บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Freedom from Mental Captivity: Insights on Mediation and Workplace Communication

mentioned communication was huge, and I can only imagine how huge. 00:05:12.754 --> 00:05:24.095 Um, I, I am a huge proponent of communication and all those skills and all those frameworks and things like that, but I think a OSHA mediation kind of takes some things to the next level there. 00:05:24.105 --> 00:05:34.915 So tell us a little bit about, okay, if you can't prevent something, if you investigate and it is a valid claim, then what happens from there, and what are some of the, the tools that you use to approach that? 00:05:35.588 --> 00:05:44.499 If you're a chief of staff, of course you're gonna be in contact-- Most companies that have a chief of staff, they, they normally have type of general counsel office. 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:59.449 Meet with them, sit down, and if there's some there there, one of the things you can do is to reach out early for resolution and contact, uh, your, your attorney and say,"Hey, let's, let's contact OSHA. 00:05:59.459 --> 00:06:07.168 Let's just see if we can get this thing into their alternative dispute resolution program," sit down with the individual while it's early. 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:12.918 While the person-- You, you may have-- person may have been terminated a week or two weeks. 00:06:12.978 --> 00:06:16.699 There, there's not a whole lot of damages there at that point. 00:06:17.459 --> 00:06:24.418 if you determine, yeah, you know, we might have some liability there, don't necessarily have to go out and tell the other side that. 00:06:24.418 --> 00:06:36.108 You could just sit down with one of OSHA's ADR, uh, coordinators, or you could contact me because I do private mediations, and I'll come in and sit down and, and work things out with both sides. 00:06:36.538 --> 00:06:49.028 But the key thing is early resolution cost the company a whole lot less money, particularly if you think you have some liability there 00:06:49.988 --> 00:06:50.939 Yes, certainly. 00:06:51.059 --> 00:07:03.059 And I've been in like kind of mediation conversations unofficially between executives, and it's, you know, you kind of have to be on point and b- be paying full attention to people's wants and needs and what they're scared of, et cetera. 00:07:03.528 --> 00:07:14.538 When you enter into a mediation, what's one of the first questions you ask either the parties together or individually just to get a sense of like, okay, what are we working with here? 00:07:14.548 --> 00:07:15.798 W- what do they want? 00:07:15.809 --> 00:07:16.738 What's the pain point? 00:07:16.788 --> 00:07:17.309 How do you... 00:07:17.778 --> 00:07:19.189 What are some questions you ask there? 00:07:19.245 --> 00:07:20.805 this might seem kind of different. 00:07:20.865 --> 00:07:26.935 Uh, I usually-- we'll do an opening, kind of explain why we're here, but then I separate each side. 00:07:27.154 --> 00:07:33.485 Then when I go to caucus with each side, ask the question: How can I serve you today? 00:07:34.685 --> 00:07:40.345 Because in the

end, I'm gonna be doing in both rooms is coaching. 00:07:40.992 --> 00:07:41.382 Mm-hmm. 00:07:41.694 --> 00:07:45.875 sides actually have the answer to the issues that exist between them. 00:07:45.915 --> 00:07:47.615 They just don't know it yet. 00:07:48.014 --> 00:07:51.214 As a matter of fact, they come into the whole situation,"There's no way. 00:07:51.214 --> 00:08:02.444 We're, we're not getting this done." one side will say the other side's like the spawns of Satan, then the other ones are, you know, demon possessed, and they don't think they're gonna get anything done. 00:08:02.685 --> 00:08:07.685 But again, get them on either side and just ask the question: How can I serve you today? 00:08:07.995 --> 00:08:09.675 And let them tell me 00:08:10.341 --> 00:08:10.350 嗯 00:08:10.535 --> 00:08:12.125 I can best serve them. 00:08:12.875 --> 00:08:13.704 And they tell me 00:08:15.165 --> 00:08:20.805 And then would a related question be something like,"How do you see, see this moving forward? 00:08:20.814 --> 00:08:22.074 Or how do you see this resolving? 00:08:22.084 --> 00:08:27.074 'Cause basically we're at loggerheads here, but we've gotta bust through this, so how do you see this proceeding?" 00:08:27.831 --> 00:08:37.740 Actually, that's a very important point, and I want them to tell me that, because now I have in my mind where they see it, see things going at the end of the day. 00:08:38.410 --> 00:08:41.270 I'm asking the other side where they see things at the end of the day. 00:08:41.270 --> 00:08:53.030 But before I get there, another question I'm gonna ask,"Okay, how did we get to where we are today?" Each side is gonna wanna tell me their viewpoint. 00:08:54.020 --> 00:09:04.860 I need to open the door and say,"Okay, I wanna hear that, so tell me, how did we get here today?" And let them draw that out for me, because that's gonna help me too. 00:09:05.691 --> 00:09:09.681 Because I'll see their strong points, I'll also see weak points. 00:09:09.681 --> 00:09:11.581 I'll do the same thing on the other side. 00:09:13.061 --> 00:09:20.360 you know, I'll, I'll, I'll point those, uh, their respective weak points out to that side, not to the other party, 00:09:20.705 --> 00:09:20.845 Mm-hmm. 00:09:21.010 --> 00:09:22.980 and then try to bridge them together. 00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:31.020 But sometime, you know, many times they're less than$80,000 apart when I go in. 00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:37.081 Or not too long after we start the mediation, it gets to that point. 00:09:38.551 --> 00:09:48.931 I strongly feel that if good mediator can get somebody within$80,000 of each other, at the end of the day, gonna resolve the issue that exists between the parties. 00:09:49.831 --> 00:09:52.071 But they have to be heard. 00:09:52.708 --> 00:09:53.078 Yes 00:09:53.081 --> 00:09:55.350 it goes back to what you said about communication. 00:09:56.860 --> 00:09:57.921 Hear them out. 00:09:58.961 --> 00:10:15.321 Uh, I, I don't naysay anything that they

have to say, because they have a vantage point, and in order for me to get them to shift their vantage point later on down the line, I, I gotta understand where they are right now in their vantage point. 00:10:15.341 --> 00:10:18.390 That's one of the things I talk about in the new book I have coming out. 00:10:18.390 --> 00:10:31.321 I- I- I- is you got to communicate, you gotta listen, and that's the big part of being a good servant leader, a good mediator, a good chief of staff, you have to listen 00:10:32.846 --> 00:10:45.807 And when you go into these, these one-on-one conversations and you say,"How did we get here?" I'm just curious, do most people just vent to you about how the other side is awful and they were doing everything wrong? 00:10:45.836 --> 00:10:54.216 Or is there a point where you get to like a little bit of glimmer of like personal responsibility of like,"I coulda done that better, but honestly they're the worst thing ever, but I coulda done that piece better"? 00:10:55.150 --> 00:10:56.801 Have you ever cooked with an Instant Pot? 00:10:57.284 --> 00:10:57.774 Yes. 00:10:58.301 --> 00:11:01.791 Okay, so you know you gotta let a little steam release before you can open, 00:11:01.893 --> 00:11:02.373 Yes 00:11:02.390 --> 00:11:05.850 it up and get down to what's actually in the pot. 00:11:06.520 --> 00:11:09.660 Uh, so you, you, you gotta let people blow off steam. 00:11:09.671 --> 00:11:13.260 People have feelings, and those feelings are important. 00:11:14.421 --> 00:11:20.431 Uh, and I need to treat them as if they're important, and any good mediator should. 00:11:20.490 --> 00:11:34.990 Any good leader when you're talking to your people as a chief of staff, because you guys have to manage conversations and conflicts between different people, not on a just a yearly basis, monthly or weekly. 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:38.230 Y'all sometimes doing that on a daily basis. 00:11:39.520 --> 00:11:57.811 listen, understand, allow them to vent and say,"Okay, if I hear you correctly, this, this, this, and this is going on." And what I'm looking for at that point I wanna hear then what Chris Voss, uh, says,"That's right." 00:11:58.304 --> 00:11:58.595 Mm-hmm. 00:12:00.822 --> 00:12:06.363 Then they know and I know that I truly understand where they're coming from. 00:12:06.722 --> 00:12:10.033 All right, so now we can shift vantage point. 00:12:10.202 --> 00:12:11.482 Understand where you are. 00:12:12.163 --> 00:12:13.863 You told me where you wanted to be. 00:12:14.822 --> 00:12:16.482 How are we going to get there? 00:12:17.517 --> 00:12:18.006 Okay. 00:12:18.187 --> 00:12:22.206 So, so far we've done, like, an opening, here's why we're here with both parties. 00:12:22.456 --> 00:12:23.437 We've split them up. 00:12:23.486 --> 00:12:37.567 We go,"How, how have, how have we gotten to this point?" Let them vent, have feelings, and then recap to the point where they go,"Yes, that's right," or,"Exactly." And then something like, um,"How do you see this resolving? 00:12:37.567 --> 00:12:39.037 What does success look like? 00:12:39.438 --> 00:12:39.899 Correct 00:12:40.177 --> 00:12:44.496 would it take to move forward?" All these questions, and you kinda mentioned the 80K apart. 00:12:44.506 --> 00:12:58.626 So if someone goes, you know,"I want, um, you know, I, I want..." I'm gonna make up an example here, 100K and a, and a good reference," and that's kind of your starting point from party A, is that, is that the starting point for the negotiation? 00:12:59.188 --> 00:13:11.139 from the company vantage point,'cause sometime you'll get a complainant and they may make 15,$20 an hour and they're wanting$300,000. 00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:15.658 And on their very best day in court, that'll never happen. 00:13:16.849 --> 00:13:24.058 Uh, part of what I do is try to help both sides set reasonable expectations. 00:13:25.219 --> 00:13:32.078 And sometime that involves with the complainant party sitting down, uh, looking at actual damages. 00:13:32.158 --> 00:13:50.078 It, it involves me understanding case law in similarly situated cases, then being able to draw upon that and explain to the complainant party in cases similar to yours, this is generally what has happened. 00:13:51.129 --> 00:14:04.639 And then to go back on the respondent side, same thing, same case law, say,"Listen, if, if you take this all the way out, these are some things that could happen," and I lay out possibilities. 00:14:05.288 --> 00:14:09.269 And understand the possibility I'm laying out to the respondent, I'm not telling the complainant. 00:14:09.318 --> 00:14:14.639 And the ones that I'm laying out to the complainant, I'm sure not telling the respondent because I'm a neutral. 00:14:15.778 --> 00:14:24.979 But I'm letting them know, uh, what, uh, Clint Eastwood calls the good, the bad, and the ugly of their situation. 00:14:25.688 --> 00:14:28.509 at that point, it's their decision on what they're gonna do 00:14:30.414 --> 00:14:41.985 And are you one who goes in and says,"Let's tackle the biggest problem, the elephant in the room first," or do you wanna work with some of the smaller items and maybe get some momentum built up that way first? 00:14:42.626 --> 00:15:00.677 Well, let's take it back and say,"Okay, how-- this is where you say you wanna go, how we gonna get there?" And let's say that, you know, they, they wanna open with, uh, let's say the company$20. 00:15:01.486 --> 00:15:04.246 Now you don't wanna go all the way up to your top point. 00:15:04.277 --> 00:15:05.746 You wanna build up. 00:15:06.777 --> 00:15:07.836 a problem with that. 00:15:08.517 --> 00:15:11.966 But how are they supposed to look at$20? 00:15:11.996 --> 00:15:14.096 Put yourself in the other room, okay? 00:15:15.246 --> 00:15:19.557 If you came with an opening offer to the other side of$20, what are they gonna think? 00:15:19.557 --> 00:15:19.817 Yeah. 00:15:19.817 --> 00:15:20.167 Yes. 00:15:20.197 --> 00:15:20.937 There, you're

right. 00:15:21.527 --> 00:15:36.567 Now, do not go to your absolute number, but put something out there that's gonna get them thinking, you know, maybe like$500,000 depending on what the damage model is, and then proceed, proceed there. 00:15:37.307 --> 00:15:42.716 'Cause no matter what you put down the first time, the other side is gonna see it as, as a bad thing. 00:15:42.716 --> 00:15:45.996 I'm still trying to get them off the part of the other side being evil. 00:15:47.726 --> 00:15:54.326 But one starts at zero and the other one starts at a number, and then we're trying to work it somewhere in between 00:15:56.302 --> 00:16:00.783 And how much discussion do you do separately before you bring them together again? 00:16:02.447 --> 00:16:10.496 I do a lot of discussion and usually I'm not bringing them back together until such time as we have a settlement in principle. 00:16:11.336 --> 00:16:19.147 And, and one thing that I failed to mention, and my apologies for this, even before mediation, there's pre-work that needs to be done. 00:16:20.136 --> 00:16:35.527 Uh, yeah, they're gonna vent a little bit there, but if I could get them to vent before we get there and to fully explain, and usually the attorneys of both sides will give me a position statement as to where they're coming from. 00:16:35.817 --> 00:16:40.537 And then I'm gonna wanna talk to the respondent attorney, make sure I understand that. 00:16:40.846 --> 00:16:43.846 Okay, me how your client feels about this. 00:16:43.956 --> 00:16:46.647 It, it-- Be, be honest. 00:16:46.647 --> 00:16:50.476 If they, if it upsets them, tell me that they're upset about it. 00:16:50.476 --> 00:16:51.226 I wanna know. 00:16:51.226 --> 00:16:53.346 The complaining party, same thing. 00:16:53.777 --> 00:17:04.297 So I'm sort of getting a little bit of that off the table because if not, when I go into the mediation, both sides are taking that time to present to me their side. 00:17:05.086 --> 00:17:18.477 like to look into it beforehand, ask questions, and then let's come down, sit down at the, uh, mediation table, let's, let's try to get things done 00:17:20.196 --> 00:17:28.156 And I'm understanding what you're saying so far, and it makes sense, but I'm imagining there's people and parties who just dig their heels in and are like,"We're not moving. 00:17:28.156 --> 00:17:40.557 Like, we're, we have right on our side, Stan, and I am not budging for that A-hole on the other side." So when you've got, like, one or two of those people and parties doing that, how do you break the ice a little bit? 00:17:41.636 --> 00:17:43.217 First I gotta tell them I'm not Superman. 00:17:43.936 --> 00:17:44.386 right? 00:17:44.807 --> 00:17:53.906 What, you're asking for is for me to don a cape a- and fly around the earth and reverse and turn back time. 00:17:54.727 --> 00:17:57.457 What's happened has already happened. 00:17:57.457 --> 00:18:02.317 F- for good, bad, indifferent, it's already happened. 00:18:02.646 --> 00:18:03.977 Where do you wanna go from here? 00:18:04.494 --> 00:18:04.825 Hmm 00:18:04.987 --> 00:18:12.747 continue to live in the past, or do you wanna come to the present let's try to get this thing resolved? 00:18:13.856 --> 00:18:15.247 "Well, they did me wrong. 00:18:15.277 --> 00:18:16.227 They did me so wrong. 00:18:16.227 --> 00:18:39.096 Let me go." And I said,"And the law has, uh, remedies for that, but you have to work within the remedies." I, I remember one time, um, and, and I'll, I'll check-- Well, it was even before I, I was a mediator, and I, I was talking to both sides uh, the, the company said,"Man, we just can't get him off this number. 00:18:39.106 --> 00:18:40.856 We just can't get him off this number. 00:18:41.277 --> 00:18:48.027 Um, he, he thinks compensatory damages ought to be..." And, and it was a mid number. 00:18:48.317 --> 00:18:56.997 And I said,"Okay." I went and did my research, went to the complaining party, him up one day and said,"Hey, listen," the attorney for the complaining party. 00:18:57.997 --> 00:19:05.777 "Listen, if you look at case law, and here's a couple, on your best day, your compensatory damages are this. 00:19:06.217 --> 00:19:20.386 And so if it's say 5,000 on your best day asking for$50,000, how's the company supposed to do that?" That attorney could do what I did and see that it's not 50, it's five. 00:19:21.078 --> 00:19:21.459 Hmm 00:19:21.487 --> 00:19:27.606 And so the complaining party went,"Okay, you're right," that they're looking at the facts and say five. 00:19:27.636 --> 00:19:30.787 Okay, well now the other side was only willing to pay 500. 00:19:31.987 --> 00:19:41.247 They went,"Okay, well how's the complaining party supposed to do that when case law says it's right about$5,000?""Okay, Stan, you're right about that. 00:19:41.287 --> 00:19:49.666 Uh, good with that." Then I get this side saying good with that and, and, uh, I make calls back and forth and they agree to that point. 00:19:49.707 --> 00:19:53.416 Then that right there now it's filling in the other blanks. 00:19:53.576 --> 00:19:56.646 Back pay what back pay is. 00:19:58.037 --> 00:20:00.537 It, it's not some made up number. 00:20:00.836 --> 00:20:03.576 It, it's how many days you've been out of work. 00:20:03.586 --> 00:20:04.146 That's it. 00:20:04.772 --> 00:20:05.313 It's math 00:20:06.037 --> 00:20:08.737 And it's at a discount to get it done today 00:20:10.015 --> 00:20:10.484 Ah. 00:20:11.154 --> 00:20:11.964 Yes, it is. 00:20:11.984 --> 00:20:17.474 If you keep this going open w- weeks and months and months, you're tallying up your bill there 00:20:17.901 --> 00:20:20.181 And there's no guarantee for either side. 00:20:20.191 --> 00:20:21.740 Nothing is guaranteed. 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:28.911 There have been cases where I thought,"Man, this is an absolute merit case." Gets to administrative law judge, not so much. 00:20:29.941 --> 00:20:46.560 Or solicitor of labor who are Department of Labor

attorneys, they say,"Well, you know, we're not feeling, that strongly about this case." And then there'll be cases like there is nothing here, and then surprisingly that ends up being a merit case at the administrative law judge. 00:20:46.590 --> 00:20:47.230 Go figure. 00:20:47.230 --> 00:20:52.951 But here's the thing, at the mediation table, you control what's going on. 00:20:54.090 --> 00:20:55.451 You're in control. 00:20:56.161 --> 00:20:59.441 If you allow it to go out of mediation, you're allowing 00:20:59.586 --> 00:21:00.537 not in charge anymore 00:21:00.891 --> 00:21:01.621 your destiny. 00:21:01.621 --> 00:21:02.121 Yes. 00:21:02.320 --> 00:21:05.080 So the two parties have control of their destiny. 00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:06.171 And you know what? 00:21:06.201 --> 00:21:19.931 In the workplace, when you have conflict, if you could get a manager and that employee to sit down and work things out, figure out where the conflict came, other than that, it's gonna get bigger 00:21:20.452 --> 00:21:20.893 Yeah 00:21:20.951 --> 00:21:28.810 bigger and, and, and it goes up to another level until, you know, it gets up to the chief of staff and now it's a big mess. 00:21:29.141 --> 00:21:51.000 But if you could create a culture in your workplace to where those things are handled at an early stage and people feel heard and listened to because managers know how to hold coaching conversations with their employees to draw the best out of them and create a culture where workers say,"Okay, I put forth my ideal. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:03.911 They didn't go with my ideal, but I know it's up there on the shelf." And that manager says,"Hey, there may come a time where we need to take that off the shelf, and if we do, then I'm gonna need for you to help me out with this to implement it. 00:22:04.701 --> 00:22:06.270 right now is not the time. 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:08.050 But it's a great idea. 00:22:08.111 --> 00:22:14.090 It's just not the time right now." A person-- Most, most people will feel appreciative of that. 00:22:14.121 --> 00:22:17.290 It, it's just learning how to have those coaching conversations. 00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:24.471 So again, going back to something you said earlier, communication is key in the workplace 00:22:26.308 --> 00:22:29.868 And I think catching these things early is so, so important, and 00:22:30.103 --> 00:22:30.502 Yes 00:22:30.568 --> 00:22:38.519 people avoid them'cause it can be uncomfortable or I don't wanna have a difficult conversation, but then weeks or months down the line, you have a big problem. 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:44.568 I mean, it can go to Defcon 1 quickly, and it's like you could've had the conversation way back here and avoided this whole thing. 00:22:44.598 --> 00:22:47.568 So, um, I'm, uh, I'm in agreement with you on that. 00:22:48.179 --> 00:22:49.078 What are some 00:22:49.330 --> 00:22:49.730 have? 00:22:49.790 --> 00:22:53.141 A, you know, a little small tennis ball rolling down the hill or a boulder 00:22:54.156 --> 00:22:55.576 Like Indiana Jones style, yeah. 00:22:56.005 --> 00:22:56.255 Yeah 00:22:56.886 --> 00:22:57.406 yeah. 00:22:57.537 --> 00:23:00.007 I, uh, I would like to have the tennis ball. 00:23:00.593 --> 00:23:00.732 Yes 00:23:02.676 --> 00:23:07.467 uh, if someone is kind of sensing, mm, you know what? 00:23:07.477 --> 00:23:16.386 Like, there's a little bit of tension, there's a little bit of sass, and that, you know, we had a team meeting and those two folks were kinda going at it a little bit, uh, a little bit sharply. 00:23:17.186 --> 00:23:20.186 What sort of conversation would you have at that stage? 00:23:20.196 --> 00:23:24.747 Where it's, it's not nothing, nothing blatantly blatant, you know, offensive or illegal has happened. 00:23:24.747 --> 00:23:28.126 It's just like, eh, I'm starting to sense this is getting to get out of control 00:23:29.189 --> 00:23:34.469 You kinda need somebody that can come in and try to play the part of a neutral. 00:23:34.729 --> 00:23:43.519 Uh, what they-- In the federal government, they have mediators, and they'll have mediators come in and mediate between management and e-employee. 00:23:44.179 --> 00:24:11.528 Uh, but i-if you got a real sharp HR person that can go in and, and act as a neutral, uh, a-as much as they can and hear out both sides, and then where they have positives, note those positives, but say,"Hey, you're gonna kinda have to give a little bit here because this is what policy says, and we have to go in accordance with our policy. 00:24:12.318 --> 00:24:13.969 And Mr. 00:24:13.969 --> 00:24:14.388 or Mrs. 00:24:14.388 --> 00:24:29.249 Manager, we have to make sure we're following our policy." where people get into trouble, particularly with, uh, employment law related issues, is they have progressive discipline policies and workplace policies that they don't follow 00:24:30.671 --> 00:24:32.901 Hmm, that never happens 00:24:34.444 --> 00:24:44.585 And you follow it with this person over here, you don't follow it with this person over here, and you're opening to door to issues. 00:24:44.625 --> 00:24:46.134 And, and it's just not necessary. 00:24:46.505 --> 00:25:08.315 If your progressive discipline policy a- and your workplace policy is not working 100%, tweak it, get it in place, train everybody on it, signature affirmation page that they went through the training so you can have it documented, and then enact your policy and treat everybody the same 00:25:09.669 --> 00:25:16.128 So I think that's a, a great point for folks who have handbooks and policies in place, and maybe they're a larger organization. 00:25:16.409 --> 00:25:22.318 Certainly something for a chief of staff to keep in mind if they're creating the first policy, rule book, handbook, et cetera. 00:25:22.719 --> 00:25:49.469 If you're at a company that's at such an early stage where people are going around, there's not really rules, there might be a few processes documented, but also Nick has a

napkin by his desk that shows us how to do this one thing over here, um, and you're sensing like some tension where it's like,"I gotta hold this team together and I don't want this to get out of hand," is there a, a question or a prompt or kind of a, a line to invite them to kind of talk to you one-on-one behind closed doors? 00:25:49.469 --> 00:26:01.019 Like, hey, you know, um, I, I, I used to, I used to use the phrase, you know, uh,"You didn't seem like yourself in that meeting," or,"You weren't yourself in that meeting." And they're like,"Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, but like that thing she said like really pissed me off," da da da da. 00:26:02.085 --> 00:26:02.295 Yeah. 00:26:02.295 --> 00:26:03.515 Talk, talk to me. 00:26:03.855 --> 00:26:04.285 Hmm 00:26:04.525 --> 00:26:05.204 Just talk to me. 00:26:05.444 --> 00:26:10.884 But if you're gonna tell a person to talk to you, allow them to talk to you. 00:26:11.714 --> 00:26:16.035 And in that moment when they're venting, they may be a little angry and they may say something off-key. 00:26:16.065 --> 00:26:16.535 Okay. 00:26:16.805 --> 00:26:17.134 All right. 00:26:18.555 --> 00:26:26.414 Now, I, I appreciate you letting me know that now, but I, I kinda want you to calm down'cause I don't want you to go out there and, and, and say what you just said here. 00:26:27.085 --> 00:26:36.875 Uh, but, but they may just, they're just a little frustrated and may, may have said something, and say,"Okay, you got that out. 00:26:37.335 --> 00:26:38.954 Here's what policy says. 00:26:39.954 --> 00:26:42.144 What's the best way of going forward with this? 00:26:43.214 --> 00:26:45.174 How can I engage your manager? 00:26:45.255 --> 00:26:59.075 Or manager, can we engage your, your employee to work with you to get the task that the company has set forward for that team or that division done?" 00:27:01.378 --> 00:27:23.469 And I think that if, uh, folks are listening are like,"I don't have a strong enough policy to lean back on," I think another thing you might use is, you know, the, the culture of the team or, like, being part of this team is about X, Y, and Z, where you kind of make the, the unofficial policy, but it's like,"Hey, for anyone who's gonna be on this team, like, we've gotta interact like this, and that's the standard. 00:27:23.868 --> 00:27:33.479 Um, that's just the accepted standard we have on the team, and implications like you're, you were real close to not meeting it there, so I just wanted to make sure that everything is copacetic." 00:27:33.997 --> 00:27:57.326 Well, one of the things that I do for businesses is to come in a-and have a, a strategic, we could be a, a two-day deal where I come in and the, the first day I'm just kinda getting to know about the company, finding out some of the issues, and trying to help them chart a little bit of a different course to make that culture change. 00:27:58.207 --> 00:28:19.507 they feel stagnant and they, being able to come in with the tools that I have help them push past to sort of change their vantage point of where they are to where they go, where they wanna go, and to put some action steps in place to move from A to B and then, you know, and continue to move forward. 00:28:20.237 --> 00:28:37.136 Sometimes it calls for bringing somebody in, uh, having a strategic conversation or having a conversation about policy, goals, maybe it's just coming in, teaching your managers how to have coaching conversations with their people 00:28:39.375 --> 00:28:42.964 And about how long do these processes tend to take? 00:28:42.964 --> 00:28:53.174 So take the example we were talking about before where you've got, um, you know, people going back and forth and you're meeting with them privately as two separate parties, and you're trying to get their ideal number. 00:28:53.194 --> 00:28:55.994 Here's, here's what policy says, here's what is reasonable. 00:28:56.615 --> 00:28:58.375 How long does that typically take? 00:28:58.375 --> 00:29:04.444 If someone's red hot, like coming in hot, like I'm gonna, you know, take a billion dollars from these people, um, how do you... 00:29:04.634 --> 00:29:07.184 How long does it usually take them to g- talk them down? 00:29:08.028 --> 00:29:11.788 my longest mediation just shy of 10 hours 00:29:12.845 --> 00:29:13.825 Wow. 00:29:13.875 --> 00:29:15.515 That's actually faster than I thought. 00:29:15.515 --> 00:29:15.845 Okay 00:29:16.037 --> 00:29:19.027 but I've actually got one done in 45 minutes 00:29:20.396 --> 00:29:20.876 Wow. 00:29:20.886 --> 00:29:30.027 So you take them from like red hot, I am an Instant Pot blowing steam, to no, I'm willing to concede a little bit and compromise to get this thing done 00:29:30.926 --> 00:29:37.856 Well, again, going back to the Instant Pot example, once you let that steam off and you open up the pot, the temperature goes down. 00:29:38.826 --> 00:29:49.507 And now we can start being real about what's there in the pot and dealing with that, and, and then working to resolve the issue. 00:29:49.547 --> 00:29:50.666 What is the issue? 00:29:51.426 --> 00:29:54.146 Do you truly want to resolve this today? 00:29:54.207 --> 00:29:56.207 All right, then what does that look like? 00:29:56.896 --> 00:29:58.886 You might have to give a little bit. 00:29:59.317 --> 00:30:01.846 Company, you might have to put up a little bit more. 00:30:02.666 --> 00:30:11.277 if you wanna take it out of the mediation a- and take it to before it gets to mediation, again, on both sides, what is the goal? 00:30:12.106 --> 00:30:13.836 The company has a mission. 00:30:14.707 --> 00:30:24.676 Um, they have tasks that they've given their divisions and their departments and their teams to accomplish that mission, and something's not clicking communication-wise. 00:30:24.676 --> 00:30:30.356 And a lot of times what it is, it's just like I'm a D personality, okay? 00:30:30.356 --> 00:30:31.707 And I'm talking about DiSC. 00:30:32.277 --> 00:30:36.096 Uh, I's

are h- I mean, the life of the party. 00:30:36.136 --> 00:30:37.826 S's are like the Rock of Gibraltar. 00:30:37.826 --> 00:30:39.517 They really love systems. 00:30:39.936 --> 00:30:41.606 The C's are analytical. 00:30:41.926 --> 00:30:45.737 And so these are all behavioral styles, but they have their own language. 00:30:46.116 --> 00:30:57.646 If I, as a D, come in and I know that I'm dealing with an analytical person, and all I'm talking about, I need things bullet-pointed, and I try to speak to them in a bullet-pointed fashion, they won't get that. 00:30:57.646 --> 00:31:04.856 But if I go to them and speak to them in their language, about details, giving them detailed information, they hear me. 00:31:05.346 --> 00:31:15.277 And so one of the things I'm also able to do with companies is to come in and teach people that not everybody's crazy, just not you. 00:31:17.227 --> 00:31:17.446 And so 00:31:17.457 --> 00:31:18.727 Good life lesson as well. 00:31:18.727 --> 00:31:18.926 Yes 00:31:19.116 --> 00:31:19.146 them. 00:31:19.406 --> 00:31:23.257 You, you have to speak to them the way that they hear things. 00:31:23.646 --> 00:31:38.977 You know, I remember being, uh, officer, uh, we were doing a big cruise, you know, we stopped in France, and I, I didn't speak, didn't speak French, uh, but when they, when they spoke French to me, I, I, I didn't understand them. 00:31:39.777 --> 00:31:49.067 we had to try to find some, some way to talk to, talk to each other a- and to communicate, which meant sometimes I had to do the uncomfortable. 00:31:49.987 --> 00:31:54.277 it's easier now'cause you can pick up your telephone and you can do like a translation deal. 00:31:54.277 --> 00:32:00.497 But I was st- I'd be struggling sometimes to, you know, to, to, to get my thoughts across. 00:32:00.626 --> 00:32:02.217 But that's what we have to do in the workplace. 00:32:02.217 --> 00:32:04.626 We have to understand there are different behavioral characteristics. 00:32:04.626 --> 00:32:05.856 Not everybody's the same. 00:32:06.636 --> 00:32:11.326 And if you wanna communicate with that person, you have to speak to them in their language. 00:32:11.797 --> 00:32:13.457 But the reverse is true. 00:32:14.307 --> 00:32:19.076 they're gonna speak to you, they need to learn to speak to you in the language that you understand. 00:32:19.076 --> 00:32:26.666 And when people are speaking to each other in the way that they need to be spoken to, things work a lot better in the working place 00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:33.719 And I like that language analogy because a lot of what I, a lot of people go,"Oh, they're not getting it. 00:32:33.719 --> 00:32:39.058 Let me speak slow, loud English, and then it'll get through." I was like,"That's not French." 00:32:39.586 --> 00:32:42.606 No, no, they're, they're, they're, they're not getting it. 00:32:42.616 --> 00:32:45.196 You ha- you have to get down to, to their language. 00:32:45.606 --> 00:32:52.596 And sometimes people appreciate

when you try to be authentic and real with them, you're trying to communicate. 00:32:52.967 --> 00:33:01.576 So while I'm in a restaurant and I'm trying to order, I may find somebody and just say,"How do I order this in French?" 00:33:01.775 --> 00:33:02.184 Hmm 00:33:02.346 --> 00:33:08.497 And we'll work on it, and then I'll go and say,"Okay." And I'll say it, they'll laugh. 00:33:08.686 --> 00:33:12.247 "Okay, we, we, we know what you want." They appreciate the fact that, you know what? 00:33:12.287 --> 00:33:14.957 I always found the service to be top-notch. 00:33:15.086 --> 00:33:15.547 Why? 00:33:16.356 --> 00:33:17.537 Because I tried. 00:33:17.934 --> 00:33:18.325 Hmm 00:33:19.287 --> 00:33:23.057 You're not always gonna-- That, that person's different than you are. 00:33:23.057 --> 00:33:25.936 You're not always gonna be able to connect exactly. 00:33:26.406 --> 00:33:40.376 But the fact that you try and you try on a consistent basis, most people are gonna be very good with that to say,"Hey, uh, he, he, he or she tries to get me. 00:33:41.307 --> 00:33:57.777 they really do try to work to understand where I'm coming from and to meet needs, uh, I have as an employee and the, the skills that I need and the supplies that I need in order for me to carry out the mission that the company has given me." 00:33:58.373 --> 00:34:01.323 They're trying to meet me halfway, which goes a long way. 00:34:02.002 --> 00:34:02.393 Yeah. 00:34:02.654 --> 00:34:04.744 Just meet them halfway. 00:34:05.144 --> 00:34:10.775 And yes, you may be the supervisor, the executive, you, you don't have to prove it. 00:34:10.775 --> 00:34:21.594 I, I remember being an officer, yeah, I, I had bars on my, on my shoulder, but I found that when I took care of my people, people took care of me. 00:34:22.335 --> 00:34:26.025 I found that as a supervisory investigator, same thing. 00:34:26.905 --> 00:34:30.094 Taking care of my people, they took care of me. 00:34:30.394 --> 00:34:32.394 There's something that Jeff Henderson says. 00:34:32.394 --> 00:34:34.335 He used to work for, uh, Chick-fil-A. 00:34:34.364 --> 00:34:40.315 He says, you want somebody to be for you, you need to be for them first." 00:34:40.407 --> 00:34:40.797 Hmm. 00:34:41.016 --> 00:34:41.396 Yeah. 00:34:41.757 --> 00:34:42.117 Yeah. 00:34:42.527 --> 00:34:45.166 How many cases have you negotiated, Stan? 00:34:47.434 --> 00:34:53.204 Uh, in my career, I handled, uh, just a little over 1,700 cases. 00:34:53.925 --> 00:34:57.335 I settled just shy of 700 00:34:58.277 --> 00:35:00.367 So 700 were successful. 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:01.030 Right. 00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:01.460 Right at 00:35:01.496 --> 00:35:02.217 Wow. 00:35:02.646 --> 00:35:03.206 Okay. 00:35:03.387 --> 00:35:03.876 Wow. 00:35:03.967 --> 00:35:04.436 Okay. 00:35:04.907 --> 00:35:12.577 And I mean, I'm really interested in this, but respectful of your time, what's the one thing that you would wanna get out to people we haven't covered yet? 00:35:12.577 --> 00:35:16.436 Like,"Look, I've done 700 of these things successfully in my career. 00:35:17.186 --> 00:35:20.106 Here's another thing you gotta keep in mind when you're coming to the table." 00:35:21.262 --> 00:35:27.543 As of whether you're a, a leader, executive, an aspiring leader, you're gonna have doubts. 00:35:28.463 --> 00:35:31.032 When I get to these mediations, both sides have doubt. 00:35:31.032 --> 00:35:34.893 They absolutely doubt that a resolution can be found. 00:35:35.902 --> 00:35:40.543 But not only will you find those doubts there in mediations, you'll find them in the workplace too. 00:35:40.952 --> 00:35:51.583 You take a look at a Kodak a Blockbuster, they had doubts about certain technologies and now they're not around anymore, and somehow we give into those doubts. 00:35:52.233 --> 00:36:04.413 those people come into the mediation, they've pretty much totally given into their doubts, I have to get them to shift their vantage point believe that resolution is possible. 00:36:05.193 --> 00:36:23.034 And what I try to do as a trainer, speaker, and coach is to work with businesses and try to explain to them there are doubts in your workplace too And I wanna try to help them overcome those doubts to become the best version of themselves as leaders. 00:36:23.034 --> 00:36:38.574 So do not be held hostage by your doubts, whether it's, uh, conflict resolution or trying to, perform a, a, a task or, or finish up a project o- on a high level 00:36:40.226 --> 00:36:44.007 And I think that's such, such a good reminder because, uh, uh, you know, a lot of people avoid things or don't do things'cause they're scared or doubtful. 00:36:47.347 --> 00:36:55.487 "I'm not quite sure how this is gonna go." And then they just let it linger and fester and do the ostrich tactic, which is like put your head in the sand and pretend it goes away. 00:36:55.487 --> 00:36:55.827 So 00:36:56.155 --> 00:37:02.076 worse than that, uh, you probably heard a story about the elephant, baby elephant tethered to a stake. 00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:03.311 Oh, yeah 00:37:03.657 --> 00:37:17.237 elephant learns that, I mean, it, it can't break it, so it grows up as an adult thinking that it can't break that flimsy rope, when actually it could break something many times more heavier and stronger than that rope. 00:37:17.715 --> 00:37:25.657 And so we get a mindset i-i-if people come into conflict thinking that,"I don't wanna have a part of that. 00:37:25.715 --> 00:37:27.476 I don't wanna deal with that. 00:37:27.936 --> 00:37:34.215 I'm not able to deal with that," and that's that doubt speaking and ruling in your head. 00:37:35.115 --> 00:37:55.396 You got to break that flimsy rope that's been tethering you in your comfort zone, which by the way, is not so comfortable, and step out a-and step into that, i-into that conflict because u-until you do, there are things you're not gonna be able to put to the side and move past. 00:37:55.416 --> 00:37:57.496 It'll always be there. 00:37:57.896 --> 00:38:06.155 Uh, you're in your comfort zone, huddled down, not wanting to come out there a-a- and you're holding yourself prisoner. 00:38:06.536 --> 00:38:12.335 You're ho- a-and sometimes companies hold themselves prisoner to their doubts. 00:38:12.376 --> 00:38:18.876 So what I wanna leave people with is that you are able to evict the doubts that have been squatting rent-free in your mind 00:38:19.936 --> 00:38:20.556 Love that. 00:38:20.567 --> 00:38:22.036 Stan, thank you so much. 00:38:22.036 --> 00:38:28.327 You've mentioned some of the things you do and how you work with people, but, uh, workshops and training and your book is out. 00:38:28.536 --> 00:38:31.536 If people are liking what you're putting down, where can they find the book? 00:38:31.717 --> 00:38:33.266 Where th- where can they contact you? 00:38:34.190 --> 00:38:43.150 Well, Emily, I'm gonna send you the link so that you can share it with your readers, but they can find me at stanlewis.net/home. 00:38:43.780 --> 00:38:47.780 S-T-A-N-L-E-W-I-S.net/home. 00:38:48.791 --> 00:38:51.490 Uh, there's a little pop-up form that'll come up there. 00:38:51.490 --> 00:38:59.001 You can put your, your name and, and information off in there, just a little thing for a comment telling me how you came across me. 00:38:59.641 --> 00:39:12.740 And, you know, if you have a question, put it off in there and, uh, we'll connect and give me some time to think into what you, you have going on and, and, uh, try to help you become the best version of yourself. 00:39:12.740 --> 00:39:16.280 And if I can't help you, I'm gonna try to find somebody who can help you 00:39:17.101 --> 00:39:18.101 And what's the book called? 00:39:18.724 --> 00:39:23.695 The book is called Evict the Doubts That Have Been Squatting Rent-Free in Your Mind 00:39:24.101 --> 00:39:24.610 Boom. 00:39:24.650 --> 00:39:25.170 Love it. 00:39:25.351 --> 00:39:27.740 We will have all that information in the show notes. 00:39:28.001 --> 00:39:29.581 But Stan, thank you once again 00:39:30.574 --> 00:39:32.094 Hey, thank you. 00:39:32.295 --> 00:39:39.335 This has been a joy, and I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to connect with you and your fellow chiefs of staff 00:39:41.494 --> 00:39:48.994 If today's episode gave you a new idea, a fresh perspective, or something practical to try, please consider sharing it with a friend or colleague. 00:39:49.574 --> 00:39:53.023 People deserve great leaders and becoming one is harder than it looks. 00:39:53.813 --> 00:39:59.364 Let's keep learning, growing, and getting a little bit better together, one conversation at a time.