บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Exploring Positive Masculinity for Gender Equity with Chelepe Mocwana

know We are the from just briefly if I can tell that I come from labor law environment. So now I moved into the gender space. Then someone asked me to say how do these issues talk to each other? They talk to each other because issues of gender are there within the work space when we go for a meeting who's supposed to make tea for us when we sit in a meeting. Sure. Okay. Who's supposed to go and make photo copies for us when we are sitting in a meeting? You see those are the kind of issues that I realized were there but also realize that when I look at this labor law, it it has a men's lens, a patriarchal men's lens, not you know that feministic understanding, conception of what the law is. So I also had now moved within this space whereby now I'm able to integrate all of this to say how do I then I look at the law with that gender lens. You see not with a woman's lens, not with a gay man's lens, but being a heterosexual man, I look at it with a gender lens. I normally then what? appropriate that you know some of the colleagues within the feminist and gender scholars will say don't do that but I need to appropriate some of the theories and philosophies that come from the feminist scholars and the gender scholars in order for me to can deal for example the issue of equality sure is a patriarchal issue because we comparing apples with apples but the issue of equity for me is important equity says that I compare an apple with an orange you see and say these are two fruits then how do we deal with them how do I accommodate this orange with his ability to go into my eyes and bring out how do I deal with this apple whereby sometimes I need to have a knife to eat it because I don't have teeth. So you see now where the issue of equity comes. We look at how based upon the intersectionality of how to say what are what is the religion what is the ethnicity what is the language you see those issues impact in terms of how we look in terms for example the gender roles within society you see so that is how that is who you know from my side I say I look at issues and now from my side what is important is now I will say coming from the feminist scholars and gender scholars they say we need to have that reflexivity it means I cannot speak about the lived experience of a gay man whereas I'm not a gay man so therefore I will talk about my lived experiences you see so my lived experiences in a way also assist me in terms of then how do I engage within this space how do I engage with issues of gender equity you see now because that is where I can understand others whereby if I I'm selfaware of my privileges. If I'm aware, self aware of the power that comes with my heteronativity, how then do I deal with that to make sure that when I'm within the space of queer men, I don't make them to feel less, but they still feel that even if I'm a queer man, I'm still a man within the space. I can also portray my masculinity. So now I moved into the positive masculinity space to say why positive masculinity. You see, because that is where now we are trying to say as a society there are of challenges but positive masculinity from where I'm sitting it will be able to assist us as men to acknowledge and understand for example the issue of gender based violence if we can use positive masculinities values that are set up under it we'll be able in a way to decrease even the numbers when coming to issues of GBV issues of women you know h disempowerment within the work spaces so that is where I am just briefly in terms of you know the work that we do even myself in terms of how I relate even with the work and how it also with my life generally when I'm out there within society. Yes sir. And that is that is such a a wonderful way to speak on this because then you brought in race, culture, uh faith, you know, all of those parts that are so important to who a person is cuz you often just look at ah he's a man, he's a girl, he's a boy, and that's how we treat them. But that's never really the case, right? There's way more. And as a father of three, I mean that you you know the challenges very well. Um M you know I'm I'm raised by my mother and my grandmother you know and only now we because I'm starting or I've been speaking around these issues they now starting to see it in a way that I guess we we don't think about it is going through these things because we you know there's a bit of a disconnect there you know but then also bringing in the elements you know if you grow up without a father then automatically I think that's where the whole toxic masculinity came from, right? When those studies, the men's movement back in the 70s, toxic masculinity basically spoke to a man who is raised without a father, without guidance on how to negotiate his masculinity. So, I love that we're talking now about healthy masculinities or positive masculinity. And and I don't know, you know, is it right for us to just say positive masculinity because there's a range. I believe there's a broad range within positive masculinities, right? Um and and also when we talk about this idea of toxic masculinity, um I often have this this I don't want to say that I don't agree with it, right? But I have a challenge sometimes when I speak to boys and they say to me, "Ah, toxic masculinity." I'm like, "Okay, what what do you understand about masculinity before we get to the toxic part of it?" So, a lot of times I kind of get the idea that man, when we talk about this toxic masculinity, especially in a South African context, we've made this word so much more popular and we've kind of haven't really given boys the room to explore well what is the healthy side of masculinity, the positive side of masculinity and someone recently said to me that you know because of toxic masculinity uh platforms like mine are not seen right because then I'm talking about a different side of masculinity now but whereas the country is so used to rape murder abuse and everything else

that comes with that toxicity. So, are we then I guess we I don't want to say doing a disservice to masculinity, but how are we, you know, educating or bringing awareness by constantly using that term toxic masculinity? You see, I think you're raising very important issues because nowadays we see the resistance that is coming also towards those who are trying to say let us uplift men in that positive light where Because when you talk to men and boys sometimes when I go to speak to them they will say but why should we engage on this issue when the world sees as dogs the world see us as trash you see I say let us now begin to interrogate that you see let us not just assume that we are trash let us look also to say that person on the other side of the table when they raise this issue and say that you are toxic what is it that they specifically talking about the issue of masculinity itself and the issue of patriarchy you know in a way it due to the fact that it has been used in a negative way. It ended up now being associated with the negativities. For example, when you talk of feminism, those who are against women empowerment will say no, feminism is not right. Let us fight against it. It is there to fight against men. And I say femininity and masculinity needs to work together because even as myself as I have femininity, I have masculinity tra within me as a human being. That is how a human being basically is made. fight nature have set us up. So the issue now of the rejecting also of masculinity also now comes from that point as I say whereby there was that how can I say the convergence between toxic masculinity and what I call radical feminism because remember within the school of feminism there are a number of schools with feminism in itself. So when one looks at the schools for example the first school of feminism when it started it was basically men and women working together to achieve equality and say let us root out this evil that we see within our society. You see but now also came remember now also there was the issue of racism because with racism also now remember when black a black woman and a white man are sitting in the street and say we want the right to vote when the white man who sitting in the parliament comes now say no I'm going to only give it to white women Now black women are left alone you see a black man well we will deal with him later anyway because now he's coming with violence you see so they look in terms of that you see so out of that we realize that also numerous schools now came out of this as I say the radical school of feminism that is where I also see there was a change in a way in terms of but women when you engage with them they still understand to say that feminism they still also radical because we have African feminism and all of those you see so now with all of these masculinities because there are numerous masculinities like you see you see. So from where now I come in I say in order for us to have that understanding that we the feminist movement had at the start you know going back to it we will need to redefine what is masculinity what is manhood because what is manhood compared to my father is different. Yes sir. What is compared to manhood with me and my boys is a different picture. And all of them my boys remember they are different ages. So they all both you know the three of them will see the world in different lights you know different lenses. So we need now to begin to interpret and say as we are moving forward as we are saying that men and women we need to work together and all of I say society need to work because sometimes when you talk of women and men we tend to think that we exclude the LGBTQI community. So from where I'm talking now I'm including all of the communities I say let me move away from men. and talk about the community now to say as a community we need to find principles to say how do we define manhood how do I spoke to girls at a girls rest one time I say how do you define womenhood you see from us as women we look at what our mothers do we emulate and that is how we at times find to be this is what is you know motherhood this is what is femininity but as as men there are rituals also that come in that for example as a woman which ritual will say As a woman you have went through and now you are a woman. You see you are no more a girl. But as men we have those rituals that we have established you know to say this is what makes you a man. But those rituals do we still look at them to say do they make you a holistic man? I say to people when I go to the initiation school is part of my rituals of becoming a man. Sure that is not the ultimatum of being a man because when you come out of there I say to people yes you have come from the initiation school. Can you use that knowledge within the work? space can work within the work space because remember now you have been taught respect where you come from. You've been taught to say how does a man take care of himself within the whole community being a protector and a provider. But can we why do we still have toxic masculinity whereas now we have this institution. So one realizes that you go through life life is the one that will teach you what is it to be a man. Because I say look you go you at university after complete university you get a 50,000 run salary. You see, does that make you a man? But when I go back and I look at my community, I still see a guy who works at a construction site only any 600 run, you know, per month, but is able to take care of the family, even take their children through university. But you as a student, you are any 50,000 run while you at university, you impregnated a girl. That girl left university, you continue your studies. Now here you are, you you know you are rich or you are well off. Do you think back of what you left behind. Why do we have a lot of children that still when we look at the backlog at maintenance court it's going to take us

more than 10 years to leave the backlog but why do we have the backlog on maintenance whereas we are saying we are men we are we have this masculinity that says that we are protectors and providers where do we draw the line so my brother from where I'm sitting also as I say we are this even from our side you know as university and as students to say where do you draw the line in terms of our masculinity Yes sir. What how do we define our masculine? When I was or for example when I'm conducting an awareness campaign at a university and I go back to my the township and I conduct an awareness I will find different interpretations. The issue of class for example comes into play. Someone who's at university their father is paying them you know for them to be here so they don't worry about mine. But back at home the father who a child who's on us fast you can imagine the pressure. So how do we learn as men? you know to bring that social justice within the environment that we are living in. So we need to interpret this issue of masculinity myth really you see we need now to interpret to say what is a man because I I I it is my submission that some of the normalization some of the social norms that we have been given by our elders really they were wrong when I come to university when I see SRC member I see power I see someone who can get the university money to get the university car and get girls to do whatever they want. You see, so that in itself to say when we go into the leadership, how do we see leader? Because most of us as men we are in the leadership positions whether as CEO as directors of companies how then do we define our masculinity within that set of environment where we identify as that we look at our intersectionality. We become aware of our class, our race, our sex, you know, our gender and make sure that we bring positive masculinity because I agree with you that when I talk of positive masculinity I bring values such as empathy. Sure men are not empathetic. We are sympathetic. We listen to to arrive at a solution so that when come to me and say you know my baby mama just passed on now I have this girl that I need to take care of. As a man we are trying to find a solution. We are not I'm not listening to say what is it saying? You see that is where as men and women we need now is I say when we use that feminist principle of empathy. I'm able to listen at how say how does not have a challenge of money you see but how is worried to say what kind of values am I going to instill in this girl child growing up you see because now how is saying that I grew up without a father but now you know how then do I balance all of this environment to make sure that this girl child understand and have the ability to understand men and as I say that bring that empathy into the ethical of care that is a feminist care you see now does mean we are providers. Does a provider have the ethic of care or does a provider just mean that I put money on the table and that is that? Hence, most of us we have money but we are absent fathers. You know, I love what you what you're bringing in there that we spoke about this already, you know, when I see and and and they on the news and we saying these things or no, they're stealing from this country, they're stealing our minerals. But when I look at that man and I think beyond just the criminal activity that he's doing, I'm thinking man, this man is actually there because he's trying to provide for someone. There's a lot of care there, you know. He might not care for his own health. He might not care for himself that he might get injured. He's putting his life on the line for someone else. Um, you know, and and I'm not sure cuz I have not spoken to anyone there. But this is just me observing from the outside. And as you talking about this idea of provision and care, you know, uh, and and I can even link this back to um the migrant labor system, right? Whereas Maybe right now we don't have the very same thing. Whereas people are now actually sitting wherever they sitting and thinking, hey, there's opportunity there in Ptoria. There's opportunity there in Free State. There's opportunity somewhere. Let me take the chance and go do something out there. So sometimes I I I look at men and I like you saying, not sympathize, but empathize with what they going through and I'm like, "Yeah, man. You know what? There might be a little bit more of a story there than what I'm seeing or what's being portrayed in in the news. Because what you are saying also now let us just look at this other side of the coin. Sure. Women find themselves being with spaces whereby they don't own any property. Then we go and look at the issue of the land grabs squatter cams. Sure. When you go and look at the people that say in the squatter camps most are women that not have the ability to buy property but today they have a house on top of there that they can provide for the child. They grabbed the state land. It is a criminal activity. But we look at it from that gender lens. remember it is my property I come from a capitalist environment this is my property nobody even if I leave a farm of about 20 hectares standing there but if the government come and say can you please provide people the land for them to stay I say no no no tells me to say this is my land you see but now you see this kind of things when they pop to say do we just look at zama to say you know that is why even from my side you know with all due respect to our minister when he said these people are criminals they need to to be rooted out and all of that I say but do you know that I could be having a student here at university who's waiting for that guy to send him money for him to pay for study fees to pay for data for them to have access to data so that they can continue their studies to have money for do we ever think of that do we has you see I say I appropriate feministic principles because they allow me to say let us engage

with this Let me try to understand empathize with this situation and not be sitting here in my air condition office and the lies and feeling losing my critical theories and knowledges that I read in so and so said in this book he came with this that is not relevant to this guy who's there as I say even when I engage with students that sometimes when we talk to students we as academic institutions we tend to think that we are in a class situation you go and talk to boys about what is to be a man m You can't go and sit like we are in a conference. No, you see, we need to sit in an environment whereby we feel comfortable. I can look around without thinking to say when I move, I'm going to spill drinks on the table and all of that. I need to have an environment whereby we sit down, we engage proper. No slides. Thank you. Thank you. I was telling you we were talking about the issue of migrant labor and how it impacted and I say to the boys, you know what? When I grew up, I grew up in Tabanu my used to work in Ver as a construction worker there. You see, he will only come home in a fortnight. It means after 2 weeks that is when we see him. So now one would assume to say no but he was working there so he could not have been present. But I say to people my father was a present father even if he was not physically here because I make an example to say there was one day when a storm was coming it was only me and my older brother inside the house and my younger brother. My mother was at work. We look at and say hey the house is going to fly here because we could see from the other you know far from about kilome so you can see there are zincs flying in the air so you are already worried to say what is going to happen you know my brother my older brother pick up the phone call the old man and say yeah we see challenges you see you know my brother I say to you he was in but after speaking to him we were settled because we could feel his presence we could feel that he's with us you see he empathize with us. He understand the kind of situation that we are in. You see even after the storm has passed. You see when you called he realized to say that we are still you know calm and humble with when we are. So hence I say for me whether you are present physically or not but your presence as a father needs to be there. You see from my side how did that allow me to be present father? 2005 my wife gets unemployed or myself I get unemployed. It's only my wife who working I have a he was I think few months or so now when my wife go to work now I unemployed so I can't get I can't take the child to my mother my mother is staying 60 km away from where I'm staying therefore I need to make sure that I do the nappies of these children I b them in the morning before they go to crash I after taking them to crash you know babies when they laundry is too much I put the laundry on the wire you see that in itself never removed my my masculinity but it assisted me to understand my masculinity because now my boys now have they grow up are able to come to me and say hey my dad you know I have this girlfriend I don't understand what is this girlfriend you know how how do I relate with him because of the fact that they know that our father is always there even if I don't physically see him but even I was surprised two weeks back I was supposed to attend the workshop in East London they were worried to say hey when are you going to come back I say these guys even now they're still concerned when I'm going to come back. You see, so that can see and show that also now they also beginning to integrate the empathy in terms of the work that we do. You see, so the issues of migrant labors, the issue of fathers not being upset being present, it has it impacted on us as men and boys. You see, because sometimes they ask me to send you a man, but where I come from, I don't even know what is a man because I only talk to in a corner when we are smoothing. That is when I get to understand the values that underline men. You see even when I remember now as we believe that a child does not only belong to the mother and the father but belong to the community. Yes sir. So from my side when I grew up even if stop doing that I will listen. You see but now we have moved as a society whereby my children are my children. They don't you know your children are your children will deal with them. So we also need to go back as uncles as brothers as we also begin now to come in and say My sister the baby daddy left him with this child but I need to be a father towards this child. I need to show what is positive masculinity. I need to show what is it that makes one to be a man. You see so our work as men does not only deal with only the biological. It extends when we say we are providers are we only providers from a capitalistic point of view because socialistic point of view says to us I am a father to the community. Sure. A mother is a mother to the community. need you see now. So that is where we are you know as a society to say that our challenges are began. We need to begin to redefine where we are where we are going in terms of you know gender roles how we relate as men and women how we as men and boys you see as men and girls now I have a granddaughter who a girl so you can manage a granddaughter now the dynamics are changing people you are spoiling this child because boys girls are are raised differently. I we have a little a bit more softness for the girls, right? Exactly. And and and here's something that I that I want to I want to just maybe while we on that um girl raising girls and boys, you know, when I was I was going through this uh GBV report that came out, was it last year? There there's something that really caught my eye there and I I I want to just get into it. Maybe it should have been something for later, but since you brought up uh your boys and having a granddaughter now, I I read there that and and I don't know if anyone's seen

this and please correct me if I'm wrong there, but the the very beginning of that report where they talk about the sexual abuse and physical abuse experiences of young boys and girls, it seems that boys experience more sexual and vi and violent or physical abuse than girls. But then that report then only goes on to speak about, you know, interventions directed at women and girls. So, so to me then I'm like, okay, well, there's there's a bit of a gap there because of reporting, because of lack of I mean, the fear of and the shame of going to a police station and saying that, hey, you know, someone mishandled me or mistreated me. But I also think, you know, I I mentioned this in one of the circles that we run with some boys and, you know, they we had this conversation around sexual performance. And if then you don't get an erection. There's something wrong with you, right? And I said, "Okay, that that's interesting, but you boys can't be going through that. You're too young. You know, boys are 19, 20. Come on, boys. What's going on?" Right? But one boy in there said that, "No, man. You know, man, I understand maybe things are not working." But the other part could be maybe your spirit is not connecting well with this girl and you might not have any issues physically. So then that gave me a very different lens this boy is now bringing spirituality into this thing. Now it's beyond just you know the physical type of thing. So then you know when when you hear those type of conversations and how boys are now yeah as much as we saying there's a lot of harm that's happened to these boys but when they grow up there's a lot of variety in terms of how they negotiate themselves how they express themselves even um I don't know what what how what you've got to say around that. Yeah. I think it also start with that misconception of saying that boys are hypersexualized or hypersexual you see and I say men also go through those stages whereby you'll be you know you'll be the stallion you know and you know yourself that the stallion I can do it three times a day and this past weekend on Sunday I had a training of peators here on university and I said to them you know when you reach the age of 40 going upwards you'll only have sex once a month and they said you are lying that will never happen and I said that is true because when you reach that age now you don't have time to focus on all of you realize that you know what sex is part of it sex is not it you see because even we tend to think that a relationship is only based on sex marriage is based on sex when one of the parties begin not to perform properly the other one begins to look outside or even decide to say let us get a divorce you s normalization and socialities that comes with that and some of it also comes out of pornography you see watching a lot of pornography and assuming that pornography is real and I say to the students pornography is just acting there's no and biology has proved that there's no man

who does not use any steroids or any sub sub supplements can have sex for more than an hour my brother you you are crazy there's there's something wrong there brother there's something wrong there with you are not enjoying it and I'm asking myself is the other person enjoying it now when you are having sex for an hour with them you see they could have climaxed an hour ago so now you are still there where because even I was talking to my the other day we were watching this program on TV that this guy drank Viagra and now you could not come down sure because it was for about 24 hours I say you see that is where the challenges come with this thing of pornography wanting to be the stadium so also as you say we need to change how those norms that you know we grow up up with because that is where also the problem comes. A boy says no when a girl takes off her dress therefore it means I need to have sex. I said to them this weekend my brother you might having sex with her but do you know that in the morning when we go to the police station and we begin to do the forensic and we apply the law that when she say that you have raped her there is evidence of rape there. True. And I say to them be a man and I you know I normally quote this idom that when you are a you see I said to my boys you see today I'm able to provide for you I'm able to when you need whatever you need an iPad I can buy it for you do you know why I was able to do that because I was a fool I was a coward you see I said to them let me go and show you what I grew up with still back at home when I go back home in I make sure that I have 100 made of five run coins or two run coins so that I can give him f to go and buy along to give him f to go and buy something. You see I say those those were the clevers. So in life one thing that you must shy away from things that will create because one of we have one case whereby female student said to this guy after doing the very same thing and all of that he said what is she doing? She's now probing his masculinity provoking his toxic masculinity that he needs to come out and they ended up having sex in the morning she went and claimed rape and the boy comes here and say how do I deal with this? I say you know what I normally yes when I was your age maybe I could have also have done that I understand but my brother even open up the window and run away true but they say but it's my room I say yes it is your room run go and get your other brother say I'm going to sleep here tonight here at your place I have a problem here at my fl the police and say I need you to evict someone from my place because now you see us as men we don't take accountability for ourselves we also want to take accountability for other you do it for her you not do it for you it's not for you it's not for you what is it that you want you don't want it you see so sorry to cut you know you're bringing up man I love this point and if you're listening to this man and and just be honest with yourself I'm sure you have had incidents like this, right? Where someone has maybe but there was a day where and you just took advantage, right? But I but but but there also instances where and I'll bring it up because that's happened to me and you said it, you know, there's a girl there who says even if I took my clothes off in front of this guy, he's not going to do anything. And she's saying this in the office, you know, now I'm sitting there like am I supposed to now react somehow to this girl? Am I supposed to now call her afterwards and say, "No, let's go home and let me show you. No, let me perform now that role that you want me to perform." Then in that in in that moment, cuz now I'm like, "Hey, what do I do?" So, so it's interesting to hear saying to these boys, if if if you have no other option, just get out of there. Send your boys a text. Please come and get me. I'm dealing with The crazy you can even say it and I think you know what you are raising yes is in terms of saying that being tempted and not wanting to run away and being felt to be little. I remember even we were students we having a trip to go to Kimali. One of the girls in the bus said you know within the bus looking at me say what does that say? It says to you You look like you're a weakling. Therefore, anything you can't do anything I can show you. And you know sometimes I sit down and think and say if I went and did what this girl wanted when we go back to the court because now coming as a law student I realize you say that hey I would have complied with all the elements of rape. Sure. You see so what then do we do you see? So as men we need also as I say root to our social of being tempted to be tigers to be lions and I say but a lion is always has a female lion it's not only a male lion so when now you stop thinking that a lion is only a male it also involves a female you see so we need to move away from that thinking you see when we also need to interpret this concept of a provider and protector because it also comes there whereby you are men you are strong the toys that we buy for boys guns go play outside on the trees go drive a a girl we buy a a t beer. Why can't I buy a t beer for my boys? I saw that with my wife as I said that I had three boys. All of them had ters you see and they when they go to sleep they will cuddle with them and I said okay this is bas because now when you go to sleep in winter sometimes you will just need you know something to exactly. So that is where it also it was not a matter to say that she was sending them into girls. They were still boys doing what boys do playing whatever boys do but she was also bringing in that understanding towards them to say that you can these things do not belong to boys or girls. I was sending in a queue. A child says to her mother as girl child please buy me a gun. The mother say no girls don't play with guns. I say why don't girls play with guns? What if she's aiming to be a police officer? Sure. As

much as a boy when we are playing with guns we are police officers fighting robasmos. So she also when the boys are playing she wants also to be involved but she wants to have her own gun also as a police officer while playing. with the other boys and girls you see. So we need also to look at how we socialize our children. What do they do we bring up you know within them? This issue as I say of being a protector and a provider. What does that mean? Has boys ended up thinking that in order for me to show that you know I'm a protector and a provider. I need to be physically strong. We cannot deny that. But emotional strength where is our emotional strength? Our cognitive strength where is it for? Because we ended up sometimes even can raping because we don't want to use our cognitive ability. You see now? So we need to have as men begin to teach boys to say that this thing of thinking that as men hence even when you talk of gender based violence who are the perpetrators it is men. The first thing that you raise that when you look at the from the RC it says that men and boys are going through this but we only see girls you know being interventions only focused on girls. Yes we understand that girls through patriarchy through historical reasons. They are the ones that are at the worst point or you know of because now even this morning we we read newspapers report of a pastor raping a 14y old, a pastor teacher raping a three-year-old. You see now we need to deal with those things because that is where the problem comes to say you are a father, you are a protector and a provider. Why do you look at this child as a sex object? Sure. Because that is basically what you are doing. You see so it is as a result of now we need to deal with these issues because girls are still at the end of the when coming to issues of GPV as a men we are still suffering now if you can go and engage with men and boys they can tell you to say that when I was a vision the person that took out my virginity I was 14 years old she was a 20 year old girl or sister you see now but nobody will talk about that because as boys say but we don't realize to say that how does that impact in terms of our sociological and psychological well-being as we grow up you see now because anyway what is the difference I had when I was 14 so even when I'm still have a 70 year old you see so we need to re look in terms of this var that guide us because even as boys and men and boys there are challenges of GBV I have cases here at university whereby come and report to say I was raped by a girl a staff member female staff member said I to give her sex for her to can allow me to pass my course. You see they are still there bubbling under but patriarchy due to the fact that we as men also when you talk of patriarch we don't want to say we want to get rid of the negative elements of patriarch we are just looking at patriarchy holistic we need to get rid of it whereas we don't realize we say that you need still need to be a patriarch as a man you still need to provide and care but let us take those negative elements out of it that will then lead us to have that understanding of posit whereby you know we will men will not be seen as the face of gender based violence. Men will not be seen as trash. Hence we find ourselves being at the corner just boys when you ask them just I'm just here to get my degree and get out of here because anyway as a boy I'm not recognized back home I'm not recognized. I read on the media every time is boys who are creating problems for society. So as a man what should I contribute because I'm a problem to society. You see? So we need now as as men look at it and Let us take this on our own shoulders. Let us be accountable for ourselves. Let us be accountable for the social norms. Stop being bystanders. She said no. Then I decided to say what do you think? Even I took you to wherever. So after that I bought you something. Therefore I have the right to ask you. We need to teach men to say that is not acceptable. You see the same way we would want women to also speak with the same voice because I have women and staff members who are saying I only have boy children. I'm scared. I'm scared that tomorrow there could be a police van in front of my house coming to pick up this boy. You see, I'm scared that this boy might be involved in a robbery. This boy might be taking crystal. Most men are the ones that commit suicide. I'm scared that I thought this thing was because my boys for example, you know, when you get to that age 19 years or so, they will be staying in their room doing whatever they are doing. Even myself, I used to do it. I'll be stay in my room listening to my little radio there, my music, you know, doing whatever I'm doing in my room. So even that women and mothers now are beginning to be scared to say what is our what our boys doing? You see now because they don't see them within the picture. You see a mother says to me, but I realize even girls do that. My cousin brother was talking to her the other day is always in her room. I told her she must sometimes come out of her room so that I and see her. I say just go and knock at the door. Be empathetic. Understand what? Even my boys someday when they come back from school or university, I will look at them say this man is not okay. I will ask him to say what happened at school today. Things are still okay and they will begin to shift from the real issue trying to say let me just get this old man out of my picture. You see now? But I begin to probe further. You see now just talk about something that is just general which happened in the townships. Hey, did you hear so and so passed on my engage, hey papa, it is not only him, this guy they now begin to relate the whole history. You see now so we need to begin to in order to change that mindset also as men let us not just sit there and think to say that boys you know they will just come out and talk to about these

things. Women are able to pick up when a girl is not right. And I say to boys yes as men I don't know nature. Why did it created us like that? We think within one box we can't think out of the other box. I need to move out of this box with how to go into another box and begin to engage with the women are able to transcend all of the boxes. Hence they can cry and laugh at the same time in the same discussion. But us as men we are not able to you know think within. So we need also to look how we think how some of these things which we assume that they are natural they are natural. It's just that how we have tended up to be hence we assume that a woman's place is at home is a natural it's not a natural thing you see we have abanding abuing who went to the battlefield you see and for as women against colonialist against imperialist so this issue of saying that women I was even talking to my wife the other day we were listening to radio someone and say that and I said Okay. Before does it mean even from the garden of Eden was said was she only staying under that tree he was not moving to the other trees it was only Adam. Hence even the snake found her sitting there alone and was able to convince her when Adam was out there. You see where also the socialization now comes in whereby even now has been when sometimes you know I engage with student they will bring religion and say hey please people can we just take religion out of this because we going to now digress because now we going to come and want to justify patriarchy. Even women now come and justify m and patriarchy using religion using the Bible. Yeah. Using the Bible. So we need to change how we also look at things as I say my brother. You see now how do we define makes us to be men? How do we define how we engage with our girl child? You see now how do we cuz the other time someone I was saying that you know when you look at the girl child look at them as your mother, as your sister. But someone say, "No, no, no." But look at this is a perpetrator is a pervert. How do you expect a per the same pervert can still do that to their mother and their sister? So look at them from a human being perspective. Yes sir. You see understand that this is a human being who has the same needs that I have myself. You see now I just need to understand the very same thing of muo. Why do we have as a challenge as men nowadays? It's as a result of the ourselves that I will take you to and in the morning because I don't want to take you I give you 500 going cash you go back home that shows you the patriarchy that comes the lack of element of care and empathy in even how we relate to this issue then we say hey these girls in the morning they want they will one my brother if you go to the tavern to look for sex that is what you will get in the morning go to the t and have fun we must drink with ki and all of that and get drunk don't go to the t looking for sex my brother you going to be at that is where you're going to

end up being at. I want to I want to go back to to the story and and it's something that you touched on when we were starting up a bit earlier, right? That you know sometimes when when the funds don't come in, then it forces the the the students and especially the girls to go now out there and and try to figure out, okay, what can I do for myself? And you expose yourself to these men these patriarchal men as we saying these very immature men who are taking advantage um the boys that I speak to goheadfield they said the same thing that no man I mean these girls are asking us to take them out cream is a very expensive restaurant I'm like you guys are going to cream now in in first second year what happened to McDonald's like no they don't want McDonald's so this this we also creating a world for them as the men who are going to these universities to pick up these young girls. We're making it very impossible for the young men now to then say you know I like that girl saying whoever her name is how do I even go there without money without anything just to go propose. So that whole idea now it's it's for these boys I'm like yo I don't know what the varsity experience is like you know we were we didn't have to spend too much here and there. We smoked here and there, but it was never big establishments. So even the playing field has become so much more I guess pressurized for for these boys and girls. You know, I'll say the same. But then what do you think now this is forming or it's causing um for relationships going forward and especially speaking to GBV because then with that pressure obviously comes can I say loss of coping mechanisms then you know react in ways that are less than healthy you know because I'm now exposed to a situation that I don't I don't know the situation now you know from my side as I say I always use that principle of reflexivity and my lived experience from where I'm sitting I normally say to the boys when speaking this is not what I read in books and all of that be accountable for yourself accountable in a sense that whatever decision that you are taking we know that when we wake up in the morning you will stand for that decision. You see so the problem with us is that now as you say it has also been socialized and normalized in that fashion you see we go to this places we go to pick up girls we don't go there to have fun you see so and this has been caused by the previous generation like I sayucation by you never find them little you find them there something bigger places That is where they will spend this SRC money. You see, and the girls are looking at them also and say, "Okay, you come to me, I only have nas. I can't even buy you just a can of what what do you call this thing? Whatever the the pink ones that you know, I can't even buy the I can't even fruit I can only afford label and we can share. So that incept a problem because now when now has you know I used to grow up there will be girls who say don't talk to me and I say what is this girl saying now when I grow up I could pick up to say why are they saying these things because now as an older man I could see how the younger girls will want to relate with me and say you are the same age as my my last born. How am I going to face that boy if he finds out that I was having a relationship with you? You see, so you girls also have realized that because I had one residence and you talk about sugar syndrome that is not right but now I need senator n go to my mother and say mom I need this things mom say go find yourself a man who will buy these things for you. You see Because remember the father is not there even the child can go to the father and say that at the end of the month can you just put something aside for my senator pet please you see because the father is not used to engaging with the girl child on that level you see so we need just to take a step back because as I say we need to be accountable the issue of musu it's all about accountability self accountability don't be accountable for that girl be accountable for yourself you see as I say even if you brought her to a room and she's looking for money at that time of the leave the room. You see now don't even I say that is where it starts. Don't go there looking for sex. Sure. Go there after you have a phone take the numbers you call them in the morning when all of us are sober because remember now what becomes even now when you talk of issues of gender based violence comes the issue of consent. Yes sir. When you are under the influence of drugs and alcohol, you can't give consent because your judgment it is impaired. Your judgment you cannot accept and take accountability and acknowledge the consequences of your actions because concern say that I agree to do whatever I do with Ki but tomorrow when the police comes and say we are coming to get you I must acknowledge and take accountability for my actions. You see? So we need now to start there. also understand this concept of concern because I say to them yes you went with her to wherever you come back in the morning you had sex sh now she wants maro how should we be accountable now because at the end of the day it whatever is being said it's your word against her word we were not there we could not understand what happened you see so from your side when you go to these places as I say just you know talk to whoever you talk to have fun Even the girls, you know, in a way I said to them, you can't go to a nightclub and you won't have tax fair in your purse. No, but you want to come back drunk asking for trouble there. Yeah, you asking for trouble. As I said, even you as a girl child, be accountable for yourself. Hence, even you saw the law change and say if you are under the age of eight or if you above the age of 18, under the age of 25, you are at a high education institution, you are vulnerable. The reason comes from there. You see now because as high education You have realized that when you come

from high school you are still not aware of the the high education becomes a different world. So becoming a different world with different rules you need now to understand that. So hence we say we going to protect you even if you come to me and say but I'm above the age of above the age of 18 years I can have a relationship with whoever but it's an election. What does that mean implies in terms of disreputing the name of the university terms of the other students when they you having this romantic relationship with your lecturer. So we need now also to say we all of us we need to be accountable for whatever we do. You see now girls also I said to them this issue of yours of mu is going to come to an end because now we are developing principles legally. So whereby we can now dissect to say that oh this one only wanted never wanted anything you see now. So as a result because by experience you are able to dissect a case to say ah this one these are false. allegations you see. So we know when we can see you through your body language but there will be those that can convince you otherwise and if they convince the police otherwise and the court my brother you are gone there's nothing that you can do you are gone we cannot help you in any way so we need also to have that thing you see now as I say that when now we at we are at this places first thing is accountability for myself I need to be accountable for knowing that in the morning when I wake up I don't want 10 triple one looking for me you see so that is that is where I think we can deal with this issue as I say that the issue of GBV also end up being rife at times as a result of not understanding consent we were in a room she has undressed I have unressed suddenly she say she's no more interested yes my brother she's no more interested walk away don't come and say no daughter what I supposed to do I I had an erection. My brother, go and get ice in the fridge. Then you'll be fine, man. Go rub one out, brother. Man, go rub one out in the toilet there. You'll be fine, man. Exactly. Rather than having to rub it in in flame or wherever the prison that you going to go to, they might even show you how it has been rubbed. You see, so protect yourself when now she even when you have penetrated her and she said, "No, fet. Uhhuh. This is not going the way I want. You just remove yourself my brother. You might feel your dignity, your manhood is being impacted. Yes. But walk away. You see now because nothing is even if you might have those feelings, but in the morning when I see you, I'm still going to see the same man that I saw yesterday. You see, but if now you went ahead and you raped her and you said to me, "No, I was, you know, I had an erection. What could I have done? How do I then see you as a better man?" Because a better man understand this decision. A better man, a good man. a positive man with positive masculinity understand to say that yeah I need to stay away I just need to run away you hitting such such good points there because I often think about these laws that are are set around gender based violence rape and everything else and how they are I guess we can say that they're heavily skewed against men and it's good to talk about them and have conversations because then we know how to protect ourselves as you're saying accountability for yourself first, then you don't have to deal with all of those other problems. If you want to deal with those problems, then hey, man, don't be accountable, then by all means, right? You'll spend money on lawyers and that. So, so, so it's one thing for us to talk about it. And, you know, I keep on asking these questions a lot on the podcast and some people might find it offensive, but that's not the point. The point is to have this engagement for you to know what the laws are and what you need to do to protect yourself. So, I really appreciate it. Just remember also for injuries. The law has always been there to protect men. You see, when I read the law for myself as a man, I will feel comfortable with the legal provisions because remember the person who have written the law, the principles and the values. When I talk of a reasonable man in terms of the law, a reasonable person, we don't have a reasonable person even for that matter. We have a reasonable man, a bonus. But when we take it now to Latin, they call him like when you read and all of that, they will talk of a bonus familiars a reasonable man not a reasonable person. You see so the law in itself when you read it you will think that it is prot yes the provisions are when you read it from a man's perspective it will be in a way supportive it is now only that we are moving from that now area where we are see that we going to use the gender lens to look at this law even now taking us from our side as an institution we have a program which we call the gender agenda leadership whereby we look we don't look at the policy to say what does the recruitment policy of HR saying we look at the unwritten rules the practices you see now of those who are involved when now KG is leaving the university and does an exit interview I'm I don't care what's the whether he did it what I want to know is what did he say then how do I go and correct that you see now so we need now to understand that we need to deal with the law from those unwritten rules that the law brings you see now and stop ticking because we tick the boxes sometimes And we think we are right the boxes. It was found to be but the impact of was found not to be by the employment equity act you can read it and say it talks about gender equality and all of that and I say from my side I will be happy it talks about gender equity because that is where now I can bring the whole balance within the field and look at people to say if now I'm 5t tall and there's a wall which is 6 ft and a is 7 ft who must I bring equality says no bring both of them letters stand on them it means if you're 7 ft you're

going to see more than I'm seeing if I'm 5 ft you see so those who are 7 ft you don't give anything we give those who are 5 ft to say stand on this letter so that you can see what does the one who's because now we are acknowledging the privilege that is there to say that by virtue of you being that height and me being taller I am privileged because I can see things that you don't see you see now As a man, do I worry whether my baby is like my wife is lactating the baby during the day? A woman is worried physically her body is telling the breast are now beginning to swell. So it is there at the back of her mind but me as a man it is not there at the back of my mind. Hence even when we introduce the issue of paternity leave men said why do we need this leave? Sure you see we said we are now going to change it to be even 4 months so that must sit at home. look after the baby from the day that the child was born up until the 4 month period has ended the wife must go because remember when my wife is 4 months out of the work on maternity leave we are moving as a man within this space I'm moving my career is progressing within those 3 months so therefore we say now you as a man after the child is born I need to go back home stay with the child for 4 months or whatever let the wife go back to the work space let her career so that she can adjust because she is not worried. I can even bring the baby to the workspace and say go to the lactating room, breastfeed the baby. We don't have those because now the system is patriarchal. The laws are patriarchal. As I wanted to come to that point to say that up until the point whereby we look at the law with that feministic and gender lens, we will still having the problems of GBV, still having the problem of matriarchy. You see now because we are using the very same system that justifies the very same, you know, h sc within our society. Man, I love the broadness that you're bringing to this conversation because then I think you know when when especially talking about the law and the legal stuff that goes into this, a lot of us will go on social media and just tweet a bunch of stuff and we'll even get into arguments with people and we don't even understand who know but do you understand where the law comes from? So that's a big learning from me just uh understanding how patriarchal the law is in in it in its found ations, right? Hence even when we talk of decolonization, we are saying that we should decolonize it from that angle because when you look at an African society, when you look at from remember we are based on socialistic outlook. Yes sir. And those socialist outlook had those feministic elements within it. Hence the first thing that the colonist did was to take away the land. They took us we working in their minds as men. The women were staying back at home looking after the land, looking after the children. They are even that land you see now. How that in itself meaning our power is taken away as human beings. You see now so we need to look at all of these things within as you say holistically. So we cannot look at the law without looking at the unwritten rules without how as a society we engage with the law you see now then we just pass the legislation because mostly when I look at the legislation that sometimes come out of our parliament really you know it's surprising to say where did these people study their law I really asked myself where legislation study their law because when you look at it say you can't even apply mind critically to look at this to say how does it this thing is going to impact for example on women how it's going to impact on children but because it's the law we have it somewhere out there therefore we going to implement it so we need to reook at these things hence we will now move away even from the thinking that the gender based violence laws are there for only for men they are there for the society as men we have we are victims of patriarchy because we are now in our corner I can't be seen to go and report the matter the police station is going to just demean me the police officers that will be laughing at me calling even those who are on leave to say I'm fine come and hear what she is saying oh sure sure true my brethren hey man this track is doing us some some some huge injustice and I think for anyone who's who hasn't who's still in denial about it I think you know who's still in denial about patriarchy just take a look at your life and and the things that you afraid to talk about about the things that you're afraid to admit and just look at what patriarchy says and compare those two. I think then you'll find yourself in your own time in your own space having a very big discussion and and just reflection around how patriarch is affecting you. Exactly. Because the first even when I started to follow up the men up conversation the issue that we were raising was the issue of how as men we deal with bereiement because now the issue of bereavement it extend not only to us crying or my baby mama or my wife who has passed on is to say after this bereavement how do I deal holistically with the whole situation so that as a man because what happens when my wife dies I take the children to my mother to take care of them or to wherever even when you go and look at some of the court cases you will see the matriarchs and the mothers come in and say we want the children you see now but I say he's the one who brought his children to the world let him take care of his children why are you giving him the freedom. Now the baby mama is passed on. You are giving him the freedom to go and find another girl and for God his responsibility because the only thing that he does now is to bring money on the table. Grandmother will look after everything you see now. So the man up conversation also was interesting for me because it talks to that issue now which was very important for me at that time to say how do we as men with bereief men. I

say to boys you say you know the day that my father passed on we had a funeral on Saturday. My Brother I tell you on Tuesday morning I woke up and went to that man's grave and say hey why did you leave me because I could feel the gap that is there you see now I could feel to say that this element that has been there within my life it is no more there you see now so even at that time I was old I was 25 years old having two children you see now so one would say you are grown up as man why are you now you know but I could feel the vacuum in me you see now so the man up conversation was able Now to go say to me go back engage with the process in itself all alone. You see try to find out where you know what is it that you are missing out of all of this and build yourself up so that now you can be able to. So even now one of my brethren the other day his wife passed on. You know I cried with the man. The first thing that I called him I say him brother what happened? I could feel the pain of that guy. You see now we cried. I think we sat there for about 5 minutes. No one was talking. We were just crying on the phone. You see My brother, we every time I want to say something, the words could not come out. But it was only the pain that I could feel for this guy to say, "Hey, this man, I know him as a strong man. I know him that you know he's being there. He's a police officer. He's strong and all of that. But I could feel the vacuum. I could feel the pain. I could feel and as a result of that, I could empathize with this man and understand to say what is going through." You see now? And now to say when now I begin to be faced with this bereiement on my side, how will I handle it? You see now I due to the fact that I've engaged with this situation from an empathic point of view unable to understand how will I deal with it when my next brother now comes and say hey my brother I've lost you know the loved ones how then do we engage on that one without thinking that hey I'm going to commit suicide we are men and remember you know the other when was it yesterday oh it was Sunday one of the colleagues from one of the university said that as men you'll only know that we're going to commit suicide when we have committed it women will be talking about these things you will know that there's a ability but as a man the moment I say I'm going to commit suicide 2 days or so it is done so we need now to have that ingrained that is within us as I say you know the man up conversation also helped me in terms of saying how then we engage with issues of berement among us as men so we need to engage and talk about these things be vulnerable as positive masculinity say we need to be vulnerable the fact that we ended up having this lot of challenges within our families within our marriages is the fact that I can't be vulnerable to my wife she going to see me as a weekly but the moment I realized from my side personally that when I go even she said to me when every time when you hear something you'll always come to me and say I will always come to you my dear because really you are able to open up you able to empathize and understand what I'm saying without judging me without saying but he's able to understand where coming from so we need to bring those vulnerabilities also where I can even cry in front of the kids I can even cry in front of Ki when now I feel that now no this now has come you know to a point whereby I cannot say it anymore I can't do anything let me just let the tears roll must just flow man let them just flow my bre I really appreciate this one I I feel like we've breathed some empathy back into masculinity today um you know I I sent you a bunch of talking points but Mona you speak so passionately I was like you know what let's pass those let me go with this man here because You have so much wonderful knowledge and I I love the energy that you bring into this. You know when you say no slides let's talk let you speaking to Ki I have that approach because I understand you know what what I read in a book has a very different or lands very differently to me than how it would land for someone else. So me taking whatever knowledge that I think might be necessary for someone is actually quite pointless. You know let me ask them how they are negotiating life, what are they going through, what are they experiencing, how are they talking about themselves, and that makes for a much better conversation. Um, you know, you brought up stuff like consent. That was one of the topics that came up with with these boys because it's a real issue. So, I really love what you what you brought in here. But I'm wondering, I mean, you spoke a lot about these as well, but you know, in terms of now as you're about to close, getting boys more interested in these conversations around GBV without without now you know attacking what's being said but actually reflecting more on it you know what what has been what have you found successful in terms of uh the interventions that you've run I think what I've realized that it is working is using that principle of selfawareness you know when you are selfaware of your activities of your actions then you'll be aware of what is going on around you so I Say to them, it doesn't matter what you are afraid. We have read about toxic masculinity and whatever these things, but be selfaware. You see myself in order for me to understand issues of women within the space. I question my patriarch, I question my privilege. I question where I'm standing. And sometimes even when people says to me men are trash, I will say okay yes men are trash. But I begin to engage. I don't just leave it there. You see? So if now we are find ourselves within that space whereby We are always been boggled down as men to say that you are trash, you are dogs and all of that men will always be in their corner. So from us from my side when I engage with them I also create that safe space for them. Say you can raise whatever

you raise within don't look at me as an employee of the university me as another money from the engaging with you and in that way they able to can say these things without fear of now I need to be academic I need to have to follow this specific rules because I'm at a university we are just talking like we are just sitting under a tree you see now so I think from where I'm sitting the issue of empathy for example when one we we bring girls within the big channel girls will say I hate men we don't judge her we understand to say there's a reason why she's saying this let's interrogate the reason why she's saying this because we could find out the reason why she's saying that it is not even related to what us as we are sitting around the table it could be a thing between her and the father and all of God. You see, but as what we need to do as men, even if we have been put at our back foot, you see now our back is against the wall. Let us not fight. You see, now let us accept sometimes this criticism and engage with the criticism in a constructive way without defending you know I have boys who come and say but in the realiz works for me and I say how does it work for you? He say look we at the university I need to get my degree come out there. So I'm in competition now and remember competition is part of the toxic masculinity principle because as men if you're not wearing a Gucci and I'm wearing from Mr. Price we are not at the same level. You see now so now we need to engage he say that I use that only to achieve that you see then I say but how does then when we relate to others they say but I would not use that when I engage with my girlfriend when I engage with my sister I don't use the toxic masculinity I use it only to that particular boy. So all of this knowledge that is around us we need to begin to interrogate it. I was talking to my land manager yesterday to say what is social justice. Sure it depends from one individual to the other. But let us make sure that we have those common values that underlines what is it that we talk about when we talk of social justice when we talk about manhood when we talk about gender based violence. Let us not only see it from you know that angle whereby men are only perpetrators but see gender based is here most of men goes on a daily basis through emotional harassment and abuse but they don't say it you see now getting to be shouted every day just even when you shops you just get you say bring a loaf of bread it becomes a conflict you see now so how then do we deal with that so I think you know going forward as I say from my side I create that safe space for us to engage without being because I normally say you know myself I as a lawyer I come from the employment equity space mm or the equity justice. Therefore, I don't have the right or wrong answer. Yes, sir. I don't have a solution. I have the solution. We just need to sit around the table and say what is it that works for us as a community. You see, now let us thinking to say that no, there's a solution for everything. We we are within this space. We are trying to find ourselves. We are trying to find out to say as men who we are, how do we want to see ourel in the future? How do we want to see our grandkids relating to us women? You see now? So, those are the kind of spaces that we need to have spaces whereby we are not only just being judged because the resistance of men when coming to this is that thing that they feel that sometimes they are judged you know they always seniors if they are perpetrators and all of that they are dogs but let us as the older ones create a safe space for them to engage you see now using empathy when we come and talk to them we don't just come and say you're always doing this and this and this you see now no just throw a topic to them and let Let them engage. Let them be the ones. They must even facilitate you when you are there the conversation. That is how we'll get men out of their comfort zone and to talk about this kind of things. My brethren, a man, you hit it right on the just and I said it in the beginning. I think your passion and broadness that you talk about because then when you're only isolated to perpetrator and victim, then you have very little scope to work with. You know, I love that you bringing grandmothers, you're bringing a whole community into this because it affects everyone. It's not just boys and girls. It's not men and boys, it's a whole community and just getting that shared understanding. It's a conversation that we had with Ruken Podesta. I think it's the episode before the last one and we were talking just about that, right? Having ations in community. What are what are the issues that we are facing? What can we do? What do you know? Oh, you've got a perspective. Okay, now we've got 100 perspectives. Then how can we filter those down to then start having those common touch points that we know as a community? This is what we believe in. This is not what we want. This is not what we want as men or as boys or for our girls in the community. So I thank you my brother for your your passionate contribution. It's been a beautiful conversation. Thank you. so much, man. And please do the right thing. Like, subscribe, please share this with as many people as you can because we really need to get this man who said it himself. He's not just in the office, but he's on the ground with the people. Peace and blessings, man. Thank you. No, thank thanks my brother. So, thank you for tuning in and if you enjoy the show, please subscribe on Apple Podcast or Spotify and share with your friends and family to help us reach our fellow brothers and be part of their evolution as men.