บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Natural Causes Guide To Staying Warm This Winter

Home Depot guy. The Costco one is just like a torso that emerges from the ground. It's very threatening. I prefer the 10 foot guy. 00:02:43 Speaker 2: Full body looming guy. 00:02:44 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:02:45 Speaker 2: Because he's kind of fun. Yeah, you can practice your anatomy shit. 00:02:49 Speaker 3: Like I've got a neighbor who leaves one up year round and dresses it in different seasonal outfits. 00:02:52 Speaker 2: Okay, perfect. 00:02:53 Speaker 3: Although last I checked, it was still dressed for 4th of July. I hope they're okay. 00:02:59 Speaker 2: Maybe he's making some commentary on American politics. This is the 4th of July skeleton. So I want to talk about staying warm in the winter. Obviously, it's not super fucking complicated, right? I have plenty of friends who just lay a car hot products until they reach their desired temperature. And that's a fine approach. That's what half of Alaska is doing at any given time. But I think there is a more elegant way to do it. But before we do that, I want to talk about talking about stuff. Because like all the outdoor media does is fucking talk about things to buy. 00:03:28 Speaker 3: Purchasing, right. There's a link to buy it. Yes. 00:03:31 Speaker 2: Well, that is the fucking problem, right? The link to buy it is a problem. That's generally something that's called an affiliate link. 00:03:37 Speaker 1: Right. 00:03:37 Speaker 3: It's not necessarily information so much as affiliate marketing. 00:03:41 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's advertising. Yeah. Like there is no reason in an environment of like, they call it affiliate communication or AFCOM. 00:03:50 Speaker 1: Oh. 00:03:51 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been in this world. You can't write a negative review if you're doing AFCOM because your writing is not directly funded, right? Generally, at least there are some outlets will probably pay you a percentage of affiliate revenue. The way I've done it, I was paid a flat fee. Everything had to have an affiliate link. And that affiliate link pays a percentage back to the outlet if someone clicks through and buys it. 00:04:14 Speaker 3: So even if you wanted to write a negative review, there's just no incentive for that. 00:04:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, it wouldn't make financial sense. It's why everything is now a top 10 list instead of just like, hey, this is an interesting thing. And it's why it's harder and harder for small little cottage brands to succeed in getting media coverage. I think some people have realized that it's so insincere that they're pulling back from it a little bit now, but it really fucked the outdoor industry for a long time. It certainly fucked the ability to write thoughtfully about equipment in the outdoor industry for a long time. I might do a whole show on this, but for now, I guess I want everyone to know But I will remain poor if you buy every single thing I talk about. It will not make any difference. The price that you pay for that is the adverts that you get periodically in these podcasts. I don't know what those adverts are for. It's the weird shit that you've been browsing that brings them onto your VPN. You've got your VPN sets like Finland. You'll get some interesting ones, I'm sure. I think Finland is one of the countries where there aren't ads. Some people just don't get ads. Like where there aren't ads appended to certain podcasts. That also does not have a direct impact per se on like my opinions, right? Like I say, I don't know what those ads are. I've never done an ad read. 00:05:28 Speaker 3: This is not sponsored content. 00:05:30 Speaker 2: Yes, this is not. No one cares enough about me to give me their money. And I think I've burned every potential bridge that I have already. So I don't think that's going to happen. 00:05:38 Speaker 3: Gore-Tex isn't beating down the door. 00:05:40 Speaker 1: They are not. 00:05:41 Speaker 2: You know, big, big DWR. Fuck, I'm going to do a whole episode on Gore-Tex because I cannot... sufficiently contained in my thoughts into 30 minutes. 00:05:50 Speaker 3: Oh, I had no idea. I was poking a bear there. 00:05:52 Speaker 2: Oh, you're poking a huge bear. There was a thing called PFAS, a forever chemical that was in durable water repellent layers for a long time. 00:06:02 Speaker 3: Are you saying raincoats are going to give me cancer? 00:06:05 Speaker 2: I'm saying raincoats are putting plastic in the fish. 00:06:07 Speaker 1: Oh, fuck. 00:06:08 Speaker 2: There's actually a study where they looked at two lakes and one lake had much higher outdoor recreation than the other. And the outdoor recreation lake the fish in the lake had PFAS, which is like a microplastic. The thesis there is that it was coming from people's waterproof clothing. Oh, that sucks. Yeah. Fuel Raven, which I'm pronouncing incorrectly, started taking PFAS out of their shit in 2009 because they work with like a research chemist, I guess, and research chemist informed them that like, hey, this is going to be an issue. 00:06:38 Speaker 3: I mean, based on the name, they're probably manufactured in a country with laws. 00:06:43 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, they're extremely Scandinavian in their approach to things. Like, it bugs the hell out of me that the rest of the outdoor industry was going full steam ahead until legislators took action against PFAS, which is what's happening now. That's why it's been removed. This is another episode. I've already done some interviews with some chemists about this shit. But I want to talk about outdoor winter clothing because it's one of the coolest times. I really love to be outdoor in the shorter seasons. Like, last week I was in, I'm not going to say where I was because I just don't want to run into people at the fucking middle of nowhere gas station. I was in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, but not in the park. And I was sleeping in the mountains for a week. And it went 20 degrees Fahrenheit or so, which is like minus six Celsius. It'll get up to the single digit

Celsius in the daytime. 00:07:31 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:07:31 Speaker 2: Which is like the worst temperature. The worst temperature to be outdoors is rain and hovering above and below freezing. 00:07:38 Speaker 3: I'll be inside. I don't need to find out what we're going to wear for that because I'll be inside. 00:07:43 Speaker 2: But so was everyone else. So I saw like a ton of deer. I saw grouse. I saw 10 moose, including one moose that was approaching me far closer and faster than it is ideal for a moose to approach you. 00:07:54 Speaker 3: I don't ever want to see a moose headed in my general direction. 00:07:57 Speaker 2: Oh, it's fucking something. It's like a minivan with these massive paddles. 00:08:03 Speaker 3: But on spindly little legs. 00:08:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, on its little legs. Moose skip leg day, but God, they're big. It's also like you don't have to do the trailhead parking fight. You don't have to fight for permits. It's less likely that someone will be camping next to you playing techno till two in the morning. These are things that I prefer to avoid. But also like you can die in the cold in this country going outside. That is definitely on the table. So I do think it's important to dress correctly. So we're talking about clothes here today. And I guess just like to lay some ground rules, I don't like spending lots of money on outdoor gear. I would rather fix something than buy something new. Like I have a pair of hiking pants with like conceivably the entire arse has been replaced. I have a habit, I guess, of using my bum as a point of contact, particularly when I'm going uphill very steeply or down very steeply. 00:09:01 Speaker 3: Toddler style. You scoot on the butt scoot. Yeah. 00:09:04 Speaker 2: Not so much to scoot. I'm talking about moving in vertical terrain and using your ass. No, yes, I don't. I don't just scoot along. 00:09:14 Speaker 3: If the terrain is very rough, go toddler mode. Just get down there and scoot on your butt. 00:09:20 Speaker 2: I tell you what, though, you don't want to be moving at any speed doing that because if you encounter a stick which is poked to the opposite direction, it is, having been there, unpleasant. I think I actually have some audio of that happening to me in a podcast. 00:09:33 Speaker 3: So is the ass patch, is it, are we talking like Like old-timey clown colorful patches or like darning? What are we talking? 00:09:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I began with darning, right? And then when your issue is you've got nothing to sew the hole to because it's next to another hole. Yeah, I've moved on to colorful patches now. There's a company called No Sew who make really nice patches. Like I've got some that look like different trout. 00:09:54 Speaker 3: Oh, that's fun. 00:09:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I kind of like that my stuff, I use it hard enough to break it. and then I fix it and keep using it but. 00:10:01 Speaker 3: Like lean into the sort of visible mending aspect of it and make it

make it playful. 00:10:05 Speaker 2: That's cute yeah like there was a time when I just duct taped all my stuff right but this is you know slightly like I'm moving up in the world got a podcast of. 00:10:13 Speaker 3: My own you can get trout patches now yeah I can get. 00:10:15 Speaker 2: Trout patches they have grateful dead ones as well if that's your thing you can get smoky the bear As I've said before in this podcast, ACAB includes Smokey the Bear. 00:10:23 Speaker 3: That one hurts. 00:10:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it does. Also, I've said this before. It's not only you who can prevent forest fires. It's rapacious capitalism that can prevent forest fires. And I don't think the bear should be lying to you about that. Right. 00:10:35 Speaker 3: This is not an individual responsibility issue. 00:10:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And I would like the bear to change his stance. What else? I like natural fibers. I don't like to buy stuff that is obviously horrific for the planet or people. And I would rather pay a little more for that if I'm able to. I don't like things that weigh a lot because I like to move a lot. I'm also a large man. And that means that stuff for me is different than it might be for stuff for you if you're listening, right? If you're smaller, you know, it might be harder to get stuff, but maybe you can get kid stuff and it's cheaper. If you're bigger than me, it might be harder to get, especially technical pieces can be harder for like larger folks. So like, I will try when I'm going in to suggest a little something for everyone. But yeah, those are things that people should know because we haven't talked about like stuff on this show before. So I want to establish some like ground rules. All right. So let's start with it. Let's start with the middle and work our way out. So the things touching your skin to begin with. The things touching your skin when you are hiking around outside in the cold have the job of moving moisture away from your skin. Cold is bad. Wet and cold is dangerous. If you're wet, right, and you're cold, you're in danger because water will conduct that heat away from your body more rapidly than air. So these are not to keep you warm. They're not to insulate you. They are to get sweat away from your body so your other layers can insulate you. 00:11:57 Speaker 3: Like the only time you don't want to be wearing cotton underwear. 00:12:00 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:12:00 Speaker 2: I mean, anytime you don't want to be wearing cotton underwear, like I'm not, I'm not ever wearing cotton underwear, but if you are good for you, but yeah, cotton, this is saying that cotton kills because it gets wet and stays wet and keeps you wet and you get cold. That's not necessarily like, I'm always got some cotton. Like I think a cotton bandana is a really nice thing because sometimes it's really nice to have something that gets wet and stays wet and you put it on your neck and it keeps you cold if you're, if you're in the heat. 00:12:23 Speaker 1: Right. 00:12:24 Speaker 2: But for the most part, you don't want to be wearing cotton clothing. Just to recap where the heat comes from, because this seems to be a thing that people miss. The heat comes from you. The jacket, jumper, shirt is not warm. It is not exothermic. You are making the heat. It traps the heat near your body. So we don't want to create a little cold microclimate near our body. There are things called vapor barriers, which you can wear when it's very cold. But I think that they're like If you're learning about going outside from a podcast, it's probably not the place to be talking about. 00:12:54 Speaker 3: You're probably not going to Antarctica. If you're going to Antarctica, consult an expert. 00:12:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're going into like double digit negative temperatures and yeah, vapor barriers, cool. And they're great for some stuff, but let's walk before we run. We have a continuum of choices here. I think often this is presented as a binary, but like many things, it's better to see it as a spectrum. One end would be wool and the other end would be synthetics. 00:13:19 Speaker 3: I have a feeling we're going to be talking a lot about wool. 00:13:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always talking a lot about wool, Molly. Wool is important to me. 00:13:25 Speaker 3: I know you love a sheep. 00:13:27 Speaker 2: I do love a sheep in a healthy way. There are things that I like about wool. It doesn't smell as much. Just being honest here. Like, I relatively often go a week without showering if I'm out in the backcountry, right? Like, not out of choice at home. I'm not like that kind of podcast guy. But I'm just going to smell. It's just going to be how it is. 00:13:48 Speaker 3: But that's your right outside. 00:13:50 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's part of why we're out there. We want to connect with the version of ourselves that isn't concerned with how we smell. And, like, certainly if you're in, like, big grizzly bear country, I'm not taking my apricot hair wash out. 00:14:04 Speaker 3: Right, because it smells like a delicious treat for them. 00:14:07 Speaker 2: Exactly. And then my head becomes a delicious... I just camped for a week in grizzly country, didn't get to see any. But yeah, I didn't use any food scented body products. Wool can also absorb more moisture before it feels wet, which is nice. But it also kind of holds on to moisture a bit better, which is an issue if you have some dry heat to dry off. So like if you're hot tank camping or if you're going home at night, right? But it is also naturally fire retardant, which is also nice for hot tents. 00:14:33 Speaker 3: I didn't know that. Yep. 00:14:34 Speaker 2: It doesn't catch. It also doesn't drip and doesn't melt. Right. 00:14:39 Speaker 3: If you're wearing synthetic and you get caught on fire, it melts into the burn. And that's a bad news. 00:14:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a bad day for you. I have this concern about catching fire, just

like, I guess, places I go. Things explode and I'm always worried about that. So I'm often wearing wool for that reason. 00:14:57 Speaker 3: In case of an explosion. 00:14:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, right. 00:14:59 Speaker 3: A normal concern that we all have. 00:15:01 Speaker 2: I don't know. Gas is getting so expensive. Maybe you're not likely to explode anytime soon. Merino wool specifically is very nice and warm for the weight. Merino wool tends to be less itchy because it is softer. There are also other wools which are less itchy, like alpaca wool is very nice for that. 00:15:18 Speaker 1: Oh. 00:15:19 Speaker 2: I've used a lot of alpaca wool stuff and that's really nice. What wool doesn't do well is it doesn't hold its shape. People will know this because if you have a wool sweater and you just hang it on the line, now you have a wool dress. 00:15:29 Speaker 3: Oh, you have to block it after you wash it. You're going to lay it flat. 00:15:32 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:15:33 Speaker 3: You're responsible for the shape. 00:15:35 Speaker 2: Exactly. Which is fine if you want to turn a jumper into a dress, I guess. But that can be an issue a lot in specifically like your bottom half base layers. Like if you're wearing wool underwear and it gets wet from your sweat or from the wet and then it starts hanging off you. 00:15:49 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:15:51 Speaker 2: It's going to result in like a chap ass situation, which is unfortunate. So I tend not to wear wool for that. Synthetics are better wicking. They can be lighter. They hold their shape a little better. They smell more. And you can go anywhere along this line, right? So like if I'm out and about and I'm moving a lot, I tend to do a synthetic base layer because I'm a sweaty, sweaty person and I will wear out a wool base layer faster than it can dry out. So generally I like until it's like below freezing, I'll wear a sun hoodie, which is just like a synthetic hoodie that has some kind of sun protection factor in it, has a hood. A, because reflections of snow, you can burn like shit. You can sunburn the crap out of yourself. 00:16:32 Speaker 3: People think a sunburn is just for the summertime, but the sun can burn you around. It's always there. 00:16:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, the sun is famously part of our lives every day, for now at least, until it explodes. 00:16:43 Speaker 3: But people think that the sunburn is just for the summertime. It's not. It's not about the temperature. 00:16:47 Speaker 2: No, it's not. A cold, clear day, you can nuke your face from sunburn. I've done it. You can even get like snow blindness, right, from the reflection of the snow. And I also like to not buy lots of stuff. So if I can wear a sun hoodie in the summer and then wear it as a base layer in the winter, it's a huge win. You can also get fishnet base layers and they are very warm and obviously they breathe well because there's giant holes in them. 00:17:10 Speaker 3: Did you say fishnet? Fishnet bass layers. 00:17:13 Speaker 1: Yes. 00:17:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It looks like what you're thinking. 00:17:15 Speaker 3: Hike all day, go to the club all night. 00:17:19 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yes, it is very funny to get a glow stick and put it on a piece of paracord, wave it around your tent and make a little video of yourself. Wait, I've never heard of this. 00:17:28 Speaker 3: I've never heard of this. 00:17:29 Speaker 1: Really? 00:17:30 Speaker 2: They're very warm. 00:17:31 Speaker 3: Like fishnet long johns. 00:17:33 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, and shirts, too. 00:17:35 Speaker 1: What? 00:17:35 Speaker 2: Let me find a video. 00:17:36 Speaker 3: I didn't realize we were wearing, like, mesh camping. 00:17:40 Speaker 2: I mean, they're very European. I think they're from a company called Brynja of Norway. So, you know, you know what you're getting into. 00:17:47 Speaker 3: Okay, wow. But they have sort of a reinforced crotch zone and also the knees. Why are the knees and the crotch reinforced? 00:17:57 Speaker 2: The knees are reinforced because you're going to be kneeling on them. And so you don't want to put a hole in your fishnets. At the crutch, you're going to be sitting on. 00:18:05 Speaker 3: These Scandinavian people wearing their mesh long johns in their tent look so happy. 00:18:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they're very warm. That mesh traps air as long as you have a layer over it. 00:18:14 Speaker 3: That makes sense. 00:18:17 Speaker 2: I have trouble with these unless it's cold as fuck because like it can be below freezing. And if I'm going uphill with a backpack, I'm still just wearing my base layer. And I don't want to be nipples out in that scenario. 00:18:32 Speaker 3: Okay, I don't know. Maybe I'm not using like the right Google search terms because I'm getting like 50-50 Scandinavian outdoor gear and also just like fetish outfits. 00:18:44 Speaker 2: Okay, this could be for the same manufacturer. I dropped a link in the chat. 00:18:49 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:18:52 Speaker 2: For those listening at home, this is a Norwegian ass word. B-R-Y-N-J-E. 00:18:57 Speaker 3: Thermo mesh with large holes. 00:19:00 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:19:00 Speaker 3: I mean, this bodysuit looks cozy. 00:19:03 Speaker 2: It's cozy. It's hard to see. I guess most of the pictures people aren't wearing them for, I guess, obvious reasons. 00:19:09 Speaker 3: Interestingly, so the men's shirts are mesh all the way. It's 100% mesh. The women's shirts, like the bra area is solid. Like they're trying to make it so that it can't be interpreted as sexy. 00:19:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. This is a modesty mesh. This is a strictly utilitarian piece. that is definitely what they're going for like uh maybe that's why they have the front of the crotch also solid yeah that's interesting and then i can see why the shoulders like that if you're going to go through the shoulders but yeah they do uh yeah if i'm looking at the men's one now and i'm seeing where they have the solid piece and i think

that is more of a modesty concern I don't know when you would be hiking in just long johns. That's not a scenario I foresee, but I'm not Norwegian. 00:19:51 Speaker 3: They're moralizing about their long johns. They don't want anyone to think that this is too sexy. 00:19:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is serious stuff, not sexy stuff. I like to wear wool if I'm around town, if I'm doing more like stop-start stuff and not just like moving a lot, like at high intensity. If it is cold and wet, I like the wool because it doesn't quite absorb so much as long as I have a chance to dry it. I have a top that's like entirely alpaca wool that I really like. Yeah, I wear that guy a lot. The other thing about wool is if you're going down to your base layer, it tears more than synthetics do. Then it can be a little harder to patch. Although I did just get some merino wool patches. So we'll be seeing about that. I've already mentioned Swampass. The other thing I would say is that if you are picking, Like next to skin and underwear for a hiking trip, like I will lose several pounds over a week. And so you want something that's like stretchy. If it's not stretchy enough, it'll either fit you at one end or other end, but not both. So like, yeah, something with a good amount of elastane. For socks and long johns, I pretty much always wear wool. It doesn't get funky, right? Wool is oleophilic, and I think it repels your body's oil, from what I understand. 00:21:05 Speaker 3: Because it has its own sheep oil? 00:21:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's also to do with the actual structure of the fibres. Maybe it's oleophobic in that case. It doesn't take on a funk. It has a natural antimicrobial nature, which is really important, especially for your feet. That's an issue people can have with their feet when they're sweating a lot. i like to use wool like long johns as well because they're going to get wet right like because you're putting pressure against that when you sit on it or kneel on it so that like pushes water through unless it's like a completely waterproof material like a rubberized trouser which again you could also wear at the nightclub i just. 00:21:44 Speaker 3: Feel like you're talking about fetish outfits. 00:21:46 Speaker 2: I don't really realize the fetish overlap wait till you see my uh The pants I like to wear do have a giant vent on the side. 00:21:56 Speaker 3: Just putting on your mesh bodysuit and your rubberized trousers. 00:22:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then opening up my thigh vent. 00:22:04 Speaker 3: Zip up the gimp suit. 00:22:08 Speaker 2: I've realized the gloves I like are also giving gimp suit. This is funny. My layering is based on what Mark Twight used to call an action suit, but maybe we can have action parentheses gimp. Put our own spin on it. I really like hybrid wool fabrics for a lot of things. There's someone called New Yarn, which has some of the benefits of wool, but it's not fully wool. That stuff's pretty good. I think mostly for the synthetic stuff, you could do whatever you want brand-wise. I have one from a company called Sitka. That's because it has some kind of mechanical anti-insect properties. Hey, everyone, Editing James here. When I spoke about the Sitka Equinox Guard, some people aren't going to want to buy from a hunting company. Some people might not prefer the aesthetic. They do make things that aren't camo. But if you prefer, Royal Robins also has this stuff. And they just have some different products. They have some really nice shirts and stuff. So if you're looking for something with a mechanical mosquito protection, you should also check out Royal Robins. I'll include links to both. Like generally when you buy a product and it has anti-insect stuff embedded in it, that will last for maybe like a few months and a few washes, right? 00:23:10 Speaker 3: When it comes like impregnated with DEET or something? 00:23:13 Speaker 2: No, it's not DEET. It's permethrin. Okay. 00:23:15 Speaker 3: So what is this mechanical anti-insect? 00:23:17 Speaker 2: I think it's to do with the way the fabric is woven. So it stops mosquitoes. 00:23:20 Speaker 3: They can't get their proboscis through. 00:23:23 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. They can't get the snoot in. 00:23:25 Speaker 3: It's like anti-mosquito chain mail. 00:23:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not so heavy. I don't love spraying permethrin on my stuff because it's a neurotoxin to cats. There are cats that live outside of my neighborhood. It's only a neurotoxin to cats when it's wet. Oh, that's good to know. So you could take it outside and spray it on the line, let it dry and bring it in, and you'd be perfectly safe even if you had a cat in your house. But my concern is for the cats that live outside of people's houses and come into my garden sometimes. So... I kind of like the idea of something that's not chemical, so I can wear that one all year round. I do not like tics, so even in the winter, it can be pretty cold and you don't want to get a tic on. Other brands, I can less exclusively wear darn tough socks. The company that makes the alpaca shirt I mentioned is called Arms of Andes. For long johns, there's a company called Kuyu who make a really nice set. I think the way to go is to have them capricut. So again, very kind of nightclub suitable. 00:24:20 Speaker 3: Jaunty. 00:24:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you're wearing long socks, right? So you don't need to double up. Or you may be wearing boots. And these ones have zips all the way down the side. So you can actually take them on and off without taking your trousers off. It's quite a performance when you see it in person. 00:24:34 Speaker 3: I'm trying to picture how you would even do it. So you're reaching down the front of your pants to get to the zipper? 00:24:40 Speaker 2: Or up the side. Yeah. You go up the side. Or if you have a side vent, you go in the vent. 00:24:45 Speaker 3: I guess I just don't wear a lot of vented pants. 00:24:48 Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:24:48 Speaker 2: Well, more's the pity. Like now I want to open up that door for you, Molly, if that's something you'd like to try. Can you have the worst fucking politics and general stances? So like I would really rather not. 00:24:59 Speaker 3: But great long johns. That's tough. 00:25:01 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:25:02 Speaker 2: I think I got them years ago. Maybe I just wasn't aware of it or maybe they hadn't started spouting their shit. I know I wouldn't pay for them. I wouldn't give them money. 00:25:11 Speaker 3: That's good to know. 00:25:12 Speaker 2: So if you have a good alternative listening, I would love to know. Otherwise, I would buy them used. Talking of buying stuff, here are some adverts. All right, we're back. Listeners who are used to the usual length of the show will be. You're lucky you get to get one just on your drive home as well. The next thing, Molly, is called your active insulation layer. 00:25:47 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:25:47 Speaker 2: It's a thing for keeping you warm when you're moving. It's not necessarily like you have to go like one, two, three, but you have all these different layers and you can combine them in a way that is best for you. So the deal with active insulation is for when it's too cold to be moving about in your base layer, but you want something that is not so warm that you sweat, get wet, and then get cold, or sweat a lot, get wet, and then get cold. So it wants to be warm, but breathable. For this, when I'm hiking, there's a new type of loose-knit, high-loft fleece. Prima Loft makes one called Evolve. Polartec has one called Alpha Direct. North Face has one called Future Fleece. You look like a teddy bear. 00:26:27 Speaker 3: I didn't know they were still making new kinds of fleece. 00:26:29 Speaker 2: Oh, this shit is like, yeah, it's taken the fleece market by storm. 00:26:34 Speaker 3: Oh, I want to go somewhere where I can touch all the different fleeces. I'm very tactile. 00:26:38 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm a person who, like, I don't like certain textures. It bothers me. 00:26:42 Speaker 3: Some fleeces feel very bad. 00:26:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Certain scratchy, itchy things are bothersome to me, and I'm just not going to wear them. This shit is so soft. 00:26:51 Speaker 1: It is. 00:26:52 Speaker 2: Incredibly fluffy. It is incredibly breathable and incredibly warm. And it does not block the wind at all. Oh. But that's why you have your wind layer, which we're going to talk about next. 00:27:05 Speaker 4: Oh. 00:27:06 Speaker 2: And it is not durable. 00:27:07 Speaker 3: You're really not selling this material. It doesn't block the wind. Not durable. 00:27:12 Speaker 2: It is so light and so warm and so breathable. that I am prepared to compromise on other things. I know people are concerned about microplastics. I am leaving fucking macroplastics in the outdoors when I use that bad boy. If I use it on its own and I'm going through a bramble thicket, it's pulling off threads. 00:27:31 Speaker 4:

Oh, no. 00:27:32 Speaker 2: But I have a Primaloft Evolve one that I found in a used gear store. It's very hydrophobic, so it just doesn't take on water at all. It's something that packs down to the size of a tennis ball, and it keeps me extremely warm. I also really like taking it on flights, actually, because it's small, and it's soft, and it has a hood, and I can cover myself with it and go to sleep. The first company to popularize these was a company called Senchi, who make them in wild colors. And for a while there, when they were the only ones making them, you would see people wearing a full Senchi outfit, and it would look like you'd encountered a Teletubby. 00:28:07 Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, I found the one you're talking about, this Primalock Evolve. And it does, it has sort of like a nubby texture. 00:28:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's like a super fluffy fleece. 00:28:19 Speaker 3: That's like one of my dog's favorite textures, that sort of like nubby fleece. 00:28:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nice texture. I've made like sleeping bag liners out of it because sometimes I don't like this shiny texture. feeling of the inside of some sleeping bags or the inside of some sleeping pads so sometimes i'll use that use it for that yeah this stuff is fucking rad it was actually developed with your taxpayer dollars by the united states military yeah thank you uncle sam they wanted people to be warm without the bulk so they could wear it underneath like their plate carrier without having to like if you could press down it's not warm right so this stuff is really really good for. 00:28:55 Speaker 3: That that makes sense i guess the military is probably cutting edge on a lot of outdoor gear oh yeah. 00:29:01 Speaker 2: Like a lot of the fabrics and shit you will see were developed to an extent, but either in partnership with or by the United States military, right? Or the government in some capacity. There's a lot of exchange for the outdoor industry and the military. This is something that I have written about for Backpacker before. Also find here is like a grid fleece. Grid fleece is like your waffle looking fleece. It's heavier, also doesn't block wind. It gets very heavy when it's wet, but like high-end stuff for that is a Patagonia R1. Those are very nice. You can find them used everywhere. You've had to go in your seltzer and shit used. A budget US military surplus waffle top is also like, I wanted to try, these because people kept asking me about them. I paid $ 7 for one. 00:29:43 Speaker 3: Worth it? 00:29:44 Speaker 2: So they are very cheap. Okay. Yeah, they're great. They're really good. They're fine. I don't think you would really... If that was what you had, you wouldn't really be losing that much to 60s. You can find used alphas all the time for $ 60, but they're still nearly 10 times more. That Polartec grid fleece material is good, so you can look for that. When you're buying stuff, Polartec did make some of those waffle tops for the US military. If I'm just not being particularly active, I do love a wool jumper or a flannel. I think wool jumpers look nice. I think you get a nice knitted wool jumper with the nice big buttons on the front. 00:30:18 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. 00:30:18 Speaker 2: I'm going to have. 00:30:19 Speaker 3: To pick your brain about best wool sweaters because I was having a hard time finding a 100%. 00:30:25 Speaker 2: Wool sweater yes it can be hard right and i want a nice one yeah right it's worth putting some money into. 00:30:31 Speaker 3: Like i think my husband would look so cute in a little cable knit sweater. 00:30:34 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah but you just got to find one that isn't half plastic yeah well it's time to learn to knit that's not happening for me i would like to learn to knit i enjoy wearing wool stuff i just uh i've got a lot of hobbies Wool doesn't get smelly. It's stretchy. It can be repaired. It's not made of plastic. It biodegrades if you ever do want to get rid of it. It looks good. I will do a whole episode on like ethically sourcing wool because I think there are some concerns there. Other mid layers are like synthetic lofted insulations. These are super warm and very light, but they don't really breathe very well unless it's cold as fuck. Like we don't want to be sweating up and getting wet from sweat, right? So these are good if you're like, Alpine mountaineering, maybe if you're ice climbing. Generally, people make them breathe by big vents or having different fabric under their arms. 00:31:25 Speaker 3: Oh, that's what the vents are for. So you're compromising, like, is the wind touching me, but can my sweat get out? 00:31:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if it's done right, you're thinking, where do I want to be warm? Where do I want to let warmth out? 00:31:38 Speaker 3: I've got to let my pits breathe. 00:31:40 Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah, you've got to let the pits get the air in. 00:31:42 Speaker 3: And the vented pants, where's the vent? Is it like a crotch situation? 00:31:47 Speaker 2: Well, sometimes you can get vented. Yeah, you get little grommets in the crotch, which let it vent. With mine, I have zippers on the outside of the thigh. 00:31:55 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:31:56 Speaker 2: So if you imagine like from hip to knee. 00:31:59 Speaker 3: Okay. 00:32:00 Speaker 2: I can just open that up for you. 00:32:01 Speaker 3: So really just open that all the way up. 00:32:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, let it out. 00:32:04 Speaker 3: Like a sunroof, yeah. 00:32:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the thighs, those are the money makers, right? They're doing the work when you're hiking uphill, so you want to. 00:32:10 Speaker 3: But I feel like the sweat is in kind of the crotch zone. 00:32:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Well, I'd be hopeful you get a good lateral breeze if you've got the two thighs open. 00:32:17 Speaker 3: Oh, like a cross breeze, right? Like opening windows on opposite sides. 00:32:19 Speaker 1: Of the house. Okay. 00:32:21 Speaker 2: Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. You found a good analogy. 00:32:23 Speaker 3: I get it. 00:32:24 Speaker 2: Sometimes also I have a pair of beyond clothing pants that have like, The pockets are made of mesh. So if you open up the zippers of the pockets, they kind of vent themselves. 00:32:35 Speaker 3: Oh, cool. 00:32:36 Speaker 2: Problem is I'm like a fucking squirrel. I'm always carrying a bunch of stuff around and putting stuff in my pockets. 00:32:41 Speaker 3: Right, because then you can't use the pockets. 00:32:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you still do. You either lose something or like, I don't know. I like to get like pine pitch, you know, like when it dries from a pine tree. Yeah. 00:32:54 Speaker 3: And what do you do with that? Why are you taking it home? 00:32:56 Speaker 2: Well, you can bake fires with it. It's very flammable. It's very good, natural. And it smells lovely. But if it's dried and crystallized and then you put it in your pocket, it kind of warms up and moistens. 00:33:09 Speaker 3: Sticky pockets. 00:33:10 Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a couple of trousers where I've also just sat on a tree stump. They'll never be the same. There's pine pitch deeply embedded in there now. Oh, one more thing, little vest. If you work in investment banking, fintech, any associated field, really, if you know what an NFT is and have previously owned one, these are a fantastic choice for you. They are actually nice. Like if you want to use that synthetic warm insulation, I have one that's like a little bit of that alpha fabric and a little bit of that synthetic insulation and then vented sides. And obviously the pits are open to begin with because it's a vest or a gilet. Because it's a vest. to call it in the United Kingdom. 00:33:49 Speaker 4: A what? 00:33:50 Speaker 2: A gilet. 00:33:52 Speaker 3: No. Yeah. What is that? 00:33:54 Speaker 2: Yeah. What is that? I think it's derived from the French word, which is also gilet. Sometimes people will say gillet, but I don't think that's true. I'm fine with mispronouncing French words. It's like very American of me. They deserve it. So those can be pretty nice. Velocio had a really nice one. They still make it, but I have one that I really like. I just don't like to wear it in public because then you're like a vest guy. So keep that one for the outdoors. 00:34:24 Speaker 1: Right. 00:34:24 Speaker 3: People think you work on Wall Street. 00:34:26 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. People think you're going to be an angel investor. I don't understand how any of that shit works. Wind layers. So it's a wind layer. The clue is in the name. Keeps the wind off. It keeps a little bit of rain off. It also is a nice thing to protect your other stuff from the outside because the brambles, they want to steal everything. And so you have a little jacket you can put over your fluffy polo tech layer or your fluffy down jacket and it stops you from getting all scratched up. So you have to get them a bit bigger. I like to get them a size up from my usual size. Right, because you're puffy already. Yeah, exactly. When I'm puffed up, you know, I'm like the fucking marshmallow man out there. So I need to go XL for those. People call them soft shells, but like the soft shell fabric that most people are referring to is kind of too heavy. 00:35:12 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:35:13 Speaker 2: And not breathable enough. The one I like here is like, there's a fabric called Pertex Quantum Air. Fuck off. See, this is like the shit that I think about all the time, just inside my head. Mountain Hardware calls it Core Airshell. And you'll see this a lot, right? Like oftentimes, if you can find a fabric that you like, a bunch of brands will use it and they will often not use that name in the product name. You'll have to kind of dig around to see. And then you can find Essentially the same shit cheaper from someone else, right? If you know what kind of fabrics or qualities of fabric you're looking for. This stuff's rad. Like it's soft and it's light and it breathes well, blocks wind. I have like a wind jacket, maybe packs to the size of like a tennis ball. And I'll pretty frequently do that like down to freezing with a base layer in my moving or over that like that little fleece layer. 00:36:04 Speaker 3: You have to put all of this in like a PDF or something, all of these different fabric names. Pertex what? 00:36:10 Speaker 2: Pertex Quantum Air. 00:36:12 Speaker 3: Quantum Air. 00:36:13 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's somebody whose job it is to make those up. And rather than just calling it like light breathable wind, they went Quantum Air. 00:36:20 Speaker 3: I guess it has to be trademarkable, right? 00:36:23 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, true. You have to pick one that someone hasn't already got. If I'm less active, I really like to use like nylon cotton blends that are waxed. 00:36:35 Speaker 3: Hard to find a waxed jacket these days. That's sort of an old timey thing. 00:36:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm an old timey person. 00:36:41 Speaker 3: I mean, you don't really see a good waxed jacket. There's a lot of reproductions that are meant to look like waxed jackets. But I feel like you got to wax it yourself these days. 00:36:51 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can wax it yourself. Well, you're going to be waxing yourself anyway, right? Like after you wash it a few times, wax is going to come out if you wash it. Like you can get a Filson, right? You cannot bet it's going to cost you like 800 bucks. Right. You can get a Barber in the UK. Hey, everyone. Editing James here again. I just wanted to point out that, of course, Carhartt makes wax jackets too, as does a company called Forgeline Fieldwear. The Forgeline ones have a really interesting dry waxed. feel to them so they don't feel quite as greasy if that's a texture thing or a look thing that you don't like of course it's very easy to find used jackets that have been waxed as well and if they have lost some of their durable water repellent coating which is what the wax is you

can easily re-wax them save a lot of money that way buying something that someone thinks is broken but in fact just needs a little bit of maintenance But yeah, if you get like a jacket, which is cotton or even like a blend, you can wax it yourself pretty easily. Like I've done that a ton. 00:37:43 Speaker 3: That like that real thick sort of stiff cotton. 00:37:45 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it doesn't have to be as long as it's able to absorb the wax. 00:37:51 Speaker 3: I've seen some tutorials for it. It looks like a cool process. I don't imagine I will ever do it. 00:37:56 Speaker 2: I did mine the other day. 00:37:57 Speaker 3: No shit. 00:37:58 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:37:59 Speaker 2: There's a few waxes. I get really into this. They go from like hard waxes, like the one that Fjallraven makes all the way to like a oil, like the Barber oil or the Filson. Filson makes a cream, which is somewhere in the middle. And yeah, you just want to, just want to rub them in and then you need to use some heat to set it. So you either iron it on low, or if you do it in the summer, you can hang outside and set in nicely. I really like those kinds of waxed fabrics because I can choose where I want them to be waterproof and where I don't want them to be. I can choose how much wax I want to use for how much water repellency I want. I'm not leaving microplastics in the outdoors. With Gore-Tex, you have to use a special detergent to wash it. And that will refresh the DWR. Yeah. Or any, any of those three layer waterproof, breathable fabrics or two and a half layer. So I really like the wax jackets. 00:38:49 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:38:49 Speaker 2: You could go there. There's a company called Forlo who makes lightweight ones for hunting that are pretty good. Like in terms of like making people making technical performance stuff, it's pretty much them and Fuel Rub. 00:38:59 Speaker 3: They feel so English to me. I don't know. For some reason it's, it's, What you wear to the hunt club. It's for fox hunting. 00:39:04 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:39:05 Speaker 2: Oh, no, no one would wear them for fox hunting. Fox hunting is, no, people are wearing like a little red. 00:39:09 Speaker 3: You're out at the hunt club. You're like shooting skeet in your wax jacket. 00:39:14 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've shot some. I'm definitely shooting birds. I think it is that kind of, yeah. Britain has very specific rules on what to wear for different things. 00:39:23 Speaker 3: But you know, it feels very English. 00:39:25 Speaker 2: It is, yeah. I have a few wax jackets at home that are pretty much... They're great, though. Like, if you're out and about all day and they're wet, it's nice. I like to have big pockets, too. Very hunting-coded. 00:39:35 Speaker 3: For your shotgun shells, yeah. 00:39:37 Speaker 2: Exactly. And then a few pigeons in one and shotgun shells in the other. Well, you get some. They have what's called a poacher pocket. And it's a big pocket that goes all the way around the back.

00:39:45 Speaker 3: And you put the dead birds in there? 00:39:47 Speaker 2: Exactly. 00:39:47 Speaker 3: In your pockets? 00:39:48 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:39:49 Speaker 2: At the back, yeah, at the back. So it's like above your... So it's like if you imagine like a. 00:39:53 Speaker 3: Like a fanny pack full of dead birds. 00:39:55 Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. That's a great way of saying it. It's very, very practical. It's like a load-bearing jacket. 00:40:02 Speaker 4: I don't know. 00:40:03 Speaker 3: Do you wax that extra so the bird blood doesn't soak in? 00:40:07 Speaker 2: No, that's what it's for. It's fine. I'll be inside. We don't have bears, so you don't have to worry about... I mean, I guess other people might have other objections or sensibilities, but my big concern would be a bear coming and eating me because my jacket smelled like dead stuff, which isn't an issue in the UK. Sadly, wish we did have bears. But yeah, I like to wax my own stuff, do it all the time. The final layer. 00:40:32 Speaker 3: There's more layers. 00:40:33 Speaker 2: There's more layers. This is your big, warm, puffy jacket. This is the last layer. 00:40:37 Speaker 3: I love a big, warm jacket. 00:40:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. You can go a long way, especially when it's just dry and cold. If you're in Wyoming or Montana in the winter, if you're just going about town, you can just wear your normal t-shirt and then a giant fucking jacket and be fine. It's a bit different when you're out and about expeditioning. Your big, warm, puffy jacket. These are more binary, I guess. You have down and you have synthetic. So down is, it's a natural product, right? It's like, have you ever plucked? I'm guessing no, now that I'm thinking of this analogy. 00:41:08 Speaker 3: I have not plucked a bird. Okay. 00:41:10 Speaker 2: Not at all. 00:41:11 Speaker 3: But I have owned a down pillow. 00:41:12 Speaker 2: Okay, you've owned a down pillow. Okay, perfect. So if you had plucked a waterfowl. 00:41:18 Speaker 3: No. Okay. 00:41:20 Speaker 2: So when you're doing it, like you've got big feathers and then when you get to the chest, it's just as thin, very fluffy. It doesn't really have like the spine that a normal feather has. That is a down. And where the down comes from in your clothes is as a byproduct of the duck and goose meat industries, chiefly in Eastern Europe and Asia, chiefly in China, I think. 00:41:43 Speaker 3: I was going to say, for the number of down pillows I have seen, I don't think we're eating that much duck and goose. 00:41:48 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:41:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of folks are eating that much duck and goose, so it's not here. But yeah, the ducking consumption would not offset the down usage. 00:41:57 Speaker 3: So you're saying if I could start an online trend to get more people interested in eating duck, maybe down pillows would be less expensive? 00:42:06 Speaker 2: It is possible. Yeah, that's one way of going about that. I mean, we've got this whole avian

influenza thing right now, so maybe it gives the ducks a little break. But snow geese... Maybe. I mean, snow geese are probably having a hard time right now, but snow geese numbers are very high because agricultural practices were the choke point on snow goose populations, from what I understand. So as agriculture changed, the snow geese numbers increased, and they're kind of fucking up the Arctic because we had higher numbers of them. So for a while there, there were hunting practices that would be seen as unethical if they were any other animal, I guess. And you could say they were unethical for snow geese too. But yeah. But they deserved it. 00:42:45 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:42:46 Speaker 2: I don't think they deserved it. That's the thing, right? They're just geese goosing around. 00:42:49 Speaker 3: Just goosing around. 00:42:50 Speaker 2: Yeah. They didn't know about the fucking Arctic. And we fucked up the Arctic way more than any individual goose did. The thing with down, right, is that it's a natural product. So it has to be like sorted and graded. And it's sorted and graded generally by fill power. There's also like the down to feather ratio that that Once you get to a higher fill power, which is, you can think of the fill power of like how- How fluffy it is. Yeah, exactly. How poofy the down is. So for like technical shit, I like to look above 800 fill power. The down itself is also now DWR treated, which is durable water repellency. It can also have like a gold, that there's a way of spraying it with little particles of gold, which from what I understand stops the bond between hydrogen and oxygen. and so it prevents it wetting out that way. I'm not as familiar with that one, but generally, the downerty has a water repellency of its own when it comes off the goose, but it's not retained through the processing process. 00:43:51 Speaker 3: I mean, this sounds like something the king's alchemist would recommend in 1427. You know, we're going to spray the feathers with a little bit of gold. 00:43:59 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Then we're going to take a little bit of mercury and it'll be fine. 00:44:04 Speaker 3: A lot of mercury. 00:44:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of mercury. You're going to love the mercury. Big fucking issue back then. You can get ethically certified down. I need to look into more. Is that real? That's what I need to check out, right? 00:44:16 Speaker 3: Because when they say that about diamonds, that's not real. 00:44:19 Speaker 2: Right. I'm not sure how much oversight it's possible to have, unless you're doing it in North America, which it is possible to do, how much oversight is when you're buying this stuff as a byproduct of a meat industry, like into the conditions. But I don't know. I will reach out to the Allied Feather and Down people and ask them what they're doing there. The goal with your puffy layer is to be as warm as possible when you're not moving. When I'm picking a puffy layer, what do I want? I look at like the

fill power and then the actual weight of the insulation. Like I want to know how many feathers am I getting? 00:44:51 Speaker 3: Don't cheap out on the feathers. Yeah, exactly. 00:44:53 Speaker 2: You don't want to cheap, especially if you're like, if you're like mountaineering, like if you want light and warm. Everything else I will kind of allow to get wet, allow to compromise. My sleeping bag and my puffy get wet. Like I'm fucking. Toast. You're toast. Yeah. Go home. Well, like this week I had like a gnarly fucking storm and it was like dropping trees all up on the mountain and. I could see lightning strikes hitting the ridge across from me and it was raining fucking sideways. 00:45:20 Speaker 3: You're not making this sound fun. 00:45:22 Speaker 2: But look, I was fine. I had my stuff, so I was fine. I hunkered down. There was a fucking moose as well. It was dark and I was trying to get off the ridge, so I was moving downhill. And I'd seen this moose's shit, so I knew it was around. But then I could smell the fuck. You get close to a moose, you can smell to them. Like most big game, right? 00:45:40 Speaker 3: I bet that's a good smell, too. 00:45:42 Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. 00:45:42 Speaker 2: He's a funky boy. Yeah, he's not wearing a wool base layer. 00:45:45 Speaker 1: Musky. 00:45:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a musk to him. And I was really worried about bumping into this moose in the dark, but I didn't. My bag did get a little bit wet, so I made a fire and dried it out, like I prioritized doing that. So you can also get synthetic, right? Synthetic tends to do a little bit better with wet. People will say it's warm when it's wet. If your jacket is fucking soaked, it's not warm. Like you need to be realistic about this stuff. Like if you're wearing a wet towel, it's cold, but it does do better with moisture. It can dry faster. It can be cheaper. They can be a little bit bulkier, but some of the modern ones like Primaloft Gold is a good one to look at. climber shield apex is really interesting because it doesn't need to be baffled. 00:46:27 Speaker 3: Oh but they sew the compartments exactly right to keep it from clumping yeah to keep it from moving so like you don't want to have like all your down around your belly in your jacket right you know like all going to the middle you don't want that so like climber shield apex is like sheet so it doesn't have to be baffled like that also every baffle is a cold. 00:46:44 Speaker 2: Spot right because it's not insulation there right um so it was really cool to have these like really tiny baffles for a while but To me, like every baffle is a compromise. So like, I don't know why. Because the stitching is tiny holes. Stitching is tiny holes, right, which is letting air in and out. And then there's no insulation at the point where you've sewn the two fabrics together, right? 00:47:02 Speaker 3: Because the reason the puffy layer is warm, right, is that your body heats up the air. Like it creates this like

area where there's air and your body heats up the air. So if all the pockets are very small, the little pockets of air that you're warming up are very small. 00:47:16 Speaker 2: Yes. And there are gaps in between them where it could escape. 00:47:19 Speaker 3: So that seems less warm. 00:47:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to be less warm for the amount of down and the weight of the jacket, right? And also it's more weight of stitching. You've got more little gaps where heat can get out. 00:47:29 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can picture those. That was very trendy for a while. 00:47:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, right? Like there's some really interesting, like I've seen like thermal little footage of those and you can actually see the baffles in some cases. Yeah, you can get some really light, warm Apex jackets. I like Apex a lot. I made myself a blanket with Climbershield Apex because... I go to jungles a good amount, right? Like for work. Um, and it can actually be really cold in the jungle, but like you're, you're down a, I don't really like things that are associated with being unkind to animals and be, I get wet in the jungle. You're fucking wet all the time. So I wanted something that would be better for that. Uh, and I made this little blanket and then I put a little clip on it so I can also like. 00:48:05 Speaker 3: Where does the cape? 00:48:06 Speaker 2: Well, I've made it so it's like a hood. 00:48:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:48:08 Speaker 2: Hooded cape. Yeah. So I can go wizard mode. 00:48:10 Speaker 3: Be cozy, hands-free. 00:48:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, and magical. But, uh, because it's uh apex didn't have to baffle it so it's a lot less sewing which is good because i'm not that good at so i mean i could sew but i mean you made a cape oh we had needlework class when i was in uh primary school so i did a lot of like cross stitch. 00:48:27 Speaker 3: Did you go to elementary school in 1840 no. 00:48:29 Speaker 2: Just uh the school that i went to used to be an all-girls school so like it was like 80 girls and that was a very gendered and probably still is a very considered a very gendered skill right but But a good one to have. Yeah, no, I'm glad I could sew. It served you well. Yeah, I think it's kind of sad when people don't have that skill to fix their own shit. Other things I want in my jacket, I want a big hood. I want pockets on the inside so I can put my wet socks in them to dry out. And I want some insulation in front of the hand pockets. So if I'm working, like Margaret and I were in Minneapolis in January and it was cold as fuck, like minus 30 with wind chill. And... I can't have big mittens on if I'm working, so I need to operate the machinery. As it turns out, actually, all your Zoom recorders, once it gets to about minus 20, they will just start flashing hot, hot, hot, and they're die in a way that. 00:49:21 Speaker 3: Because they don't understand that it could be that cold. 00:49:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like- Like something's wrong. Temperature bad. So I like to have insulation in the pocket so I can still wear thin gloves, put my hands behind insulation and keep them warm that way. And the underappreciated issue, the pocket insulation thing. If it's really cold- And I'm just like around town. I might do a thick wool coat or a car hat makes a nice insulated jacket. So I have like, they're designed for working in so you can articulate your shoulders, which can be an issue in some puffies. So I like those a lot. You can also get fire resistant ones, which is nice. You're very worried about getting caught on fire. I'm really worried about fire. 00:49:57 Speaker 3: What are you getting into? 00:49:58 Speaker 2: Well, it's like I go to places where things catch fire or like if I'm covering some kind of like, this is so much flammable shit. 00:50:05 Speaker 3: I've just never, I've never considered it when purchasing my clothes. And now I will. 00:50:09 Speaker 2: Like if I'm going to cover a protest and like a car catches fire or someone throws an inflammatory device. 00:50:15 Speaker 3: I do love watching a good car get set on fire. 00:50:17 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. Like it will be a shame, a shame to have to shy away from such things. 00:50:22 Speaker 3: In case you exploded. 00:50:23 Speaker 2: Caught fire. Yeah. Or like if it's cold, you know, people might be having like a good old oil can fire. 00:50:28 Speaker 1: Oh, true. 00:50:30 Speaker 2: It's a tradition. Or like hot tank camping, getting into hot tank camping. It's having a stove inside your tent. Did that up in the Arctic last year. So you're always around fire, you know. And it's kind of nice being a tent. 00:50:42 Speaker 3: I have a lot of scenarios I've never encountered. 00:50:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, but the day is coming when we take Molly hot camping and encourage a moose to charge her. 00:50:51 Speaker 3: I think the moose could be my friend because it would know I'm pure of heart. 00:50:54 Speaker 2: I thought that too. But as it turns out that... But your heart's not as pure as that. Yeah, maybe I was tried and found wanting. It's like a. 00:51:01 Speaker 3: Unicorn situation, you know? The unicorn would know that I have a beautiful soul. 00:51:06 Speaker 2: And then it would just prance past you. Tell you what, multiple fucking moose found me wanting in the purity of heart department. They're just wild. I've been close to moose before, but one of them, fuck me. I had to get very aggressive with it. Final thing, I guess, people are probably wondering if I wonder about pantsless. The answer, of course, is yes, but not when it's cold. For cold weather outside pants, I kind of like the Fjallraven ones. I'm trying my best. 00:51:48 Speaker 3: I thought we already covered pants with this sort of mesh situation. 00:51:51 Speaker 2: You want something else between you and the world. 00:51:53 Speaker 3: The crotch was solid. 00:51:55 Speaker 2: The crotch was solid. Yeah, yeah. Technically, you're probably not

breaking any laws. It's all down to personal morality at that point. I like ones where I can wax the knees and the butt and the shins because it keeps rain off. Or you can get pants with a little light DWR. I don't like really warm pants because... Like your legs generate so much heat when you're moving. I'd rather be able to layer either puffy pants over them. So I've done that before. Like I was in the Arctic. I was with some folks who are hunting caribou. And like, if you're going to do the thing where you climb up to the highest point in this area and then sit there and look with binoculars for caribou, you go from like working really hard to being really fucking cold. Having down pants in that situation is really nice. Enlightened Equipment makes some really nice down pants. They also absolutely love cops. Oh. Yeah, it's real disappointing. 00:52:49 Speaker 3: I guess you're going to run into that with a lot of outdoor brands, right? Because there's going to be like hunting gear, which is really close. Like anytime there's gun guys involved, a lot of them love the police. 00:52:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. This guy, the guy who owns Enlightened Equipment also owns Defense Mechanism. So they're the same company. It's a DBA, I think. When it. transpired that they were owned by the same company. I watched some podcast interviews he does as the CEO of Defense Mechanisms. There is shit that he said about people who do not look like me that I think is fucking reprehensible. And I don't want to give that dude my fucking money. The Defense Mechanisms Instagram is replete with right-wing dog whistles. Yeah, when he's being Defense Mechanisms and he's going mask off, like, that's not a guy I want to send my money to. But they do make a nice insulated pant, if that's your thing. Damn. But yeah, you can also wear gaiters. I have some gaiters from a company called Cthulhu with two O's. They're really nice. They're light. A gaiter goes from your mid-calf to the bottom of your boot and it's a waterproof. So I very rarely wear waterproof pants because you'll be sweating up. I don't like heavy gaiters. You're lifting them every time you step, right? So the heavier your boots and gaiters are. 00:53:58 Speaker 3: It's like ankle weights. 00:54:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I hope people aren't still wearing ankle weights. The only issue I have is really like one of those Cthulhu ones is like the issue I was having was they get caked in mud and then the mud would stop the zipper opening and closing. 00:54:13 Speaker 3: Seems like a huge design flaw. 00:54:14 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:54:15 Speaker 3: Because you know they're going to get muddy. That's the point of them. 00:54:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the function of them, right? 00:54:19 Speaker 3: That's what they're for. 00:54:20 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then it would freeze and that would be a real fucking issue. I'd have to get like this cigarette lighter out and just melt. and kind of get in there with my knife or take

them into the creek and dip them there are some uh there's a company called hill sound i have them somewhere here and they zipper starts at the top hey everyone editing james again here most gators are like this right most gators uh start the zip at the bottom and bring it up to the top and that's because otherwise the zipper pull is going to be at the bottom right the actual little toggle part when you're walking around and you're more likely to break it uh you're more likely to get mud stuffed in that it's just kind of a uh Cost of doing business, I guess, sort of industry standard is the outdoor research crocodile, which very funny, crocodile gator, right? But I really like those Cthulhu ones for being light, for being relatively breathable and for being waterproof. So don't let my zipper issue. Like I was in constantly mid-shin mud for a week. I think for a lot of people, these will be a great choice. 00:55:17 Speaker 3: You know, I'm just realizing now we've made a huge mistake. This should have been a video episode and it should have been a fashion show. 00:55:23 Speaker 1: Sure. 00:55:24 Speaker 4: Sure. 00:55:24 Speaker 2: Send me the fishnet fucking trousers. 00:55:28 Speaker 3: No, because you own most of these things. You own most of these things. Show them to us. 00:55:33 Speaker 2: Yeah. Only when the fishnet trousers come will I do the Natural Causes fashion show. 00:55:39 Speaker 3: Do you have any fishnet baselers? 00:55:41 Speaker 1: No. 00:55:42 Speaker 2: Like I say, like I'm just, I guess like, My natural British sense of modesty has prevented me. 00:55:47 Speaker 3: Also, they're fucking expensive. They do look pricey. That was like a 300 euro wool bodysuit. 00:55:51 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:55:52 Speaker 2: I mean, you're probably paying for a Norwegian person to have like a rock solid union job, great health care. 00:55:57 Speaker 3: But I'm so happy for them. 00:55:59 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just broke. I will cover footwear in another episode because it's very complicated. Gloves are also very complicated. I will say like I have a pair of gloves that make me look like a lobster. So if you ever watch Mork and Mindy. 00:56:11 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 00:56:12 Speaker 3: So it's like a half-mitten. 00:56:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like two fingers and two fingers. 00:56:18 Speaker 3: What do you get out of that? 00:56:19 Speaker 2: A lot more dexterity. 00:56:21 Speaker 3: A little bit of gripping? 00:56:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit. You can grab stuff and the two fingers can pivot. So if you're grabbing a bottle or something... It's surprisingly more dexterous than a mitten. 00:56:30 Speaker 3: But a little bit cozier than a glove. 00:56:33 Speaker 2: Yeah. Once you get to really thick insulated gloves, you're losing so much dexterity anyway. 00:56:38 Speaker 3: They just don't move at all. 00:56:39 Speaker 2: And your hands aren't as warm because you're warming up each little individual pocket with a tiny little finger rather than one big pocket with all your hand. So I tend to do either a mitten or a lobster mitten. And then I wear like a little merino glove. On the inside. 00:56:57 Speaker 3: Like a glove liner, like long johns for your fingers. 00:57:00 Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. This is a layering system. You've got to make sure the merino glove works with your phone because otherwise you'll either take it off and get really cold or you're going to have to use your nose to do your phone. 00:57:11 Speaker 3: Or you could get a little stylus. 00:57:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I would fuss about with one of those, but. That's an option. You could. 00:57:21 Speaker 3: My fingernails are too long to use my phone very efficiently. So I have like a thousand of these little styluses. 00:57:26 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:57:27 Speaker 2: Okay. Fascinating. See, there you go. That's something I've never even thought about. So you use a stylus all the time. 00:57:33 Speaker 3: I mean, I'd prefer it. I can still use my phone normally if I like turn my finger like at a steep angle like this. 00:57:38 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:57:38 Speaker 2: But yeah, you have to like pad it. Yeah. Fascinating. 00:57:42 Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. 00:57:42 Speaker 2: I would lose it. It's a problem. I'd lose it. 00:57:44 Speaker 3: That's why I have 50,000 of them. 00:57:45 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. 00:57:46 Speaker 3: They come in packs of 25 or something. 00:57:47 Speaker 2: Nice, yeah. You still go to the stylist barrel in your garden. Yeah, I'll just use my nose if it's cold. You can get a pretty good one with your nose. That's like I've taken a few pictures of that moose with my nose, actually. Because I couldn't get to my phone in time and a moose was coming and I didn't have time to take the glove off. The other thing with gloves is there's a company called Eau Claire who make my lobster gloves and they also make a nice... insulated leather work glove, which is really great for like, if you're chopping wood or moving off trail or feeding a stove, having like a synthetic glove with a thin outer layer, like you're just going to fucking shred them. So having like an insulated like work style glove is super nice. The worst possible thing that can ever fucking happen to you is having to pack up a tent in the morning when it's just around freezing and there's like slushy ice on the tent. When you want to cool someone, when they are hyperthermic, you put them in slushy ice, right? 00:58:46 Speaker 3: It's the best for cooling things down. 00:58:48 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah. I have something called Raynaud's where my hands don't get very good circulation. And from years of racing bikes on cobbles, I just destroyed the circulatory system there. 00:58:58 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know you could do that with mechanical damage. 00:59:01 Speaker 2: Jesus. Yeah, guys who run a jackhammer get it as well. 00:59:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:59:05 Speaker 2: But yeah, bike racing fucks you up as it turns out. So I have these gloves.

that i learned about from commercial fishing they're like rubber on the outside so we're turning to a rubber suit. 00:59:16 Speaker 3: So you have like a full rubber suit. 00:59:18 Speaker 2: Well like up to the elbows you know and then like maybe i don't know where else i sort of rub on the back side of the trousers uh like it's kind of like a chaps and gloves situation i guess They're really light. They're warm. They're dexterous. And they have like felt on the inside. So like imagine like your gloves that you do the dishes with. 00:59:36 Speaker 1: Right. 00:59:37 Speaker 3: It has that sort of like velvety inside. 00:59:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. Those things. And they're like maybe $ 20. Those things fucking rip. I would do anything to avoid putting my tent away when it's like slushy water like that. It's generally like a miserable experience. Well, it never happened to me inside. But then how many moose did you see last week? 00:59:57 Speaker 3: That's true. 00:59:58 Speaker 2: How many little grouse, mule deer? 01:00:00 Speaker 3: But the moose, they're still out there in the summertime. The moose is a summertime animal as well. 01:00:05 Speaker 2: Yes, but you have to share the moose with so many other tourists. 01:00:10 Speaker 3: I bet you know a place where there's a moose, but no other tourists. I bet you do. 01:00:14 Speaker 2: I could probably, I could get you there. I could make it happen. Maybe next summer we'll go on Molly's moose vacation. 01:00:19 Speaker 3: I want to see a big mammal. I want to see a big mammal. 01:00:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. Someone did reach out with an opportunity for you to see a pronghorn. I need to follow up with them. That would be fun. I also like to have little plug-in hand warmers. I have one bullet point on hats. It's a very long episode. 01:00:33 Speaker 3: I do love a little hand warmer. I also have Raynaud's. And one of the things, when I have to be outside for covering a protest in cold weather... I can't wear gloves if I'm using my phone, like really like a lot, a lot using my phone. 01:00:45 Speaker 2: I can't wear gloves. 01:00:46 Speaker 3: So I wear fingerless gloves. But I put those little hot hands hand warmer inside of it. So it's like touching my palm or the inside of my wrist. So that as the blood moves past it, it's warm. 01:00:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. I have actually, if I'm covering a protest, which is like more dangerous, I wear my little plate carrier, like bulletproof vest thing, because we live in America and people do love to be shooting each other. And I have a little thing that hangs down from it, which is like a tube. And I put my hand warmers in there. My hands go in there. And I also put my recorder in there so it can stay warm. I have little ones that charge off USB-C. Okay. 01:01:19 Speaker 3: I run through those little disposable ones like candy in the winter. 01:01:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of trash, right? Like it's a lot of stuff. I think it's iron. I think it's oxidizing iron in there or something. But yeah, the USB-C ones have been really good. And you can tune the warmness level. And they come on instantly that you don't have to shake them and wait 15 minutes, you know, like. 01:01:37 Speaker 3: Maybe I'll get that this winter. 01:01:39 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll get you one for Christmas. 01:01:41 Speaker 3: Or maybe I'll be inside. 01:01:43 Speaker 2: Also an option. Hat shit. I have a felted wool, like it kind of, it's not a cowboy hat, but it's like a hat with a brim. I did once meet a, like 2023 when all the migrants were arriving. These Colombian people had just crossed the border and they were walking and like I went, it looked like one of them was hurt. So I went to check if that person was okay. And then. uh, one of them took a selfie with me and he's like, wow, I met a real American cowboy. And I was like, oh, sorry, buddy. 01:02:08 Speaker 3: Exactly. A real American cowboy. 01:02:10 Speaker 2: But yeah, that's a thing a lot of people say about me. 01:02:12 Speaker 3: It's a real, real missed opportunity not to make this a fashion show. I want to see the hat. 01:02:16 Speaker 2: The hat's great. I have, uh, uh, some nice badges on it. Yeah, it's a good hat. I put badges on it to give it less of a cowboy vibe, you know, like, uh, What else do I like to wear? I don't love like a beanie because if it's wet, you get like a One Direction situation, you know, where the beanie is like flopping back like a Harry Styles. And that's not what I'm aiming for. 01:02:36 Speaker 3: So that's just a fashion consideration. It goes in your eyes, is the thing. 01:02:42 Speaker 2: Or it falls back off your head if it's wet. There's a company called Skeeter, which makes micro fleece hats that like have little flowers on them. They're like tones down the vibe. They have something that's pink and flowery. So I like to wear that one. And I really like trapper caps, which I know is the opposite of turning down the vibe. But like the ones where it's like, you know what Elmer Fudge used to wear? 01:03:02 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that's cozy because it's got like the ear flaps. 01:03:06 Speaker 2: Exactly. And you can vent. You can let the ears breathe. And then when it's cold. Oh, because you can like fold them up. Fold them up, tie them on top, a little bow. Yeah. 01:03:14 Speaker 3: Oh, these are cute. Maybe I'll get one of these. 01:03:17 Speaker 2: Trapper caps are great. I got one in a ranch supply store in Wyoming that I really like. So I'm not sure if that's replicable for everyone. But yeah, I like mine a lot. I wear it all the time. I kind of like the old school. It's wool, right? Like it's got a little fleecy inside and it keeps the rain out of my eyes. I think that's pretty much all I got. That was a lot. Do you have any further requests? 01:03:42 Speaker 3: The fashion show. 01:03:43 Speaker 2: The fashion show. Yeah. We don't even have an Instagram account. So I don't know how. Maybe one day when it is cold. I'm going to Alaska in December. So maybe I will do a little, like a hot tent fashion show for everyone. 01:03:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, like, you know, just when you're putting your outfit on, as you're putting on each layer, describe it to us. Or like lay it out, you know, lay it all out side by side. 01:04:05 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah. 01:04:06 Speaker 2: I used to do that when I would do big, like I bike packed around Rwanda and everyone wants to know what you took with you. 01:04:14 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 01:04:14 Speaker 2: More than the more exciting questions, like how do you fucking navigate? So I would get my buddy to stand on top of his roof and I would lie on the ground with all the things like folded up on the ground next to me. And so it looked like a kind of exploded view. So I could do that. I'll do that next time I'm traveling somewhere. Maybe I'll do it and we can use it as a thumbnail for this episode if I do it in time. 01:04:33 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess we shouldn't be encouraging you to make short form videos because then they'll make us all do short form videos. And I'm not doing that. 01:04:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck it. I'm not doing that shit. Yeah, like... I'm not pivoting to video. Yeah, I've spent this long trying not to have my face in my work. So I ain't changing. Molly, where can people, if people want to hear more of your voice, people want to learn about weird little Nazis, where can they? 01:04:54 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. I'm not outside. I am inside reading old Nazi newsletters. You can hear more about that on my podcast, Weird Little Guys, anywhere you listen to podcasts. Lovely. 01:05:05 Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah. Next week, I'm going to be back to our more traditional scripted format. We're going to be talking about AI, the outdoors, and why we go into the mountains. Thank you for listening. If you would like to email us, you can do so. It's naturalcausespod at proton.me. If you want it to be encrypted, you can do it from another ProtonMail address. Thank you for listening. Bye-bye. 01:05:32 Speaker 4: Natural Cause is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for natural causes listed directly in episode descriptions. 01:05:48 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.