บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ What Does Effective HR Look Like for a Small Business? With Nicole Kearns

being able to be in that role where I'm advising on business activity and wrapping that up into people is sort of what's kept me into HR. And then now the investigation work is it's just so interesting. it's really it sort of ties it all together. investigations if you've got a good front end. you can avoid a lot of, me coming in and doing investigations, frankly speaking. So it's just the way my career has sort of progressed is just it's sort of been very natural along along the way. And it's very interesting because you're saying you came from like the entrepreneurial version to see into the HR, right? So you kind of saw the behind the scenes and what is necessary to build a successful business. Do you feel like those experiences really shape the way you approach HR today? Yeah. I am a small business. I am, right? So everything that I'm advising my small to medium sized businesses, I've done. I've been there, I've done that, I've walked, I've walked the path. I've had employees. I don't now, but I've had employees. So I know the difference once you start bringing those employees in and the shift that those small to medium-sized businesses have to make. So yeah, it's definitely shaped how I how I consult and how I advise clients. Absolutely. And you said something earlier that's so important too. When you build a strong foundation at the start, you can avoid so many headaches later on. You know what I mean? If you build that business manual, if you build those regulations in place, if you build those fail-safes, You're gonna avoid so many issues and further on. So it's do the work at the start to pay off later. Absolutely. Absolutely. it's the foundation of business. You have to have that in place in order to run a successful business. And not just avoid problems down the line, but employers have obligations. there's legislation that says you have to have these things in place too, right? And it's surprising how many businesses don't know they have to have those things in place, right? it's shocking. Actually. So, but again, I've been there, right? So it's you just don't know what you don't know. And it's not a fault to anybody, but it is very, very important up front. No. And that's what we say to people too. you own a business, you're a hairstylist, hair. You do everything to make that business successful when it comes to hair. And if you don't know the bookkeeping aspect, if you don't know the HR aspect, hire someone who does. Do what you do well and hire someone who does what they do well. and then that's where you that's where you a don't let the business run you. We had Diana Lidstone yesterday talking about bottlenecks and how your business can't grow. and if you set those things up in the first place, then you'll be able to do what you want to do. You know what I mean? You're not letting your business run you. Absolutely. And business owners always want to save money. Right up at the start, right? It's no, I can't afford to do that. I can't afford to hire that professional. But if you take a look at your time and you put that value on your time, yes, you absolutely can afford that professional because the time that you're taking to do that HR function or that HR or the accounting task, it's going to take your hired professional, probably 50% less of that time. So you have to take, you have to look at your own time as a business owner and put a dollar amount on it. And then that starts making sense to hire those professionals. Absolutely. And I feel like that's a trap with small businesses in general is we have this backward sense of time versus money. We would rather invest the time and save the money, but we don't understand that time is actually our most expensive and most valuable asset. Because all the years you put into learning HR or doing hair or whatever the thing may be, you didn't put that into running a system and you didn't spend all that time and energy just. to sit there doing paperwork. Exactly. Exactly. And you're not hiring an HR professional to come in and do your hair, right? so look at your appropriate experience too, right? And I think as business owners, you know, think you can do it all, right? And that's part of, you know, being that's taking that first step. And yes, having that confidence. So business owners are typically very confident people, but be confident and trust, So there's the trust component too, right? Because that's your baby, right? So outsourcing that, there's various reasons, but there's so many benefits to outsourcing professional that knows, you know, what they're doing and have that and have that experience and background. Yeah. Now at what point in your career did you realize you wanted to focus not only on solving workplace problems, but helping businesses build stronger stronger HR practices in the first place? as a consulting business, typically companies are bringing me in when there's a problem, right? So it's not I'm never getting the good like, hey, would you mind, you know, just reviewing this or that? It's usually like there's a storm and I need you to review all of my documentation and tell me, you know, where we're what I'm what I'm doing I'm doing wrong. So yeah. Have I seen a lot of those problems when they're a problem? Yeah. So I think HR people are inherently organized and knowledgeable in the in the upfront things that you need to do. So they see the problems and I'm no different. I see the problems. So if I can help my clients avoid those problems, because those problems can be very costly. Very costly. And the amount of money that it takes to just get your systems policies and procedures in place to avoid some of that. Not to say you can have all of your policies and procedures in place. You can you could be doing everything by the book and you can still have prompts, right? This is the joy of owning a business, right? So nothing's to say like if you have your policies in place, your procedures, you have all of

that, you're gonna be okay. it's not the case, but you're it certainly is setting you up for success and avoiding a lot of problems that I see now on the investigation side to say, well, that could have been avoided, frankly speaking. Now, just to go on a little tangent here, so from an HR perspective, you are getting thrown some really tough situations, you know, and that's really hard on the heart. How do you protect your own mental health? when you're seeing some of the worst of the worst experiences. Yeah. Well, you know, I think that HR has a lot of burnout, frankly speaking. I do see HR being one of those roles because first of all, you have to have heart and empathy to get into the role. If you don't genuinely care about people, you're not a good HR person. And I've seen those. I've seen HR people that just they're not they're not there for the employees, right? And I really do see that as a big HR function. So how do I protect my heart? sometimes I can't. and that's just the reality of it. you but you know what you're getting into. And there are certain certain situations that bother an HR professional more than others. you just try not to take it personal. And you have to find the things that get you out of that mindset. So HR typically isn't a job that you can you can just clock out at five o'clock and just forget about it all, right? There are there are people at the heart of it, and you do carry that after hours, no matter who you are. And so you have to find your thing that gets you out of that. And for me, that's fishing. It's being on the water. It's being with my little family and doing the things that we love and being able to disconnect from the reality of the world these days. And I think there's a lot more burnout for HR professionals now because there's a lot of conflict. We're a sensitive society. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of conflict and there's a lot of misconceptions about what HR does. And a lot falls on our shoulders. And because we are people pleasers and we are helpers, it's hard to say, Well, actually, no, that I can't help with that, or that should be a manager's responsibility. Or, you know, so it's tough. We want to take it all on. So boundaries are always really, really important in HR and in a in any role. But boundaries are always really important. So that's a really great question. and one that's often not talked enough about in the HR profession. Even as HR professionals, when you get together, it's you are the fixer, right? So it's very hard to say, I couldn't fix that, or I don't know what to do about this, or I'm having a hard situation, because the people who are having the hard situations come to you for the answers. it's I think it's getting talked about a little bit more, which is which is good. But yeah, it's difficult for HR people. Absolutely. Even when I did it, so I took HR at Humber in 2012 and it was a really great program, but it's funny, like there were bullies in the class. You're like, you're a bully, why are you trying to get into HR? But then we also had one class where we had to do like not the like the business versus the union kind of thing. And it was really interesting because Humber was very multicultural too. So we have so many people coming from different countries. So even just trying to figure out that system was so interesting, and it's just you're coming from so many facets. You're coming from gender from society from the typical problems that a b a business has so it's a it's really good that you have those systems in place to protect your own mental health, which is amazing. So thank you for sharing. When you walk into a business, what tells you it has a strong HR foundation, even if it doesn't have a large or formal HR department? Hey, strong. Well, I, you know, most people would probably say, you know, your policies, but I don't. I think what tells me that a company has a strong HR foundation is clarity. So you can have all of the policies in place. You can you can be doing everything by the book. But if nobody knows about the policy, if nobody has read the policy, if your managers aren't following and adhering to the policy and enforcing the policy, then you don't have a policy. And it's just words on I say paper, I'm aging myself, but on a screen. Okay. it's just words. and if nobody understands what those words mean or what the expectations are, then you don't have a strong HR foundation. you have a probably a strong legal defense, you know, because you've got it on a on a policy. But if that's all you're after, then you're not gonna have a good culture, right? And people are gonna leave your company. So it's clarity. Do people know what their job descriptions are? Do they know what their role is? Are the managers actually managing? Do your managers have training? You know, is there consistency? Are situations, similar situations handled similarly? you know, your documentation. your employees? Do they know where to go? Do they know where to who to talk to if there is a if is there a complaint? So there needs to be clarity throughout the organization, not just top level, all the way down through the organization. And I think that's something we really underestimate the value of in small and medium-sized businesses, especially as they're looking to grow and kind of hit that next level, clarity, so that those people stay with you because it is so much more expensive to go out and hire again and train and build trust in that relationship with a new person than it is to just actually have a good culture from the get-go. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you don't have a good culture. you're going to have turnover and turnover is very expensive. Yeah. And on that note, for a smaller growing business, where should HR actually begin? What are the fundamentals every employer should have in place? Well you got to start with your basics. You know, you got to start with your employment. contracts, your payroll

practices, you gotta make sure everybody knows that they're gonna get paid and paid on time and all of that stuff. And your health and safety. you need to make sure that your employees are safe. As soon as you start hiring employees, you need to start with those policies and those and the basics. But What I would say is that, Talia, you said a small and growing business. So I'm gonna kick it back to my recruitment roots. And if you're scaling and if you're growing and if you're bringing people into your organization in a in a in a rapid way, you better make sure your onboarding policy is very tight and your onboarding process because you can hire as many people as you want, but if you don't train them pro properly and treat them And onboard them properly within the first 60, 30, 60, 90 days check-ins, make sure they're getting the training, make sure they're getting the support, you're gonna lose them. So if you don't have a solid onboarding program in place, you better start if you're if you're growing. Pop performance management as well. You know, then, you know, once you're in, you've got your employees, you've got your employees who are trained. So you're doing a good job training them and their things are running smoothly. Make sure your performance management is well done. And even if employers think that they need to performance manage when there's a problem, no, you don't. You performance manage when your employees are doing good because you want those good employees to feel like they're doing good. And it's documented that they're doing well in their job. so I would say that for a growing business, if you're hiring, you need to have good onboarding. If you're a growing business that's just sort of starting and you're thinking about bringing employees, you better make sure that your basic employee, your contracts are dealt with, your payroll and your health and safety. is tight. it's emotional talking to you about this because I went through an experience with a small business where there wasn't any HR policies, and looking back, I'm like, my gosh, I got screwed over in so many aspects. And if like if they would have had an HR policy, I would have felt so much more protected. So when I'm looking at, you know, if I was moving businesses or something, going to a different organization. That's one of the things I'd be looking for now versus just going in with doe-eyed willy-nilly, being like, what are your HR policies? And if they look at me like I'm a troublemaker and they that's fine. You know what I mean? at the same time, I want to know that I'm going into an organization that values the protection of not just themselves, but of their employees as well. Yeah. You can pretty much guarantee if you go into a company and they don't have policies in place and they haven't had that forethought, it really as a as an employee, and that's a great. Point, Talia. As an employee, you didn't really know what you were getting into. And a lot of employees don't realize it, right? They're yeah, I've got a job. Great. Okay. But do you have a good job? Do you have a job that you can grow in? Do you have a job that is going to give you the growth that you that you need as an individual? Is your job matching your goals? And I think that's really important as a job seeker. And anybody who out there who's looking for a job, you can be picky. You don't have to take that job that is the minute you walk in, you know, maybe they have poor scheduling for interviews. Maybe they've, you know, pushed off a couple. If they have poor recruitment policies, they're probably gonna have poor employment policies. You know, so don't doubt yourself. As a job seeker, don't doubt yourself. If it doesn't feel like a well organized organization, it likely, it likely isn't. So Yeah, it's a it's a good point as an employee. You have to take a look at those things as well. for sure. And mine was mental health related, but some of these going into the construction businesses and landscaping and all of those, it could be life or death. You know what I mean? You want to make sure that they have those policies in place to make sure that all the rules are being followed. So, you know, food for thought there. But for a lot of the small businesses, and like I've grown up around small businesses, my dad was an entrepreneur, my husband bought into a financial planning business. I know a lot of business owners probably think we're only a team of one, three, five, ten. We don't really need HR yet. At what point does a business really start seriously thinking about HR? It should be at the beginning, but yeah, is there is there a trigger? You answered your own question. Yeah. The minute you hire an employee, you're doing HR. You might not be calling it HR, but you're doing HR. So I think that's what a lot of know smaller companies don't realize is that you're a business owner and you're wearing a lot of hats and one of those hats is HR. So you might not need a full-time HR person, but you do need to still have HR. So I think that yeah it's scalable. At what point do you need an HR as a as a small company? I mean legislation has things that require you know, at certain levels of employees, you know. So it's really HR starts when you hire your first employees. And it's interesting to Yeah, sorry. So like I my back right now I'm in an executive director as the BIA and we're looking into the health and safety for CPR. Like that businesses require staff to have their CPR certification and a certain level with how many staff and stuff. No one thinks about that, right? You're like, I own, a financial planning business. Who cares if I have CPR? Well, no, the health legislation says you need to have someone who knows CPR, right? And it's things that if you don't have those HR policies in place, if you don't have that, I don't know if it's still green, but remember the little green health book that you have to have hanging in your office.

You know what I mean? I haven't seen one of those in forever. They're still there, by the way. They are still there, but they're digitized now. But I do still c have a copy of my green book. So it's just installed and it's not going anywhere. I remember doing an exam where you had to look through it. You only had six minutes and you're like, God. Yeah. It's better digital. Now I know people tend to avoid it because you hear the word policy and you're like, I'm out. But policy and policies can sometimes feel like paperwork that gets created and forgotten about. Which policies or processes actually make a meaningful difference in creating a healthy workplace? Well, okay. Well, like I said, there's policies that you have to, like legislation tells you that you have to have these policies in place. So obviously your workplace, violence and harassment, you need to have those. and that comes into play after six employees. And then if you've got over 25 employees, then you've got your right to disconnect, your electronic monitoring policy, how are you monitoring your employees' electronics, if they have work computers, that kind of a thing. and then after 50, you know, you get into your accessibility. So there's those things that are they making a difference? Well, you have to have those. So there's sort of two parts to that. what makes a meaningful difference, in my world is your violence and your workplace harassment, right? You need to feel safe wherever you go and work. And employees need to know that if they don't feel safe in any way, they need to know where to go and they need to know where to report it. complaints and issues aren't always cookie cutter and sometimes it can be against your manager, sometimes it can be against the owner of the company. And there needs to be safeguards in place to make employees feel safe to report that. So you know, in terms of a meaningful difference, it's all kind of relative. Some might say it's the employee handbook. You know, like I walk in, I don't know, a thing about a thing or two. Make sure you have a handbook there. but you know, in terms of my world and what I'm doing now and what makes a meaningful difference, when I'm walking into a new job, if I feel unsafe in any way, I want to know where what to do and the steps that are going to be taken when something does happen. So, but again, that's my world. And you could ask another HR person and they they'd give you a totally different answer, right? There's so many policies and stuff to consider. so that's a tough, that's a tough question. because it can be all relative for me, it's knowing where to report issues. It's funny. I had one boss who was a partner at the firm that I was working in, and he had been having trouble with like another admin, and I'd been in a meeting, so I didn't know. And someone's like, His badge isn't working, and I was like, I had just had a really great meeting with one of the other partners. I was in cloud nights, I like skipped into his office basically. I'm like, Hey, I heard you're having a problem. Can I help? And he turned. And ripped me a new one, being like, I've told them I don't care about this. And he just went off. And you know, when you're like so on a high and someone like kind of I was like, Okay, okay, no problem. And then I like walked away and I started bawling in the coat closet. I was just, I was sobbing uncontrollably. And I wasn't gonna say anything. Doesn't my the like the supervisor of the admins walk by, see me crying in a coat closet? She's like, What happened? I was like, Please don't make it a big deal. I don't want it to be a big deal. And she's like, no, he can't talk to you that way. And I was like, please don't make it a big deal. I go into the kitchen. She's telling one of the other partners and they all look at me with these sad eyes. And I was like, no, please, no. And I was like, my God. And then all of a sudden I went back to my desk. I had cried in the bathroom. And then I came back and I look over at the partner's office and she's yelling at him. And I was just like, no. And I was like, this So much further than I wanted to go. And then I get a message. She leaves, and I get a message on my computer. And he's like, Can you please come talk to me? And I literally was like, No. Then he could like see me. And so I like walked into his office and he goes, I'm really sorry for yelling at you. And I was like, I was like, I'm a nice person. I was like, people like me here. I was trying to help you. And I was like, you were really mean. And it was Totally not HR level by any means. But and it did like it was a very kind of like opening experience for us in our relationship because finally, like, I'd walk by and like, don't yell at me today. You know what I mean? But there was no I didn't know who I could go to. I didn't want to go to anyone because it is really hard, especially when you're going against someone of authority. You're like, This is really hard to do, especially as a woman going against a man. Like it's not easy. Absolutely. Yeah. But Talia, not like you're diminishing that scenario. But I love that example because in that instance, you know, maybe not the individual who yelled at you, but your coworkers handled that situation. Yes, okay. He went she went in and yelled at him, and you know, don't you can't talk to like that away. But regardless, however you handle that situation, you can consider that situation as handled. It wasn't swept under the rug. It was dealt with. You were, and your reaction, let's talk about that for a second, because I think it's really important, right? As human beings, generally speaking, we don't want to cause a fluff. We don't want to be the center of you know a complaint or we but right is right and wrong is wrong. Employers have certain obligations. Now, this in this particular instance, he's in a leadership role. He has an obligation. I don't care if you're having a bad day. I don't care

what this the circumstances. It's not a defense for treating an employee in a certain way. So good on him for turning around and saying, come and talk to me. So he's not sweeping that conversation on the rug. He's having that difficult conversation and he's nipping it in the bud. And thank you for sharing that experience because it's a perfect example for businesses to go, that might seem like an insignificant detail, but follow me here. What if that hadn't have happened? What if nobody, nobody saw you crying in the closet? What if nobody dealt with it head on? How is that situation going to perpetuate? Are you going to feel comfortable going in and speaking to that director again? No. Are you going to feel comfortable in your role? No. Is there a chance that this can snowball? And if he looks at you a certain way, even though he's not even meaning to look at you a certain way, but because he told you off. Three weeks ago, he looked at me a certain way. And now all of a sudden I'm mad. And or you know, so it has so much potential to snowball when that scenario was dealt with. And on the flip side, I love this because you're saying that it was a joke. You know, you're able to say, you're not gonna yell at me today, right? And this is a perfect example of. You're humans, we all have bad days. Whether you're a manager, an owner, what have you, we all have bad days. We all make mistakes. A healthy workplace isn't a workplace without issues. A healthy workplace is a workplace who knows how to deal with those issues. There's issues all over the place. You can have your policies in place, but if you don't know how to deal with something like that, then You're dead in the water. You're going to have issues down the line. That was a perfect example. Thanks for bringing that up. I like that. You're welcome. And it's funny too, because you're coming from different stages in life, right? Like I was at a point where, like, if someone yelled at me, like I'd cry instantly. And not because you know what I mean? It's just a reaction, a visceral reaction. It's not daddy issues. It's just someone yells at me, I'm like, I'm gonna cry. And we had someone else come on our podcast and it was a really interesting one because she's like, When you're having these difficult conversations, it's okay to be like, I'm going to cry, but it doesn't mean this conversation can't happen. Like I it's just a reaction. We're just gonna move past this, we're good kind of thing. And then, you know, I did a year of insurance where like everything went to shit. So now I'm like, I'm not as sensitive as I was back then, but it was a really good opportunity to you're right, like closure, it was dealt with. I didn't fault him for him after it, you know what I mean? It was dealt with and I could move on and he could move on and we are good to go. So but I think that's a lot of respect for how that was handled. Yeah. And it's a good segue because how important is the role of managers and leadership in creating a strong HR environment? You can have great policies on paper, but still have an unhealthy culture. And you kind of alluded to that, but I really want to drive home the fact that if your managers and your leaderships aren't embodying what your company stands for. The paper means shit. It's kindling. Absolutely. Well, you heard this, you hear the saying. People don't leave their jobs, they leave their managers, right? We've all heard that. And it's very, very true. Managers, a good having a good manager, good leadership is massively important. It sets a whole tone for your culture. So I mean your managers, but again, your man, if you're a business owner, And you have managers who are not performing their function, then some people aren't meant to be managers. I mean, we all know that we've all had bad managers. I mean, don't think I've spoken to one single person in life that have been like, my managers have been wonderful. Not happening. So we've all had the bad manager, right? And it's typically, you know, the manager that, you know, doesn't document, doesn't follow the procedures himself, isn't enforcing, can't have difficult. conversations, can't give feedback conversations, doesn't know how to receive a complaint, doesn't know how to problem solve. You know, for HR people, some of the my biggest challenges as an HR person are managers. That we can't do that. It's in the policy that you should have read. So, I mean, yeah, this is so important. In as a business owner, if you put so much trust in your managers, make sure you're trusting the right manager. Make sure your managers are trained, support them. If there, if there's a gap, that's not to say, you know, that they can't be a manager. If they can't have difficult conversations, get them training. Recognize it. Have those conversations. You need to performance manage your managers more than even your employees, right? And there needs to be that reverse feedback too, right? So I always, you know, in terms of performance management, I always like I like it to be set up where the managers are held accountable, that the employees can share. Perfect, I might be able to have difficult conversations and I might be able to hit problems head on. And but, you know, my documentation's awful, right? So we are still human at the end of the day. And as business owners, we you have to find where the gaps are. Same as your employees, your managers, you have to find where the gaps are and make sure that your managers have that training. Because if your manager has that gap, what do you think your gap is going to be in your employees? Right. So, you know, you have to have. Good management. Leadership is everything in a culture. And you will, again, back to the retention, back to the turnover. If you don't have good management, good leadership, you will have turnover. You will just, you will spend so much money on hiring and firing. And it's a vicious, vicious circle. So they are

everything, they're massively important. And I think too, this is the perfect segue for it because I think a lot of the problems that come to HR is because difficult conversations are something that many business owners and managers struggle with. What happens when the leaders avoid those conversations about performance, behavior, or conflict because they're uncomfortable with having them? And like I think back to like my experience with a I had there was no difficult conversation. There was never any like write-ups or anything, and then all of a sudden they're like, you're let go. And I was like, Where, you know what I mean? we didn't have any of these conversations leading up to It was just so, anyways, I look having these conversations. I was like, my god, it was such a horrible toxic workplace, and that's it's okay. we're learning and we're growing with it. but how do we help those leaders have those difficult conversations? Because they really are important. if they're to my mind, early intervention is one of the best risk. management tools that an employer can have. It's absolutely important. And if your manager can't have difficult conversations, then I can almost guarantee there aren't a lot of things that are sure in this life, but the problem will not disappear. Right? It might if that person decides to quit and leave the company. So yes, does it disappear? Sure. But it doesn't because You still can't have difficult conversations. So every time you have to have that difficult conversation and it's avoided, it's not going to go away. So if your manager can't have difficult conversations, you need to train them. it's part of it. And this is probably very direct, and probably some people might disagree with me, but if you are a manager and in people are in your charge and you can't have a d difficult conversation, I don't feel like you can be a manager. It's just as plain as I can put it. You are going to have difficult conversations. If you are managing people, there are going to be scenarios. It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. And if your managers are not comfortable with having difficult conversations, they don't need to be managers. Put them put them in a different role. they have lots of transferable skills, I'm sure, because you put them in a management position to begin with. But a lot of companies make the mistake of Putting a square peg and a round hole. Well, he's got the most experience. He should be managing. No, he shouldn't be managing. He's very good at his job, but he's not a people person. He's terrible. He's a terrible people person. And that, my friends, makes a terrible manager, right? So yeah, I think that you need to support them. You need to have those honest conversations. It's okay to say, Bill, you really struggle with difficult conversations, and that's okay. We want to offer the support. So before you just say, okay, Bill, you can't talk to people, you gotta go. Say, Bill, you know, we're gonna

we're gonna give you the support you need. If you want the support, sometimes those conversations happen. I cannot tell you the amount of times I've sat down and talked to a manager giving some coaching and they look at me and they say, I don't want to be the manager. Don't want this job. They gave it to me because I have the most experience. Okay, well, now we're getting somewhere, right? Now we're understanding. that this role isn't right for you. You've got all this loads of experience, but we'll put you here and we'll put somebody who can have those difficult conversations in that role. And yeah, so you gotta support those managers and just realize when a fit just isn't a fit. And the flip side of it too, it's teaching our employees to have the difficult conversations. There's so many problems where the employees are scared to be like, I failed at this or I don't know what I'm doing. They don't want to seem like they're incapable or, you know, that they don't know what they're doing. It's just like, teach them that it's like you need to ask questions. You need to fail. This is how we're gonna learn and grow as a company. And you know, I would be more upset if my employee didn't know what was doing and was hiding a bunch of things or taking shortcuts to avoid the problem than just having the 10 minute conversation be like, hey, I'm struggling with this. Can we talk it through? Absolutely. Absolutely. at the end of the day, that says speaks to your culture. If you don't have employees that are coming to you with issues or questions, it's not that they don't have them. It's that your culture says that they're not comfortable to bring them forward. So silence isn't always, well, we obviously are doing everything right. No, no, not at all. And In that case, I always encourage managers to do those check-ins. You know, don't wait for the employee to come to you because most good employees won't complain. They'll try and figure it out on their own. And yes, they might waste a little bit of company time, you know, trying to figure out on their own, and that's okay. But ultimately, you need to check in with your staff to say, especially new staff, this is those that 30, 60, 90 days, right? Like have structured forms that says what is the training that you need to receive. That we haven't trained you on. Where are you struggling? Where are the gaps? Your new hires are the biggest indicators of where the gaps are in your policy and your process. So I mean, I think it's really important. It's really it's important. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Something you also specialize in workplace investigations. What you've seen in that work. Are there common issues that could have been prevented or at least addressed much earlier with stronger HR practices? Yes. Yeah. you know, yeah. Investigations, what I what I've seen is that similar to new employees, investigations on the end of it can really identify gaps in processes and training and that kind of a thing. So yeah,

it's full circle. I always did investigations. I've done investigations for many years as an HR individual. And but now that I'm focused on it, Yeah, I see it even more. it's interesting to go into an organization and understand because when you do an investigation, you need to understand everything. It's not just here's 10 pieces of evidence. Let me know what you think. no, you're going full Nancy Drew on this. yeah. You gotta you gotta get everything from them. And it's really, really eye-opening. I don't make decisions. So all employees All employers hire me to do is the facts, the findings. I'm not hired to produce a finding based on what the employer wants. I'm hired to produce a finding based on the evidence presented. And that evidence can include documents, policies, procedures, and interviews. So that's what they're hiring me to do. And when they get that report at the end of it, then they make their decisions from there. They they've got the finding. I've gone through, I've d dug, I've got all of the information, and it's impartial because I didn't know anything before I started here today. So a lot of HR, and I can speak to this because I did investigations as an HR professional. And as an HR professional, you hate investigations. It's like, whoa, because you have to be timely about them. You have to take that complaint seriously. And it throws you off of. everything else that you are doing and it's very hard to give the focus that a an investigation needs. Now can HR folks do an investigation themselves? Of course. Of course they can. But you have to when you get a complaint, you have to investigate appropriate to the complaint. You know, so Emily is stealing my pencils. Well okay that's something that I can investigate. I'm the HR person. I'm going to take a look at it. I'm going to take seriously. For sure. Engineers really like their mechanical pencils, by the way. So it it's you you're gonna take it seriously. But is that, you know, is HR gonna investigate a complaint that comes in from an employee who suspects the CFO is embezzling money from the company and they are aware that they caught them and has threatened their job if they say anything? Nope. Bye. That's going out. Right? So you have to. You have to judge when you need that external. and sometimes having an external can be very, very beneficial. Does every complaint require an external investigator? No. No. So part of what I offer too is especially clients that I do HR work. And I want to be very clear that I don't investigate an issue and then turn around and HR consult on it. That's a conflict. So, but I've got many HR folks in my in my network that I can I can pass that off to. But I don't, it's a conflict of interest. but I will make some recommendations. So in that investigation, if there's big gaps, then I can in my report say this is what the investigation identified. And It's these are just recommendations. They don't have to they don't have to take it. They can take my report and they can decide to do nothing with it, right? It's entirely up to them. But they have a formal report that includes it's very it's a snoozer, let me tell you know, 17 pages, just very, very formal stuff, right? But it's a safeguard for them and it shows them that I've been very thorough in what I've done. So it depends on how serious the complaint is if it goes out to investigation. But I do see a lot of things that could be avoided if you're you have the proper and not just the policies. Again, I'm gonna I'm gonna hit it home. It's not just having those policies, it's just making sure that there's clarity on those policies. Your managers are enforcing them and that employees understand what the expectations of those policies are. So funny, this brought up a memory when you said about the mechanical pencils. My first day at EY, it was right my I was my first day back to work after my first baby Matt Leave kind of thing. So it was like finally leaving her. and I had a salad and then I had a piece of her birthday cake in the fridge. And I had put it in the fridge. And you know, it was really hard being away from my baby the first time. And all I could think of was like, I'm gonna have a piece of her birthday cake. I'm super excited, it's gonna make everything better at lunch. And I went into the lunchroom and I found my salad, but the cake wasn't there. And I was like, no, no. And it was like the first day there. So I was like, no, what kind of horrible workplace did I just walk into where someone eats a piece of birthday cake? And I'm like looking through all the containers. I couldn't find it, found my salad, found my apple. And then I couldn't find the container. I was like, did someone steal my container too? And I looked at the dishwasher and opened up the dishwasher. Someone ate my cake and then put the dirty container into the dishwasher. I like they were doing me a favor. my God. I went up to the girl who was training me. I was like, is this the type of place we are? I was having none of that. She's like, do you want me to send an like a firm wide email? And I was like, no, I don't want to rock the boat. But like I'm gonna do it again. I'm gonna put X Lacks in the next one. But I didn't. But I was like I was like ready to like burn the place down over a piece of stolen cake. I would be lying if I haven't advised staff to label their lunches in the fridge. I had one alone. I had a Bubba Ganoosh like hummus container and I literally said telly is hummus and then in it I said I double dip you'll be eating my spit. And this is like a top notch accounting permanent strategy. Very good strategy. Yeah yeah watch out I have Jeremy children at home. Right? Like I'm just saying how it is. Go for it. And that's like Right, when you're in your third year and you see all these newbies, I'm like, no, I will fight you if you eat my baby canus. Bring that too. Then it would be an HR complaint. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'd be like,

you know what? I mean like I said what I said. Now this is you know, so we kind of talked about the what we do to avoid any of kind of the problems kind of thing. But when an employee does bring forward a complaint or a concern. What should a business owner or manager do first? And what should they avoid doing? oftentimes, it's a small business, they don't want to rock the boat if there's only like three employees, right? And then it's like, so what do you do versus a small or a big organization? I get this question all the time. and you know, mostly for managers that I'm advising. And my advice is always to listen. Typically Policies state that go to your manager and then HR, right? So there's usually that's the route to go. So usually it's the manager first. So I always advise to make sure that they listen because your managers are geared to fix problems. And it's a natural reaction that when a pro someone comes up to you with a problem is just to fix it right away. So first of all, the dumps. Don't hesitate, don't rush out to confront that person who did the thing, right? So just sit tight, listen, take it all in. you want to thank them for bringing it forward, right? And I think that the biggest misconception about complaints, workplace complaints that I've experienced is that employers think that because it's a formal complaint, it's in an email, it's in writing, I'm booking a meeting to talk about this, that it's that that's a formal complaint. But as soon as an employer knows about an issue, a complaint, especially very serious, you can't unknow about it. So it doesn't matter who that who brings you that complaint, how it's presented, how that information gets to you. But once that information gets to you, as an employer, you are obligated to act on it. And that is legislation. You have to deal with it. So the first advice is always to listen. Understand what is going on. with that complaint. Document it. Take good notes. I always recommend that you thank the person. You know, even if that person is, you know, always coming with complaints or this or that or what have you. And part of the reason why you do want an external sometimes. But thank them. Make sure that they're they know that they're in a safe space to talk openly about that complaint. Don't ask them if they want to make it formal. It's you don't need it to be formal. And I get that all the time. Okay, well, put that to me in an email then. No, it's not. You don't need to do that. It's you can have a conversation about it. and then do act on it quickly. You should be wrapped depending on the level of complaint, you should be wrapping up general complaints within a two to three week time frame. and communicate with the complainant. throughout. you can't you can't tell them everything that's going on, right? But you can let them know that this is we we've got your complaint, we're handling it. They will be involved depending on the level of investigation, right? Complaint versus level of investigation, right? I've done things where again, Jimmy's taking my pencils. Okay, well let's it's a mini kind of investigation and you know versus sexual harassment. You're it it's very, very, very detailed. So make sure that you're dealing with it in a time as timely as you can. That would be the advice. But just listen it it's it doesn't have to be fixed right away. And a lot of times that that's the biggest mistake I see employers doing is just rushing to fix it right away. And you just need to understand it and give the other the respondent so we call it complainant versus respondent give the respondent a chance to fairly respond. Because just because it's a complaint doesn't mean it's accurate. I mean, maybe Sally didn't steal Jimmy's pencils and she doesn't even know what Jimmy's talking about, right? So and it happens a lot, right? Or Sally didn't do it, Tim did, you it's so this just from in my experience, a complaint can go so many different ways. And typically whatever you assume isn't usually the case. So Now, something that's really important, I think, for many of our listeners who don't maybe have the big businesses. You provide fractional and interim HR support as well. What does that look like for a business and how can it help an organization that isn't ready for a full time HR professional? So does a small business kind of hire someone like you to come in like once a month or if someone has to deal with it? What does that look like for a small business? I can look like whatever they want it to. I've got some clients that I'm just sort of there. When they when they need something, they can call. it can be, you know, an office manager that's handling HR or a junior HR, and all of a sudden a senior level situation arises and they need to bring somebody in. You know, the junior can handle most of it, but there's this it's situational. and then really when there's a gap in an HR department. So I've got a lot of clients who realize, yeah, I do, I really need this. So I'll go in and I'll start, handling those important HR issues because I can step in and handle those HR issues, but I won't be their hero, but I will help them build their HR department. So HR is such an important role that you know a manager or an owner can interview an HR person and not know if their answers are correct, if they know what the heck they're talking about. That's why they're hiring HR. So I can come in and help a company make sure that the HR person that they are hiring is competent to deal with the level of HR requirements that they need. So it's really scalable. It's really scalable. And I do deal with a lot of small medium-sized businesses on the fractional side and investigations I can I deal with small and I deal with large corporations as well. So typically large corporations already have their HR department, but if they have a gap or if they're restructuring or something like that, I can come in and help them with that. But typically it's

the small to medium size that are like, I really need this now. Can you help me build that HR department for me? As companies are starting to think about that, these smaller companies that maybe they've only got two employees, they've got a couple of contractors, whatever the case may be, even if they're not ready to hire, even as a fractional HR consultant, they still are under the guise that they can do these things themselves, bringing in someone knowledgeable to do training on how to handle difficult conversations, training on how to handle a complaint from both sides of it, because teaching people those communication skills. are so valuable no matter what side of the business you're in and that will make such a huge difference in your ability to have longevity and growth. Absolutely. And thank you you're actually mentioning a service offering that I also provide that I haven't really touched on is I will come into a company and I will sit with managers and I will tell them how to deal with a complaint. I will coach them on, you know, even the policy. If a company has a policy in place, I'll take a look at that policy and I'll train the managers on how to enforce that policy or understand that policy. So yeah, it's definitely important and the training is key. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Now just to kind of finish it off Is there something you wish you could have told your younger self before you kind of start your business? that's such a great question. probably for HR it would be to expect the unexpected. I think when I got in this, I don't even think I realized, you know. and you know, younger me versus older me now. I think younger me made a lot of assumptions and thought that I knew a lot of the way things would go in terms of. employees, people will fool you. And that's probably the biggest thing that I've learned is you might think that this is cut and dry, this is straightforward, and then all of a sudden, well, it's not. And so don't make assumptions, ask a lot of questions and listen. You know, from a business owner perspective, I would say that it's tough. You know, you have lulls, have highs, you have lows. focus on The service that you would want to receive if you were hiring that person. And when I take a look at HR and problems that companies are having, I take a look at my own business. And what if I was having this problem? How would I want this person that I'm hiring to handle this for me? And it depends on what your business is. So don't lose your heart because it's not just business. don't lose your heart and You'll keep your business going as long as you have the heart for it. So it's been 20 plus years now, and I'm still going in HR. I've moved and now I'm focusing on so keep it fresh. Keep it fresh and keep doing what you like to do. That's amazing. There's so many opportunities like through this conversation where I've just sat there nodding, being like, yes, we need people need to hear these things and So I think this conversation is going hold so much value for our listeners. Before we let you go, can you tell people where to find you online? Absolutely. So right now I've got a website, so smartworkplaceinvestigations.com. you know, it's issue it's interesting with socials. So Higher Smart I've had in business for quite some time now, and Smart Workplace is a division of Higher Smart. So I've got the website there, email is probably the best, and that's Nicole at smartworkplace investigations.com. Don't do a lot of socials, you know, because investigations are so confidential. So I do a good job for a client and they say, Well, I've got someone else who could use you. best way to get a hold of me is on LinkedIn. I'm big on LinkedIn, so just Nicole Kearns on LinkedIn, you can send me a message there or through my email. And one thing I always like to say is that I'm always willing to offer a consult. I'm not gonna give you a five-hour free consult, but if there's especially small to medium-sized businesses who are very cost conscious and they just don't know what they need. I'll usually I'll come in and I'll offer, 30 minutes. Just talk me through with what you need, even if it's a complaint. No, you don't need an external investigator. Just handle it. And this is what your steps are going to be. no, you don't need a full blown handbook. You've only got one employee. Just make sure that these policies are in place. So happy to, you know, talk to small to medium sized business owners, especially in our community. I'm very community based. You girls are very communic community based. I love what you guys are doing. for businesses in the area. So definitely if there's a business in the area that wants to talk and just to kind of know and get some information, I'm more than happy to talk to anybody. I love people. I think it was really funny you were talking about such like important things right at the end there. And all of a sudden I was like, gotta make a really good reality TV show, like Real Housewise fucking jar. And then I was like we It would make a very good reality TV show. I mean, I'm surprised there isn't an HR reality TV show yet. Due to confidence confidentiality, but still it would make a really good. I think I think there would be the viewers. It'll be after the Talia's and Nature Wild segment, and that'll be yours. Find us a video producer. We are in business. Yeah. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Thank you to everyone who has listened today. And we can't wait to catch you on the next episode of Let's Network the Podcast.