บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Building System Tray Windows Apps with Joe Finney

It's true. 89 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:37.719 This is the best. 90 00:03:37.860 --> 00:03:40.580 That was the best story. Sorry, we're out of it. 91 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.139 What do you mean you're not a beer? 92 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:44.900 Drank all the beer. 93 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:52.020 But yeah, ranch dressing became very popular among those coming 94 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:53.259 to America for the first time. 95 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.000 Yeah, it was a good reminder that American people are 96 00:03:56.020 --> 00:03:59.370 pretty freaking awesome. There's some really stupid stuff going on 97 00:03:59.379 --> 00:04:00.400 with your government, but. 98 00:04:00.310 --> 00:04:01.750 The people- People are amazing. 99 00:04:01.909 --> 00:04:03.889 And the party was awesome. Yeah. 100 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:06.310 And I guess that's it. What do you got for 101 00:04:06.370 --> 00:04:07.569 space and tech, Richard? 102 00:04:07.710 --> 00:04:09.990 Well, obviously, I'm speculating on the total number of launches 103 00:04:10.009 --> 00:04:13.550 this year. I wonder if we're actually going to exceed 2025. 104 00:04:13.550 --> 00:04:15.729 2025 might have been the peak year because over 300 105 00:04:15.729 --> 00:04:16.850 launches is astonishing. 106 00:04:17.189 --> 00:04:17.709 Yeah. 107 00:04:17.769 --> 00:04:21.459 And the biggest reason will be SpaceX because- Falcon nine 108 00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:24.939 at this moment is at 114 launches. Normally they get 109 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:32.389 out to about 150, but with starship 14, which just happened, 110 00:04:33.129 --> 00:04:34.709 Elon said, he's not going to fly any more star 111 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:37.889 links on Falcon nines. And that's the bulk of Falcon 112 00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:40.350 nine flying. So I don't know where we're going to 113 00:04:40.370 --> 00:04:42.610 get to. China's also certainly going to have a record year. 114 00:04:42.629 --> 00:04:44.740 They're at 70. Now they might be as high as 115 00:04:45.019 --> 00:04:47.079 nine by the end of the year. So in terms 116 00:04:47.139 --> 00:04:51.430 of total flights, so we're, You know, last year, SpaceX 117 00:04:51.529 --> 00:04:56.579 was over 170 and was basically double what China could do. 118 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:58.720 Now the numbers are getting more palatable. But let's go 119 00:04:58.759 --> 00:04:59.379 down the timeline. 120 00:04:59.439 --> 00:04:59.680 Okay. 121 00:04:59.819 --> 00:05:02.920 In January, first time, an unprecedented event on the International 122 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:05.139 Space Station. At the time, we didn't know who it was, 123 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:06.680 but now we do. It was Mike Finke, who was 124 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:12.509 part of the Expedition Crew 12 group, actually evacuated from 125 00:05:12.529 --> 00:05:14.769 the space station. He had a medical event. And they 126 00:05:14.790 --> 00:05:17.290 decided the safest thing was to return him. And because 127 00:05:17.949 --> 00:05:20.660 the crew dragon basically has these fitted seats, that meant 128 00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:23.319 the whole team had to go. So all four of 129 00:05:23.339 --> 00:05:27.759 them loaded up and left early, essentially, left in January. Now, 130 00:05:27.779 --> 00:05:29.720 that didn't leave the space station empty. There's normally seven 131 00:05:29.740 --> 00:05:31.759 people on the space station. There's always a Soyuz there 132 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.069 as well. So they were now down to three. And 133 00:05:34.129 --> 00:05:38.610 then in the following month, the Crew 12 will launch 134 00:05:38.769 --> 00:05:40.829 up to the ISS. Yeah, so they were Crew 11. 135 00:05:40.829 --> 00:05:46.019 This was Crew 12 that came back to restaff. In March, MS-33, 136 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:49.540 which was a progress booster, launched off of Baikonur, Cosmo Jones, 137 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.699 Site 31. And I only bring that up because, as 138 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.839 we mentioned in the previous show in 2025, there had 139 00:05:54.860 --> 00:05:57.360 been an accident at Site 31 that had damaged the 140 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:01.779 service table and basically rendered the place inoperable. Right. Discussion 141 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:03.360 of whether it would take more than a year to 142 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:05.240 repair it and how the space station was going to operate. 143 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.980 But here they were less than six months later up 144 00:06:08.019 --> 00:06:15.379 and operating. Now, biggest space events of 2026, Artemis II, April. Now, unfortunately, 145 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:17.189 they launched on April 1st. I don't know what you 146 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:20.750 were thinking, but okay. Uh, so first time we've sent 147 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:23.949 humans around the moon, uh, one would argue, oh, why 148 00:06:23.970 --> 00:06:26.209 are we replaying Apollo eight? And heck, we didn't even 149 00:06:26.250 --> 00:06:28.639 do Apollo eight because Apollo eight went into orbit around 150 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.680 the moon and Artemis two did not. But the comparison 151 00:06:31.699 --> 00:06:34.160 is a little unfair because in the Apollo program, they 152 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:36.519 did Apollo seven, where they literally, the first time they 153 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.019 put humans in the Apollo capsule after the fire of 154 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:42.459 Apollo one, they only went as far as, as low 155 00:06:42.500 --> 00:06:44.769 earth orbit. This was a test of the fur of 156 00:06:44.829 --> 00:06:46.629 the life support system and so forth. And they did 157 00:06:46.670 --> 00:06:47.930 go all the way to the moon and back. Uh, 158 00:06:48.230 --> 00:06:51.410 And the footage is incredible. And the crew was awesome. 159 00:06:52.029 --> 00:06:55.129 And everybody who paid attention to it loved it. I 160 00:06:55.149 --> 00:06:57.189 just don't know how many people

really paid attention. 161 00:06:57.209 --> 00:06:58.740 We got to see the dark side of the moon 162 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.339 for the first time. Pink Floyd was very happy about that. 163 00:07:01.459 --> 00:07:03.920 I mean, none of that is true. We've seen the 164 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:05.399 back side of the moon many times. That's why it's 165 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:06.300 not dark. 166 00:07:06.379 --> 00:07:08.730 Have you met me? Have we met, Richard? 167 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:09.000 Yeah. 168 00:07:09.449 --> 00:07:09.930 Once or twice. 169 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:11.850 Okay. 170 00:07:11.870 --> 00:07:13.649 The real question is, did they play the song? That's 171 00:07:13.670 --> 00:07:14.430 the real question. 172 00:07:14.610 --> 00:07:16.160 That's the true test. 173 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:17.959 I see you on the dark side of the moon. Yes, 174 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:23.199 I do. In May, New Glenn, who'd had two successful 175 00:07:23.259 --> 00:07:29.069 flights in 2025, in May, their pad test, just a 176 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:33.850 static test, resulted in one of the largest rocket-based explosions 177 00:07:34.069 --> 00:07:37.750 in history, if not the largest. A fully fueled New 178 00:07:37.790 --> 00:07:42.069 Glenn exploded on the pad. Likely a valve issue with 179 00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:46.199 one of the main engines on New Glenn. The pad 180 00:07:46.259 --> 00:07:48.740 is seriously damaged and is still in the process of 181 00:07:48.779 --> 00:07:51.860 being rebuilt. They probably will not fly this year. In June, 182 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:54.959 the SpaceX IPO. It's a thing that Elon said he'd 183 00:07:55.220 --> 00:07:58.800 never do. Right. Because it would impair the mission to Mars. 184 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:01.100 He did. Now, it looks like he did it. I 185 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:04.360 got a whole talk on this. But to fix financial 186 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:06.480 problems that he had, it's the largest. 187 00:08:06.500 --> 00:08:08.319 Yeah, apparently the trillionaire needs more money. 188 00:08:08.339 --> 00:08:11.660 Apparently. Well, he needed to mostly get his loans off 189 00:08:12.019 --> 00:08:14.860 of Tesla, whose stock is not as valuable as it 190 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:15.279 used to be. 191 00:08:15.540 --> 00:08:15.759 Yeah. 192 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.050 And so he did this as largest IPO in history. 193 00:08:18.910 --> 00:08:20.610 It's a very questionable IPO in a lot of ways. 194 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:23.170 He didn't actually follow all the rules. He was able 195 00:08:23.209 --> 00:08:25.389 to get the administration to change the rules just for 196 00:08:25.449 --> 00:08:28.589 his IPO. And, you know, the market is, is being 197 00:08:28.649 --> 00:08:32.019 very suspect. It's frustrating because it is an important company 198 00:08:32.100 --> 00:08:33.840 and it is, you know, what they're doing with Starship 199 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.799 is profound. And I wonder if it won't be okay 200 00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:39.200 in the longterm. It's just, you know, the ends don't 201 00:08:39.220 --> 00:08:40.600 always just by the means guys here. 202 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:41.080 Right. 203 00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:45.610 Anyway, I'll not rant too hard on that because from 204 00:08:45.649 --> 00:08:49.269 there we get into the whole, you know, data centers 205 00:08:49.330 --> 00:08:51.840 in space thing, which is how he justified the IPO 206 00:08:51.860 --> 00:08:52.600 in the first place. 207 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:53.179 Yeah. 208 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:55.259 But I'll talk about that in the computing part of it. 209 00:08:56.139 --> 00:08:58.500 In July, the Link mission, I was really excited about 210 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:05.549 this mission. The Swift Observatory is a space telescope that 211 00:09:05.629 --> 00:09:07.830 does not have its own reboost. It was put up 212 00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:09.149 at a high enough orbit that they thought they would 213 00:09:09.169 --> 00:09:12.480 get the lifespan out of it. Unfortunately, with the Level 214 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:16.480 of solar activity lately, the atmosphere actually expands and has 215 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:19.370 been dragging the Swift Observatory down. And so it was 216 00:09:19.409 --> 00:09:21.730 less than $ 100 million. They attempted to make this mission 217 00:09:21.750 --> 00:09:25.269 to intercept the Swift Observatory and reboost it. That mission 218 00:09:25.370 --> 00:09:28.820 has failed. They had problems. It was a rush job 219 00:09:29.049 --> 00:09:32.259 and clearly, you know, things go wrong. And so the 220 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:36.159 Swift Observatory is making its last observations. It'll be reentering 221 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.950 by the end of the year. In July, also Tianwen-2. 222 00:09:40.009 --> 00:09:44.840 This is the asteroid sample return mission by China arrived 223 00:09:45.059 --> 00:09:48.320 at the asteroid. This is a great name. Kamaolaue. 224 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:48.840 Yeah. 225 00:09:48.860 --> 00:09:51.000 I believe that's a Hawaiian name. So they're doing a 226 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.419 sample collection there. We have a total eclipse across parts 227 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:57.629 of Europe in August. And then the next biggest mission, 228 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:00.879 you know, there's three really important. bits of news for 229 00:10:00.909 --> 00:10:03.200 space in 2026. Here's the second one, the Nancy Grace 230 00:10:03.259 --> 00:10:06.200 Roman space telescope. So this is an infrared telescope was 231 00:10:06.220 --> 00:10:10.620 originally called the W first that then named for the astronomer. 232 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.059 It was flown on a Falcon heavy. It works very 233 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.100 much like Hubble. It's, it's even similar looking to Hubble. 234 00:10:16.179 --> 00:10:18.019 It's just that it covers more than a hundred times 235 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.490 as much

sky per image. So where Hubble is very 236 00:10:21.549 --> 00:10:25.570 much focused very, very narrowly, this has a huge viewpoint. 237 00:10:25.870 --> 00:10:28.309 Its mission is much broader than what Hubble is capable of. 238 00:10:28.470 --> 00:10:30.429 It's really one of the principal things is can we 239 00:10:30.490 --> 00:10:31.750 figure out dark energy? 240 00:10:31.970 --> 00:10:32.250 Right. 241 00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:36.620 Which is this category of we have too much energy 242 00:10:36.649 --> 00:10:38.379 in the universe for what we can see. How do 243 00:10:38.419 --> 00:10:40.659 we figure this out? So it's also going to be 244 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.700 really good at finding exoplanets, possibly even what we call 245 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.559 rogue planets that are no longer orbiting a star just 246 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:50.639 because it's so sensitive. It was launched in August. But 247 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.799 it will not reach its destination, which is the Earth-Sun 248 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:56.750 L2 point, the same place as James Webb, until the 249 00:10:56.769 --> 00:10:58.309 end of the year, somewhere around December. So we don't 250 00:10:58.350 --> 00:11:03.070 expect first light until sometime in 2027. Those images will 251 00:11:03.230 --> 00:11:07.350 be stunning and incredible. And nowhere near as difficult a 252 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:11.860 satellite as James Webb was. Third. 253 00:11:11.940 --> 00:11:12.039 Third. 254 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.090 And again, we can debate between Artemis II, Nancy Roman, 255 00:11:16.389 --> 00:11:20.419 and Starship Flight 14. So Starship tests have been going on. 256 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.159 There is 14 of them. That's why we're at 14. 257 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:25.490 This is the first Starship to actually put into orbit. 258 00:11:26.019 --> 00:11:28.039 Why did they wait so long? Clearly, they'd gotten to 259 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.080 orbital alta before, and the reason is simple. The Starship 260 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.730 MD is 150 metric tons. If they didn't control the 261 00:11:35.769 --> 00:11:38.610 deorbit of that, that would be bad. 262 00:11:38.750 --> 00:11:39.049 Right. 263 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:42.509 It's a very large, large vehicle. So they finally had 264 00:11:42.570 --> 00:11:44.789 reached a confidence level, even with the problems they had 265 00:11:45.049 --> 00:11:47.820 on 14, which we can debate. They did fully go 266 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:51.340 into orbit with the largest spacecraft ever built. It then 267 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:58.509 deployed 26 V3 Starlinks. I mean, this is not the 268 00:11:58.529 --> 00:12:00.649 same as the Starlings that are deployed on a Falcon 9. 269 00:12:00.629 --> 00:12:02.049 The ones that are deployed on a Falcon 9 are 270 00:12:02.090 --> 00:12:06.370 about 500 kilos each. These are two tons each. 2,000 kilograms. 271 00:12:06.389 --> 00:12:07.610 They're two tons each. They're huge. 272 00:12:08.190 --> 00:12:08.909 Much, much bigger. 273 00:12:08.970 --> 00:12:11.889 And it deployed 26 of them. So that's a 52 274 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:17.100 metric ton payload. Wow. There's almost nothing. There is nothing 275 00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:19.720 that could lift that much except for Starship. And Starship's 276 00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:22.240 not even at its full capacity doing that. In theory, 277 00:12:22.259 --> 00:12:24.139 they can do 100 metric tons, although they haven't done 278 00:12:24.179 --> 00:12:24.340 it yet. 279 00:12:24.500 --> 00:12:24.720 Yeah. 280 00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:27.909 So- And that's why Elon said, I'm not going to 281 00:12:27.929 --> 00:12:29.830 fly any more Falcon 9s for Starlink, which is why 282 00:12:30.009 --> 00:12:32.009 I think the overall launch numbers should be down this year. 283 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:35.649 The next flight's supposed to be in October. It may 284 00:12:35.690 --> 00:12:38.649 not be. They're still working things out. Now we're all 285 00:12:38.669 --> 00:12:41.759 speculative because it's in October. So NASA has talked about 286 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:43.899 flying Starliner. Remember that defective? 287 00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:45.019 Yeah. 288 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:47.259 Well, Boeing's still working on it. They think they want 289 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:51.100 to get an unmanned flight again to see if they 290 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.379 can have solved their control issues and might squeeze it 291 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:54.519 in by the end of the year. I doubt it. 292 00:12:55.419 --> 00:12:58.710 Other speculative missions, Griffin Mission 1 to land near the 293 00:12:58.750 --> 00:13:03.590 south pole of the moon, possibly in November. And Dream Chaser. 294 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:04.570 Do you remember Dream Chaser? 295 00:13:04.789 --> 00:13:05.450 Sounds familiar. 296 00:13:05.470 --> 00:13:07.850 This is a little space plane that's been in development 297 00:13:07.870 --> 00:13:11.360 for a long time. Originally a derivation of the X-37, 298 00:13:11.779 --> 00:13:14.159 and it was supposed to be an alternative lifeboat for 299 00:13:14.179 --> 00:13:16.559 the International Space Station that would actually work like a 300 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:19.990 space plane. land on a runway rather than splashing down 301 00:13:20.490 --> 00:13:21.909 and it's been in development for a long time it 302 00:13:22.389 --> 00:13:25.129 lost in competitions to get to the international space station 303 00:13:25.169 --> 00:13:28.289 as a cargo resupply several times i mean why do 304 00:13:28.309 --> 00:13:30.830 we need another cargo resupply we have cygnus which is 305 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:33.389 now owned by northrop grumman and it's a one-way it'll 306 00:13:33.409 --> 00:13:35.570 take a payload up to the space station and then 307 00:13:35.610 --> 00:13:37.389 it burns up on re-entry so it's good for getting 308 00:13:37.409 --> 00:13:40.330 rid of garbage you

have cargo dragon which is up 309 00:13:40.529 --> 00:13:43.299 and download so it brings stuff up to the space 310 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:45.200 station then you could load the capsule with stuff you 311 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.539 want to bring back but a capsule return is a 312 00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:50.220 fairly high g return and it takes time to fish 313 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:51.519 it out of the ocean and so forth so one 314 00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:53.919 of the arguments for dream chaser is that you'll have 315 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:57.840 a return mechanism that's low g and quick to deploy 316 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.460 so say you have you know a live animal experiment 317 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.679 and you want to return that animal to the surface 318 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.879 they have a higher chance of survival on that return 319 00:14:06.980 --> 00:14:09.179 with something like dream chaser than they would with cargo 320 00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:13.610 dragon so They've got a version ready for testing. They've 321 00:14:13.629 --> 00:14:15.090 been just trying to get permission to try it, and 322 00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:17.090 it's back up again. I think this is Jared Eisenman 323 00:14:17.129 --> 00:14:19.200 at work, and maybe we'll see a flight before the 324 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:20.659 end of the year or at least early next year. 325 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:24.059 These are all stuff that's going to be in my 326 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:25.360 space geek out at the end of the year. 327 00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:26.000 There you go. 328 00:14:26.019 --> 00:14:27.980 I'm doing half the space geek out. All right, over 329 00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:32.279 on the compute side, again, an unfinished year, but let's talk. 330 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.139 The first thing I grabbed onto in January was when 331 00:14:35.179 --> 00:14:38.730 the CEO of Western Digital, that's the hard drive manufacturer, 332 00:14:39.490 --> 00:14:45.210 admitted– in January of 2026, that all production that Western 333 00:14:45.250 --> 00:14:48.269 Digital was capable of running at full bore for hard 334 00:14:48.289 --> 00:14:51.950 drives sold. And they were taking orders for 27 and 335 00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:55.309 28 and expected it all to be sold before the 336 00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:57.529 end of the year as well. All right, the supply 337 00:14:57.570 --> 00:15:02.120 chain crisis is real. It's not going anywhere and it continues. 338 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.889 In January, we also get NVIDIA at CES announcing the 339 00:15:06.909 --> 00:15:10.309 Vera Rubin platform. This is the successor to Blackwell. Vera 340 00:15:10.350 --> 00:15:13.549 is the CPU, Rubin is the GPU. This is really 341 00:15:13.649 --> 00:15:17.990 designed for this workload, you know, completely shared memory, really efficient. 342 00:15:18.389 --> 00:15:22.789 This assembles into a thing called the NVL72. And the 343 00:15:22.870 --> 00:15:27.490 NVL72 is a 48U rack unit. So seven and a 344 00:15:27.509 --> 00:15:29.250 half feet tall, weighs about a ton and a half, 345 00:15:29.330 --> 00:15:32.529 water-cooled or liquid-cooled, depending on what you want to use, 346 00:15:32.549 --> 00:15:35.870 consumes over 100 kilowatts of energy. when running at full bore. 347 00:15:36.379 --> 00:15:39.190 It called it 72 because it has 72 GPUs. So 348 00:15:39.230 --> 00:15:42.889 this is like your unit of work. One of the 349 00:15:42.929 --> 00:15:48.289 data centers that Microsoft's built in Wisconsin ordered 4,600 of them. 350 00:15:48.629 --> 00:15:49.250 Good Lord. 351 00:15:49.429 --> 00:15:53.139 Yeah, at what, roughly 3 million a crack. I'm sure 352 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:54.500 they get a discount for bulk. 353 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:56.960 Yeah, sure they are. 354 00:15:57.419 --> 00:15:59.879 But yeah, you talk about you compute, like this is 355 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.779 the MVL-72, which becomes very relevant when we get into 356 00:16:03.950 --> 00:16:06.809 the insanity around the, the SpaceX IPO and how we 357 00:16:06.850 --> 00:16:11.000 justified the quote unquote total addressable market of $ 27 trillion 358 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.259 by doing data centers in space. Again, I'll refer you 359 00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:17.080 back to the data centers in space geek out for this, 360 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:19.710 but the MVL 72 was the unit of work that 361 00:16:19.899 --> 00:16:22.070 I used to design a satellite to say, does this 362 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:28.210 make any sense? And subsequently, um, SpaceX themselves has confirmed 363 00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:30.669 that that's exactly what they're doing, although they're doing everything 364 00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:32.309 they can to lighten it up. I think their numbers 365 00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:35.889 are still very suspect as well. So hard to know, 366 00:16:35.950 --> 00:16:40.210 and I'm not a fan. I don't think this, like Starlink, 367 00:16:40.269 --> 00:16:42.710 it's going to only be a small percentage point of compute. 368 00:16:43.049 --> 00:16:45.389 It's not the best thing that ship could be doing. 369 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.899 In July, again, I think this is something that's going 370 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:51.779 to be remembered for a long time, the hugging face 371 00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:52.639 attack by OpenAI. 372 00:16:52.970 --> 00:16:53.230 Oh, yeah. 373 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:56.450 I mean, it's not, it's totally misstated to say it 374 00:16:56.509 --> 00:16:59.470 that way. That's not what really happened. They were testing agents. 375 00:16:59.950 --> 00:17:03.649 They were using the Artifactory sandbox, which clearly, you know, 376 00:17:03.769 --> 00:17:06.829 these are maybe good AI guys, but they're terrible security guys. 377 00:17:06.890 --> 00:17:09.690 And they were testing it to hack, like they were saying. 378 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:10.230 Yeah. 379 00:17:10.299 --> 00:17:10.859 Yeah. 380 00:17:11.000 -->

00:17:12.880 Well, what they were telling it, what they're doing was 381 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:16.579 giving the agents an impossible task and just to see 382 00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:18.920 how creative they would be. And one of their creativities 383 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:22.529 was to find A relatively insecure sandbox that they were 384 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:25.230 able to get out. There are some interesting tidbits to this, 385 00:17:25.289 --> 00:17:28.329 like how they took over a wiki site to pass 386 00:17:28.430 --> 00:17:31.759 messages to each other, basically consolidate information across the agents. 387 00:17:32.410 --> 00:17:36.079 In the end, it was like 70,000 messages. Also interesting 388 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:38.319 that at one point when opening, I realized it wasn't 389 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:40.740 behaving as they expected and shut the whole thing down 390 00:17:40.779 --> 00:17:43.890 to inspect it. decided they knew what was going on, 391 00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:47.700 fired it back up again. The agents found the message 392 00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:50.180 board almost immediately and then used the data that was 393 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.740 already there to get back to work. The agents had 394 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.259 deduced that the best way to solve the unsolvable problem 395 00:17:58.299 --> 00:18:00.849 was to get some code on Hugging Face. They did 396 00:18:00.890 --> 00:18:05.049 not hack Hugging Face per se. They found unsecured credentials 397 00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:06.730 and logged in and used it. 398 00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:07.150 Right. 399 00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:09.910 And then, you know, did take advantage of some things. 400 00:18:10.049 --> 00:18:13.500 But either way, Either way, it's a warning shot. It's 401 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.220 a lot like the original worms and bot nets and 402 00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:19.000 so forth, where people just being. 403 00:18:20.859 --> 00:18:22.180 Incompetent. Yes. 404 00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:26.000 Doing experiments with their tools they don't properly supervise. 405 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:27.799 Hanlon's razor applies. 406 00:18:27.980 --> 00:18:31.799 Yeah. Which falls neatly into August, when the EU AI 407 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Act actually goes into enforcement. 408 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:34.380 Mm-hmm. 409 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:38.180 If you actually read this thing, it's impressive what they've 410 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:39.900 written here. It'll be interesting to see how well they 411 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:41.579 do enforcement. The main thing they do is they break 412 00:18:41.619 --> 00:18:47.130 down this technology into categories of risk levels. There's minimal 413 00:18:47.210 --> 00:18:50.130 risk like recommendation systems, spam filters, stuff like that that 414 00:18:50.150 --> 00:18:52.589 I'm too worried about. In your sort of limited risk scenario, 415 00:18:52.609 --> 00:18:57.950 their main stipulation is transparency. If

it's AI-generated, say it's AI-generated. 416 00:18:58.009 --> 00:19:02.329 So think in terms of stuff like chatbots and AI-generated content. 417 00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:05.309 deep fakes, all that sort of stuff that by law 418 00:19:05.369 --> 00:19:08.970 needs to be labeled. There's unacceptable risk. So anything to 419 00:19:09.009 --> 00:19:14.730 do with social scoring, manipulative systems that cause harm, biometric surveillance, 420 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:19.859 untargeted scraping of facial images, emotional recognition in the workplace, 421 00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:23.619 all considered unacceptable under the EU Act. And then the 422 00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:26.180 heart of the thing is this thing called high risk behavior. 423 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.529 So As soon as you're using this technology for hiring 424 00:19:28.549 --> 00:19:33.730 and employment or education testing, critical infrastructure, law enforcement, border, credit, 425 00:19:34.299 --> 00:19:37.059 any of those things, you need to follow through with 426 00:19:37.099 --> 00:19:43.400 a significant risk management process, quality conformity management, technical documentation, 427 00:19:43.869 --> 00:19:46.789 serious explainers about how your system works. I mean, not 428 00:19:46.849 --> 00:19:49.970 saying what every token does, but how decisions are made. 429 00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:54.750 with these tools And of course, requiring human oversight. 430 00:19:54.950 --> 00:19:55.130 Yep. 431 00:19:55.329 --> 00:19:55.710 Critical. 432 00:19:55.930 --> 00:19:56.269 Yeah. 433 00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:59.079 And I mean, a good first stab, you know, lots 434 00:19:59.130 --> 00:20:00.880 of folks feel that there's no way for government to 435 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.400 be competent. And certainly the EU has its problems. But 436 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.980 the reason we do regulations like this is so that 437 00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:10.599 there's a standard for all companies to comply to. It's 438 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.799 why you don't have formaldehyde in your milk anymore, right? 439 00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:16.619 Because we create rules to create a level playing field 440 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.329 so people can play safely. 441 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:22.799 I don't know. My uncle still misses that. formaldehyde milkshakes. 442 00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:24.579 The formaldehyde in the milk, yeah. As long as you 443 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:26.019 don't give to kids, it's great. The nice thing when 444 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:27.980 you put formaldehyde in your milk, it doesn't spoil. I mean, 445 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.740 it doesn't spoil ever. You don't have to refrigerate. You 446 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:34.380 don't have to anything. I'm referring to a book called 447 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:37.009 The Poison Squad, which is really the invention of the FDA. 448 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.690 And yeah, there was a time when there was normal 449 00:20:39.710 --> 00:20:41.630 to put formaldehyde in milk because it was so much cheaper. 450 00:20:41.670 --> 00:20:44.970 Refrigeration was very difficult. You couldn't get refrigerated milk until 451 00:20:44.990 --> 00:20:46.890 the act said, you can't put formaldehyde in the milk. 452 00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:50.759 You know, rules help. Without a doubt. 453 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.839 I solved the problem by not drinking milk. 454 00:20:53.019 --> 00:20:53.960 There you go. Good answer. 455 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:54.259 All right. 456 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.210 We've got to talk about something else computing related for 2026. 457 00:20:58.210 --> 00:21:02.410 And so in 2026, we can expect in November. NET 11. 458 00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:05.549 This will be an SCS edition,. NET 10 being the 459 00:21:05.569 --> 00:21:10.279 long-term version. The features I'm really looking for out of 11, 460 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:14.549 runtime async. So finally moving async. into the runtime, getting 461 00:21:14.569 --> 00:21:16.630 it out of the language, so our stack traces aren't 462 00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:21.950 so freaking ugly. Async is awesome right up until it isn't. So, 463 00:21:21.970 --> 00:21:24.549 you know, this change, which has taken years, should make 464 00:21:24.569 --> 00:21:26.250 a huge difference. So they're still going to leave async 465 00:21:26.289 --> 00:21:27.099 in the language, right? 466 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:27.259 Oh, yeah. 467 00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:29.380 The language elements will still be there, but the execution 468 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:31.099 path happens in the runtime. 469 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:31.539 Right. 470 00:21:31.579 --> 00:21:35.539 So it's way more understandable and behaves equally across different platforms. Like, 471 00:21:36.619 --> 00:21:38.319 it should have been done all along. Yeah. 472 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:39.500 That's good. Good move. 473 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.539 It's just hard to do. And in general, what do 474 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:44.200 we look at in 11? It's just a more mature platform. So, 475 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:47.079 I mean, native AOT is growing up. Core CLR is 476 00:21:47.349 --> 00:21:50.049 everywhere now. It's not just for Blazor. It's going to 477 00:21:50.069 --> 00:21:52.990 be You know, they're simplifying everything. And also it's like 478 00:21:53.069 --> 00:21:59.369 symmetrical behavior around arm and 64 and so on. Other 479 00:21:59.849 --> 00:22:03.009 than that, it's all speculation. And I am not unhappy 480 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:03.390 to be done. 481 00:22:03.569 --> 00:22:05.329 Yeah, me too. It was a good run. 482 00:22:05.630 --> 00:22:06.690 It was a lot of fun. Yeah. 483 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.819 All right. Well, I guess that's my turn. Time for 484 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:10.779 Better Know a Framework. 485 00:22:11.019 --> 00:22:19.680 Awesome. All right, man. What do you got? 486 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.920 Well, guess who authored today's Better

Know a Framework tool? 487 00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:26.779 Simon. 488 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:28.920 His initials are SC. 489 00:22:29.809 --> 00:22:30.789 Simon. 490 00:22:31.210 --> 00:22:31.490 Right. 491 00:22:31.630 --> 00:22:35.150 Okay. So this is Simon Kropp. SBOMB. 492 00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:38.069 Oh, so software bill of materials. Yeah. 493 00:22:38.269 --> 00:22:43.269 Adds an SPDX 3.0.1 software bill of materials to every 494 00:22:43.329 --> 00:22:47.509 NuGet package at pack time. Oh, cool. A. NET specific 495 00:22:47.569 --> 00:22:53.390 drop-in replacement for Microsoft.sbomb targets. And he told me that 496 00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:58.269 when he used the Microsoft stuff, it would take Minutes. 497 00:22:58.490 --> 00:22:58.730 Right. 498 00:22:59.009 --> 00:23:01.029 And he got it down to minus one second. 499 00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:04.509 Minus one second? Like it happens before you click the button? 500 00:23:04.529 --> 00:23:04.750 All right. 501 00:23:04.809 --> 00:23:11.400 Not minutes. It's two seconds versus 600 milliseconds. All right. 502 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:11.819 Yeah. 503 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:12.480 He cut it by 75%. 504 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:12.559 Yeah. 505 00:23:12.579 --> 00:23:13.180 So, there you go. 506 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:13.420 It's it. 507 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:20.710 That's what I got. It's good stuff. Know it, learn it, 508 00:23:20.750 --> 00:23:22.049 love it. Who's talking to us, Richard? 509 00:23:22.329 --> 00:23:26.369 Love it so much. Thanks, Simon, as usual. Yeah. Grab 510 00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:32.299 the comment off of show 1970. A track. With one 511 00:23:32.500 --> 00:23:33.880 Joe Finney. Maybe you heard of him. 512 00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:35.380 Casey and the Sunshine. 513 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:38.859 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wait, I'm going to reverse the player. 514 00:23:40.029 --> 00:23:41.869 Lots of good comments on this show, but this one 515 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:44.359 comes from Joshua Hillerup who says, I've been playing around 516 00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:48.319 with 32K token context models on my lowest-end gaming laptop 517 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:51.500 that has an eight gigabyte VRAM in the NVIDIA card. 518 00:23:51.819 --> 00:23:54.180 It has another eight gigs of shared VRAM, but that's 519 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:59.140 very slow. I get surprisingly good results though. I've been 520 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.680 currently working with management where I work to see if 521 00:24:01.700 --> 00:24:04.890 we get laptops like 12 or 16 gigs of VRAM cards, 522 00:24:05.650 --> 00:24:09.880 basically to do custom GitHub co-pilot local replacements. I say custom, 523 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.240 but it's stringing together more existing open source tools and 524 00:24:12.259 --> 00:24:14.619 configuring them for developers that can't have their stuff sent 525 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.289 to the cloud for security reasons, which is exactly what 526 00:24:17.329 --> 00:24:19.670 we were talking about, right? This local model thing is 527 00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:23.410 going to come down to sovereignty that I want control 528 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:28.200 of where my data goes around. So, yeah, absolutely. And 529 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.900 I just noticed Microsoft's now shipping or at least taking 530 00:24:32.019 --> 00:24:36.440 orders for their Surface Ultras. Have you seen this? No. 531 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:41.240 With the RTX chipset and 128 gigs of shared memory 532 00:24:41.369 --> 00:24:47.049 for 7,000 bucks? Huh. Like, Joshua, I hope you got 533 00:24:47.089 --> 00:24:49.450 your company to order that stuff like a while ago 534 00:24:49.470 --> 00:24:51.710 because if they're buying it now, boy, oh boy, you're 535 00:24:51.730 --> 00:24:52.609 paying a premium. 536 00:24:52.849 --> 00:24:54.559 Yeah, I think they said it's already sold out. 537 00:24:54.579 --> 00:24:55.410 Yeah. 538 00:24:55.650 --> 00:24:56.740 A couple of the high end. 539 00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:59.220 Yeah. Well, and why would you buy anything else if 540 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:00.200 you're going down this path? 541 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:00.779 Yeah. Right. 542 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.019 And that's the real question. And I don't, you know, 543 00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:05.180 like we just said in the 2026 history bit, like, 544 00:25:06.990 --> 00:25:09.359 I don't know when the pipeline straightens itself out. At 545 00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:12.099 some point with the raising the prices of AI stuff 546 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:15.519 and the increase in production, we are going to cross 547 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:19.339 into a reasonable realm again. But is that next year 548 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:23.460 or the year after? It's hard to know. Are we 549 00:25:23.500 --> 00:25:26.049 really going to have a crash that suddenly GPUs are 550 00:25:26.069 --> 00:25:31.140 going to get cheap? It's challenging, right? We're seeing a deleveraging, 551 00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:33.839 but nothing certain. And Joshua, thank you so much for 552 00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:35.099 your comment. And a copy of Music to Code Buy 553 00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:36.319 is on its way to you. And if you've got 554 00:25:36.339 --> 00:25:37.980 a copy of Music to Code Buy, then why would 555 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.009 you want another one? That makes no sense. But if 556 00:25:40.029 --> 00:25:41.900 you'd like a copy of Music to Code Buy. Oh, no, 557 00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:44.450 we're leaving that in. But if you'd like a copy 558 00:25:44.470 --> 00:25:45.970 of Music to Code Buy, write a comment on the 559 00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:49.170 website at. netrocks. com or on the Facebooks. We publish every 560 00:25:49.190 --> 00:25:50.369 show there. And if a comment there and I read 561 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:51.589 it on the show, we'll send you a copy of 562 00:25:51.609 --> 00:25:52.089 Music to Code Buy. 563 00:25:52.099 --> 00:25:53.799 And if you just want to get

Music to Code Buy, 564 00:25:53.859 --> 00:26:00.299 go to musictocodebuy.net. It's 2020. Two tracks in MP3, WAV, 565 00:26:00.700 --> 00:26:04.990 and or FLAC format. Go get it. All right, Joseph, 566 00:26:05.049 --> 00:26:07.970 it's finally your turn. Joseph Finney is a product owner 567 00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:11.349 and MVP by day and builds productivity apps for Windows 568 00:26:11.410 --> 00:26:14.799 at night. When he's not programming, he's birding, running, and 569 00:26:14.859 --> 00:26:18.519 enjoying tasty coffee and beer in Milwaukee. Welcome back, Joe. 570 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:19.119 Hello. 571 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:19.740 Good to be back. 572 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.880 Good to have you. What's new? What's on your mind? 573 00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:23.839 Oh, man. Apps. 574 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:24.539 Apps. 575 00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:26.720 Windows apps. 576 00:26:26.900 --> 00:26:29.619 Apps are always on your mind, man. You're an app guy. 577 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:31.900 I look forward to talking to you every year because 578 00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:33.640 I want to know what you've made next. 579 00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:36.579 Well, you're going to love this then. So let's just 580 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.539 start kind of at the beginning. Why not? 581 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:38.980 Yeah. 582 00:26:39.019 --> 00:26:42.619 The inspiration. Part of the inspiration for this discussion and 583 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:46.200 like where this is going is it kind of touches 584 00:26:46.269 --> 00:26:48.700 on everything. And one of those big things is, well, 585 00:26:49.509 --> 00:26:52.369 With memory prices where they are and with running these 586 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:56.109 local models and all the things we have, we're demanding 587 00:26:56.150 --> 00:26:59.529 more of our computers and it's more expensive to upgrade them. 588 00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:03.710 And I have found that every time I run a 589 00:27:04.069 --> 00:27:07.450 Chrome tab or open up a reason for Chrome, that's 590 00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:10.019 what half a gig of Ram. Sometimes I'll look at 591 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:13.099 my computer and it'll be like four or five gigs 592 00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:16.359 of Ram are dedicated to Chromium. Hmm. And it's crazy. 593 00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:17.700 Oh, easy, for sure. 594 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.140 It's so much RAM. 595 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.759 Well, and you've got to reboot to get it back. Like, 596 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:23.599 you can close Chrome all you want. 597 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:25.500 You can try. Yeah. 598 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.789 Yeah, you can try. And if you understand, it doesn't 599 00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:29.710 matter whether you run Chrome or Edge or, like, anything 600 00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:30.809 that uses a Chromium engine. 601 00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:31.269 Right. 602 00:27:31.309 --> 00:27:32.089 You give it time. 603 00:27:32.430 --> 00:27:33.410 It's going to take some

memory. 604 00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:38.369 It takes so much memory. And one, I'm multitasking. I'm 605 00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:40.289 doing a lot of things. I have Visual Studio. I 606 00:27:40.349 --> 00:27:44.329 have multiple terminals open. I am running Cloud. I'm running Copilot. 607 00:27:44.410 --> 00:27:47.140 I'm doing, you know, with... One of these weird things 608 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.539 about the agent workflow right now where you're deving with 609 00:27:50.660 --> 00:27:52.759 agents is that you can kind of kick them off, 610 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.200 and then they're going. And you're like, oh, I can 611 00:27:56.259 --> 00:27:59.380 fix this bug as well simultaneously over here. Oh, I 612 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:01.720 can open another tab. And you're using, and if you're 613 00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.019 like me and you're dogfooding, you're using a lot of 614 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:06.920 your own things, then you're like, oh, it's a bug. 615 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.099 I'm just going to fix that real quick while my 616 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:11.900 agents are working on other things. And as you might imagine, 617 00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:13.880 that uses a lot of system resources. 618 00:28:14.289 --> 00:28:15.549 And I'm like, hmm. 619 00:28:16.450 --> 00:28:19.170 And things start to chug and things, I'm like, uh-oh, uh-oh. 620 00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:21.549 So I'm like closing all my tabs in my windows. 621 00:28:21.589 --> 00:28:24.529 I'm like, okay, okay, we're good. But you're also still 622 00:28:24.710 --> 00:28:28.309 using your computer. And if you're at work, I am 623 00:28:28.349 --> 00:28:31.230 in an office. Sometimes it's noisy. I'm like, I want 624 00:28:31.250 --> 00:28:34.589 to listen to like local internet radio. Well, local radio 625 00:28:35.029 --> 00:28:37.970 streamed over the internet on my computer while I'm working. 626 00:28:39.029 --> 00:28:41.410 And the only way to do that was to open 627 00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:45.259 a Chrome tab. And I'm like, surely there's a more 628 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:46.140 efficient way to do this. 629 00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:47.009 Yeah. 630 00:28:47.289 --> 00:28:49.809 I bet you could just make a little Windows app. 631 00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:52.670 And so I did. So I made this little Windows app. 632 00:28:54.049 --> 00:28:55.819 I think this was part of an experiment to learn 633 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.240 about the Windows app CLI. So WinApp CLI, which is, 634 00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:01.779 it was kind of early days then, and now it's 635 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:06.099 like really good. We can talk about that. But ultimately, 636 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.579 my goal here was to make a tiny little system 637 00:29:08.619 --> 00:29:14.890 tray app that streams the local internet radio. And it's great. 638 00:29:15.150 --> 00:29:15.470 I love it. 639 00:29:16.049 --> 00:29:17.769 I called it TRDO at the time. I renamed it 640 00:29:17.789 --> 00:29:21.730 to Tradio, giving some feedback from the users. I put 641 00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:24.640 it out there. I tap into an internet radio database. 642 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.579 So you can search for anything and find them, any 643 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.730 radio station around the world. It's great. People love it. 644 00:29:33.269 --> 00:29:34.769 I love it. I use it all the time. And 645 00:29:34.950 --> 00:29:37.769 I think it uses maybe like 50 to 60 megs 646 00:29:37.829 --> 00:29:41.740 of RAM compared to an equivalent chrome tab which was 647 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.609 maybe 600 700 yeah yeah so 10 times smaller chrome's 648 00:29:45.660 --> 00:29:48.089 a pig yeah and it's and not just that but 649 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.190 it's not taking up space as a window it's meant 650 00:29:51.250 --> 00:29:53.210 to be kind of this transient experience we're like i 651 00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:55.289 just want background music right you know i want music 652 00:29:55.329 --> 00:29:58.750 to code by maybe you know something like that there's 653 00:29:58.789 --> 00:30:02.250 your um And so that was kind of the inspiration for, 654 00:30:03.049 --> 00:30:06.119 you know, I really like this. And so I put 655 00:30:06.130 --> 00:30:08.099 it out there and it turns out a lot of 656 00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:10.660 other people like it and it's really popular. People love 657 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.519 in the store. It's free. I mean, it doesn't cost 658 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:15.680 me anything. There's, I'm not running any servers. I'm not 659 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.519 running anything. It's basically a discovery service and then a 660 00:30:18.579 --> 00:30:23.420 local streaming app. It's super basic, super simple. And as 661 00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:25.990 I was using it more and more, I just kept thinking, 662 00:30:27.250 --> 00:30:30.789 Why am I reaching for Chrome or edge or my 663 00:30:30.829 --> 00:30:31.589 browser at all? 664 00:30:31.730 --> 00:30:31.990 Right. 665 00:30:32.089 --> 00:30:36.119 Right. What are those jobs that I'm doing? Maybe I'm 666 00:30:36.150 --> 00:30:39.190 reaching for it to check something, check the weather. So 667 00:30:39.210 --> 00:30:40.730 I was like checking the weather radar to be like, 668 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:42.559 all right, you know, how's my bike home commute? Is 669 00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:45.039 it going to be wet or not? I'm also doing 670 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.519 it to check like bus transit times. I'm pulling it 671 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.400 up to check, you know, when I'm at home and I'm, 672 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:53.039 we're watching a movie or a TV show and I 673 00:30:53.059 --> 00:30:54.920 have my laptop and I'm coding, obviously, you know, I've 674 00:30:54.940 --> 00:30:58.039 got to do two things at once. And I'm checking 675 00:30:58.059 --> 00:30:59.920 up like, oh, who's in this movie or is another thing? 676 00:30:59.960 --> 00:31:02.700 And you have to pull up

IMDB or whatever it is. 677 00:31:03.619 --> 00:31:06.220 And I just had the idea of, you know what? 678 00:31:07.829 --> 00:31:12.130 Why don't I just build little Windows apps to solve 679 00:31:12.289 --> 00:31:14.569 every single problem I'm reaching for my browser? 680 00:31:14.890 --> 00:31:15.109 Yeah. 681 00:31:15.549 --> 00:31:18.890 It's really easy to do. I mean, right now I'm 682 00:31:18.970 --> 00:31:23.369 using Opus 5.5 and Sonnet 5.5. They are amazing. The 683 00:31:23.450 --> 00:31:26.569 WinApps CLI. The team who's been working on that has 684 00:31:26.609 --> 00:31:29.740 been laser focused on just making it incredibly productive. And 685 00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:33.579 it is, it is amazing. And so what I'll do 686 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.980 is I'll just say, Hey, I want a, a little 687 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.769 tray up that shows me NOAA weather radar. And there's 688 00:31:42.809 --> 00:31:48.269 this great new, uh, mapping NuGet package from Morton. He's well, 689 00:31:48.289 --> 00:31:50.630 he wasn't MVP and now he's a he's crossed over. 690 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:55.019 He's now a Microsoft employee. Yeah, and he released this mapping. 691 00:31:55.220 --> 00:32:00.380 It's winuiex.maps. It's basically a native maps control because if 692 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:04.660 we remember, Microsoft deprecated the previous one under UWP and 693 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.160 replaced it with a web view. So that's a Chrome 694 00:32:07.349 --> 00:32:08.809 in the background, Chromium instance. 695 00:32:08.990 --> 00:32:09.150 Yep. 696 00:32:09.349 --> 00:32:09.829 Web view too. 697 00:32:10.009 --> 00:32:10.410 Once again. 698 00:32:10.849 --> 00:32:12.789 Once again. And so I'm not interested in that, but 699 00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:15.509 if I can have a native one, great. And NOAA 700 00:32:15.529 --> 00:32:18.769 weather radar is... Tiles are free. Well, free, you know, 701 00:32:18.789 --> 00:32:20.910 the government license of you can use them, but we 702 00:32:21.009 --> 00:32:23.750 do not guarantee, you know, there, there's no amount of 703 00:32:23.809 --> 00:32:26.089 uptime and we can throttle you if we want to. Right. 704 00:32:26.369 --> 00:32:29.299 And I said, Hey, you know, Opus build this and 705 00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:31.099 it did it. And now I have a little tray app. 706 00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:33.220 It's a little icon. I click on it. It pops up. 707 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.420 I look at my weather radar. I click away. it disappears. 708 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:37.799 And then after a minute, it cleans up all the 709 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.519 resources and goes and like shrinks way down. So then, 710 00:32:40.579 --> 00:32:41.059 and so this. 711 00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:42.440 Is the next thing you need to do is just 712 00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:44.900 create the one tray app that can launch all of 713 00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:46.099 your little windows apps. 714 00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:49.680 Tremont. No,

I haven't, believe me, I haven't talked about this. 715 00:32:50.019 --> 00:32:53.140 So I was building a couple of these. I think 716 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:55.700 I probably built like five or six in a day. 717 00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.839 So I think this is the, the thing that when 718 00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:01.809 people think about like AI coding and they kind of 719 00:33:01.869 --> 00:33:04.819 freak out about like we're going to have our banking 720 00:33:04.859 --> 00:33:07.059 software using a coding. And you touched on this with 721 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:09.759 the EU stuff. And I'm like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. 722 00:33:09.980 --> 00:33:10.200 Yeah. 723 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.579 There, the line between like what software can do, it 724 00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:16.440 used to be kind of like, well, it needs to 725 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.230 be a big thing because it's really expensive to make software. 726 00:33:19.349 --> 00:33:21.730 It needs to be really important and valuable and return. 727 00:33:22.349 --> 00:33:22.769 Not anymore. 728 00:33:22.970 --> 00:33:23.910 No, not anymore. 729 00:33:23.930 --> 00:33:27.150 No little ideas you've always had, but just like you 730 00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:29.529 knew what the commit was. So you never got there. Right. 731 00:33:29.650 --> 00:33:33.569 Exactly. And yeah, Part of it is that models are 732 00:33:33.589 --> 00:33:36.529 getting really good, but also part of it is that 733 00:33:37.329 --> 00:33:41.230 there was this expertise maybe hidden. And so like, is 734 00:33:41.269 --> 00:33:44.289 it really easy? And like web was really nice because 735 00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:46.950 it could be driven by models, right? They can be 736 00:33:47.309 --> 00:33:49.730 in there. Maybe like the dom checking it, testing it, 737 00:33:49.910 --> 00:33:55.210 validating it. With WinApp CLI, they have built automation, UI 738 00:33:55.250 --> 00:33:59.099 automation into this, which means I say, hey, Opus, build this. 739 00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:02.700 And then I can literally walk away. And the app 740 00:34:02.819 --> 00:34:06.500 is sitting there opening, scrolling, entering text, doing things. It's 741 00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:10.599 taking screenshots along the way, pulling them back in, evaluating, reevaluating. 742 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:12.079 It's amazing. 743 00:34:12.380 --> 00:34:14.480 I think this is the real point you're making here, Joe, 744 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:19.010 and your whole description of there. It's a series of distraction. 745 00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:25.429 You're just multitasking. The bigger thing here is that you're 746 00:34:25.469 --> 00:34:29.110 controlling the amount of attention you put on things. And 747 00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:32.019 normally to write code, You need all your attention pretty 748 00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:33.010 much focused on it. 749 00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:33.679 Right. 750 00:34:33.699 --> 00:34:36.960 So the fact that you can get your idea manifest 751 00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.639 in code with only a little bit of attention. 752 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:40.619 Yeah. 753 00:34:41.059 --> 00:34:43.760 And really you're spreading across multiple projects. Like most people 754 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:47.050 I know, and I'm now one of them, have several 755 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:51.159 different projects underway at the same time. that take occasional 756 00:34:51.260 --> 00:34:54.260 bits of attention to see where the agents have got to. 757 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:56.619 And then you give them new instructions or redirect them. 758 00:34:57.070 --> 00:35:00.530 Occasionally I go, now this is a mess, stop. This 759 00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:02.050 is going to require more attention than I'm prepared to 760 00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:05.469 pay right now. Give me a reminder to come back 761 00:35:05.530 --> 00:35:06.610 and clean this mess up. 762 00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:09.579 I just had a revelation that I need to change 763 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.059 my product name to music to write prompts by. Oh, geez. 764 00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:16.110 Music to, yeah. Well, music to Flow By. 765 00:35:16.250 --> 00:35:19.010 Flow By works. Yeah, music to Flow By is great. 766 00:35:19.030 --> 00:35:19.269 Yeah. 767 00:35:19.730 --> 00:35:21.170 To manage agents by. 768 00:35:21.449 --> 00:35:21.590 Yep. 769 00:35:22.190 --> 00:35:24.909 So part of it is that like, oh, we're a 770 00:35:24.929 --> 00:35:26.929 little bit of attention, a little bit of a problem. 771 00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:29.349 But anybody who's really tried to build software, I mean, 772 00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:31.610 if you get it, if you've seen the whole thing, 773 00:35:31.699 --> 00:35:34.559 you're like, oh, I could make a web app, but 774 00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:36.539 then I have to host it, then I have to blah, blah, blah. 775 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:39.940 And then you have to like, kind of is like, 776 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:41.460 I don't want to do that. I don't want to 777 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:42.300 put it out there. 778 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:42.579 Yeah. 779 00:35:42.699 --> 00:35:43.340 I don't want to use it. 780 00:35:43.340 --> 00:35:44.039 Yeah. 781 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.610 What I have found is with these little apps, I 782 00:35:47.619 --> 00:35:50.750 call them my little tray apps. The problem is small. 783 00:35:50.969 --> 00:35:54.150 The effort is also small. I mean, you're obviously using tokens, 784 00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:57.630 but they solve a real problem. And then you can 785 00:35:58.130 --> 00:36:00.590 bundle them up, package them, put them out on the 786 00:36:00.610 --> 00:36:02.389 internet and other people can download them and use them. 787 00:36:02.530 --> 00:36:06.469 And I'm talking about no internet, no login, no credentials, 788 00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:09.670 no servers, no APIs. Like you can get to a 789 00:36:09.710 --> 00:36:13.550 place where we are building solutions to

little problems that 790 00:36:13.590 --> 00:36:16.789 we have. And it's worth a little bit of effort 791 00:36:16.989 --> 00:36:18.530 like that. It's kind of the thing is like, you know, 792 00:36:18.550 --> 00:36:21.170 the problem it's kind of reached it's it's come down 793 00:36:21.210 --> 00:36:24.849 to the place where now it's doable and it actually 794 00:36:24.889 --> 00:36:26.710 works really well. And so that was kind of like, 795 00:36:26.949 --> 00:36:28.860 this is all preamble to a little project I've been 796 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:32.679 working on now that I call tray Tober and I 797 00:36:32.739 --> 00:36:37.099 am shipping a new windows system tray app every day 798 00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:37.559 in October. 799 00:36:38.110 --> 00:36:40.710 You're crazy. And starting with Trey Radio. Yeah. 800 00:36:40.750 --> 00:36:42.590 Well, Trey Radio has been out now for like a 801 00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:43.730 year plus. Oh, wow. 802 00:36:43.750 --> 00:36:44.469 It's been that long. 803 00:36:44.489 --> 00:36:44.679 Okay. 804 00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:48.219 It's been that long. So, I did feature it. V2 805 00:36:48.300 --> 00:36:51.159 brought the VLC engine in and a bunch of other things. So, 806 00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:52.579 it's kind of like revamped. 807 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:54.519 Do you happen to know Atlee Hunter? 808 00:36:55.099 --> 00:36:55.599 No, I don't. 809 00:36:56.139 --> 00:37:00.230 Back in the Windows phone days, he was a superstar producer. 810 00:37:00.650 --> 00:37:03.130 Windows Phone App Producer. And he would. 811 00:37:03.170 --> 00:37:05.110 Yeah, he was a phone app a day kind of guy. 812 00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:06.000 Without an LLF. 813 00:37:06.099 --> 00:37:07.619 Phone app a day. Yeah. 814 00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:10.179 Well, this is the thing is, part of it is, 815 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:11.400 why do I reach for my browser? 816 00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:11.900 Yeah. 817 00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:13.039 And the other part of it is, why do I 818 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:13.780 reach for my phone? 819 00:37:14.059 --> 00:37:14.280 Right. 820 00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:16.639 When I'm holding my computer on my lap, that can 821 00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:19.019 do all of these things. And I'm like, and then 822 00:37:19.059 --> 00:37:20.519 I pull my phone out to do something. And if 823 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.039 it's a text or a call, sure. 824 00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:22.300 Yeah. 825 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:22.519 Right? 826 00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:26.159 Like, all right, I get it. But if it's like, yeah, checking, 827 00:37:26.809 --> 00:37:29.469 you know, a sports score or checking a thing and... 828 00:37:29.949 --> 00:37:32.369 I realize what I'm doing in my head is, oh, 829 00:37:32.389 --> 00:37:34.889 I don't want to open my browser because my RAM 830 00:37:34.949 --> 00:37:37.190 is already at a very, you know, so I'm not 831 00:37:37.210 --> 00:37:39.889 going to open a browser. So to save my memory, 832 00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:42.500 I'm going to open my phone because, you know, they 833 00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:44.980 don't share memory. But what I could do is open 834 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.820 my little sports tray app, pop that guy open, boom, 835 00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:50.940 there's a sports course right there. And I close it 836 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.360 and it's gone. And it takes, what, 20 megs of RAM? 837 00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.800 So the whole idea of like, are these even worth it? 838 00:37:57.250 --> 00:37:59.170 Who knows? And so I'm building it every single one 839 00:37:59.190 --> 00:38:03.269 of these every day, releasing them on GitHub. I'm building, 840 00:38:03.289 --> 00:38:08.250 I'm signing the MSI X's publishing and exit a 64 841 00:38:08.250 --> 00:38:11.269 and arm 64 for each. And there's a whole organization 842 00:38:11.289 --> 00:38:13.760 called trade land. And I kind of want to, you know, 843 00:38:13.780 --> 00:38:15.340 this is a little bit of an experiment and I 844 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:17.280 kind of like a call to action for people of like, 845 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:19.639 what are those little problems that we can do that 846 00:38:19.659 --> 00:38:21.739 we could solve? Like, what are these little tray apps? 847 00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:24.619 Are they, you know, are they real? I don't know. Like, 848 00:38:24.940 --> 00:38:26.019 I don't know if any of these are going to 849 00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:28.710 be really successful. But it's so easy to do the 850 00:38:28.769 --> 00:38:31.199 experimentation and to put it out there in the real 851 00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:34.360 world and see how people use them. If I use them, 852 00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:36.000 I mean, a few of these I do, I have 853 00:38:36.019 --> 00:38:38.400 been using heavily. So I know a couple of them 854 00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:41.360 are winners, but I'm curious to hear what other people think. 855 00:38:41.420 --> 00:38:45.219 I mean, yeah. What are your computer use experiences here? 856 00:38:45.820 --> 00:38:51.300 I want an app, maybe you can help, that creates 857 00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:53.579 a cup of espresso and delivers it to me. Nice. 858 00:38:53.909 --> 00:38:54.280 Yeah. 859 00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:56.079 Does it can be digital? 860 00:38:56.139 --> 00:39:01.280 Physical interaction. Oh, no, no, no. 861 00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:03.269 Some things you just can't do with an app. 862 00:39:03.329 --> 00:39:05.730 Confined to the tray. Yeah. Stay in the tray. 863 00:39:06.309 --> 00:39:07.070 Laws of physics. 864 00:39:07.349 --> 00:39:10.269 Yeah. I mean, there are apps called caffeinated and espresso 865 00:39:10.329 --> 00:39:13.159 that are all about keeping your screen awake, but it's 866 00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:14.579 more of a digital caffeine, you know? 867 00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:17.559 Well, and there are robotic solutions to that, but you know, 868 00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:20.510 it's an awfully expensive cup of

espresso. It is. It is. 869 00:39:21.579 --> 00:39:22.300 Only the first one. 870 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:24.050 Carl, I think you just have to work from a 871 00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:24.489 coffee shop. 872 00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:26.210 That's what it is. Well, there you go. 873 00:39:26.449 --> 00:39:27.280 See, this is a. 874 00:39:27.409 --> 00:39:29.199 I mean, if you had this studio, would you be 875 00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:30.980 going to a coffee shop to work? I mean. 876 00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:32.019 Probably not. 877 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:32.659 Probably not. 878 00:39:32.699 --> 00:39:33.300 Probably not. 879 00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:34.199 We should take a break. 880 00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:36.079 Yeah, let's do that. We'll be right back after these 881 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:42.300 very important messages. Developers are asking a new question. Do 882 00:39:42.340 --> 00:39:46.110 we still need third-party libraries when AI can generate so 883 00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:50.860 much code? For common UI tasks, maybe. but not always. 884 00:39:51.699 --> 00:39:58.500 But deep functionality is different. Document editing, PDF generation, rendering, conversion, 885 00:39:58.659 --> 00:40:02.510 and enterprise document workflows are the result of years of engineering, 886 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.530 extensive testing, and millions of real-world deployments. AI can generate code, yeah, 887 00:40:07.590 --> 00:40:11.889 but it can't instantly generate decades of proven document technology. 888 00:40:12.670 --> 00:40:17.289 TXTextControl gives developers that foundation so you can focus on 889 00:40:17.349 --> 00:40:21.920 building your applications not rebuilding a document engine. Learn more 890 00:40:22.059 --> 00:40:23.639 at textcontrol.com. 891 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:28.800 And we're back. 892 00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:29.030 It's. 893 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:31.309 NET Rocks. I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin talking to 894 00:40:31.329 --> 00:40:35.610 our friend Joe Finney about Traytober. 895 00:40:35.650 --> 00:40:36.369 Traytober. 896 00:40:36.989 --> 00:40:39.570 But you're right. There's so much stuff in the system 897 00:40:39.590 --> 00:40:41.559 tray we don't care about. We should put stuff in 898 00:40:41.579 --> 00:40:43.360 the system tray we do care about. 899 00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:43.699 Yeah. 900 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.059 Uh, the, the imagination part of developing has grown to 901 00:40:48.099 --> 00:40:51.519 be the big dominant part of brain power right now. Yeah. 902 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:52.039 Right. 903 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:56.139 And so, and we're not used to that. We're used to, oh, well, 904 00:40:56.179 --> 00:40:58.199 if we only had something that did this, okay, we'll 905 00:40:58.219 --> 00:41:00.699 get to work on it right away, you know? And 906 00:41:00.739 --> 00:41:04.360 now it's, it's you, your imagination is what's going to, uh. 907 00:41:05.500 --> 00:41:08.059 I've been talking to organizations that have gotten through their 908 00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:11.559 feature lists on their key products. They're at the point 909 00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:13.119 now where it's like, we have to wait for customer 910 00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:16.849 feedback now. We outran the customers. And they're not laying off. 911 00:41:17.409 --> 00:41:19.269 What they're doing now is going through the back catalog. 912 00:41:19.329 --> 00:41:22.550 What have we never gotten to? And also, what never 913 00:41:22.670 --> 00:41:25.469 made the list because it was never going to get 914 00:41:25.550 --> 00:41:27.610 to it? It was going to end up way back 915 00:41:27.699 --> 00:41:32.579 on the backlog. And stuff's emerging. Just so many different 916 00:41:32.619 --> 00:41:35.260 bits of code. It's the same thing of, You knew 917 00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:37.440 what the barrier was to entry for that idea. So 918 00:41:37.460 --> 00:41:39.900 you never went past the idea. And now you got 919 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:42.019 to sort of dust that brain off. It's like, what 920 00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:44.119 are all those ideas? Because we could do them. Yeah. 921 00:41:44.260 --> 00:41:44.460 Yeah. 922 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:47.179 I go into that all the time at work where people, 923 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:50.079 you go into a meeting and talk about hypothetical designs 924 00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:51.639 or hypothetical solutions. 925 00:41:52.019 --> 00:41:53.989 That takes more time than just building it. 926 00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:55.409 Let's build it four different ways. 927 00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:56.050 Yeah. 928 00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:58.530 And then go into the meeting and think about it. 929 00:41:58.550 --> 00:42:02.070 You're exactly right. I had exactly that experience. Four ideas 930 00:42:02.110 --> 00:42:03.469 for how to solve the problem. Build them all. 931 00:42:03.710 --> 00:42:04.190 Build them all. 932 00:42:04.289 --> 00:42:05.010 And then think about it. 933 00:42:05.329 --> 00:42:07.889 And then showed them off, decided three of them were 934 00:42:07.929 --> 00:42:10.250 worth going to ABC testing and put them out. 935 00:42:10.510 --> 00:42:13.769 And I think that's another bigger discussion here. And I'm 936 00:42:13.829 --> 00:42:15.469 sure that we, I don't know how much you've been 937 00:42:15.510 --> 00:42:19.280 paying attention to the likes of native development news. But 938 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.940 with AI coding, you can build for a native now. Previously, 939 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:26.619 a lot of these cross-platform tools and web-based tools was 940 00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.139 a matter of speed and harmonization and consistency. 941 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:30.559 Reusability. 942 00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:31.559 Yeah. 943 00:42:31.659 --> 00:42:32.380 Reusability. 944 00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:34.619 Guess what? That's not a problem anymore. That's not a 945 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.420 barrier anymore. And that is kind

of my point here. Like, 946 00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:39.559 I feel like I have too many points with this, uh, 947 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:42.659 this tray experiment here, but a big one is like, 948 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:46.679 look how easy it is to build small native experiences 949 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:49.760 that are nice and delightful, right? Like you, there's all 950 00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:53.409 these little paper cuts and like painful points, uh, around 951 00:42:53.429 --> 00:42:56.329 your operating system, around the, the programs that you use 952 00:42:56.510 --> 00:42:58.909 that it's like, Yeah, you don't want to rebuild Photoshop 953 00:42:59.030 --> 00:43:01.130 in Rust. Not that anyone would ever try to do that. 954 00:43:01.469 --> 00:43:03.269 That crazy project that people are doing. 955 00:43:03.369 --> 00:43:05.050 Who would do that? Nobody's going to do that. 956 00:43:05.369 --> 00:43:05.760 Yeah. 957 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:06.530 Somebody's doing that. 958 00:43:06.739 --> 00:43:07.360 Someone's doing it. 959 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.039 Have you found any models that will write in assembly 960 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.019 language or C? 961 00:43:11.300 --> 00:43:14.179 No, I have not. I haven't even tried. I've thought 962 00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:15.699 about it because there's... I don't know if you know 963 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:21.690 about the Windows Rust. You can basically build Rust Windows apps. 964 00:43:22.030 --> 00:43:22.230 Yeah. 965 00:43:22.269 --> 00:43:22.469 So. 966 00:43:23.010 --> 00:43:24.550 I've thought about building one of those. One of the 967 00:43:24.590 --> 00:43:27.210 apps coming down does use the new reactor UI. That's 968 00:43:27.250 --> 00:43:33.030 more of a JSX, uh, react style fluent language. So 969 00:43:34.030 --> 00:43:36.210 a lot of it is let's just experiment and see 970 00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:38.889 what works. Like let's highlight how easy it is to 971 00:43:38.949 --> 00:43:41.489 build native. And when I say native, yeah, I don't 972 00:43:41.530 --> 00:43:45.230 mean assembly because the models are really good. Like there 973 00:43:45.269 --> 00:43:48.699 was previously some challenges with XAML where they, you know, 974 00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:51.619 Wouldn't get demo. They would maybe use more HTML styles 975 00:43:51.659 --> 00:43:53.469 and then it would break and fall apart. And then 976 00:43:53.489 --> 00:43:55.809 there was no feedback loop. Right. But now there's like 977 00:43:55.829 --> 00:43:58.869 this full feedback loop. I can literally give it, I 978 00:43:58.909 --> 00:44:01.469 can hold down the space bar, give it a detailed prompt. 979 00:44:01.889 --> 00:44:04.550 I've built a whole skill that explains, you know, what's good, 980 00:44:04.590 --> 00:44:05.949 what's bad, how to do it. I give it an 981 00:44:06.050 --> 00:44:10.260 icon file. I walk away 30 minutes later. 982 00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:10.639 Yeah. 983 00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:10.980 Right.

984 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.139 We're not even talking hours because this is a small thing. 985 00:44:13.179 --> 00:44:14.880 And I have an app that does this little thing. 986 00:44:15.219 --> 00:44:17.639 Mm-hmm. And often these models do a better job with 987 00:44:17.659 --> 00:44:21.360 small bytes anyway. Right. And then you can scale it up, 988 00:44:21.429 --> 00:44:25.389 like get the initial idea down and then flush it out. 989 00:44:25.409 --> 00:44:28.670 More and more I'm feeling like the narrower I can 990 00:44:28.710 --> 00:44:32.489 make the spec, at least initially, the better off I am. Absolutely. 991 00:44:32.989 --> 00:44:37.110 And obviously for these, I'm making these little apps. But one, 992 00:44:37.130 --> 00:44:40.449 they could grow up, if you will, into a full-on 993 00:44:40.750 --> 00:44:41.110 big app. 994 00:44:41.429 --> 00:44:41.670 Sure. 995 00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:44.659 But also, if you are... if you already have a 996 00:44:44.659 --> 00:44:48.170 Windows app and you're thinking about, you know, it's kind 997 00:44:48.210 --> 00:44:49.349 of bulky and you want a little bit of a 998 00:44:49.409 --> 00:44:51.590 utility so that your users can interact with it in 999 00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:55.309 a smaller, more like lightweight way, it's very easy to 1000 00:44:55.329 --> 00:44:57.869 build that experience. It's very easy to build it as 1001 00:44:57.889 --> 00:45:00.269 an experiment, as a thing you could do in an afternoon, 1002 00:45:00.929 --> 00:45:02.690 put it out there and see if people use it. Again, 1003 00:45:03.849 --> 00:45:06.090 you can have all your ideas in your conference room 1004 00:45:06.110 --> 00:45:08.530 and all your meetings, but you can also just ship 1005 00:45:08.550 --> 00:45:10.130 software and see if people use it and see what 1006 00:45:10.170 --> 00:45:11.650 they say and see what they like. 1007 00:45:11.969 --> 00:45:12.789 Right. Absolutely. 1008 00:45:12.809 --> 00:45:14.599 And that's the whole thing is this, You can get 1009 00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.059 out there and take the feedback and decide, you know, 1010 00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.079 where to even just take it down. 1011 00:45:19.139 --> 00:45:20.579 It's not so precious anymore. 1012 00:45:20.780 --> 00:45:20.980 Yeah. 1013 00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:21.579 Right. Yeah. 1014 00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:23.639 The precious part is something for sure where I'm like, 1015 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.219 I think we need, I have another mobile app that 1016 00:45:26.260 --> 00:45:27.639 I'm like, I just need to stop being so precious 1017 00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:28.610 about it and just ship this stuff. 1018 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:29.110 Right. Yeah. 1019 00:45:29.139 --> 00:45:31.590 Obviously I need to be careful around API keys, you know, 1020 00:45:31.610 --> 00:45:33.489 like make sure that I'm not doing anything inefficient. 1021 00:45:33.510 --> 00:45:34.829 I mean, ship properly. Yeah. 1022 00:45:35.010 --> 00:45:35.909 How do you go quickly? 1023 00:45:36.010 --> 00:45:38.050 But also, you know, you're not, you're not, you could 1024 00:45:38.230 --> 00:45:40.570 do more beta shipping, right? You could just say, Hey, 1025 00:45:40.769 --> 00:45:43.800 this is pro. you know, try it. Product A, product B, 1026 00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:45.579 product C, they all do the same thing. Which one 1027 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:48.239 do you like best? Rather than, you know, we get 1028 00:45:48.300 --> 00:45:49.539 everything ready and then we. 1029 00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:53.179 Ship, you know, this is, this is apps as cattle 1030 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:54.480 versus apps as pets. 1031 00:45:54.500 --> 00:45:55.480 I was just thinking that. 1032 00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:56.659 Yeah. 1033 00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:57.690 That's not pets. 1034 00:45:58.030 --> 00:46:00.570 Yes, for sure. No, it really is though. I'm like, 1035 00:46:00.949 --> 00:46:02.710 I don't, I do give these names, but I don't 1036 00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:03.190 remember them. 1037 00:46:05.670 --> 00:46:06.630 They all start with Trey. 1038 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:08.800 A lot of them start with Trey. A lot of 1039 00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:10.920 them start with Trey. And another big part of this 1040 00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:13.769 is when we think about Windows and what Windows will 1041 00:46:13.789 --> 00:46:16.090 look like in the next 10 years. 1042 00:46:16.210 --> 00:46:17.070 Yeah, no kidding. 1043 00:46:17.389 --> 00:46:20.769 Microsoft is obviously paying attention to what people are doing. 1044 00:46:20.829 --> 00:46:21.190 Yeah. 1045 00:46:21.449 --> 00:46:25.300 And the Trey has been this gutter that they don't 1046 00:46:25.340 --> 00:46:27.699 want to touch and they don't want to really acknowledge, 1047 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:32.280 except for the fact that every single popular Windows application 1048 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:37.449 uses it. Spotify, Teams, Zoom. Yep. like Outlook, they all 1049 00:46:37.610 --> 00:46:40.730 use this tray area and it hasn't really been updated 1050 00:46:40.909 --> 00:46:42.730 since what, Windows XP, Windows 95? 1051 00:46:42.730 --> 00:46:47.869 Basically, yeah. And often the innovation for Windows is outside 1052 00:46:47.889 --> 00:46:51.150 of the tray, right? It's the widgets. It's sort of 1053 00:46:51.170 --> 00:46:53.750 a proof that they don't trust their own stack either. 1054 00:46:53.869 --> 00:46:56.670 But I certainly, you know, I spend time on Windows 1055 00:46:56.710 --> 00:46:59.030 Weekly these days too. So we've been talking about the 1056 00:46:59.070 --> 00:47:02.750 new leadership at Windows, Pavan Davaluri. And he seems to 1057 00:47:02.789 --> 00:47:04.489 be listening to the engineers. 1058 00:47:04.969 --> 00:47:05.070 Yep. 1059 00:47:05.409 --> 00:47:08.010 There's been a lot more work done on stuff that 1060 00:47:08.070 --> 00:47:10.210 needed fixing and so forth. So you have to wonder. 1061 00:47:11.949 --> 00:47:13.739

It's been hard to be positive about Windows for a 1062 00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:17.260 long time. But since Bavan's come on and immediately got 1063 00:47:17.420 --> 00:47:21.619 attacked by the public for don't ram AI down our throats, 1064 00:47:21.699 --> 00:47:26.179 just fix problems. And his answer was, okay. Which is astonishing. 1065 00:47:26.570 --> 00:47:30.130 And I'm paying close attention. That's really interesting. It's going 1066 00:47:30.150 --> 00:47:32.559 to take a year. Or so in the pipeline. But 1067 00:47:32.579 --> 00:47:35.219 I'm also hearing like old engineers are coming back to work. 1068 00:47:35.530 --> 00:47:37.530 Folks have thought they couldn't fix things anymore. 1069 00:47:37.769 --> 00:47:37.889 Yeah. 1070 00:47:37.909 --> 00:47:41.210 I mean, the announcement that just happened recently, they announced 1071 00:47:41.309 --> 00:47:44.150 the new search experience in Windows where you can kind 1072 00:47:44.170 --> 00:47:47.170 of type queries and quickly toggle settings or quickly do things. 1073 00:47:48.070 --> 00:47:50.750 And I'm like, great. I love the ability to have 1074 00:47:50.789 --> 00:47:54.329 these small snackable experiences that are just like pop in, 1075 00:47:54.349 --> 00:47:54.769 pop out. 1076 00:47:54.809 --> 00:47:55.179 You do it. 1077 00:47:55.230 --> 00:47:57.309 You don't like the fact that it's like, no, you 1078 00:47:57.329 --> 00:47:59.000 have to click the start button. Then you have to 1079 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.139 click the settings. Then you have to click and then 1080 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:02.440 you have to click and then you have to click. 1081 00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:04.340 And now you have the thing you want. And you're like, 1082 00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:07.039 what are we doing? Like, do I have to click 1083 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:07.679 10 times? 1084 00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:09.159 Why are you hiding this? Yeah. 1085 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:11.139 I mean, I get they have to have a catalog, 1086 00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:12.969 but can you make it, if this is a thing 1087 00:48:12.989 --> 00:48:15.010 that I do frequently, and I think that's the kind 1088 00:48:15.090 --> 00:48:18.590 of the thing that windows i hope that they know 1089 00:48:18.739 --> 00:48:20.300 and i do believe that they a lot of people 1090 00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:23.800 there know it but windows is kind of our thing 1091 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:25.960 like it's owned by the individual people who use it 1092 00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:27.619 and we customize it we tweak it and we make 1093 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:30.119 it work our way where apple is like no you 1094 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.119 work our way right apple is very much a. 1095 00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:34.840 You are holding it wrong yeah. 1096 00:48:34.219 --> 00:48:36.820 You're holding it wrong and windows is like hold up 1097 00:48:36.860 --> 00:48:39.420 however you want and part of that to me is 1098 00:48:39.460 --> 00:48:42.239 i'm like

let's i i'm curious to hear if anybody 1099 00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:44.480 out there is like really they care about the tray 1100 00:48:44.539 --> 00:48:46.469 or they've been thinking about the tray or like what 1101 00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.139 could happen there i mean right now we have that 1102 00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:51.360 little system control that popped up and i'm like what 1103 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:54.099 if you could have third-party integrations into there yeah what 1104 00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:56.219 if you could have but like not just like teeny 1105 00:48:56.260 --> 00:49:00.050 little widgets but actually like apps like regular apps i 1106 00:49:00.409 --> 00:49:02.230 i don't know i think there's a lot of opportunity there. 1107 00:49:02.050 --> 00:49:05.969 It's interesting yeah i use the bit focus companion a 1108 00:49:06.010 --> 00:49:09.409 fair bit and it's a little you know it's normally 1109 00:49:09.449 --> 00:49:11.650 hidden but you can pop it's got a system tray 1110 00:49:11.670 --> 00:49:13.210 thing you can pop that up and when you and 1111 00:49:13.230 --> 00:49:15.949 there is a button that says launch gui And that's 1112 00:49:16.010 --> 00:49:18.699 when they sort of app part appears but the rest 1113 00:49:18.739 --> 00:49:20.579 of the time it's just in the tray just do 1114 00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:23.099 a couple of notifications and things that's it yeah that's 1115 00:49:23.139 --> 00:49:24.840 cool yeah it's great thinking. 1116 00:49:24.980 --> 00:49:27.000 And you can do some pretty interesting things i know 1117 00:49:27.019 --> 00:49:29.639 they don't have like real apis for it but i 1118 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:33.179 have done basically animations so i made a i made 1119 00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.679 it out that's not yet released called tray atc air 1120 00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:39.440 traffic controller nice and it gets air traffic data And 1121 00:49:39.579 --> 00:49:42.730 as a plane flies over, it will scroll the call 1122 00:49:42.769 --> 00:49:45.090 letters across the little tray icon. 1123 00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:47.710 Nice. So geeky. Yeah. 1124 00:49:47.809 --> 00:49:48.610 Blinky lights. 1125 00:49:49.230 --> 00:49:50.710 If you hear a plane, you can look down at 1126 00:49:50.730 --> 00:49:52.489 your tray and you can see what plane it is. 1127 00:49:52.530 --> 00:49:54.090 What plane was that? And click on it. It'll show 1128 00:49:54.130 --> 00:49:55.889 up on a map and it'll show you a little radar. 1129 00:49:55.929 --> 00:49:57.599 And that's the kind of stuff of I'm generating a 1130 00:49:57.639 --> 00:50:00.400 new icon and replacing the notify icon every single time 1131 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.519 to create that animation. 1132 00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:06.280 And you just create, you're using FlightAware and some. and 1133 00:50:06.340 --> 00:50:09.199 some geolocation stuff to figure out where you are. I 1134 00:50:09.219 --> 00:50:12.019 just showed you a view out my window of the ocean. 1135 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:13.539 Like I want the same thing for boats going by. 1136 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:14.000 Yeah. 1137 00:50:14.550 --> 00:50:16.929 I want a little, a lot of those have AIS. Yep. 1138 00:50:17.190 --> 00:50:19.949 I want a little pop-up to do, to manage my 1139 00:50:20.050 --> 00:50:22.570 smart lights. I want a little pop-up to do my 1140 00:50:22.610 --> 00:50:25.530 smart home stuff. And maybe it's all from a vendor, 1141 00:50:25.590 --> 00:50:27.880 but like, why not get it from a vendor? 1142 00:50:27.949 --> 00:50:30.619 Like, sure. Dude, do it in a home assistant. come 1143 00:50:30.780 --> 00:50:31.420 join the cult. 1144 00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:34.480 Yeah. Before I asked you if you had, you know, 1145 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:37.159 to create one tray thing when, when you pop up, 1146 00:50:37.260 --> 00:50:39.940 you could have, you know, your applications plugged in there 1147 00:50:39.980 --> 00:50:43.719 and select them. But are you talking about the, you know, 1148 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:47.400 the show hidden icons up arrow, and then you see 1149 00:50:47.489 --> 00:50:50.530 all the, you know, the services and things like that. 1150 00:50:50.909 --> 00:50:52.909 Is that where you're talking about? Are you talking about 1151 00:50:52.949 --> 00:50:55.530 the tray icons? Like I have for volume and for 1152 00:50:55.630 --> 00:50:59.340 network and, microphone in use yeah so like where are 1153 00:50:59.380 --> 00:51:00.159 you talking on the. 1154 00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.440 Tray yeah so those ones are like the system ones 1155 00:51:02.780 --> 00:51:05.630 and we're you know developers are not allowed i'll say 1156 00:51:05.650 --> 00:51:07.789 this we're not supposed to touch but it'd be nice 1157 00:51:07.829 --> 00:51:09.789 wouldn't it yeah wouldn't it be nice yeah but yeah 1158 00:51:09.889 --> 00:51:13.110 in that little overflow menu that area is like where 1159 00:51:13.190 --> 00:51:15.710 all those little icons are that's where the notify icons 1160 00:51:15.809 --> 00:51:18.340 live yeah all right is in that in that tray. 1161 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:20.340 So the problem i have with this is i don't 1162 00:51:20.909 --> 00:51:23.760 I haven't memorized what the icons look like for all 1163 00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:26.420 these 16 different apps that are running in here. 1164 00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:27.159 I'm at 20. 1165 00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:30.119 And so I know I can recognize Synergy. I can 1166 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:33.380 recognize OneDrive and a couple of others, but I have 1167 00:51:33.739 --> 00:51:36.260 to like hover over all of them to find what 1168 00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:38.880 I want. So what I'm asking you is if you 1169 00:51:38.900 --> 00:51:41.699 could just have a tray launcher, that is one icon. 1170 00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:45.059 And then from there, you branch up and you find 1171 00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:47.769 all of the apps that are installed and you list 1172

00:51:47.789 --> 00:51:50.369 those in a menu. Would that not be smart? You 1173 00:51:50.809 --> 00:51:53.230 indicated somehow that you're already doing that. 1174 00:51:53.650 --> 00:51:57.269 Oh, I tried. I tried. But there are no APIs 1175 00:51:57.289 --> 00:51:58.230 to do that. 1176 00:51:58.489 --> 00:51:58.769 Really? 1177 00:51:59.690 --> 00:51:59.929 Yeah. 1178 00:52:00.409 --> 00:52:02.960 I think part of it is the history. And I 1179 00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:05.960 think this is kind of where Microsoft is just loaded 1180 00:52:06.019 --> 00:52:11.559 up with scars of people doing bad things and people who, developers, ISVs, 1181 00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:14.489 who just, you know, put things in there, move things around. 1182 00:52:14.590 --> 00:52:16.980 And now it's very locked down. And so there is 1183 00:52:17.019 --> 00:52:17.920 that like overflow. 1184 00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:20.980 So they all have context menus, but you're saying they 1185 00:52:21.019 --> 00:52:23.179 have to be compiled. Those menus have to be compiled 1186 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:26.559 into the, into the icon things, the apps. 1187 00:52:26.739 --> 00:52:26.860 Yep. 1188 00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:27.340 Yeah. 1189 00:52:27.409 --> 00:52:30.030 They're tied in. And obviously I'm not going to say 1190 00:52:30.050 --> 00:52:33.010 you can't do it. Like there might be APIs that 1191 00:52:33.030 --> 00:52:35.250 allow you to do it, but, From my point of view, 1192 00:52:35.449 --> 00:52:39.849 there are not documented APIs that Opus 5.5 knows about 1193 00:52:40.610 --> 00:52:43.820 as a way to basically manage all of the notify icons. 1194 00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:47.070 And you cannot move them in and out of that menu. 1195 00:52:48.030 --> 00:52:50.159 You can't show and hide them. You can't do the 1196 00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:53.000 things that kind of a train monitor would want to do. 1197 00:52:53.079 --> 00:52:54.960 I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. So 1198 00:52:55.159 --> 00:52:59.679 let's say I have OpenVPN, right? I highlight over it 1199 00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:03.869 says OpenVPN. I right click. Now I get a pop-up menu. connect, 1200 00:53:03.989 --> 00:53:08.030 view log, edit, config, import file, whatever. I'm saying that 1201 00:53:08.070 --> 00:53:10.449 would really be great if that could be dynamic. And 1202 00:53:10.489 --> 00:53:12.679 if we could get that data from somewhere and show 1203 00:53:12.739 --> 00:53:15.519 it on demand, because then you would have one icon 1204 00:53:15.539 --> 00:53:18.530 with a context menu that had all the apps in it. 1205 00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:21.219 But you're saying there isn't a way to do that. 1206 00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:24.530 From what I have researched, there's not a blessed path. 1207 00:53:24.590 --> 00:53:27.389 There's not a happy path for being able to enumerate 1208 00:53:27.510 --> 00:53:30.329 over all the try icons and get information about them 1209 00:53:30.510 --> 00:53:34.480 and manipulate them. It's basically like you have your app 1210 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:38.199 tray and that's only yours. And if you want to 1211 00:53:38.219 --> 00:53:41.280 go look at other applications that maybe have context menus 1212 00:53:41.300 --> 00:53:44.940 and information and tools capabilities, that's not great. 1213 00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:49.639 I don't think that's what I'm asking. I think maybe 1214 00:53:49.659 --> 00:53:51.059 we're not talking about the same thing. 1215 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:53.659 I mean, are you thinking about an application that manages 1216 00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:55.480 the tray for your VPN app and for your. 1217 00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:59.539 No, that's not what I'm thinking. I'm thinking you have 1218 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:04.460 an overall... application that goes in the tray and it's 1219 00:54:04.500 --> 00:54:06.900 just one and it's, you know, Joe Finney stuff. Right. 1220 00:54:07.579 --> 00:54:10.309 And when I click on that, right, click on that icon, 1221 00:54:10.349 --> 00:54:12.510 a context menu would come up and all of the 1222 00:54:12.630 --> 00:54:15.650 apps that you have written show up as links on that, 1223 00:54:16.730 --> 00:54:19.550 on that context menu, the battleship gray context menu. 1224 00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:20.019 Yeah. 1225 00:54:20.059 --> 00:54:22.940 You can, so you don't litter the tray area with 1226 00:54:23.940 --> 00:54:26.079 lots of icons. If you're building an app a day, 1227 00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:28.159 that's going to, be very confusing very quickly. 1228 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:28.539 Right. 1229 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.119 Yeah, I could build one to manage to basically just 1230 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:35.699 launch them, but as far as owning and manipulating their controls, 1231 00:54:35.860 --> 00:54:37.670 not at all. So it would be a little mini launcher. 1232 00:54:37.690 --> 00:54:40.349 But at some point you're getting, you're recreating the start 1233 00:54:40.369 --> 00:54:41.630 menu too, right? 1234 00:54:41.889 --> 00:54:42.210 Right, right. 1235 00:54:42.449 --> 00:54:44.610 The real debate here, Joe, is should it be in 1236 00:54:44.650 --> 00:54:46.510 the tray or should it just be an app and 1237 00:54:46.570 --> 00:54:47.309 show up on the taskbar? 1238 00:54:47.429 --> 00:54:48.710 Right, I mean, if you're going to do a tray 1239 00:54:48.730 --> 00:54:52.599 app a day, that could overwhelm me, certainly. 1240 00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:58.130 Yeah, the experiment isn't that there's 31 try apps and 1241 00:54:58.190 --> 00:55:02.250 that every user will use 31 try apps simultaneously. The 1242 00:55:02.289 --> 00:55:06.260 idea is that maybe two or three, but what are 1243 00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:07.699 those two or three? I think this is kind of 1244 00:55:07.719 --> 00:55:10.820 the back to the, uh, the discussion around discovery and 1245 00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:14.800 understanding what is valuable and what is not valuable. I 1246 00:55:14.860 --> 00:55:17.880 will not be using 30 of these try apps simultaneously. 1247 00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:21.460 That's for sure. But I, there's probably five or six 1248 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.719 that I'll use at work and maybe five or six 1249 00:55:23.739 --> 00:55:25.869 that I use at home. And it's different. It's a 1250 00:55:25.869 --> 00:55:28.769 different cross-section of apps. And I don't always know which 1251 00:55:28.869 --> 00:55:30.829 ones those are. So I think that's kind of the 1252 00:55:30.869 --> 00:55:33.739 thing of, it's very easy. And it's also a thing of, 1253 00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:36.079 you know, this is better reach for my phone. So 1254 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.139 let's see if that experience works. And if it doesn't work, 1255 00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:43.380 then I don't, you know, whatever, experiment over. Maybe it 1256 00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:44.300 works for somebody else. 1257 00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:44.820 Right. 1258 00:55:44.989 --> 00:55:45.179 Yeah. 1259 00:55:45.550 --> 00:55:46.809 That's what the nature of experiments. 1260 00:55:46.969 --> 00:55:47.110 Yeah. 1261 00:55:47.170 --> 00:55:50.550 Well, Joe, this has been very enlightening. And I always 1262 00:55:50.610 --> 00:55:52.829 love talking about how AI has changed the way we 1263 00:55:52.869 --> 00:55:55.659 think and the way we develop. And it's, Clearly, you 1264 00:55:55.699 --> 00:55:58.940 found a little niche that you're using it for, and 1265 00:55:58.960 --> 00:55:59.719 I think it's great. 1266 00:55:59.860 --> 00:56:00.489 Yeah, it's a blast. 1267 00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:00.889 All right. 1268 00:56:00.909 --> 00:56:03.489 Well, thanks for talking to us, and we will talk 1269 00:56:03.530 --> 00:56:05.889 to you next time on. NET Rocks!. NET Rocks! 1270 00:56:27.489 --> 00:56:30.190 NET Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and 1271 00:56:30.250 --> 00:56:34.969 produced by Plop Studios, a full-service audio, video, and post-production 1272 00:56:35.010 --> 00:56:39.010 facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and, of course, 1273 00:56:39.070 --> 00:56:47.210 in the cloud, online at pwop.com. Visit our website at dotnetrocks.com 1274 00:56:47.650 --> 00:56:52.340 for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to 1275 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:55.750 the full archives going back to show number one, recorded 1276 00:56:55.769 --> 00:56:59.659 in September 2002. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 1277 00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:02.639 They keep us in business. Now go write some code. 1278 00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:03.980 See you next time.