บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S2E12: How to Get Better Marketing Results Without Team Burnout -- ft. Pete Sena, Founder of Digital Surgeons

00:06:28.674 And I don't share this with you or the audience to glorify it. 00:06:28.754 --> 00:06:33.454 I share it as a cautionary tale because I was loving what I was doing. 00:06:33.894 --> 00:06:36.974 I was pushing myself so hard because I was loving it. 00:06:37.474 --> 00:06:41.794 I was learning every day. I was pushing myself every day. I was building multiple companies. 00:06:42.814 --> 00:06:50.674 And as we get older, when we're not 20 years old anymore, our bodies can't withstand the same type of. 00:06:51.842 --> 00:06:56.482 Constant tension, constant stress over time. So I think at the time I was probably 00:06:56.482 --> 00:07:01.682 drinking, I don't know, four or five cups of coffee a day, wasn't drinking a lot of water. 00:07:02.202 --> 00:07:05.022 I would work out and lift heavy weights in the gym and whatnot, 00:07:05.162 --> 00:07:08.322 but I wasn't sleeping well or a lot, probably because of the caffeine. 00:07:08.682 --> 00:07:14.282 I was working a lot late at night and really just putting the time and putting the grind in. 00:07:14.462 --> 00:07:20.222 And look, this is not me trying to be for or against hustle porn here. 00:07:20.362 --> 00:07:23.762 This is me just saying, this is my journey. This was what worked for me, 00:07:23.762 --> 00:07:25.782 what didn't work for me. I want to share it with others. 00:07:26.882 --> 00:07:31.022 But what it was like was it was a pretty serious medical thing. 00:07:31.502 --> 00:07:37.662 And then what it felt like after I started to incorporate a more healthy hydration 00:07:37.662 --> 00:07:42.682 routine, a more healthy self-care routine with meditation, a little bit of journaling, 00:07:42.702 --> 00:07:46.182 note-taking, it was transformationally different. 00:07:46.342 --> 00:07:48.642 I was thinking more clearly. My moods were more more stabilized. 00:07:49.122 --> 00:07:54.782 I made improvements in my diet. And it was like, I went from being stressed 00:07:54.782 --> 00:07:58.922 out all the time and overworked to feeling like really even and clear. 00:07:59.902 --> 00:08:03.202 I joke around a lot and to the people that still work with me, 00:08:03.242 --> 00:08:06.262 because I have a lot of people that worked with me before and after this. 00:08:06.342 --> 00:08:08.562 And it's like, you know, before meditation, Pete, after meditation, 00:08:08.682 --> 00:08:10.502 Pete, I joke around a lot. 00:08:10.602 --> 00:08:13.162 I mean, I'm still the same person, right? I still bring the same level of energy 00:08:13.162 --> 00:08:17.302 and passion, but I think it's just, it's knowing when you're at the red line, 00:08:17.422 --> 00:08:20.922 that the best thing to do when you're at the red line is not to hit the gas. 00:08:20.982 --> 00:08:23.422 It's actually to let your foot off the gas, not hit the brake, 00:08:23.602 --> 00:08:25.942 but just understand that there is a limit. 00:08:26.102 --> 00:08:31.742 And the best way to build that upper limit is to strive, but

also to make sure 00:08:31.742 --> 00:08:36.262 to pause and be present and have self-care. So yeah, that's how I would answer that question. 00:08:37.102 --> 00:08:42.322 Oh, yeah. That's an incredible story. Since you've been kind of of promoting 00:08:42.322 --> 00:08:45.622 this with your team members, like Pete after meditation, 00:08:45.962 --> 00:08:50.362 like how, what was the change in how you like interacted with, 00:08:50.422 --> 00:08:54.042 with them, with, with other people who you work with? 00:08:55.047 --> 00:09:03.247 It's a really good question. I think what I would say is I'm more patient now. 00:09:03.707 --> 00:09:09.447 I recognize that just because something can get done in a day doesn't mean that it has to or it should. 00:09:10.207 --> 00:09:16.447 And I think that what I would also say just to be really, really clear is I've 00:09:16.447 --> 00:09:21.507 never been the kind of person that pushes people to work nights and weekends 00:09:21.507 --> 00:09:24.467 and that sort of thing. I've never been that kind of boss, never been that kind of leader. 00:09:24.707 --> 00:09:28.187 I held myself to that standard as one of the owners. And I think a lot of founders 00:09:28.187 --> 00:09:34.247 and entrepreneurs who might be listening to this understand you pushing yourself 00:09:34.247 --> 00:09:36.047 does not always equal you pushing your team. 00:09:36.147 --> 00:09:38.287 So I want to make sure that there's a direct distinction. distinction, 00:09:38.347 --> 00:09:40.267 I'm speaking primarily for myself. 00:09:40.547 --> 00:09:45.967 I think I've always led my team in a way that created space for them to have 00:09:45.967 --> 00:09:48.747 work-life balance and that sort of thing. 00:09:49.247 --> 00:09:53.807 We've never been known as the you're going to work 80 hours a week kind of company. 00:09:53.887 --> 00:09:55.007 We've just never been that company. 00:09:55.187 --> 00:09:57.887 I've worked at companies like that. I have friends who work at companies like 00:09:57.887 --> 00:09:59.747 that. I don't think that that's healthy. 00:10:00.467 --> 00:10:03.607 And that's a whole separate topic altogether. 00:10:03.927 --> 00:10:07.567 But yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think for me, we have a wellness budget and a learning 00:10:07.567 --> 00:10:09.887 development budget and all of our employees and all my companies, 00:10:10.047 --> 00:10:15.247 people can use that for whatever they deem as growth and self-care. 00:10:15.487 --> 00:10:20.407 We have a really generous PTO policy that we're super flexible about. 00:10:20.487 --> 00:10:26.287 We're a remote-first culture, so we're not forcing people to be in the office five days a week. 00:10:26.507 --> 00:10:30.887 We're really generally flexible as long as the work is getting done. 00:10:31.267 --> 00:10:35.487 So I would say that's just just been my, you know, my thoughts on. 00:10:36.988 --> 00:10:40.928 That aspect of it. But I think for me, just kind of going back to the thread 00:10:40.928 --> 00:10:44.288 that connected you and I around mindful marketing or mindful B2B marketing is, 00:10:44.368 --> 00:10:49.608 I don't think mindful has to always be connected to yoga, meditation, 00:10:49.788 --> 00:10:51.608 and sleep, which it typically is. 00:10:51.688 --> 00:10:56.668 I think mindful means being present and aware of the challenge that we have in front of us. 00:10:56.748 --> 00:11:00.768 And I would say to that end, I've always been a really present marketer in terms 00:11:00.768 --> 00:11:06.188 of understanding who is my team, who's my client, who is their customer, who are we serving? 00:11:06.688 --> 00:11:10.928 So I just want to make sure that we come at it through multiple angles of mindful. 00:11:12.268 --> 00:11:19.108 Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. So you mentioned that you've implemented some 00:11:19.108 --> 00:11:22.508 of these like wellness programs and PTO programs. 00:11:22.688 --> 00:11:28.748 So can you like describe what some of those are and like, have you since implementing 00:11:28.748 --> 00:11:35.068 any of these, have Have you seen like a difference in the people you work with? 00:11:35.188 --> 00:11:40.268 Like say you implemented an employee wellness program, like just have you seen 00:11:40.268 --> 00:11:47.648 any like before and after stories or just like notice that people seem happier, healthier? 00:11:47.768 --> 00:11:52.248 Like what, what, what case studies do you have of this like working anecdotally? 00:11:53.028 --> 00:11:56.608 I have a lot of qualitative case studies. I wouldn't say I have a quantitative 00:11:56.608 --> 00:12:02.568 case study because we, that's not something that I'm super involved in. 00:12:02.608 --> 00:12:05.348 I have a really great leadership team that focuses on those things. 00:12:05.368 --> 00:12:07.668 So I can certainly double back with them and get back to you. 00:12:07.748 --> 00:12:14.428 But what I would say in terms of what I've experienced is we have a relatively 00:12:14.428 --> 00:12:18.448 high retention rate in terms of the amount of time that people have stayed with the company. 00:12:19.808 --> 00:12:23.968 How they've grown with the company over time when compared to our industry benchmarks. 00:12:24.248 --> 00:12:29.008 We use a couple of different softwares where we can get employee net promoter scores or ENPS. 00:12:29.488 --> 00:12:33.088 And those kinds of things, certainly things that come up in one-on-ones with 00:12:33.088 --> 00:12:35.308 managers and leaders. We do 360 reviews. 00:12:35.568 --> 00:12:39.448 So I think we've heard a lot. I think for me... 00:12:40.724 --> 00:12:46.144 The correlation that I would make to it is people feel seen and heard, 00:12:46.264 --> 00:12:50.604 but I think the world is generally a pretty chaotic place right now. 00:12:50.784 --> 00:12:55.464 It's very difficult for some people to work and focus when we have some of the 00:12:55.464 --> 00:12:58.324 atrocities happening in the

world that are happening today. 00:12:58.324 --> 00:13:02.164 You know, some people are really emotionally affected by these things, 00:13:02.324 --> 00:13:06.304 whether they're directly or indirectly in their, in their vicinity. 00:13:06.464 --> 00:13:09.064 So I can't pretend to know what's going on people's heads and hearts. 00:13:09.104 --> 00:13:12.164 But what I can say is, you know, by us doing our part, 00:13:12.364 --> 00:13:14.804 you know, when we offered up like meditation app subscriptions, 00:13:14.904 --> 00:13:19.544 and we've heard anecdotally from people in the company that that's been really 00:13:19.544 --> 00:13:21.904 appreciated, that we focus on that. 00:13:21.904 --> 00:13:24.644 We've had a lot of people really surprised by it like wow like i 00:13:24.644 --> 00:13:27.584 didn't know that i could you know that that was a possibility you know 00:13:27.584 --> 00:13:30.544 some people who do a lot of work from home have 00:13:30.544 --> 00:13:33.564 you know bought various amenities that you know 00:13:33.564 --> 00:13:36.324 have made their life or work easier you know like 00:13:36.324 --> 00:13:40.224 one of our engineers has like a special kind of ergonomic keyboard that's really 00:13:40.224 --> 00:13:44.704 special for him and and i think you know makes him feel like heard and appreciated 00:13:44.704 --> 00:13:48.604 you know i think it's different things for different people but again i'm not 00:13:48.604 --> 00:13:52.964 that's not something that i'm super involved in on the day-to-day, 00:13:53.024 --> 00:13:53.964 so I don't want to pretend to be. 00:13:54.304 --> 00:13:57.764 But I would say overall, what I do see come out a lot in the retrospectives, 00:13:57.764 --> 00:14:00.404 so we do retrospectives in our sprints when we close them out. 00:14:01.004 --> 00:14:05.544 And it does seem that people really like when we do different things, 00:14:05.664 --> 00:14:10.624 whether it's any time Friday, which is our summer Friday kind of thing, 00:14:10.704 --> 00:14:15.144 or when we gather and bring people together for different things, 00:14:15.624 --> 00:14:20.064 as opposed to really trying to squeeze out every billable hour we can. 00:14:20.244 --> 00:14:24.144 I feel like it just promotes a happier, healthier workplace. 00:14:24.684 --> 00:14:27.644 And that's just the way that I've felt for a really long time. 00:14:27.724 --> 00:14:30.064 So I wouldn't consider that to be very... 00:14:31.975 --> 00:14:35.755 Avant-garde. I think great companies understand that their greatest assets are 00:14:35.755 --> 00:14:38.855 people. And if you take good care of people, they take good care of you and your clients. 00:14:39.255 --> 00:14:43.195 So I don't know, maybe I'm weird because I'm just biased in that regard. 00:14:43.755 --> 00:14:46.855 Well, yeah. Well, let's dissect some of these biases then 00:14:46.855 --> 00:14:51.655 because you said you might have worked at some previous companies where they 00:14:51.655 --> 00:14:56.355 didn't really have a culture that focused on wellness or where you've encountered 00:14:56.355 --> 00:15:02.655 friends or colleagues who have been in those kind of 80 hour a week hustle and 00:15:02.655 --> 00:15:05.235 grind set type of working environments. 00:15:05.835 --> 00:15:13.955 Can you maybe speak a little bit about friends or anecdotes you've noticed of 00:15:13.955 --> 00:15:18.155 people who've been in that environment and how it might compare to your employees? 00:15:19.095 --> 00:15:23.615 100%. I was at the dinner with a friend the other night. He works at a big four consultancy. 00:15:24.015 --> 00:15:28.195 And he said that on a regular basis, his boss We'll call him at midnight or 00:15:28.195 --> 00:15:31.555 one o'clock in the morning and ask him to deliver things. 00:15:32.275 --> 00:15:35.195 Again, he's at a big four consultancy. He's, he's, you know, 00:15:35.195 --> 00:15:38.435 pretty high up in the organization. He's not a, he's not a leader. 00:15:38.535 --> 00:15:39.975 He's a, you know, individual contributor. 00:15:40.955 --> 00:15:43.555 He'll get a call on a Thursday. He has to be on a plane on a Friday. 00:15:43.955 --> 00:15:47.115 You know, guy's got a family, right? But he's got to do it. 00:15:48.512 --> 00:15:52.852 You know, constant emails, Slack messages, after hours, 00:15:53.152 --> 00:15:57.692 you know, unreasonable project deadlines where things have to get done, 00:15:57.732 --> 00:16:02.292 you know, in hours or days that some people take weeks or months on. 00:16:02.392 --> 00:16:04.432 So, I mean, I've heard a lot of crazy stories. 00:16:04.572 --> 00:16:08.172 I mean, you hear stories of people that, you know, just are working around the 00:16:08.172 --> 00:16:09.692 clock and having to deliver stuff. 00:16:11.692 --> 00:16:17.532 So that's a stark contrast from our team, you know, like at 5.15 on a regular 00:16:17.532 --> 00:16:22.512 day here, where most of our office is empty or virtual office, whatever you call it. 00:16:23.372 --> 00:16:28.032 I think a lot of companies still are counting the hours and counting the watches. 00:16:28.412 --> 00:16:31.952 I think we have to stop counting the hours and start making the hours count. 00:16:33.152 --> 00:16:36.032 It's not to say that we don't work hard. It's not to say that we don't have 00:16:36.032 --> 00:16:38.632 those times where we have to do things. 00:16:38.692 --> 00:16:40.972 But I do think that it's important to recognize people's boundaries, 00:16:41.072 --> 00:16:45.072 to understand those things, and to hold space and hold them sacred. grid. 00:16:45.332 --> 00:16:48.472 One of the things that I do, which I do think made a big difference in my team 00:16:48.472 --> 00:16:53.132 is I used to be in meetings all day and then at night I'd be catching up and I'd be emailing people. 00:16:53.292 --> 00:16:56.912 And I didn't realize that if the CEO is sending an email at eight o'clock at 00:16:56.912 -->

00:16:58.812 night and their phone lights up, they might check it. 00:16:58.912 --> 00:17:03.192 So what I do now is my team knows this. We make jokes about it is they notice 00:17:03.192 --> 00:17:05.852 that almost all the emails they get from me that happened at 8am. 00:17:06.272 --> 00:17:11.332 It's because I use a tool called superhuman and it schedules them for the next day. 00:17:11.572 --> 00:17:16.292 So the benefit to that is if I'm modeling the behavior that I'm working all 00:17:16.292 --> 00:17:21.032 hours of the night, then sometimes that might implicitly set the unspoken rule 00:17:21.032 --> 00:17:23.192 set that they think they have to work those kinds of hours. 00:17:23.312 --> 00:17:26.432 So I think that we encourage use of do not disturb on Slack. 00:17:26.592 --> 00:17:34.252 We encourage away messages on Slack and out of office emails when people are out of the office. 00:17:34.512 --> 00:17:38.472 And we don't bother people when they're on vacation. 00:17:38.712 --> 00:17:42.412 I mean, to me, this is just like good business. So forgive me if I'm kind of 00:17:42.412 --> 00:17:46.012 like, But then I have friends who are at really great companies. 00:17:47.144 --> 00:17:51.584 Or let's say really high performing companies, like brands that you and I know and love. 00:17:51.684 --> 00:17:54.864 I don't want to out any of them specifically, but like main name brands that 00:17:54.864 --> 00:17:59.144 we've all heard of and maybe buy from, and it's not the same for them. 00:17:59.664 --> 00:18:04.444 Where they're getting called into the office, they have to drive two and a half hours to an office. 00:18:05.464 --> 00:18:08.544 They get there and their boss doesn't show up for 45 minutes. 00:18:08.744 --> 00:18:13.104 And then they ended up having a 15 minute meeting with their boss and a two and a half hour drive. 00:18:13.704 --> 00:18:16.624 There's a lot of shit out there. And I think that people are waking up to the 00:18:16.624 --> 00:18:18.284 fact that freedom is the new flex. 00:18:18.764 --> 00:18:21.204 And I think the more you can give people freedom, the more people you can give 00:18:21.204 --> 00:18:25.304 people flexibility, the more that they're going to want to put the energy in 00:18:25.304 --> 00:18:27.664 to make the company successful if there's a purpose behind it. 00:18:27.804 --> 00:18:31.784 So I think people have woken up to the fact that it's not the 1800s anymore. 00:18:31.904 --> 00:18:37.984 People don't have to work in those types of situations because there are other 00:18:37.984 --> 00:18:39.044 options out there for them. 00:18:39.624 --> 00:18:43.324 We have a very... My companies employ mostly knowledge workers. 00:18:43.484 --> 00:18:46.884 So they're all really smart awesome people and 00:18:46.884 --> 00:18:49.544 i think that they know that you know they don't have to be here they can 00:18:49.544 --> 00:18:52.244 be anywhere they want to be really and so i think that when people 00:18:52.244 --> 00:18:55.144 want to be somewhere versus feeling like they have to be somewhere i think it changes that 00:18:55.144 --> 00:19:01.224 the dynamic but again this is these are things that are not new to me we've 00:19:01.224 --> 00:19:05.464 we've believed this for a long time i mean yeah it's not new to you but it's 00:19:05.464 --> 00:19:10.564 new to some people or they just like maybe i've heard of these types But don't 00:19:10.564 --> 00:19:14.264 don't really have it in their company or in their team. 00:19:14.444 --> 00:19:20.024 So, yeah, for these are like marketers and like CEOs who are listening and like 00:19:20.024 --> 00:19:24.244 trying to move towards this type of culture. 00:19:24.244 --> 00:19:29.904 So I want to drill down like a little bit on how you implement some of these things. 00:19:29.984 --> 00:19:34.084 Like, okay, you say, for example, you encourage people that do out of office 00:19:34.084 --> 00:19:37.724 responders and do not disturb Slack messages. 00:19:37.864 --> 00:19:43.564 Like what kind of, do you have any kind of like system for that or like some 00:19:43.564 --> 00:19:47.084 guidelines that are encouraged in specific situations? 00:19:47.244 --> 00:19:49.744 Or is it just kind of like, eh, use it when you need it? 00:19:50.004 --> 00:19:53.844 Yeah. I'll actually, I'll show you actually. Hold on. 00:19:54.924 --> 00:20:02.424 Give me one second, okay? Mm-hmm. I just want to respect people's privacy, so give me one sec. Yeah. 00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:08.160 But I want to show you in the audience so you can see it. It's like an internal 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.520 document with your guidelines. 00:20:10.760 --> 00:20:12.960 Yeah. Give me just one second. I'm going to show you. 00:20:14.100 --> 00:20:18.120 I just didn't want to. I just want to make sure nobody's sensitive information, 00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:21.280 like their names or whatever was there, just because permission, 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:22.620 I think, is a really important thing. 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.380 And I didn't have the permission to share that. So hold on one second. 00:20:27.940 --> 00:20:30.940 So I will share my screen. this is 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:33.580 just to share context for you in 00:20:33.580 --> 00:20:36.300 the audience so this is an 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:41.560 internal slack channel we have called my status so here you see a person leaving 00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:46.840 at 4 45 you know seeing a person leaving for after-school help to help with 00:20:46.840 --> 00:20:52.240 their kids yeah someone's on a little bit earlier you know someone's out for 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.940 pto someone's taking their fall friday so we have these things called fall all Fridays, 00:20:56.020 --> 00:21:00.680 which are basically where you can just elect to take certain Fridays off that you want to take off. 00:21:00.860 --> 00:21:04.540 So you see people like electing that and reacting to that and that sort of

thing. 00:21:04.620 --> 00:21:11.540 So it's a very relaxed situation where we look out for each other and people 00:21:11.540 --> 00:21:13.140 just signal what they're going to do. 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:18.100 And it's not like you have to put in for a time off request and get that approved by your boss. 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.040 We work together, we cover each other. And that's just an example. 00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:25.260 But like you can see there, like, you know, that if I was to scroll past that, 00:21:25.300 --> 00:21:28.440 there's stuff happening all day. I blurred out people's names just for privacy purposes. 00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:33.380 But yeah, I mean, that's it's stuff. It's small stuff. We don't like over operationalize 00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:35.380 it. Right. It's like open communication. 00:21:35.860 --> 00:21:38.580 Typically, people letting each other know when they're not going to be around or not. 00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:42.180 You might have noticed the little emojis next to people's names. 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:44.540 We use different software that will say, like, if they're in a meeting, 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.140 so you're not like slacking someone there in a meeting or if someone's away 00:21:48.140 --> 00:21:50.780 or in a different time zone because we have people that work all over the world. 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:55.340 So I'd say it's small stuff like that. It's just like when you act like a human 00:21:55.340 --> 00:21:57.960 being to people, they act like a human being back. 00:21:58.793 --> 00:22:02.353 And i don't know i just don't think it's that hard yeah 00:22:02.353 --> 00:22:05.433 what what app was that you said it's called my status or 00:22:05.433 --> 00:22:10.653 it's a channel within that's just a black channel we have oh okay and so there's 00:22:10.653 --> 00:22:17.033 no company you know where you request the time or you have a spreadsheet or 00:22:17.033 --> 00:22:20.953 whatever it's just oh i want to take tomorrow off i'm taking fall friday tomorrow 00:22:20.953 --> 00:22:24.213 guys and that's it it's it's It's kind of that simple. 00:22:24.473 --> 00:22:31.333 We have an HR workflow system that's connected to all of our payroll stuff called Zenefits, 00:22:31.553 --> 00:22:35.033 where when someone's going to take time off, they do let their manager know, 00:22:35.153 --> 00:22:39.773 and then their manager will put that in so that it's in that system too. 00:22:39.953 --> 00:22:43.873 But I'm saying the way we go about applying for these things is extremely conversational. 00:22:44.133 --> 00:22:48.493 What I found is that the easier and more flexible you can make things for people, 00:22:48.593 --> 00:22:50.433 the more likely that people will use the system. them. 00:22:50.453 --> 00:22:55.713 The harder and more complex, the different. Now, again, we're a much smaller company. 00:22:55.893 --> 00:22:59.633 I work with some of my clients that are 20, 30, 40,000 person companies. 00:22:59.773 --> 00:23:03.173 So obviously those things I think require a little bit more rules. 00:23:03.693 --> 00:23:08.613 We're independently owned, right? So we're not beholden to some corporate overlord. 00:23:08.853 --> 00:23:12.233 I am the corporate overlord in this case. So I think we can kind of do things 00:23:12.233 --> 00:23:14.473 how we want to do them. And I'm really proud of that. 00:23:15.693 --> 00:23:22.493 Okay. And how many people are in your company? So right now we're just about 40 full-time people. 00:23:22.873 --> 00:23:28.193 I'm a little under 40. I think 38 was the number as of the screen share I just cleared. 00:23:28.473 --> 00:23:34.193 And then we've got a bunch of contractors and kind of perma lancers that we 00:23:34.193 --> 00:23:37.433 work with on a regular basis. But yeah, the core team is about 38 people. 00:23:38.093 --> 00:23:46.033 Okay. Sounds cool. And there's a topic that you brought up previously in one 00:23:46.033 --> 00:23:55.653 of our conversation that was about outcome-focused leadership versus output-focused. 00:23:56.493 --> 00:24:02.233 Yeah. So can you explain what's the difference between outcomes and outputs 00:24:02.233 --> 00:24:05.473 and why you think leaders should be aware of that? 00:24:05.933 --> 00:24:10.593 Yes, 1000%. I think a lot of leaders focus on what are the tasks and and to-dos 00:24:10.593 --> 00:24:12.113 that their employees are doing. 00:24:12.673 --> 00:24:18.533 And I think that when people focus on counting the hours and counting the tasks 00:24:18.533 --> 00:24:23.073 and counting the outputs, I think that people then start to think that way, 00:24:23.153 --> 00:24:26.153 which is they think that if they do a lot of things and they're really busy, 00:24:26.353 --> 00:24:27.633 they're actually adding value. 00:24:27.973 --> 00:24:29.813 I like to focus on outcomes. 00:24:30.293 --> 00:24:33.993 So for example, I would rather someone come to me and say that, 00:24:34.153 --> 00:24:39.233 I'll take a business development example for a second, and then I'll come around to an engineering one. 00:24:40.141 --> 00:24:45.941 I'd rather someone say, we've got three clients that are about to sign a new 00:24:45.941 --> 00:24:50.881 scope of work to work with the company that they're working on versus them saying, 00:24:50.981 --> 00:24:54.941 I made 100 phone calls today, or I sent 100 emails today. 00:24:55.721 --> 00:24:59.341 Because I think that a lot of times people focus too much on the output and 00:24:59.341 --> 00:25:00.181 not enough on the outcome. 00:25:00.401 --> 00:25:04.041 And I think that when you focus too much on the widget and not enough on the 00:25:04.041 --> 00:25:08.541 why, then in my experiences, your success is different. 00:25:08.541 --> 00:25:14.321 So what I mean by outcome obsessed is like, what are the most important things 00:25:14.321 --> 00:25:19.961 that we need to get done on this creative program that when it goes live is

00:25:19.961 --> 00:25:24.181 going to surprise and delight this particular core audience who we know has 00:25:24.181 --> 00:25:27.381 these needs and wants and that sort of thing? What's the outcome? 00:25:27.941 --> 00:25:31.441 Versus going like, okay, here's the to-do list of 30 things that we have to do. 00:25:31.941 --> 00:25:35.121 And okay, if we get 28 of them done, we feel bad about ourselves because we 00:25:35.121 --> 00:25:38.401 didn't get all 30 done. done versus if we just celebrate the fact that we're 00:25:38.401 --> 00:25:42.081 launching this thing, it meets the criteria, getting some success, 00:25:42.341 --> 00:25:44.601 that's an outcome. So I like to focus on outcomes over outputs. 00:25:44.981 --> 00:25:49.241 I think a lot of companies have the kinds of cultures, the kinds of setup, 00:25:49.461 --> 00:25:55.041 the kinds of people where they focus too much on where the person is, 00:25:55.241 --> 00:25:57.741 did they get this thing done? 00:25:57.821 --> 00:26:02.561 And I just think that when you treat people like adults, they behave like adults. 00:26:02.741 --> 00:26:05.421 When you treat people like Like children, they behave like children, right? 00:26:05.501 --> 00:26:12.361 And what I mean by that specifically is like, give respect, get respect. Give trust, get trust. 00:26:13.541 --> 00:26:15.241 Give distrust, get distrust back. 00:26:16.681 --> 00:26:21.641 So I just think that it's really simple. And it's sad because I work with a 00:26:21.641 --> 00:26:23.341 lot of leaders who don't see it that way. 00:26:23.441 --> 00:26:26.701 Not in my company, in other companies where they're just like, 00:26:26.801 --> 00:26:32.141 they're still living in Frederick Taylorism world from the 1800s where they 00:26:32.141 --> 00:26:33.941 think people are going to be programmed like robots. 00:26:34.221 --> 00:26:37.481 And what I tell people now is if you want robots to work for you, go get an AI. 00:26:37.801 --> 00:26:39.741 If you want people that are going to help you grow your company, 00:26:39.881 --> 00:26:44.061 focus on outcomes and making people feel heard, seen, and loved. 00:26:44.941 --> 00:26:50.821 Yeah. And I think that over-optimization has kind of bled into business culture 00:26:50.821 --> 00:26:59.781 over however many years, like post-internet and remote working and social media culture, 00:27:00.041 --> 00:27:06.941 because I think people, there's maybe then this movement towards like productivity 00:27:06.941 --> 00:27:15.641 and measuring it like digitally through like optimizing the number of hours, 00:27:16.241 --> 00:27:19.041 the amount you can squeeze out of the number of hours you're working. 00:27:19.061 --> 00:27:25.181 And then the amount accomplished per minute, like you get some advice from. 00:27:26.503 --> 00:27:32.483 You know, some famous business CEO that'll say, oh, well, you can compress your 00:27:32.483 --> 00:27:36.583 meetings down from 30 minutes to 15 minutes and you can

get just as much done 00:27:36.583 --> 00:27:37.963 if you squeeze in that time. 00:27:38.203 --> 00:27:42.723 But then that... I do agree with that though, but I want to be really clear about something. 00:27:42.863 --> 00:27:47.083 So I just wrote an article that I purposely have been compressing my meetings 00:27:47.083 --> 00:27:49.943 with people for shorter meetings, because I think meetings are generally a waste 00:27:49.943 --> 00:27:52.703 of fucking time, which we're going to cover in just a second, hopefully. 00:27:52.863 --> 00:27:59.703 But what I want to say as a build on what you said, Kira, is I think that productivity 00:27:59.703 --> 00:28:01.183 does not equal progress. 00:28:01.903 --> 00:28:06.543 So I want to be really clear is what people call productive is often not productive. 00:28:06.843 --> 00:28:12.063 For me, I think that people need to focus on effectiveness. They need to focus on progress. 00:28:12.803 --> 00:28:17.743 And I think that productivity oftentimes is measuring quantity, not quality. 00:28:18.303 --> 00:28:21.423 And I think that, yes, we absolutely want high quality, high quantity, 00:28:21.423 --> 00:28:24.443 but low quantity high 00:28:24.443 --> 00:28:28.523 quality there's value there so you have to look at yourself you have to look 00:28:28.523 --> 00:28:30.683 at your business you have to look at your customer and you have to ask yourself 00:28:30.683 --> 00:28:35.223 like well what is success and then move into that but i do think there's a lot 00:28:35.223 --> 00:28:40.363 of waste in organizations so i think that like i applaud the ceo of shopify 00:28:40.363 --> 00:28:42.683 who got rid of meetings that were recurring meetings 00:28:43.123 --> 00:28:46.143 most of them are a waste of time if you ask the people how they really felt 00:28:46.143 --> 00:28:49.163 no one wants to go to a fucking 60 person 00:28:49.163 --> 00:28:51.963 zoom meeting and listen to somebody wonk on it's like that could have 00:28:51.963 --> 00:28:54.883 been an email that could have been a loom message right that's 00:28:54.883 --> 00:28:58.703 why loom got built bought for almost a billion dollars because the 00:28:58.703 --> 00:29:01.083 amount of times i have to say something to someone but rather than writing an 00:29:01.083 --> 00:29:06.243 email i'll send them a five minute loom watch the loom respond to the loom when 00:29:06.243 --> 00:29:09.103 you get a chance right i don't need it right this second but if i call a meeting 00:29:09.103 --> 00:29:12.463 with you and add all this pressure you know some people like to process things 00:29:12.463 --> 00:29:16.323 go through them a few times so i I think that like what I've learned about synchronous 00:29:16.323 --> 00:29:18.123 and asynchronous communication is that. 00:29:19.328 --> 00:29:25.788 The way you communicate, where you communicate, how you communicate is super important. 00:29:26.668 --> 00:29:31.668 And it's something I've struggled with a lot. I have a particular company that 00:29:31.668 --> 00:29:37.828 I am an owner in, and that company is really struggling with meeting culture right now. 00:29:38.888 --> 00:29:44.588 And it's so ingrained in that company's DNA, it's really hard to change. 00:29:44.588 --> 00:29:47.668 So that's a situation where I feel bad for that company because, 00:29:47.728 --> 00:29:49.508 and it's one of my companies, 00:29:49.648 --> 00:29:54.308 and I feel bad because it's really difficult when someone's so used to for multiple 00:29:54.308 --> 00:29:58.608 years having a meeting about a meeting, and then we go and replace that with 00:29:58.608 --> 00:30:01.808 a loom and people have free time and they're like, oh my God, what do I do with this? 00:30:01.808 --> 00:30:06.808 You actually have to give people permission to then use that free time for things that are valuable. 00:30:07.028 --> 00:30:09.788 And I think that that's a culture change. That's a behavior change. 00:30:09.988 --> 00:30:14.928 I have so much respect for change management people because one, 00:30:14.988 --> 00:30:19.908 I just think like every change management person needs like a lifetime supply 00:30:19.908 --> 00:30:25.448 to THC because like it's hard to make people update behaviors and change, right? 00:30:26.088 --> 00:30:30.208 And if you historically look at the leaders in change management, 00:30:30.448 --> 00:30:34.428 it's been the companies that go in and fire and reward companies, right? 00:30:34.768 --> 00:30:38.808 But if you really look at the sustained progress around change management companies, 00:30:38.968 --> 00:30:40.208 I am not a change management expert. 00:30:40.288 --> 00:30:44.388 But what I will tell you is the data tells you that it's about understanding 00:30:44.388 --> 00:30:47.888 the change, understanding the transition, and understanding how to communicate 00:30:47.888 --> 00:30:49.748 and work with that throughout those stages. 00:30:50.428 --> 00:30:54.728 I got a little bit of an expertise in change management during COVID because I'm like, Like, fuck, 00:30:55.008 --> 00:30:59.508 like the world just did a 180, but I have so much respect for smart change management 00:30:59.508 --> 00:31:04.128 people that do this for a living people, ops people, like God bless their beautiful 00:31:04.128 --> 00:31:05.488 souls and their patients. 00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:07.669 They're special people. 00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:15.029 Yeah, I agree with that. I think people maybe, especially in certain company 00:31:15.029 --> 00:31:21.029 cultures, have a default of just relying on meetings or they're not thinking 00:31:21.029 --> 00:31:24.249 through what's the best way to communicate this ahead of time, 00:31:24.409 --> 00:31:29.629 especially if that's not set by the CEO or baked in from the beginning that, 00:31:29.709 --> 00:31:32.589 oh, we use Slack for this purpose, and then we use email for 00:31:32.589 --> 00:31:35.749 this purpose and then we use video

meeting or in-person 00:31:35.749 --> 00:31:39.169 meetings for this purpose at the same time like there 00:31:39.169 --> 00:31:43.769 might be some like over 00:31:43.769 --> 00:31:46.809 optimization like when people 00:31:46.809 --> 00:31:50.069 when people get too much in this productivity mentality in my 00:31:50.069 --> 00:31:53.089 opinion they can sometimes like focus too 00:31:53.089 --> 00:31:56.289 much on the times and like ted out things that are 00:31:56.289 --> 00:31:59.909 important like for example it 00:31:59.909 --> 00:32:03.269 might not make dollars and cents 00:32:03.269 --> 00:32:08.869 on the surface to spend two days bringing everybody to a company retreat where 00:32:08.869 --> 00:32:13.789 they get to know each other but then that extra time that you're spending you 00:32:13.789 --> 00:32:20.109 can't measure it in like hour-by-hour output on your balance sheet, 00:32:20.229 --> 00:32:27.829 but it has some profound impacts on company cultures and people's productivity 00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:33.449 and people's well-being and overall coordination and efficiency at their jobs 00:32:33.449 --> 00:32:37.269 if they actually take the extra time to do something like that. 00:32:38.029 --> 00:32:46.969 So I disagree with those people because I think that they don't understand how to measure it. 00:32:47.369 --> 00:32:50.069 Just because you don't know how to measure something doesn't mean it can't be 00:32:50.069 --> 00:32:51.529 measured. So I'll give you a perfect example. 00:32:52.209 --> 00:32:58.289 Why a two-day retreat is valuable for a company is that you can do a before, 00:32:58.409 --> 00:32:59.489 during, and after retreat. 00:33:01.360 --> 00:33:06.440 Survey, conversation, emoji reaction with people. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:12.760 And you can get a felt sense of people on how that will improve clarity of vision, 00:33:13.100 --> 00:33:17.580 improve people's alignment towards a particular mission, bring people together 00:33:17.580 --> 00:33:21.720 in a time now where people really need... A lot of people are lonely, right? 00:33:21.860 --> 00:33:25.260 Not everybody at the company has family and children. Some people are lonely. 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:26.220 Some people are by themselves. 00:33:26.520 --> 00:33:29.600 Some people want to be in the presence of other people. 00:33:30.800 --> 00:33:34.820 Some people want to have their ideas be heard. Some people want to contribute in a different way. 00:33:35.020 --> 00:33:38.840 So I think knowing... So in that case, that two days, yeah, you can look at 00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:41.020 the productivity hit that you would have for those two days. 00:33:41.040 --> 00:33:43.420 But then what you can realize is that when people understand each other and 00:33:43.420 --> 00:33:46.240 speak each other's language, things are going to move a lot smoother. 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:51.480 Things are going to move a lot faster. So that two-day hit in productivity might 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.940 actually create a massive increase in two-year of productivity. 00:33:54.080 --> 00:33:54.880 I'll give you a perfect example. 00:33:55.760 --> 00:33:59.560 We've done similar things where we would do customer interviews with our clients, 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.840 where we'd go out, we would talk to some of their core customers, 00:34:03.040 --> 00:34:06.480 we would survey them, we would do specific things, and we would do before and 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.500 after studies of net promoter score, specifically on the client side. 00:34:11.100 --> 00:34:15.280 And we saw that when you invest in customer experience, when you invest in human 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.580 experience, you see an increase in net promoter score. 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:21.800 Then you were able to actually back in, what's the difference of a one or two 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.300 on a net promoter score, how does that affect lifetime value? 00:34:24.520 --> 00:34:27.660 How does that affect churn rate? So in the case internally for a company, 00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:32.520 lifetime value is equivalent to the time that they spend with an organization 00:34:32.520 --> 00:34:33.860 or the value that they contribute. 00:34:34.160 --> 00:34:38.800 So now you can actually largely affect your attrition rate or your contribution 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:44.340 rates simply by bringing people together around shared value, around shared visions. 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:47.360 I think that a lot of people think that they can't measure things. 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.860 They think that there's not going to be a big difference, but the reality is 00:34:50.860 --> 00:34:52.500 they're just not looking at the right things in my opinion. 00:34:52.580 --> 00:34:56.060 So that's where I think that people need to add more creativity to the way that 00:34:56.060 --> 00:35:00.060 they lead because humans are not robots. We're not machines to be. 00:35:01.045 --> 00:35:06.385 Optimally optimized. I think we can get a lot more out of our people if we let 00:35:06.385 --> 00:35:10.885 them focus, if we eliminate distractions for them, because the world is a distraction device, right? 00:35:10.945 --> 00:35:14.945 These rectangles we have in our pockets, we get enough distractions every day 00:35:14.945 --> 00:35:18.825 from our lives and families and all that, much less like Slack notifications. 00:35:19.145 --> 00:35:22.485 And hey, do you just have one minute? Do you just have one minute? 00:35:22.625 --> 00:35:27.065 How many times do you hear that in a company, right? And then it takes 30 minutes 00:35:27.065 --> 00:35:32.425 on average to get back on task and break that context switch. 00:35:32.605 --> 00:35:34.745 I mean, I don't know about you, Kara, but you ever finish a day up and you're 00:35:34.745 --> 00:35:35.945 like, what did I actually do today? 00:35:36.545 --> 00:35:41.305 Like a million, just one minute interruptions. So I think it

becomes more difficult as you scale. 00:35:41.845 --> 00:35:47.045 And I think when you're a remote company or remote first, it gets even harder 00:35:47.045 --> 00:35:49.225 because you have to design the interactions. 00:35:49.285 --> 00:35:52.785 You have to design the gathering in a meaningful way. and going right back to 00:35:52.785 --> 00:35:56.965 the outcome focused leadership, right? Is like, how do you focus on what are we trying to achieve? 00:35:57.125 --> 00:36:00.025 Like what's the unit of value that this employee needs to create? 00:36:00.605 --> 00:36:04.585 And just sharing that, like really transparent, like Kira, let me tell you, 00:36:04.625 --> 00:36:07.025 like you're on the team. This is the role that you provide. 00:36:07.565 --> 00:36:10.685 This is how you're compensated. This is what drives your compensation for the 00:36:10.685 --> 00:36:14.125 role. This is how we look at your measurement of success. 00:36:14.665 --> 00:36:18.085 Did you know that? And you're like, no, I didn't know that. So did you know 00:36:18.085 --> 00:36:21.905 why we need you to be on these particular things for these reasons? know. 00:36:22.305 --> 00:36:26.365 So I think when people understand those things, they're so much more empathetic. 00:36:26.485 --> 00:36:29.825 I think a lot of times we as leaders take for granted what people actually know. 00:36:31.365 --> 00:36:35.825 And that's why I think communication is so important. And that's been a huge weakness of mine. 00:36:36.005 --> 00:36:41.145 I would assume people knew things or I would try to over-communicate or under-communicate. 00:36:41.345 --> 00:36:45.205 And the truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as over-communication. 00:36:45.805 --> 00:36:49.505 It doesn't exist. Because even when you think you're saying too much, 00:36:49.505 --> 00:36:51.085 which you're not saying enough for some people. 00:36:51.545 --> 00:36:55.005 So I think it's just like over-communicate. And then the one big learning I'm 00:36:55.005 --> 00:36:59.025 having, which is like kicking me in the ass, document, document, document. 00:37:00.217 --> 00:37:04.157 Because it's like what happens from our lips gets generalized, 00:37:04.237 --> 00:37:05.257 deleted, and distorted. 00:37:05.777 --> 00:37:08.857 What gets put to paper, a loom video that someone can go back and watch, 00:37:09.017 --> 00:37:15.737 a document, an artifact, a design, a thing, people can anchor that in a much 00:37:15.737 --> 00:37:20.217 more memorable way versus like, we just talked for an hour, like, what did he say? 00:37:20.597 --> 00:37:23.297 And then if you're in a bad mood, maybe you hear it one way and I'm like, 00:37:23.397 --> 00:37:24.597 no, Kira, I didn't mean it that way. 00:37:24.677 --> 00:37:26.997 What I really just meant was this. And you're like, but you were just having 00:37:26.997 --> 00:37:29.597 a tough day that day and you just heard it a certain way. 00:37:30.177 --> 00:37:32.837 But if you went back and you're like, oh, Pete was saying we have to agree on 00:37:32.837 --> 00:37:34.997 these three items. I know Pete's this kind of person. 00:37:35.637 --> 00:37:39.937 Oh, if I had just written that down, if we had just agreed on that. 00:37:40.337 --> 00:37:45.017 So that's where I think that companies can do things like recording meetings, right? 00:37:45.077 --> 00:37:48.577 Because when people have access to meetings, they feel like things are more 00:37:48.577 --> 00:37:50.877 open. They feel like there's things aren't being hidden, right? 00:37:51.157 --> 00:37:54.697 I think the death of most modern companies comes from information asymmetry. 00:37:56.497 --> 00:38:00.377 Okay. So like the leaders having way more information than everybody else or 00:38:00.377 --> 00:38:03.317 just different pockets of people having, yeah. 00:38:03.437 --> 00:38:09.377 Yeah. It's not even leaders. I think that like the more open information is, 00:38:09.477 --> 00:38:10.717 the more people can contribute. 00:38:11.097 --> 00:38:13.837 Right. And I don't think people ever meet, it's not malice, right? 00:38:13.897 --> 00:38:17.277 It's like, I'm DMing you because I don't want to bother the whole group in Slack 00:38:17.277 --> 00:38:19.777 or whatever comms tool you use. 00:38:19.857 --> 00:38:24.617 But by doing that, we make a decision. we make an agreement and the team doesn't 00:38:24.617 --> 00:38:27.177 know about that. And if you or I forget to close that loop, then, 00:38:27.998 --> 00:38:31.518 Now the whole team is either doing something to step up and now that's extra 00:38:31.518 --> 00:38:34.798 work that they shouldn't have to be doing or if we just communicated it. 00:38:35.258 --> 00:38:40.118 So what I say is almost nothing should be private. 00:38:40.638 --> 00:38:43.338 Yeah, one-on-ones, of course, should be private. 00:38:44.498 --> 00:38:48.898 Things that are sensitive should be private. But if we're all working on a project 00:38:48.898 --> 00:38:52.118 together and we're a project team or we're a product team or whatever kind of 00:38:52.118 --> 00:38:57.058 company you are, what is the harm in doing that in in the open. 00:38:57.478 --> 00:39:00.378 I would argue doing it in private is actually creating more harm. 00:39:00.818 --> 00:39:05.758 And lack of information breeds distrust. When people think that things are happening 00:39:05.758 --> 00:39:08.598 outside of them, distrust happens. 00:39:08.898 --> 00:39:12.718 And I've seen the good and the bad of that across both sides of the aisle. 00:39:13.238 --> 00:39:18.618 Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. You're making me rethink how I structure my 00:39:18.618 --> 00:39:24.338 Slack channels now. Now, so you switching gears a little bit, 00:39:24.358 --> 00:39:27.998 you have this four green lights system. 00:39:28.198 --> 00:39:33.478 So can you explain what that is and what it means for your team and your working 00:39:33.478 --> 00:39:35.038 culture? A hundred

percent. 00:39:35.618 --> 00:39:38.018 This is a system that I've rolled out in a lot of my clients. 00:39:38.258 --> 00:39:40.738 I've rolled it out with a couple of my companies. 00:39:41.018 --> 00:39:44.778 And I think that it works for a lot of different type of companies. 00:39:44.878 --> 00:39:48.078 I'm not saying it's a panacea, but I'm saying this is our system, right? 00:39:48.518 --> 00:39:54.598 One, I think that visual, actionable, clear systems are important, right? 00:39:54.678 --> 00:39:59.618 So nothing, in my opinion, has been more memorable for the human experience 00:39:59.618 --> 00:40:00.678 than a traffic light, right? 00:40:00.778 --> 00:40:04.138 If you're an adult and you can drive a vehicle, you've probably seen some kind of a traffic light. 00:40:04.418 --> 00:40:08.258 You understand that red means stop, green means go, and some other version of 00:40:08.258 --> 00:40:10.158 a color means something else, right? 00:40:10.478 --> 00:40:13.678 So I think that, and obviously, if. 00:40:14.927 --> 00:40:16.147 Many of these tools, the way they 00:40:16.147 --> 00:40:21.267 present themselves also have different affordances for different colors. 00:40:21.387 --> 00:40:24.667 So obviously, if someone has a color blindness, they can see the version of 00:40:24.667 --> 00:40:26.847 what that red is. So I want to just be clear, I don't want to come at it from 00:40:26.847 --> 00:40:29.347 an ableist mentality so I don't get attacked later. 00:40:29.527 --> 00:40:32.067 But what I would say is four green lights. 00:40:32.527 --> 00:40:36.087 First green light is about our team. Take care of your team, 00:40:36.187 --> 00:40:37.427 they take care of your company. 00:40:38.307 --> 00:40:41.167 So the first green light is team. Are we green, are we yellow, are we red? 00:40:41.327 --> 00:40:43.847 I'll go back into detail on each of these in a second. So that's the first green 00:40:43.847 --> 00:40:46.207 light. The second green light is our client or our customer. 00:40:46.347 --> 00:40:47.527 In our case, it's our client. 00:40:47.747 --> 00:40:50.227 In your case, it might be your customer. It depends on how you structure. 00:40:51.387 --> 00:40:54.847 Third green light is the impact, the positive impact we're making on their business. 00:40:54.947 --> 00:40:58.627 We get paid to do something. Are we delivering value for that thing we're getting paid? 00:40:58.907 --> 00:41:03.527 Whether we sell expo markers or agency services, same kind of thing. 00:41:03.567 --> 00:41:04.207 Are we delivering impact? 00:41:04.947 --> 00:41:08.907 Value exchange, mutual value exchange. Last but not least is profit. 00:41:09.047 --> 00:41:11.147 I believe profit is not a goal, all profits are result. 00:41:11.767 --> 00:41:14.627 At the most simple level, if you take care of your people, your people take 00:41:14.627 --> 00:41:15.827 care of your clients and customers. 00:41:16.387 --> 00:41:18.747 If your people are taking care of your clients and customers working together, 00:41:18.947 --> 00:41:21.207 you're probably going to have a positive impact on the business, hopefully. 00:41:21.407 --> 00:41:23.887 And if everything's working together in unison, there's transparency, 00:41:24.047 --> 00:41:26.767 you're probably going to have a profitable company in both situations. 00:41:27.087 --> 00:41:30.527 So I'd say rolling that out has been the single greatest thing that I've seen. 00:41:31.546 --> 00:41:36.986 As a founder, as a CEO, as a leader in helping to push things up and to the right. 00:41:37.366 --> 00:41:40.366 And by having the traffic light system, by being openly transparent, 00:41:40.626 --> 00:41:41.806 writing about it publicly. 00:41:42.166 --> 00:41:45.106 So I wrote this article. It's 100% public. You can read about it. 00:41:45.126 --> 00:41:45.966 Anyone can read about it. 00:41:46.626 --> 00:41:49.766 It's a public declaration statement. And everyone that works at this company, 00:41:50.166 --> 00:41:52.046 every month, we go through the four green lights. 00:41:52.386 --> 00:41:55.126 So we know that it's a staple in the organization. 00:41:55.686 --> 00:41:58.686 And what I ask in almost every meeting is, how are you doing today, Kira? 00:41:58.826 --> 00:42:01.986 Green, yellow, red. and it's a qualitative test to understand, 00:42:02.166 --> 00:42:05.606 you know what? Maybe you had a pipe burst in your house and you're having a really tough day. 00:42:06.286 --> 00:42:09.006 Maybe I shouldn't be super hard on you today. Maybe I can help you out a little 00:42:09.006 --> 00:42:13.186 bit. Maybe I could take something off your plate because then it's reciprocal. 00:42:13.426 --> 00:42:16.926 Then if I have a tough day, which everyone does, then people trust each other 00:42:16.926 --> 00:42:17.626 to have each other's back. 00:42:17.846 --> 00:42:20.326 So I think that those green lights or yellow lights, red lights. 00:42:21.906 --> 00:42:23.706 Signals, in my opinion, save companies. 00:42:24.486 --> 00:42:30.526 Signals save companies. Lack of signals creates stress, Too much stress breaks the system. 00:42:30.626 --> 00:42:32.946 A broken system leads to a broken company. 00:42:33.866 --> 00:42:37.606 Yeah, it's real interesting how you think about that holistically and not just 00:42:37.606 --> 00:42:40.746 like, you know, the short term direct impact, 00:42:40.926 --> 00:42:44.746 but the longer term, you know, this is how what I'm doing right here, 00:42:44.886 --> 00:42:49.526 checking in on all of my team members on a regular basis or having everybody 00:42:49.526 --> 00:42:53.826 check in with each other, you know, changes all the downstream effects of the 00:42:53.826 --> 00:42:56.066 system and affects the whole business. 00:42:56.686 --> 00:42:59.486 Yeah. And let me go one step deeper, right? It's not just about talking the 00:42:59.486 --> 00:43:01.126 talk about walking the walk this year. 00:43:01.246 --> 00:43:07.846 We fired over

four clients because they were directly resulting in lack of team satisfaction. 00:43:08.866 --> 00:43:15.206 So we, we have turned down or fired millions of dollars worth of business this 00:43:15.206 --> 00:43:18.686 year alone, specifically because it was not good for the team. 00:43:18.746 --> 00:43:21.026 It was not good for the vision. It was not good for the company. 00:43:21.967 --> 00:43:27.127 In a very general sense, what were they doing that was impacting team satisfaction? 00:43:27.627 --> 00:43:33.047 No, you don't want to call out any clients, but just a vague, overarching summary. 00:43:33.727 --> 00:43:36.767 I'll give you a really good example without sharing anything proprietary. 00:43:37.247 --> 00:43:41.487 So they were making promises and commitments to us that they weren't delivering on. 00:43:41.647 --> 00:43:48.267 And then they would send us what I like to call late-night angry emails days 00:43:48.267 --> 00:43:50.987 later, trying to get the teams working nights and weekends. 00:43:51.967 --> 00:43:56.607 You know, they're just, they were trying to let our dysfunction be their dysfunction 00:43:56.607 --> 00:43:57.687 become our dysfunction. 00:43:58.447 --> 00:44:01.587 And at the end of the day, I was not, you know, shit rolls downhill, 00:44:01.667 --> 00:44:03.487 as they say, it's a stereotype for a reason. 00:44:03.767 --> 00:44:07.027 And I was not allowed to, I was not about to let their shit roll downhill just 00:44:07.027 --> 00:44:08.187 because their dollars were green. 00:44:09.227 --> 00:44:12.267 Now, a lot of CEOs might hear this and say, you know what, that Pete guy, 00:44:12.327 --> 00:44:13.607 I would never want to be on my company. 00:44:14.327 --> 00:44:18.087 And cool. Bye. A lot of people might hear that and say, you know what, 00:44:18.107 --> 00:44:19.247 I really liked the way this guy thinks. 00:44:19.247 --> 00:44:25.927 Hi so i think that's that's where i'm at great people are really hard to replace, 00:44:26.607 --> 00:44:31.807 great clients are really hard to replace bad people bad clients not hard to 00:44:31.807 --> 00:44:40.367 replace in fact i would argue you should replace them yeah that makes sense so generally i like to, 00:44:41.307 --> 00:44:46.667 turn this translate this into action steps so let's do it you know suppose we're 00:44:46.667 --> 00:44:56.787 like talking into a B2B marketing leader or CEO and they want to start implementing self-care and better. 00:44:57.887 --> 00:45:04.947 Wellness programs into their culture, as well as things like your four green lights system. 00:45:05.227 --> 00:45:09.147 Step-by-step, what would you have them do in order to see that through? 00:45:09.727 --> 00:45:13.727 First, you have to start with the real goal of the organization. 00:45:14.007 --> 00:45:16.907 Why do you exist? What are you trying to do? Where are you trying to get to? 00:45:17.447 --> 00:45:23.647 I think you have to design a company around the vision, not the vision around the culture. 00:45:24.087 --> 00:45:29.247 I think in a lot of ways, the first place to start is what does success look like? 00:45:30.087 --> 00:45:33.787 Paint that picture, define what that success looks like, and then figure out 00:45:33.787 --> 00:45:38.327 a way to make that success happen in a way that creates a healthy, 00:45:38.427 --> 00:45:40.467 contributory, participatory environment. 00:45:41.167 --> 00:45:46.007 And then from there, depending on the company, the region, whatever they're 00:45:46.007 --> 00:45:51.147 doing, then from there, you start to design a program. You can't start with a wellness program. 00:45:51.647 --> 00:45:55.447 You have to start with a vision. You have to start with success criteria and a roadmap. 00:45:55.707 --> 00:45:59.587 And then you have to back into, okay, well now, in order to make this happen, 00:45:59.647 --> 00:46:03.547 we have to have the greatest team of X, Y, and Z types of people. Okay, great. 00:46:03.647 --> 00:46:06.367 How do we attract the greatest team of X, Y, and Z type of people? 00:46:06.447 --> 00:46:09.207 Okay. hey, what does that mean for our competition, our benefits, 00:46:09.367 --> 00:46:11.427 our structures, our flexibility? 00:46:12.467 --> 00:46:13.627 How do we... 00:46:15.324 --> 00:46:18.344 Contribute to creating the kind of culture the kind of environment that 00:46:18.344 --> 00:46:21.164 we believe that needs to happen to support this initiative or 00:46:21.164 --> 00:46:23.884 goal because if you try to do that then you're 00:46:23.884 --> 00:46:28.164 just like benefit washing right where you're just trying to be like like there's 00:46:28.164 --> 00:46:30.664 been places remember back in the day that we used to try to hire me like years 00:46:30.664 --> 00:46:35.224 ago when i was like on the market and it was like they would promise you the 00:46:35.224 --> 00:46:38.944 foosball table and the stock kitchen and every possible thing you can think 00:46:38.944 --> 00:46:43.784 of dry cleaning services and you know chair massages and all this other stuff. 00:46:44.004 --> 00:46:48.984 And like those kinds of perks, the one thing that you don't see written is we're 00:46:48.984 --> 00:46:53.484 going to literally work you until you're dead because we do not want you to leave this building. 00:46:54.604 --> 00:46:58.744 That's what a lot of companies have done historically is, you know, 00:46:58.744 --> 00:47:04.884 they, they try to over perk or overpay because they're going to crush you in the process. 00:47:05.444 --> 00:47:08.444 So I think that that's where like the, you know, it's like greenwashing, right? 00:47:08.484 --> 00:47:12.904 Like let's make everything green, but really, are you really green? 00:47:13.044 --> 00:47:13.724 Do you really believe in that? 00:47:13.964 --> 00:47:15.984 So I just think that it's important to go a little bit deeper, 00:47:16.204 --> 00:47:19.944 be a little bit more conscious capitalist, as you see the book here in the back. 00:47:20.104 --> 00:47:23.504 So yeah, again, I don't pretend to have all the answers. 00:47:23.944 --> 00:47:27.364 What I can tell you is what's worked for me and what helped me sleep well at night as a leader. 00:47:27.804 --> 00:47:31.604 But I just want to get 1% better every day. And I think the best way to do that 00:47:31.604 --> 00:47:37.164 is by asking questions, listening into my teams, talking to smarter people than I am in different areas. 00:47:37.604 --> 00:47:41.204 So I can get as diverse as possible with my team and my experience. 00:47:41.684 --> 00:47:45.284 I've got a lot to learn. I think every company does, but I think I'm committed 00:47:45.284 --> 00:47:48.904 to growth, committed to being 1% better every day. 00:47:49.004 --> 00:47:51.704 And that, I hope my team knows and believes about me. 00:47:52.164 --> 00:47:56.464 Oh, awesome. Yeah. I really, really appreciate this conversation, Pete. 00:47:56.644 --> 00:48:01.064 And as we're wrapping up, I'd just like to shine a spotlight on you and your 00:48:01.064 --> 00:48:06.644 projects and like to know what, where people can get in touch with you or how 00:48:06.644 --> 00:48:09.284 they can find out more about what you guys do. 00:48:09.544 --> 00:48:14.184 I appreciate that. So what I would say is if you want to find out more about 00:48:14.184 --> 00:48:17.424 me specifically, I'm just Pete Sena on every channel, LinkedIn, 00:48:17.724 --> 00:48:21.584 Twitter X, PeteSena.com is my personal site. 00:48:21.704 --> 00:48:26.544 I do a free newsletter that I launched, which is like where I publish my wins 00:48:26.544 --> 00:48:29.464 and losses and successes and failures, just because I want to share with of 00:48:29.464 --> 00:48:31.284 the world what's working and not working for me. 00:48:32.324 --> 00:48:35.904 If you're looking for an amazing group of people to help you transform or grow 00:48:35.904 --> 00:48:39.124 your business or brand, head on over to digitalsurgeons.com. 00:48:39.284 --> 00:48:42.424 Digitalsurgeons.com is the company I started 20 years ago. 00:48:42.624 --> 00:48:46.224 We've got a great leadership team running that, great team contributing on a daily basis. 00:48:46.884 --> 00:48:50.644 They use the Four Green Light system, among other things we talked about today. 00:48:50.824 --> 00:48:54.924 So those are the things I would say. And what I would say, just stay curious, 00:48:54.984 --> 00:48:57.864 stay creative, and hopefully this is valuable for you and the audience that 00:48:57.864 --> 00:48:58.944 us into this now in the future. 00:48:59.524 --> 00:49:02.504 All right. Thank you so much, Pete. See you next time.