บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ #307 - The Roundup

be charged. Was it not only just one charge they didn't get charged for? Were you quite surprised? Jeeks: Well, yeah, th that Daniel, this is the first thing I wanna say is that for years now we have heard Man City as a club and all of their fans say, Well, you know, let's say we get let's say we get charged with we get found guilty of fifty of the charges, or sixty of the charges. And they they seem to have gone in with a confidence of we're only gonna get a certain number of charges found guilty. There's no way we're gonna get found guilty of all of them. And I think the funniest possible scenario is that they're found guilty of everything except one. so I I got a good laugh out of it. Daniel: Yeah, I thought it was actually more funny again, I know we shouldn't lie. So know there's some genuine like fans involved. And I do actually feel I'll say that now, I do feel bad for some of the city fans. As much as you're saying it's funny for you don't wanna see that happen to anyone's club, but at the same time if you're caught cheating, you're caught cheating. But there is something funny about just one charge not sticking. Like in a way it's Jeeks: Yeah. Daniel: actually funnier than all of the charges sticking. It's like, no, that one. Jeeks: All the best lawyers in the world only looked at one charge and went, We're gonna fight that one, no? Daniel: Yeah, they they still get their money after it because they got you out of one. So like congrats. yeah, Adam, what was your we'll kinda talk more but I just want to hear first, what was your initial reaction to it coming out? Adam: Finally. Funny. We're still a million miles away. No, couldn't think of death. We're still a million miles away from... The third death was... Yeah, future. We're still... Daniel: Is there a fur death? I was really hoping. I was really praying there was a hard death there. Jeeks: Future, future, future. Adam: I think the frustrating part is like, we finally have some form of clarity that they are going to lose the majority of this case, even if they appeal it. And there will then presumably be harsh punishments. off the back of that given what we've seen for the likes of Everton and stuff in recent years. Daniel: Yeah. Ever and Forest, yeah, in Chelsea. Adam: Yeah, you had to fit yourself in there then. Daniel: Well, no, the reason I the Chelsea one actually is very important here. And and I think it's actually and I don't know if you've thought about this, 'cause obviously as a Chelsea fan, I'm starting to go, Yeah, but we did stuff. The whole reason where this is different, and I think this is where why I don't understand City approached it the way they did. When our new owners came in and you know how much I've moved on podcasts previously about owners, they came in and self-declared and said, There's something dodgy going on. This happened before we joined. But they were also and that was part of investigation. Chelsea provided all of the documents, didn't hide anything, were very cooperative. Adam: Yeah. Daniel: Even when the punishment came out, that was part of the punishment, saying that they cooperated. Adam: Yeah. Daniel: Where the city have been saying that as you guys were laughing about, nothing's done wrong. Even as of yesterday, the chairman still coming out, I mean time stamping it. The chairman coming out and saying to us, We're not that worried about it. We'll fight this. This is totally fine. they're still not taking any responsibility for Adam: Yeah. Daniel: it when there's clearly and obviously been cheating going on. And this Jeeks: Yeah. Daniel: is why I'm for sure as a Chelsea fan, 'cause I see some city fans going, again. And I know like I love Mourinho as a manager. And Jack, you've had the pleasure of him manager too, but this whole victim mentality that sometimes clubs create for themselves, it felt very Mourinho. It's like, well Chelsea did it. Luke, they barely got anything. Forrest did it. They only got s like, why are we getting so heavily punished? And I'm Jeeks: Yeah. Daniel: like, these other clubs are taking responsibility. You guys are sitting there Adam: Yeah. Daniel: going Jeeks: It's interesting Daniel: No. Jeeks: how the goalposts have moved from we did nothing wrong to well they did stuff wrong as well. It's like, but I thought you didn't do anything wrong. Like why why do you have Adam: Yeah. Jeeks: to use a comparison when you guys are a hundred percent innocent? Daniel: Yeah. Jeeks: And I think Adam: Yeah. Jeeks: yeah, I think when you look at it I mean a big part of what they're f getting found guilty of is non cor cooperation with the investigation. They Daniel: Really? Jeeks: tried to put up smokescreens and try and hide stuff, even while the investigation was already ongoing. which is part of the charges part of those hundred and fifteen charges is that, is the non cooperation as well. So in f effectively they've made it worse for themselves through the process. Now Adam: Hmm. Jeeks: look, there is a certain degree which I do have some sympathy with a Man City fan because they they feel like a s they feel a connection to the owners. They feel like, you know, we've managed to come in, knock my United off the top of all their winning dynasty. We've managed to get our own We've won a Champions League, got our own treble to throw back at the neighbors. However, there must be a certain point where you go, But we've been misled, we've been lied to, we've been having conversations with rival fans and saying, Well, the owners say we've done nothing wrong and I back the owners, so we Adam: Yeah. Jeeks: did nothing wrong. Like they should be more angry than us. They should be livid. Daniel: Well that's why I said sorry for the fans 'cause I remember for the Chelsea news broke and I was 'cause I remember you guys and I get it, football fans are fickle. You guys are girling me be that's your club and stuff like that. I'm like, Well, I didn't do that. Like it wasn't my

fault. Like, and then all this news comes out about it and stuff like that. So then but what is frustrating and again it might just be 'cause algorithm always guides you towards extreme fans, I've just seen a lot of like pity party sort of stuff. And even now it Adam: Yeah. Daniel: doesn't help the city are still not taking responsibil. And this is why I think this is different. That's why I to clear that up. I know you guys joked about Chelsea coming up and even why everything forest but this case is so different to any other case that's happened so far. And why I think Jeeks: Yeah. Daniel: this has got much more media coverage than anything else. And even Chelsea, Jeeks: I mean Daniel: just if you remember, have even with corporating which we can talk about punishment soon, have a suspended sentence. Again, suspended, but transfer ban and the stuff like that. It does make you worried how serious these consequences could be, 'cause Adam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: that's a club self reporting on their own issues. Adam: Yeah, and I think that's worth remembering, that this came about from a hack. That is the reason City got found out. Nothing to do with them being willing to report on these issues themselves. Which was then, there's kind of original defence, was almost like, wasn't our fault we were hacked. Even if you were hacked, there shouldn't have been any irregularities in the finance in the first place. That wasn't the real issue here. Jeeks: I mean this is I've gonna draw a really weird comparison here, right? But do you remember when the US government earlier this year released the Epstein files? And they redacted a bunch of it. And it turns out that they've redacted it really poorly, where you could actually see a lot of the names and find out who they were actually talking about. Those people turned round and went, Well, it was redacted but you weren't supposed to be able to find out my name was in there. It's like, Well, tough, your name is in there. You have done this stuff, so therefore You deserve the punishment that comes the way. Like, you can't Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jeeks: say, Well, we got hacked, or we were that's that's out of our control. It's like so you were still hiding the stuff. You still didn't want to be up front and admit this stuff, so therefore you're gonna get punished. And that's part of why they're getting punished, is that they haven't Daniel: Yeah. Adam: Mm-hmm. Jeeks: complied. So I d I have no sympathy for the club. I have some sympathy for the fans, but only the ones who are now turning around and going, We've been misled. We deserve like the fans deserve just as much retribution as other clubs in the league and you know, everyone else. Because if anything, they've been misled more Daniel: Yeah. Jeeks: than rival fans have been. Daniel: So that's kinda asked your initial reactions. I guess the big topic which is the the topic lesson of about the charge. What next and what this is kind of the topic of conversation, isn't it?

Because the reason this is coming up as a conversation is if all these are obviously now been charged, there's a route of appeal. I need to make that clear which by all cats I've been Supposedly that can add a couple of years onto this investigation. But again, supposedly we have to keep saying that because then there's a lot of legal legal stuff going on. Most lawyers that are reputable are saying that these are gonna stick even after an appeal. It's more just a delay tactic rather than they don't see you can't really undo a hundred and fifth well, 112 charges, wherever it is. Like even if they manage to appeal some of them, you're talking you've pretty much lost the gambit here. So then what happens next because where do you like we were talking pre podcast where do you draw the line because clubs are talking about going does this mean trophies get handed back does this mean points does this mean relegations does this mean fines does this mean transfer bans like what Adam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: what next like what realistically is the next steps for this or guess we can only do conjecture just now but the what or what would you see fit in as well what what is the punishment Jeeks: I mean to throw the book at them. Like Daniel: Which says what though? Jeeks: which is the absolute extreme for cheating clubs. And we've seen it o elsewhere, you know, the whole Italian situation, clubs were deliberately Daniel: And then Jeeks: cheating to win titles. I think I'm not saying give the titles to the second place teams. City just like null and void it for all I care. But you have to strip their titles, you have to kick them out of the Premier League. I'm not taking give enough of a a points disadvantage that they can't they can't stay up, they'll just get relegated anyway. Kick them out. If you don't follow the rules to this extent, you you should get kicked out. And it by all signs it seems like the EFL would join the Premier League in the same standing if that was to happen. So yeah, kick them out, strip their titles, massive punishments in terms of finances, transfer bans, give it give it all to them because it's it's it's disgraceful to give them any leniency for a hundred and fourteen charges where they haven't in any way cooperated, they've not tried to defend themselves fully, all they've done is try and put up screens to say, No, no, we didn't actually do this, we didn't do this, so for me, throw the book at them, give them whatever you can, we we can move on and just get back to the football. Adam: So we've just lost you. Daniel: He's just disappeared. I don't realize that well, is it throw the book at them? I realize he's gonna throw the book upself as well. Adam, Adam: He just wanted to make a dramatic exit. Daniel: yeah, I was gonna ask you as well what Jack Toll has taught to us about throw the book at them. He thinks it should be every measure. What what Adam: They... So. Daniel: would you see? I guess what what's fair and rational, but then also

what's a punishment and I guess also I wanna ask your opinion on this whole retrospect. Sort of action because I'll personally, and I think I was making my opinions clear pre-podcast, but let's say for the podcast, and like listener say, I have a problem with retrospective action, particularly with awards of titles and stuff that's going on. I think asteriskes could be something that could be done, but it's I don't know where you draw the line because if you start giving, say, like say they give Arsenal like the titles where you guys finish second, and all Chelsea haven't been good enough recently with these sort of things. Adam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Where do I do you draw the line like I was saying to you about you were joking about the Tony Pulless fan? Where do you draw the line about cup finals? Where do you draw the line about relegated teams that maybe some teams around them took points and other teams didn't? Yeah, so I I guess I'm just rambling, but where do you stand kind of with this? Adam: I'm with you in terms of the retrospective stuff that I I think that those games ultimately, yes you will be able to legally particularly make arguments about what happened on the pitch was impacted by the things that they were doing off of it. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Adam: But ultimately the players went out and won those games, the players went out and won those trophies. As Daniel: Yeah. Adam: an Arsenal fan, the... the two years that Arsenal finished second to Man City, I don't want those titles. Those titles wouldn't mean anything to me as an Arsenal fan. Daniel: No, that's yeah. Yeah yeah. Adam: They give them now 40 winners medals to players that some players that don't even play for Arsenal anymore. I'm not a fan of any of that. I don't think there's a need for it. This was a big debate in Scotland, and if you remember, the point that Rangers had their own financial issues about this thing, Daniel: Yeah, no, of course. Yeah. Adam: and most Exceltic players actually said they didn't want medals for trophies that Daniel: Mm-hmm. Adam: happened 12 years ago, because it means nothing at that point in time. Daniel: Okay. Adam: In terms of the retrospective stuff, don't really care. I don't think anything should change. Like you say, yeah, you've probably put an asterisk next to it. Like, if that feels like a level of action. But again, in a hundred years, who cares about an asterisk next to something? I don't think that actually means anything. In terms of the punishment side of it, I'm pretty aligned with Jack on this. We've seen, as you say, three clubs done with separate things. If you look at Everton in particular, Everton were done for two breaches of the PSR rules and that led to eight points of deduction. So, 114 breaches, I'm not saying you're going to get four points per breach, but you have to be looking in the region, 60 to 100 points of deduction. Just doing simple maths. I don't necessarily think that's where we end up and my concern is that the punishment that City get does not end up really being relative to what they've been done for. Daniel: Yeah, could my w Adam: Ehhm... Daniel: is what you're saying and that's what I kinda want you to allude to. Because there's so many charges, is it almost easier for them to like bulk them together and say, we'll just give you forty and we'll get along with it? And then the city have had their punishment, Adam: Mm-hmm. All right. Daniel: they might not get Champions League that season. But as you quite really pointed out, and if I'm an Everton fan particularly, I am sitting here with eagle eyes watching this, because if they had six charges would they've maybe still lost twenty points. That's when you're saying that it's like four points per sort of charge. Adam: Yeah, aye. And this is where you run into issues. And I feel the Premier League, like, the one thing I'll give the Premier the Premier League have always been adamant about how serious this case was. And I think the Premier League have done a lot of work to get to this point in time and there's still a lot of work to get to the end of this process. But the Premier League, to make their PSR rules seem in any way important, need this punishment to be extremely severe. Because it will... Ultimately, Chelsea punishment, Everton punishment, the Forest punishment, we're still seeing clubs take the mick out of these rules regardless. mean, Jack, not to go back to your club, but they just Daniel: yeah, at all, yeah. Adam: borrowed another 90 million quid, a deck and everything. None of the clubs really care about these things that far currently. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Adam: It's only the clubs at a middle level, your Brighton's, your Brentford, your Bournemouth, that have to balance the books and feel like they can't actually kick on that really struggle with these things. Daniel: Yeah. Well I told you both that I s I mean, I'm not gonna complain, but I think Chelsea were lenient. One of the rulings from the Chelsea case was that we didn't gain a sporting advantage and that is impossible. Like the agent fees, for example, the players that we got, like Eden Hazard and that in those periods of time and these agent fees that happened, you're telling me that that wasn't a factor in us signing some of Adam: Yeah. Daniel: these players over Like these like rivalries Adam: Yeah. Daniel: that we were hearing about at the time when as a child's fan thinking, we've convinced them 'cause we've just won the Champions Adam: Yeah. Daniel: League not probably because his agent got slid thirty million under the table where no one knew about it. so then so then Adam: Yes, and same beyond that. Daniel: I think that's what's frustrating. I'm going it's it's hard because then you see teams but I think the problem is only with the force relegate, I think it will most likely be a points deduction. The reason I say that is because you then are reliant we had it with Rangers, you then are reliant on other leagues taking on

your clubs. And the Premier League Adam: Well, this is the fun. Yeah. Daniel: and the EFL are two separate entities for people that don't know. And so then does that mean say you have to be accepted into the EFL? Like where do you draw the line? Whereas if it's a points deduction Adam: Yeah, that's the thing, it becomes a... Jeeks: Well, the EFL have said the EFL have well well not said publicly, but the signs are that EFL would stand with the Premier League. So if City were expelled from the Premier League, they would not be allowed into the EFL. So they would drop to the what fifth tier of English football. And look, at the end of the day you Daniel: But that's the point, yeah. So by definition it's more likely to be a points deduction. Adam: National Week. Jeeks: get what you get. And I would just like to say that I was disconnected at the end of my rant and I think someone's trying silence me. Adam: Hehehehehe Jeeks: And I don't appreciate it. but but Daniel: Yeah, we we made a w you watch it back on our recorded chat capture you'll check it when but we made we made a joke of it in your absence. We said that you were that passionate at the time. So yeah. It was actually the perfect caveat. We thought that you threw the book at yourself was kind of the joke we were making. So but yeah, so we kind of talked about that. I guess the final sort of thing to look at is what next do you see this being resolved soon? Because the problem we've got football fans and I'm sure a lot of the people have been watching this case for a while, which we all have, we've joked about it. I even joked with us privately, I think, one of our last handouts where I'm like, has this case been forgotten because no one talks about it anymore? Does this like 'cause they've dropped this international break, does this then see City appeal it and then does it just disappear into like the atmosphere for another like ten years? Jeeks: No, it drags on for another two, three, four years and eventually they will get punished. but they'll drag it out as much as possible. And I think personally for in my opinion, if they're gonna drag it out for another three, four years, anything that they win in the next three or four years, regardless of the previous titles, if they deliberately drag this out, anything they win for the next three or four years has to be null and void because they've delayed the punishment. They've given themselves a sporting advantage by not getting a points deduction at Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jeeks: this point in this season. So we'll see how it develops, but I think it's gonna drag out a lot longer. The thing is it it's such an egregious disregard to the rules that you can't allow it to be forgotten. And City fans for the last few Adam: Hmm. Daniel: No, that's Jeeks: years, every time it gets brought up, they say, Well, you know what? You bring it up but it's still going through the courts and innocent till found guilty and all this stuff. It's like well you have been

found guilty. If you want to drag it out further, for what will most likely maybe you'll get a couple of extra charges dropped. But you will be found guilty of probably at least a hundred. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jeeks: So why drag it out? Let's just get this over and done with. Take your punishment and move on. Daniel: I think I'm glad we're on agreement 'cause the one thing that I want to make is that the punishment has to be is there has to be a supporting aspect of it because if Adam: Yeah. Daniel: you go financial, the city guys can pay it. It doesn't really matter. They could literally Adam: Financial punishments and Daniel: yeah. Adam: obviously Dan, you know for experience transfer bans, they don't really mean anything. Transfer bans could be frustrating but they're not going to have a serious long-term impact on clubs and half the time the transfer bans have loopholes around them anyway that smart clubs would find. Daniel: Yeah, or if you'd have a transfer bank for City, they have enough players where then it just means it drives up the prices of their players anyway. So like you would just say, Well, if you want Ireland Holland, you pay seven hundred million pounds because we can't buy anyone back. Adam: Yeah, so the only realistic punishment and ultimately the precedent has been set that breaches should lead to points deductions. We've seen that with two clubs. As you say Dan, the only slight thing if you're a city point of view is you might use Chelsea as an example where that hasn't been the case. But again, Chelsea did contribute to that case. Daniel: Mm-hmm. But there's also another friend of the city fan with Chelsea Finn, which yeah, another thing which actually meant to bring up, but I think that is also key. Chelsea getting new owners was also a factor of that. It was the previous ownership, whereas City were complicit and it's the same owners now. So part of the thing the Premier League said in the report was that. It was hard to give the punishment because these owners came in and they self reported immediately. What else can you ask of new owners? Whereas these are no owners that actually did this. So you are punishing the guilty. Full stop. So by definition, Adam: Yeah. Daniel: there should be a bigger punishment anyway. even Adam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: if we had the same charges, which as you guys have pointed out at multiple times, say have hun over a hundred. This isn't even like we're tat for tat with us either. Adam: Yeah, it's, but as Jack says, I think the key thing is like, we need to speak about this now because this is news right now. But this will in a couple of weeks be something that we don't speak about for a while again, because there will not be an update to this again for a while. And we'll Daniel: So Adam: get an official ruling in the next few months potentially, Daniel: Yeah. Adam: but that appeal process, because it will be the exact same as Jack and you already said, the appeal process will be the exact same as cities handle the rest of this process. which just throw as much smoke and mirrors at this case as we can to try and found loopholes and force ways out of it because we know we're guilty. That's something that... They've never explicitly tried to argue innocence. They've tried to play a victim most of the time around the fact that it was a hack originally. Even then, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Adam: like the thing wasn't, we didn't do this, the thing was it was unfortunate we got hacked and as we said earlier, like there was still something to hack, was still evidence there to be found. Daniel: Yeah. Adam: But that process will, well ultimately we know that process won't be quick because this process wasn't quick. The interesting thing for City becomes beyond just the punishment they get from the Premier League directly, becomes that level of legal action they may face from other clubs. The only benefit for City is, despite not being a state-owned club supposedly, even though this case is going to have an impact on the United Kingdom's relationship with another country, that City's definitely not state-owned. is financially that won't necessarily affect them but that will become another limitation for City. You even look at the likes of Leicester, they reckon they're already looking at legal cases because they finished fifth one of years that City finished fourth under Pep and they argue that the missing out on Champions League money that year then impacted them and I think Leicester are trying to argue that somehow how they're now in League One but Russell Matten managing them. I don't think City can be blamed for all of that at this point in time but there's clubs that have been relegated, there's... Daniel: Ninety percent that's yeah. Adam: clubs that have missed out on league titles, there's clubs that have missed out on the FA Cup, like Stoke City as we said. The case at sale will be one thing, the cases it leads to will be a really interesting thing moving forward. Daniel: Yeah. And that's true. And I think because I need to keep my what I want to ask you is both before we wrap up though, what does this mean for setting? What I mean by that is if you're Erlen Howland, if you're one of the boys in the team, if you're Mariska, if you're are you looking at this and think, I kinda want to get out now, or you think we just played the next two, three, four years that you're sitting because nothing will come of it. Like Asking you hypothetically if you were in that position, do you think that would alter you? And I guess then the question furthermore, do you think it will alter the players? Because I feel the reason I'm asking is I feel personally I maybe wouldn't say it too out loud, but I mean you say to my agent or that being like, This is a ticking time bomb, maybe don't put my name out there, but if something comes up, let's see. Because it does feel like it could happen. Jeeks: Well, there was there's already been rumors in the summer and in the start of this season that Howland wants to move on at the end of the year. That he wants to move on to possibly a Real Madrid or a Barcelona or something like that. So I think the Howland one I think his agents have been very filled in on this and they're very aware of what's going on. So yeah, I think chances are there will be players who want to leave. Daniel: Yeah. And it does make sense with Adam: I think that... Daniel: the whole it does make sense. The reason I'm asking is as well, and again, purely conjecture, you just have to look for links. Just seems a bit on the nose that Gardula leaves, Rodri leaves, a lot of the stuff's going on. And then you've got Britain and Karanu leave city players. People say that's just a squad refresh. But it it d it does just feel a bit weirdly linked, right? Adam: Even down to, it didn't feel like the most out there with my Algeria appointments, it was someone that had been at the club and was aware of the club's issues and stuff as well. But I think, as Jack said, I don't think Alan Holland was ever going to spend the rest his career at Man City. The stories have always been there, say first went, about his desire to play for Real Madrid, for example. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Adam: But yeah, definitely I think accelerates plans for a lot of these players potentially. The problem does then become, like you say, this is four years down the line and somebody like a Phil Foden that's a homegrown player to a city, does mean for someone like him? It would be really interesting, it would be fair. We live in such a player power era of football and PR is such a big thing for all these players. Daniel: No good. Adam: To the point that they cover their mouth when they're speaking because they don't want to be seen to say anything, et cetera. So a smart football player in a PR era where they know that their reputation after football will matter. will be looking to their agent, I don't want to publicly say that don't want to be here but can you start putting the fuelers out because I want to in four years say well I got out because the new things weren't right etc. Daniel: Yeah. Adam: It'll be funny when we start to see that turn though like Rodrey yesterday before the England-Spain game Daniel: Well that's that, yeah. Adam: we went out on the pitch etc and whatever else in the club are still maintaining their innocence. It'll be funny when we start seeing these guys say like well you know I couldn't be held responsible for that etc. Yeah. Daniel: I couldn't say at the time, but this is why ABC. No, definitely. But that's a good place to wrap it the corner. I'm sure it's a topic that we will chat about more in the future, but we'll just wait and see how goes. What do you make of the charges? What do you think should happen? Let us know your take and have a brilliant week this season as well. And truly underway.