บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Folk Horror and Doppelgangers: Darren Simpson and Lykewise

art as well to the films and the books that creep you out without putting everything in your face in such an explicit way. 56 00:04:28.937 --> 00:04:33.518 Well, of course, the tradition of telling the ghost story around the fire is probably as old as campfires. 57 00:04:34.299 --> 00:04:39.240 So there is an element in us that seeks that thrill. 58 00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:41.060 Yeah. 59 00:04:41.260 --> 00:04:50.583 Not all people at all times, but it's clearly a sort of strong societal urge of which the sort of cinematic or TV version is an expression. 60 00:04:52.544 --> 00:04:57.545 I think, for me, one of the things I don't enjoy in the graphic world 61 00:04:59.020 --> 00:05:10.672 In the same way as I don't like seeing graphic depictions in the news or, heaven forbid, tripping up over something online which you didn't mean to see because you can't unsee it. 62 00:05:11.213 --> 00:05:12.114 Yeah, yeah. 63 00:05:12.721 --> 00:05:14.742 You can't unhear it, depending what it is. 64 00:05:14.822 --> 00:05:18.703 So, yeah, I'm on the avoider side. 65 00:05:18.783 --> 00:05:20.484 Yeah, fair enough. 66 00:05:20.664 --> 00:05:25.225 I should hasten to add to listeners and watchers, there is nothing like that at all. 67 00:05:26.225 --> 00:05:29.346 In Darren's book, it's not something that you need to sort of worry about. 68 00:05:30.167 --> 00:05:30.467 It is... 69 00:05:31.527 --> 00:05:34.548 It's pleasantly creepy without being shocking. 70 00:05:34.628 --> 00:05:36.989 So, you know, if you're thinking, should I buy this for my kid? 71 00:05:37.569 --> 00:05:38.049 Don't worry. 72 00:05:39.049 --> 00:05:41.910 We're not in the schlock world of horror. 73 00:05:42.430 --> 00:05:42.970 Yeah, yeah. 74 00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:45.331 Some people describe it as more of a cozy horror almost. 75 00:05:45.371 --> 00:05:49.772 I mean, it's got its moments, I think, all the sort of village setting and the atmosphere. 76 00:05:49.792 --> 00:05:59.055 But I think, yeah, I kind of, again, I'd rather go for suggestion and an atmosphere of creepiness rather than those outright moments, I think. 77 00:06:01.355 --> 00:06:13.901 So let's actually move closer to where your book sits in the sort of genre, because it's in the tradition of the doppelganger, which does put us into the fantasy aspect of a sort of horror world. 78 00:06:14.701 --> 00:06:23.785 I expect lots of people, one of the first ones they will think of, if you are asked to name a doppelganger story, they'll say, well, obviously, Jacqueline Hyde. 79 00:06:24.545 --> 00:06:24.805 Yes. 80 00:06:24.865 --> 00:06:26.886 The Robert Louis Stevenson. 81 00:06:27.246 --> 00:06:28.887 And I think there's a lot of that... 82 00:06:29.845 --> 00:06:31.866 somewhere behind this story. 83 00:06:32.367 --> 00:06:42.033 And I was also thinking the picture of Dorian Gray, Lost in the Wild, which where Dorian, this beautiful... 84 00:06:43.582 --> 00:06:48.946 man, all the horror of his behavior is being loaded upon a portrait in the attic. 85 00:06:49.427 --> 00:06:50.828 That's where that phrase comes from. 86 00:06:50.888 --> 00:06:53.850 You must have a portrait in the attic kind of thing. 87 00:06:54.190 --> 00:07:06.080 And then there's a sort of an older book from the beginning of the 19th century by James Hogg called The Confessions of a Justified Sinner, which if people haven't read, it's a really interesting early version of this. 88 00:07:06.930 --> 00:07:24.795 And actually Frankenstein itself, another early 90th century novel, the creature is a kind of, he and Victor Frankenstein are in a sort of, you know, they're in an unholy alliance in a way, the creation of the other. 89 00:07:25.495 --> 00:07:28.616 But anyway, so we've got this kind of doppelganger thing. 90 00:07:28.842 --> 00:07:29.182 theme. 91 00:07:29.923 --> 00:07:37.970 Were you aware as you were writing it, Darren, of any particular one that was part of that or did it come from a different direction for you? 92 00:07:38.390 --> 00:07:49.640 Well, it's interesting because there's something, all the examples you mentioned there, they've all got something quite striking in common, which is that they all tend to explore the dark side of somebody being reflected or showing the portrait as in Dorian Gray. 93 00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:52.983 So, I mean, for me, that theme came a bit later on. 94 00:07:53.523 --> 00:07:54.624 At first, I was... 95 00:07:55.525 --> 00:07:59.551 I really enjoyed writing first and I wanted to explore sort of fantastical folk horror again. 96 00:08:00.232 --> 00:08:04.377 And so I just sort of started off by thinking, what are my favourite horror movies, my favourite horror stories? 97 00:08:04.838 --> 00:08:05.058 And... 98 00:08:06.142 --> 00:08:11.787 It's actually less a fantastical thing, but there's an 80s movie called The Thing by John Carpenter. 99 00:08:12.827 --> 00:08:16.811 So it's very much in the territory of science fiction, I guess. 100 00:08:16.851 --> 00:08:23.576 And it's about, if anyone hasn't seen it, it's this very isolated research space in the Antarctic. 101 00:08:23.876 --> 00:08:27.800 And this alien life force gets involved and it's a threat, but... 102 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:29.780 it can mimic people. 103 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:39.103 So rather than looking explicit, I mean, it's quite a grisly film, but the best thing about it is the suspense because you don't often know who the creature has taken the form of. 104 00:08:39.283 --> 00:08:43.944 So there's so much dread and suspense and paranoia that starts to affect all the characters in the story too. 105 00:08:44.645 --> 00:08:46.045 And I loved the film for that. 106 00:08:46.325 --> 00:08:52.367 And I thought, how can I sort of take that and put it in a more fantastical, folkloric, you know, kind of old-time setting? 107 00:08:53.467 --> 00:08:58.228 So I started researching and there's a whole massive history of this fear of doppelgangers. 108 00:08:58.648 --> 00:09:00.809

Obviously there's something quite uncanny about seeing yourself. 109 00:09:01.249 --> 00:09:08.111 I think when mirrors were first invented they used to disturb people and sort of get them thinking about what's really being reflected, what it means. 110 00:09:09.391 --> 00:09:10.891 You sort of face your identity, don't you? 111 00:09:11.351 --> 00:09:22.434 And all those examples you mentioned, Jekyll and Hyde, I realised that looking at the history of reflections of the doppelgangers, there often is the consistent pattern is that what's being reflected is something a darker take upon yourself. 112 00:09:23.074 --> 00:09:32.563 And that very much became a massive theme in the story about what it means to have this dark side, to have these thoughts, whether it's normal, whether it's forgivable to have dark thoughts. 113 00:09:33.422 --> 00:09:35.643 the difference between having them and acting upon them. 114 00:09:36.024 --> 00:09:44.069 So basically just the whole, that theme of doppelgangers and the darker side of yourself, it raises so many interesting questions in terms of exploring yourself and readers exploring themselves. 115 00:09:44.149 --> 00:09:45.910 And so it kind of just rolled from there. 116 00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:47.191 It's a great theme, I think. 117 00:09:47.271 --> 00:09:52.794 And I guess it's not a theme I've come across too often in kind of admitting to that dark side and what might happen with it. 118 00:09:53.215 --> 00:09:57.498 But it's obviously been around, like I've made all these examples, it's an idea that's been around for a long time. 119 00:09:57.718 --> 00:09:59.639 I guess it goes into psychology and all sorts. 120 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:12.238 Yeah, so let's think about the psychology because one of the moment that we all share is when we look at the bathroom mirror and you think, who is that person in the mirror? 121 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:17.463 It's, isn't that a line from a musical? 122 00:10:18.203 --> 00:10:19.023 Yeah, oh yeah. 123 00:10:19.363 --> 00:10:22.144 Well, there's a song in there, Man of the Mirror. 124 00:10:22.184 --> 00:10:23.504 It's a big theme, isn't it? 125 00:10:23.524 --> 00:10:24.565 West Side Story or something. 126 00:10:24.905 --> 00:10:28.065 Anyway, sorry, that's not the right connection. 127 00:10:28.105 --> 00:10:33.927 But we've all had that moment where we look in a mirror and you think, is this how the world sees me? 128 00:10:33.947 --> 00:10:42.189 You're aware that it's reversed, of course, and you're also told no, because it's not quite what people see when they look at you. 129 00:10:43.089 --> 00:10:47.411 And then that is quite easy then to go from that to start thinking, well, what is it saying? 130 00:10:47.431 --> 00:10:53.735 And what if when I moved up my hand, it didn't or, you know, that stuff you're picking up on. 131 00:10:54.415 --> 00:11:00.638 So I think it's a really relatable experience for children that because everyone looks in a mirror. 132 00:11:01.458 --> 00:11:01.819 And yeah. 133 00:11:02.579 --> 00:11:10.381 The psychology of that is, I suppose, a bit like laying on the psychologist's couch and trying to think, what am I like? 134 00:11:10.441 --> 00:11:11.782 What are the urges? 135 00:11:12.242 --> 00:11:14.782 What is the public me versus the private me? 136 00:11:14.862 --> 00:11:15.183 Yeah. 137 00:11:16.203 --> 00:11:23.905 So when you were looking at the likewise idea, likewise being the likewise is the reflected person. 138 00:11:24.485 --> 00:11:29.349 Actually, before we go on actually to talk about psychology, you probably should talk a little bit about the setup of the book. 139 00:11:29.389 --> 00:11:34.053 It will make more sense if you look at enough of the book so people know what we're talking about. 140 00:11:34.652 --> 00:11:35.313 Yeah, sure. 141 00:11:35.353 --> 00:11:39.876 So it's set in a kind of boggy Fenland village called Haramir. 142 00:11:40.517 --> 00:11:45.261 And it's set in a sort of vague pre-industrial time, a very small village, a very close community. 143 00:11:46.242 --> 00:11:47.002 And it's quite dull. 144 00:11:47.022 --> 00:11:50.405 They spend most of their time fishing for eels and harvesting peat and that kind of thing. 145 00:11:50.905 --> 00:11:59.192 And then one day things get a bit spicy because a salesman rolls up with his horse and cart and he's selling something that locals have never seen before ever, mirrors, you know. 146 00:12:00.233 --> 00:12:03.536 And they are dazzled by these wonderful things and the guy's practically giving them away. 147 00:12:04.116 --> 00:12:06.378 So next thing we know, Harame is full of mirrors. 148 00:12:06.398 --> 00:12:08.839 Everyone's got these lovely mirrors in their cottages and houses. 149 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:15.945 And that night at the tavern, three of the main characters, they're called teenagers, called Dun, Hetty and Beer. 150 00:12:15.965 --> 00:12:19.007 They are sat with the salesman at the tavern. 151 00:12:19.487 --> 00:12:25.191 And he mentioned to them a bit of a couple of kinds of magic that can happen with mirrors. 152 00:12:25.211 --> 00:12:27.433 He says, you know, there's rumors about something they can do. 153 00:12:27.453 --> 00:12:29.855 So, for example, if you stand between two of them, you'll see... 154 00:12:30.910 --> 00:12:32.992 eternity, which actually also isn't magic. 155 00:12:33.012 --> 00:12:33.973 We know that that's science. 156 00:12:33.993 --> 00:12:35.994 If you stand between two mirrors, you've probably seen it yourself. 157 00:12:36.054 --> 00:12:37.175 You reflect over and over again. 158 00:12:37.195 --> 00:12:40.278 Always a bit weird to see, but that's what happens. 159 00:12:40.598 --> 00:12:45.783 But then he also says that if you stand between two mirrors like that and say certain lines, if I find those lines quickly... 160 00:12:46.363 --> 00:12:48.465 It's always good to have a little chant or a spell. 161 00:12:49.326 --> 00:12:51.268

Exactly, yeah, the ritual element. 162 00:12:51.348 --> 00:12:54.331 It's had so many traditions as well. 163 00:12:54.451 --> 00:12:58.795 So if you stand between two mirrors and look at yourself and say, like for like, the weird is wise. 164 00:12:59.335 --> 00:13:00.897 Dare you look yourself in the eyes. 165 00:13:01.397 --> 00:13:03.199 Try all you might with airs and lies. 166 00:13:03.379 --> 00:13:04.420 The likewise is cunning. 167 00:13:04.460 --> 00:13:05.541 Your truth is spies. 168 00:13:05.561 --> 00:13:05.701 Yeah. 169 00:13:06.382 --> 00:13:08.162 He says, if you say that, you'll see your true self. 170 00:13:08.883 --> 00:13:14.004 And then he sort of says, actually, forget that, it's probably just nonsense, which kind of makes the kids kind of put them off. 171 00:13:14.064 --> 00:13:16.885 But then he goes, actually, no, no, just don't meddle with these things. 172 00:13:16.925 --> 00:13:17.965 You never know what might happen. 173 00:13:17.985 --> 00:13:19.845 Maybe it's not a good thing to see your true self. 174 00:13:20.025 --> 00:13:23.626 So suddenly it's kind of it's a slightly dangerous thing to do. 175 00:13:23.666 --> 00:13:25.987 So obviously the teens are interested in trying it out again. 176 00:13:26.327 --> 00:13:28.369 It's a figuring fruit, isn't it, at that point? 177 00:13:28.409 --> 00:13:29.010 Exactly. 178 00:13:29.150 --> 00:13:30.031 How can you resist? 179 00:13:30.051 --> 00:13:32.393 You're far more interested in doing it when you say you shouldn't do it, right? 180 00:13:32.433 --> 00:13:34.715 Especially as a teenager, I think. 181 00:13:34.856 --> 00:13:39.600 So that night, these three teens, these friends, they set up two mirrors in the shed behind Hetty's house. 182 00:13:40.281 --> 00:13:44.825 And when they start seeing those lines, after they've had their minds blown by the sort of infinite reflections... 183 00:13:46.687 --> 00:13:52.993 So the wind stops and it gets suddenly darker, suddenly feels off and Bea and Dunn get a bit freaked out. 184 00:13:53.013 --> 00:13:55.316 Maybe she'd leave us to go back to the tavern and join the rest of the party. 185 00:13:55.816 --> 00:13:56.697 I'm not sure about this. 186 00:13:56.717 --> 00:13:58.779 And Hetty is much more pigheaded than that. 187 00:13:58.819 --> 00:13:59.760 She sinks their cow. 188 00:13:59.780 --> 00:14:01.201 So she says, well, she'll see it for herself. 189 00:14:02.122 --> 00:14:04.064 And long story short, she tries that ritual. 190 00:14:04.084 --> 00:14:07.006 And after she says those lines to the mirror, she thinks nothing's happened. 191 00:14:07.026 --> 00:14:08.947 And then she thinks, well, what does it mean anyway to see true self? 192 00:14:09.288 --> 00:14:10.589 I can tell this mirror does that anyway. 193 00:14:11.109 --> 00:14:22.397 But then she notices her most distant reflection, kind of long into the distance in that kind of corridor of Hetty after Hetty after Hetty, starts coming towards her and sort of absorbing all the other reflections on its way. 194 00:14:22.958 --> 00:14:26.080 And when it finally stands in front of her in the mirror, it's doing its own thing. 195 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:27.961 So she's quite unsettled by this, obviously. 196 00:14:28.562 --> 00:14:30.083 And it asks her what her name is. 197 00:14:30.143 --> 00:14:31.244 And she says, oh, it's Hetty. 198 00:14:31.745 --> 00:14:34.788 And then it says, and what is it you desire? 199 00:14:35.328 --> 00:14:36.149 So Hetty has a little think. 200 00:14:36.189 --> 00:14:38.852 She says, well, to leave Haramir when I'm older, it's quite boring around. 201 00:14:38.892 --> 00:14:40.033 I'd like to see the world. 202 00:14:40.794 --> 00:14:44.137 And a reflection shakes its head and says, no, I know what you really want. 203 00:14:44.758 --> 00:14:45.999 And that's kind of the point of the book, in a way. 204 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:47.041 That's the point of the likewise. 205 00:14:47.061 --> 00:14:47.161 Yeah. 206 00:14:47.881 --> 00:15:02.501 And next thing Hessey knows It steps out the reflection And it's got a bit of A fairy tale It's got a fairy tale Style pin A glass pin And it pricks her in the neck And it's obviously It has her form obviously She falls unconscious It tucks her into a sack And hides her away On a meat hook Not her, the sack And 207 00:15:02.721 --> 00:15:04.402 And then it enters her world. 208 00:15:04.442 --> 00:15:06.564 And that's where the imposter format kicks in. 209 00:15:06.584 --> 00:15:20.655 It's a doppelganger that essentially the likewise is a creature that encapsulates all those dark kind of grudges and resentments and dark thoughts that we often bat away or ignore or for the sake of doing the right thing, the moral thing, the thing for society. 210 00:15:21.476 --> 00:15:23.217 The likewise has none of those inhibitions. 211 00:15:23.698 --> 00:15:28.902 And so her reflection is within the community and it does this terrible thing that Hetty would do 212 00:15:29.502 --> 00:15:33.744 a dark part of it might like to do, but doesn't have the courage or the kind of evil nature to do it. 213 00:15:34.605 --> 00:15:37.767 And the thing is, likewise, once it's done that, it makes its way through. 214 00:15:37.787 --> 00:15:39.228 People collect these dark desires. 215 00:15:39.268 --> 00:15:39.988 It collects people. 216 00:15:40.028 --> 00:15:45.111 So someone else gets forced to go through the ritual and the reader and the characters don't know who's been taken. 217 00:15:45.131 --> 00:15:51.655 So one of the points of the book is the reader as well as the characters figure out who the likewise is at the moment. 218 00:15:51.735 --> 00:15:54.256 That's a bit like The Thing I mentioned, that horror film from the 80s. 219 00:15:54.276 --> 00:15:54.917 It's that idea of 220 00:15:55.517 --> 00:15:57.778 the puzzle of, well, this is scary because who actually is? 221 00:15:57.858 --> 00:15:58.738 It could be anyone here. 222 00:15:58.758 -->

00:16:00.138 Who is and when's it going to act? 223 00:16:00.158 --> 00:16:00.919 What's it going to do? 224 00:16:01.899 --> 00:16:09.241 So yeah, long story short, the likewise is an embodiment, a personification of all those kind of dark desires and wishes. 225 00:16:09.301 --> 00:16:11.082 And some of them often we don't even realize we have. 226 00:16:11.142 --> 00:16:18.724 Again, that deeper psychology side of things, there are sides of us that we probably only know a small proportion of who we really are. 227 00:16:18.964 --> 00:16:21.285 Maybe that's why sometimes when we look in the mirrors, we're a bit unsettled or, 228 00:16:22.005 --> 00:16:26.832 Even beyond this, today people see themselves on a camera, on a photo, on a picture on their phone. 229 00:16:26.932 --> 00:16:27.633 And that's not me. 230 00:16:27.653 --> 00:16:29.155 You know, it's like hearing your own voice recorded. 231 00:16:29.175 --> 00:16:29.696 You don't like it. 232 00:16:29.716 --> 00:16:30.257 That's not me. 233 00:16:31.238 --> 00:16:34.022 So I think, yeah, just tap and explore those kind of themes and ideas. 234 00:16:34.869 --> 00:16:51.076 Yes, and I think it's interesting for when there's an element of recovery, when somebody comes back and their likewise has caused harm, it's whether or not they feel shame or responsibility for the act of the likewise. 235 00:16:51.176 --> 00:16:59.760 Because, as you say, we all have the moments where we say, oh, I could kill them for brothers and sisters falling out or all that stuff. 236 00:17:00.760 --> 00:17:01.940 It doesn't mean you'll do it. 237 00:17:03.061 --> 00:17:03.881 No. 238 00:17:04.061 --> 00:17:23.325 Because we have, most of us, very rare occasions when it fails, but most of us have an inner policeman saying all those things, but no, or a moral code or whatever it is, depending what the reaction is. 239 00:17:24.106 --> 00:17:25.466 And I was fascinated by... 240 00:17:26.266 --> 00:17:33.248 I don't want to give too much away, but there are some characters who feel the shame of their inner urges being revealed. 241 00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:40.831 And some people are harmed in ways that it's hard to come back from. 242 00:17:40.951 --> 00:17:47.613 So the person who comes back to the community, can they rejoin the community if their darker urges have been revealed? 243 00:17:48.173 --> 00:17:53.435 I thought that was a very interesting question, which was answered in different ways for different characters. 244 00:17:54.464 --> 00:17:55.064 Yeah, yeah. 245 00:17:55.104 --> 00:17:57.845 Well, it's just like, I mean, it's sort of, I don't really entirely know the answer to myself. 246 00:17:57.905 --> 00:18:00.986 It's quite personal, I guess, in terms of the person and the person who's judging that person. 247 00:18:01.046 --> 00:18:03.367 But yeah, it's interesting. 248 00:18:03.407 --> 00:18:04.768 I mean, how much do you blame someone? 249 00:18:05.508 --> 00:18:13.071 It also raises the question of

when someone does kind of lose that, there's like a sort of societal safety net that stops us. 250 00:18:13.331 --> 00:18:13.511 You know, 251 00:18:14.351 --> 00:18:18.213 It raises, you know, would you, these dark thoughts you have, would you do it if you could get away with it? 252 00:18:18.273 --> 00:18:19.273 Would you actually do it, you know? 253 00:18:20.133 --> 00:18:23.315 Do we stop ourselves doing bad things just because it's what's expected of us? 254 00:18:23.335 --> 00:18:25.275 You know, what is, is this a nature nurture thing? 255 00:18:25.335 --> 00:18:26.156 Are we born bad? 256 00:18:26.176 --> 00:18:26.976 Are we born good? 257 00:18:27.816 --> 00:18:32.818 It just, again, I don't know the answer to these things, but the story seemed like a great way to explore these ideas. 258 00:18:32.918 --> 00:18:37.660 And again, it's, I also researched some psychology to feed into it. 259 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.882 And because, you know, these ideas have been reflected in, well, reflected, no pun intended, 260 00:18:42.422 --> 00:18:45.366 in fairy tales and fantasy and folklore for a long time. 261 00:18:45.426 --> 00:18:49.570 And I think it tapped into, you know, Freud talking about the id and the ego and the super ego. 262 00:18:50.371 --> 00:18:54.356 I read about Carl Jung and the shadow self, you know, it's kind of the side of yourself that... 263 00:18:54.696 --> 00:19:01.023 I think another thing the book explores, the side of yourself that you don't quite... You're not aware is there, but it has a massive profound impact on who you are and what you do. 264 00:19:01.063 --> 00:19:02.585 And I think also... 265 00:19:04.115 --> 00:19:10.598 You know, I think the book isn't another theme of the book is the fact that this shadow self, for example, this side of yourself you don't know. 266 00:19:10.938 --> 00:19:12.119 Maybe it's not all bad. 267 00:19:12.139 --> 00:19:16.621 You know, I think that sometimes creativity or life decisions can come from this side of ourselves. 268 00:19:16.641 --> 00:19:18.522 We don't really comprehend. 269 00:19:18.622 --> 00:19:21.263 So, again, it's just I just it's the same with all my books. 270 00:19:21.283 --> 00:19:23.304 I tend to be better questions than answers, really. 271 00:19:24.159 --> 00:19:31.824 Yes, and I think that when we're thinking about you writing for children, there is an element of extra responsibility when we're writing for children. 272 00:19:32.245 --> 00:19:36.127 And one thing the book does say is that you can overcome this. 273 00:19:37.228 --> 00:19:44.493 It's a quote about, you know, you read fantasy not for the monsters, but to be told that you can overcome the monsters. 274 00:19:46.034 --> 00:19:47.075 That's the message of it. 275 00:19:48.636 --> 00:19:50.237 You know, good guys kind of win. 276 00:19:50.257 --> 00:19:52.599 It's not like everybody's fine, but there is a sense of... 277 00:19:55.021 --> 00:19:57.203 you don't give in to the shadow cells. 278 00:19:57.223 --> 00:20:02.387 The world doesn't become the shadow version if you stand up against it. 279 00:20:03.067 --> 00:20:11.194 But it does take a society, or in that case, a little village, to stand up to it and sort of take it seriously and believe what they're being told. 280 00:20:11.254 --> 00:20:14.036 So there's a sort of group effort to combat it. 281 00:20:14.916 --> 00:20:30.924 So when you were thinking about this for children or perhaps when you're talking to young readers who might be worried about the completely natural bad thoughts we all have, how would you craft an answer about that? 282 00:20:30.944 --> 00:20:31.865 Have you thought about that? 283 00:20:45.770 --> 00:20:48.952 I think it's one of the things that's healthy to face and accept a little bit. 284 00:20:49.012 --> 00:20:59.519 I think, you know, because some people might have bad thoughts and feel really guilty about it, you know, and it can have quite a negative impact perhaps. 285 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:12.428 I think to acknowledge these things rather than to ignore them or deny them and to also appreciate the quality of, you know, I mean, never having them is – I think having them and conquering them is more important than never having them in the first place, perhaps. 286 00:21:12.448 --> 00:21:15.010 I think it maybe says a lot about being a person, being part of community – 287 00:21:15.550 --> 00:21:25.738 Because that's where goodness – I'd like to say goodness is kind of rooted in who we are, but a big part of it is kind of what's expected of us and it's about the people we love, you know. 288 00:21:27.099 --> 00:21:36.366 So, yeah, when children ask about this, I do – basically, it might be my point of view, but I think we all have these dark thoughts. 289 00:21:36.386 --> 00:21:37.286 We have these moments. 290 00:21:37.366 --> 00:21:37.667 Yeah. 291 00:21:38.167 --> 00:21:42.328 And this darkness might come from vulnerability as well and bad experiences, you know. 292 00:21:42.829 --> 00:21:51.251 But the key thing is, I'd say it's normal to have them, but it's healthy to recognize them and obviously good to avoid them. 293 00:21:51.731 --> 00:21:56.833 Explore where they come from, why they're there, maybe address that rather than acting out in a negative way, you know. 294 00:21:56.953 --> 00:22:02.475 So it's just all about sort of exploring your own personality and the healthiness of acceptance, perhaps. 295 00:22:03.395 --> 00:22:05.238 Yeah, and I think also that you're not alone. 296 00:22:06.340 --> 00:22:10.526 Our characters are not who we are on our own, facing a mirror. 297 00:22:10.946 --> 00:22:13.771 Our character is who we are when we're amongst other people. 298 00:22:14.432 --> 00:22:16.955 And very often it's other people who help us. 299 00:22:18.237 --> 00:22:23.201 behave or say, I don't want to make you unhappy or I love you. 300 00:22:23.381 --> 00:22:34.250 Or there's the connections around us is what forms the moral

code or the ethical code, whatever it is, however you would like to talk about that. 301 00:22:34.971 --> 00:22:38.674 So it's not that moment in the mirror when we're at our weakest. 302 00:22:39.034 --> 00:22:42.137 It's how we are out with others, I would have thought. 303 00:22:42.757 --> 00:22:45.079 So you mentioned here about sort of fairy tales, 304 00:22:46.546 --> 00:22:57.212 and myths dipping into this sense of what the 20th century psychologists were calling things like the shadow self and all the rest of it. 305 00:22:58.053 --> 00:23:06.978 When you're looking at myths, there was only particular ones that you were attracted to because when you go back to classical myths, there's all sorts of like narcissus looking in at his own reflection. 306 00:23:07.479 --> 00:23:07.739 Yeah. 307 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:09.019 Well, interestingly, yeah. 308 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.522 So, I mean, there's this, obviously, we've spoken quite a bit about this, um, 309 00:23:13.682 --> 00:23:16.184 seeing a part of yourself that maybe you wouldn't want to see. 310 00:23:16.204 --> 00:23:18.425 But I think, yeah, vanity is a big part of mirrors, isn't it? 311 00:23:18.465 --> 00:23:22.467 And the dangers of that, which, I mean, that's obviously been an issue forever. 312 00:23:22.487 --> 00:23:26.589 And, you know, the damage it can do to be expected to look a certain way. 313 00:23:27.270 --> 00:23:32.933 And so, yeah, I think, yeah, narcissists, yeah, this kind of idea has been around for a long time. 314 00:23:33.013 --> 00:23:40.016 And going to sort of fairy tales beyond that, there's obviously Snow White with the Queen Asking who's the fairest of them all and kind of, 315 00:23:41.097 --> 00:23:44.581 driven to doing bad things for the sake of being, you know, the first of them all. 316 00:23:45.662 --> 00:23:53.351 So I think, yeah, Maru's speak a lot in terms of, yeah, to the dangers of vanity and the effects they have on us, which has parallels. 317 00:23:53.411 --> 00:23:59.718 And that's quite contemporary too, when you think about filters on Instagram and social media and stuff, you know, that vanity and that 318 00:24:00.038 --> 00:24:03.221 pressure is kind of more online now than it is on mirrors. 319 00:24:03.621 --> 00:24:05.082 And that's another thing I enjoy about writing this book. 320 00:24:05.102 --> 00:24:11.228 I think even though it's obviously very sort of fantastical and folklore-ish, it's also, I think those themes still really resonate. 321 00:24:11.308 --> 00:24:15.211 And those ideas about mirrors and doppelgangers, they're still relevant today. 322 00:24:17.092 --> 00:24:18.213 I think very much so. 323 00:24:18.253 --> 00:24:20.094 I mean, many of us use our phones as a mirror. 324 00:24:20.854 --> 00:24:21.294 Absolutely. 325 00:24:21.415 --> 00:24:22.095 Black mirror, yeah. 326 00:24:22.235 --> 00:24:27.458 I'm on a train checking, you know, I don't look right when I get off the train. 327 00:24:27.518 --> 00:24:29.800 I use my phone as a mirror these days. 328 00:24:30.020 --> 00:24:30.560 Yeah, yeah. 329 00:24:31.180 --> 00:24:32.001 So you're quite right. 330 00:24:33.120 --> 00:24:40.202 But maybe it's also the aspect of people crafting selves for the Instagram self type thing. 331 00:24:40.342 --> 00:24:46.383 And then the shadow or the maybe our real selves have become in some of us a shadow self. 332 00:24:46.903 --> 00:24:50.204 If you're living so much out there, what's left behind? 333 00:24:50.344 --> 00:24:53.825 I often worry about people who put so much of themselves... 334 00:24:55.617 --> 00:24:57.178 out there because that's the pressure. 335 00:24:57.738 --> 00:25:05.122 I mean, I don't know if you've been given the pressure as an author to keep on, you know, keep the social media stuff. 336 00:25:05.142 --> 00:25:11.085 But I'm very keen to have, I'm only really out here in my author professional... 337 00:25:11.505 --> 00:25:11.705 Yes, yes. 338 00:25:13.063 --> 00:25:19.666 I don't talk about family news or political views or anything like that, if I can help it. 339 00:25:19.746 --> 00:25:22.827 It's all me writing and culture. 340 00:25:24.688 --> 00:25:33.012 That's my cutout of me that I want out there because I want to keep that stuff out of the mirror. 341 00:25:33.748 --> 00:25:34.549 Yes, absolutely. 342 00:25:34.569 --> 00:25:35.569 Yeah, I mean, I'm similar. 343 00:25:35.690 --> 00:25:39.272 I mean, I never sort of share pictures of my children. 344 00:25:39.292 --> 00:25:46.337 I might have the occasional thing with my wife, but mostly it's just book-related things kind of within the industry and my own writing. 345 00:25:46.358 --> 00:25:51.842 But, you know, when you think about people presenting on YouTube and Instagram, 346 00:25:52.422 --> 00:25:59.008 I thought your point was interesting about the real self becomes the shadow self because you are sort of creating the reflection you almost want to see, aren't you? 347 00:26:00.029 --> 00:26:07.875 Also, in terms of the personality as well, there's a kind of weird Dorian Gray parallel where there's something being presented that's the beautiful picture. 348 00:26:07.915 --> 00:26:10.577 Maybe there's something behind it that's not so perfect. 349 00:26:11.538 --> 00:26:14.680 And so, yeah, again, it's just, yeah, reflections and doppelgangers. 350 00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:20.822 They just, they just, they raise so many questions about ourselves and having to face ourselves and what we want to see in the mirror. 351 00:26:21.162 --> 00:26:26.065 Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, you know, you see a lot of damage done today on so many young people. 352 00:26:26.145 --> 00:26:29.286 And well, people of all ages because of that pressure to be a certain way online. 353 00:26:29.326 --> 00:26:33.348 And yeah, it taps into fears that are pretty ancient by the sounds of it. 354 00:26:34.168 --> 00:26:46.811 I did actually write a book a while ago now called Mel Foster and the

Queen's Butler, where it's a kind of comic, Victoriana story, with fictional characters are sort of real in this world. 355 00:26:47.711 --> 00:26:58.894 And the sort of plot device being used was they'd managed to capture whatever the potion was that created the Dorian Gray picture. 356 00:26:59.834 --> 00:27:03.755 And they were using it to animate portraits of people. 357 00:27:06.196 --> 00:27:20.144 for the forces of evil were sort of, you know, so you go to a big cavalry picture and you get all the cavalry out on your side, but you could go to the picture of the queen or whoever, and the shadow queen would now be on your side, which was playing with this idea. 358 00:27:20.164 --> 00:27:24.467 I'd totally forgotten about that because I was fascinated by this idea how the... 359 00:27:26.317 --> 00:27:33.867 the shadow self can step into the role of being the real self and sort of take care of that. 360 00:27:34.067 --> 00:27:36.410 So I think it's really good fun. 361 00:27:36.450 --> 00:27:37.491 That's a comic story. 362 00:27:37.892 --> 00:27:41.236 Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. 363 00:27:41.256 --> 00:27:44.100 Sort of, yeah, comedy version of this. 364 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:53.846 Okay, so we're thinking about the longevity of the sort of the mirror plot, the double in Mists and Legends. 365 00:27:53.866 --> 00:28:02.711 But we were talking just before we came online that, of course, these days we have the next stage of this, which is looking forward. 366 00:28:02.731 --> 00:28:07.514 We've got already the idea of clones, the kind of Blade Runner stuff. 367 00:28:08.774 --> 00:28:14.461 idea of when is something a replicant, when is something real? 368 00:28:14.902 --> 00:28:22.371 And of course, AI, us being cloned in some way by AI and likenesses being used and... 369 00:28:24.659 --> 00:28:29.444 not being able to tell if a generated video is the real person or not. 370 00:28:29.524 --> 00:28:40.133 I know that in the last elections in America, there were a lot of short ads people were running where they generated images of their political opponents doing things they don't do. 371 00:28:41.054 --> 00:28:41.994 And nobody is saying... 372 00:28:42.855 --> 00:28:44.736 hey, stop doing this. 373 00:28:44.876 --> 00:28:47.098 They're all just going, ha, ha, ha, isn't that funny? 374 00:28:47.478 --> 00:28:48.718 And I think that's really worrying. 375 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:59.405 I think we need to be able to, if someone did that to me, please don't do this folks out there listening to this, I'd be really cross because I'm me, not this favorite version of me. 376 00:28:59.505 --> 00:29:04.808 So I think there's a whole area we're about to, we're in, not about to go in, we are in it. 377 00:29:05.546 --> 00:29:11.389 It's one of those things where the tech is so far ahead of the law and the consent issue, isn't it? 378 00:29:11.429 --> 00:29:22.114 I mean, yeah, people would need to give consent to have their likeness used in those sort of ways, but people either have fun or for malicious reasons and also horrible reasons are creating those doppelgangers and manipulating them. 379 00:29:22.774 --> 00:29:23.975 So, yeah, you're right. 380 00:29:23.995 --> 00:29:26.956 That raises a lot of interesting questions too. 381 00:29:27.296 --> 00:29:33.119 It's fascinating one to raise in a school situation because this is the tech they're going to be growing up with. 382 00:29:33.600 --> 00:29:34.340 Yeah, yeah. 383 00:29:35.521 --> 00:29:36.281 Yeah, it's true. 384 00:29:36.741 --> 00:29:38.842 I think also, I mean, look at the trend in horror films at the minute. 385 00:29:38.862 --> 00:29:43.064 There's a lot of ones about fake people like Dole. 386 00:29:43.084 --> 00:29:44.984 You know, like, yeah, Android. 387 00:29:45.004 --> 00:29:45.625 What was it? 388 00:29:45.645 --> 00:29:48.066 There's Megan that came out a while back and the sequel to that. 389 00:29:49.206 --> 00:29:51.227 And that probably taps into that uncanny element as well. 390 00:29:51.627 --> 00:29:54.548 But, yeah, it's a really, really rich area, isn't it? 391 00:29:54.608 --> 00:29:59.270 I think there's so much symbolism there and there's so many real issues and real threats. 392 00:30:00.750 --> 00:30:02.451 Yeah, so much to play with, really. 393 00:30:04.032 --> 00:30:07.435 Right, so I'm going to move you on from – it's a massive area. 394 00:30:07.455 --> 00:30:07.655 It is. 395 00:30:07.695 --> 00:30:13.180 I hope you've found out writing about this because I think about six plots have come up during our conversation. 396 00:30:14.362 --> 00:30:19.947 Anyway, the other thing that's notable about your book is the use of a very powerful landscape. 397 00:30:19.967 --> 00:30:23.410 It's got that – again, it's something from a kind of horror film. 398 00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:25.972 In fact, there's a film just out at the moment which isn't a horror film. 399 00:30:26.012 --> 00:30:28.454 It's more of a fairy tale called Wicca. 400 00:30:29.255 --> 00:30:30.136 I've heard of that. 401 00:30:30.156 --> 00:30:31.678 Yes, it looks good. 402 00:30:32.018 --> 00:30:41.350 But it sounds like in a similar archetypal sort of, you know, oldie-woldie village in a powerful landscape. 403 00:30:41.410 --> 00:30:47.997 I mean, it's a really good setting because you get a keen sense of the weather and the climate and the weather. 404 00:30:48.638 --> 00:30:53.319 and the harshness of life, but you're not specifically tied to anywhere. 405 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.980 So tell me a bit about your marshland. 406 00:30:57.060 --> 00:31:02.582 I was thinking of the sort of, the fens up beyond Cambridge. 407 00:31:03.122 --> 00:31:03.382 Yes. 408 00:31:03.622 --> 00:31:06.923 Which is in, if listeners are thinking of a map, you know, 409 00:31:07.923 --> 00:31:25.955 uh where england has a sort of bump like i don't know on the east there's an area of low land called the wash and the area just south of that and around that is very

marshy so tell us about your inspiration for the landscape 410 00:31:26.788 --> 00:31:34.091 I did do a lot of research on the fens and drawing from that, especially how people used to live there, in small communities on that very tricky landscape. 411 00:31:34.111 --> 00:31:42.635 I mean, it all started off with, I'd written first and very much in the traditional folk horror that's largely set in a forest in a very picturesque small village. 412 00:31:43.396 --> 00:31:45.217 And I thought, I don't want to do the forest again. 413 00:31:45.237 --> 00:31:49.459 So I was just looking at interesting landscapes around Britain and beyond. 414 00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:57.586 I think when I started coming across wetlands and fens, they caught my eyes just being very distinctive. 415 00:31:57.606 --> 00:32:01.509 I think all the fog lends itself well to atmosphere. 416 00:32:01.529 --> 00:32:04.792 It just seemed like quite a neat place to evoke because it's so distinctive. 417 00:32:04.812 --> 00:32:07.915 All the smells of peat and it's just been so soggy and damp. 418 00:32:08.295 --> 00:32:09.256 But beautiful too. 419 00:32:09.516 --> 00:32:13.320 Obviously, there's all the water everywhere, all the pools and that stuff. 420 00:32:13.560 --> 00:32:15.221 It ties into the theme of reflections. 421 00:32:16.161 --> 00:32:21.164 It might seem soggy and grim, but also it's, you know, think about the sunsets reflecting. 422 00:32:21.204 --> 00:32:26.126 I looked at lots of photos of the fens and the waters reflecting the sunsets and how beautiful it was. 423 00:32:26.246 --> 00:32:30.268 And you get very distinctive wildlife there of all the herons and all the, you know, 424 00:32:30.748 --> 00:32:32.168 all the different types of fish and eels. 425 00:32:32.268 --> 00:32:36.750 So it just lent itself really easily to the atmosphere I needed for the story. 426 00:32:37.330 --> 00:32:47.392 And I did a lot of research into communities that used to live in the Fens in pre-industrial tribes and they were particularly close-knit because it was such a difficult place to live. 427 00:32:47.772 --> 00:32:52.733 A lot of people, outsiders beyond those villages on the Fens, just didn't understand why anyone would want to live there. 428 00:32:52.873 --> 00:32:54.714 It was so difficult and grim and wet. 429 00:32:55.594 --> 00:33:11.094 And it kind of meant there was a sort of slightly outsider element that made the community very close-knit, which lends itself well to a story in which a very close-to-community, like in Likewise, is starting to fall apart a little bit because they are the paranoia that starts spreading and the mistrust and all the grudges everyone's thinking about. 430 00:33:11.895 --> 00:33:13.837 So, yeah, I think research on the fence, it was fascinating. 431 00:33:14.157 --> 00:33:15.458 I mean, a lot of it's been drained now. 432 00:33:15.478 --> 00:33:18.341 It's changed quite a lot, but it used to be obviously much more watery. 433 00:33:18.361 --> 00:33:28.230 And I learned about, for example, how windmills and pumps were imported from the Dutch because they were the masters of kind of transforming wet landscapes. 434 00:33:28.850 --> 00:33:30.972 And there was an equivalent of the Luddites. 435 00:33:30.992 --> 00:33:33.915 I think they're called the Tigers or something, the Fenland Tigers. 436 00:33:34.335 --> 00:33:36.657 And they'd go smashing up the pumps, you know, to try and... 437 00:33:37.338 --> 00:33:58.878 sustain their way of life to keep it going to resist this resist progress you know in speech marks so yeah it's just a fascinating so basically the landscape the nature there the the animals and the plant life lends itself really well to something very atmospheric and visual and vivid but also the history and the community works really well for the sort of story with which yeah a community is being tested i guess they didn't want anyone to drain the swamp 438 00:33:59.492 --> 00:34:05.740 No, they didn't, no, because they went around on stilts and they fished for eels and it was a hard way of life. 439 00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:08.483 It was their way of life and it was kind of what they were used to. 440 00:34:08.523 --> 00:34:15.491 And again, I remember when I early drafted the book, it was a bit, some of it felt a bit grim because it is so wet and soggy and damp and foggy. 441 00:34:15.531 --> 00:34:17.874 So I kind of really put a lot of effort into... 442 00:34:18.675 --> 00:34:32.583 bringing out the beauty of the place, really sort of showing what locals actually like about the place, you know, how good the eel pies are and, you know, how there's so much affection for the plant life and the herons and the symbolism of the herons and the, you know. 443 00:34:32.603 --> 00:34:38.266 So, yeah, it is grim, it's boggy and it's foggy, but it's also, there's a lot of beauty there, which, you know, 444 00:34:38.886 --> 00:34:45.850 I've just thought this now, but kind of a reflection of people as well, the theme of people and their good and their bad sides, you know, how everyone's complex and the landscape's complex. 445 00:34:45.910 --> 00:34:48.631 And, you know, there's a reflection back and forth there, you know. 446 00:34:49.331 --> 00:34:50.992 And it's a liminal place. 447 00:34:51.092 --> 00:34:51.693 Absolutely. 448 00:34:51.713 --> 00:34:55.316 I mean, this is why it's a redolent story. 449 00:34:55.736 --> 00:35:04.142 And the other thing that I think of with the Fens is it has a tradition of independence and sort of rebellion. 450 00:35:04.242 --> 00:35:12.509 So Harry with the Wake was one of the famous kind of folk resistance heroes who tried to stand up against the kings of the day. 451 00:35:13.289 --> 00:35:17.753 And going back before that, you've got Alfred the Great when he was at his lowest moment. 452 00:35:18.913 --> 00:35:26.278 He went and hid in the Fenlands around Somerset, which is another sort of area of low-lying ground. 453

00:35:26.678 --> 00:35:41.888 And that's where the famous burning of the cakes story happened, is when he was staying with somebody there and the good wife boxed him around the ears for not keeping an eye on her cakes because that's a lot of resources that she's got and he's just wasted. 454 00:35:41.928 --> 00:35:44.370 So some people think that's a... 455 00:35:45.050 --> 00:36:14.417 symbolic story but I like to think there is this crotchety old lady who said oi you may be losing the kingdom but you shouldn't lose my fakes well yeah so it was a place where people retreated to it was very hard to invade you can't drive a railway through it and that kind of thing so that's true it has that element of which adds to the character you're building of this independent community that they rely on themselves suspicious of outsiders and they also can protect themselves draw you know 456 00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:18.023 they're the ones who know their landscape. 457 00:36:18.685 --> 00:36:18.865 Yeah. 458 00:36:19.406 --> 00:36:19.727 Yeah. 459 00:36:19.767 --> 00:36:21.731 So no, I thought that was very powerful. 460 00:36:23.374 --> 00:36:24.596 It's a character in the story. 461 00:36:25.370 --> 00:36:27.931 Yeah, I always aim for that with most of my books. 462 00:36:28.591 --> 00:36:32.673 And it's funny, you mentioned the Lindenmore Space element, because obviously, yeah, it's not quite land, it's not quite water. 463 00:36:32.713 --> 00:36:36.035 It's kind of this mix of, it's a place that's hard to pin down. 464 00:36:36.895 --> 00:36:47.640 And again, in terms of the magic system used in Thirst and Likewise, they're not, Likewise isn't a sequel to Thirst at all, but it's set very much in the same sort of fictional county, and it draws upon that same... 465 00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:52.802 idea of, in terms of the magic system, it's all about that liminality, those thin spaces. 466 00:36:52.862 --> 00:37:04.087 And I think mirrors themselves are the sort of thing we've been talking about so far, about reflecting something that's not quite there and drawing a line between yourself and what's being reflected, all these questions. 467 00:37:04.247 --> 00:37:11.130 They create a little more space within themselves, I think, which is why the mirror lent itself well to the character of the likewise and for the idea of the story itself. 468 00:37:11.630 --> 00:37:17.854 And I think, I haven't mentioned, of course, yet a more modern bit of folklore, but obviously Bloody Mary comes into it very readily. 469 00:37:17.874 --> 00:37:23.438 And I've noticed when I do school visits around, likewise, everyone still does Bloody Mary. 470 00:37:23.458 --> 00:37:26.300 I don't know if you noticed it when you were younger, but in my teens I did it. 471 00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:30.163 And all the kids are still getting their candles and trying Bloody Mary in front of mirrors. 472 00:37:30.223 --> 00:37:32.905 Is that why you summon them by saying the name a number of times?

473 00:37:32.965 --> 00:37:33.385 Is that the thing? 474 00:37:33.405 --> 00:37:34.306 Yeah, so you stand in front of them. 475 00:37:34.346 --> 00:37:36.107 It wasn't part of mine, but I don't know. 476 00:37:36.567 --> 00:37:38.070 I remember a lot of my friends trying it. 477 00:37:38.190 --> 00:37:45.481 And it's one of those things where you're a teenager and you're like, yeah, if you light a candle and say Bloody Mary's name three times, she'll appear in the mirror and drag you into hell or whatever, you know. 478 00:37:45.501 --> 00:37:45.601 Okay. 479 00:37:45.621 --> 00:37:47.504 And it's one of those things that no one believes it. 480 00:37:47.524 --> 00:37:51.751 But when you actually start trying it with your mates, suddenly you are a bit more scared than you like to admit. 481 00:37:52.011 --> 00:38:15.498 blow out the candle yeah that's it it feels very 80s to me it feels very like from my childhood and my teens but a lot of the kids they still know Bloody Mary and I think a lot of that kind of folklore actually travels a lot online now anyway and these ideas so they come across it through memes and various trends and things but it's nice that these kind of this suspicion of reflections this kind of slight mistrust it's still there I think yeah 482 00:38:17.032 --> 00:38:17.332 Wow. 483 00:38:17.652 --> 00:38:20.734 So this is out now, is it, likewise? 484 00:38:21.334 --> 00:38:21.814 It is out. 485 00:38:21.834 --> 00:38:22.675 Yeah, it's out and about now. 486 00:38:22.695 --> 00:38:23.415 Yeah, that's right. 487 00:38:23.495 --> 00:38:24.936 So where are you going next? 488 00:38:25.016 --> 00:38:31.919 Are you staying in the same area for your next story or are you heading on past as new? 489 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.121 Well, I've got something sort of pretty much in the bag coming out next week. 490 00:38:36.342 --> 00:38:51.955 Autumn anyway so it's not the same sort of historical folk horror but it is more contemporary take so it's actually a collaboration with, there's an illustrator called Keith Robinson and we've got a book coming out together called Strange Blooms Next Autumn and it's a hybrid novel, it's a 491 00:38:53.577 --> 00:38:56.339 it's a quite intricate mix of prose. 492 00:38:56.379 --> 00:39:00.783 So it's not quite graphic novels, more of a kind of playful mix of prose and illustration. 493 00:39:01.724 --> 00:39:05.167 And sometimes there'll be, the prose will take over, sometimes it'll be the text illustrations. 494 00:39:05.607 --> 00:39:08.049 Sometimes they will blend and do, interact in unusual ways. 495 00:39:08.710 --> 00:39:11.713 So we've been working on that for quite a while, well, years now, thinking about it. 496 00:39:11.753 --> 00:39:12.693 And that's coming out next week. 497 00:39:13.474 --> 00:39:14.035 September. 498 00:39:14.115 --> 00:39:16.238 And that is a folk horror story, but it's more contemporary. 499 00:39:16.278 --> 00:39:20.724 So if you imagine Skegness meets Witches, you

know, it's kind of this kind of vibe. 500 00:39:20.824 --> 00:39:22.607 So it's got that going on. 501 00:39:22.627 --> 00:39:23.408 But having said that, 502 00:39:23.973 --> 00:39:27.994 I am interested in revisiting this fictional county of Likewise and Thirst. 503 00:39:28.435 --> 00:39:33.196 I wasn't sure because I was quite spent after writing Likewise, but I've had such a good time doing it. 504 00:39:33.216 --> 00:39:35.757 I've seen such a positive reaction from young readers. 505 00:39:36.177 --> 00:39:39.599 There's a real hunger for kind of what these stories offer, it seems. 506 00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:43.140 And as you mentioned at the minute, there's quite a blatant trend in the cinemas and so on. 507 00:39:43.160 --> 00:39:44.500 Yeah, sorry, gosh. 508 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:46.621 So it seems to have kind of touched a nerve. 509 00:39:46.641 --> 00:39:48.862 And I think, again, that fantastical folkloric aspect, 510 00:39:49.682 --> 00:39:56.025 seems popular with young people as well, perhaps as a reaction against things being so digital, being so deepfake. 511 00:39:56.085 --> 00:39:59.147 You know, young people seem to be more interested. 512 00:39:59.387 --> 00:40:07.652 Not all of them, obviously, but in folklore and nature and strangeness and the analogue, I think maybe these things are all tied together in some sort of way. 513 00:40:07.712 --> 00:40:12.954 So, yeah, long story short, as the question, I would like to revisit this. 514 00:40:12.975 --> 00:40:16.596 I'm not quite sure where I'd go next, but I've got a few things brewing that might work out, I think. 515 00:40:16.616 --> 00:40:17.957 Yes, or something will bubble up. 516 00:40:18.678 --> 00:40:19.138 Hopefully. 517 00:40:19.758 --> 00:40:28.185 So we try and finish with a little sort of thought about where in all the fantasy worlds we would like to go for something. 518 00:40:28.385 --> 00:40:40.755 And I wanted to pose the question to you, where in all the fantasy worlds, not your own, but other people's, would you like to go and experience, interact with a magic mirror? 519 00:40:42.116 --> 00:40:43.617 You can tell me where you don't want to go. 520 00:40:43.637 --> 00:40:46.700 Actually, when you start to think about it, 521 00:40:47.652 --> 00:40:48.873 There are quite a few of them. 522 00:40:49.353 --> 00:40:53.476 We've already mentioned Snow White and the Mirror Mirror on the Wall. 523 00:40:53.496 --> 00:40:55.317 No, that's one. 524 00:40:56.358 --> 00:41:09.547 And another one I thought of was at the beginning of The Snow Queen, there's a broken, a shattered glass that lodges in Kay's heart and turns him cold and wicked. 525 00:41:09.567 --> 00:41:12.509 And that definitely has a sort of the other side. 526 00:41:12.529 --> 00:41:14.570 That's the doppelganger aspect here. 527 00:41:14.770 --> 00:41:16.291 There's something going on there, isn't there? 528 00:41:16.812 --> 00:41:17.012 Yeah. 529 00:41:19.073 --> 00:41:25.157 And in more fun aspect

is the most famous of them all, which isn't horror. 530 00:41:25.317 --> 00:41:26.818 That's Alice Through the Looking Glass. 531 00:41:27.058 --> 00:41:27.898 Of course, yeah. 532 00:41:28.419 --> 00:41:34.122 Which is, have I missed, I'm bound to have missed some, um... 533 00:41:34.442 --> 00:41:35.082 There'll be lots. 534 00:41:35.102 --> 00:41:35.763 I can't think of it. 535 00:41:35.823 --> 00:41:37.003 I'm trying to go top of my head. 536 00:41:39.004 --> 00:41:42.446 Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting because it does... 537 00:41:43.966 --> 00:41:48.068 It's like a sort of whimsical use of mirrors to sort of reflect... 538 00:41:48.828 --> 00:41:51.750 I don't know, it's like to reflect the absurdity of the real in a way, isn't it? 539 00:41:51.770 --> 00:41:55.171 I think that's what goes on in that from what I remember, which is interesting too. 540 00:41:55.211 --> 00:41:58.573 So yeah, holding from mirrors to the world and someone's seeing how absurd things are in that sort of way. 541 00:41:59.273 --> 00:42:10.838 I think in terms of a mirror I would like, I guess another fairy tale, doesn't Sleeping Beauty have a mirror that sort of shows, I'm sure the Queen of Sleeping Beauty is able to use a mirror to see things that she wants to be shown. 542 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:14.240 So that sounds quite a hand, doesn't it? 543 00:42:14.660 --> 00:42:18.561 It's almost like mirrors were the kind of smartphones or tablets of their time. 544 00:42:19.142 --> 00:42:23.303 You could use them for information and to find out what's going on and stuff. 545 00:42:23.343 --> 00:42:26.844 And, you know, it's like Googling who's the fairest of them all. 546 00:42:27.345 --> 00:42:30.906 So, yeah, I think we'd be quite happy to have a Sleeping Beauty. 547 00:42:30.946 --> 00:42:34.647 You should try that this afternoon, put it into Google. 548 00:42:34.687 --> 00:42:36.228 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 549 00:42:36.628 --> 00:42:38.328 There is another one, which is a cursed one. 550 00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:39.409 It's the Lady of Shalott's. 551 00:42:40.096 --> 00:42:40.918 I don't know that. 552 00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:45.647 Yeah, so she is able to look at the world out through a mirror. 553 00:42:47.238 --> 00:42:48.579 It's obviously in the Tennyson poem. 554 00:42:49.120 --> 00:42:54.304 So she can see what's going on outside and she sees a knight riding by. 555 00:42:54.324 --> 00:42:59.168 The willows white and the aspens quiver, the little breezes dusk and shiver. 556 00:42:59.528 --> 00:43:03.852 And she's attracted to the Lancelot riding by. 557 00:43:04.292 --> 00:43:08.295 She left the web, she left the loom, she made three paces through the room. 558 00:43:08.615 --> 00:43:09.576 She saw the water... 559 00:43:10.757 --> 00:43:15.981 water lily bloom and then it has the famous line, the mirror cracked from side to side. 560 00:43:16.321 --> 00:43:19.463 The curse has come upon me, cried the lady of shallots. 561 00:43:19.764 --> 00:43:20.804 And

that's why she dies. 562 00:43:20.824 --> 00:43:21.405 Right. 563 00:43:21.565 --> 00:43:26.629 Because she's looked out on the real world where she was embroidering the reflection. 564 00:43:27.469 --> 00:43:28.209 So there you go. 565 00:43:28.229 --> 00:43:29.810 There's a bit of Tennyson for you. 566 00:43:30.550 --> 00:43:35.912 But that line, the mirror cracked from side to side, then was used by, I think, Agatha Christie as a book title. 567 00:43:37.333 --> 00:43:38.774 So that's a rather powerful mirror. 568 00:43:39.434 --> 00:43:47.417 So the one I would choose to go for is, of course, the Lewis Carroll one because that's not cursed. 569 00:43:48.257 --> 00:43:54.200 You get talking plants and chess pieces and Tweedledum and Tweedledee. 570 00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:57.021 It's pretty benign what goes on through the mirror there. 571 00:43:57.515 --> 00:44:00.356 The idea of mirrors as doorways, isn't it? 572 00:44:00.376 --> 00:44:01.197 I guess as portals. 573 00:44:01.517 --> 00:44:04.098 I'm sure there's some mirror action somewhere in the Narnia series. 574 00:44:04.118 --> 00:44:04.858 There's got to be. 575 00:44:04.878 --> 00:44:06.379 I've got a thing in every summer, but I can't. 576 00:44:06.799 --> 00:44:09.641 It's on the tip of my tongue, but I'm sure I'll come across that somewhere. 577 00:44:09.661 --> 00:44:20.166 The way you get into Narnia is rings, wardrobe, horn, picture, being blown off a cliff. 578 00:44:20.906 --> 00:44:21.186 Right. 579 00:44:22.307 --> 00:44:23.007 By Aslan. 580 00:44:24.468 --> 00:44:27.069 And what's the last one? 581 00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:30.321 A train accident. 582 00:44:30.961 --> 00:44:32.542 Right, okay. 583 00:44:33.083 --> 00:44:34.884 There may be a mirror in there somewhere. 584 00:44:35.244 --> 00:44:44.470 There's definitely an echo of the Snow Queen in the way Eustace is sort of shown a distorted vision of his family life. 585 00:44:44.490 --> 00:44:46.331 But I don't think he needs a mirror. 586 00:44:46.351 --> 00:44:49.493 The method there is Turkish delight. 587 00:44:50.153 --> 00:44:51.073 Sure, yes, yes. 588 00:44:51.233 --> 00:44:53.534 But it's definitely got that aspect in it. 589 00:44:54.235 --> 00:44:55.415 That's another area of mirrors, isn't it? 590 00:44:55.435 --> 00:44:56.996 That sort of distortion as well, I guess. 591 00:44:57.656 --> 00:45:01.277 Sort of the fairground mirrors, the distortion of people. 592 00:45:01.577 --> 00:45:08.980 Which, again, is something that in the book, and likewise, there's the idea that, you know, perhaps what this dark side that's reflected is more of a distortion than something that's actually accurate, you know. 593 00:45:10.381 --> 00:45:37.520 but yeah they're just everywhere also you mentioned the mirror cracked side to side which obviously taps into the folkloric idea of seven years of bad luck from a cracked mirror we have so many things that are tied around mirrors and reflections another one has just come to me it's not really a, it's more of a general idea but vampires not having reflections because they have no souls so I think it's just I think the implications either on a subconscious level of fascinating people and what they might mean and what questions they raise you know 594 00:45:38.411 --> 00:45:41.212 So are you going to choose your mirror to interact with, just out of interest? 595 00:45:41.572 --> 00:45:43.992 Are you going to risk a curse just to see what happens? 596 00:45:45.133 --> 00:45:45.813 Well, do you know what? 597 00:45:45.833 --> 00:45:48.574 Actually, if I could do it as an experiment, I might... No, I'm not. 598 00:45:48.614 --> 00:45:49.194 I'll use my own book. 599 00:45:49.214 --> 00:45:52.875 I'll be curious about what my dark side will be, because sometimes we don't know, perhaps. 600 00:45:52.995 --> 00:45:59.556 But I think I would go for... You've already nabbed the Alice for the Looking Glass one. 601 00:46:00.337 --> 00:46:00.897 Let me think. 602 00:46:00.917 --> 00:46:01.317 Let me think. 603 00:46:02.475 --> 00:46:06.158 Yeah, I'd go for one of the smartphones slash tablet ones from the fairy tales. 604 00:46:06.198 --> 00:46:09.581 I think it'd be a real advantage in life. 605 00:46:10.141 --> 00:46:18.588 And the other thing, of course, about the Snow White one is if you don't want to be the fairest of all, it's actually just a very useful computer interface. 606 00:46:19.292 --> 00:46:20.693 Absolutely, yeah. 607 00:46:20.713 --> 00:46:24.376 So I'd be quite happy saying who's the fairest of us all because I don't care. 608 00:46:24.396 --> 00:46:25.557 Well, yeah, that's right. 609 00:46:25.618 --> 00:46:27.419 It's not going to be me, so, you know. 610 00:46:27.499 --> 00:46:32.383 And you can expand, you know, say mirror, mirror on the wall, you know, where can I get a decent pie in the area? 611 00:46:32.543 --> 00:46:35.766 You know, it's handy for all sorts of practical things. 612 00:46:36.727 --> 00:46:39.929 Yeah, so I think we can repurpose that for the good guy. 613 00:46:41.549 --> 00:46:42.870 Darren, it was delightful to meet you. 614 00:46:43.110 --> 00:46:51.074 And again, and good luck with this book and also the exciting one coming out next year with your collaboration with the illustrator. 615 00:46:51.134 --> 00:46:52.394 Always a fascinating process. 616 00:46:52.454 --> 00:46:55.396 So yeah, be careful in looking in those mirrors. 617 00:46:56.116 --> 00:46:56.876 Thank you, Julia. 618 00:46:56.896 --> 00:46:57.197 Cheers. 619 00:46:57.577 --> 00:46:57.857 Cheers. 620 00:47:04.004 --> 00:47:06.605 Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast. 621 00:47:07.325 --> 00:47:10.086 Brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 622 00:47:10.746 --> 00:47:14.507 Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. 623 00:47:15.207 --> 00:47:22.128 Find out about our online courses, In Person Stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for great gifts. 624 00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:28.170 Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide.