บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 5 - Habits that set you up for financial success

to a nonprofit. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:54.800 How do you do that? 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:58.720 So I worked with the chairman and figuring out how to make that happen. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.839 I was going to do that for about three years, and then it kept getting delayed. 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:06.720 And my husband had just retired. 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:11.360 And I went to him and I said, This big project's going to be delayed two years. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:12.399 What are we going to do? 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:13.920 And he's like, Stop. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.199 Just don't renew your contract. 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.839 Let's just retire together. 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:25.680 And I retired three or four years sooner than I expected, literally overnight. 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:28.480 And that was a big shock. 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:32.399 I think it was a big job with a big team to nothing. 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:34.639 It was sort of this gradual transition. 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:36.319 Tell us about the shock. 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:37.519 What was shocking? 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:39.680 What was Dan? 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:44.800 My husband had an amazing career on Wall Street and in the nonprofit sector. 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:51.120 And he had just left after 14 years running a nonprofit in San Francisco. 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:59.120 And I was rebranding this company and working with this other publishing company and traveling, making more money than I had ever done before. 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.519 He was retired, and we had these different schedules and different mindsets. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:10.720 And he's all about exercise and health and sleep and family and all the things that were big priorities for me. 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.360 And then he says, Stop. 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:14.959 Why don't we just stop? 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:17.920 And I'm like, okay. 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:20.319 And I did. 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:24.879 And all of a sudden, retirement was there in front of me. 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:30.959 Luckily, we were renovating a home on Lake Champlain in Vermont, 3,000 miles away. 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:37.199 And I became the project manager of that large project, very far away. 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.079 And that preoccupied my time. 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:50.319 Then when we finished the house two years later in 2023, we're sitting in the new house on the lake and we're about ready to go back to San Francisco for the winter. 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.720 We were by coastal for a long time. 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:54.319 Had this great routine. 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.519 We'd be in San Francisco and the West Coast in the winter and the lake and the summer in Vermont. 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:04.959 We've got great communities on both coasts, West Coast Vermont, West Coast of California. 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:11.040 And Dan's looking at the sunset and he goes, Why don't we just live in Vermont? 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.000 I mean, life would be so simple. 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:16.560 We get rid of everything in San Francisco. 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:22.959 We've got lots of friends there, and we've got places to stay, and we're never really home in the winter anyway. 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:26.319 And in five months, he's like, Let's do this. 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.439 I'm like, okay, this is crazy. 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:38.720 You know, and within five months, we got our house ready, put it on the market, sold it really quick, got rid of all our junk. 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:40.720 Most of it, most of it. 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:47.519 They've they, you know, had the children walk through the house, pick all the art and things that they wanted, which is a great thing to do. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:52.319 I advise everybody to do it while you're alive and healthy, and everyone has good relationships. 00:07:52.560 --> 00:08:01.120 And it was a wonderful, catharti experience having a mixed family going through the house, putting their names in things or whatever. 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:01.680 Yeah. 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:03.519 And it was really fun. 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:24.879 We packed up a moving van that had five stops around the country for each of the kids, their stuff and our junk, and took the dog and got on a plane and walked away from San Francisco into a 900 square foot cabin on a lake down from a 2400 square foot. 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:27.680 I mean, he does that. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:28.639 Wow. 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.279 He really has these great ideas. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:35.039 He has such a strong vision of things. 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:40.320 And I'm I have a vision, but I'm a tactician too, and I like to get things done. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.279 He's a big planner too, but he has this bigger vision. 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.000 You know, he's not afraid to ask that tough question. 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:46.480 Yeah. 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:58.159 And the hardest, most difficult part to this day is being further away from our children, not having family just down the road or a couple hours away. 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.879 But I'm back in the Bay Area all the time. 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.799 I sit on a board and we travel a lot, and they all come to see us in Vermont. 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:11.120 So I'm fortunate enough that I'm healthy enough and can travel whenever I want to and need to. 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:11.440 Yeah. 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.759 Our lives are so much healthier because of it. 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:14.960 Tell me about that. 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.360 Healthier than San Francisco. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:18.159 I mean, San Francisco. 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:19.360 Well, and that's the thing. 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:24.000 I mean, we had, you know, for him, his experience was very different than mine. 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:31.200 I was a bit big swimmer and did

a lot of yoga and did all that sort of very San Francisco West Coast kind of stuff. 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.480 Both lifestyles were healthy, but the stress is so different. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:53.679 We live in a place where it's just these amazing vistas of the lake and the mountains and the drama of a very large lake and a little house on a cliff, amazing sunsets, just the weather, everything is so dramatically different and slower. 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:55.679 Nothing is close in Vermont. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:09.759 Everything is 30 to 45 minutes away, and they're beautiful drives, rolling hills, and you got you and the dog and Dan in the car, and you know, you got to go to town, and that's 35, 40 minutes away. 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.720 Everything's far away, and you can't be in a hurry. 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:18.480 We were just in San Francisco, and and it takes 20, 30 minutes to get across town. 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:29.120 Vermont is rolling hills, and traffic is a tractor in the way, or uh a hay truck. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:37.039 We found all these lovely back roads, how to get to the post office or get to the gym or whatever. 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.399 Everything has slowed down, and that has made us healthier. 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:40.799 Yeah. 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.679 I'm outdoors actually more in Vermont than I think I was in San Francisco. 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.960 And it's because life has slowed down and we're so much more mindful of our health. 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:56.320 I've reconnected with many old friends that I grew up with that have also gone back to Vermont. 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:58.159 Rich relationships. 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.000 I don't miss Silicon Valley. 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:06.080 I don't miss the big responsibility and all the complicated relationships of all they were all amazing. 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.039 And that's what got all my best parts of my career. 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:13.600 You have the time to really connect with people, and we've met lots of people. 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:18.559 We're sort of this, you know, rural gay couple on a lake in the middle of nowhere. 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.440 And I think we're kind of an anomaly. 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.600 And we have a really cute dog, and we have a lovely family. 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:28.320 Everyone loves meeting our kids and grandchildren. 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:29.600 What's your dog's name? 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:30.720 What kind of dog? 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:33.200 His name is Templeton. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.360 I know that's from Charlotte's Webb. 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:38.159 Exactly. 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.159 Oh, aren't you a well-read. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:41.440 Yes. 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:42.639 Yes, Templeton. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:44.879 Um I had a cow when I was little. 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:49.919 And a cow, a baby cow, and I was reading Charlotte's Webb. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.240 I must have been 10 or 11 years old. 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.720 And I named the cow Templeton. 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:54.960 No. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.799 Yes, because I was reading that book and I was so in love with that book. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:00.559 I read that book over and over again. 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:02.000 I just loved the friendship. 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:03.759 That was one of my favorite books growing up. 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:08.399 So you're the only other person, Jeff, I know that's named a pet Templeton. 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:09.360 Same here. 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.759 I've never known anyone else that has done that. 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:19.440 And he's in the nice Templeton, and he's a long-haired, long-haired dachshund poodle, shitsu, mutt. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.159 And our son got him in college. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.440 And all of a sudden, he's in Vermont at nine years old. 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:30.399 The first time he saw snow, he was leaping like a gazelle. 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.919 It's the only video I've ever put on TikTok. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.039 And I got like 10,000 videos or likes. 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.120 And I put it to some funny music because he's just bouncing. 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:42.399 He didn't know what to do with the snow. 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:43.200 So he's happy. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:44.960 He's he's loving it there too. 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:47.840 He's happier, he's healthier. 00:12:48.159 --> 00:13:02.960 We spend 40 years building careers and saving money, which is important, but you need to make time in your life to enjoy the people you love, your family, your friends, your partner, your animals. 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:13.200 And we find we're just like sitting staring at the lake, trying to read a book, and you're just sitting there looking at and you're mouth wide mouth wide open for the for those listening. 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:17.919 He just had a mouth wide open and awe, very, very joyful. 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:31.039 You talked about the relationships and the fact that you had lived there in Vermont gives you a head start creating community, you know, right, and friendships. 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.360 How was it for your partner though? 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.279 Because he didn't grow up there. 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:38.720 And so all these people, I mean, it's good, you're like the entry point. 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:45.360 Tell us about creating the relationships as a couple and as a family and coming into the community. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:46.000 Yeah. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.159 Well, you gotta have community. 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.799 And Dan is a master at building community and friends. 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:59.120 So he went to Middlebury College, which is just 40, 35 minutes down the road from where we live. 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:03.279 And his his Middlebury posse moved there. 00:14:03.360

--> 00:14:04.480 They've all retired there. 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:06.559 So there are like five, six people. 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:09.200 They're all sort of in the same age group. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:09.519 Yeah. 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.480 And they all retired there a little before we did. 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:25.919 And I think that was part of his decision is we have this great community on the West Coast in San Francisco in the Bay Area, but we also have this Vermont community that we've had because we've we're always spending our summers. 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.399 And so he had a built-in community probably bigger than mine. 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:34.720 And we've blended his friends and my friends. 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:40.639 We're really fun to have these blended friendships that just burgeon again. 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:47.919 You go all these years without talking to your best friend from third grade, and now we call them geezer gabs. 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:54.080 And we geezer gabs and grub every couple of weeks. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:59.679 We meet at some little diner in the middle of nowhere and just talk and reminisce. 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:00.879 And there are two of us. 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:11.039 We might we want to do a book, and we laugh and we cry, and and we're all retired, and we all worked hard and earned our time. 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.799 And knock on wood, man. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:24.399 It's so that community aspect, I think, is very important to retiring and having some kind of baseline. 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.080 We had 65 house guests this summer. 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:28.879 Wow. 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:30.879 I think that speaks volumes. 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:31.360 Yeah. 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.039 My oldest daughter lives in Denver and they get a lot of visitors. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:36.639 They have this wall. 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:45.120 When you first walk into their house and they have a small Polaroid camera, every guest gets a picture and they put the all the pictures on the wall. 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:46.720 It's a really idea. 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:47.919 So much fun. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.279 And they get to look back and see everybody who's visited them. 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.600 And when you walk in, it's so welcoming. 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:55.200 You immediately start engaging. 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:55.759 Right? 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:56.320 Isn't it? 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:01.279 I was wondering if there was an app or something, because you know, you have an address book and you always lose it, or people know. 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.320 But I was thinking if there's something digital like that. 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:07.200 Yeah, it's a nice little small, it's not the big Polaroids. 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.200 Yeah, it's the small little square ones. 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.399 He's a design guy, so it's very well done. 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.120 When you walk in, it's actually like a piece of art. 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:22.639 And it and it speaks to how important their family and community is, and every every person that visits them. 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:24.080 I'm still no idea. 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:24.799 Yeah, you should. 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:31.440 You should really and anybody listening to the podcast, like it's such it's such a welcoming feeling right when you walk in the door. 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:36.879 You talked a little bit about how hard you worked, and you and your geese are friends. 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:38.080 Um, and I love that. 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:45.519 Tell us about the financial planning aspects of this, because you had planned to retire later than it actually happened. 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.279 And you know, through a series of processes, you embraced it. 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:59.919 But that's got to be a little unsettling to have retirement at your footsteps earlier than you thought, especially from a financial aspect, right? 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:05.440 Your highest earning years for most people, at least this is what the experts say. 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.720 I'm no expert, is on the back end of your life, right? 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:16.559 So, and so to lose three or four or however many years and have that come sooner can be like, oh, gee. 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:17.519 Right. 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.319 I had a financial plan till I was 65. 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:26.480 We have a financial advisor, and and these were the big earning years, didn't have a lot of expenses. 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:29.119 My youngest had just finished college. 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:39.279 The real turning point for us was when Dan's like, you need to stop, just stop working and let's start retirement now. 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:46.960 It really came out of a conversation I'd had with him where I turned to him and I was like, I can always make money and save money. 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:53.279 We're we're built for that when you have a good, solid career and we're trained to save a lot of money for the future. 00:17:53.519 --> 00:18:02.079 But you can't make and save time when you have a big family and a growing family and a wonderful, gracious partner. 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.079 You're like, wait a minute, we're not getting any younger. 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:15.039 And Dan had had a near heart attack 10 years ago, and just and he's really healthy, he's a runner, and all it's just one of those freak things. 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:20.480 Just that comment alone and the conversation around saving money, saving time. 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:26.640 I always said I have this hierarchy of priorities of family, love, career. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:32.079 It was always family and partnership and self, then career. 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.799 Financial planning was whatever, whatever the number is. 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:50.559 In the long scheme

of things, having quality time to be with the people you love and in the places you love is really rewarding and more than a bank account. 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.160 So worked out, and it always works out. 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.279 You know, it's one of those things my father would say, you'll always spend what's in your checking accounts. 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.400 So you do want, you want to have a number, you need to have a number. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.759 So you had a number. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:04.559 Oh, yeah. 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:14.480 Yeah, and we far exceeded it, even with my retiring early, or we have a really good financial advisor, and we don't live an extravagant life. 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:20.960 I think some probably people think we do, but I wasn't retiring so I could have the big place on the ocean. 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:26.960 You see these people going to these bigger houses or more expensive lifestyles or whatever, and we didn't need that. 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.079 And I'm a thrifter, all my clothes are used. 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.519 I have really good wardrobe. 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.200 Don't don't tell anyone all my clothes were like secondhand. 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:40.000 I buy them at really nice thrift shops. 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:41.599 What was your philosophy? 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:48.319 Let's talk about the the saving and the money philosophy, but I also want to get to the philosophy and beliefs that guided your life choices. 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:50.160 Let's stick with money right now. 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:56.000 Uh, so you have a home in San Francisco, you have a place in Vermont. 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.400 You don't have to shop secondhand, you don't have to do the thread. 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:03.920 But no, but you're choosing to do that. 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:10.400 So tell us about your approach to saving money and how you frame it in your mind. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.319 Because I think this could be helpful for people. 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:18.240 Because the podcast isn't just about people that are retired, it's also about people thinking about retirement. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:27.440 And I want to have there be more, yes, I want people because if you're retired, some of this stuff is habits that you've built up over a lifetime. 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:31.359 And I want people to think about or be open to creating new habits. 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:39.359 So on the back end, when they do have their next chapter, they do want to retire, they've set themselves up for it because the financial piece of it is big. 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:43.680 So tell us about your mindset around shopping at second hand, right? 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:45.759 When you didn't have when you didn't have to. 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:47.440 I always bought used cars. 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:48.160 I mean, who would know? 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:48.799 So why? 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:49.759 Why tell us why? 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.640 Because you save a lot more money that way. 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.200 I didn't need to have the latest Volvo or Audi or whatever. 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.680 I didn't need the flashy news stuff. 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:04.640 I had a few really nice suits, custom suits, that type of thing for work. 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:16.880 But you know, all the shirts and the ties, the things that looked really elegant and had really good value were generally bought in a high-end thrift shop, but half the price. 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:17.440 Yeah. 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:27.440 And if you have a good sense of quality, whether it's furniture or clothing or a car, you know, I I collected herma's ties. 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:32.480 But you don't have to go to the herma's store and buy brand new Hermay's ties. 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.640 Did somebody teach you that, or did you just Well, my parents were very frugal. 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:45.359 They had some privilege, but I grew up in a house in Vermont that my parents had built in the 60s, and you would think it was built now. 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:51.519 It was upcycled wood and brick from an old barn and an old cheese factory. 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:53.839 I thought we lived in a used house. 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.519 It was this house in the middle of a meadow, in the side of a mountain, uh banged up. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.680 Floors and the dining room was red barn wood from a barn. 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:09.119 The kitchen was wood from an old milk house. 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:11.440 And we're in the middle of nowhere in Vermont. 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.640 It was on the side of a mountain, meadows and lots of dogs and horses. 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:21.440 And I had friends who their parents had these big, modern, brand new houses. 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.559 And I thought, oh, we live in this little used house. 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:27.759 But you look at it now and it's gorgeous. 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.319 People kill for that kind of architecture or used wood or whatever. 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:42.400 Like what's what style do you have to have to be able to pull all those pieces together and have it be gorgeous? 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:43.279 Yeah. 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:43.920 Right? 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.079 I'm closing my eyes now and seeing those big red barn doors. 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:48.720 Yeah. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.799 I mean, it was rough wood on the walls, beautiful. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:02.640 But then we had a family heirloom dining room table that sat 14 people in the middle of it in an old brick fireplace with an old beam over it. 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.799 It looked like the house was 100 years old and it was maybe 10 years old. 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:07.200 Yeah. 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.480 I I was always surrounded by quality things. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:13.519 Then I realized I

didn't have to pay a lot for them. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:15.759 If you take care of things, they last forever. 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:16.960 I mean, I have ties. 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:19.279 I have, oh yeah. 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:21.920 You and I worked for a CEO. 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:23.920 I've never had a clean shirt or a tie. 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:24.480 I know. 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:24.880 Yeah. 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.119 And I carried, if you look at all those interviews. 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.799 I used to remember you running around trying to keep that train moving, right? 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:31.920 Oh my gosh. 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:32.400 Yeah. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.480 There are two herma's ties, a bright orange one and a bright green one. 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:36.720 Yeah. 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.000 I think I have it here. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.519 I mean, that was in 1996, 97. 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.640 And I had that tie probably for 10 years. 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:50.559 And I carried two hermaise ties and two J Press shirt, white shirts. 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:51.119 Yeah. 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:52.480 In my briefcase. 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.359 I always traveled with him and he always needed to look presentable. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.400 And I'm always tying his tie in the green room before he'd go in. 00:23:58.880 --> 00:23:59.759 Yeah, right. 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:03.440 So did your mom shop in secondhand stores or your grandma? 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:03.839 Okay. 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.160 All right. 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:11.839 So you just decided that was a smart way to spend your money and to keep the cash in the bank. 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.079 And you can still look good and stylish. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:16.000 You don't have to buy it brand new. 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.720 So the the financial part of it and being frugal, there's that part in planning for retirement. 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.880 But I wrote a few things down thinking about this. 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:30.160 It's creating some habits that will spill over after you're working. 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.279 And that's how you save and spend money. 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.000 Do you have a philosophy or beliefs that you rely on to guide your life choices? 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:39.680 Okay, let's hear about that. 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.720 It's that doors are always open for you. 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.039 Opportunities are all always there. 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:47.920 You need to be present and have to recognize them. 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:49.920 You know, we're told to have a plan. 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:51.759 I was going to be an investment banker. 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:52.880 I was going to go to New York. 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:54.079 I was going to do all that. 00:24:54.319 --> 00:25:00.720 And then I was trying to figure out where I was going to go, Boston or New York, for an investment bank after college. 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.359 And I met a young entrepreneur. 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.440 And he took me to dinner. 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:06.960 And he says, You don't want to be a banker. 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.119 You need to get into computers and high tech. 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:11.680 And I'm like, Wow, what's that? 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.119 He said, just give it a try. 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.279 You can always become an investment banker. 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:22.880 So for me, it was you can do all the planning and create all these guardrails and focus. 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.960 But for me, opportunities were right there in front of me. 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.400 Like that one, thinking I was going to do one thing and I did another. 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.079 Reading about Regis McKenna and seeing him at a conference. 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:39.039 And those were the days when people spoke at conferences and they didn't get flooded at the end. 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:51.119 I just walked right up to him and said, I don't I don't know what this PR marketing thing is that you do, but the way you talk about the businesses you're impacting, I just said I want to work for you. 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:54.640 And then all of a sudden I get a phone call from a woman in Boston. 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.960 I'm like 22 years old. 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.319 We sat in the park in Boston Commons. 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.279 We interviewed, they had not opened an office yet. 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.079 And it turned out we were skiers. 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:08.720 The East Coast thing kind of overlapped. 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.240 She said, I think you'd be really good in PR and marketing. 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:13.759 I knew nothing about it. 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:19.119 And she hired me as her first office hire, and we helped launch the Macintosh. 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:19.519 Wow. 00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:21.599 I mean, how does that happen? 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.599 And then I met Andy Cunningham. 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.880 She was the head of the Apple team, and I was just a peon. 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:27.920 Yeah. 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:38.240 And I was on a sailboat, and I came in after a sailboat race and on a dock and saw a little rocking boat that a kid was rocking in instead of a horse. 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:44.720 And I went to the guy and struck up a relationship, and I bought the rights to the little toy, and I started a toy company. 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:47.839 Part-time while I was at Regis McKenna. 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:48.960 How old were you? 00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:50.640 24. 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:51.680 Wow. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:57.039 And I had these little wooden rocking boats built in my little hometown. 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:00.720 My dad's like, oh, call blah blah blah at Dirt Road. 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:02.559 Maybe they'll know how you can make

these boats. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:09.039 I'm not a woodworker, but I met these Vermont woodworkers and they're like, sure, we'll figure this out. 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:14.000 And I had ads in the back of New Yorker and Sailing Magazine and Smithsonian. 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:15.519 It was just mail order. 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:20.880 I did it on the weekends, and and then I didn't end Regis McKenna on a high note. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:22.559 My fault. 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.119 I was a little full of hubris and arrogance. 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:26.480 That's another podcast. 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:28.160 Stories of Silicon Valley. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.880 Okay, but now you've now you've introduced Apple and launching the Macintosh. 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:34.400 Yes, and the team. 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:41.839 Andy Cunningham and her team and go to do the rocker, the little toy rockers, for about five years. 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:44.960 But Andy's husband was in the toy business. 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:46.720 And so we always stayed in touch. 00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:52.559 And then one day I get a phone call from Andy Cunningham going, Jeff, do you know anything about routers? 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.480 I'm like, Do I know routers? 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.319 I know everything about routers. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:04.799 Andy hires me, moves me to Palo Alto, and I walk into the office, and they're talking about networking routers. 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.200 I'm talking about wood routers that you cut wood with. 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:16.160 I'm like, oh my God, I have no idea what you're talking about. 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:22.480 And I was hired to work with three comm about routers and networking. 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:26.240 And I knew nothing about computer routers. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.519 How did you get up to speed up? 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.400 Because there's all these people that think that you're an expert on routers. 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.599 Who did you go to? 00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:36.880 What did you do to like I would go to the people at 3COM and I was like, tell me about your technology. 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:38.960 You know, they would love to talk about it. 00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.799 It was in the days when people would take time. 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:47.839 And yeah, I would just sit down at a time where the technology was changing so quickly, as it always has. 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:49.599 You just stay curious. 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:50.960 You're you're open to learn. 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:57.680 I was with Andy's firm for about four years, and I went to Andy and said, I'm done. 00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.200 I need to move on. 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.000 I'm at the height of my career at the agency. 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:06.480 I just quit and I need to do something else. 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.279 And I get a call from a client, and it was Toby Corey. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.319 And I had worked with him in an agency capacity. 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:17.759 And he goes, Look, we're starting US Web. 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:18.079 Yeah. 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.480 We want you to come and do communications. 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:26.480 And I literally walked out of Cunningham into US Web in like 48 hours. 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:27.440 Wow. 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.440 And that's how things happened. 00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:36.960 You asked earlier about a highlight of my career, it was obviously being part of the IPO, it was just an amazing experience. 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:38.799 But also it was a low point. 00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:39.519 Yeah. 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:45.440 There was a part at the very end where there was not a lot of integrity and and honesty. 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:51.200 And that wasn't Toby, and it was other leadership that I had a real run in. 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.359 Well, we had to we had to bring in the new CEO. 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:55.200 Yeah, I had to write the press release. 00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:01.039 I remember the scramble after the MSNBC interview and coming in. 00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.359 And I remember you you've running around. 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.000 And I've just felt so bad for what everything that was happening. 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:09.359 And then I said, what's happening? 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:11.759 They're like, he can't be CEO anymore. 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.799 And the mad scrambled to find someone else. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:16.799 We were a publicly traded company. 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.880 The stakes were so high. 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.039 And to have that happen so publicly. 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:37.599 I don't know any other organization that I can think of, and I'm not an expert by any means that had ever had that kind of a PR situation where the CEO what I mean, he went on and said he what he believed in UFOs. 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:38.559 Time travel. 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:40.319 Time travel and UFOs, right? 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.759 And they had come to visit him. 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.079 Right. 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:46.079 And that they had influenced certain kinds of technology, fiber technology. 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:46.640 Right. 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:50.000 I mean, nowadays our stock would have probably gone up, right? 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:52.960 The difference in time, right? 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:56.640 But then the mad scrambled to find a new CEO. 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:58.799 And then he and I didn't get along. 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:00.720 He and I didn't get along either. 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:07.680 Oh my and the amount of acquisitions we can't absorb and integrate these acquisitions. 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.480 Let's be clear about the point of the acquisitions. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:11.599 Is it the technology? 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:12.319 Is it the people? 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:13.039

Is it both? 00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:13.839 Is it the market? 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:15.599 Like what are we trying to accomplish? 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:25.440 Well, right, but the money is correlated to either the technology, the people, trying to more get more market share, whatever, or some combination of all three of those, right? 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:33.119 But sometimes it would be like, we don't need any of the people, but we just want the technology and we want to embed it into it. 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:33.279 Right. 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:34.960 And I'm like, fine, let's be clear with that. 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:38.559 Let's be clear with everybody and let's structure the deal that way. 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:39.519 Yeah. 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:39.839 Right. 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.880 If we don't want their people, let's get them a nice severance package. 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.640 Let's have them come on for a transition and let's be clear with everybody about what we're doing. 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.480 Let's let's have integrity because we actually did that. 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:59.119 I believe we did the best we could with that in the early days when we would go in and we would say, hey, this is the purpose. 00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:00.160 We would be clear about that. 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.440 And then later on it changed. 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:04.480 And then I looked at it and I'm like, this place is going to implode. 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:05.920 That was high stakes, though. 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:10.640 And that's when I saw you do a very good job. 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:22.559 Those are defining moments in your career in your life when something so unexpected and such high stakes and with worldwide attention in the press. 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:24.000 And you have to keep your cool. 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:27.680 You were running around, but there was a level of calmness I saw with you. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:28.240 Yeah. 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.079 But also a level of intent. 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:31.599 You were very steady. 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:37.839 Shepherding the company through that, I can imagine is probably one of your biggest accomplishments. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:44.640 You asked about tenants about life and stuff like that, is surround yourself with honest, authentic people. 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.039 Yeah. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:51.440 And I can remember flying around the world with Bob, that other guy who bought that company. 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:52.799 Uh Whitman Hart. 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:53.920 Whitman Hart. 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:57.920 So I when that happened, when that when that happened, I said, I'm done. 00:32:58.160 --> 00:32:58.480 Yeah. 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.759 I remember saying, This isn't right for shareholders. 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:03.119 It doesn't make any sense. 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:03.519 Yeah. 00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.599 And they they were like front end, back end, customer, customer, whatever. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:16.079 And I remember walking into the first institutional investor in Boston, and he's mouthing WTF to me. 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:22.799 And on the way back, we're in the private jet, and they're all celebrating and drinking champagne. 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.680 And the stock has gone like from 75 to 10 in a week. 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:30.960 And I could be exaggerating, but it was a downward trend. 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.680 So I wrote on a napkin, I'm done. 00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:36.400 And I handed it to Bob in the plane. 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:41.119 And I went in and sat with the pilots on a jump seat. 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.559 And as we're coming into San Francisco, it's beautiful sunset. 00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:46.559 We're coming into runway two. 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:48.240 We're all strapped in. 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:51.359 And all of a sudden, all the alarms in the cockpit go off. 00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:53.920 We were going to land on top of another plane. 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:55.839 And there's a plane under us. 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.960 So they had to do a sharp upright turn. 00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.880 And you hear all this clutter and screaming in the back. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:19.280 And I open the cockpit door and the bobs and everybody, glass, food, the flight attendant, they're all pushed up against the back wall where the bathroom door is because they weren't buckled in and they were drinking and celebrating, and there's food all over the place. 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.400 And like, yeah, good call, Jeff. 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:28.239 And the jet lands, and there are like six limousines lined up, and we're all getting into our car and driver. 00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.159 I'm like, it's over. 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.119 And I walked into the office on that Monday or whatever. 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.559 Did he talk to you about that? 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.519 Or did he say that? 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:36.159 Oh, yes. 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:37.760 So that day he didn't. 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:38.800 He had a temper. 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:39.039 Yeah. 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.760 And I'm like, I'm not talking to you until we're in the office and I have people around me. 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:44.320 Right. 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:45.679 But I'm done. 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.159 And he comes into my office and he starts yelling at me. 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:52.159 You remember those officers were all glass? 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:52.800 Yes. 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:55.039 My whole team is right there. 00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:56.960 And he's like pounding on my desk. 00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.039 And he's like, I'll write you a check. 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.199 I'll give you what do you how much money do you want? 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:02.239 I'll give you stock. 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:04.719 I'm like, it's not about that.

00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:06.159 I'm done. 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:13.280 What are your beliefs and guiding values in life that help you with your decision making? 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:24.079 Strong, solid relationships, yeah, where truth, authenticity, and integrity come first, not money, not title. 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:26.239 And I stuck to that. 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:28.480 You've seen all the examples. 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:28.880 Yes. 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:31.440 And go with your gut and your heart. 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:48.079 And you don't know that earlier on in your career, but once you've had enough experience meeting people, so it's it's the integrity and having the courage to say no and walk away and know and have the confidence in your ability and your network and your relationships and yourself. 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.719 Yeah, wow. 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:52.000 It worked out. 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.760 So what three things would you tell your pre-retirement self? 00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:57.760 Don't be so hard on yourself. 00:35:57.920 --> 00:35:59.920 You've accomplished more than you think. 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:01.840 Be more present. 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.320 It really matters. 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:14.639 And then if you surround yourself with the right people and follow your instincts, you know, and you got to build a good career and skill sets and all that. 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:15.840 It works out. 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:24.960 If you're not being authentic, if you're trying to cut corners and do it all for the wrong reasons, it's sometimes you're gonna make some bad choices. 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:26.880 And we all make bad decisions. 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:37.440 And after about six months, the CEO was crazy. 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.280 I'm like, no, no, I'm out of here. 00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.119 I I can't help you. 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.000 And I'm sorry, Sequoia. 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:49.199 You brought me in, but this is beyond help. 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:52.320 And they ended up firing actually before I left. 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:55.280 You gotta sound yourself with the right people, with good people. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:58.559 And there's so many good people out there that really matters. 00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.679 And and and run from the ones that aren't, right? 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:08.000 Yeah, just call it and just if that little spitey sense there is going, oh, something's not right. 00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:09.360 It's you're probably right. 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:10.960 Listen to it, right? 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:11.360 Yeah. 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:15.840 Even if others, even if others don't, people look for validation in those moments. 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:27.119 And sometimes you're just not going to get it because other people aren't seeing it yet, or they have a different compass than you, and following your instincts is smart. 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:27.360 Yeah. 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.480 What wishes and hopes do you have for yourself in your next chapter? 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.800 That's such a great question. 00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.239 You got me all emotional. 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.559 Um a lot. 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:41.440 Right now it's really about family. 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:48.000 For me, it's just anything and everything for them and us, however, we can spend quality of time. 00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:49.280 That's the other thing. 00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:54.239 It's not the quantity of time with family and friends, it's the quality that changes everything. 00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:00.239 My hopes and dreams is that quality of time with the people you love. 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.400 With my husband, who's just on the other side of the door right now, he's probably got his ear up to the door. 00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:18.800 Um, you know, my son, we went and went to museums yesterday, and he's playing me all his favorite playlists, and he's 32 years old, and he's neurodivergent, he's on the spectrum, and he's an arborist, he's really into trees and bugs. 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:24.400 We spent the whole day, and it was all about him, and it just fills your heart. 00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:27.360 Yeah, and I couldn't do that if I was working. 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.199 You can do that when you're retired. 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.280 So it's that quality of time. 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:43.039 We are sitting at the dinner table, we're looking at the sun go down over Lake Champlain, and we're in complete disbelief that we have each other, we've got our dog, we have this pretty little place on the lake. 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:54.639 Our family is happy, they're they're working hard, they they're making families, or they're in love in their own ways, and we just want to be a part of that. 00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:58.320 Yeah, so how do we make the time and the space for that? 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:03.119 We had our entire family, all 14 of us, at the lake this summer. 00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:04.559 It was chaos. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.519 It was all about being together, and they all got along, and they're coming back. 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:10.639 That's a good thing. 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:14.079 And what can you do to just be healthier? 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:22.239 Yeah, it's meditation, it's walking, it's eating well, with a few really good cocktails here and there, and reconnecting with friends. 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.840 We haven't seen each other in years, and writing, painting and writing. 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:26.800 So, what are you writing? 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:28.639 All these amazing stories. 00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:30.000 That would be the fourth part of it. 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.840 You can do short stories too. 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:32.880 That's how I'll do it. 00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:35.679 Yeah, some of my favorite books are short stories. 00:39:35.760 -->

00:39:37.280 Yeah, that's probably what it would be. 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:39.119 I would rate it, yeah. 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:41.760 Well, I can't wait to see what you're painting. 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:48.079 Well, I did a painting in college, and this is how things happen and how things manifest themselves. 00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:55.679 And I'm not into all of that sort of thing, but when I went to college, my parents gave me a beautiful book on Vermont. 00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:01.840 There was a picture looking west over Lake Champlain and over the Adirondack Mountains with the Alpen glow. 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.920 So the mountains are kind of purpley blue, the lake is silvery. 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:10.239 And I chose one of those photographs and I painted it. 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:16.480 I still have the book and I have the grid that I used, and that's the view of our house. 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:22.239 It is, I am telling you, if I showed you that picture, it is the view from our dock. 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:23.599 Do you still have it? 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:24.159 No. 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:25.760 So you have to paint it again. 00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:26.480 Exactly. 00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:26.880 Okay. 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:34.400 When we moved to Vermont, you know, I'm just like, and I've always known that that was the view from my parents' house, but they didn't have it then. 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:34.960 Yeah. 00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:36.719 I can't wait to say it. 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.519 That's a good that's that's a good thing to think about doing it. 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:40.880 I enjoyed this so much. 00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:41.360 Thank you. 00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:42.800 This has really been fun recently. 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:43.840 So much fun. 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:44.320 Yeah. 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:50.400 Wow, I can't even imagine what it must have been like on that airplane ride. 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:55.679 Jeff's next chapter has been full of spontaneity and community building. 00:40:56.159 --> 00:41:01.440 I admire his practice of enjoying the moment and seeing that life is full of open doors. 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:05.280 You just need to be present enough to see them and open them. 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:12.320 It was such a joy to discover that Jeff and I didn't miss a beat reconnecting and reigniting our friendship. 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.159 Did you know it's been about 10 years since we last spoke? 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.360 I hope this inspires you to reach out to someone in your life that you've been thinking about. 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:26.000 If so, I hope it's as fabulous for you as it's been for us. 00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:35.039 I'm happy to share that Jeff is coming to San Francisco next month, and we're planning on getting together with others we used to work with at SAP. 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.719 We're calling it Slap Happy Sappies. 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:43.199 Courtney, I know, but this is what happens when you get together with old friends. 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:46.960 And let's face it, life is just more fun with friends. 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:51.360 Do you have a story to share or a suggestion for the podcast? 00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.239 If so, we'd love to hear from you. 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.039 Visit us at next chapter conversations dot com powered by GoDaddy. 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.880 Until next time, remember, today is a gift. 00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:04.719 Go out and treat yourself.