getting on a board? 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:46.640 Tell us how it worked for you. 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:47.279 Okay. 00:17:47.680 --> 00:18:01.759 So I think there's really an important element of achieving what your goals are, whether it's getting on a board or getting that next role at, you know, let's say I'm a division manager and I want to be a region manager. 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:10.400 Well, you have to tell people what you want to do or what your aspirations are and why, right? 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:28.960 You and it's it's scary to tell people because there's always the chance that they're gonna a discourage you that you're not qualified or B not really want to engage with you about what you want. 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:44.880 Um, but I was pretty bold about telling people, not everybody, but people that I felt like understood my capabilities and qualifications and had the ability to at least make an introduction, right? 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.160 I would tell them what I wanted to do. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:19:02.880 And so um, as we were uh closing the deal with uh pharmacyclics and abvi, one of our third-party partners, asked me, Hey, what are you gonna do after this? 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.799 What do you want to do after this? 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.960 And I said, I would like to start serving on boards. 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:16.799 I think I could add a lot to a board based on my experiences, you know, over the last 30 some years. 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.079 And that's my goal. 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:29.920 And he goes, Oh, well, I know about this company called Oxford Biotherapeutics out of Oxford, England, and they're looking for, you know, blah, blah, blah. 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.759 So that individual made the connection. 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:38.880 But if I hadn't said that's what I want to do, I don't know. 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:57.920 It's scary to tell people what you want to be because maybe you're not ever going to get to be that, and maybe they're not interested in helping, but it's really important to tell people what your aspirations are and ask them to help if it makes sense, right? 00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:58.240 Yeah. 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:06.160 If you're sure that you have the capabilities and they may have contacts that you don't have, you have to ask. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.359 I am fearless, but I am not reckless. 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:10.000 Okay. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.079 14 times now, I think. 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.160 Yeah, you've you've done really well. 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:24.880 So um tell me about uh your beliefs or your and or your philosophies that you rely on to guide your life choices. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.799 Yeah, life choices are about who you surround yourself with, it really is. 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:37.359 Um, you know, and it took me a while to um really land on that. 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:43.759 And I had I had the guide from a very young age, but I did not embrace it. 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.799 I don't know how many things your parents told you that you didn't fully embrace. 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:57.920 But my dad used to say to me, you know, especially in the teenage and early 20s, he would say, Don't ever forget, he called me Shawnee. 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:05.039 He's saying, Shawnee, don't ever forget you are who you hang with, and you can never get around that. 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:17.599 Did you have a mentor or friends that helped guide you or talk to you about retirement and and advice for retirement or not retirement? 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.039 I'm gonna say no. 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:22.319 That's okay. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.000 I'm gonna say no. 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.319 Uh I really didn't. 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.400 I just assumed that I would figure it out. 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:31.119 Okay. 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.759 Um, and I felt like it was time for me to quote go home. 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:36.079 Yeah. 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:41.680 Um, that, you know, my family and my husband had been like you couldn't be more supportive. 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:42.880 You just couldn't have. 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:57.519 And I felt like it was time for me to go home and really embrace and, you know, be present, not all the time, but be more present than I was when I was working full time and commuting back and forth. 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.519 And you know it. 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:01.920 It worked for us. 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.799 It it won't work for everybody. 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:05.440 Right. 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:07.759

But it did work for us. 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:08.240 Yeah. 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:19.920 Was anything else happening in your family, in your community, or anything, any other factors that contributed to your decision to retire? 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:25.279 Oh gosh. 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:29.440 Well, I really wanted to spend more time with my husband. 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:34.000 It was the the biggest um uh uh driver. 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.799 And then I retired in 2018. 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:42.400 Then I realized my husband was having some uh mild cognitive impairment. 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:56.960 I'll tell you one thing I'm really grateful for is never really letting go of um my uh female friendships that I had developed over the years. 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.079 Even though I was busy, I stayed in touch. 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.559 I, you know, when I was home, I played tennis, I went to dinner. 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:11.440 Um, you know, a lot of times it was with couples, but I I feel like it's really important. 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:21.839 Well, I'm sure that when you retire, it is really important to have a community because you're leaving your community. 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:30.079 And I do not miss the stress and the actual operational work. 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:32.240 Yeah, I do miss the people. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:39.680 Yeah, I do miss the people, and I'm still in touch with quite a few of the folks that I have built companies with. 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:47.519 How does your relationships with your co-workers and your friends change in retirement? 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.640 Oh they've gotten much better, actually. 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.599 Oh yeah. 00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:12.559 Um you know, when you're when you're working together every day and you're either colleagues or you know, I have really good friends that actually reported to me and that I reported to. 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:21.440 And once we are not in a work relationship, our relationship is much deeper than it was before. 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:23.920 Yeah, and I'm really grateful for that. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:30.400 Yeah, I I've experienced that twice in my yeah, two like remarkable ones, right? 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.000 And you're right, you have to keep the boundary up, they have to keep the boundary up. 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:41.279 Um, and being for me, being in HR, it was particularly I bet that really is tough. 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:42.960 Well, we can let the guard down. 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:44.000 Well, you can't. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:53.200 I mean, we have I always practiced it where we have a higher bar for ourselves because of the work that we do. 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:59.359 And we have to go in if we're we have to do an investigation or a lot of the sensitive work that we have to do. 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:04.880 People have to trust us, not trust our professional selves, but trust us as a human being. 00:25:05.039

--> 00:25:14.240 So the decisions and the choices that we make and the behavior that we display at all times that contributes to people's perceptions of whether or not they trust us or not. 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:28.079 And so I always had a really high bar, and some people thought that that was a little rough, and maybe it was, but I never had anybody question me or my team when we had to go and do some of those high-stakes um HR people. 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:29.839 Part conversations, yeah. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:30.640 Yeah, yeah. 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:40.720 So that that was that was um, but anyway, so but once I left, then it would be like, oh, hey, you went have coffee, you went have lunch, and then the friendships took off. 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:43.119 So I was I was grateful for that too. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:52.079 And that, you know, being in HR, you know, you don't always get to show yourself, your affinity to people too. 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.200 You have to be careful of it. 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:57.920 I have to be, I have to be very like, yeah, because I remember having an affinity towards you. 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:05.839 I remember the first time like you walked in and I went into your office, and you're like, such a straight shooter, but you're like, Lisa, this whole landscape of genetic, it's so different for me. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:13.920 And I was like, okay, so here's okay, here's how you talk to this person, here's what you want to do here, here's what this person, and I wanted to help pave the way for you, right? 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:46.720 So I was like giving you kind of the landscape more than I had done with other people, and I just felt so happy, thrilled, excited that we had I had another woman leader, yeah, because I was surrounded by I was surrounded by men, and and I was like, I want we both were back then, this this dynamo wonderful woman that just wants to roll up her sleeves and make make do the right thing and just get rid of all these barriers and all these hurdles and let's just make goodness happen. 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.640 I wanted to do that, but I could never really tell you how much I admired you. 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:52.319 I mean, when I decided to leave, I did. 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:54.799 Yeah, that makes me feel great. 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:55.920 I appreciate that a lot. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:01.119 But you know, but but just your approach to things and your smile and your sense of humor. 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.240 But anyway, um, let me let's go back to my questions. 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:13.759 Um, what advice do you have for people thinking about or in the midst of creating a satisfying next chapter for themselves? 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:25.519 Next chapter in being after work or next chapter some people decide to retire and that's their next chapter. 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.079 Some people try retirement and then go back. 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:35.920 Some people are like, hey, I've been doing X profession, and now I want to do something completely different. 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:42.880 I don't wanna I don't want to do X anymore, I want to go zigzag and try something completely different. 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:57.359 So letting go or moving on of the life and the career and the knowledge that you've built up to do something completely different. 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.759 What advice, if any? 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.920 So, first of all, that is scary no matter who you are. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:04.640 Yes. 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:11.920 So, and and it would for me, my advice would be to really know what you love. 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:16.240 Like what do you really get excited about doing every day? 00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.119 What makes your heart happy, right? 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:31.440 And yes, I love numbers, I like to see achievements, but what made my heart happy was to to invest in somebody else and see them fly, right? 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:38.960 And to see them, you know, achieve their potential or their goal or whatever. 00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:47.200 But yeah, I have to go back to something Myrtle Potter used to say, it would crack me up, but I have actually said it to my kids. 00:28:47.680 --> 00:29:00.000 But she, you know, when you're thinking about like you're comfortable, I know this business, I know these people, I know how to be successful here, but I feel like I'm ready to go do something else, but I don't know. 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:14.000 And and she I heard her tell somebody one time, when you're when you're ripe, you rot, and when you're green, you're growing, so you need to get out of your comfort zone. 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:20.240 And and I was like, Oh, she's right, she's right. 00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:26.079 Yeah, it's it's kind of an interesting analogy, but it is true when you really think about it. 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:35.039 But you know, we all have the capacity to to grow and learn, um, really throughout our lives. 00:29:35.279 --> 00:30:01.680 It's just frightening when you're comfortable in your your profession or your competencies, and to think um that something is going to be challenging and you're not sure if you can meet the challenge, or maybe you make a and here's the other thing so few decisions that we make in life are permanent, so few, thank goodness, right? 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.000 Right, right, goodness, right. 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:12.559 So, and you know, you can pivot and you should be willing to pivot. 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:13.119 Yeah. 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:14.720 Uh so yeah. 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.119 Have you have you tried anything new? 00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.839 Because I know you've always played tennis and you're doing it. 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:21.279 Oh yes, I know I have. 00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.279 Okay, so tell me about that. 00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:37.200 So um, yeah, so I have a group of women that I

spend a lot of time with in the summertime because I go to North Carolina in the summer when it gets really crowded and hot in Florida. 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:52.960 Okay, and so I go to the mountains, and one of the ladies was at my house with her husband for dinner recently here in Florida, and she said, Oh, by the way, Terry told me to tell you that you need to learn how to play Mahjong because we're playing all summer long. 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:59.759 This was three months ago, not even three months ago, maybe two months ago. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.240 And I was like, Mahjong, what in the world is Mahjong? 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:09.039 And so, but look, you know, I'm a I'm a social being. 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:18.160 I need I need to try when I'm up in North Carolina, and so I started taking Mahjong lessons. 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:34.160 There's a uh certified teacher in my neighborhood, and I'm telling you, it is hard and it is complicated, and I am like watching YouTube videos at night and studying, and I'm like, dad gone it, I'm gonna learn this. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.720 At first, I was like, oh no, this is above my pay grade, this is not for me. 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.279 But now you're doing, but now you're doing it, yes. 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:47.759 So the boards change every year too. 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.880 Yeah, they they soon as soon as you learn it, it's like it changes. 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:53.359 Yes. 00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:09.279 I just got the 2026 card in the mail two days ago, and I'm like, I haven't even mastered the 2025 card yet, but I'm really ready just to throw it away because I'm not I'm I have not mastered it, but I have, oh, I have to tell you just a real quick story. 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:20.960 So, you know, I'm I'm playing once a week with um four uh three other women, so we play once a week at least, and I was like, I gotta play more than once a week. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:28.480 So I got on social media and I found a club in my neighborhood that's like an open play, right? 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.599 I'm like open play, I'm not sure what that means. 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:40.559 So I asked around a little bit and got got the low down on what it would be like, and on on Thursdays, it's at the library. 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:44.079 So I'm like, I'm going, I'm going. 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:49.759 And when I tell you that walking into that library, I wanted to throw up. 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.960 I felt like I was back in junior high school. 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.079 I hadn't even met anybody yet, but I was so nervous. 00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:00.240 I was like, back in junior high school, will anybody like me? 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.640 Will I be able to sit next to anybody? 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:04.559 Will anyone ask me to play? 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:06.799 Will they will they be nice? 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:08.160 Will they be mean? 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:14.640 You know, I mean, I'm like, oh my god, I feel like a first day of junior high school going to play Mahjong. 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:21.680 And but they were very nice and very gracious and very welcoming. 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.079 And um, I was so nervous. 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:35.920 And we sit down and I get with three other ladies and we introduce ourselves, and I'm like, pay attention, pay attention, pay attention, don't be nervous, just pay attention, just do what you know to do. 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:37.519 And I mahjonged. 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:43.119 Oh I was like, I can relax now. 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.799 What's been your process for creating a new routine for yourself? 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:52.960 Because you were traveling, you I mean, your life was completely different than it is now. 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:54.000 How was that? 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:59.519 How was that first couple months or that first I'm not I don't want to put a an a time frame on it? 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.160 How was the transition and how was how it was settling in? 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:16.480 Yeah, it was hard at first because you know it and when when you commute a lot, um, your family just kind of goes on with their own routine, right? 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:23.119 They have their routine, and you're really not uh embedded in it. 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:34.159 So when you're no longer traveling and you're there with your family all the time, your kids, your husband, you're like, okay, oh, okay, so it's Tuesday. 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.599 You play golf on Tuesday, see what am I gonna do on Tuesdays? 00:34:37.840 --> 00:35:00.480 Um, and it took me a while, but I I think when I really got comfortable and felt like I had a rhythm of life outside of meeting to meeting, town to town, um, once I developed a rhythm of of having a pattern during the week, I felt much more settled. 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:01.039 Okay. 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:27.920 Like, you know, on like tennis on Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and then Sunday, or you know, and now Mahjong on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and um you know, I just have regular calendared events to look forward to that I find interesting and engaging, and it feels like I have a flow to life. 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:33.119 But that took it took me a while because I really didn't know what I wanted my flow to be. 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:34.480 Right, right. 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:36.159 Yeah, how did you figure that out? 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:41.440 And did you try anything and go, uh no, that's not for me, and toss it out and go on to something else? 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:42.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:42.960 Yeah. 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:58.400 I tried like some cooking classes and and then um I tried like getting different recipes to to really kind of challenge myself because it's not not a big talent for me. 00:35:58.559 --> 00:35:58.800 Okay. 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.360 And after a while, I was like, I

don't even like this. 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:02.719 Why am I doing this? 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:04.719 This is not my deal, you know? 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:12.000 Yeah, it's like I'm going back to cooking inmate meals for my family. 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:20.239 How is it for your spouse, you and your husband, because you're on the road all the time and now all of a sudden you're home all the time, right? 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:36.880 He's used to sleeping by himself, he's used to not having to share the remote control, like he's like doing his own food and dinner, like there's all of this this life that he's lived very, you know, and now all of a sudden you're here all the time. 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.639 How was that? 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.039 That was not hard for us at all. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:52.159 Okay, that really was not hard for us at all because you know, all the things that he was always kind of, you know, I I called it division of labor. 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:59.199 Yeah, you know, we we raised five kids together, so you have to have division of labor. 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:02.239 I think we were both so ready, yeah. 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:04.079 Um that it was easy. 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:06.000 That part wasn't hard. 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:07.760 Yeah, it really wasn't. 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:08.559 Okay, good. 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:14.159 What uh what three things would you tell your pre-retirement self? 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:19.280 Oh pre-retirement self. 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:29.840 Uh, I would say retirement is really not cracked up to what people to to how they build the dream of retirement. 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:30.880 Okay, say more. 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:35.760 It's really not cracked up, like not to what people make it out to be. 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:41.199 You know, you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, you don't you don't answer to anybody. 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:45.360 Um, you know, you don't have to go to meetings all day long. 00:37:45.519 --> 00:38:17.840 And you know, some of the things that I didn't always love, but um, you know, you can travel the world, and uh it's just really not that simple because as you're retiring, your parents are needing you more, and it's almost like it's set up to like transition from one responsibility uh mode to another responsibility mode, okay, right? 00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:18.559 Yeah. 00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:29.119 Um how was that how was that transition then from your your career to now transitioning to caring for others? 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:30.800 I feel good about it. 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:31.679 I really do. 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:33.039 I feel good about it. 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:41.760 I feel like I really didn't leave any stone unturned in my professional life. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:47.440 And I feel incredibly satisfied and grateful and blessed. 00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:59.519 And and I had, you know, so much support from my family and my kids and my friends that I'm happy to be giving back. 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:00.159 Yeah. 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:07.679 Well, so it sounds like it sounds like a piece of advice is maybe for some people before you retire. 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:12.239 Have you accomplished everything that you want to accomplish before you retire? 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:16.000 It's not a bad question, right? 00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:19.760 Right, but it sounds, but it sounds like you did that though, Sean. 00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:22.639 So you you climbed the mountains. 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:24.159 Yeah, I do too. 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:25.679 It sounds like that. 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:26.639 I do. 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.760 What brings you joy and purpose now? 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:31.280 Oh wow. 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.920 Oh gosh, joy and purpose. 00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:46.400 Um, you know, I I love my adult kids, I really enjoy my adult kids, and they were they were uh really great. 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:51.920 We have a blended family, and when I met Richard, I thought he was awesome. 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.199 Um and then I was like, oh, this is this is a really amazing man. 00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:07.920 And then when I met his three children, and they were, you know, I think 13 to nine or so at that point in time, so like 13 to 9. 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:13.360 When I met them, I was like, wow, and he's an amazing parent as well. 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:18.239 And I used to tease him and I'd say, Yeah, I really liked you, but your kids sealed the deal. 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:22.880 And they they really are. 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:29.039 I mean, all five of our adult kids, they're really different, but I I so enjoy them. 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:32.159 I enjoy talking to them, I enjoy spending time with them. 00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:41.039 I'm going next week to Vegas with our oldest daughter, Jennifer, and we're gonna have you know three days together to see shows in Vegas. 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:45.440 And yeah, um, I I really love being around my family. 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:57.519 I've been able to spend time with my cousin who um is like a sister to me, but we were both raising families and doing jobs, and now we get to love on each other, right? 00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:59.679 Yeah, uh, yeah. 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:03.840 So I really I I really appreciate that a lot. 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:04.400 Yeah. 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.760 And and the uh the community and the friends. 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.880 I love my tennis tribe, I'm telling you. 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:18.239 It's the it is an amazing group of talented women that are accomplished, each of them in their own right. 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.119 But we're a tribe, yeah. 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:23.920 And and it's nice, it's really nice. 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:25.840 And you play how often do you play? 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:27.599 You said Mondays, Wednesdays. 00:41:27.920 -->

00:41:31.679 Man, sometimes I play like five times a week. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:38.159 Sometimes, you know, I'll play three times, but a lot of times I'm playing like five times a week. 00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:40.000 That's awesome. 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:41.519 Are you doing USTA? 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:42.880 Are you not doing USTA? 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:44.639 Yes, I'm doing USTA. 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:49.679 Okay, how many how many teams are how many teams are you on? 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:57.599 I'm only on one USTA team, so I'm on a league team, a USTA team, and a seniors team. 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.480 I just joined a 55 and over team. 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:02.000 Exactly. 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:04.559 Well, because I was playing 18 and up. 00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:05.280 Yeah. 00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:05.920 Oh goodness. 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:16.800 And then and then my first USTA, it was 18 and up, and I played singles against this 30-year-old, you know, I'm twice her age. 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:21.360 And the other team walks up and she's like jogging, like doo doo doo doo doo doo. 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:26.000 And I see them and I'm like, please don't have that be the person I'm playing singles against. 00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:32.480 And she's like, hi, and she's like, Oh, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna get my arse handed to me. 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:36.480 I don't know, I don't know how I did it, but I I I won. 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:45.840 But I literally, but I was exhausted for like a week after I it took everything out of me because I was like, my first US, I'm like, I am not gonna lose my first one, right? 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:49.039 So um, but it's a great sport, yeah. 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:49.920 I do love it. 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.880 I do love it. 00:42:51.039 --> 00:43:01.199 And you know, they say if you if you if tennis is your sport, that on average you live 10 years longer than those who don't play tennis. 00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:03.760 Well, I'm going for that, right? 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:04.639 Me too. 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:05.760 I'm going for it too. 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:19.039 But okay, so if you get another phone call from somebody that you know and trust, and they say, Sean, we have a role for you. 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.719 I always would you entertain it? 00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:26.719 Yes, yes, I would. 00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:41.440 Yeah, yes, I see you have so much energy, you have so much energy, you have the same amount of energy, the same sparkle in your eye, the same like zest for life and action that you had when we first worked together. 00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:42.880 Like you haven't changed up. 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:45.599 No, but it's that I'm I I I you know me. 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:47.920 I don't give I give compliments if they're truthful. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:53.920 I'm like, but I still think I still when I see you, I still see some gas in the tank. 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:54.719

Oh, yeah. 00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:59.360 Um absolutely when somebody puts an opportunity in front of you. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.039 Say yes. 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:02.639 Say yes. 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:05.360 And find a way to make it work. 00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:14.400 And if it doesn't work, it's almost assuredly not a permanent decision. 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:15.599 Yeah. 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:16.239 Yeah. 00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:17.440 I love that. 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:18.159 Yeah. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:19.280 Just say yes. 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:20.559 Give it a try. 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:26.800 How how do you put aside your fears or imposter syndrome if you feel like you're not ready yet? 00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:28.480 Yes, I have. 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:29.840 I don't, I don't have that. 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:31.920 But how did you do that? 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:33.119 How did you do that? 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:36.320 Especially women, women in leadership roles. 00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:41.840 We all know there's there's there's more men in leadership roles around the world than there are women. 00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:48.719 So a lot of times, as women, we're either we're what the only one in the room or one of only a few. 00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:51.440 And you don't want to let your other the other women down. 00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:53.440 Have you overcome that? 00:44:53.760 --> 00:45:02.960 I would say blind determination and and accomplishment after accomplishment after accomplishment, right? 00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:05.440 I'm like, no, I belong. 00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:06.239 I'm sorry. 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.920 I earned it, I belong, and I get along. 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:10.880 Yeah. 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:28.800 Because I remember at Genentech feeling that with you and some of the challenging situations that we had that were usually around men that that were at the same or higher level than us, particularly you, you. 00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:48.880 And I never asked you the question at the time, but how you stayed in the ring and how you kept moving forward when you believed, and I think I believed as well, which is why I worked hard behind the scenes to try to remove boundaries for you and to try to help you succeed. 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:53.440 Because there were some people in the beginning that I don't think wanted you to succeed. 00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.880 Oh no, they did not. 00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:55.440 Yeah, yeah. 00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:04.480 Because you were you were you were you were too direct, you were like you didn't weren't doing it the way that the company did it, like, but you stayed in the ring. 00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:25.280 So, what's your advice for women that you know have been doing this for a while and maybe they get into a role before they retire or the next chapter where it's the furthest, it's the biggest job they've ever had, and they're maybe in in an ecosystem or an environment that not everybody's written for them and they have imposter syndrome. 00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:37.679 Well, I think it's really important, whatever role you're in, to be honest with yourself and and with your team about what you're good at and what you're not good at. 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:47.599 Quickly ascertain who the subject matter experts are in something that you're not and ask them to teach you. 00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:50.000 Ask them to help you. 00:46:50.960 --> 00:47:03.599 You know, I do think that that you need to find out who the informal leaders are and and give them the respect that they deserve and have earned and learn from them, and who are the subject matter experts? 00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:12.400 Give them the respect that they deserve and learn from them, yeah, and put them in positions where they can help the entire team, including you as the leader. 00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.960 Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:16.000 Well, thank you. 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:17.679 You've had such an amazing career. 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:18.719 I had so much fun. 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:19.920 It was so good to see you. 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:20.639 I hope you had fun. 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:23.920 It was a great surprise to hear from you. 00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:27.760 So yeah, let me know how you're coming on your tennis up. 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:29.840 Oh my gosh, yes. 00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:31.920 Hi, listeners. 00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:34.320 We're adding variety to our podcast. 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:39.840 Thanks to your feedback, we're expanding to include multi-generational perspectives. 00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:43.760 You were introduced to my son Ricky in our first About Us episode. 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:45.280 He produces the show. 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:54.960 One of the strongest themes in Sean's career was her story about knowing herself, especially when she said, I knew I wasn't a big company gal. 00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:59.280 Sean didn't make it a weakness, she made it a strength. 00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:03.599 It reminds me of a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. 00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:10.000 To be yourself in a world that tries to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. 00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:13.760 Ricky, what did you think of the episode in the interview with Sean? 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:18.159 I like what she said about how to build a lasting reputation. 00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:24.559 I was impressed to hear about how she led teams and gave subject matter experts the respect they deserved. 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:32.000 After hearing the advice she got from her dad about surrounding yourself with the right people, it gave me something to think about for myself. 00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:37.760 Share this episode with someone you know that needs a reminder and encouragement to keep being themselves. 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:39.840 Let us know if it was helpful. 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.800 You can email us at Lisa at next chapter conversations.com. 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:50.400 Or you can drop a comment on one of our Spotify or Apple Podcast episodes. 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.079 Thanks for listening.