บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S3E19: What Separates Champions From The Rest feat. Cliff Wilson

to the point where I found myself looking forward to the weight training sessions much more than the practices. 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:33.360 Um, and so I think that's where I kind of found my my love of training. 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.000 Um, and I knew instantly that I wanted to compete one day. 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:42.560 I I'm not necessarily built like a bodybuilder, but I knew I wanted to do it because I loved it so much. 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:53.840 So um, you know, I I I really focused um on trying to get a more intelligent approach just for my own competitive career. 00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:00.319 And so I spent about four or five years just kind of honing my own tactics before I even competed for the first time. 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:04.960 Um, during that time, I actually I bounced around from a couple of different jobs. 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.719 I owned my own landscaping business on the side of things. 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:16.159 Like I didn't fully know what I wanted to do yet, and I didn't know bodybuilding coaching could be its own career. 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:25.599 Um, a lot of people don't know this, but actually, what the first show that I ever um put a client in, um, it was just two guys that I was helping at the gym. 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:27.199 I wasn't charging them or anything like that. 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:33.039 I was just helping them out because I didn't know if I knew enough to be coaching, but um I knew I knew more than they did. 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:37.680 And so I helped them out, and then um one of my guys won the overall. 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:42.319 And Lane Norton had already been coaching for like six or seven years at that point. 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:46.960 He had been really established, and he came up to me and he's like, Man, he goes, Your guy was shredded. 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:48.719 He was like, You could make a good living at this. 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:52.800 And I was like, Hey, maybe I can make a good living at this, and I just went all in on it. 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.439 So this was 2000 and what, 2009? 00:03:57.759 --> 00:03:58.639 Yeah, 2009. 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.000 I put one guy, uh, one guy on stage in 2009. 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:04.319 Um, and it took off pretty fast from there. 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:08.800 I didn't realize at the time I was doing things quite a bit differently than what other people were doing. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.000 Peak week, pacing, just a lot of things. 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:16.959 At the time, I didn't realize, but there was a big like bodybuilding.com culture. 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:23.120 A lot of people were kind of doing their similar things, and I was not on the bodybuilding.com forums. 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:36.560 I was just doing my own thing, and so I wasn't really biased by anybody else's opinions, I was just making my own, and it took off quickly because I was doing things differently, and seven of the first eight

shows that I had a client in, I had an overall winner. 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.360 So it was just like you start picking up wins, and then everybody's like, oh, what's going on over there? 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:42.560 And I it picked up fast. 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:51.279 From from the time I put my first client uh in a show to the time I was able to quit my job and go full time was probably only a year, year and a half. 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:53.279 That's actually really quick. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.560 So you you did you did say that you make um very different peak weeks for your athletes. 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:05.759 So, like how much difference is a great peak um, you know, to make great physique if you have to put in like percentages. 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:12.720 Yeah, it uh in my opinion, um some well, first off, some people are more receptive to a peak week than others. 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:17.040 Um, I think some people it will make a bigger difference than others. 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:22.160 Um there are a couple of factors I think that can be the reason why. 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:29.279 Um, one factor is if somebody tends to be um very water retaining, they just tend to hold water a lot. 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.240 There, I I think usually it's people that are prone to inflammation. 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:39.839 If you're prone to inflammation, you can set up a peak weak in a way where you can kind of wipe away a lot of that accumulated inflammation over the course of a prep. 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.160 Um so they'll be like high responders. 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.160 Um other high responders are people that just generally don't look good when they are flat. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:52.720 I find that um people that are really shallow muscle bellied, like if you see my pictures, I don't have like real round muscle bellies. 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.240 So I tend to respond really well to peak weak because I look so bad when I'm flat. 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:58.720 And then I'm like, okay, I actually look good when I'm filled. 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:06.399 Um and then the people that also respond well are um people that have really round muscle bellies, almost the opposite ends of the spectrum. 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:13.120 They'll still look good when they're flat, but then when you carve them up, it's like, whoa, you know, it's really a shocking sight. 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:26.959 So I know some people think, you know, you can probably only gain a few percentage points on Peakweek, but I've seen people gain five, 10%, I would say even 15% improvement, maybe even 20 if you're looking at outlier, depending on how you structure it. 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:28.560 That's awesome. 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:37.360 Well, one thing I did notice when I've seen some of your content is I noticed a lot of people tend to keep variables like sodium and potassium relatively stable. 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:42.560 I I believe I remember seeing you mention manipulating those variables a little bit more. 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:52.959 I was just curious if that's kind of changed over time with playing around with it, or do you generally keep those variables constant, or is there a reason why you bump one up and lower one? 00:06:53.439 --> 00:07:05.759 Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting that you bring that up because I find myself in a weird spot in my career because when I first started, there was still a lot of real old school blow bro bodybuilders. 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:13.040 And when I first started, I was kind of known as like the science guy, like this nerdy science coach. 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.399 You know, they're like, oh, look at him, he uses science and uh get out of here. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.160 Don't think about it too much, just do it. 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:24.800 Um, and then you know, I've changed a few things over the course of the years, but it really my approach is still the same. 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:30.560 Like I use science and scientific reasoning to inform my decision making, right? 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.720 But but I've never been a slave to the research. 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:43.439 And so now, because scientific the scientific approach is so popular, but I think a lot of people are slave to the research, now I'm kind of known as the bro meathead guy. 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.399 And I haven't changed, you guys have all changed, you know. 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:56.879 Um, and I say that because this relates to your question, because I think like back in the day, 15 years ago, um, you'd get this bro crowd that would wildly manipulate sodium and potassium. 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:08.240 It was really common to just reduce salt down to practically zero and then load up on potassium, and then you'd end up in this really nasty kind of like spilled flat situation. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:13.199 And now I think the more scientific group is tends to be more conservative, in my opinion. 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.519 They're like, if you look good, don't touch it. 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:29.439 I I I mess with it every time because I think it makes a bigger um difference than people realize in terms of what we're looking at as intramuscular and subcutaneous fluid retention. 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:40.320 Um the body does like to keep pretty tight ratios on things, but I do think you can slightly, if you know what you're doing, you can slightly swing that pendulum one way for a day or two, right? 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.720 And then it can kind of it'll come back after the show. 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:48.559 Um, but I think that there are ways to make aggressive but intelligent changes. 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:55.360 Um and so I think sodium and potassium is one of the more also one of the more variable metrics that you can play with during peak week. 00:08:55.519 --> 00:09:02.399 What I mean by that is I think that what works for one person on

sodium and potassium can work wildly differently for another person. 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:10.159 Um I've typically so I I think my experience comes into play with that because when I first started, I I started conservative with my adjustments. 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:22.080 And I've even found ethnicities, different ethnicities to often tend to have pretty different, seems almost like different kidney filtering rates in terms of like how do we process and eliminate excess sodium. 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:30.799 I mean, if you just look at the sodium intakes between white people and black people, um, generally I can just load sodium up on a pale person. 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:31.759 You know what I mean? 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:40.720 Um, but then I I kind of want to like maybe load it up earlier for someone that has darker skin and then taper it off because um it seems like that filtering rate is a lot slower. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:41.759 Gotcha. 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:42.799 That makes sense. 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:50.159 Well, when it comes to like peaking, I know generally most people load a little bit more on like sodium when they're loading on carbs. 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.200 Um do you find like during depletion? 00:09:53.360 --> 00:10:05.440 Like, is there any manipulation with sodium potassium during depletion and then when you're loading on carbs and then like on the day of the show, like does it look quite a bit different depending on if you're loading or you're depleting? 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:07.120 Yes, yeah. 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:17.440 So, you know, for those that don't, you know, that are listening that may not know, like sodium has so many benefits to it's tricky because sodium is the primary extracellular ion. 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.960 So it's like it's going to be found in heavy compartments and subcutaneous areas. 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:26.879 I mean, I think everybody's experienced where you eat this like really salty meal and then you're like puffy or you have like stock lines going. 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:33.759 Um but sodium has so many benefits because it's found so heavily in the blood. 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:40.559 I think also people have had that experience where they eat just like really salty meal and then they just get this pump that's out of the world out of this world, you know. 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:57.679 So you it's really this kind of like Goldilocks thing where you want enough sodium product to produce an optimal pump and vascularity, um, but not so much that you're starting to see this accumulation of COP cutaneous water retention. 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:09.759 Um, so there's a couple of things that I find with sodium is that a lot of um solutes, by the way, sodium, potassium, carbs, some people look better when it's actively coming up. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.039 Some people look better when it's actively coming down. 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:21.039 Um and so if I had to say, I would say, you know, there's always exceptions to the rule, but more generalities. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:26.240 It seems like people with quicker metabolisms tend to look better with sodium and carbs. 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:29.039 Like most solutes actively coming up at the same time. 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:37.120 It seems like people with like slower metabolisms where they tend to just, you know, they have a hard time getting the weight off, they tend towards water retention, things like that. 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:40.080 They look better with things almost like actively coming down. 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:53.360 So what I mean by that is like um I may structure it in a way where sodium may be actively coming up for someone with a fast metabolism along with carbohydrates. 00:11:53.519 --> 00:12:02.000 Um, and then I'll have a situation where I may bring it up, but then like leave one or two days to kind of like clean up if someone has a slower metabolic rate. 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:07.200 I I think one thing that's useful that was useful for me early on, and it still is useful. 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:19.440 Sometimes if you don't exactly know, because you can run tests during your prep, um, but sometimes it doesn't exactly give you the information that you need, like someone being totally shredded does. 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:28.080 So even if you're not sure, you can kind of like build sodium up over the course of a week during peak week and just kind of see what you see. 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:39.759 Um, you know, if because like you just build it up slowly a little bit, like even sometimes I'll deplete people for maybe four days or so, and I'll do low and then higher and then higher and then higher. 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:44.639 So even during the deplete, they're depleting, so nothing else is really changing. 00:12:44.879 --> 00:13:06.159 Um carbs are static, uh potassium is usually pretty static, and then I'm just changing one variable and I get to observe what I'm seeing here, and I yeah, I can decide if I like it or not, and then I can once the load starts, depending on how many days it is, um, I can structure it based on what I've just observed. 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:07.279 Gotcha. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:14.240 That that makes a lot of sense, and it makes sense that everybody be a little bit different depending on their metabolism, their ethnicity, and all that kind of stuff. 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:25.440 I've even observed it a bit in some of my clients where they seem to like, yeah, if I load them on carbs, like they feel a little bit quicker, or like they end up looking for a little bit and it takes some time to clean up. 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.519 So yeah, I I that makes a lot of sense. 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:38.399 Yeah, you you know what, yeah, and it it's one thing that's it's uh I'll also say is because um, you know, sometimes when I say things, like I just like I just said, oh, here's a protocol you could follow. 00:13:38.639 -->

00:13:41.679 Um sometimes I maybe need to put a caveat on that. 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.799 I've been doing this for like you know 15, 16 years now. 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:50.320 Um, when you first start peaking somebody, the variables are very overwhelming and you don't even always know what you're looking at. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:14:12.559 Um, so when I say that, my advice would be until you're like really locked in with um, you know, so with coaching, um, like I don't know if you've noticed this, but coaching and bodybuilding in general, things seem to, I don't know if you guys watch football or whatever, but like when you get like a rookie quarterback, they always say like they're you know, the game will slow down, if that makes sense. 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.559 You know, like everything seems to be moving so fast. 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:16.639 I find coaching tends to be that same way. 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:22.799 Like when you first start coaching and you've got a peak week to manage, you're like, oh my god, there's so many moving parts, I can't manage it all. 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:24.559 Like eventually it slows down. 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.000 So I'm gonna put a caveat on there. 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:32.320 Like, if you're a newer coach, um, I would really hone in on one variable at a time with your client. 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.080 So I'm gonna put that caveat on there. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:41.120 If you're new to coaching, even with your in your first couple of years, I would say like don't tinker with sodium and potassium too much. 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:42.879 Get the carbs right first. 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:47.759 Then once you're sure your c your carbs are in the ballpark, then start tinkering. 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.559 You know what I mean? 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:58.960 Because I think that managing too many things at once for a newer coach or a newer competitor would probably be too many moving parts and you know, be moving too quickly to make those decisions. 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:00.639 So I want to put that caveat on there. 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.960 I don't want people being like, you gave me this advice, so it was totally totally garbage. 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.679 Yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense. 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:13.279 Yeah, if you're trying to do it so many more variables, you're not really knowing what's kind of moving the needle in terms of making that. 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:15.200 So that's that's very for sure. 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:31.919 Uh one one thing I want to ask too, based off of like somebody that's newer to like coaching credits, somebody that's elite, like how would you say, like, what are like the certain traits that like a very elite coach like yourself do you think have compared to somebody that's maybe like your mentoring uh coming up? 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:39.360 Like, what do you notice like the like yourself compared to them, like the slight differences or

what you develop over time? 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.360 Oh, that's a great question. 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:52.960 That's a great question because I've known some people over the years that I view to be highly intelligent and highly educated, but then their clients just they don't look great to me. 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:53.919 Do you know what I mean? 00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:02.559 Um, so it's like sometimes you can know all the research on the human body and you can be a highly intelligent person, but it doesn't always equate to results. 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:17.279 And so um, if I had to nail down a couple of traits, um first off, I think let's just put the the thing that needs to be up front is you kind of have to be in love with or obsessed with the coaching process. 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:30.399 Um, I've also seen people that were really great coaches at one point, and then it's almost like they lose their love of it or they get distracted by, you know, they want to go down the social media route or other, you know, other things. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:36.960 Um, and it's like their results taper off because they've lost their love or obsession for this process. 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:45.200 So I think being in love with this process or or obsessed with it or both is is a great trait to have. 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.200 Even after 15 years, I I wake up with show day in particular. 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:50.639 You know, it's like, let's do this. 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.519 I think that that's a prerequisite, honestly. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:59.360 Now, and you put in that, I think the other thing is that uh you have to be able to set your boundaries. 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:05.519 Um now, my boundaries may not work for everybody as a coach, but I think you have to have your own. 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:13.519 Now, what I mean by that is um I'm really hardlined on a few boundaries with some of my clients, uh with all my clients. 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:28.160 It's like um, if somebody applies to work with me and they need to lose 40 pounds to be stage ready, and they tell me they want to compete in 20 weeks, it's too fast, at least for a natural athlete. 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.759 You know, I I if it's an enhanced athlete, they can probably do it. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.839 But a natural athlete, it's too fast. 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:35.680 You won't look good on show day. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:42.880 There's that tendency to want to say yes, especially, especially if you you need the money. 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:54.000 That's why I I always tell coaches don't leave your job until you actually um like have to, because when you start making decisions because you need the money, the results are gonna suffer. 00:17:54.160 --> 00:18:06.000 Um, so you know, just don't do it because then at the end of the day, this client is going to get on stage, they're not gonna look good, you're not happy, they're not happy, they're gonna go to a different coach because they're not happy. 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.960 And now you put a look on stage with your name on it that is subpar. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:18.799 So I think that having that standard, and even another thing is like this may be controversial here, but coaching, it's really common right now. 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.759 I noticed everybody wants phone calls and video calls. 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.599 Um I think it's bad for the process. 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:30.079 Um, I think phone calls and video calls are bad for the process because, and I stand firm on that. 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:36.400 Like sometimes my clients, I explain to them why, because I'm not gonna remember everything that's said on that call, and neither will you. 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:42.640 Um, so we're gonna spend a lot of time rehashing what we said. 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.240 Um, we're probably gonna rehash it through email. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:56.960 Um, then the other thing is when you tell me something and I have to make a decision on that call, um, I've had no time to ponder. 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.720 Um, sometimes even two minutes, right? 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.880 Like I have an email come in, I assess the entirety of the situation. 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:12.079 Two minutes to think about the the um repercussions of what I'm going to decide. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.519 It allows me to see the whole picture and think about it before I make a decision. 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:21.519 But if I'm on a phone call with somebody, it's literally I have seconds to make a decision, and it's the first thing that comes out of my mouth. 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:28.720 Um, I used to do phone calls with my clients weekly uh from 2010 to about 2015. 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:34.480 Um, and I noticed some clients would really like the phone calls and they wanted them. 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:36.880 Other clients were like, nah, I'm good, uh, you know, I don't need to. 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.559 And I noticed the clients that didn't use the phone calls were getting much better results. 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.799 And so finally I was like, hey, this is why I'm taking the phone calls out, and then everybody started getting those great results. 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.039 Um, it was much more efficient. 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.960 Um, and then the other thing is they have time to think about what they're telling me, also. 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:59.920 Um, I find that when somebody gets on a call and it seems like they always want to tell you how tired they are, right? 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:01.279 And how hungry they are. 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:08.799 Um, but I think that when they have time to reflect on what that is, they end up being like, okay, this is manageable. 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:10.000 He doesn't need to hear about all this. 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:10.799 You know what I mean? 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.000 So, so setting the

boundaries, those are just a couple examples. 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.720 So you gotta be in love with it, you have to be able to set your boundaries. 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:22.559 And then the last thing is I think the right amount of the correct amount of ego is important. 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:27.279 Um, I think to do this job, you have to have a certain amount of ego, right? 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.480 Like you're like, yeah, I can make all the decisions for all these people. 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:36.319 You can't be devoid of ego to be like, I'm gonna take this on and I can do it and do it well. 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:45.200 Um, I think if somebody's too humble or lacking confidence, I don't think that you're in the right mindset to make these decisions to put people on stage. 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:49.680 But you can't have so much ego that you aren't willing to listen to what your clients have to say. 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:58.799 You aren't willing to change your mind when evidence comes up that you might be doing something wrong and you're gonna find yourself irrelevant before too long. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.799 So I think those are some of the primary characteristics that I see in successful coaches. 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:03.359 Yeah. 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:04.799 That that makes a lot of sense. 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:12.240 And I never thought about that with like the check-in process, too, because a lot of my clients like, I'll I'll do like an intake form before like the call. 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:18.720 So I have a kind of an idea of where they're at, um, and then I'll kind of make the judgment before I even hop on the call with them. 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:29.759 But I I could see how that would kind of be if you're on the call and like you're just getting that information now and you have to make that decision right there, how that would definitely be be yeah, kind of thing. 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:32.799 And and so there's where I think the individuality comes into it too. 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:38.240 Because also the other thing is phone calls particularly aren't usually the best for me. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.079 Um, because I think that for me as an individual, I guess like so. 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:46.160 If you're making the decision first and then talking about it, that's that makes it a lot easier. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:58.000 And then, but I think that with myself, I find that when somebody tells me what's going on with them, um, I do my best work when I'm able to think about what this person needs to hear from me. 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:02.799 I'm usually not the type of person that my initial response is what people want to hear. 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:12.079 Like, like I personally, so when I started coaching, actually, when I first started coaching bodybuilders, um, I started having success as a bodybuilder, you know, as a bodybuilding coach. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:16.400 And this is before I just was

doing it full time, and I was like, maybe I should be a personal trainer too, right? 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:18.880 Because it was like good to get in the gym and I should just do this. 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:28.480 And uh my my um wife at the time, she's like, she was she did it with me, we were both trainers, and she was like, Why are your clients always crying? 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:38.079 And like, I don't even know, but it wasn't like I was like yelling at them, but it was just like sometimes my responses are a little too straightforward, you know, just a little too blunt, like here's what needs to get done. 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.160 And then like people think I'm like mad at them because I'm not addressing, you know what I mean? 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:50.640 So it helps me in particular to be like, I need to think about what does this person need to hear from me, you know what I mean? 00:22:50.799 --> 00:23:02.720 Because the first thing out of my mouth will probably be too logistical, and they're gonna think that I don't care about their feelings, which I do, but it's not usually the first thing out of my mouth. 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.799 So, so even for me, like so. 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:12.240 That's where I think as a coach, identifying what you're because some people are also really great at making people feel cared for, you know what I mean, in a call. 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:20.640 So I think that's where it's like as a coach, you need to be able to identify your things that make you successful, um, and stand firm on those. 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:21.279 You know what I mean? 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:26.960 Like, you can't give everything to every client because if it's gonna make your process unsuccessful, then nobody's gonna be happy with that. 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.599 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:36.400 Um, to take it back to like the athlete uh perspective, too, because you've worked with a lot of like very high-level athletes. 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:42.720 I'm curious, like, what kind of traits do you notice from those kind of athletes, the ones that are like the world champions? 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.880 Like, how do they tend to handle prep? 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:52.000 Like, are most of them pretty good, or um, do genetics sometimes like help a lot, or like maybe just dive into some of those things? 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:55.279 Uh genetics help a lot. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:00.079 Um, so I I would say everybody is competing in their own genetic grouping. 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:06.960 You have lower level athletes that are battling out to see who the you know the king of the lower genetics are. 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.519 Um, and then you have these mid-level athletes that are battling it out within their mid-levels. 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.920 You know, there's like there's of course like crossovers, right? 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:22.480 Somebody with bad genetics can be somebody with, you know, fairly good or medium genetics if they do everything right and this person does a lot wrong, right? 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:40.559 Um, so when you look at the top, the upper echelon, world championship competitors, you know, I I mean at this point I've coached, I don't know how many individuals, but I'm looking at like a little over 20 world champion or class world champion wins. 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:45.759 You are looking at elite genetics all going head to head. 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:58.799 Now, I do think getting information from the elite genetics in terms of what they do right is useful because the difference between first place set of world championship and let's just be honest, even like 10th place. 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:00.000 It's so small. 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:02.880 So everything just really matters. 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:08.480 I've coached a few outliers where they're so good it may not always matter. 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:16.079 Quick shout out to our sponsor, True North Sportsware, local gym gear that's high quality, comfortable, and built to last. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:19.599 Use code Teen Empty to take 15% off your next order. 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:27.039 I can't say who, and I won't even say if it's a guy or a girl or whatever, but they've given me permission to tell this story publicly. 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:34.480 I had a client one time going for a world championship, and this person cheated on their diet. 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.880 I drew up a peak week that I was so proud of. 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:37.920 I was like so proud of it. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.720 I was like, we were in position, it was a beautiful peak week. 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.799 I was like, this, I feel so good about this, right? 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:44.160 I was like, we might get this. 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.440 You know, you don't always know if you're gonna get a world championship, also, we might get this. 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:53.920 Um and Tuesday I get a show's on Saturday, Tuesday I get a text, and it's like, we need to talk. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.279 I messed up so bad. 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.920 Um, this person just full on binged. 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:05.039 Um and it was uh the peak week I drew up was a nice, like slow linear building backload, right? 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:08.720 Um that was like the goal was to hit this carbohydrate peak on show day. 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.519 But now I was like, okay, now it's a front load, you know. 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:13.200 Um it's a front load. 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:20.559 Um we were very spilled over, um watery, like just spilled puffy. 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.920 And I made a lot of adjustments. 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:33.759 It was just day by day, just throughout the whole peak week, you know, through throw it out, day by day adjustments, managing things popped into place nicely on show day, and we won the world championship. 00:26:33.839 -->

00:26:42.559 And it's kind of funny along the lines of like on show day, everyone's like people are coming up to me and they're like, Man, Cliff, another perfect peak. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:48.079 And I was looking at this person, and I'm like, we're both like, we just won't say anything, we'll just roll with it. 00:26:48.319 --> 00:27:01.279 Um, so everybody would probably kill that person if they knew what had happened that week, you know, because they were probably but but um so what I'm gonna say is first off, no process is perfect. 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:20.160 High level people don't think this, but high-level pros cheat on their diet, get stressed out, they have anxiety, um they have plugs that they start and then have to pull the plug on for one reason or another at the exact same rate as average competitors. 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:22.960 They just have better tools to work with, in my opinion. 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:30.240 Now, with that said, the top people do have things that put them at the top of their grouping. 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:32.480 Um, you know, the top of the mid-levels and all that. 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:34.480 They have things that put them at the top of their grouping. 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:39.359 And um, you know, I I think that one, they are usually motivated. 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.240 They don't need they don't need pep talks, they are self-motivated. 00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.839 Being able to be self-motivated is such an important part of this, you know. 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:53.200 It's like if if you need your coach to drag you across the finish line, you are probably not going to be at the top of your genetic grouping. 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:54.160 You know what I mean? 00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:57.920 Um they're disciplined, you know. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:05.680 It doesn't mean you never break, but for the most part, on a day-to-day basis, you get up and do the things that you need to do. 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:08.640 And if you do break, you're resilient. 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:10.880 Um, you come back quickly. 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:19.200 Um, even top pros will have breaks in their diet, not all of them, but a good many of them will have breaks in their diet where they mess up. 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.599 They get back on track so quickly. 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:26.079 It's literally like, oh, I had some cookies, let's just get right back on it. 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.720 You know what I mean? 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:30.160 It does not turn into a multi a whole day or a multi-day thing. 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:32.559 Um that that's really resilient right there. 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.200 Another big factor also in terms of resilience is how do you handle a bad placing? 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.799 One guy that I had compete, he he competed a while ago. 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.759 Um a lot of people may not know him, but he's kind of a low-key guy. 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:45.359 His name's Andy

Um Stalford. 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:54.160 He took second place at the 2018 IPE World Championships, and he won the Masters IPE World Championships that day. 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:54.960 So that year. 00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:04.400 But before that show, those two shows, he actually did just a random pro show that was not very big and took third place. 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:11.599 Um it was a combination of questionable judging, lighting that didn't really, he doesn't have great shape. 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:12.799 He's like a mass monster. 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:14.799 It's kind of like blocky physique. 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:20.880 So you need lighting that really shows off how lean you are, how muscular you are. 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.799 It was very shadowed lighting that pretty much just showed like sh silhouettes, right? 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.200 So um the silhouette didn't favor him. 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:33.039 So bad lighting, questionable judging, took a third place at a show he probably should have easily won. 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.359 We got in the car afterwards and he goes, Well, that sucks. 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:43.920 On to worlds, you know, and it was like he didn't he didn't go out and eat his feelings, you know what I mean? 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.400 He just we got back on track and then he won Master's Worlds a couple weeks later and then took second at the open worlds, you know. 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.160 So it's like right back on track. 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:58.559 So I I like to see that, and the other thing I like to see is um someone that is um titrating. 00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.920 Um I use that as a personality. 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:00.720 Personality trait. 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:06.480 I don't think other people use that as a personality trait, but it's it means to continually measure and adjust the balance of. 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.839 And I like to see people do that with themselves and the path they're taking. 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:16.960 So what I mean by that is like a lot of bodybuilders, like if you ask them, they're like, I'm a real type A personality. 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:23.920 Um and I'm like, okay, but maybe we don't bring that personality in situations where it's not called for. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:24.720 You know what I mean? 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:29.359 I think, I think adjust yourself to what the situation calls for. 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:34.160 Um, a phrase I use with my clients is everything's a hammer, everything's a nail to a hammer. 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:34.799 You know what I mean? 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.119 And I'm like, I want you to have lots of tools in your tool bag. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.559 And um, I want you to be able to adjust yourself for what the situation calls for. 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.440 When you need to be able to rest, I want you to be able to rest. 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.119 Um, when you when you need to be able to push yourself, I want you to be able to push yourself. 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.039 Like let's let's have different modes. 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:51.759 Yeah, that makes makes a lot of sense. 00:30:51.920 --> 00:31:12.640 Um with the push and pull too, like what like I know with like some athletes, like sometimes you can push them to the point where they like break and knowing when to pull back, like is there specific some things that you measure that you um get to know from your client when they're getting real close to like that what you could say is like your breaking point, like where they're about to binge? 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:17.359 Like, is there some ways that you try to like that as a coach that you go around that? 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:18.559 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.160 Um, that's a great question, too. 00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:29.279 And this is where I think you it's also bodybuilding coaching is kind of weird because I coach a lot of high-level people, but I also coach beginners. 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.279 You know, most bodybuilding coaches, even high-level bodybuilding coaches, still have beginners. 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.559 And so it's kind of weird if you look at it in the context of other sports. 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.559 I like basketball, so I'll use it in basketball. 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:49.119 Like on the same day, I may be coaching in our sport like LeBron James, but I'm also coaching like a fifth grade basketball player. 00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:50.000 You know what I mean? 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:56.000 Like in terms of what their their experience is and their mindset and their abilities. 00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:02.799 Like, I'll literally close the email with LeBron James, and then I'm like, okay, let's let's show you how to dribble. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.519 You know what I mean? 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:15.519 The way you deal with people on experience levels, and I I honestly think of things in terms of that scenario when I talk to my clients, like, because I can't talk to everyone, I can't speak to everyone the same way. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:22.799 Um, so when I'm dealing with somebody that is a total newbie, um, I I I don't trust their opinion a whole lot, right? 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:28.240 I'm going to, I don't want to sound like a dictator here, but I'm like, I'm gonna drop the plan. 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:36.799 I want you to follow it and then report what you feel back to me because we now are both learning about their body, right? 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:46.480 Um, there's gonna be times where I overtrain them purposefully, actually, because I need to know when that happens and they need to know what that feels like. 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:47.359 You know what I mean? 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:54.000 Like um there are times where I'm gonna push them too hard and they might cheat on their diet because I want to know when that happens. 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.960 They want to, they need

to know what it feels like when they're getting to that point. 00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:02.000 I take the approach of I take the view that I'm probably I'm gonna work with somebody for a long time. 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:04.400 When I invest in somebody, I I take that approach. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:08.160 Um, and so I kind of view this as we are in a process of discovery. 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.440 We're gonna learn about you, and I'm gonna learn about you, and so are you. 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:12.079 You know what I mean? 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:20.160 Like we're both gonna learn about you because then over the course of time their opinion becomes more valuable because they know what they feel. 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:22.799 You know, I can't be in their body, I can't know what they feel. 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:32.000 But now I've run them through multiple scenarios where they know what this feeling is, and so over the course of time their opinion becomes highly valuable to me. 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:38.079 So when I get to my elite clients now, so I try to build systems that improve with time, if that makes sense. 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:39.599 Like I don't have a set system. 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:43.519 I I feel like a system doesn't try to avoid mistakes. 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:48.720 Like, I'll honestly, you know, in the early days of coaching someone, I almost try to put in mistakes, right? 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:52.160 I try to overtrain them, I try to push them. 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:59.359 Um, I push them in we'll do mini cuts that are probably overly strenuous at times because I want to know when they start to struggle. 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.319 You know what I mean? 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.799 Um and we learn. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:13.599 Um, so then by the time I've worked with someone for two, three years, now their opinion is very valuable to me when they say hey, and then I start actually changing the end of how I speak to them. 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.559 I say, when you start to get to this point, you talk to me, you let me know. 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.159 You know that feeling, you know what I mean? 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.519 And so now it becomes like this back and forth. 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.480 Um, now I'm working with a pro, with an NBA player, right? 00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:27.280 It's like um I can draw up the play. 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:34.079 One analogy I always use is the coaches in the NBA, they draw out the play, but those are those NBA players, they know what they're doing. 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.360 If they're not open, change it on the fly, you know, pass it. 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:42.159 Um, even though the play says you should shoot at this spot, if it's not there, pass it. 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:43.119 Make something else happen. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.920 You know what I mean? 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:49.280 So that's where I I kind of expect to become collaborative, I guess I would

say. 00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:49.840 Yeah. 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:51.599 No, that's that's very fascinating. 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:53.360 Just the perspective you had on there. 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:58.800 Like I've never thought of it that way, just like like trying to push him to that breaking point so you understand where that is. 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:00.079 I I really like that, actually. 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:01.440 That's that's very smart. 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:02.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:16.960 You know, um, there's a uh so you know, people hate people don't like when I say this, but actually I I think sometimes a lot of people would do really well, coaches would do really well with sometimes a lot of coaches are just so highly educated these days, which is a great thing. 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.760 But then there's a certain point where you hit this level of education. 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.920 I think you actually need to read things that exist outside the bodybuilding world because they really help. 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:27.280 There's an interesting book um called Anti-Fragile. 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.239 Um, it's by Nicholas Nassim Taleb. 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:32.559 Um, and he's an economist. 00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:40.320 Uh, and the book is kind of on the nature of things, but it relies it it pertains to economics. 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:51.039 And the idea being that systems should be constructed in ways that they don't avoid failure or shocks or blows. 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:58.639 Um that they those things are actually good for a system as long as the system learns from those things. 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.760 You try to avoid those same things twice, if that makes sense. 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:20.639 And so I I I actually try to take some of that into my own coaching practice where it's like, I'm not trying to avoid mistakes, I'm just trying to avoid catastrophic mistakes, and I'm trying to almost manufacture mistakes within a safe construct to where the information becomes highly useful down the road and makes us much stronger. 00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:30.480 In terms of a client to like, has there this kind of a different topic, but has there been a client that you've worked with that's had like a really tough experience? 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:38.559 Or I I know you had uh William at the Vector show and he has like big like into social media stuff amount of pressure there. 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:44.559 Like what would you say is like the hardest client you've ever had to prep and like the biggest takeaway from it? 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:53.360 Hard for me or hard for them, or hard to figure out, or do you just want me to give yeah, just like maybe like the most challenging one for yourself, I guess. 00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:54.559 Yeah, okay. 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:58.239 Um Will Will was challenging in a different way for sure. 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:04.480 Uh because and you know, and one thing that I think is he did so well for his first show ever. 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:13.679 Like that was the other thing, is like he didn't even have like a mini cut to really test and get down and really see what he's capable of. 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:17.519 He literally got a hold of me and we went right at it and he dove right in. 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:49.039 And he won his pro card at a show with like 26 people, and um, it was just so I know sometimes people it I felt like a lot of people were holding him to the standard of a seasoned vet, you know what I mean, someone who's done four or five shows, and I'm like, man, uh just because he's so well known, people were holding them to that standard, and I'm like, man, what he did was insanely impressive, and you know, I so I want to say that, but that was I felt like that was more challenging for him than for me, if that makes sense, because he had so much pressure on him. 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:51.840 Um, but I I I think he did fantastic. 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.239 Um, two scenarios kind of run through my head, which is a little bit of both. 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:00.960 One, I worked with a woman named Carrie Bolan. 00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:08.639 She started with me late in her career, and she she'd been competing like 20 years and couldn't get a pro card. 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.079 Like she was just always kept falling short. 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:11.599 A lot of second place, right? 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:15.039 So then 2012, I think it was. 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:20.639 Uh yeah, 2012, I coached her and we won a pro card right out of the gate, which was awesome. 00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:25.519 And then she jumped into her pro debut and took second in her pro debut, which was great. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:39.360 Um, but she was already getting a little older, you know, and so we took like one whole year off, and then we were like, this is gonna be our last season because she was like 49 at this point, and we were looking at her and we're like, she was just so good. 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.840 Like, honestly, I was like, she might win a world championship. 00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:48.800 Um, but menopause was very difficult for her. 00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:53.039 And if you've ever coached anyone through menopause, it is brutal. 00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:54.960 Um it is brutal. 00:38:55.119 --> 00:39:02.639 It ended up being almost like we started prep, and then her like her body just wouldn't cooperate, and we're like, why don't we just take a breather, right? 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:09.760 So we kind of like paused, and we didn't actually get on stage the year that we had intended to. 00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:10.880 It was almost like a year later. 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:18.159 We like lost some weight and then we just held it and we just like let her body kind of work through just perimenopause, work through it, right? 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:22.000 And then we resumed the following year.

00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:25.599 It was just such a long process and a lot of communication of how she's doing. 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.880 I had to throw out the idea of like rate of loss. 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:34.480 It was just like, we'll get there when we get there, which was so difficult for me because I like to keep a good schedule. 00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:44.000 She did her second pro show and won, and then we're like, and she she made it clear, she's like, My body is just this is brutal, this is my last time, right? 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:51.280 And we're like, she has a real shot at a world championship, and then she tore something in her shoulder while training. 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:57.840 Um, the doctor made it clear to us that it was already torn. 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.800 Further training wasn't gonna make it worse. 00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:04.960 Um, she was going to need surgery, but we could put it off. 00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:09.760 Um, it's just kind of like how much pain can she tolerate, right? 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.599 So actually, heavier training was the most painful thing for her. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:21.360 So we did all upper body for the last two months of her prep in the rep range of about 30 to 35 reps. 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:27.920 It was brutal for her because that's you've ever done 30 to 35 reps, that's painful, right? 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:31.679 Plus, she has pain uh in her shoulder. 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:39.760 Um, but we maintained, I was like, I go, I hate to tell you this, but like in this rep range, almost everything's got to beat a failure, you know, because it's like that's not a heavy load. 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:43.679 She maintained her size, we got her like and she won a world championship. 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:48.719 Um, it was like I had to just throw away every plan I wanted to set. 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:49.440 You know what I mean? 00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:54.960 It was just like it was come, it was it was a prep of we'll figure it out, you know what I mean? 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:56.320 But it kind of opened my eyes. 00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.119 That was back in 2015, I think. 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:04.320 Um, it really opened my eyes to you can always find a way to get it done. 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:05.280 You know what I mean? 00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:07.199 Like um, it was very difficult. 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:11.679 And then I think the other one was actually the year before when I coached, um, worked with Doug Miller. 00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:18.239 Doug was unique in its own way because that was that one was a lot of pressure on me. 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:23.280 Um, because Doug had already won a world championship. 00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:28.880 And to be honest with you, he was already considered by many maybe the greatest natural bodybuilder of all time. 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:33.039 So if he didn't win with me, that's just a real bad look. 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:34.159 You know what I mean? 00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:41.920 Um and so um, you know, um, and then the other thing is Doug is I've worked with a few people that are like this. 00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:44.800 You get some people where they are such an outlier. 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:52.480 The things you traditionally thought as limits or rules or whatever you want to call them, they just do not apply to this person. 00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:54.320 Um, and I didn't have a lot of time. 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.760 I'd known Doug before that, but I didn't have a lot of time to work with him. 00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.480 Like I only worked with him for about the last 10 weeks. 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:05.519 Um, and so that was not a lot of time to learn what was going on. 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:10.159 Particularly, I had only been coaching about four or five years at that point, four and a half years. 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.480 And so that's not my experience level was not where it is now. 00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:16.639 And so I was like, I was on edge, right? 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:27.920 I was like, man, there's a lot writing on this, and um, and it was kind of funny even when I he called me and I got off the phone, and I I told my wife at the time, I was like, that was Doug Miller. 00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:30.559 I was like, he wants me to help him finish this prep. 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.800 And she looks at me and she goes, Awesome, don't fuck it up. 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.119 I was like, Yeah, yes, thank you. 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:38.079 Thanks, dear. 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:46.480 Um but um you know it that that one was challenging because just so many things like that are just such outliers with him. 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:54.960 I by the way though, like even like how you say, like, sometimes people get this impression of like these elite competitors, like they're impervious to their own things. 00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:59.119 One thing that always makes me laugh that's kind of a story I I like with that prep. 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.800 Doug, uh before we did the world championship, we did the Gaspari Pro. 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:08.079 And he we carbloaded him very heavily for the Gaspari Pro, like something he had never done before. 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:22.639 And he won that, and then we went into the world championships, and we decided we were gonna keep him in the middle weights because we were gonna we didn't like the idea of him competing against guys that are ahead taller than him, um, because he's just so big that's where he would be. 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:27.440 So I was like, we'll just be a little bit more conservative before weighing in, and then we'll look up. 00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.079 And he goes, um, he goes, Okay, that works. 00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:38.800 I just want to make sure though that I'm as full as I was like at the Gaspari, because you know, when I looked at the pictures, I finally felt like I had some size.

00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:41.199 And I'm like, oh, I'm like, good, Doug. 00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:43.199 I'm glad that you finally got some size. 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:45.440 I I hate to think what you think of the rest of us. 00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:46.559 That's too funny. 00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:46.800 Yeah. 00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:52.559 No, I couldn't imagine, yeah, the pressure coaching him, especially yeah, just after four four years of coaching. 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:54.320 But no, that's that's insane. 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:58.159 I remember you guys were talking to Tim from WMVF miles. 00:43:58.320 --> 00:43:58.480 Yeah. 00:43:58.880 --> 00:43:59.199 Yes. 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:04.320 And then you guys had a you guys had a uh a seminar over there. 00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:05.119 Yeah. 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:05.760 Yes. 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:07.760 How how how was that? 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.840 And um, yeah, what was that about? 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:10.800 That's funny. 00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:13.039 I'm even wearing my WMBF Macau shirt here. 00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:17.440 Um that was um that was incredible, actually. 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:22.559 Um, so you know, I've been I I've been fortunate enough to get to speak in a lot of different countries. 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:27.679 The WNBF Asia guys are onto something, like without a doubt. 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:34.079 I think a lot of the WNBF US promoters should like go over there and like actually see what's going on. 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:38.000 It was the show there in Taiwan was unbelievable. 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.760 Like they had this big LED screen, like a 30-foot LED screen. 00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:46.400 It was a pro presentation that was like better than the IFBB Olympia. 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.199 It was crazy. 00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:53.519 Like the screen would split open and the pros would walk out of this giant LED screen with it, it was incredible. 00:44:53.760 --> 00:45:09.039 The thing that the thing that I love about the WNBF Asia guys, and I feel like actually I feel like this is um actually problematic within the US in general, but I feel like other countries do this better. 00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:18.079 Like when I did the seminar, and when I've done seminars outside of the US, the questions I get are honestly like a lot of the questions you guys have asked, right? 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:23.599 Like, what does it take to succeed, either as an athlete or as a coach or whatever? 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:33.920 Um, I feel like in the US, the questions I get are very on the periphery of social media and how do I build my name, right? 00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:39.119 Business tactics, um, social media tactics, things like that. 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:46.000 And kind of going back to what makes a great coach, I'm like, or competitor, I'm like, man, you just gotta start with that. 00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:48.800 You just love this, you can't picture yourself doing anything

else. 00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:57.039 And I got to spend like a week with Sim and Terry from Macau and Ison, you know, from Taiwan, and Admon from Singapore. 00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:02.239 And it's like everybody just loves loves what they're doing. 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:05.519 They love competing, they love bodybuilding, they love promoting. 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:18.400 Um, and it was like being around that group of people was just uh so refreshing because it's very rare that you get such a group of people that are just so passionate about it. 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:27.760 Um, and they just start with the love of it and then and then you love it so much, you can't help but talk about the mechanics of what makes everything work and what makes it successful and how to make it better. 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:29.679 And so um, it was fantastic. 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:32.719 I I would encourage a lot of pros to like go there. 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:34.880 If if you can afford it, go there. 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.119 If you have if you're gonna compete, compete there even. 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.800 Like it was it was definitely worth it was worth the experience. 00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:46.239 I think it would be worth the experience if you're looking for like something that actually makes you feel like the other thing is in the US, right? 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:50.400 Sorry, last thing, it's like they they have this pro event. 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:58.400 Um, the US shows do a very poor job of making pro natural bodybuilders feel like a professional at something. 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:06.079 Like it's hard to feel like you're a professional when your show is being held at like a middle school auditorium, you know what I mean? 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:18.800 Like, I know there's I know there are financials involved, but like find a way to make the pros feel like pros, um, whether it be the production or something, you know what I mean? 00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:22.719 Like, I think that means more than a lot of the US promoters really even realize. 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:23.679 That makes sense. 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:26.079 I think, didn't they even do interviews for the pros? 00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:35.039 Like, I think I remember Air Hamps talking about how like he it was almost like the Olympia conference where like they were talking to the all the pros and stuff like that. 00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:41.199 It it was uh, you know, the whole scene over there is like they just love bodybuilding. 00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:47.599 Like, I mean, you know, they love bodybuilding, they were doing interviews with the pros, they had the smoke coming out as they came out. 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:57.280 Each pro got like a very elaborate, like they didn't do this for the amateurs, but for the pros, they got like a very elaborate um introduction. 00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:00.400 They had their picture up on the big screen as they walked out. 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.639

Um, and even like my experience, just like they're just into bodybuilding. 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:14.239 Um, you know, even like when I do a talk, uh, you normally in the US, like I may give the talk and I say thanks, and we, you know, I I snap a few pictures with the people. 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:22.960 I was probably taking pictures for 30 minutes after the talk, just like people are um and people were bringing their books that you know that I wrote the book, people bring the books. 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:30.719 I also probably signed like more books than autographs and hats and stuff like that than you would ever believe because they're just like bodybuilding, you know. 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:39.599 Um, and it was like, um, I was like, this is even to me, like I I've been doing this so long, I was like, okay, I've never actually like signed so many things in my entire life. 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:40.719 This is crazy. 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:51.679 Um, but it's just like the love of what they are doing is palpable, and so it's almost like of course we'd make the pros feel like pros. 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:52.559 Do you know what I mean? 00:48:52.639 --> 00:49:03.519 They're a big deal, and so it's just like um I I do feel like the the the quality of everything was just so good, so good. 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:04.559 That's awesome. 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:14.639 Yeah, I met Terry, I think last year, maybe the year before, uh no last year, uh at WMBF Worlds, and we had like hot pot, and he put like a he like put a raw egg on it. 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.519 And I think he thought I wasn't gonna eat it and was like, of course I'm gonna eat it. 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:18.960 I'm like, I'm not, I don't have any problem. 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:23.519 So I was eating and then um and then when we met him again, he was like, I'm gonna put a raw egg on. 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.440 He's like, put two raw eggs in this one. 00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:26.320 And I was like, okay. 00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.800 And then um he's like, we'll go to Hot Pot again the next night. 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:29.840 He's like, we'll put three on. 00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:32.719 I was like, I go, Terry, how many raw eggs do I have to eat to make you happy? 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.800 And he's like, we'll just keep going. 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:37.599 That's too funny. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:38.639 That's too funny, yeah. 00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:43.920 Terry's uh Terry's a mutual friend, he's uh yeah, but it it's it's fun. 00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:55.440 But I I really agree with some of the uh things that you've mentioned, gave us a lot of uh really good information for really elevating the standard or being a pro bodybuilder is even for shows, it's really, really good insight. 00:49:55.840 --> 00:50:17.519 But I really think yeah, even just for being an elite athlete yourself and just trying to put yourself in that mindset and just seeing what the world, the rest of the world

is doing, really can uh really elevate the or uh just your standard on what this sport can actually bring us and not just get too comfortable in uh you know the North American uh standard. 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:19.119 I think it's really, really great. 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:19.599 Yeah. 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:20.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:27.920 And you know, uh in general, I think you do it for a while, you watch bodybuilding just go through different phases, really. 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:35.840 And right now, sometimes it seems like people are less concerned with like what happens actually in real life and more concerned about what it looks like online. 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:49.119 And so as a result, I feel like sometimes some certain things there are so many things about that show that were so incredible down to the details that don't even ever get put online because they were like there were just so many things they didn't care about what was going online. 00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:50.079 It was just great. 00:50:50.239 --> 00:51:11.440 And I I do think that the US shows and and here's the thing is I have natural clients, I have enhanced clients, and I will say this I think a lot of times the people that run natural bodybuilding organizations in the US they do love natural bodybuilding, but sometimes I think that they forget that the production really matters. 00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:25.360 Um, and I say this also because like um, you know, the IFBB has started dipping their toe into the natural league, and the IFBB has a pretty good natural production, like they have great lighting at every show. 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:36.159 I don't know if you've noticed this, but like they bring their own lighting rig and they make sure that the lighting, like I've been to world championship shows where the lighting is atrocious and natural, and I'm like, this is unacceptable. 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:38.239 You know, the lighting has to be perfect at worlds. 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:40.639 Like, this is our this is the world championship show. 00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:46.639 So it's like I think that making sure that all of these things are spot on, and so I say this actually out of love. 00:51:46.800 --> 00:52:00.800 Sometimes my critiques are probably taken as like too harsh, but I say this out of love because I always want I think the IFUB has its place, obviously, on the enhanced side and then on the natural side, but I want the natural side to do well too, and I want it to thrive. 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:06.800 And it's like you're gonna not be around long enough if you don't pay attention to these things that people clearly care about. 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:08.239 Yeah, 100%. 00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:14.480 Yeah, like I would I would love to see natural bodybuilder get to the same level as a guy who be enhanced league. 00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:23.039 Like, I and I think Taiwan is like a great example of showing like what it can be, and like if yeah, if we can make that happen, I'm sure it's just gonna blow up, right? 00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:29.039 Yeah, and I and I take the approach of I think that like they both, you know, sometimes the natural and the enhanced side they fight and stuff like that. 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:31.920 I think the approach of it's like as long as somebody's not cheating, I don't care. 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:32.559 You know what I mean? 00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:34.880 Like it's like they they each have their place, you know what I mean? 00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:38.000 Like you just you do your thing, they do their thing, and it's all good. 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:38.559 You know what I mean? 00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:42.559 It's like we all at the end of the day, we all just like to pick heavy things up and get big. 00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:48.960 So it's like and and get on stage in our underwear and ask people to judge our bodies. 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:54.960 Our recreational activity is most average people's worst nightmare, right? 00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:58.800 Or on stage in our underwear saying, All right, judge me, tell me everything that's wrong. 00:52:59.119 --> 00:52:59.440 Great. 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:04.239 Um but yes, thank you so much again for all the good reversion, Cliff. 00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:08.639 Uh so can you please let our listeners uh just know where we can find you? 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:09.760 Yeah, yeah. 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:13.119 Um I most of my information gets posted through my Instagram. 00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.280 It's at CW TeamWilson. 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:18.719 Um and then uh you can also find me on my website. 00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:21.920 Uh it's teamwilsonbb.com. 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.280 Um and those are those are my two main avenues. 00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:26.000 Yeah. 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:32.960 So if you guys have not checked it out, uh go to his check it out, get his book, and then if you see him, get him to sign it. 00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:34.800 It's on the eBay make a fortune. 00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:36.559 It'd be really, really awesome. 00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:37.599 Get your hat, sign it. 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.039 Same thing, get him sign it. 00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:41.440 It's a really great hat. 00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:45.440 I don't even know why I'm signing this.