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The Schweiz had all she wünsted.
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That said the Botschafter in Bern.
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And there spread from a last chance for the bilateral way.
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The handlings between Bern and Brussels is off the table.
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But begeistering niemand so rich.
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Is the Schweizer Europa müde?
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Wie weiter mit Europa?
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Darüber reden wir.
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Im Bundeshausstudio der SRG begrüße ich Sirena Kopat.
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Sie sind co-Geschäftsführerin der außenpolitischen Denkfabrik Voraus.
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When you in einem European kürzlich was in Hamburg, in Deutschland, with Nachdruck.
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Grossartig that I'm with Nacht to Hamburg comes.
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In many European Städten.
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Absolutely, yeah.
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It was for a week, and it was a political aufgeladen.
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The political, the Bundestagswah, the understanding, was really a theme.
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It was very disputed.
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Ebenfalls by us is Fabio Wasserfallen, you are professor for Europapolitik at the Uni Bern.
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Waren auch Sie in einem European landen?
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Yeah, the letter was in Italy and direct on the Grenze, also from Lugano rüber gefahren on the See in Como.
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And da ist vielleicht der Eindruck, dass es sehr fließend is, der Übergang and viele Gemeinsamkeiten, but trotzdem natürlich sehr viele Unterschiede.
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Aber ich gehe immer wieder gerne in die verschiedensten Orten in Europa, die unterschiedlichen Kulturen.
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Aber da ist vielleicht die Nähe zu Schweiz and dem Kanton Tessin auch speziell.
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Also eine Grenze, die man auf der Karte besser sieht as in der Landschaft.
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Genau.
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Und aus Groningen, Niederland, by uns zugeschaltet, ist Adrian Favero.
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Herzlich willkommen, Herr Favero.
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Sie sind auch politologe, auch Europapolitik is your fach.
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And you live in 12 years in Europa.
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Zuerst was Poland, then Schottland, nun dozieren Sie in the Niederland.
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We sieht man die Schweiz aus dem European Raum aus.
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Was ist Ihr Bild?
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Ja, die Schweiz is grundsätzlich kein grosses Thema.
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In Schottland was the Schweiz kein grosses Thema, also not in something with the EU.
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Man heard vielleicht zwischen GWM that the Schweizer good upgrades had.
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Man heard violent over a referendum, but there is not so many information here in the Netherlands and where I believed about the Schweiz.
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So I think the Grenzregion are wichtiger as Handelspartner, before the USA.
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I think it's without wirtschaftlich ja is the EU wichtig.
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There are 400,000 Menschen per day, also an unglaubliche.
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I think that must see with the geopolitical umbrüchen, in denen wir live.
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Will man a stable partnership with Europa in this geopolitical context?
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This is a new medicinal product.
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And that has an effective.
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So when we went to such protectionistic in the USA, then it can still happen that the Sweden align.
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And geopolitically, a two aspect to bring there Trump, but there are so much in the USA.
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It have the sound freedom for handling in Riyadh, where the USA with Russia on the table.
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When we have the USA NATO not as a ship's guarantee will for Europe, then there is Europe a wicker alliance of the Schwice, with which we could have.
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Fabio Wasserfallen, it is also a befriend in the Schweiz.
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What is this?
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Is this the early as Serena Gabbat beschrieben had?
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Frau Gabbat had a showing bog geschlagen, also with the geostrategie.
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I think when we just use the verträge spread, die to debate, is this handfest.
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We spread from Europa Mude and Conflict, but bilateral being to have the way betrayed.
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There is a gross begeister.
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The frame is: Is this a new quality?
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But I think the thing is not virulent and salient in the way of that problem.
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But it had to do that the meeting very zufrieden are with them, what we wanted in the 90s.
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And the frame that we still had is: we get this, in which form?
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But that beschäfted the leute, oder?
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Yeah, we are not to have a free time.
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We have a long failplan, and we have heute things besprechen, which the next three years beschäftigen.
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And deswegen is this vielleicht.
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So we are a bit selts when we three years ago in the Schwedge had four upstream, that this is a dramaturgy had.
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He is a time of gross freedom.
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This upcoming between the European Union and the Schwes is historic.
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Mi
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dispiace che non sente questo entusiasmo.
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Ma siamo come sempre il Consiglio Federale fa una comunicazione fattuale.
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Non si tratta né di innamoramento né di giornata nera.
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Si tratta di seguire con tenacità the interesse of the Svizzera and it's what is still made with this negotiation in a way intense.
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The Consiglio Federal has pressed satisfaction with the result that have super the expectatives.
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That is the word that it had to parliament to what you think.
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Fabio Wasserfallen, what were the arguments that this begeistering by the Bundesrates?
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Yeah, I think begeistering the wonderful beginning is.
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But at the moment, if the people in this land the feel have that the world thinks that this is wicked, this is wicked for the Schwitz.
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And when there is, then it's very good.
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Um was essentially.
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Adrian Favero, the role des Bundesrats ist entscheidend, haben wir gehört.
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Was würden Sie sagen?
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We should auftreten im Inland, damit das irgendwie ankommt.
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Ja, ich bin da mit meinen Frau Kapatten und Herr Wasserfallen eigentlich einig, dass es schon darauf ankommt, wie der Bundesrat kommuniziert.
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Ich glaube auch, dass es ein Vorteil ist, dass jetzt die erste Abstimmung darüber, das Volk wird jetzt noch nicht gerade befragt.
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Das heißt, man hat jetzt eigentlich Zeit, um transparent zu informieren und zu communizieren.
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Ich glaube, hier ist es ganz wichtig, dass man das auf Augenhöhe macht, dass man wirklich zu den Leuten geht and sagt, here, this is a complex Vorlage, it is a schwierige Vorlage.
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Man wird viel Reservation begegnen when es um das Thema EU geht.
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And da muss der Bundesrat wirklich hin und klar und verständlich communication.
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The leute, wo die Vorteile sind, auch Ängste ernst nehmen.
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Ich glaube, da, wie bereits erwähnt, this is the Bundesratsgeschäft, das wichtig ist, and da muss der Bundesrat tatsächlich auch diese Rolle wahrnehmen.
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And I think I can.
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Serena Gabat, is this really the Bundesrat, who quasi diesen carren ziehen muss, or gibt es auch noch andere Player, die ihnen in den Sinn kommen?
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Ich bin definitiv einverstanden.
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Damit das Vertrauen in den Bundesrat besteht, muss er verantwortlich übernehmen.
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But I think we should, and with we as civil gesellschaft, but it's other player,
before by the participants.
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Because the media spielen are a wicked role.
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And I think that are all gefragth, but we Herr Wasserfallen said the Burger or the Burgerin stays not even morning and thought, ah yeah, this Lebensmittelsicherheit is so wicked, but I think it is very stark that man this bewildered, why is it so wicked for us, or not?
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If we have and not dispute, and that one and one bewilder what this is, in which it is.
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Fabio Wasserfan, sehen Sie da eine Entwicklung?
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Es gibt offensichtlich eine Entwicklung.
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Es ist eine sehr anspruchsvolle Aufgabe.
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Ich denke, Frau Kapat hat zu Recht darauf hingewiesen, dass es viele Player gibt.
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Das Entscheidende, denke ich, ist dann wirklich, dass jede Akteurin in dem Bereich, wo sie glaubwürdig ist, auch Stellung bezieht.
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Es geht nicht darum, dass einfach möglichst viele sagen, das ist eine super Sache, aber warum?
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Und dann sind wir bei den Sozialpartner und da geht es um Lohnschutz, da geht es um eine ganz zentrale Frage bei der Personenfreizügigkeit.
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Und das sind die glaubwürdigen Akteurinnen, also die Arbeitgeberverbände and the Gewerkschaften, wenn sie sich finden, wenn die ein Massnahmenpaket wirklich auf den Tisch legen können, and that sieht besser aus als for a couple and month, that's the way that is a extrem wichtiges Signal.
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When this is or not, then is this either, before it began, would you innenpolitisch tot.
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Es gibt verschiedene sehr wichtige Bereichs.
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Lebensmittelsicherheit, but Lohnschutz, Migration, Gebiete, and the Gewerkschaften, the Social Partners are here the absolute central player, for the burden and burger to understand whether there is a good thing, or even not.
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And the parties are sterler.
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But it's not good, but swing.
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When this not function says politically, that's fair.
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It is a great generation that quasi with Europa is.
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We have uns an violence gewöhnt, gerade auch die Jungen.
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The bilaterale Weg, ich habe es erwähnt, is sehr popular.
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Deswegen is a grundsätzlich andere situation.
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This form of enthusiasm, Projektion, what is it?
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In become the wichtig of this, and the framework, what Frau Capata is very asked.
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We have this Brexit given, but I think this was another level and a dimension.
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But I'm gonna wanna be by the young people, or it's easier a bit an apathic.
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But I think that other themes virulenter are in the university.
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It's not so that all young students my course would, but they are in the bubble of the university, with other themes that they wish.
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The SVP spread from a underwater.
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The Sovereign is further.
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Souverinity is a weird beginning.
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But I spread to political eigenstands, but that is a integration in a binarin market and then on the undername of these regions.
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And the new dimension, which is not so nice, but we have Schengen and Dublin is the dynamism of the right, and also the strike.
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With souverainity, is then the framework whether we get the Schwitzer institutions, we get the direct democracy.
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Can we not have never say?
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And that is something that I expect where it disputed.
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One clear is this regiment that in the Schweden.
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This is actually what it should.
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We had by the EU to find, and then the Schweden said, we can not.
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We have the Schweden gives Schwitzer here, and we set this.
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man direkt aus Schengen, Dublin raus und immer mit dieser There is no alternative sagen.
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Man muss jetzt zu allem Ja sagen, sonst ist immer alles gleich zu Ende.
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Das ist keine gute Art und Weise, souverän zu bleiben.
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Fragen wir gleich nach Europa, Adrian Favero in Holland.
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Wie gehen, ganz kurz, wie gehen die europäischen Länder mit den Souveränitätsverlusten um, die in der EU halt einfach mitzunehmen sind.
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Ich möchte ganz kurz noch zurückgreifen auf das, was Herr Wasserfall gesagt hat.
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Mir ist, glaube ich, noch wichtig, dass diese dynamische Rechtsübernahme der EU, die ja oft debattiert wird, ich glaube, da muss man schon noch unterscheiden, dass dynamisch nicht automatisch heißt.
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Da gibt es dann schon noch rechtliche Instrumente, die we in der Schweiz auch to verfüging have.
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And in Europa is this tatsächlich so, yeah, man gibt nach allgemeiner Auffassung a Teil der Souveränität ab, macht das auch freiwillig, man möchte ja Mitglied sein der EU.
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Auch here muss man natürlich unterscheiden betonen ausschließlich der Zuständigkeit der EU, wie zum Beispiel der Solunion or by the Währung, when management, and geteilter Zuständigkeit, wie zum Beispiel bei der Migration, wo die Länder selber übernehmen.
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Of the other side becomes.
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Man
needs not the so genetic souverinity up, but man is teiling, these supranational personalfreize, many arbeits and work and man sites then.
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Also not even souverinity up, but man becomes then rechts and I think that is without Sinn, yeah.
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Many for three out.
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In the Schweizer we don't read.
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For violence Schweizer is central that they in the EU mittable and this personfreizügig have 8000 CDs.
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We have with the President of the Ausland Schweizer Organisation, Filippo Lombardi, and what without the community of Swiss abroad.
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In other freizion, the Schwedz not a three or four chance not to forget when this package.
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We will have a debate in the Rather, while there is free by us and the divergent organization.
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Bis has the ASOM to the bilateral underfucking.
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We see not that it's in the vergange.
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It is a teil ihres is a gross diemen, 2000, can diese diaspora allenfall in the ante discussion a very without perspective bringing when it's concrete them or personality, error in all function Schweizerinnen and Schweizer lives the health Schweizer lived in a European land.
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This is a great and I think there will be space even this discussion to what this then what the European land to get, when we are anything or when this in a land is in a land and also even in the Schwitze often to make these people to discute.
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I personally wandered, I've been to Growsbritton given and have what the Brexit was a spanning error that man in the debate can be a little bit more than a lot of people the eye the Schwiz spielt off.
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It is sicher processbedingt that it sounds ewigke and it will be processbeding or spielt off side je länger, je grosser, weil die grundsatzfrage besteht schon lange anders is natuurlijk offensichtlich unbehagen on the EU site that these grundsätzlich fragen diskutiert werden anders and that the Bundesrat selbst as the Region beim Rahmen upcoming the forhand had a forgotten and this is what a bit of this process can say that it is in etwa two years.
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But we must earn and say that many years spread good, but the problem is when it's a long and the same frame and in this speed man off, but it had either the insatic that trotzdem function.
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In that we see what this language would end.
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This could the positive sichtweise sein and not nurse spielen.
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Aber in drei Jahren wird sich auch die Welt weiter drehen.
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Serena Capazi has erwähnt the Sicherheitspolitik an Bedeutung gewinnen.
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Europa reagieren müssen auf die
neuen Herausforderungen in der Geopolitik.
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See an erreignis that the Schweiz wecken könnte on horizont, that a new dringlich in this thing.
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What seems that I think that what yes I make the press conference of Donald Trump in Riyadh from this.
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I think what in the moment in the USA but also with the NATO partners Europa and USA I think that is just the week wrong when that will when the USA not from a NATO was a message.
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We live in a great house and living in the middle of the drift and then it's okay what we then for a beat to the director who open and over and then a storm top and King and Feuer.
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It is a phase of the eye can also be a discussion insofar a bit in that which 90 years with the first bilateral eye.
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There are a comment and this is over 20 years the bilateral context and I would also say this will in a role in which the EU is what is in this law in the Schwedic to extrapolation what this in three years but actually is this relatively safe friend with that what off the table.
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It is not the EU right now to Russia better to the discussion in this integration in the Binmar in a form to do.
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And this has Trump and the great context to do it in the ways it is a role when it is the integration in the bin off the table.
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I need this as play for anything that it's what the ticket is a great button.
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It's a democracy and liberalism and how position the Sweden I think that's the function that we discussed in this packet that off the table how position the Swiss as a traitor of the democracy of freedom or not and I think there are we a bit by this discussion on this package in technical but I think the geopolitical spectrum is worth it we then bring that all without democracy it's vertigination.
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When vertiging PESCO there are mobility that the VBS is to say there are wicked but at the end of the day what we can relative to say that there is a great context and other fragments to do as all here the game when we are on the table.
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That is clear that is 1992 so facit from you, Herr Favero what you're discussion here in Bernard quasi this for me as Ausland Schweizer is this durchaus wichtig what Herr Lombardi the personfreizig is for us Ausland Schweizer schon ein central punch and day gespannt where the reise geht and aus professioneller sichtlich this wurde auch besprochen that es wirklich wichtig ist wie das jetzt in Zukunft geht, wie die Schweiz positioniert and der Bundesrat jetzt weitergeht mit diesem Dossier.
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Ich habe es vorhin erwähnt.
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Ich glaube diese ungefähr drei Jahre that we have sollten gut genutzt sein und da muss ganz klar aus einem Fahrplan her, wie man das weiter bearbeiten will und auch wie man das mit der Bevölkerung diskutiert anders, wie es da weitergeht.
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Also da hat noch die Regierung anders einiges an Arbeit for sich.
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Vielen herzlichen Dank nach Holland.
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Vielen herzlichen Dank Ihnen hier am Tisch.
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Danke Ihnen auch fors.
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Damit sind wir am Schluss dieser Ausgabe.
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