บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ #2547 - Daniel Everett

00:03:39.729 And he didn't mind that? 80 00:03:40.210 --> 00:03:43.430 No, that was— he didn't want me doing it in the house, which. 81 00:03:43.330 --> 00:03:46.740 I did, but— So your rebellion was to become an 82 00:03:46.789 --> 00:03:50.099 outstanding citizen and a Christian missionary? Right. 83 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:52.539 That was my greatest form of rebellion against the life 84 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:53.340 I had been leading. 85 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.120 Interesting. Yeah, that's what happens when parents push their kids 86 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:58.060 into a certain direction. 87 00:03:58.979 --> 00:03:59.400 Right, right. 88 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:04.060 Little people don't like being told what to do. Yeah. 89 00:04:04.099 --> 00:04:08.550 So you immediately, it seems like, go become a Christian. 90 00:04:08.830 --> 00:04:12.189 And then how long before you are actually doing missionary 91 00:04:12.229 --> 00:04:12.889 work in the jungle? 92 00:04:13.650 --> 00:04:15.210 Well, there's a lot of training you have to do. 93 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.189 So first I had to do four years of college, 94 00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:20.209 Bible and theology, and then I had to do some 95 00:04:20.230 --> 00:04:25.889 linguistics training. And then not a graduate degree or anything 96 00:04:25.930 --> 00:04:29.009 like that, just some linguistics training from the missionary organization 97 00:04:29.050 --> 00:04:32.170 because I wanted to be a Bible translator. And then 98 00:04:32.209 --> 00:04:34.889 we did jungle training in southern Mexico. So we went 99 00:04:34.930 --> 00:04:37.610 to the jungles of Chiapas and had to do survival 100 00:04:37.670 --> 00:04:38.790 training and all of this. 101 00:04:38.810 --> 00:04:40.389 Whoa. What did you have to do there? 102 00:04:41.379 --> 00:04:43.980 Well, there are several phases to it. The family goes 103 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.160 and the family's part of it. But the hardest thing 104 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:49.540 is to really see how much you've learned. They take 105 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:51.720 you on what's called survival hike and they leave you 106 00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:53.920 alone for about a week in the jungle. You're not 107 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.899 allowed to take any food or any supplies of any kind. 108 00:04:57.980 --> 00:04:58.500 For a week? 109 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:01.000 Yeah, for a week or more. You don't know. It's 110 00:05:01.050 --> 00:05:03.449 going to be at least a week. In my case, 111 00:05:03.569 --> 00:05:08.259 it was about 10 days. And you've got to set up. 112 00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:10.879 Your camp, how best you can figure out how to 113 00:05:10.899 --> 00:05:11.740 get a fire going. 114 00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:13.740 Do they teach you how to do all this stuff? 115 00:05:13.779 --> 00:05:15.339 They don't just like figure it out. 116 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:18.759 This is like the final exam. So you've had almost 117 00:05:18.819 --> 00:05:22.139

four months of training before they finally take you out 118 00:05:22.189 --> 00:05:22.870 on this survival. 119 00:05:22.889 --> 00:05:23.730 Do you have water? 120 00:05:25.569 --> 00:05:28.290 You have maybe a quart of water when you leave, 121 00:05:28.990 --> 00:05:30.290 but you're going to be out there for 10 days. 122 00:05:30.310 --> 00:05:32.089 So you've got to find water. So we learned which 123 00:05:32.170 --> 00:05:34.790 vines have water and how to cut the vines. We 124 00:05:34.829 --> 00:05:37.329 did have a machete. So I was able to jump 125 00:05:37.449 --> 00:05:39.959 up and cut a vine out. At the top first 126 00:05:40.379 --> 00:05:41.230 and then at the bottom. 127 00:05:41.550 --> 00:05:44.230 And no one's monitoring you? They're just leaving you out 128 00:05:44.259 --> 00:05:45.970 there and they're not making sure you're okay? 129 00:05:46.189 --> 00:05:48.129 No, they just come along when the time's up. And 130 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:49.250 if you're there, you're there. 131 00:05:49.649 --> 00:05:51.889 Oh, boy. And if you're not, you're dead? 132 00:05:52.550 --> 00:05:53.050 You could be. 133 00:05:53.870 --> 00:05:56.329 So that's insane. 134 00:05:56.610 --> 00:05:59.730 Yeah, well, this is what happens when you live by faith. 135 00:05:59.790 --> 00:06:03.699 You know, you're out there. And God's supposed to be 136 00:06:03.779 --> 00:06:06.920 supervising your training, but it's really rigorous training. So by 137 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.139 the time I actually got to the Amazon, which was 138 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:14.430 eight years after I converted, took that long, it felt 139 00:06:14.459 --> 00:06:17.050 like I was coming home. I wasn't surprised by things. 140 00:06:17.310 --> 00:06:19.410 Well, the training was good then. I mean, I would 141 00:06:19.449 --> 00:06:21.490 imagine if you really want someone to be able to 142 00:06:21.529 --> 00:06:24.009 survive alone in the jungle, best way to do it 143 00:06:24.050 --> 00:06:26.689 is to test them by making them survive alone in 144 00:06:26.730 --> 00:06:29.720 the jungle so that you get an actual hope. version 145 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:32.779 of the experience. It's not simulated. You actually are getting 146 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.110 water from vines. What were you eating? 147 00:06:36.310 --> 00:06:38.810 Well, I learned different kinds of plants that you could eat. 148 00:06:39.410 --> 00:06:42.970 And then I learned how to make with a stick, 149 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:47.129 you know, make a stick the size of a toothpick 150 00:06:47.170 --> 00:06:50.430 sharpened on both ends. And I did have some fishing line. 151 00:06:50.449 --> 00:06:53.480 I would attach that to that. And I was so 152 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.120 proud of myself because I brought up two fish that 153 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.800 were about three inches long And I ate those. And 154 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:02.600 most of the time I ate plants and went hungry. 155 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:08.120 So when I see the programs like Alone, that wouldn't 156 00:07:08.139 --> 00:07:10.379 bother me. That's the kind of stuff we had to do. 157 00:07:11.980 --> 00:07:13.420 They didn't even give you fish hooks? 158 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.180 No. You can't have that kind of stuff. You have 159 00:07:16.220 --> 00:07:17.660 to learn to cope on your own. You've got to 160 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:19.920 make your own. You've got to be able to recognize 161 00:07:19.939 --> 00:07:22.660 the plants, which ones are poisonous, which ones are not poisonous. 162 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:24.420 Did you try to make, like, a bow and arrow 163 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:24.800 or anything? 164 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:25.860 Yeah, yeah. 165 00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:26.899 You did? I did. 166 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:27.839 I made a bow and arrow. 167 00:07:28.189 --> 00:07:28.850 How did you do that? 168 00:07:30.170 --> 00:07:33.089 Well, I had a machete, and that's what I had. 169 00:07:33.529 --> 00:07:35.009 It's crazy they give you a machete. They won't give 170 00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:35.689 you fish hooks. 171 00:07:35.709 --> 00:07:36.649 Like, come on, guys. 172 00:07:36.769 --> 00:07:39.389 Yeah, yeah. Fish hooks are so much easier to carry. Right. 173 00:07:39.709 --> 00:07:42.360 But the machete you need for firewood. You need for 174 00:07:42.389 --> 00:07:45.860 lots of things. You know, when I got to the Amazon. 175 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:46.920 What? Do you have a lighter? 176 00:07:46.939 --> 00:07:47.970 No. No. 177 00:07:48.550 --> 00:07:49.329 How are you making fires? 178 00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:52.399 Well, I had just– they let me take just a 179 00:07:52.449 --> 00:07:53.060 few matches. 180 00:07:53.899 --> 00:07:54.920 Oh, Lord. 181 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.920 And so no lighter, but a few matches, which you 182 00:07:58.060 --> 00:08:01.620 kept in a 35-millimeter film cartridge. 183 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.250 People don't know about those things, those little containers. 184 00:08:04.490 --> 00:08:04.709 Yeah. 185 00:08:04.990 --> 00:08:07.089 How many matches did they give you for 10 days? 186 00:08:07.829 --> 00:08:11.160 Well, you had one of those little containers with about 10, 187 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:12.870 15 matches in it at the most. 188 00:08:12.889 --> 00:08:14.920 Oh, boy. So you've got to match a day. 189 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:16.920 You've got to keep your fire going all the time. 190 00:08:17.060 --> 00:08:19.060 You always have to keep that fire going. So before 191 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:22.360 you start it, you spend half the day just cutting firewood. 192 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:24.759 And I would imagine it's very wet. 193 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.660 It's all wet. So you've got to find something dry 194 00:08:28.939 --> 00:08:31.939 to get it going. And as they told us— You've 195 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:32.639 got to keep it going. 196 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:32.929 Yeah. 197 00:08:32.970

--> 00:08:35.570 They said once it's hot enough, it'll burn anything. But 198 00:08:35.950 --> 00:08:37.809 until it gets hot, you can't just throw that wet 199 00:08:37.850 --> 00:08:41.440 wood on there. It'll put it out. So— You know, 200 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:43.279 you have to spend a lot of time exploring, trying 201 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:46.460 to find dry, crackly wood and leaves and things and 202 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.320 get it going. And then slowly introduce the thinner pieces 203 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:51.830 of wet wood until finally you can throw on a 204 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:53.389 sopping log. 205 00:08:53.529 --> 00:08:55.669 So a big part of your day essentially is making 206 00:08:55.690 --> 00:08:56.850 sure that fire stays lit. 207 00:08:57.289 --> 00:08:57.529 Yeah. 208 00:08:57.769 --> 00:08:59.289 That's a big part of your day. And you can't 209 00:08:59.309 --> 00:09:00.789 get too far from it. No. 210 00:09:01.129 --> 00:09:03.149 You have to stay fairly close to it. And at 211 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:05.009 night you definitely want to keep it going. So I 212 00:09:05.029 --> 00:09:08.779 remember one night waking up and hearing heavy steps around 213 00:09:08.820 --> 00:09:09.820 my camp. 214 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:10.139 Oh, yeah. 215 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:14.480 And– I was up immediately blowing on that fire for 216 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:16.139 everything I was worth to get that thing up. 217 00:09:16.659 --> 00:09:18.679 Yeah. Was it Jaguars? 218 00:09:20.379 --> 00:09:22.799 I suspect that it could have been, although I didn't 219 00:09:22.870 --> 00:09:25.690 see it. I had my machete, which when I got 220 00:09:25.710 --> 00:09:28.929 to the Amazon and actually saw Jaguars, I realized that 221 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:31.450 would have been a pretty pathetic thing to try to 222 00:09:31.990 --> 00:09:34.929 go against a Jaguar with a machete. They would rip 223 00:09:34.950 --> 00:09:35.750 your head off before. 224 00:09:35.629 --> 00:09:37.470 You— Everybody likes to think they have a chance, though. 225 00:09:37.850 --> 00:09:40.679 Yeah, yeah, but— What I found out is jaguars, you know, 226 00:09:40.700 --> 00:09:43.419 they get up to 400 pounds. And they're the third 227 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:45.659 biggest cat in the world after the lion and the tiger. 228 00:09:46.259 --> 00:09:50.690 And they often hunt in pairs. And so you wouldn't 229 00:09:50.710 --> 00:09:53.990 have a chance against a jaguar unless you were one 230 00:09:54.009 --> 00:09:57.330 of the pitahas. I know that guys alone by themselves 231 00:09:57.370 --> 00:09:59.529 have killed jaguars. Really? Yeah. 232 00:09:59.809 --> 00:10:01.070 What are they using to kill a jaguar? 233 00:10:02.049 --> 00:10:03.860 Well, they're always with their bows and arrows. 234 00:10:06.139 --> 00:10:08.340 A bow and arrow range for a jaguar. That's crazy. 235 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:10.659 Well, you better have it ready because it sneaks up 236 00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:13.059 on you. There's another group that I worked with for 237 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.500 quite a while, several months, called the Bonowah, and they 238 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.490 use poisoned darts and poisoned arrows. So there's a story 239 00:10:20.509 --> 00:10:25.509 of this guy who went out hunting and he reached 240 00:10:25.570 --> 00:10:27.750 a clearing in the jungle and he saw a deer 241 00:10:27.809 --> 00:10:30.340 come out running straight for him. And at first he 242 00:10:30.379 --> 00:10:32.240 was happy and he was going to kill the deer. 243 00:10:32.269 --> 00:10:34.299 Then he realized deers don't just come running out of 244 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.919 the jungle towards people. And then right behind the deer 245 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.419 came a jaguar. And the jaguar saw him, the guy, 246 00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:43.500 and he was bigger than the deer. So the jaguar 247 00:10:43.539 --> 00:10:46.299 just took off straight for him and jumped up. And 248 00:10:46.460 --> 00:10:49.139 the guy got his bow, his blowgun. out in front 249 00:10:49.179 --> 00:10:51.840 of him. They're about seven or eight feet long, these 250 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:55.559 big blow guns. And they're very sturdy. And the jaguar, 251 00:10:56.220 --> 00:10:59.519 he holds it away. The jaguar's back legs are tearing 252 00:10:59.539 --> 00:11:02.669 the meat off of his legs. And the jaguar's head 253 00:11:02.710 --> 00:11:05.070 just keeps snapping at his face, trying to get his face. 254 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:08.629 And what saved his life was the jaguar jumped off 255 00:11:08.690 --> 00:11:10.309 to go around the back and try to get him 256 00:11:10.330 --> 00:11:12.809 from the back. But he had a poisoned arrow and 257 00:11:12.830 --> 00:11:15.149 he stabbed the jaguar with it. And that hurts. And 258 00:11:15.169 --> 00:11:17.009 the jaguar started to run off and then he shot 259 00:11:17.029 --> 00:11:22.460 it with a poisoned arrow. But he passed out, and 260 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:25.740 his family found him a couple of days later with 261 00:11:25.779 --> 00:11:30.779 his legs just infected and torn to pieces. But he survived. 262 00:11:33.659 --> 00:11:36.899 And so these Pidahad, would they go hunt the jaguars? 263 00:11:37.889 --> 00:11:40.870 If they saw that it was a danger, if a 264 00:11:40.929 --> 00:11:44.169 woman went out and a jaguar or a mountain lion 265 00:11:45.370 --> 00:11:47.490 scared her, the men would go out to kill it. 266 00:11:48.309 --> 00:11:49.340 So I've eaten jaguar. 267 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.139 What does it taste like? 268 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.879 Well, this one was sort of, this was a sick jaguar. 269 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.159 But it's stringy meat. I mean, it's very muscly meat. 270 00:11:59.200 --> 00:11:59.960 Is it a sick one? 271 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:04.090 Yeah, that's how they wound up killing it. I found 272 00:12:04.129 --> 00:12:05.950 out later. I

was really impressed, you know, they killed 273 00:12:05.990 --> 00:12:08.490 a jaguar. And they have killed many jaguars. But this 274 00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:10.289 one turned out to be a sick jaguar, which is 275 00:12:10.350 --> 00:12:11.730 why he attacked the woman. 276 00:12:12.429 --> 00:12:14.080 Like he was starving to death or something? 277 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:15.799 Yeah, he was starving. So the men killed it. 278 00:12:16.299 --> 00:12:16.669 And ate it. 279 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:18.919 But I did, my children were with me this whole time. 280 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.980 So I told my children, I said, just remember who's 281 00:12:22.059 --> 00:12:22.679 eating whom. 282 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:26.159 So do you remember what it tastes like? 283 00:12:27.370 --> 00:12:29.710 Well, it's a, it's a stringy meat. It's really hard 284 00:12:29.730 --> 00:12:31.529 to describe all the, all the tastes. 285 00:12:32.210 --> 00:12:33.450 Like very sinewy? 286 00:12:33.470 --> 00:12:33.789 It's tough. 287 00:12:33.929 --> 00:12:34.129 Yeah. 288 00:12:34.149 --> 00:12:39.230 Sinewy and very tough. And my general rule of thumb, 289 00:12:39.649 --> 00:12:41.960 I eat anything that they kill, but my general rule 290 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.279 of thumb is I usually have a bottle of Tabasco 291 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.519 sauce and If you put Tabasco sauce on it, it's okay. 292 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:51.299 And so these pitahas, am I saying it right? 293 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:52.700 Yeah, that's right. 294 00:12:53.539 --> 00:12:57.159 They don't preserve anything, right? They just kill things and 295 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:57.519 cook them. 296 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.480 Yeah, they don't, you know, many, many different groups smoke 297 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:04.059 the meat or salt the meat if they have salt 298 00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:08.240 or dry it. And the pitahas know how to do that. 299 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:09.639 I don't know where they learn how to do it 300 00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:11.879 because they never do it except if they want to 301 00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:14.830 trade the meat with Brazilian boats who come up. But 302 00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:17.379 among themselves, they don't preserve any meat. You know, I 303 00:13:17.389 --> 00:13:20.240 was talking to a guy one time and, you know, 304 00:13:20.259 --> 00:13:22.320 why don't you preserve your meat? And he says, oh, 305 00:13:22.379 --> 00:13:25.720 I preserve it in the belly of my brother. So 306 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.220 they share it. And if I get meat, I give 307 00:13:28.259 --> 00:13:29.980 you some. And if you get meat, you give me some. 308 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:31.399 So why would I? Right. 309 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:34.090 So there's no need to store. And also, I guess 310 00:13:34.169 --> 00:13:37.190 it's very abundant. There's a lot of life where they live, 311 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:39.049 like in terms of fish and game. 312 00:13:39.690 --> 00:13:42.049 There have been. Yeah. I mean, they live on this river, 313 00:13:42.110 --> 00:13:46.039 the Micey River. And they're the only humans that live 314 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.379 along the river for almost 300 miles of the curvy river. 315 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.279 And it's a relatively large river by U.S. standards. In Brazil, 316 00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:56.730 it doesn't even make many of the maps. But it's 317 00:13:56.750 --> 00:14:00.269 a couple of hundred yards across. And in the rainy season, 318 00:14:00.309 --> 00:14:04.450 it can be as much as 75 feet deep, 100 319 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:08.210 feet deep. So there's plenty of fish for them. In 320 00:14:08.269 --> 00:14:12.049 recent years, that's changed because the Brazilian... The government has 321 00:14:12.110 --> 00:14:16.309 allowed the construction of dams across various rivers. Not their river, 322 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:19.490 but they affect the water level so much that it's 323 00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:21.549 taken all the fish, most of the fish out of 324 00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:24.580 their river. So now they're starving. And this has led 325 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.799 to conflict with Brazilians who live not too far away. 326 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.679 And they've killed a few people stealing food from their 327 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.960 farms and things. Oh, man. 328 00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:38.720 Can you imagine? You just have this... kind of harmonious 329 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.820 existence with nature and someone just decides to make a dam. 330 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.320 Like you've got it so dialed in that you don't 331 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.100 need to preserve your food. Right. Because everyone's just like 332 00:14:47.139 --> 00:14:50.720 happy and eating fish right out of the river. Right. 333 00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:55.080 And, you know, that's, they don't know where the dam is. 334 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:57.470 They've never seen the dam. I told them that they 335 00:14:57.490 --> 00:15:00.570 built something that crosses the river like a wall. And 336 00:15:01.590 --> 00:15:03.789 they say, why do they do that? And I said, well, 337 00:15:03.809 --> 00:15:07.240 they want electricity, which they barely understand. They've seen I 338 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.919 have a generator. I never had one for the first 339 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.980 20 years I was working with them, but I eventually 340 00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:15.159 got a generator and they could see what electricity was. 341 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.690 And I said, so that's where they get the lights. 342 00:15:19.129 --> 00:15:22.649 But they don't understand it. And it's for the first 343 00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:24.750 time in their history, and they've been living there as 344 00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:28.070 far as I can tell for almost 300 years on 345 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.700 this one river. For the first time in their history, 346 00:15:31.759 -->

00:15:36.460 they can't be self-sufficient in protein. 347 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:40.870 That's crazy. And how long ago did they build this dam? 348 00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:45.850 I think it was about 10 years ago. But they didn't, 349 00:15:46.669 --> 00:15:50.809 when it first went into operation, then it flooded the entire, 350 00:15:51.590 --> 00:15:54.289 lots of farmland, lots of settlements and things up on 351 00:15:54.309 --> 00:15:57.450 the Madeira. But what was shocking was that way down 352 00:15:57.509 --> 00:16:01.529 river from the dam, it affected the water level so 353 00:16:01.590 --> 00:16:06.379 much that when their river, the Maisee, goes to its 354 00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:12.299 lowest point, in the dry season, there's still only a 355 00:16:12.340 --> 00:16:15.100 few places where you can see the bottom of the river. 356 00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:17.179 Most of the places, even when it's at its lowest, 357 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:20.100 you can't see the bottom of the river. But in 358 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:21.960 the last couple of years, it's gotten so low you 359 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:22.759 can walk across. 360 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:24.519 Oh, wow. 361 00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:25.820 And the fish don't stay there. 362 00:16:28.100 --> 00:16:29.159 So what are these people eating? 363 00:16:30.220 --> 00:16:33.279 Well, they go hunting, which they don't like to do. 364 00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:35.830 But of course, when the fish are gone and when 365 00:16:35.870 --> 00:16:38.620 the river's gone, You lose a lot of the game 366 00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:40.639 from the jungle. So they have to go, instead of 367 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:43.539 going a mile into the jungle, they have to go 368 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:46.700 many miles into the jungle. And they're still not successful. 369 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.659 So it's busting up communities. Some people are moving out 370 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.080 of their normal area to other areas to try to, 371 00:16:54.340 --> 00:16:56.820 you know, back on bigger rivers. But then that means 372 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.659 they're surrounded by Brazilians and they're no longer leading the 373 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:01.860 life that they used to lead. 374 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.299 So... When they move into these civilization areas, are they 375 00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:11.900 integrating or are they trying to like stay as a 376 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:15.789 tribe removed from urban society? Like how are they doing it? 377 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:20.509 Well, up until about five years ago, they would never 378 00:17:20.549 --> 00:17:24.269 have thought about integrating. They would live in like ghettos. 379 00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:27.349 If they were out near some town, they would live 380 00:17:27.390 --> 00:17:29.569 in the jungle away from the town because that whole 381 00:17:29.609 --> 00:17:32.140 part of Brazil is covered in jungle. Even the cities 382 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:33.279 are bordered by jungle. 383 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:33.680 Right. 384 00:17:34.210 --> 00:17:38.230 But nowadays, because there's no food anywhere, they're trying to 385 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:44.240 integrate more. They're trying to learn Portuguese. And it's a 386 00:17:44.259 --> 00:17:47.740 very unfortunate situation for them right now. 387 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.329 God, it's such a bummer. That sucks so hard. So 388 00:17:52.589 --> 00:17:58.349 when you first got there, your aim was to try 389 00:17:58.369 --> 00:17:59.609 to convert them to Christianity. 390 00:17:59.849 --> 00:18:02.410 That's right. I went there to translate the Bible and 391 00:18:02.430 --> 00:18:04.450 to plant a church and get everybody believing. 392 00:18:04.529 --> 00:18:06.950 And why Pitahah? Why did you go to those people? 393 00:18:07.430 --> 00:18:10.490 Well, we were in our training, and the missionary organization, 394 00:18:10.549 --> 00:18:14.730 the Wycliffe Bible Translators, offered us three areas. They said, 395 00:18:14.779 --> 00:18:16.450 you can go to New Guinea. We need people in 396 00:18:16.490 --> 00:18:19.839 New Guinea. You can go to Mexico, or you can 397 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.660 go to Brazil. And in Brazil, there's this tribe called 398 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.950 the Pitahah. that we've had two teams assigned to, and 399 00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:28.190 nobody's been able to figure out the language because it's 400 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:31.849 not related to any other known living language. And so 401 00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:33.650 they said, if you're up for that challenge, and we 402 00:18:33.690 --> 00:18:36.549 know you did well in linguistics, we'd be happy to 403 00:18:36.589 --> 00:18:39.849 have you take that group. So I thought, well, sure, 404 00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:41.470 I'm up for a challenge. So we took that. 405 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:42.980 And so this was 1977? 406 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:43.009 1977. 407 00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:45.079 We were assigned there in 76, and I made my 408 00:18:45.470 --> 00:18:53.789 first trip in in December of 1977. And so how 409 00:18:53.829 --> 00:18:58.309 much of the language did you know before you got there? Nothing. Nothing? 410 00:18:58.450 --> 00:18:59.009 No. 411 00:18:59.089 --> 00:19:02.029 What do we know in terms of like before you 412 00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:05.450 got there? Was it recorded? 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Portuguese explorers made contact and they didn't 428 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.589 take lists of words They they wrote a few descriptive 429 00:20:15.609 --> 00:20:19.190 things about the language and about the people And those 430 00:20:19.230 --> 00:20:23.970 things still fit them today and then in 1821 a 431 00:20:24.289 --> 00:20:26.529 German explorer went there and he took a long list 432 00:20:26.569 --> 00:20:29.730 of words which was amazing because he didn't have linguistics 433 00:20:29.789 --> 00:20:34.700 or anything like that and His list of words is 434 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:39.819 pretty good and then in 1920 a Another German who 435 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:45.470 naturalized Brazilian, the founder of Brazilian anthropology, went there and 436 00:20:45.529 --> 00:20:48.890 took a much larger word list, and that one is 437 00:20:49.029 --> 00:20:51.410 very good. And so I had those little word lists. 438 00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:53.920 They're not much, and there's no how does the grammar 439 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.660 work or anything like that. It's just lists of words. 440 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.519 So I had looked at those, but it's a tone language, 441 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.160 and so they hadn't written the tone, so I had 442 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.319 no idea how to pronounce the words. To give you 443 00:21:06.339 --> 00:21:10.160 an example of what a tone language is, so if 444 00:21:10.220 --> 00:21:13.700 I want to say friend, I say magiai. And if 445 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:17.529 I want to say enemy, it's magiai. 446 00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:19.390 What's the difference? 447 00:21:19.549 --> 00:21:21.910 So if I whistle it, friend is whoop, whoop, whoop. 448 00:21:22.829 --> 00:21:26.349 And if I whistle enemy, it's whoop, whoop, whoop. If 449 00:21:26.390 --> 00:21:29.240 you can't hear the tones, you don't know what's going on. 450 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:35.329 So the word for me is chie. And the word 451 00:21:35.349 --> 00:21:39.190 for shit is che. So, you know, you can be 452 00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:42.230 talking about yourself and everybody starts laughing because you've called 453 00:21:42.250 --> 00:21:43.950 yourself shit. 454 00:21:44.869 --> 00:21:45.970 Because you have the wrong tone. 455 00:21:46.150 --> 00:21:48.250 Because you have the wrong tone. So, you know, there 456 00:21:48.269 --> 00:21:51.289 are a lot of tone languages in the world, Mandarin, tonal, Korean, 457 00:21:51.690 --> 00:21:54.690 somewhat tonal, and many languages of Africa are tonal. But 458 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.529 for those of us who speak European languages, this is 459 00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:01.210 just really weird and it's hard to hear. 460 00:22:01.230 --> 00:22:03.890 A complete mind shift. Yeah. 461 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:07.410 So you've got to be able to pay attention to 462 00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:11.940 those tones. But the first thing you have to do 463 00:22:12.019 --> 00:22:14.279 is start just collecting words. So I would point at 464 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.119 things my first day, my first hour. I was pointing 465 00:22:17.180 --> 00:22:19.099 at things and writing down what they said, and that 466 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:22.089 was the basic linguistics I had had, phonetics, how to 467 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:24.849 write down sounds of the world's languages. 468 00:22:25.809 --> 00:22:29.390 And when you got there, so on day one, how 469 00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:32.039 do you make a connection? Do you just show up? Hey, 470 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:34.619 brought you the Bible. Everyone have a seat. How do 471 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:35.240 you do this? 472 00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:39.059 Well, I got off and I started handing candy to 473 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:39.480 the kids. 474 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:40.599 Good move. 475 00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:45.569 That works. And the people were very curious because I'm 476 00:22:45.609 --> 00:22:48.970 this white guy with red hair. At that time, I 477 00:22:49.009 --> 00:22:51.869 had bright red hair and they found me curious to 478 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:55.150 look at. And so they came around. They could tell, 479 00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:57.539 you know, at least I think they thought they could 480 00:22:57.579 --> 00:23:00.660 tell that I was no danger to them. They know 481 00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:02.869 how to deal with that very quickly if they sense danger. 482 00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:06.430 So then I would just start pointing at things. I 483 00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:10.970 had my pen and paper, and I would get a stick, 484 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:14.769 and I would say in English, you know, stick. And 485 00:23:14.789 --> 00:23:16.730 they know that I'm trying to communicate something, so they 486 00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:20.509 would say back, eh. And I thought, it probably means stick. 487 00:23:20.710 --> 00:23:22.170 And I would write that down. And then I would 488 00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:24.690 take the stick and drop it. And they would say, eh, 489 00:23:24.829 --> 00:23:28.059 he meke kaube. And that means stick fell to the ground. 490 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:30.940 And that's what I thought it meant. So that's how

491 00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:31.339 I started. 492 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.480 That's what you thought it meant. What is the reaction 493 00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:38.839 to this person coming in and demanding that they teach 494 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:39.680 the language? 495 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:42.140 Well, I didn't demand. 496 00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:45.619 Well, you know, you have a requirement. You can't communicate, 497 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.140 but you're there. So they're kind enough to welcome you. Yes. 498 00:23:49.579 --> 00:23:52.180 Are you in the actual camp with all these people? 499 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:53.819 Yeah, I'm in the middle of their village. The plane 500 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:56.119 let me off on, you know, landed on the river. 501 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:57.019 I got out. 502 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.109 You don't even ask? You just, like... wander into their camp? 503 00:24:00.210 --> 00:24:01.789 There's no way to contact them ahead of time. 504 00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:02.890 This is crazy. 505 00:24:03.049 --> 00:24:03.250 Yeah. 506 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:05.130 And you're just assuming they're not going to kill you. 507 00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:05.710 Is this you? 508 00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:08.269 This is the Pitaha. This is a Pitaha village. 509 00:24:08.289 --> 00:24:10.150 Yep. And so this is what it looked like when 510 00:24:10.190 --> 00:24:13.019 you showed up. You're like, hi, what's a stick? Yeah. Yeah. 511 00:24:13.059 --> 00:24:15.660 You land, you land on the river and, and you 512 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.440 get there and that is, uh, that's the Pitaha. 513 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:19.000 Wow. 514 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:25.579 And, um, wow. So they're very friendly and they start talking. Um, But, 515 00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:27.079 of course, I don't know what they say. They just 516 00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:27.859 see me as. 517 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:30.160 A very— Guy's got a Ferrari t-shirt on. What's up? 518 00:24:30.619 --> 00:24:35.619 Yeah, they— riverboats go in and give clothes. If a riverboat 519 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.660 hasn't been there in a long time, they'll all be naked. 520 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:44.769 Oh, wow. So— And so, like, day one, they just 521 00:24:45.529 --> 00:24:49.109 accept the fact that this redheaded dude just showed up 522 00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:50.170 and is hanging out with us now? 523 00:24:50.990 --> 00:24:52.650 Yeah, there were a couple of things that counted in 524 00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:55.779 my favor. I was all by myself, and so— Giving 525 00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:00.000 out candy was a big factor. They like to chew tobacco, 526 00:25:00.940 --> 00:25:03.019 and I had been told this by somebody who had 527 00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:05.920 been there. So I took in a big, long horn 528 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.529 of tobacco. I don't know if it was a really 529 00:25:07.569 --> 00:25:09.609 old-fashioned way to— A horn? Yes. 530 00:25:09.650 --> 00:25:10.869

Like an animal horn? 531 00:25:11.170 --> 00:25:14.910 No, it looks like an animal horn, but it's probably 532 00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:18.430 8 feet, 9 feet long, just rolled up tight tobacco 533 00:25:18.490 --> 00:25:22.109 wrapped in latex. Really? Yeah, and you just cut it 534 00:25:22.210 --> 00:25:23.980 off for them, and they chew it, and they like it. 535 00:25:24.049 --> 00:25:28.799 So— I would, you know, the ones who would help me, 536 00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:32.240 I would give them a little bit of tobacco or candy. 537 00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:37.940 And I also brought canned food for me. And I 538 00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:40.700 would trade that to them for fish and other things 539 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:42.900 that they got. And they liked that. 540 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:44.539 How long did you stay initially? 541 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:47.759 The first time was just to see what it was 542 00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:50.339 like before I brought my family. So I stayed 10 days. 543 00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:53.059 And then I came back with my family and we 544 00:25:53.140 --> 00:25:55.619 stayed a year at that time. We just stayed there 545 00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:56.119 the whole year. 546 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.720 When you say family, so your wife and how many kids? 547 00:25:59.900 --> 00:26:00.819 Three kids. There they are. 548 00:26:00.859 --> 00:26:02.200 How old were the kids when you got there? 549 00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:06.079 Well, my oldest daughter, who there was about 12, was nine, 550 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:09.440 and the middle daughter was six, and then my son 551 00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:14.410 was three years old. So this is around that time. 552 00:26:16.109 --> 00:26:19.269 And so my kids grew up among the Pitahon. Both 553 00:26:19.349 --> 00:26:21.990 my older daughters learned to speak the language fairly quickly. 554 00:26:22.430 --> 00:26:27.420 Wow, that's a risky move. You brought your little kids 555 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:31.279 to the jungle. What is that decision like? Was that 556 00:26:31.299 --> 00:26:32.140 a difficult decision? 557 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.839 Well, today it would be, but I was a Christian 558 00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.480 and I believed in miracles and I believed God would 559 00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:40.190 take care of us. And so I went there and 560 00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:42.549 figured he was in charge. He would take care of us. 561 00:26:42.589 --> 00:26:47.869 So my son got meningitis. My two daughters got malaria. 562 00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:52.009 I got malaria. In fact, after a few years, I 563 00:26:52.049 --> 00:26:54.720 went to San Diego and I I came down with 564 00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:59.670 malaria in University Hospital San Diego. They were thrilled because 565 00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:01.509 I was the only person they'd ever seen with all 566 00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:04.670 three strains of South American malaria at the same time. 567 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:09.529 Did you have

a relapse of malaria? Because I have 568 00:27:09.569 --> 00:27:13.009 a friend who got malaria in the Congo, and it 569 00:27:13.069 --> 00:27:13.759 came back. 570 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:17.000 It can come back, and I've had relapses, but it's 571 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.339 been a long time now that I haven't had relapses. 572 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.740 I've taken so much medicine that supposedly— It won't come 573 00:27:23.779 --> 00:27:25.920 back anymore. But I can never give blood because it's 574 00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:26.799 always in my blood. 575 00:27:27.579 --> 00:27:29.740 What do they give you? Like what medicine they give you? 576 00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:35.920 Well, Daraprim, Primaquin, straight quinine. When my wife almost died, 577 00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:42.700 she weighed 115 pounds. And then she got malaria and 578 00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:46.980 almost died. She got down to 76 pounds. And the 579 00:27:47.019 --> 00:27:48.880 doctor told me she's going to die tonight. We don't 580 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:50.079 have any way to keep her alive. 581 00:27:50.099 --> 00:27:50.839 Oh, my God. Yeah. 582 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.599 They put her on blood transfusions because you lose a 583 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:57.720 lot of blood. It kills the blood cells. And they 584 00:27:57.740 --> 00:28:01.359 put her on blood transfusions and also straight quinine, which 585 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:05.039 caused her to be in agony for several days of 586 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:09.359 just constant retching. And quinine is a really bad experience. 587 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:11.349 But at the end of it, she pulled through. 588 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:12.069 She pulled through. 589 00:28:12.089 --> 00:28:13.049 Oh, my God. 590 00:28:13.069 --> 00:28:15.230 Yeah, yeah. We all pulled through. 591 00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:18.400 You had to be like questioning your decisions. I mean, 592 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:22.019 this has to be a trialing, you know, very difficult 593 00:28:22.660 --> 00:28:25.160 time because you chose to be there. 594 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.650 Yeah. And so we were leaving the village to find 595 00:28:29.690 --> 00:28:32.650 help because my wife and daughter were dying of malaria 596 00:28:32.769 --> 00:28:34.809 at this time where she got down to 76 pounds. 597 00:28:34.829 --> 00:28:37.289 And my daughter lost a lot of weight, too. She 598 00:28:37.309 --> 00:28:42.240 was just skin and bones. And I'm getting my boat 599 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:43.799 out of there. And I had never been out by boat. 600 00:28:43.819 --> 00:28:45.750 In fact, I didn't have a boat. We were I 601 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:47.230 had no idea how to get out of there. So 602 00:28:47.250 --> 00:28:50.329 this Catholic priest came up to see what the Protestant 603 00:28:50.369 --> 00:28:53.470 missionaries were doing. And I said, can I borrow your boat? 604 00:28:53.569 --> 00:28:54.880 I got to get my family out of here. He 605 00:28:54.910 --> 00:28:58.640 had this very narrow aluminum canoe with a six horsepower Johnson. 606 00:28:59.380 --> 00:29:01.920 And I got my whole family in there and he 607 00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:04.319 just stayed there in the jungle and let my family 608 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:08.210 take off in his boat. And I didn't know where 609 00:29:08.269 --> 00:29:09.769 we were, but I was thinking, you know, I've read 610 00:29:09.789 --> 00:29:12.710 all these books about missionaries and now I'm having a 611 00:29:12.750 --> 00:29:17.579 missionary experience, but it wasn't fun. It was really... That 612 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.339 sounds horrific. It was a horrific experience, and I just 613 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:21.480 didn't know what was going to happen. 614 00:29:23.059 --> 00:29:26.589 So your goal was to convert these people, and how 615 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.569 long were you there for? 616 00:29:29.150 --> 00:29:31.769 Well, I was there... In 1980, I spent the whole 617 00:29:31.789 --> 00:29:34.230 year there. In all the other years, from 1977 to 2013, 618 00:29:34.210 --> 00:29:40.720 I was there for three to six months every year 619 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:45.960 so i was there a lot and um got sick 620 00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:48.460 every time i went i had typhoid fever and all 621 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.410 this stuff but um uh attacked by snakes and stuff 622 00:29:53.430 --> 00:29:59.829 like that but um It was just a mind-altering experience. 623 00:29:59.950 --> 00:30:04.450 Things didn't go the way I thought, and the people 624 00:30:04.509 --> 00:30:08.619 started questioning me. They started asking me about, why do 625 00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:10.859 you believe in this Jesus you keep telling us about? 626 00:30:10.900 --> 00:30:11.539 What's he like? 627 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:17.059 And you're doing this also, you're translating these concepts from 628 00:30:17.259 --> 00:30:18.500 English to Pidaha. 629 00:30:18.859 --> 00:30:22.460 From Greek to Pidaha. Going from the Greek New Testament, 630 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:24.569 because I was translating the New Testament, so going from 631 00:30:24.619 --> 00:30:29.019 Greek to Pitahum, but I'm referencing English and Portuguese at 632 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:29.720 the same time. 633 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.500 Oh my goodness. 634 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:31.640 I'm staying in there. 635 00:30:31.819 --> 00:30:35.200 And you expect these people to understand what you're saying. Yeah. 636 00:30:35.259 --> 00:30:36.819 So, you know, if you're in the middle of the 637 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.180 jungle and Jesus does something out in a desert, how 638 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:42.220 do you describe desert? 639 00:30:42.589 --> 00:30:46.430 Isn't their language a completely different language than ours? Like 640 00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:50.150 in terms of like, they have no words for color. Right. 641 00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:51.470 They have no words for direction. 642 00:30:51.490 -->

00:30:56.539 They And this all takes time to find out because 643 00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:58.859 when I went there, I thought everybody had words for colors. 644 00:30:58.940 --> 00:31:02.579 Everybody had words for numbers. Everybody had a concept of God. Right. 645 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:05.180 They don't have words for numbers. That's so crazy. 646 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:05.819 Yeah, they don't have. 647 00:31:06.339 --> 00:31:07.299 Do they have numbers? 648 00:31:07.740 --> 00:31:08.859 No, no numbers. 649 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:12.980 So how many fish did you catch today, Mike? A lot. 650 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:13.720 That's it. 651 00:31:14.069 --> 00:31:14.349 That's it. 652 00:31:14.349 --> 00:31:15.230 A lot or a little. 653 00:31:15.309 --> 00:31:15.970 A lot or a little. 654 00:31:17.109 --> 00:31:17.769 Or a good amount. 655 00:31:18.029 --> 00:31:23.069 Yeah, yeah. So in fact, that claim was really controversial. 656 00:31:23.089 --> 00:31:27.380 I've had psycholinguists and cognitive scientists come down with me 657 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:28.400 to do experiments. 658 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.240 Didn't you get into it with Chomsky about that? 659 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.440 Well, I got into it with Chomsky about their grammar. 660 00:31:35.059 --> 00:31:36.220 Yes. Oh, that's right. 661 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:39.849 Chomsky made this claim. I've gotten other people. There have 662 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.490 been people who find every claim controversial. So there's some 663 00:31:42.529 --> 00:31:44.890 people can't believe they don't have numbers. Some people who 664 00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:47.390 don't believe they don't have a concept of God. Other 665 00:31:47.430 --> 00:31:49.769 people who believe they don't, who don't believe they don't 666 00:31:49.809 --> 00:31:55.130 have colors. Um, but, um, Chomsky claimed that all languages 667 00:31:55.210 --> 00:32:00.369 are built on a common property called recursion. And recursion 668 00:32:00.450 --> 00:32:03.589 is this, English has it all over the place. So 669 00:32:03.950 --> 00:32:08.269 it's the ability to put one unit inside another unit 670 00:32:08.349 --> 00:32:10.670 of the same type. So take a noun. If I 671 00:32:10.710 --> 00:32:14.599 take the noun truck and the noun driver and I 672 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.380 put them together, I can form a third word, truck driver. 673 00:32:18.099 --> 00:32:20.759 And so that's recursion. I put one noun inside another 674 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:22.859 and I get a third noun. Or with a sentence, 675 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.289 I can say John spoke. There's no recursion there. I 676 00:32:26.309 --> 00:32:29.910 can say John said that Bill spoke. And now that's 677 00:32:29.930 --> 00:32:34.589 got recursion because Bill spoke is a sentence inside John 678 00:32:34.650 --> 00:32:39.359 said that. And so Chomsky claimed, and in my opinion, 679 00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:42.279 without doing a lot of homework on this, I mean,

680 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:45.240 he just was basing it on languages that he happened 681 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.509 to know, which aren't many, that all languages were built 682 00:32:49.589 --> 00:32:51.940 on this. It made sense. And he had a principles 683 00:32:52.009 --> 00:32:54.769 built into his theory that required this. So when I 684 00:32:54.789 --> 00:32:57.869 came along and said they don't have it, and now 685 00:32:57.890 --> 00:33:00.240 I know there are other languages that don't have it, 686 00:33:02.029 --> 00:33:06.029 this was like saying you're wrong. And for me, a 687 00:33:06.750 --> 00:33:10.690 relative nobody, to tell the most famous linguist in history, 688 00:33:11.069 --> 00:33:13.589 somebody that Chomsky was called by the New York Times 689 00:33:13.609 --> 00:33:18.089 the most important intellectual alive, to tell him that he's wrong, 690 00:33:19.710 --> 00:33:25.349 a lot of people found that very Weird, you know, unbelievable. Yeah, problematic. 691 00:33:25.390 --> 00:33:28.710 But facts are facts. Yeah. I mean, it should be 692 00:33:28.750 --> 00:33:31.990 exciting for a linguist to look at something that violates 693 00:33:32.089 --> 00:33:33.710 all the laws of other known languages. 694 00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:37.769 It was exciting for some linguists and really off pissing 695 00:33:37.849 --> 00:33:39.019 for a lot of other linguists. 696 00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:42.180 Isn't that gross? That's so gross. Yeah. That is one 697 00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:46.480 of the grossest things about intellectuals, this gatekeeping of information 698 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:49.119 and this appeal to authority that they're the only person 699 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.779 who could possibly know. Especially when you're talking about languages, 700 00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:54.880 like how many languages are there? 701 00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:57.900 There are about 8,000 separate languages in the world. 702 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:02.579 Okay. How the fuck could you know all the rules 703 00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.359 to 8,000 languages? 704 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.049 We don't have data on more than about 1,200 or so. 705 00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:10.489 Well, isn't there also an issue with the Aboriginal tribes 706 00:34:10.869 --> 00:34:15.429 of Australia? My good friend, Adam Greentree, he's from Australia 707 00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:18.010 and he was running a mine there for a while 708 00:34:18.170 --> 00:34:21.320 and worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and really 709 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:25.510 learned a lot about their cultures and they're called mobs, 710 00:34:25.809 --> 00:34:28.969 like their tribe, they call it a mob. And there 711 00:34:29.010 --> 00:34:32.010 could be a mob that's just like 30 kilometers over 712 00:34:32.090 --> 00:34:34.550 that way. They have no idea what they're saying. They 713 00:34:34.630 --> 00:34:36.690 don't know the language and it's not written anywhere. And 714 00:34:36.730 --> 00:34:39.630 there's hundreds of these. They're all over the place. Right. 715 00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:42.320 And the bit of field work that has been done, 716 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.659 there are some really good Australian linguists trying to figure 717 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:47.159 out these things, but the field work that has been 718 00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:50.380 done has found properties in that aren't like anything else 719 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:55.199 we know about. So languages can vary so much that 720 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:59.630 it's really premature, in my opinion, to be writing laws 721 00:34:59.869 --> 00:35:03.909 that languages are supposed to follow, all 8,000 of these languages. 722 00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:06.329 Well, all you'd have to do is say, as far 723 00:35:06.469 --> 00:35:09.789 as we've observed, and then you're okay. But as soon 724 00:35:09.829 --> 00:35:12.199 as you say it has to have this, and if 725 00:35:12.219 --> 00:35:15.130 someone says actually a language that doesn't have this, And 726 00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:18.110 then there's a controversy. You're a bad guy for pointing 727 00:35:18.139 --> 00:35:18.639 this out. 728 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:24.139 You're a heretic. I had one of Chomsky's followers who 729 00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:27.559 was Brazilian write to the Brazilian Indian Agency, which is 730 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.300 where I get my authorization to visit these tribes, and say, 731 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.280 this Dan Everett guy, he's a racist. That's what they 732 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:35.719 always say. 733 00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:37.480 Yeah. Isn't that the fun one? 734 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:38.420 Yeah. 735 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:40.260 The moment they want to get rid of you, you're 736 00:35:40.300 --> 00:35:41.099 a racist. Yeah. 737 00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:43.239 Well, she was silly because she said he's trying to 738 00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:46.360 reduce the pitahas to primates. And I said, well, in fact, 739 00:35:46.429 --> 00:35:47.639 I am because we're all primates. 740 00:35:48.090 --> 00:35:48.650 I'm a primate. 741 00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:52.150 You're a primate. But it's the thing. If Chomsky says 742 00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:55.909 that all languages have X and I say here's a 743 00:35:55.949 --> 00:35:58.869 language that doesn't have X, then either A, Chomsky's wrong 744 00:35:59.309 --> 00:36:01.630 or B, these aren't humans. And so the only person 745 00:36:01.650 --> 00:36:04.150 who would claim they're not humans is a racist. 746 00:36:04.690 --> 00:36:07.670 That's such a crazy way to put it. Yeah. It's 747 00:36:07.710 --> 00:36:09.510 so stupid. Yeah. God. 748 00:36:09.530 --> 00:36:11.590 But this is typical in science. As I got more 749 00:36:11.610 --> 00:36:14.730 and more into science, it's very unfortunate. 750 00:36:14.809 --> 00:36:18.289 It's men. It's men and their egos. That's what it is. 751 00:36:18.530 --> 00:36:21.949 And I'm sure women as well,

but primarily men. 752 00:36:22.849 --> 00:36:24.869 Well, you know, you don't get a lot of money 753 00:36:24.909 --> 00:36:25.670 when you're a scientist. 754 00:36:25.730 --> 00:36:25.929 Right. 755 00:36:26.030 --> 00:36:28.530 It's not a money-making profession. You go into what is 756 00:36:28.590 --> 00:36:32.610 the biggest rate of exchange among scientists? It's ego. It's ego. 757 00:36:33.190 --> 00:36:35.070 But it's just so crazy to think that if it 758 00:36:35.130 --> 00:36:38.969 doesn't have this one characteristic of language that you're calling 759 00:36:39.010 --> 00:36:41.610 them primates, there's not a value judgment. You're saying it's 760 00:36:41.630 --> 00:36:43.690 a different kind of language. And this is fascinating. 761 00:36:43.909 --> 00:36:49.190 Exactly. That's my take. And many anthropologists took that. This, 762 00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:54.530 you know, so for example, they originally said that Homo 763 00:36:54.570 --> 00:36:58.150 erectus had no capability for human speech. And I thought 764 00:36:58.190 --> 00:37:01.599 that was kind of a questionable statement since you know, 765 00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:03.360 I've read a lot on Homo erectus, read a book 766 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:10.639 about it and they don't, um, um, they, all their accomplishments, 767 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.489 they had to have pretty advanced language to account for 768 00:37:13.530 --> 00:37:15.809 the fact that the ocean was never a barrier for them. 769 00:37:16.590 --> 00:37:19.829 And so I said that Homo erectus had language and 770 00:37:19.869 --> 00:37:22.030 I think the evidence supports that, but they don't have 771 00:37:22.449 --> 00:37:27.099 the kind of language Chomsky says necessarily. And, um, So 772 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.159 an archaeologist at the University of Liverpool wrote me, and 773 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.639 he says, my specialty is Homo erectus, and I think 774 00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:35.679 you're right. So we wrote a paper together. And then 775 00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:39.889 after we wrote the paper, he discovered last year the 776 00:37:40.130 --> 00:37:45.489 oldest wooden structure known in all of human history, 500,000-year-old 777 00:37:45.550 --> 00:37:49.530 structure built by Homo erectus in Zambia. And he showed 778 00:37:49.570 --> 00:37:54.969 that it has interlocking pieces and parts that, Nobody ever 779 00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:57.010 expected Homo erectus to be able to do, and their 780 00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:01.059 brains weren't that much smaller than ours. The average size 781 00:38:01.099 --> 00:38:04.760 of a modern human's brain is about 1,200 cc's for 782 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:10.760 men and about 950 to 1,100 cc's for women. And 783 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:12.889 since we know that men aren't more intelligent than women, 784 00:38:12.949 --> 00:38:15.730 the size of the brain can't be what's determining that. 785 00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:18.710 Homo erectus had brains of 950 to 1,000 cc's, cubic centimeters, 786 00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:24.969 You measure that by taking the skull and filling it 787 00:38:25.010 --> 00:38:27.590 full of sand and seeing how much sand fits in there. 788 00:38:29.349 --> 00:38:32.650 And so they were able to make these complex structures 789 00:38:32.710 --> 00:38:34.349 and they were able to make boats and they were 790 00:38:34.369 --> 00:38:37.730 able to do all these things. Yeah, that's what Larry 791 00:38:37.789 --> 00:38:42.150 Barham from the University of Liverpool discovered. This structure, you 792 00:38:42.190 --> 00:38:45.230 see the cross piece. And he recently gave a talk 793 00:38:45.789 --> 00:38:51.030 to a world association of archaeologists. to get their judgment 794 00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:55.429 on what this could be. Not archaeologists, but architects, to 795 00:38:55.469 --> 00:38:58.230 get their professional judgment. And they were really impressed by this. 796 00:38:58.289 --> 00:39:00.989 They said that's actually a pretty advanced structure for building 797 00:39:02.730 --> 00:39:04.070 a walkway or a house. 798 00:39:04.690 --> 00:39:07.630 We actually discussed this yesterday. I had a guy on 799 00:39:07.690 --> 00:39:10.789 named Michael Button. He's got a fantastic YouTube channel. It's 800 00:39:10.809 --> 00:39:13.969 all about sort of the mysteries of human history. And 801 00:39:14.710 --> 00:39:17.789 we talked about the seafaring aspect and how much evidence 802 00:39:17.829 --> 00:39:20.690 there is that these people were seafaring as much as 803 00:39:20.750 --> 00:39:21.559 a million years ago. 804 00:39:21.739 --> 00:39:25.139 Yeah, yeah. And in my book, How Language Began, I have. 805 00:39:25.300 --> 00:39:26.429 They had to be communicated. 806 00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:31.929 Yeah, you can't... There's an archaeologist in Australia. Bednarik is 807 00:39:31.969 --> 00:39:37.920 his name, and he showed by... He did experiments, and 808 00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:41.099 they're not exact because you can't find humans today that 809 00:39:41.139 --> 00:39:44.940 don't have any language, normal humans. But he got humans 810 00:39:44.980 --> 00:39:47.980 from different languages who couldn't communicate with each other that 811 00:39:48.019 --> 00:39:50.900 well to see if they could build a boat. And 812 00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:53.739 then another linguist wrote a paper based on some of 813 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.000 this called How Much Language Does It Take to Build 814 00:39:56.059 --> 00:39:58.300 a Boat? And it turns out you've got to have 815 00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:00.900 language to build a boat. And so if they were 816 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:03.880 building these boats that could carry water and could carry 817 00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:05.880 as many as 20 people because you've got to have 818 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:08.679 enough to... If you find a colony of Homo erectus 819 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:11.590 on an island that was always an island, it

was 820 00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:15.909 never connected by land, there had to be more than 821 00:40:16.010 --> 00:40:18.769 one person that washed up there on some vegetation. There 822 00:40:18.809 --> 00:40:20.010 has to have been a community. 823 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:25.219 Yeah, Michael brought up that the– what was it? What 824 00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:28.829 organization did it? Was it NASA? NASA did a study 825 00:40:28.869 --> 00:40:30.289 because they were trying to figure out how many people 826 00:40:30.329 --> 00:40:35.269 you need to colonize another planet. And they came up 827 00:40:35.289 --> 00:40:38.030 with the number 500. You need a minimum of 500 828 00:40:38.030 --> 00:40:42.050 to begin a colony. Right. In order to have genetic diversity, 829 00:40:42.150 --> 00:40:44.050 make sure you're not having sex with your cousin, that 830 00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:45.429 kind of jazz. 831 00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:48.440 Yeah, so you can't. just sent a couple over there, 832 00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:49.059 Adam and Eve. 833 00:40:49.300 --> 00:40:49.480 Right. 834 00:40:49.659 --> 00:40:50.900 And expect this to happen. 835 00:40:51.059 --> 00:40:53.119 Yeah. How did you feel about that story when you 836 00:40:53.139 --> 00:40:53.659 first heard it? 837 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:54.320 Adam and Eve? 838 00:40:54.380 --> 00:40:57.139 Yeah. When you, when you were converting, you're 17, you're 839 00:40:57.159 --> 00:40:57.840 doing acid. 840 00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:00.000 I mean, I was one of these guys who I 841 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.179 believe the Bible cover to cover and even the covers. 842 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:04.300 Uh, so we'll get to that in a minute. 843 00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:04.559 Yeah. 844 00:41:04.659 --> 00:41:07.679 So, but go back to how this is all going down. 845 00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:10.300 With, uh, the, the controversy. 846 00:41:10.449 --> 00:41:10.769 Yes. 847 00:41:10.849 --> 00:41:14.909 So I started getting hate mail and then, um, uh, 848 00:41:15.789 --> 00:41:19.010 The article came out when I first proposed this in 849 00:41:19.050 --> 00:41:23.599 the major journal of anthropology, Current Anthropology. I was in 850 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:26.260 Germany at the time at the Max Planck Institute for 851 00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.559 Evolutionary Anthropology. And right down the hall from me was 852 00:41:30.579 --> 00:41:33.579 Svante Pebo, who just won the Nobel Prize for decoding 853 00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:38.139 the genome of Neanderthals. And there was a reporter, a 854 00:41:38.179 --> 00:41:42.300 German reporter from Der Spiegel, to talk to him. And 855 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.340 she found out about my article, so she walked down 856 00:41:44.380 --> 00:41:46.320 the hall after she interviewed him and interviewed me. And 857 00:41:46.340 --> 00:41:48.239 this came out, and it started to get picked up 858 00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:51.699 in the press in a lot of places. And so 859 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:55.179 the New Yorker did a big profile. But then the 860 00:41:55.219 --> 00:41:58.659 reaction came, and it wasn't what I expected. I expected 861 00:41:58.699 --> 00:42:01.889 that if you make a proposal, that other scientists, if 862 00:42:01.909 --> 00:42:04.150 they're skeptical, which they have every right to be, are 863 00:42:04.170 --> 00:42:07.570 going to propose experiments to test what you're saying. And 864 00:42:07.590 --> 00:42:09.630 they're going to say, well, if they don't have recursion, 865 00:42:09.670 --> 00:42:11.610 you should find this and you should not find that. 866 00:42:11.670 --> 00:42:14.190 You should get this and this and this. And I 867 00:42:14.250 --> 00:42:16.989 tried to anticipate that. But that's the kind of objection 868 00:42:17.030 --> 00:42:20.309 I expected. But instead, they said, I'm a liar. I'm 869 00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:22.969 trying to get publicity. You know, I had a New 870 00:42:23.010 --> 00:42:25.769 York Times reporter. She called me and she said, do 871 00:42:25.809 --> 00:42:28.489 you try to get publicity? I said, did I ask 872 00:42:28.530 --> 00:42:31.110 you to call me? I said, you know, you called me. 873 00:42:31.389 --> 00:42:34.079 I said, you know, it's an interesting story. If people 874 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:35.639 want to talk to me, I'm here to talk to them. 875 00:42:35.659 --> 00:42:37.940 But I'm not. I said, if I wrote you at 876 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.039 the New York Times and said I'm an interesting person, 877 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:42.320 interview me, would that make any difference? 878 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.559 They're not mutually exclusive. Like you could be trying to 879 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:49.480 get attention and publicity because you've discovered something that's very important. 880 00:42:49.929 --> 00:42:52.269 The idea that you're just trying to get attention. Are 881 00:42:52.289 --> 00:42:54.909 you trying to get attention? What are you talking about? 882 00:42:54.929 --> 00:43:02.889 It's so weird that the– intellectuals, the people who are 883 00:43:02.949 --> 00:43:07.429 literally professional thinkers, would fall into these like common human 884 00:43:07.530 --> 00:43:09.289 traps of ego. Yeah. 885 00:43:10.590 --> 00:43:17.480 Well, it was a mind-blowing, mind-expanding experience for me to 886 00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:21.739 see that intellectuals that I otherwise admired as deep thinkers 887 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:25.699 about their subject would not think otherwise. And, you know, 888 00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:27.480 I mean, intellectuals. 889 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:31.079 Did they ever gauge you on the actual information? 890 00:43:31.860 --> 00:43:36.269 Yeah, I had people from MIT, Department of Brain and 891 00:43:36.289 --> 00:43:41.949 Cognitive Sciences, from Stanford, Department of Psychology, from Columbia University, 892 00:43:42.010 --> 00:43:44.889 came down at separate times to run experiments, and they 893 00:43:44.929

--> 00:43:49.500 were well-designed experiments to test what I said. And they 894 00:43:49.539 --> 00:43:52.440 all came away saying, you know, it looks like Dan's right. 895 00:43:52.460 --> 00:43:58.349 You So where's the reaction then? And what do they 896 00:43:58.449 --> 00:44:01.050 say about that? Like the people that are negative about 897 00:44:01.090 --> 00:44:03.250 this and the people that are calling you a racist 898 00:44:03.329 --> 00:44:06.110 and all this saying you're trying to get attention, what 899 00:44:06.130 --> 00:44:07.650 are they saying about these results? 900 00:44:08.570 --> 00:44:12.340 They don't refer to them directly, but if asked, they 901 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.099 often say that these people don't like Chomsky. 902 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.829 So- All of them? 903 00:44:18.030 --> 00:44:18.289 Yeah. 904 00:44:18.570 --> 00:44:21.230 All of those individual scientists that are running these studies 905 00:44:21.269 --> 00:44:23.070 for you don't like Chomsky, and that's why they have 906 00:44:23.110 --> 00:44:24.030 these skewed results? 907 00:44:24.510 --> 00:44:27.210 That is one of the many objections that people raise. 908 00:44:27.230 --> 00:44:28.949 But by and large, they ignore it. 909 00:44:29.670 --> 00:44:31.989 They ignore it? Yeah. So they ignore the studies? 910 00:44:32.380 --> 00:44:35.449 Yeah, I had Chomsky write me some really nasty emails. 911 00:44:35.889 --> 00:44:36.239 You got them? 912 00:44:36.260 --> 00:44:37.159 Do you got them still? 913 00:44:37.340 --> 00:44:40.920 I have them. Yeah, I do have them. And I 914 00:44:41.019 --> 00:44:43.599 asked him, I said, why don't we debate at the 915 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:46.880 Linguistic Society of America? I said, you think I'm an idiot, 916 00:44:46.940 --> 00:44:48.920 so here's your chance. You can show that I'm an idiot. 917 00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:51.460 Just we'll debate, and you'll make a fool of me 918 00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:52.099 in five minutes. 919 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.530 Is he saying he thinks you're an idiot when you're 920 00:44:54.550 --> 00:44:56.190 explaining a language that he doesn't know? 921 00:44:56.510 --> 00:44:57.769 I'm an idiot or I'm a liar. 922 00:44:58.630 --> 00:44:59.869 Oh, my God. 923 00:44:59.989 --> 00:45:02.849 He gave an interview to a Brazilian newspaper, and he said, 924 00:45:03.489 --> 00:45:07.280 Dan used to be a fairly good linguist, but he 925 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.570 is a charlatan. He's just a 100% charlatan. And he 926 00:45:10.590 --> 00:45:13.510 was interviewed on a Spanish station, and they said, what 927 00:45:13.530 --> 00:45:15.469 do you think of the contributions of Dan Everett? And 928 00:45:15.510 --> 00:45:18.219 he said, they're nothing, nothing, nothing. 929 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:19.539 Oh, my God. 930 00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:20.460 And he's really popular. 931 00:45:21.019 --> 00:45:23.719 I used to really admire him. Yeah. I used to 932 00:45:23.780 --> 00:45:25.920 really admire him. Then I found out I was close 933 00:45:25.940 --> 00:45:28.820 homies with Jeffrey Epstein. That kind of threw a lot 934 00:45:28.860 --> 00:45:31.460 of water on that. Like, what? Yeah. Yeah. But then 935 00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:33.519 it was the stance during the vaccines when it was 936 00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:35.699 like people that weren't vaccinated should be round up and 937 00:45:35.739 --> 00:45:38.929 put into camps. So he had some crazy positions on 938 00:45:39.150 --> 00:45:45.190 the unvaccinated people and very just misinformed, just completely misinformed 939 00:45:45.230 --> 00:45:49.840 about whether it was natural immunity or there was other 940 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.800 medications that were treat that you could use to treat 941 00:45:53.539 --> 00:45:57.280 COVID-19 or even the. the efficacy of the vaccine. It 942 00:45:57.300 --> 00:46:00.260 was crazy. That was just one thing about him. There's 943 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:04.659 just like his earlier debates, like he's got these fantastic debates. 944 00:46:05.179 --> 00:46:07.750 I think it's him and William F. Buckley. Have you 945 00:46:07.789 --> 00:46:11.230 ever seen those? He's so good in those. He's so 946 00:46:11.369 --> 00:46:15.269 brilliant in those. It was a young Chomsky and like 947 00:46:15.429 --> 00:46:18.929 his intellect and his reason, it was like a breath 948 00:46:18.969 --> 00:46:22.519 of fresh air. It was like Super well informed. Every 949 00:46:22.579 --> 00:46:26.519 time Buckley tried to catch him on something, he judoed him. 950 00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:27.599 It was amazing. 951 00:46:27.980 --> 00:46:29.980 Yeah, well, the first two books of Chomsky I read 952 00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:33.559 when I started doing graduate work in linguistics. 953 00:46:33.860 --> 00:46:36.400 I read the media one. What is it? 954 00:46:36.739 --> 00:46:39.949 Oh, A Manufacturer of Consent. 955 00:46:39.989 --> 00:46:40.469 That's right. 956 00:46:40.590 --> 00:46:43.869 Yeah. But he had the first book of his I read. 957 00:46:44.210 --> 00:46:47.210 It was in linguistics, Aspects of the Theory of Syntax. 958 00:46:47.869 --> 00:46:50.050 And if you're a linguist and you're studying linguistics, that's 959 00:46:50.130 --> 00:46:53.630 just genius. It is just brilliant. And then the next 960 00:46:53.670 --> 00:46:57.590 book that he published the same year was American Power 961 00:46:57.699 --> 00:47:00.880 and the New Mandarins, which was about Vietnam. And that 962 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:03.880 was also brilliant. And, you know, for one person to 963 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.760 publish two books like that in one year, I mean, 964 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:10.280 that's just first-order genius. So I admired him. 965 00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:12.380 What goes wrong with a guy like that, though? If 966 00:47:12.460 --> 00:47:15.039 a guy can be that smart, how can he not 967 00:47:15.139 --> 00:47:17.840 be curious about it? How

could he not? Like when 968 00:47:17.900 --> 00:47:20.699 you say something that flies in the face of everything 969 00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:24.159 that he's taught, how could he not be curious and 970 00:47:24.219 --> 00:47:27.010 want to talk to you? And if you're right, why 971 00:47:27.030 --> 00:47:29.199 would he not want to like do something with you? 972 00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:31.690 Like if I found someone like you and I was, 973 00:47:31.849 --> 00:47:33.329 I mean, I would have hoped that that would be 974 00:47:33.369 --> 00:47:35.550 the same way as I am now. And I had 975 00:47:35.590 --> 00:47:38.070 an opportunity. I said, we should do a podcast together. 976 00:47:38.090 --> 00:47:39.869 We could explain this. This is crazy. 977 00:47:40.110 --> 00:47:42.269 Right. I invited him to the Pita Ha. He was 978 00:47:42.329 --> 00:47:44.889 coming to Brazil. And I said, hey, why don't you 979 00:47:44.929 --> 00:47:46.869 come with me to the Pita Ha? And I'll ask 980 00:47:46.909 --> 00:47:48.429 them any question you want me to ask them. We 981 00:47:48.469 --> 00:47:50.449 can talk about it there. And he said, I don't 982 00:47:50.489 --> 00:47:52.449 do that kind of thing. I don't do field work. 983 00:47:53.389 --> 00:47:54.030 So he didn't come. 984 00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:57.360 Good move. You don't want typhoid fever and fucking malaria 985 00:47:57.510 --> 00:48:00.360 bit by snakes, stalked by jaguars. That's all true. See, 986 00:48:00.460 --> 00:48:05.659 he's smart. It's just very disappointing when people are really brilliant. 987 00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.760 He's a brilliant guy. And essentially, I mean, especially rather 988 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:13.750 was really brilliant when he was young. It's just so 989 00:48:13.829 --> 00:48:16.469 sad when you see someone like that just behaving with 990 00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:20.420 ego because he was the expert. He was the foremost 991 00:48:20.619 --> 00:48:21.800 linguist on planet Earth. 992 00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:23.940 When the New York Times is saying things like you're 993 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:27.460 the most important intellectual alive and you have people hanging 994 00:48:27.579 --> 00:48:30.400 off every word as though it comes from, you know, 995 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.019 the Oracle of Apollo. 996 00:48:32.139 --> 00:48:32.840 Yeah. 997 00:48:34.099 --> 00:48:36.469 I assume that it affects your ego to some degree. 998 00:48:36.469 --> 00:48:40.010 100 percent. Most people, especially back then when there's no 999 00:48:40.070 --> 00:48:42.349 Internet to check you. You know, you can get a 1000 00:48:42.409 --> 00:48:46.800 really distorted perception of how you stand. Also, everyone's kissing 1001 00:48:46.820 --> 00:48:50.500 your ass. You're surrounded by other people that are trying 1002 00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:52.519 to climb the same ladder you're on. You're in a 1003 00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:54.579 very lofty position of authority and power. 1004 00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:58.469 You know, he wrote letters of recommendation for me for 1005 00:48:58.510 --> 00:48:59.780 my first job in the U.S. 1006 00:48:59.929 --> 00:49:00.269 Really? 1007 00:49:00.409 --> 00:49:02.170 And he wrote a letter of recommendation when I came 1008 00:49:02.210 --> 00:49:05.210 up for promotion to tenure at the University of Pittsburgh. 1009 00:49:05.469 --> 00:49:06.929 Why would he do that if you're an idiot? 1010 00:49:07.070 --> 00:49:11.840 But I wasn't yet an idiot. Right. I became an idiot. 1011 00:49:12.139 --> 00:49:14.800 You became an idiot when you disagreed with him. Yeah. Meanwhile, 1012 00:49:14.889 --> 00:49:18.030 ha ha, you're right. That's what's funny. In the end, 1013 00:49:18.530 --> 00:49:19.849 you're right. Yeah. Well. 1014 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:24.579 He, you know, I've had so many exchanges in journals 1015 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:28.039 and magazines and things with his followers over the years 1016 00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:32.079 and with him that, you know, I go give a 1017 00:49:32.099 --> 00:49:34.360 talk somewhere and people say, you know, I hope you're 1018 00:49:34.409 --> 00:49:36.610 ready because there's a lot of skeptic, a lot of 1019 00:49:36.650 --> 00:49:39.380 skeptics in this audience. And I say, I don't think 1020 00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.139 they're going to ask me any new questions. I've done 1021 00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:43.070 this so much now that they're going to ask me. 1022 00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:46.929 I said, I'll be surprised if anybody asks me a 1023 00:49:47.429 --> 00:49:49.590 question that I haven't heard from Chomsky. 1024 00:49:50.570 --> 00:49:53.750 And when you have these conversations with Chomsky and you 1025 00:49:53.889 --> 00:49:57.820 lay out how the Piraha use their language and what 1026 00:49:57.860 --> 00:50:00.579 they say and how it works, what was his reaction 1027 00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.019 to that? You're just incorrect. 1028 00:50:02.610 --> 00:50:04.239 Well, the first time I talked to him about it, 1029 00:50:04.309 --> 00:50:06.690 he had not made this claim about recursion. This was 1030 00:50:06.929 --> 00:50:11.780 in 1984. I was a visitor at MIT Linguistics, and 1031 00:50:11.820 --> 00:50:14.519 my office was next to his. And so I talked 1032 00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.679 to him several times that year. And I said, I 1033 00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:23.199 don't think their language has this property. And he said, 1034 00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:25.699 you know, he was drinking coffee and looking at the board. 1035 00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:28.239 He had a blackboard right by his desk. And he said, hmm, 1036 00:50:28.460 --> 00:50:31.079 wonder what the consequences of that are. And then one 1037 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:33.130 of his Ph.D. students told me, oh, you really got 1038 00:50:33.150 --> 00:50:36.610 known thinking. What is this? He found that very intriguing. 1039 00:50:36.929 --> 00:50:38.960 But then when he came out with the

proclamation that 1040 00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.219 all languages had to have it, then I became an idiot. 1041 00:50:41.579 --> 00:50:49.489 Oh, God, that's so disappointing. Fucking people. Yeah. Fucking people. 1042 00:50:50.329 --> 00:50:55.110 Even the brightest minds. They're just, ego is such a motherfucker. 1043 00:50:55.469 --> 00:50:58.010 Yeah. Well, it's, it's really disappointing because, you know, he 1044 00:50:58.050 --> 00:51:00.210 was like my idol for the first part of my 1045 00:51:00.250 --> 00:51:01.070 linguistic career. 1046 00:51:01.090 --> 00:51:01.190 Right. 1047 00:51:01.750 --> 00:51:02.510 And I wasn't. 1048 00:51:03.090 --> 00:51:04.900 Did you try to have a conversation with him after 1049 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:08.119 he denounced you? Did you try to like one-on-one get 1050 00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:08.679 together with him? 1051 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.079 Well, we exchanged emails. 1052 00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:13.639 So for example, in his face, like right in front 1053 00:51:13.659 --> 00:51:14.699 of him, did you try to do that? 1054 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:18.389 Uh, I had always told him when I was going 1055 00:51:18.409 --> 00:51:21.610 through Cambridge that I was coming and maybe he and 1056 00:51:21.650 --> 00:51:24.829 I could talk. And he always made time. And we talked. 1057 00:51:25.070 --> 00:51:27.000 I would be living somewhere else and I'd come to 1058 00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:29.519 MIT and he'd talk to me. And my first PhD 1059 00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:32.840 student is a full professor at MIT. And he started 1060 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:37.039 off in linguistics. He's in brain and cognitive sciences now. 1061 00:51:37.340 --> 00:51:39.429 So I had a good relationship with Chomsky. But then 1062 00:51:39.489 --> 00:51:41.570 suddenly he never had time to meet with me. 1063 00:51:41.989 --> 00:51:45.210 So after his proclamation. Right. Okay. 1064 00:51:45.429 --> 00:51:47.610 He had no time to meet with me. His wife died, 1065 00:51:47.849 --> 00:51:50.190 and I wrote him a letter saying, I'm so sorry 1066 00:51:50.230 --> 00:51:52.320 that Carol died. This is really terrible. I know you 1067 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:54.739 guys have been together for so long. And he wrote 1068 00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:57.139 back and said, thank you so much. That means a 1069 00:51:57.159 --> 00:51:59.440 great deal to me. And then I saw this article 1070 00:51:59.500 --> 00:52:01.679 in a Sao Paulo paper where he called me a charlatan. 1071 00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:03.780 So I wrote him right back, and I said, did 1072 00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:06.820 you call me a charlatan? And he said, yeah, you 1073 00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:09.449 are a charlatan. I said, you should be ashamed of yourself. 1074 00:52:09.489 --> 00:52:11.389 He said, no, you should be ashamed of yourself for 1075 00:52:11.449 --> 00:52:15.340 saying things you know that can't be right. So that 1076 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:17.139 was the last exchange we had.

Silly, silly. 1077 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:18.980 No, of course you should have had that in front 1078 00:52:19.019 --> 00:52:22.619 of them. I mean, just, I think people say things 1079 00:52:22.659 --> 00:52:25.219 in emails that I think is a terrible way to communicate. 1080 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:26.519 I agree completely. 1081 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.719 You know, that's especially with insults. It's just, it's such 1082 00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:33.159 a way. And then you're waiting on the other person's 1083 00:52:33.239 --> 00:52:36.869 insult in return. Like, God, stop it. Are you fucking 1084 00:52:36.869 --> 00:52:37.349 12 years old? 1085 00:52:37.650 --> 00:52:37.929 Yeah. 1086 00:52:38.289 --> 00:52:38.650 Stop. 1087 00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:43.239 So the author, Tom Wolfe, um, The last book he 1088 00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:46.659 wrote was called Kingdom of Speech. And he talked about 1089 00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:52.659 two controversies, Darwin versus Alfred Russell Wallace and me versus Chomsky. 1090 00:52:52.949 --> 00:52:53.340 Oh, wow. 1091 00:52:53.489 --> 00:52:56.489 And so he has a very he has some bizarre, 1092 00:52:56.849 --> 00:52:59.829 absolutely wrong ideas about where language came from. He's not 1093 00:52:59.869 --> 00:53:04.389 a linguist, but he did cover that controversy extremely well. And, 1094 00:53:04.409 --> 00:53:07.719 you know, Tom used to call me every week when 1095 00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:09.219 he was writing the book. I didn't even know what 1096 00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:11.340 it was about to ask to get the details right. 1097 00:53:11.969 --> 00:53:14.550 But he was just shocked how this happened. 1098 00:53:15.369 --> 00:53:20.420 Yeah. Again, it's disappointing. But even the most brilliant humans 1099 00:53:20.519 --> 00:53:21.139 are just human. 1100 00:53:21.699 --> 00:53:21.960 Right. 1101 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.840 And they're subject to all the flaws and all the 1102 00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:27.380 traps that the human mind could fall into. 1103 00:53:27.860 --> 00:53:32.329 Yeah. I've often said after long experience that intelligence is 1104 00:53:32.409 --> 00:53:33.929 no antidote for stupidity. 1105 00:53:34.510 --> 00:53:34.769 Right. 1106 00:53:34.869 --> 00:53:35.590 You can be both. 1107 00:53:36.050 --> 00:53:39.190 Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Especially when ego is involved. 1108 00:53:39.389 --> 00:53:39.590 Yeah. 1109 00:53:39.969 --> 00:53:43.599 So why? How many people, how many of the piddaha 1110 00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:44.579 did you convert? 1111 00:53:45.260 --> 00:53:52.300 Nobody. In decades, they weren't interested. 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This ad and 1131 00:55:03.650 --> 00:55:07.250 the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience. 1132 00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:11.420 But don't they have like mystical creatures and stuff that 1133 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:13.019 they believe live in the forest? 1134 00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:17.170 They do. And When I first got there as a Christian, 1135 00:55:18.010 --> 00:55:21.349 I called these things spirits because that's all I knew 1136 00:55:21.369 --> 00:55:21.869 how to characterize them. 1137 00:55:21.889 --> 00:55:22.750 How do they describe them? 1138 00:55:23.130 --> 00:55:26.769 They describe them as distinct beings. They don't say they're 1139 00:55:26.809 --> 00:55:32.230 spiritual or anything like that. But you see something. Maybe 1140 00:55:32.269 --> 00:55:35.300 there's another Indian from a different tribe hunting in your 1141 00:55:35.340 --> 00:55:37.679 jungle because there are some that are close enough to 1142 00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:40.400 be hunting in the same area. You see them, but 1143 00:55:40.420 --> 00:55:42.420 you don't see them well. They go behind a tree 1144 00:55:42.460 --> 00:55:46.139 or something. So you say, oh, that's one of these things. 1145 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:50.969 I just saw one of these things. They don't put 1146 00:55:50.989 --> 00:55:52.889 it to the test necessarily, but they did see it. 1147 00:55:52.889 --> 00:55:54.070 When they say these things. 1148 00:55:54.409 --> 00:55:58.170 So they have three major types of entities besides humans. 1149 00:55:59.190 --> 00:56:01.650 And they have different types of humans.

I'm one type 1150 00:56:01.730 --> 00:56:05.789 and they're another type. And so they have things. 1151 00:56:05.809 --> 00:56:08.630 How do they make the distinction? Is it the appearance? 1152 00:56:08.789 --> 00:56:12.429 For humans, yes, it's appearance. Well, actually for the other entities, 1153 00:56:12.469 --> 00:56:16.769 it's appearance too. So for me, I'm white. And white 1154 00:56:17.289 --> 00:56:20.150 means you don't have blood. So they asked me, they said, 1155 00:56:20.710 --> 00:56:23.969 so do you have blood? And they asked me one 1156 00:56:23.989 --> 00:56:25.579 time after I'd been there for years, they said, do 1157 00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:29.599 Americans die? And I said, yeah, we die. But you're 1158 00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:31.940 really old and you haven't died yet. And so I 1159 00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:33.300 cut myself once. 1160 00:56:33.340 --> 00:56:34.469 How old were you at the time? 1161 00:56:35.329 --> 00:56:37.119 Probably 45. 1162 00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:38.219 And they thought you were a goner. 1163 00:56:38.619 --> 00:56:41.300 Yeah, because we age differently. I already had gray hair, 1164 00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:42.619 you know, not all over. 1165 00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:44.639 Right. They look a lot different when they're 45. 1166 00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:47.320 Yeah, yeah. They're all still 100% black hair. 1167 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:49.969 Oh, they thought you were a goner with the white hair. 1168 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:54.849 So they have an expression, almost about to fall to 1169 00:56:54.869 --> 00:56:57.449 the ground. And that's the way they described me. 1170 00:56:57.670 --> 00:56:58.010 Wow. 1171 00:56:59.130 --> 00:57:02.190 So Americans are one way, Brazilians are another way. But 1172 00:57:02.210 --> 00:57:03.730 then there are these things, some of them are called 1173 00:57:03.789 --> 00:57:07.639 fast mouths. And so they They talk in a high-pitched voice. 1174 00:57:08.420 --> 00:57:11.960 And at night, you hear somebody, you know, a creature 1175 00:57:12.019 --> 00:57:15.110 talking in a high falsetto voice into the village. And 1176 00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:16.719 I say, what's that? And they said, oh, that's a 1177 00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:20.650 fast mouth. I said, but I'm seeing it, and it 1178 00:57:20.670 --> 00:57:22.250 looks like a pita ha. Oh, yeah, they look just 1179 00:57:22.269 --> 00:57:25.690 like us, but they're not. They're not us. And so 1180 00:57:26.369 --> 00:57:29.050 this is where we come to the border of fact 1181 00:57:29.130 --> 00:57:33.369 and fiction. And we try to draw a fairly rigid 1182 00:57:33.409 --> 00:57:36.980 line between fact and fiction. in our society and in 1183 00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:42.429 most European societies. But to them, they don't have to 1184 00:57:44.269 --> 00:57:48.050 have the full range of experience with this to describe it. 1185 00:57:48.590 --> 00:57:51.090 And so a fast mouth is just a fast mouth. 1186 00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:53.369

And you know who they are because they talk in 1187 00:57:53.389 --> 00:57:57.110 a high falsetto voice and they go naked. Whereas pitahas 1188 00:57:57.769 --> 00:57:59.809 often go naked, but if they have clothes, they'll wear them. 1189 00:57:59.929 --> 00:58:03.139 And the fast mouths will never wear clothes. And the 1190 00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:07.039 fast mouths are also sexually promiscuous. So I had a 1191 00:58:07.099 --> 00:58:10.440 reporter with me in the jungle from GEO magazine in Germany. 1192 00:58:11.059 --> 00:58:13.000 And he said, can I see one of these fast mouths? 1193 00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:16.119 And I told one guy, I said, he wants to 1194 00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:18.050 see a fast mouth. And he said, well, I'll go 1195 00:58:18.070 --> 00:58:20.429 get one. And he walks off into the jungle. And 1196 00:58:20.449 --> 00:58:24.710 then the same guy comes back in naked, talking in 1197 00:58:24.750 --> 00:58:29.130 this falsetto voice, and starts trying to hump the reporter. Yeah. 1198 00:58:31.570 --> 00:58:34.590 And the reporter says, oh, I'm feeling very uncomfortable. I said, 1199 00:58:34.610 --> 00:58:36.380 you asked for it. I mean, you know, I mean, 1200 00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:38.579 that's the way they are. And so I finally told 1201 00:58:38.619 --> 00:58:40.280 the guy, I said, you know, he doesn't he doesn't 1202 00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:42.159 want this. He doesn't want to see the fast mouth anymore. 1203 00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:44.219 So he talks to me in a high falsetto and 1204 00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:45.940 he walks off and he comes back on with his 1205 00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:50.650 clothes on. And I said, did you see the fast mouth? 1206 00:58:50.750 --> 00:58:52.630 He said, was there a fast mouth here? I was gone, 1207 00:58:53.110 --> 00:58:54.829 you know, but it's the same guy. 1208 00:58:56.429 --> 00:59:00.699 What did you take of that? Like, did you think 1209 00:59:00.780 --> 00:59:03.039 that they were playing a prank on you? Did you 1210 00:59:03.079 --> 00:59:06.389 think this is like some sort of a psychotic state 1211 00:59:06.429 --> 00:59:07.510 that they fall into? 1212 00:59:07.530 --> 00:59:13.710 It is a limit. area between being, say, theater and 1213 00:59:13.750 --> 00:59:17.699 being reality. And I don't know if they feel possessed. 1214 00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.679 I don't think they have a concept of possession. I've 1215 00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:23.360 asked them and I've investigated this and I've never seen that. 1216 00:59:23.900 --> 00:59:28.360 But they definitely believe that they're gone and this other 1217 00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:29.840 creature is there in their place. 1218 00:59:31.550 --> 00:59:34.659 Do they have memory of when they become a fast mouth? 1219 00:59:34.739 --> 00:59:36.780 They deny it. I've tried to get them to talk 1220 00:59:36.820 --> 00:59:37.099 about it. 1221 00:59:37.639 --> 00:59:37.980 I don't know. 1222 00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:38.619 I wasn't here. 1223 00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:40.039 Everyone denies it? 1224 00:59:40.179 --> 00:59:41.119 Everybody denies it. 1225 00:59:41.559 --> 00:59:44.219 Wow. Do you think that being a fast mouth is 1226 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:48.250 like almost like a license to go and do stuff 1227 00:59:48.269 --> 00:59:51.389 you're not supposed to do? Go fuck everybody? Yeah. You 1228 00:59:51.409 --> 00:59:52.210 think that's what it is? Yeah. 1229 00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:56.619 They also change names very frequently. So if I go 1230 00:59:56.639 --> 00:59:58.829 back there now, all my old friends will have different names. 1231 00:59:59.150 --> 01:00:01.909 And anything done under the old name is, you know, 1232 01:00:01.929 --> 01:00:04.269 you'll say, you remember when you did this? Well, I 1233 01:00:04.309 --> 01:00:07.130 didn't do that. That was the guy with this name. 1234 01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:11.440 So they don't even claim. So the concept of constancy 1235 01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:14.940 of identity throughout time, they deny this. 1236 01:00:15.699 --> 01:00:18.079 So when do they choose to make a new name 1237 01:00:18.179 --> 01:00:20.400 or do they get a new name assigned to them? 1238 01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:24.900 They can. Children often get new names for different phases 1239 01:00:24.940 --> 01:00:28.449 of life. But adults, if you're out in the jungle 1240 01:00:28.530 --> 01:00:30.710 and you think you saw something and you can't explain it, 1241 01:00:30.730 --> 01:00:31.590 you might take a new name. 1242 01:00:35.929 --> 01:00:37.469 Not a bad idea, right? 1243 01:00:37.849 --> 01:00:39.570 This is a way of coping with things. 1244 01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:41.780 Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. If something 1245 01:00:41.940 --> 01:00:44.880 really traumatic happens to you and you want to reclaim 1246 01:00:44.900 --> 01:00:47.900 your life, you change your name, start over from scratch. Right. 1247 01:00:48.519 --> 01:00:50.619 And some of us do it in American culture, but 1248 01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:53.579 it's a lot harder legal process to change your name. 1249 01:00:53.760 --> 01:00:55.639 How often do they get killed by jaguars? 1250 01:00:56.920 --> 01:01:00.090 Nobody's ever been killed in my almost 50 years coming 1251 01:01:00.110 --> 01:01:02.309 and going, but many of them have been attacked. 1252 01:01:02.769 --> 01:01:03.429 Really? Yeah. 1253 01:01:03.489 --> 01:01:08.050 Like one guy was coming back from getting Brazil nuts, 1254 01:01:08.110 --> 01:01:10.829 and he had a big basket. And so his head's 1255 01:01:11.329 --> 01:01:13.599 down a bit with the tump line, and the basket 1256 01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:18.949 probably weighs, you know, 60 pounds. Yeah. suddenly a jaguar 1257 01:01:19.010 --> 01:01:21.070 jumps out of the tree right on his back, but 1258 01:01:21.110 --> 01:01:23.469 it got the basket and not him, and it pulled 1259 01:01:23.489 --> 01:01:26.789 the basket off his head, and he shot it with 1260

01:01:26.829 --> 01:01:27.150 an arrow. 1261 01:01:28.170 --> 01:01:28.750 Oh, my God. 1262 01:01:28.809 --> 01:01:31.030 But they tell me that when you shoot a jaguar 1263 01:01:31.090 --> 01:01:33.869 with an arrow, the jaguar forgets about you and keeps 1264 01:01:33.889 --> 01:01:36.820 trying to get the arrow out. And by that time, 1265 01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:40.840 you've got three or four more arrows in it. So 1266 01:01:40.860 --> 01:01:43.699 these guys are deadly accurate with bows and arrows. 1267 01:01:43.780 --> 01:01:47.929 So if they did that and, like, maybe— they got attacked, 1268 01:01:48.090 --> 01:01:49.389 would they change their name after that? 1269 01:01:49.730 --> 01:01:52.170 They could. And I, so I don't completely have it 1270 01:01:52.210 --> 01:01:53.090 down to a formula. 1271 01:01:53.530 --> 01:01:56.550 Oh, okay. So it's not, it's not like when they're uncomfortable, 1272 01:01:56.590 --> 01:01:58.730 sometimes it's just like, it's time. It's time that Bob 1273 01:01:58.760 --> 01:01:59.030 becomes Mike. 1274 01:01:59.050 --> 01:02:02.480 It's a subjective reaction to objective experience that causes them 1275 01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:03.039 to do this. 1276 01:02:03.519 --> 01:02:05.420 And they, do they announce it to the village? 1277 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.579 They announce it to their, like their spouse or their kids. 1278 01:02:09.820 --> 01:02:12.760 And then the word spreads. And so I'll come back in. 1279 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:14.750 I came back in after six months and my buddy, 1280 01:02:14.789 --> 01:02:20.489 my main language teacher, And his name was, when I left, 1281 01:02:20.630 --> 01:02:24.909 it was Kohoi Behe, which means blood eater. And when 1282 01:02:24.949 --> 01:02:26.949 I got back, I said, you know, and the nickname 1283 01:02:27.010 --> 01:02:27.369 is Ko. 1284 01:02:27.489 --> 01:02:27.909 Hey, Ko. 1285 01:02:28.230 --> 01:02:29.710 You know, I asked him, how are you doing? And 1286 01:02:29.849 --> 01:02:31.949 nobody responds. He didn't turn and look at me or anything. 1287 01:02:32.050 --> 01:02:34.210 And I called him again and again. He said, you 1288 01:02:34.230 --> 01:02:36.190 talking to me? I said, yeah. He said, that's not 1289 01:02:36.210 --> 01:02:38.550 my name. And so I had to learn his new 1290 01:02:38.590 --> 01:02:42.789 name was Ka Paobi, you know, which, and he was 1291 01:02:42.829 --> 01:02:46.579 serious about it. He wouldn't respond anymore to that old name. Wow. 1292 01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:50.340 How odd. The first time that happened, were you like, oh, 1293 01:02:50.420 --> 01:02:51.960 my God, these people are fucking crazy? 1294 01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:54.739 No, I thought, I'm pretty stupid. I can't even remember 1295 01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:57.179 their names. Wow. That was my first reaction. 1296 01:02:57.260 --> 01:03:01.389 How quickly did this happen from you first, like, encountering 1297 01:03:01.409 --> 01:03:01.849 these people? 1298 01:03:02.429 --> 01:03:06.250 Well, I would be gone for three or four months 1299 01:03:06.309 --> 01:03:08.949 at a time and then come back because I was 1300 01:03:09.369 --> 01:03:10.070 doing linguistic. 1301 01:03:10.170 --> 01:03:13.110 Oh, so you never experienced it, like, as it was happening? 1302 01:03:13.460 --> 01:03:13.980 One time. 1303 01:03:14.260 --> 01:03:17.190 One time there was... You really need to spend at 1304 01:03:17.250 --> 01:03:19.409 least a full year there so you can see all 1305 01:03:19.449 --> 01:03:22.099 the seasons and all the changes. Then I saw some 1306 01:03:22.119 --> 01:03:24.159 of the stuff. But many of the name changes happened 1307 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:25.960 when I was out of the village. Some of them 1308 01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.659 happened when I was in the village. But my best friends, 1309 01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:30.780 their name changes seemed to happen when I was out 1310 01:03:30.820 --> 01:03:34.030 of the village. And they were very serious about enforcing 1311 01:03:34.070 --> 01:03:39.550 those new name changes. So if you ask them to 1312 01:03:39.610 --> 01:03:43.820 tell stories about their childhood, you get these very vague stories. 1313 01:03:44.389 --> 01:03:47.019 And they'll say, you know, but I'm talking about this person, 1314 01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:49.900 you know. Or they'll tell me, you know, they changed 1315 01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:53.260 my name twice, you know. And so they name me 1316 01:03:53.300 --> 01:03:55.219 and so a guy comes up to me and he says, 1317 01:03:56.059 --> 01:03:58.559 that name is rotten, which is the same word you 1318 01:03:58.619 --> 01:04:02.090 use for spoiled food. You know, your name is spoiled. 1319 01:04:03.250 --> 01:04:05.170 So I'm going to give you this name. And then 1320 01:04:05.190 --> 01:04:07.090 I got it. Then one time I was in there 1321 01:04:07.349 --> 01:04:09.269 and was staying with this guy. He's just wearing a 1322 01:04:09.289 --> 01:04:13.550 loincloth and the other pitahaw fearing because he's this fierce guy. 1323 01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:18.269 And he says, you're really old. You know, they always 1324 01:04:18.309 --> 01:04:20.530 tell me that. He said, you're really old. And I said, 1325 01:04:21.289 --> 01:04:22.909 I'm not that old. He said, yeah, you are. My 1326 01:04:22.949 --> 01:04:25.210 dad's dead and you're about the same age as he was. 1327 01:04:25.269 --> 01:04:27.750 You know, they don't know what the age is. He said, 1328 01:04:27.789 --> 01:04:30.679 I'm gonna give you my dad's name. And Bao Aisi, 1329 01:04:30.699 --> 01:04:32.579 which is just the name of his dad. So that's 1330 01:04:32.619 --> 01:04:34.679 been my name ever since. I've had that name now 1331 01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:35.800 for about 15 years. 1332 01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:39.139 And when you go back, what happens if they want 1333 01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:40.489 to switch it up again? You have to learn a 1334 01:04:40.510 -->

01:04:43.070 new name? Yeah, yeah. And that could easily happen, right? 1335 01:04:43.269 --> 01:04:45.070 Yeah, it could easily happen. It just depends on which 1336 01:04:45.110 --> 01:04:46.949 village you go to and which person you're talking to. 1337 01:04:47.469 --> 01:04:49.570 What is the population of these people? 1338 01:04:50.190 --> 01:04:51.719 When I first got there, it was under 200. And 1339 01:04:51.780 --> 01:04:57.289 now it's around 700 to 800. They've grown because they've 1340 01:04:57.309 --> 01:05:00.170 had more medical assistance. I gave them medical assistance, my 1341 01:05:00.230 --> 01:05:02.469 wife and I, for 20 years. 1342 01:05:03.329 --> 01:05:09.340 And so your goal was to convert them to Christianity. Right. 1343 01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:12.800 So no one's buying it. So what are you doing? 1344 01:05:13.480 --> 01:05:15.699 What do your days consist of while you're there? 1345 01:05:15.780 --> 01:05:21.449 Well, my days consist of linguistic analysis and translation effort. 1346 01:05:22.269 --> 01:05:24.650 So I'll work with somebody. And so I worked with 1347 01:05:24.690 --> 01:05:27.860 this guy, for example— And we went through the story 1348 01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.599 of Jesus. I had translated a large part of the 1349 01:05:30.619 --> 01:05:33.679 Gospel of Luke. And I tell him this story. And 1350 01:05:33.699 --> 01:05:37.360 then I showed film strips, you know, made by, you know, 1351 01:05:37.380 --> 01:05:40.139 where Jesus looks like an American and has a beard 1352 01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:43.420 and all this stuff. And I explained it. They don't 1353 01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:46.699 make a difference between drawings and photographs. So they figured 1354 01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:50.420 it must be Jesus. He saw Jesus. So that night 1355 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:52.320 after I told him all this and we'd seen the 1356 01:05:52.340 --> 01:05:56.010 film strips, His village was across the river. I lived 1357 01:05:56.050 --> 01:05:58.170 in one village, and across the river was another village, 1358 01:05:58.210 --> 01:06:00.769 and they went across the river. And all night long, 1359 01:06:00.829 --> 01:06:03.829 I heard screaming and yelling and people running around and 1360 01:06:03.869 --> 01:06:07.510 women laughing and then women screaming. And the next morning, 1361 01:06:07.530 --> 01:06:09.050 he comes back to work with me, and I said, 1362 01:06:09.150 --> 01:06:11.510 so what was going on all night? He said, oh, 1363 01:06:11.550 --> 01:06:15.750 Jesus came to our village. I said, what? He said, yeah, 1364 01:06:15.769 --> 01:06:17.110 he came to our village, you know, and he had 1365 01:06:17.150 --> 01:06:20.719 a penis three feet long. They don't have words for feet, 1366 01:06:20.760 --> 01:06:23.260 so I'm just going by his hand thing. He said, 1367 01:06:23.300 --> 01:06:24.800 and he was trying to stick it in all the women. 1368 01:06:25.380 --> 01:06:27.820 And so, you know, the women don't want to know 1369 01:06:27.860 --> 01:06:28.619 anymore about Jesus. 1370 01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:30.039 What? 1371 01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:34.840 This is their way of rejecting it. So I never 1372 01:06:34.900 --> 01:06:37.719 expected that. In all my Bible training and things. 1373 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:41.900 Did they say, so they wouldn't admit if one of 1374 01:06:41.940 --> 01:06:44.920 them became like they become a fast talker if they 1375 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:45.940 just became Jesus. 1376 01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:46.260 Right. 1377 01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:47.960 But that could have been what happened. 1378 01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:49.139 I'm sure that's what happened. 1379 01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:51.420 So one guy just decided I'm Jesus. 1380 01:06:51.500 --> 01:06:54.539 Yeah. But everybody took him, you're Jesus. 1381 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:55.059 Yeah. 1382 01:06:55.179 --> 01:06:56.599 And this is what Jesus is trying to do. 1383 01:06:57.320 --> 01:06:58.280 Oh, boy. 1384 01:06:58.460 --> 01:07:01.260 But they would ask questions like, you know, hey, Dan, 1385 01:07:02.119 --> 01:07:04.150 what does Jesus look like? Is he brown like us 1386 01:07:04.269 --> 01:07:05.889 or is he white like you? And I say, well, 1387 01:07:05.909 --> 01:07:07.909 you know, some people say he was brown like you 1388 01:07:07.989 --> 01:07:09.789 and some people say he was white like me. And 1389 01:07:09.809 --> 01:07:11.690 they said, yeah, yeah, but you've seen him. What did 1390 01:07:11.730 --> 01:07:14.849 he look like? And I said, well, I never saw him. Well, 1391 01:07:14.869 --> 01:07:17.389 your dad saw him. No, my dad never saw him. 1392 01:07:17.409 --> 01:07:19.139 He lived a long time ago. I don't know anyone 1393 01:07:19.159 --> 01:07:21.349 who's ever seen Jesus. And they said, you don't know 1394 01:07:21.409 --> 01:07:23.550 anyone who's ever seen him and you're just talking about 1395 01:07:23.590 --> 01:07:26.050 him the whole time, telling us about him? They said, 1396 01:07:26.090 --> 01:07:30.429 we don't want to hear about this anymore. And that 1397 01:07:30.469 --> 01:07:30.840 was like. 1398 01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:33.110 But you at the time were a believer. You're a 1399 01:07:33.219 --> 01:07:37.559 true believer. Yeah. So when did that start to slip away? 1400 01:07:38.179 --> 01:07:42.079 It started to slip away from two sides. One, I 1401 01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:45.000 was spending a lot of my time in the intellectual 1402 01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:49.199 world and trying to do serious linguistic science. And it 1403 01:07:49.260 --> 01:07:49.960 slipped away. 1404 01:07:49.840 --> 01:07:50.599 Mainly, however. 1405 01:07:51.219 --> 01:07:53.969 by constant interaction with the Pirahã, because as I've gotten 1406 01:07:53.989 --> 01:07:57.150 to know these people over the years, these are really 1407 01:07:57.210 --> 01:08:01.630 smart people. They're very intelligent people. They had me figured 1408 01:08:01.730 -->

01:08:03.869 out before I had them figured out, and they can 1409 01:08:03.909 --> 01:08:06.849 predict my behavior better than I can predict theirs, even today. 1410 01:08:07.550 --> 01:08:10.389 And so, they would come to me and they would 1411 01:08:10.429 --> 01:08:12.150 say this, you know, they'd say, Dan, you keep telling 1412 01:08:12.190 --> 01:08:16.350 us about Jesus, but it seems that only Americans believe 1413 01:08:16.369 --> 01:08:18.329 in Jesus, because we don't know any Brazilians that we've 1414 01:08:18.390 --> 01:08:21.529 ever met that believe in Jesus. So this seems like 1415 01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:24.149 an American thing, but we're not Americans. And then they 1416 01:08:24.189 --> 01:08:26.210 would say, you know, where did you get your evidence? 1417 01:08:26.770 --> 01:08:29.270 And I began to think, you know, these are good questions. 1418 01:08:29.329 --> 01:08:31.710 I can't just throw these questions off. What is my evidence? 1419 01:08:32.109 --> 01:08:34.350 You know, I went to Bible school. I've been surrounded 1420 01:08:34.390 --> 01:08:38.590 by Christians. I've surrounded myself by people who believe. And 1421 01:08:38.630 --> 01:08:41.810 this is what happens in linguistic theory or other scientific theories. 1422 01:08:41.829 --> 01:08:45.329 You surround yourself with a community that believes the same thing, 1423 01:08:45.430 --> 01:08:49.029 and pretty soon it's hard for you to consider alternatives. Mm-hmm. 1424 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:53.060 And so I started considering the alternative, and I realized 1425 01:08:54.130 --> 01:08:57.409 you know, I was an atheist back when I, you know, 1426 01:08:57.449 --> 01:09:00.670 met my first wife in front of a Jimi Hendrix concert. 1427 01:09:00.689 --> 01:09:02.649 I was an atheist. And then I became a Christian. 1428 01:09:02.689 --> 01:09:04.859 And then I thought, you know, maybe I was right 1429 01:09:05.319 --> 01:09:10.800 to begin with. And so eventually I told them, I said, 1430 01:09:10.819 --> 01:09:12.439 you know, I don't believe this stuff anymore either. And 1431 01:09:12.479 --> 01:09:14.739 they started laughing. All the guys started laughing. I said, 1432 01:09:14.779 --> 01:09:16.819 why are you? They said, oh, now you're like us, 1433 01:09:17.060 --> 01:09:20.489 you know. But... But then they told me one time, 1434 01:09:20.529 --> 01:09:23.779 they said, you know, from what we understand, Christians don't 1435 01:09:23.859 --> 01:09:27.100 drink and they don't sleep with other women. And, you know, 1436 01:09:27.239 --> 01:09:31.500 we like to do those things. So we're not interested. 1437 01:09:33.149 --> 01:09:36.510 What was convincing for you, though? If you're a true believer, 1438 01:09:36.890 --> 01:09:39.369 you think your path is the right way when you're 1439 01:09:39.409 --> 01:09:42.409 hanging out with these people. What is making you question it? 1440 01:09:42.869 --> 01:09:45.920 Well, several things. One of the most important things was 1441 01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:48.869 that having spent so many years as a Christian, and 1442 01:09:48.930 --> 01:09:51.810 knowing Christians both in the U.S. and missionaries, who are 1443 01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:56.000 the cream of the crop, supposedly, I didn't know anyone 1444 01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:58.859 in the Christian faith who was as well-adjusted, who could 1445 01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:01.199 cope with life as well, who was as satisfied and 1446 01:10:01.220 --> 01:10:04.390 content with their lives as the Pidahan. They were like 1447 01:10:04.430 --> 01:10:08.310 the ultimate Zen masters and the ultimate, you know, if 1448 01:10:08.350 --> 01:10:10.489 you thought, what is Jesus supposed to do for your life? 1449 01:10:11.010 --> 01:10:13.810 They already had it. And I didn't know many Christians 1450 01:10:13.829 --> 01:10:16.560 who did. So first it was quality of the spiritual life. 1451 01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:18.529 They seem to me to have the highest quality of 1452 01:10:18.569 --> 01:10:21.909 spiritual life. So one MIT guy who came down, an 1453 01:10:22.050 --> 01:10:25.609 MIT PhD student, said, these look like the happiest people 1454 01:10:25.649 --> 01:10:28.289 in the world. And I said, well, what kind of 1455 01:10:28.329 --> 01:10:31.960 statement is that? How would you measure who's happiest? He said, well, 1456 01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:34.960 I would spend time, I would see how long they 1457 01:10:35.039 --> 01:10:37.439 smile and laugh every day and compare it to others 1458 01:10:37.500 --> 01:10:40.840 and how much time they spend laughing and smiling. And 1459 01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:43.229 I'll guarantee you, he said, I've never seen a Peter 1460 01:10:43.250 --> 01:10:48.029 Hahn here who's not smiling or laughing at frequently. So 1461 01:10:48.329 --> 01:10:51.149 it was that quality of character and it was also 1462 01:10:51.210 --> 01:10:53.689 just the fact that I began to realize that the 1463 01:10:53.729 --> 01:10:56.880 scientific principles that I've been learning and that I'm applying 1464 01:10:56.909 --> 01:11:01.579 in linguistics almost have to be suspended to apply them 1465 01:11:01.899 --> 01:11:06.899 to the faith. Because, you know, for example, I've heard 1466 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:12.479 a lot of stories of people being healed. But this 1467 01:11:12.539 --> 01:11:16.380 is anecdotal evidence. And I'm not going to deny anybody's experience. 1468 01:11:16.420 --> 01:11:22.039 If you tell me you had inoperable cancer, but now 1469 01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:24.979 you don't, something happened, and I can't tell you what 1470 01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:28.850 it was. But at the same time, there's no statistical 1471 01:11:28.899 --> 01:11:32.829 relevance to that. It's also the case that even when 1472 01:11:32.909 --> 01:11:36.989 I was in Bible school, one of my teachers said, 1473 01:11:37.409 --> 01:11:41.010 I wonder why healers, faith healers, never start with amputees. 1474

01:11:41.770 --> 01:11:44.420 you know. They always start with diseases you can't see, 1475 01:11:44.699 --> 01:11:49.119 like cancer, and explain how it went away. But they 1476 01:11:49.159 --> 01:11:51.859 said also in the Bible, and the Bible itself, you know, 1477 01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:55.000 says this, Jesus not only healed people, he raised them 1478 01:11:55.039 --> 01:11:57.569 from the dead. So if somebody claims to be a 1479 01:11:57.609 --> 01:12:00.930 healer in the same vein as Jesus, I'd like to 1480 01:12:00.970 --> 01:12:04.470 see them start at cemeteries and start raising people from 1481 01:12:04.510 --> 01:12:06.270 the dead. We're not seeing that, and we don't see 1482 01:12:06.329 --> 01:12:10.800 amputees healed. We see things that are sort of subjective experiences. 1483 01:12:10.819 --> 01:12:13.489 So that And I'm not claiming that nobody has a 1484 01:12:13.529 --> 01:12:15.529 right to believe what they believe or that I'm right 1485 01:12:15.569 --> 01:12:17.409 about all these things. But these are the reason this 1486 01:12:17.470 --> 01:12:20.210 is part of the reasoning process that went through my mind. 1487 01:12:20.350 --> 01:12:23.880 And I thought, yeah, I just can't I just can't 1488 01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:27.600 do this anymore. I cannot tell these people to believe 1489 01:12:27.659 --> 01:12:32.119 something that they have reasonable objections against and I don't 1490 01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:35.880 have reasonable answers for. So to me, they made more 1491 01:12:35.939 --> 01:12:36.699 sense than I did. 1492 01:12:37.699 --> 01:12:42.130 Well, there's. so many of these ancient religions that have 1493 01:12:42.310 --> 01:12:44.930 very similar stories to the Jesus story. 1494 01:12:44.989 --> 01:12:46.630 Yes, that's true. 1495 01:12:46.649 --> 01:12:51.270 It seems like a very old story. And I'm of 1496 01:12:51.340 --> 01:12:54.960 the opinion that what you're getting with all of these 1497 01:12:55.039 --> 01:13:01.680 religious texts is there were some events and there's some 1498 01:13:01.760 --> 01:13:05.069 sort of a documentation of this events, but it's very 1499 01:13:05.550 --> 01:13:10.220 hard to figure out what exactly happened. Like for instance, 1500 01:13:11.100 --> 01:13:15.479 Paul never met Jesus. When most people find that out, 1501 01:13:15.500 --> 01:13:18.100 they go, wait, what? So all that stuff that Jesus said, 1502 01:13:18.460 --> 01:13:22.159 Paul's writing down and well, how does Paul know this? 1503 01:13:22.630 --> 01:13:24.930 And then you go, oh, well, Paul met Jesus in 1504 01:13:24.970 --> 01:13:28.939 a dream. Like, hold the fuck on. Right. 1505 01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:31.880 See, ironically, the Pentecost might actually take that as evidence. 1506 01:13:31.939 --> 01:13:34.579 Right. But... I mean, Jesus came back to their camp 1507 01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:35.239 as a fast forward. 1508 01:13:35.260 --> 01:13:39.199 But we said, you know, I learned in Bible school 1509 01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:42.229 that all the apostles had to have met Jesus. And 1510 01:13:42.279 --> 01:13:44.250 Paul was an apostle, therefore he had to have met Jesus. 1511 01:13:44.310 --> 01:13:46.010 And so I said, well, when did he meet Jesus? 1512 01:13:46.029 --> 01:13:48.310 And they said, on the road to Damascus. He had 1513 01:13:48.369 --> 01:13:50.710 the revelation of Jesus on the road to Damascus, so 1514 01:13:50.729 --> 01:13:51.109 he met him. 1515 01:13:51.850 --> 01:13:53.260 But... It's tricky. 1516 01:13:53.500 --> 01:13:53.979 It's tricky. 1517 01:13:54.140 --> 01:13:59.510 It's tricky. It's also, again, when you get especially to 1518 01:13:59.550 --> 01:14:05.170 the Old Testament, like what were they documenting? What are 1519 01:14:05.210 --> 01:14:11.430 these events? What happened there? There's some stories that you say, 1520 01:14:11.670 --> 01:14:14.130 like the flood story, for example. Boy, there's a lot 1521 01:14:14.149 --> 01:14:15.899 of those. There's a lot of those in all sorts 1522 01:14:15.939 --> 01:14:19.539 of ancient religions. It seems to be some sort of 1523 01:14:19.600 --> 01:14:23.310 a historical record. of some sort of a catastrophe. Right. 1524 01:14:24.470 --> 01:14:26.300 All the other stuff that's attached to it, you just 1525 01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:29.760 got to go, I'm not sure what this means. Right. 1526 01:14:29.840 --> 01:14:31.520 You know, when I was a little boy, you know, 1527 01:14:31.560 --> 01:14:33.239 my mother died when I was very young, but when 1528 01:14:33.260 --> 01:14:34.680 I was a little boy, we would drive up from 1529 01:14:34.819 --> 01:14:36.920 Imperial Valley, California to San Diego, and you've got to 1530 01:14:36.960 --> 01:14:40.569 go through the mountains. And there's this line of white 1531 01:14:40.630 --> 01:14:43.090 stones that I noticed near the top of the mountains. 1532 01:14:43.630 --> 01:14:45.989 And I said, you know, what caused that? And my 1533 01:14:46.029 --> 01:14:49.489 mother said, the flood. And I thought, Well, that makes sense. 1534 01:14:49.649 --> 01:14:54.680 It must be the flood. I'm like seven. And so 1535 01:14:54.989 --> 01:14:57.079 some of this stuff gets started this way, and it 1536 01:14:57.119 --> 01:14:57.699 becomes truth. 1537 01:14:58.180 --> 01:15:00.479 Well, I mean, it's certainly when you're talking about a 1538 01:15:00.539 --> 01:15:06.220 time thousands of years ago where just the ability to 1539 01:15:06.340 --> 01:15:09.840 read was very limited, and then you're translating things from 1540 01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:13.550 languages that we don't even speak anymore. It gets real 1541 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:16.189 squirrely when you try to figure out what these events 1542 01:15:16.390 --> 01:15:22.859 actually were that they were documenting. It's– having a belief system, 1543 01:15:22.960 --> 01:15:24.539 I think there's a lot of value to it. I 1544 01:15:24.579 --> 01:15:27.899 think it gives you a

moral scaffolding, gives you structure 1545 01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:30.479 in your life, and that alone is like super beneficial 1546 01:15:30.899 --> 01:15:32.859 to people. And the people that I know that are 1547 01:15:32.979 --> 01:15:36.739 like true Christians, really follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, 1548 01:15:37.119 --> 01:15:38.859 they're some of the nicest people I've ever met. Right. 1549 01:15:38.890 --> 01:15:41.649 I think there's really great benefit to that. The problem 1550 01:15:41.670 --> 01:15:46.210 is like what are we saying here? You know, what exactly, 1551 01:15:46.270 --> 01:15:48.550 like do you, the Adam and Eve one, it's like, okay, 1552 01:15:48.689 --> 01:15:51.210 what do you think happened? Do you think there's two people? 1553 01:15:51.369 --> 01:15:53.130 That's the only two people on earth? And then where 1554 01:15:53.149 --> 01:15:55.550 do the other people come from? The brothers and sisters 1555 01:15:55.609 --> 01:15:57.789 just have sex with each other? Right. What? 1556 01:15:58.369 --> 01:16:02.300 Yeah, I mean, evolution explains that obviously very well. But 1557 01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:04.800 Adam and Eve, you know, I remember when my mother 1558 01:16:04.859 --> 01:16:09.199 told me the story of eating the apple and betraying God. 1559 01:16:09.819 --> 01:16:14.319 And Adam is hiding out and God says, where are you? 1560 01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:17.380 And I asked my mother, I said, I thought God 1561 01:16:17.420 --> 01:16:19.779 knew everything. Why is he asking him where he is? 1562 01:16:19.819 --> 01:16:22.439 I don't understand that. And she said, well, he wants 1563 01:16:22.460 --> 01:16:25.399 him to confess it. Well, there's always that kind of answer. 1564 01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:27.579 You can always give that kind of answer. But we, 1565 01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:29.960 you know, you don't have to focus on religion. You 1566 01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:33.409 can even go to paleoanthropology and you can look at, 1567 01:16:33.819 --> 01:16:36.869 are there 20 species of Homo that used to exist 1568 01:16:36.909 --> 01:16:40.810 in the past or more? Or were there just three, Erectus, Neanderthal, 1569 01:16:41.289 --> 01:16:45.029 and Sapiens? And what does it mean to be a species? 1570 01:16:45.630 --> 01:16:48.380 And how can we really prove some of that stuff? 1571 01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:53.100 Before the work of Svante Paibo and decoding the DNA, 1572 01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:58.279 the genome of ancient creatures doing this thing that people 1573 01:16:58.300 --> 01:17:01.819 thought was impossible, that was speculation. It was really hard 1574 01:17:01.859 --> 01:17:06.399 to tell. And there were a lot of controversies. And 1575 01:17:06.460 --> 01:17:09.359 now we can look at the genetic record and we 1576 01:17:09.390 --> 01:17:11.750 can look at the genome and But that still doesn't 1577 01:17:11.789 --> 01:17:15.319 tell us everything. So a lot of straight history and 1578 01:17:15.359

--> 01:17:19.840 a lot of paleoanthropology and paleoarchaeology, all of these things 1579 01:17:20.420 --> 01:17:26.859 always involve, as any theory does, speculation. You're guessing and 1580 01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:30.010 then trying to test your guess. And some things are 1581 01:17:30.069 --> 01:17:33.909 easier to test than other things. And so science is 1582 01:17:33.989 --> 01:17:38.310 a community of people who believe they can work towards 1583 01:17:38.369 --> 01:17:40.859 the truth, but the only way to do that is 1584 01:17:40.920 --> 01:17:43.319 to have good guesses and know how to test them 1585 01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:47.029 and be willing to admit that you're wrong and then 1586 01:17:47.090 --> 01:17:51.590 move on to the next best guess. Right. And every 1587 01:17:51.630 --> 01:17:54.229 scientist recognizes this, but in practice. 1588 01:17:54.409 --> 01:17:57.609 It's really hard. Well, it's certainly hard if you're also 1589 01:17:57.649 --> 01:17:58.789 a fundamentalist Christian. 1590 01:17:59.029 --> 01:18:00.220 Oh, yeah. That makes it much harder. 1591 01:18:00.229 --> 01:18:02.760 Because then you're living in conflict all the time. Right. 1592 01:18:02.779 --> 01:18:04.399 You believe a guy came back from the dead, but 1593 01:18:04.500 --> 01:18:05.720 show me proof for everything else. 1594 01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:10.000 Yeah. You believe in miracles, but they certainly can't be produced. 1595 01:18:10.659 --> 01:18:11.239 on demand. 1596 01:18:11.270 --> 01:18:14.649 You also believe that people tell the truth. That's, that's 1597 01:18:14.729 --> 01:18:16.390 part of the problem. Part of the problem with all 1598 01:18:16.430 --> 01:18:20.449 this stuff is like, look, the Bible condones slavery, talks 1599 01:18:20.489 --> 01:18:25.689 about slavery in multiple passages. Yeah. Um, that's a person thing. 1600 01:18:25.750 --> 01:18:26.590 That's a people thing. 1601 01:18:26.869 --> 01:18:27.050 Right. 1602 01:18:27.189 --> 01:18:27.430 That's. 1603 01:18:28.489 --> 01:18:31.210 And the Bible talks about, um, all sorts of things that, 1604 01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:35.159 you know, we don't, uh, agree with, uh, today, but 1605 01:18:35.180 --> 01:18:38.539 we try to, um, interpret it in such a way 1606 01:18:38.619 --> 01:18:39.520 that we can live with it. 1607 01:18:39.659 --> 01:18:40.720 Right, exactly. 1608 01:18:41.300 --> 01:18:43.750 You know, so God, I mean, if you read anything 1609 01:18:43.789 --> 01:18:46.869 by Mark Twain about God, which is not only brilliant 1610 01:18:46.930 --> 01:18:48.680 but funny, you know. 1611 01:18:48.689 --> 01:18:49.500 Right. 1612 01:18:50.989 --> 01:18:54.800 Just makes fun of the whole notion that— It. 1613 01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:57.260 Says religion started when the first con man made the 1614 01:18:57.300 --> 01:18:57.840 first sucker. 1615 01:18:58.300 --> 01:19:01.600 Yeah. And, you know, how many germs— he has this story 1616 01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:04.579 about Noah's Ark, about how Noah's family had to be 1617 01:19:04.739 --> 01:19:09.000 so infested with germs so they could survive the flood, 1618 01:19:09.439 --> 01:19:12.880 you know. When you stop and think about it, I mean, like, 1619 01:19:13.899 --> 01:19:17.720 you know, the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat, 1620 01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:20.479 and then all these creatures had to boogie on down 1621 01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:24.770 to Australia almost immediately. And so you get these stories, 1622 01:19:24.810 --> 01:19:27.010 and people don't want to talk about those things. They say, well, 1623 01:19:27.189 --> 01:19:28.420 I don't know how God did it. 1624 01:19:28.770 --> 01:19:32.010 I think there was an event, and I think this 1625 01:19:32.430 --> 01:19:36.229 version of it, this doctrine that you're supposed to adhere to, 1626 01:19:37.319 --> 01:19:43.779 is woefully uninformed about the actual, like, real facts of 1627 01:19:43.819 --> 01:19:46.189 the event. I don't think anybody could possibly know, but 1628 01:19:46.210 --> 01:19:49.149 I think when you have the Epic of Gilgamesh, which 1629 01:19:49.409 --> 01:19:52.590 mirrors the story of Noah's Ark, which mirrors the story 1630 01:19:52.710 --> 01:19:56.489 of other religions that have similar flood myths or flood stories, 1631 01:19:56.930 --> 01:19:59.949 it's probably something happened. Yeah, it's probably one of the 1632 01:20:00.010 --> 01:20:00.750 things that happened. 1633 01:20:01.670 --> 01:20:06.279 Right. I mean, you can tell people It would be 1634 01:20:06.380 --> 01:20:09.779 intellectually dishonest to tell people that all the claims of 1635 01:20:09.819 --> 01:20:12.039 their religion are false. How do you know that? You 1636 01:20:12.079 --> 01:20:15.130 don't know that. And I used to tell Christians, I said, 1637 01:20:15.189 --> 01:20:18.189 you know, when I was a Christian, the best evidence 1638 01:20:18.250 --> 01:20:20.930 for God is what he's done in your life. And 1639 01:20:21.229 --> 01:20:23.229 are you living a better life? And if you're not 1640 01:20:23.270 --> 01:20:24.970 living a better life, then why are you saying that 1641 01:20:25.010 --> 01:20:28.510 he saved you? And if you can't live a more 1642 01:20:28.630 --> 01:20:33.060 moral life than people who don't know Christ, then what 1643 01:20:33.100 --> 01:20:35.630 are you saying? You've claimed that he changed your life 1644 01:20:35.649 --> 01:20:37.869 for the good, but you're not living a life for 1645 01:20:37.890 --> 01:20:40.720 the good. You know, I went to work in construction 1646 01:20:40.739 --> 01:20:44.640 when I was still in high school for a Christian contractor. 1647 01:20:45.340 --> 01:20:47.880 And I was in the union. I joined the laborers union, 1648 01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:50.159 which meant that as a hod carrier, that's the hardest 1649 01:20:50.189 --> 01:20:53.569 job I ever did, that you got paid $ 8. 25 an hour. 1650 01:20:53.590 --> 01:20:54.750 And this is 1968.

And that was a lot of 1651 01:20:54.770 --> 01:20:55.909 money in 1968. And the guy told me when I 1652 01:20:55.930 --> 01:21:02.960 got hired, he said, The union says I got to 1653 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:05.140 pay $ 8. 25 an hour, but I'm not going to pay 1654 01:21:05.159 --> 01:21:06.899 you that. I'm going to write you down as only 1655 01:21:06.960 --> 01:21:09.039 working four hours a day, but you're going to work eight. 1656 01:21:09.970 --> 01:21:11.729 And that's how he got around it. And I thought, 1657 01:21:12.850 --> 01:21:15.489 this guy's a Christian, and he's lying on these forms 1658 01:21:15.609 --> 01:21:18.829 and on his taxes. And he's going to church. And 1659 01:21:19.670 --> 01:21:22.460 I got the job through my Christian missionary father-in-law who 1660 01:21:22.500 --> 01:21:26.300 knew this guy. And I saw that happening time and 1661 01:21:26.359 --> 01:21:31.170 time again. So very often, unfortunately, people who claim to 1662 01:21:31.229 --> 01:21:34.329 be religious and follow the commandments of Jesus, which are 1663 01:21:34.369 --> 01:21:37.109 much more difficult to follow than the commandments of the 1664 01:21:37.170 --> 01:21:41.140 Old Testament because they affect your thoughts and not just 1665 01:21:41.199 --> 01:21:47.000 your overt action. When you don't see consistency, the answer 1666 01:21:47.039 --> 01:21:49.699 could be, well, we're just humans. We're not perfect. And 1667 01:21:49.739 --> 01:21:53.239 that's true. But why doesn't the Holy Spirit that you 1668 01:21:53.310 --> 01:21:55.510 say you believe in make a bigger difference in your 1669 01:21:55.550 --> 01:21:58.130 life than he does in Joe Schmo down the street 1670 01:21:58.539 --> 01:22:01.960 who doesn't claim anything, and he's leading a more moral 1671 01:22:02.000 --> 01:22:02.699 life than you are. 1672 01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:04.460 Especially if you're robbing laborers. 1673 01:22:04.859 --> 01:22:05.560 Yeah, exactly. 1674 01:22:05.979 --> 01:22:07.079 And lying on your taxes. 1675 01:22:07.319 --> 01:22:07.729 Yeah. 1676 01:22:08.149 --> 01:22:12.829 And so when you're with a pitaha, they live a 1677 01:22:12.869 --> 01:22:17.090 subsistence lifestyle. Right. And there's been a lot of evidence 1678 01:22:17.270 --> 01:22:24.380 that subsistence lifestyles are some of the Most compatible lifestyles 1679 01:22:24.659 --> 01:22:28.800 in terms of like people's happiness and peace and having 1680 01:22:28.859 --> 01:22:35.039 like a sense of meaning. Like your life is wrapped 1681 01:22:35.100 --> 01:22:38.279 around the gathering of food and community and spending time together. 1682 01:22:38.520 --> 01:22:41.090 And they're the happiest people in the world. Right. 1683 01:22:41.350 --> 01:22:43.489 You know, I monitor them for a while. How many 1684 01:22:43.550 --> 01:22:46.590 hours a week does a hunter work? And I came 1685 01:22:46.649 --> 01:22:49.850 up with about 15 or 20 hours a week. Yeah. 1686 01:22:50.109 --> 01:22:51.670 Unless it's not going well. Yeah. 1687 01:22:51.770 --> 01:22:54.229 And then, yeah, like now they're doing it all the time. 1688 01:22:54.260 --> 01:22:57.619 But when the fish are jumping, it's that. And then 1689 01:22:57.640 --> 01:22:58.760 so what do you do with the rest of your time? 1690 01:22:58.960 --> 01:23:01.380 You lay around the fire and tell jokes and talk 1691 01:23:01.420 --> 01:23:03.760 to people and play with your kids. You know, the 1692 01:23:03.800 --> 01:23:05.220 men love to play with everybody. 1693 01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:09.399 They're in pure subsistence too because they're not even preserving food. Right. 1694 01:23:09.680 --> 01:23:12.340 If they don't find food today, they go hungry today. 1695 01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:15.819 Have you ever seen the Werner Herzog documentary, Happy People? 1696 01:23:16.720 --> 01:23:19.300 I haven't seen that. I did meet him once, but 1697 01:23:19.739 --> 01:23:24.470 I haven't seen that documentary. He's really big into these 1698 01:23:24.550 --> 01:23:26.069 kinds of societies. I know that. 1699 01:23:26.210 --> 01:23:28.170 That's what Happy People is about. It's about these people 1700 01:23:28.189 --> 01:23:31.550 that live in Siberia. Right. There are hunters and trappers 1701 01:23:31.649 --> 01:23:34.649 that live in Siberia, and they're all happy. Right. Yeah, 1702 01:23:34.770 --> 01:23:38.510 and they basically just spend most of their time gathering food, 1703 01:23:38.789 --> 01:23:40.770 gathering food and then spending time with the communities. 1704 01:23:41.029 --> 01:23:43.829 Yeah. Well, the documentary that was made about the Pitaha 1705 01:23:43.850 --> 01:23:48.189 by the Smithsonian and a couple of other institutions. It's 1706 01:23:48.229 --> 01:23:52.569 called The Grammar of Happiness. Because the film crew that 1707 01:23:52.609 --> 01:23:55.569 went with me, it was very small, like three people, 1708 01:23:55.869 --> 01:23:59.020 but they were deeply impressed by what they saw and 1709 01:23:59.029 --> 01:24:01.300 the level of happiness. And all the psychologists that I've 1710 01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:05.039 taken and linguists have also been very impressed by the level. 1711 01:24:05.140 --> 01:24:07.539 If they get past the heat and they get past 1712 01:24:07.659 --> 01:24:12.609 the confrontation with your body and the pita hump don't 1713 01:24:12.649 --> 01:24:14.789 have outhouses. They don't have, you know, I mean, if 1714 01:24:14.810 --> 01:24:17.029 somebody needs to take a dump, they walk off 10 1715 01:24:17.029 --> 01:24:21.210 feet into the bush and do it. And so we 1716 01:24:21.250 --> 01:24:21.590 have to have. 1717 01:24:21.609 --> 01:24:24.270 Do they have toilet paper? No. What do they do? 1718 01:24:24.869 --> 01:24:25.789 A stick or leaves. 1719 01:24:26.010 --> 01:24:26.770 Oh, sticks. 1720 01:24:26.850 --> 01:24:29.569 Yeah. Hey. Or if you have corn cobs, that's great, 1721 01:24:29.590 --> 01:24:31.590 but they

don't have corn cobs. 1722 01:24:31.630 --> 01:24:33.069 Good Lord. Yeah. 1723 01:24:33.130 --> 01:24:36.170 So, so, yeah, but it's just not a big deal. 1724 01:24:36.210 --> 01:24:39.489 They grow up that way. It's just a function, you know? 1725 01:24:39.550 --> 01:24:41.250 And so you ask them things about life. What happens 1726 01:24:41.289 --> 01:24:44.229 to you after you die? What do you mean? Well, 1727 01:24:44.270 --> 01:24:48.050 when you're dead, what happens? Well, you're dead. And so 1728 01:24:48.069 --> 01:24:50.220 there's like a dead monkey that somebody just brought back 1729 01:24:50.229 --> 01:24:51.920 and they're going to eat. And he says, he's dead. 1730 01:24:52.180 --> 01:24:55.699 What else is there? Why are you asking this question? 1731 01:24:55.960 --> 01:24:59.140 We die, we die. And they don't fear death. They 1732 01:24:59.159 --> 01:25:02.479 don't make up a story to make themselves not fear death. 1733 01:25:02.859 --> 01:25:04.060 Were there a lot of them injured? 1734 01:25:04.880 --> 01:25:09.050 Oh, yeah. They live a violent life. I have people 1735 01:25:09.109 --> 01:25:12.289 bitten by snakes, cut I had people who split their 1736 01:25:12.310 --> 01:25:15.170 hand almost in two with a machete, run arrows all 1737 01:25:15.189 --> 01:25:18.840 the way up their arm, step on sticks that go 1738 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:20.729 all the way through their foot. I mean, these are 1739 01:25:20.770 --> 01:25:23.359 people who are naked running through the jungle, and they 1740 01:25:23.399 --> 01:25:30.380 get scratches. If you get bitten by a snake that's hemotoxic, 1741 01:25:30.460 --> 01:25:36.100 like a jararaca, I don't know what it is. It's 1742 01:25:36.119 --> 01:25:38.819 a bushmaster. When you get bit by one of those things, 1743 01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:41.899 even if you survive, a lot of the flesh is 1744 01:25:41.939 --> 01:25:44.300 going to come off whatever they bit. So you see 1745 01:25:44.359 --> 01:25:46.880 people with one leg normal and one leg that looks 1746 01:25:46.920 --> 01:25:49.380 like bone because it's basically bone with a little bit 1747 01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:52.319 of muscle covered in skin because the flesh all fell 1748 01:25:52.380 --> 01:25:57.260 off after the snake bite. So they know what it 1749 01:25:57.319 --> 01:25:59.279 is to suffer, and they're tough. You know, if you 1750 01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:02.399 get a toothache, how do you fix it? Well, if 1751 01:26:02.500 --> 01:26:04.159 I'm there, I have some things that can help with 1752 01:26:04.180 --> 01:26:07.699 the pain, or I can pull the tooth. But most 1753 01:26:07.729 --> 01:26:10.310 of the time, it rots out. That's how they deal 1754 01:26:10.350 --> 01:26:14.039 with it. So they learn, you know, I was talking 1755 01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:17.439 to a woman one time, you know, really for, you know, 1756 01:26:17.460 --> 01:26:20.399 pina ha, looking very feminine looking woman. And she gets 1757 01:26:20.500 --> 01:26:22.479 bit by a wasp on the face while I'm talking 1758 01:26:22.520 --> 01:26:25.500 to her. And she pulls the stinger out and she doesn't, 1759 01:26:25.760 --> 01:26:27.960 it doesn't stop her conversation. And I've been stung by 1760 01:26:27.979 --> 01:26:30.279 those wasps and I know they hurt like hell. And 1761 01:26:30.430 --> 01:26:31.430 I said, didn't that hurt? 1762 01:26:32.270 --> 01:26:32.350 Yeah. 1763 01:26:32.369 --> 01:26:35.550 Well, you didn't say anything. She says, I'm not a baby. 1764 01:26:35.569 --> 01:26:38.890 You know, so this is the way they are. 1765 01:26:38.909 --> 01:26:38.979 Wow. 1766 01:26:39.500 --> 01:26:41.680 From the time they're children, they learn to deal with pain. 1767 01:26:41.699 --> 01:26:43.840 They learn to be tough. In fact, they have an 1768 01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:46.779 expression for that. He wants to be hard. And that 1769 01:26:46.859 --> 01:26:50.569 means you deliberately sleep sometimes less than you need. You 1770 01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:53.529 go hungry on purpose and you put yourself in hard 1771 01:26:53.569 --> 01:26:56.430 situations because you want to be tough. Because that's what 1772 01:26:56.470 --> 01:26:57.409 the environment demands. 1773 01:26:58.050 --> 01:27:00.609 So they build their resilience on purpose. 1774 01:27:00.770 --> 01:27:01.010 Yes. 1775 01:27:02.060 --> 01:27:05.800 Voluntarily. Well, I would imagine that's like the most important 1776 01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:08.079 thing to have. If you're running around naked in the jungle, 1777 01:27:08.119 --> 01:27:08.779 you have to be tough. 1778 01:27:09.050 --> 01:27:14.369 Right. You have to be. I go barefoot sometimes in 1779 01:27:14.390 --> 01:27:19.229 the village. You can get parasites that way, but I 1780 01:27:19.260 --> 01:27:22.500 do it anyway. But when I go to the jungle, 1781 01:27:22.520 --> 01:27:25.260 I always put on shoes because my feet can't take 1782 01:27:25.579 --> 01:27:28.479 all the thorns and everything. And theirs are covered with 1783 01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:32.050 a whole layer of callus all around their foot. 1784 01:27:32.510 --> 01:27:34.409 They have those crazy splayed out toes as well. 1785 01:27:34.430 --> 01:27:37.130 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the way feet are supposed 1786 01:27:37.170 --> 01:27:39.069 to look, really. Right. You know, ours don't look that 1787 01:27:39.109 --> 01:27:42.069 way because we protect them. But their feet are tough, 1788 01:27:42.590 --> 01:27:45.210 you know. Their hands are tough. Their skin is tough. 1789 01:27:45.609 --> 01:27:48.319 It's like leather. Even a little kid, their little kids, 1790 01:27:48.859 --> 01:27:52.220 rather than crawl, they scoot around on their butt. And 1791 01:27:52.779 --> 01:27:54.119 so you pick a little kid up and you look 1792 01:27:54.140 --> 01:27:57.659 at their butt and it's just callous. It's just solid callous. 1793 01:27:58.180 --> 01:27:59.279 And these kids are tough. 1794 01:28:01.340 -->

01:28:01.500 But. 1795 01:28:04.470 --> 01:28:06.529 By their standards, they're very gentle to their kids. I 1796 01:28:06.569 --> 01:28:08.640 had a guy with me one time, and he was 1797 01:28:08.649 --> 01:28:10.760 trying to sleep at night, and a baby was screaming 1798 01:28:10.819 --> 01:28:13.739 all night. And he said, why don't they tell that 1799 01:28:13.779 --> 01:28:16.739 baby to shut up? And I said, why? I said, 1800 01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:18.720 they don't need to tell it to shut up. That's 1801 01:28:18.739 --> 01:28:20.680 just part of life. They don't have a schedule to 1802 01:28:20.699 --> 01:28:22.680 keep tomorrow. He said, well, what would happen if I 1803 01:28:22.720 --> 01:28:24.699 went over and swatted it on the behind? I said, 1804 01:28:24.720 --> 01:28:27.300 they'd kill you. They'd kill me? I said, yeah, you 1805 01:28:27.319 --> 01:28:29.810 don't hit kids. They don't believe in hitting kids. 1806 01:28:30.229 --> 01:28:32.560 Swat a baby to get it to— does he think that's 1807 01:28:32.600 --> 01:28:33.800 how babies stop screaming? 1808 01:28:34.659 --> 01:28:35.079 I don't know. 1809 01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:36.619 I mean— Does he have any kids? 1810 01:28:37.840 --> 01:28:40.810 I don't think this guy did, but Christian— often believe, 1811 01:28:41.229 --> 01:28:44.430 really believe, spare the rod and spoil the child. And 1812 01:28:44.449 --> 01:28:47.130 they believe very much in corporal— Back then at least, right? Yeah, 1813 01:28:47.170 --> 01:28:51.739 back then. I don't know today. But, you know, so 1814 01:28:51.779 --> 01:28:55.430 the Bidahav never believed this. They don't accept it. 1815 01:28:56.079 --> 01:28:59.949 Well, I think they're probably correct. It is interesting how 1816 01:29:00.029 --> 01:29:03.350 those people are happier. Like we've done something to ourselves 1817 01:29:03.449 --> 01:29:07.890 by forcing ourselves into cities and jobs and constant stress 1818 01:29:07.930 --> 01:29:11.409 and bills and taxes and all these external things that 1819 01:29:11.449 --> 01:29:14.960 we've attached to our lives that we think are 100% necessary. 1820 01:29:15.579 --> 01:29:20.300 Don't bring anybody any happier. Don't bring anybody any more happiness. 1821 01:29:20.739 --> 01:29:24.399 In fact, make you way more miserable, make you susceptible 1822 01:29:24.500 --> 01:29:26.479 to a bunch of stress-related illnesses. 1823 01:29:26.500 --> 01:29:29.810 Yeah. I've had friends visit me in the jungle. I mean, 1824 01:29:29.909 --> 01:29:34.600 researchers who are friends. And they'll say things like, I've 1825 01:29:34.640 --> 01:29:37.520 never seen you so relaxed. You know, you seem tense 1826 01:29:37.539 --> 01:29:39.479 when you're at the university, but down here you just 1827 01:29:39.500 --> 01:29:42.619 seem totally laid back. And I said, well, I didn't 1828 01:29:42.680 --> 01:29:45.340 notice it, but that makes perfect sense to me because 1829 01:29:45.399 --> 01:29:47.359 all these people are laid back. There's pina ha that 1830 01:29:47.380 --> 01:29:49.180 I go to talk to the guy and I find 1831 01:29:49.220 --> 01:29:52.239 myself nodding off. And I'm not even sleepy when I 1832 01:29:52.279 --> 01:29:55.060 go over there. But he's just so laid back and 1833 01:29:55.100 --> 01:29:59.250 talks so calmly and softly. and telling jokes and things 1834 01:29:59.689 --> 01:30:00.689 that it just puts me to sleep. 1835 01:30:00.989 --> 01:30:02.850 God, it's such a bummer that those people have to 1836 01:30:02.890 --> 01:30:03.510 struggle now. 1837 01:30:03.829 --> 01:30:06.210 Yeah, it's terrible. 1838 01:30:08.060 --> 01:30:09.579 What do they hunt? What do they eat? 1839 01:30:10.699 --> 01:30:13.420 Seventy percent of their diet before they started having river 1840 01:30:13.479 --> 01:30:17.800 problems was fish. So the average diet of a Pidaha 1841 01:30:17.960 --> 01:30:23.159 family is fish and water and jungle nuts and things 1842 01:30:23.199 --> 01:30:27.689 you get from the jungle. Hunter-gatherers, which they are, have... 1843 01:30:27.840 --> 01:30:32.420 healthier diets than agriculturalists. Because, you know, we had this 1844 01:30:32.699 --> 01:30:37.630 outbreak of disease from lettuce recently in this country. They 1845 01:30:37.670 --> 01:30:39.550 don't grow vegetables, so they're never going to get that 1846 01:30:39.569 --> 01:30:42.170 kind of thing. They don't get that in naturally occurring 1847 01:30:42.229 --> 01:30:43.489 things out in the jungle. 1848 01:30:43.729 --> 01:30:43.970 Right. 1849 01:30:44.229 --> 01:30:48.850 So their diets are healthier. They're eating protein. I know, 1850 01:30:48.890 --> 01:30:51.949 for example, that I could take any Pitaham man out 1851 01:30:51.989 --> 01:30:54.659 of the jungle at random, and if I weigh him, 1852 01:30:55.100 --> 01:30:58.789 he's going to be 155 pounds. He's going to have 1853 01:30:59.310 --> 01:31:04.189 about a 25-inch waist, 26. He's going to have about 1854 01:31:04.189 --> 01:31:08.289 4% body fat, and he's just going to be lean, 1855 01:31:08.510 --> 01:31:13.149 mean machine. And they do try to harden themselves, but 1856 01:31:13.189 --> 01:31:14.970 that's just what the life does to you. 1857 01:31:16.149 --> 01:31:18.409 But they're not overweight. They're not dealing with obesity. 1858 01:31:18.489 --> 01:31:25.399 No, you're never. Only when outsiders, you know, representatives of 1859 01:31:25.420 --> 01:31:27.609 the Brazilian government thought it would be good to give 1860 01:31:27.649 --> 01:31:30.100 them something to rely on. So they brought in a 1861 01:31:30.109 --> 01:31:33.060 lot of rice and they started letting the people feed. 1862 01:31:33.359 --> 01:31:35.689 The people don't grow rice, but the government would supply it. 1863 01:31:36.079 --> 01:31:39.039 So now all of a sudden you see people overweight 1864 01:31:40.100 --> 01:31:42.739 because they're eating starch, which they never used to eat 1865

01:31:42.779 --> 01:31:45.600 that much of. Or I took a dentist in once 1866 01:31:45.729 --> 01:31:49.590 about 25 years ago and we inspected the mouth of 1867 01:31:49.770 --> 01:31:53.609 every living pitaha and not one cavity. He was disappointed. 1868 01:31:53.630 --> 01:31:54.550 He said, I thought I was going to be able 1869 01:31:54.569 --> 01:31:57.529 to do some free dental work here, and nobody has 1870 01:31:57.569 --> 01:32:01.779 a cavity. Well, then somebody introduced sugar cane into their 1871 01:32:01.840 --> 01:32:06.020 fields from the outside world, and now it's almost 100% cavities. 1872 01:32:06.140 --> 01:32:09.000 Everybody has cavities because they eat sugar cane. 1873 01:32:09.579 --> 01:32:09.899 Wow. 1874 01:32:10.020 --> 01:32:12.359 So you keep away the sweets, you keep away the starch, 1875 01:32:13.020 --> 01:32:15.699 and you get healthier people. This is just living proof 1876 01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:19.590 of what we often read about diets, but that we're 1877 01:32:19.619 --> 01:32:22.670 so tempted by that we don't normally follow. 1878 01:32:22.689 --> 01:32:25.170 I heard another issue with them is when they get 1879 01:32:25.270 --> 01:32:26.250 introduced to soda. 1880 01:32:27.380 --> 01:32:31.050 Yeah, that's bad. Yeah. Also whiskey, but that's a different matter. 1881 01:32:31.310 --> 01:32:31.590 Sure. 1882 01:32:31.609 --> 01:32:35.060 They're both bad. Soda is, yeah, I mean, they love it. 1883 01:32:35.069 --> 01:32:38.609 They call it, you know, sweet water. And they will 1884 01:32:38.630 --> 01:32:40.489 drink the hell out of that. If they got, you know, 1885 01:32:40.510 --> 01:32:42.170 five gallons, they'll drink it all. I had a guy 1886 01:32:42.250 --> 01:32:45.630 once who wove a basket for me. And I said, 1887 01:32:45.789 --> 01:32:48.609 you know, what do you want for it? And he 1888 01:32:48.680 --> 01:32:51.180 knew that I had some canned fruit that I used 1889 01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:53.579 on Sundays for my kids when we were all living there. 1890 01:32:54.140 --> 01:32:56.739 And he said, I want a can of this stuff, 1891 01:32:56.779 --> 01:33:00.590 which is peaches and sweet syrup. And it was a 1892 01:33:00.609 --> 01:33:02.850 big can. And he ate that whole thing. And the 1893 01:33:02.869 --> 01:33:05.750 kids came around. And I've seen guys trade with a boat. 1894 01:33:06.409 --> 01:33:08.489 And they'll get like a kilo of sugar, two and 1895 01:33:08.510 --> 01:33:10.569 a half pounds of sugar. And they just sit down 1896 01:33:10.609 --> 01:33:11.430 with a spoon and eat it. 1897 01:33:11.609 --> 01:33:12.149 Oh, boy. 1898 01:33:12.270 --> 01:33:14.119 And so if they have it, they eat it. And 1899 01:33:14.140 --> 01:33:15.319 if they don't have it, they don't eat it. 1900 01:33:15.319 --> 01:33:16.840 And they have no idea that it's bad for them 1901 01:33:16.859 --> 01:33:18.340 because it tastes good. Why would it be bad? 1902 01:33:18.539 --> 01:33:21.880 Right. You can eat anything you find as a hunter-gatherer. 1903 01:33:22.020 --> 01:33:24.180 And you're not going to have enough of it. To 1904 01:33:24.199 --> 01:33:24.819 be bad for you. 1905 01:33:25.000 --> 01:33:25.260 Right. 1906 01:33:25.500 --> 01:33:27.060 Because you're going to get something else the next day. 1907 01:33:27.359 --> 01:33:29.859 Or like tobacco. I can take in tobacco, but they're 1908 01:33:29.880 --> 01:33:31.739 not going to get addicted to it. They're not going to, 1909 01:33:32.310 --> 01:33:35.109 you know, even when they roll cigarettes, they like them, 1910 01:33:35.189 --> 01:33:37.710 but they only have it like once or twice a year. 1911 01:33:37.770 --> 01:33:40.369 So you don't have to worry about it. You know, 1912 01:33:40.510 --> 01:33:42.170 if they had it all the time, they would have 1913 01:33:42.329 --> 01:33:43.210 serious issues. 1914 01:33:43.850 --> 01:33:46.909 So they've only developed addictions based on what they've been 1915 01:33:46.949 --> 01:33:48.399 introduced from the Western world. 1916 01:33:48.569 --> 01:33:50.770 Right. 100%. 1917 01:33:51.279 --> 01:33:54.479 So tell me about this conversion that you have. Tell 1918 01:33:54.500 --> 01:33:57.420 me about how you, like, what are the steps to 1919 01:33:57.460 --> 01:34:00.180 go from being a true believer, living with the Peter 1920 01:34:00.199 --> 01:34:04.520 Ha and then changing your opinions? How many steps did 1921 01:34:04.560 --> 01:34:04.939 it take? 1922 01:34:05.819 --> 01:34:08.270 It took some practical steps and it took a lot 1923 01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:09.199 of mental steps. 1924 01:34:10.029 --> 01:34:10.649 How much time? 1925 01:34:12.409 --> 01:34:15.189 I would say that I started seriously doubting my faith 1926 01:34:15.489 --> 01:34:21.130 about five or six years into my time. So about 1982, 1983. 1927 01:34:21.130 --> 01:34:22.939 And I did not announce that I was not a 1928 01:34:22.979 --> 01:34:31.420 Christian until 2000. And because Christians were saying things about, 1929 01:34:31.539 --> 01:34:34.060 actually it was 2001, Christians were saying things about the 1930 01:34:34.119 --> 01:34:38.359 war in Iraq, about how the soldiers that we send 1931 01:34:38.420 --> 01:34:42.960 over there are the blessed peacemakers of the gospel. And 1932 01:34:43.319 --> 01:34:47.180 I didn't like that. And so the first step is 1933 01:34:47.380 --> 01:34:50.069 you start to doubt. Then you pray so that you 1934 01:34:50.350 --> 01:34:53.840 won't doubt because the Apostle Thomas said, Lord, I believe. 1935 01:34:53.939 --> 01:34:58.020 Help mine unbelief. But then after a certain point, that 1936 01:34:58.039 --> 01:35:01.739 doesn't work so well. So you start to read literature 1937 01:35:01.859 --> 01:35:05.840 from apologetics, trying to defend these, you know, defend your 1938 01:35:05.899 --> 01:35:08.359 mind against these things that you're thinking. And then you realize, 1939 01:35:08.380 --> 01:35:12.720 I'm not

satisfied with those answers either. So finally, one day, 1940 01:35:13.520 --> 01:35:17.279 you reach the conclusion that I just, I just can't 1941 01:35:17.319 --> 01:35:21.199 do it anymore. I can't sustain this belief. I can't 1942 01:35:21.380 --> 01:35:24.159 pretend that I have something that I'm not. And so 1943 01:35:25.359 --> 01:35:28.619 then eventually I told my wife, I said, I just 1944 01:35:28.649 --> 01:35:31.609 don't believe this stuff anymore. I can't believe it. And 1945 01:35:34.170 --> 01:35:37.029 pretty much instantaneously, she walked out of the house and 1946 01:35:37.050 --> 01:35:40.029 we got a divorce. That was the end of that. Also, 1947 01:35:40.090 --> 01:35:41.989 if you're a Christian missionary and you're getting your income 1948 01:35:42.050 --> 01:35:44.479 from being a missionary, and then you tell people, oh, 1949 01:35:44.539 --> 01:35:46.500 I don't believe anymore, then you're unemployed. 1950 01:35:46.699 --> 01:35:48.500 Did you have any other issues in the marriage other 1951 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:48.979 than that? 1952 01:35:49.920 --> 01:35:52.640 Yeah, it wasn't. That wasn't the only issue. But she 1953 01:35:52.699 --> 01:35:55.439 tracked up all the issues we had to what she 1954 01:35:55.479 --> 01:36:02.600 perceived as my declining faith. Oh, of course. Because, you know, 1955 01:36:04.340 --> 01:36:06.229 I loved rock music before we met. We met at 1956 01:36:06.270 --> 01:36:08.550 a Jimi Hendrix concert, and I went many years without 1957 01:36:08.590 --> 01:36:11.779 listening to rock music. And I love rock music. And 1958 01:36:11.840 --> 01:36:13.680 so I finally started listening to it again. 1959 01:36:14.279 --> 01:36:16.170 And, um, she got upset. 1960 01:36:16.289 --> 01:36:21.010 That was a sign that I was starting to fade away. Um, 1961 01:36:21.630 --> 01:36:24.170 and you know, so, and I'm not a perfect person, 1962 01:36:24.189 --> 01:36:26.609 you know, I would go out with Brazilian friends, uh, 1963 01:36:26.649 --> 01:36:28.659 drinking and that's definitely a no, no. 1964 01:36:29.600 --> 01:36:32.840 Um, and, um, any religion that tries to keep you 1965 01:36:32.859 --> 01:36:36.520 from Hendricks. Yeah. Yeah. Can't be, can't be a real religion. 1966 01:36:36.560 --> 01:36:38.739 My dad said to me when I first became a Christian, 1967 01:36:38.760 --> 01:36:40.939 you know, he was the epitome of an atheist, you know, 1968 01:36:41.050 --> 01:36:45.310 and he's, He said, the one thing about religions is 1969 01:36:45.750 --> 01:36:48.850 they're always trying to beat their own system. They're always 1970 01:36:48.909 --> 01:36:51.170 trying to find an exception so they don't have to 1971 01:36:51.250 --> 01:36:53.750 do the unpleasant things that religion tells them they need 1972 01:36:53.789 --> 01:36:56.609 to do. And I thought, oh, you don't know anything. 1973 01:36:58.149 --> 01:36:59.949 You don't know anything about religion. You've never been in 1974 01:36:59.989

--> 01:37:03.949 part of a church. But it's not entirely false. People 1975 01:37:03.989 --> 01:37:07.949 are always trying to make, you know, it's like another 1976 01:37:07.989 --> 01:37:10.600 expression that comes to mind when you're, If you see 1977 01:37:10.649 --> 01:37:12.880 somebody who says they're a believer and now they start 1978 01:37:12.899 --> 01:37:15.800 doing things you don't think they should do, there are 1979 01:37:15.819 --> 01:37:18.340 two reactions you could have. One is justice and one 1980 01:37:18.380 --> 01:37:21.840 is mercy. And everybody wants to give justice and get 1981 01:37:21.899 --> 01:37:28.170 mercy for their beliefs and for their transgressions. And so 1982 01:37:29.130 --> 01:37:31.850 I was giving myself mercy and my wife was giving 1983 01:37:31.909 --> 01:37:35.170 me justice. But in the end, I realized I'm not 1984 01:37:35.210 --> 01:37:37.640 going to be bound by these rules anymore. I'm just 1985 01:37:37.680 --> 01:37:39.720 going to live my life according to my best lights 1986 01:37:39.819 --> 01:37:42.119 and according to the best decisions. And I'm not going 1987 01:37:42.159 --> 01:37:44.579 to let this book tell me anymore. The ironic thing is, 1988 01:37:44.619 --> 01:37:46.560 you know, I graduated number one in my class at 1989 01:37:46.590 --> 01:37:48.350 a Bible school. So I know the Bible really well. 1990 01:37:49.289 --> 01:37:51.310 And when people try to reconvert me, I've had many 1991 01:37:51.369 --> 01:37:54.329 Christians try to reconvert me. I said, that's not going 1992 01:37:54.350 --> 01:37:56.470 to work, you know, because I know the Bible probably 1993 01:37:56.510 --> 01:37:57.970 better than you do. So you're not going to give 1994 01:37:57.989 --> 01:38:00.689 me a verse I don't know. I said, I'm not 1995 01:38:00.729 --> 01:38:02.689 telling you you're wrong. And I'm not even telling you 1996 01:38:02.729 --> 01:38:04.930 your interpretation is wrong. I'm just saying it doesn't work 1997 01:38:04.970 --> 01:38:09.590 for me. And I can't pretend that it does. Right. 1998 01:38:10.270 --> 01:38:14.920 It's got to be weird to have your beliefs confronted 1999 01:38:15.020 --> 01:38:18.479 by a group of people where as you're learning their language, 2000 01:38:19.300 --> 01:38:24.199 you're realizing that this moral framework and the scaffolding that 2001 01:38:24.229 --> 01:38:28.069 you've only attributed to Christianity and you think that it's 2002 01:38:28.289 --> 01:38:31.409 just Christianity and religion that makes people good people. And 2003 01:38:31.449 --> 01:38:33.779 then here's people that don't have any God. 2004 01:38:34.180 --> 01:38:34.399 Right. 2005 01:38:35.460 --> 01:38:35.600 Yeah. 2006 01:38:35.619 --> 01:38:37.340 So like, you know, you're in a big storm. The 2007 01:38:37.380 --> 01:38:40.819 Amazon has storms in the rainy season. So somebody's house 2008 01:38:40.859 --> 01:38:43.800 blows over because their houses, they're hunter gatherers

and they're 2009 01:38:43.819 --> 01:38:46.569 semi nomadic. So they don't build the best houses. So 2010 01:38:46.670 --> 01:38:49.750 it's pouring rain and somebody's house blows over and they're 2011 01:38:49.789 --> 01:38:52.590 just stuck there in the rain. What is their reaction? 2012 01:38:52.909 --> 01:38:55.829 They start laughing like it's the funniest thing that ever happened. 2013 01:38:56.329 --> 01:38:58.510 And they will go off into other people's huts and 2014 01:38:58.550 --> 01:39:00.329 sleep on the ground or get near the fire or 2015 01:39:00.369 --> 01:39:02.689 they might come to my house, that's very common, and 2016 01:39:02.800 --> 01:39:04.199 want to sleep with me and then the next day 2017 01:39:04.239 --> 01:39:08.380 they'll rebuild it. There's nothing except for fear of immediate 2018 01:39:08.460 --> 01:39:11.619 threat from the outside or from animals that gets them 2019 01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:14.819 to lose their cool. And when they do lose their cool, 2020 01:39:15.949 --> 01:39:20.550 It's not really losing their cool. It is calculated defense. 2021 01:39:21.510 --> 01:39:24.850 They know how to take care of themselves. When I 2022 01:39:24.890 --> 01:39:27.630 mentioned to this guy that they would kill him, I said, 2023 01:39:27.649 --> 01:39:29.609 they kill for a living. Don't forget that. That's how 2024 01:39:29.630 --> 01:39:33.260 they make their living. Every man there, every boy here 2025 01:39:33.649 --> 01:39:36.699 could shoot you through the eye at 50 yards with 2026 01:39:36.760 --> 01:39:39.000 one of those arrows. They're not going to miss. If 2027 01:39:39.020 --> 01:39:42.569 they decide to kill you or me, we're dead. So 2028 01:39:42.909 --> 01:39:45.569 they don't because they make a difference between killing out 2029 01:39:45.590 --> 01:39:49.770 of necessity and killing to murder. But if they think 2030 01:39:49.810 --> 01:39:51.399 they have to defend their family, you're dead. 2031 01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:55.939 But their culture doesn't encourage squabbles. Like they just, they're easygoing. 2032 01:39:56.000 --> 01:39:56.760 They take everything. 2033 01:39:57.439 --> 01:40:00.699 The biggest, if there's a concept of sin among the Pidaha, 2034 01:40:00.859 --> 01:40:03.779 it is anger. You don't raise your voice in anger. 2035 01:40:03.859 --> 01:40:07.619 You don't hit another Pidaha in anger. You know, I 2036 01:40:07.659 --> 01:40:10.479 saw a guy get drunk. When they get alcohol, they 2037 01:40:10.500 --> 01:40:13.029 get drunk. And he took a shotgun that he had 2038 01:40:13.069 --> 01:40:16.199 gotten from a Brazilian and he shot a dog that 2039 01:40:16.239 --> 01:40:20.760 belonged to his brother. And his brother runs up to 2040 01:40:20.779 --> 01:40:23.500 the dog and he's just sobbing because they love their dogs. 2041 01:40:23.560 --> 01:40:26.220 And he's just crying that his dog's dead. And I 2042 01:40:26.260 --> 01:40:27.699 went up to him and I thought, oh God, there's 2043 01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:29.220 going to be some violence here. I got to get 2044 01:40:29.300 --> 01:40:31.199 ready for this. And I said, what are you going 2045 01:40:31.239 --> 01:40:33.739 to do? He said, what do you mean? I said, 2046 01:40:34.020 --> 01:40:35.560 are you going to do anything to your brother? He 2047 01:40:35.579 --> 01:40:38.220 shot your dog. He said, I don't do anything to 2048 01:40:38.260 --> 01:40:40.420 my brother. He's my brother. He shouldn't have shot my dog, 2049 01:40:40.460 --> 01:40:42.920 but he's drunk and his head's not working. You know, 2050 01:40:42.979 --> 01:40:44.640 I miss my dog. I love my dog, but I 2051 01:40:44.680 --> 01:40:46.220 love my brother. I'm not going to hurt my brother. 2052 01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:48.479 So they just don't react that way. 2053 01:40:48.899 --> 01:40:50.960 So do they have punishment for crimes? 2054 01:40:52.270 --> 01:40:55.670 They have punishment if it threatens the survival of the village. 2055 01:40:55.789 --> 01:40:58.869 So there was one young man, a teenager, and I 2056 01:40:58.930 --> 01:41:02.350 talk about him in, um, in both my book, don't 2057 01:41:02.409 --> 01:41:04.109 sleep through our snakes. And in the new one that's 2058 01:41:04.149 --> 01:41:08.409 coming out next year, born of the river, um, who 2059 01:41:08.449 --> 01:41:12.170 was paid in alcohol and a new shotgun to kill 2060 01:41:12.789 --> 01:41:17.689 somebody who was living up the river, who wasn't a pitaha, 2061 01:41:17.949 --> 01:41:21.810 living on the same river. And he killed him. And 2062 01:41:21.850 --> 01:41:25.520 the pitaha saw this as an existential threat to the 2063 01:41:25.560 --> 01:41:28.079 whole community because they knew that the police could come up. 2064 01:41:28.420 --> 01:41:30.720 They knew that soldiers could come up. They knew that 2065 01:41:31.319 --> 01:41:34.680 many pitaha could be killed if this wasn't handled. So 2066 01:41:34.819 --> 01:41:36.359 they didn't hurt him, but they kicked him out of 2067 01:41:36.380 --> 01:41:37.739 the village. He had to live on his own. And 2068 01:41:37.779 --> 01:41:41.220 he died about two months later. He was dead. It's 2069 01:41:41.239 --> 01:41:42.680 hard to live on your own in the middle of 2070 01:41:42.699 --> 01:41:45.350 the jungle with no community and nobody who has anything 2071 01:41:45.390 --> 01:41:49.649 to do with you, just shun. So that's the worst 2072 01:41:49.710 --> 01:41:51.590 punishment they have. Banishment. Banishment. 2073 01:41:52.770 --> 01:41:55.109 Banishment. The jungle's crazy. 2074 01:41:55.350 --> 01:41:55.569 Yeah. 2075 01:41:55.770 --> 01:41:57.649 What did they give him to survive? Was it like 2076 01:41:57.689 --> 01:41:58.630 you when you were learning? 2077 01:41:59.250 --> 01:41:59.750 He got nothing. 2078 01:42:00.050 --> 01:42:00.390 Nothing. 2079 01:42:00.489 --> 01:42:03.039 Yeah, get out. He could take what he had. But 2080 01:42:03.159 --> 01:42:05.060

nobody gave him anything else. So he had a bow 2081 01:42:05.079 --> 01:42:06.920 and arrow, no food, no clothes. 2082 01:42:07.199 --> 01:42:07.899 How did he die? 2083 01:42:09.920 --> 01:42:12.270 Well, that I don't know because I just know that 2084 01:42:12.319 --> 01:42:15.449 when I came, I would ask about him, and then 2085 01:42:15.470 --> 01:42:18.829 they said, oh, he's dead. So there's two possibilities. He died, 2086 01:42:19.149 --> 01:42:22.229 naturally death, which I think is probably what happened, or 2087 01:42:22.270 --> 01:42:22.939 somebody killed him. 2088 01:42:23.630 --> 01:42:25.220 And then changed their name. I didn't do it. 2089 01:42:25.409 --> 01:42:29.140 Yeah, yeah. That could have easily happened. 2090 01:42:29.180 --> 01:42:31.619 The change of the name gag is awesome. Yeah. 2091 01:42:31.779 --> 01:42:34.399 Everybody up there is violent. You see Brazilians coming up 2092 01:42:34.439 --> 01:42:37.689 in these boats. Many of them are like pirates. I mean, 2093 01:42:37.699 --> 01:42:40.770 they don't practice piracy now. Some of them do. But 2094 01:42:41.130 --> 01:42:43.489 you go on a boat with these guys and these 2095 01:42:43.550 --> 01:42:45.750 are some tough looking guys. They've got scars on their 2096 01:42:45.789 --> 01:42:48.630 faces and scars on their, these are knife fights. These 2097 01:42:48.670 --> 01:42:53.310 are guys who, you know, like I got really mad 2098 01:42:53.350 --> 01:42:56.989 at somebody once and I mentioned to another Brazilian, I said, 2099 01:42:57.069 --> 01:42:58.229 you know, if he keeps doing that, I'm going to 2100 01:42:58.270 --> 01:43:00.539 punch him in the face. And he says, If you 2101 01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:01.859 punch him in the face, he's going to kill you. 2102 01:43:02.720 --> 01:43:04.239 You know, he'll either get a knife or he'll get 2103 01:43:04.260 --> 01:43:06.279 a gun. So if you decide you're going to hit somebody, 2104 01:43:06.300 --> 01:43:08.140 you better be armed because they're going to come at 2105 01:43:08.159 --> 01:43:09.810 you with whatever weapon they can get their hands on. 2106 01:43:09.810 --> 01:43:11.189 You really thought that you were just going to be 2107 01:43:11.210 --> 01:43:11.789 able to punch him? 2108 01:43:13.149 --> 01:43:15.949 I was just talking, but I, you know, obviously didn't 2109 01:43:15.989 --> 01:43:18.170 have a lot of, you know, my dad liked to 2110 01:43:18.210 --> 01:43:18.670 fight a lot. 2111 01:43:18.869 --> 01:43:22.029 Were you guys drunk at the time when you were 2112 01:43:22.050 --> 01:43:22.369 doing this? 2113 01:43:24.069 --> 01:43:26.460 Oh, no, I wasn't drunk. This guy was drunk and 2114 01:43:26.500 --> 01:43:29.470 he was pushing and he was. giving my daughters, who 2115 01:43:29.630 --> 01:43:33.109 by that time were pretty little blonde teenagers, a hard time. 2116 01:43:33.609 --> 01:43:37.060 And I told him to get away. And he wanted 2117 01:43:37.069 --> 01:43:40.720 to fight. And I got it calmed down, but I thought, 2118 01:43:40.979 --> 01:43:42.579 you know, if he keeps trying, I'm going to punch 2119 01:43:42.600 --> 01:43:44.039 him in the face. And I told this guy that, 2120 01:43:44.060 --> 01:43:47.020 and he said, you don't do that out here. Unless 2121 01:43:47.039 --> 01:43:49.439 you're willing to kill him right now, don't do that. 2122 01:43:49.920 --> 01:43:52.560 Because he's not going to fight you fair. He's going 2123 01:43:52.579 --> 01:43:54.199 to come at you when you're not expecting it, and 2124 01:43:54.220 --> 01:43:54.899 you're going to die. 2125 01:43:55.890 --> 01:43:56.010 So. 2126 01:43:56.909 --> 01:44:00.380 This is– it's just a different concept. So avoiding violence 2127 01:44:00.760 --> 01:44:04.840 has lots of reasons to be done. 2128 01:44:04.859 --> 01:44:07.960 I agree with that at all times. Yeah. I think 2129 01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:09.800 people should constantly avoid violence. 2130 01:44:10.340 --> 01:44:12.800 I completely agree too. And the PETA has shown you that. 2131 01:44:12.840 --> 01:44:16.289 These are people who are much better at violence than 2132 01:44:16.890 --> 01:44:20.090 most people in this country without guns. 2133 01:44:20.710 --> 01:44:21.630 And they avoid it at all costs. 2134 01:44:21.649 --> 01:44:23.369 And they avoid it at all costs. Yeah. 2135 01:44:23.550 --> 01:44:23.770 Wise. 2136 01:44:23.789 --> 01:44:25.279 Wise. Yeah, very wise. 2137 01:44:25.779 --> 01:44:28.279 What did you think when you were just looking at 2138 01:44:28.340 --> 01:44:31.979 the framework that they live by that these people don't 2139 01:44:32.020 --> 01:44:36.039 have a God, that they don't have like someone watching over, 2140 01:44:36.159 --> 01:44:38.539 making sure they're doing the right thing all the time 2141 01:44:38.640 --> 01:44:42.869 or this punishment of being burning forever in hell? None 2142 01:44:42.890 --> 01:44:44.569 of that is motivating them. No. 2143 01:44:45.050 --> 01:44:47.250 And I also thought that they would be afraid of death. 2144 01:44:47.510 --> 01:44:51.409 They're not. I thought they would be afraid of the unknown. 2145 01:44:51.710 --> 01:44:55.710 They're not. They're willing to learn. I sit outside on 2146 01:44:55.729 --> 01:44:59.310 the riverbank with them and they point out satellites going 2147 01:44:59.350 --> 01:45:03.029 overhead because they know the sky so well that they say, 2148 01:45:03.050 --> 01:45:06.000 what's that? And I look and it's like, must be 2149 01:45:06.039 --> 01:45:08.500 a satellite. I said, it's like a radio thing because 2150 01:45:08.520 --> 01:45:10.479 they have radio. I mean, they don't have radios, but 2151 01:45:10.520 --> 01:45:14.119 I have radio. And they said, well, who put that 2152 01:45:14.180 --> 01:45:17.890 up there? I said, I don't know. I said, Americans, 2153 01:45:18.850 --> 01:45:21.409 I think. And they said, You know how to do that? 2154 01:45:21.449 --> 01:45:22.649 I said, no, I

don't know how to do that. 2155 01:45:22.710 --> 01:45:24.550 So they said, some other Americans know how to do that. 2156 01:45:24.590 --> 01:45:26.069 I said, yeah, I don't know how to do that. 2157 01:45:27.609 --> 01:45:31.949 But they're very conscious of their environment. Right. And they're 2158 01:45:32.010 --> 01:45:34.640 very curious and they want to learn these things. But 2159 01:45:34.680 --> 01:45:36.260 if I told them that God put it up there, 2160 01:45:36.520 --> 01:45:37.380 they wouldn't pay attention. 2161 01:45:37.779 --> 01:45:42.140 Now, they have these spirits that we talked about earlier 2162 01:45:42.340 --> 01:45:46.960 where they believe a thing embodies a spirit. Like it 2163 01:45:47.000 --> 01:45:49.680 could be like a jaguar embodies a spirit. Yes, exactly. 2164 01:45:50.789 --> 01:45:53.510 So, they have some spirits, so that's a spirit we 2165 01:45:53.550 --> 01:45:55.789 haven't talked about yet. So they have this spirit, Igagai, 2166 01:45:56.350 --> 01:45:59.949 which they believe, you know, so they might see a 2167 01:45:59.989 --> 01:46:01.989 man and then they might see a jaguar and then 2168 01:46:02.029 --> 01:46:03.770 they say, that must be the same thing, you know, 2169 01:46:03.850 --> 01:46:06.729 this man became a jaguar or the jaguar became a man. 2170 01:46:07.680 --> 01:46:11.800 And this is a belief that is, in fact, shape-shifting 2171 01:46:11.859 --> 01:46:15.520 is not an uncommon belief in the Amazon among even 2172 01:46:15.560 --> 01:46:19.760 Brazilians that live there. So, One time I got up 2173 01:46:19.800 --> 01:46:22.750 in the morning and everybody was yelling and pointing at 2174 01:46:23.050 --> 01:46:27.210 the beach on the other side. And I said, what 2175 01:46:27.229 --> 01:46:29.739 are we looking at? They said, can't you see it? 2176 01:46:29.869 --> 01:46:32.310 I said, I don't see anything. And they said, that's Igagai. 2177 01:46:32.930 --> 01:46:37.859 And I didn't see anything. Then later, a few nights later, 2178 01:46:37.920 --> 01:46:41.119 somebody said, we've seen Igagai. It's dark. It's night. And 2179 01:46:41.140 --> 01:46:42.939 the guy wakes me up. He says, we've seen Igagai. 2180 01:46:42.960 --> 01:46:45.779 He's not far behind your house. Would you come with us? 2181 01:46:45.779 --> 01:46:47.859 Because we know you're not afraid of him. you know, 2182 01:46:48.060 --> 01:46:51.199 and I fell for that. And so we go out 2183 01:46:51.239 --> 01:46:53.239 there and then I turn around and they're not by 2184 01:46:53.300 --> 01:46:57.050 me because Igagai can also refer to the jaguar shape. 2185 01:46:57.229 --> 01:47:00.090 So there's a jaguar out there and I just won't 2186 01:47:00.130 --> 01:47:02.329 go walking out there with a machete, you know, and 2187 01:47:02.369 --> 01:47:04.010 then I realized they're not with me and I go 2188 01:47:04.029 --> 01:47:06.250 back and they said, did you see it? I said, no, 2189 01:47:06.289 --> 01:47:11.979 I didn't see anything. But they, if they see a jaguar, 2190 01:47:12.539 --> 01:47:14.579 they believe that it could be a jaguar or it 2191 01:47:14.640 --> 01:47:16.140 could be Igagai. 2192 01:47:17.050 --> 01:47:19.590 But when they were seeing this Igagai and you couldn't 2193 01:47:19.630 --> 01:47:20.890 see anything, they were seeing it. 2194 01:47:21.729 --> 01:47:27.229 Yes. And I was looking for a human-looking creature. But 2195 01:47:27.810 --> 01:47:31.130 it's very possible that there was a jaguar just inside 2196 01:47:31.170 --> 01:47:32.170 the forest. 2197 01:47:31.869 --> 01:47:33.250 That I didn't see. But they could see it and 2198 01:47:33.289 --> 01:47:33.770 you couldn't. 2199 01:47:34.350 --> 01:47:36.869 Yeah, because, well, yeah, but if you walk around with 2200 01:47:36.890 --> 01:47:38.810 them in the jungle, you find that they can see 2201 01:47:38.850 --> 01:47:41.149 a lot of things you can't see. So once I 2202 01:47:41.170 --> 01:47:43.470 was walking with a guy down a path and he said, oh, 2203 01:47:43.630 --> 01:47:46.479 don't step on that snake. It's a bushmaster. And I said, what? 2204 01:47:47.220 --> 01:47:49.020 And I'm looking down. I'm looking at the path. I 2205 01:47:49.039 --> 01:47:52.619 don't see anything. And I said, what snake? And he 2206 01:47:52.659 --> 01:47:55.560 takes his bow and he shoots. And the arrow starts 2207 01:47:56.010 --> 01:47:58.020 flocking around like that. And he pulls it up. And 2208 01:47:58.050 --> 01:47:59.750 there's a Bushmaster at the end. He said, that one. 2209 01:48:00.289 --> 01:48:02.989 Don't step on that one. And I didn't see it. 2210 01:48:03.050 --> 01:48:07.409 And I've almost put my hand on snakes. I don't 2211 01:48:07.449 --> 01:48:11.569 know why I'm still alive. Because it's like I'm a 2212 01:48:12.289 --> 01:48:15.869 special needs person. They have to watch out for me 2213 01:48:15.890 --> 01:48:18.149 when I'm in the jungle. Because It takes a lot 2214 01:48:18.199 --> 01:48:20.579 of skill to be able to see these things. Just 2215 01:48:20.600 --> 01:48:22.479 like when I take them to the city for like 2216 01:48:22.649 --> 01:48:26.409 medical work, they get totally lost. They can't they it's 2217 01:48:26.449 --> 01:48:28.210 hard for them to understand how I can find my 2218 01:48:28.250 --> 01:48:32.409 way around the city because the cues that I'm using 2219 01:48:33.010 --> 01:48:34.760 are totally different than the things they're used to. 2220 01:48:35.279 --> 01:48:38.500 So this Igagai, this thing that they said they saw, 2221 01:48:38.579 --> 01:48:41.220 they could have just been seeing an animal and saying 2222 01:48:41.439 --> 01:48:44.470 it was Igagai and agreeing that it was a spirit. 2223 01:48:44.810 --> 01:48:45.869 And that's not. 2224 01:48:45.710 --> 01:48:48.949 Like they're seeing a spirit that you're not seeing. Did 2225 01:48:48.970 --> 01:48:51.909 you ever take that into consideration that they can see 2226

01:48:51.949 --> 01:48:52.750 things you can't see? 2227 01:48:52.930 --> 01:48:55.390 Yes, that is another possibility. And I definitely took that. 2228 01:48:55.670 --> 01:48:58.189 In fact, for the first several years before I had 2229 01:48:58.250 --> 01:49:02.489 really investigated the different shape shifting of Igagai, I thought 2230 01:49:02.520 --> 01:49:04.989 that's all it could mean. They were seeing something. And 2231 01:49:05.069 --> 01:49:06.800 I couldn't see it. They were all seeing it. 2232 01:49:06.850 --> 01:49:10.229 So you took that into consideration that maybe they have 2233 01:49:10.270 --> 01:49:12.050 a sense that you don't have? Yes. 2234 01:49:12.470 --> 01:49:16.539 And it's clear that they have senses in the jungle. 2235 01:49:16.560 --> 01:49:18.239 They're able to sense things that I cannot. 2236 01:49:18.520 --> 01:49:18.920 Like how? 2237 01:49:19.960 --> 01:49:26.399 Well, like I say, they've grown up learning. So let's 2238 01:49:26.420 --> 01:49:28.239 say that you see a branch move in a tree. 2239 01:49:29.439 --> 01:49:32.829 Was that the wind? Was that a monkey moving? Was 2240 01:49:32.869 --> 01:49:35.079 that a snake up in the tree? What was it? 2241 01:49:36.260 --> 01:49:36.640 I don't know. 2242 01:49:36.880 --> 01:49:39.939 I barely noticed that the branches make moving. But they 2243 01:49:39.979 --> 01:49:42.609 know not only that it's moving, but exactly what caused it. 2244 01:49:42.979 --> 01:49:45.500 I can see bubbles coming out of the water from 2245 01:49:45.560 --> 01:49:49.500 the river. They're just bubbles to me, but to them, 2246 01:49:49.779 --> 01:49:55.520 they represent either a rock underneath or an alligator or 2247 01:49:55.619 --> 01:49:58.430 some other creature that's under the water. And they can 2248 01:49:58.449 --> 01:50:01.350 tell by the bubbles. But I can't. So they've learned 2249 01:50:01.470 --> 01:50:06.109 to interpret their world in a way that I can't. 2250 01:50:06.510 --> 01:50:08.829 So it's not that they don't have senses that you, 2251 01:50:09.710 --> 01:50:11.510 that they have senses that you don't have, but that 2252 01:50:11.609 --> 01:50:12.949 they have pattern recognition. 2253 01:50:13.789 --> 01:50:18.029 That's the way I would put it. But again, you 2254 01:50:18.050 --> 01:50:22.729 would need to do some sort of psychological testing and 2255 01:50:22.810 --> 01:50:25.550 much more controlled conditions than I've ever been able to 2256 01:50:25.609 --> 01:50:29.600 do to sort those things out. But my view now 2257 01:50:29.729 --> 01:50:33.449 is that they simply have the ability to recognize and, 2258 01:50:34.189 --> 01:50:37.430 and perceive things that they've grown up with that I 2259 01:50:37.489 --> 01:50:38.250 miss entirely. 2260 01:50:39.489 --> 01:50:45.029 And this spirit thing, does it always embody a creature 2261 01:50:45.109 --> 01:50:48.560 that they're, that they're, that's common like a Jaguar or 2262 01:50:48.649 --> 01:50:51.920 does it sometimes take on another form? 2263 01:50:54.140 --> 01:50:57.720 It can take these, these, um, entities that I've talked about. 2264 01:50:58.659 --> 01:51:06.029 So there's another one, um, um, Ai, which has long teeth. 2265 01:51:06.989 --> 01:51:09.989 And so they see these different creatures. One's naked, talks 2266 01:51:10.029 --> 01:51:16.060 in a high voice. And so they're putting experiences they 2267 01:51:16.119 --> 01:51:20.060 can't explain into the shapes of these entities that they 2268 01:51:20.119 --> 01:51:23.779 can explain. So just like us, we see so many 2269 01:51:23.840 --> 01:51:26.050 things in the world we don't understand. That's what science 2270 01:51:26.090 --> 01:51:30.050 is all about. So we create theoretical entities to be 2271 01:51:30.149 --> 01:51:33.789 able to explain those observations that we otherwise have no 2272 01:51:33.869 --> 01:51:39.689 explanation for. So in a sense, these separate entities are 2273 01:51:39.710 --> 01:51:41.850 a primitive form. I shouldn't even use the word primitive. 2274 01:51:41.880 --> 01:51:44.949 They're a form of science given what they have. They're 2275 01:51:45.439 --> 01:51:48.760 reducing the unexplained to the explainable. 2276 01:51:49.460 --> 01:51:53.680 And their audit of the jungle is limited to the 2277 01:51:53.819 --> 01:51:57.319 places that they've traveled. Right. So their version of the 2278 01:51:57.399 --> 01:52:01.340 world is entirely limited to the language they possess. Is 2279 01:52:01.399 --> 01:52:02.039 it written at all? 2280 01:52:02.960 --> 01:52:05.060 I developed a writing system for them, yes. 2281 01:52:05.079 --> 01:52:05.899 But before you know. 2282 01:52:06.180 --> 01:52:06.899 Before you know. 2283 01:52:06.920 --> 01:52:11.680 So non-written language, verbal language with no historical database to 2284 01:52:11.720 --> 01:52:12.800 draw from. Right. 2285 01:52:13.539 --> 01:52:16.159 But they actually get some really good skills out of this. 2286 01:52:16.199 --> 01:52:18.779 So I took a guy to the nearest town, a 2287 01:52:19.260 --> 01:52:21.979 big town, Porto Velho. It's the capital of a Brazilian state. 2288 01:52:22.869 --> 01:52:25.909 because he had cirrhosis of the liver, however he got that. 2289 01:52:26.630 --> 01:52:28.329 And I took him to the hospital. First, we went 2290 01:52:28.369 --> 01:52:31.380 to my house that I had in that city on 2291 01:52:31.399 --> 01:52:34.520 the missionary compound. He had never been out of the 2292 01:52:34.539 --> 01:52:37.140 jungle before in his life. So we go there and 2293 01:52:37.199 --> 01:52:38.819 we have lunch. And I said, now it's time to 2294 01:52:38.859 --> 01:52:40.659 go to the hospital. So I take him to the 2295 01:52:40.699 --> 01:52:42.659 hospital and he says, I don't want to stay here. 2296 01:52:43.159 --> 01:52:45.260 I said, the doctors say you have to stay here 2297 01:52:45.300 --> 01:52:47.359 so they can make you feel better. And

so then 2298 01:52:47.420 --> 01:52:49.479 I drive off after I spent a couple of hours 2299 01:52:49.500 --> 01:52:54.939 with him. And, um, The next morning, about 6 a.m., 2300 01:52:55.439 --> 01:52:57.920 there's this knocking on my door. So this is 30 2301 01:52:57.920 --> 01:53:01.640 miles away. The hospital's 30 miles away. And he's standing 2302 01:53:01.680 --> 01:53:04.399 there wearing a hospital gown with no underwear or anything on. 2303 01:53:04.979 --> 01:53:09.220 And I said, how did you find my house? He said, well, 2304 01:53:09.239 --> 01:53:11.159 I just walked here. I said, but how did you 2305 01:53:11.199 --> 01:53:12.920 know how to walk here? Well, I saw it yesterday. 2306 01:53:13.680 --> 01:53:15.340 But all he had to do was get the river 2307 01:53:15.399 --> 01:53:19.760 where the river is and then mentally compute where we're at. 2308 01:53:19.859 --> 01:53:23.850 So Many experiments have shown that people who don't have 2309 01:53:24.149 --> 01:53:27.489 right and left, front and back, but use absolute directions 2310 01:53:27.529 --> 01:53:29.550 like up river, down river, to the jungle, away from 2311 01:53:29.569 --> 01:53:33.409 the jungle, are better at finding their way in new 2312 01:53:33.479 --> 01:53:36.079 places than we are. You know, I can tell you 2313 01:53:36.159 --> 01:53:38.420 turn north, and you might know what I'm talking about. 2314 01:53:38.579 --> 01:53:41.199 For the average person, I say, turn north. If your 2315 01:53:41.239 --> 01:53:42.899 life depends on it, you don't know which way to turn. 2316 01:53:44.119 --> 01:53:46.520 But they would know. And so that gives them a 2317 01:53:46.579 --> 01:53:49.600 better sense of a map of where they're at. 2318 01:53:49.949 --> 01:53:51.510 So do they have a word for north? 2319 01:53:52.729 --> 01:53:56.119 No, they only use upriver. So the first thing they 2320 01:53:56.159 --> 01:53:57.699 have to do, the first thing he did when we 2321 01:53:57.739 --> 01:54:00.939 got him out to town was, where's the river? And 2322 01:54:01.000 --> 01:54:03.239 I showed him the river, and now he knew where 2323 01:54:03.260 --> 01:54:07.710 everything was. Because he got the river, hence he's got 2324 01:54:07.729 --> 01:54:09.569 my house, now he knows where everything is. 2325 01:54:09.569 --> 01:54:11.130 30 miles away. 2326 01:54:11.350 --> 01:54:12.270 Yeah, 30 miles away. 2327 01:54:12.770 --> 01:54:14.369 But doesn't the river wind? 2328 01:54:14.649 --> 01:54:17.229 Yes, but they know how rivers work. And they can 2329 01:54:17.260 --> 01:54:19.119 tell by the direction which way it's flowing. And when 2330 01:54:19.140 --> 01:54:20.619 he looks at it, he knows which way is up 2331 01:54:20.680 --> 01:54:22.439 river and down river based on the way the water 2332 01:54:22.460 --> 01:54:25.779 is flowing. And he walked out barefoot with nothing but 2333 01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:29.539 a hospital gown on, 30 kilometers. And so he left 2334 01:54:29.600

--> 01:54:31.279 at night and he got there first thing in the morning. 2335 01:54:31.500 --> 01:54:31.899 Wow. 2336 01:54:32.140 --> 01:54:33.960 And I said, well, we have to go back. He said, 2337 01:54:34.100 --> 01:54:36.609 I am not going back. I said, well, the doctor 2338 01:54:36.649 --> 01:54:38.550 says you'll die if you don't go back. He says, well, 2339 01:54:38.569 --> 01:54:40.170 I'm going to die then because I'm not going back. 2340 01:54:40.649 --> 01:54:42.250 He said, I would rather go back and die with 2341 01:54:42.289 --> 01:54:44.710 my people. And so I took him back. And a 2342 01:54:44.729 --> 01:54:45.810 few days later, he was dead. 2343 01:54:47.180 --> 01:54:47.819 Was he a drinker? 2344 01:54:48.739 --> 01:54:51.840 He had been, yeah. There was a time before I 2345 01:54:51.920 --> 01:54:56.260 helped the Indian agency demarcate their reservation so it could 2346 01:54:56.279 --> 01:54:59.539 be controlled that boats came up and down all the 2347 01:54:59.600 --> 01:55:04.130 time when the Brazil nuts were falling and when there 2348 01:55:04.149 --> 01:55:07.189 were other jungle products like latex and sorva, which is 2349 01:55:07.229 --> 01:55:09.449 a product used to make chewing gum and all sorts 2350 01:55:09.489 --> 01:55:12.649 of other things, and copaiba, which is used for suntan lotion. 2351 01:55:12.689 --> 01:55:14.939 So the Brazilian boats would come up. and trade for 2352 01:55:14.979 --> 01:55:17.420 all these things. And they always traded with whiskey because 2353 01:55:17.479 --> 01:55:21.659 that's the, I mean, sugar cane rum, cachaca, which is 2354 01:55:21.739 --> 01:55:24.149 the cheapest thing. You know, it's 30 cents a bottle. 2355 01:55:24.560 --> 01:55:25.869 It was a lot easier to give them that and 2356 01:55:25.890 --> 01:55:28.229 the pitahal like it. You know, I told him one time, 2357 01:55:28.270 --> 01:55:30.229 I said, this stuff's really cheap. It doesn't cost, he said, 2358 01:55:30.289 --> 01:55:32.470 not for us it isn't. We don't otherwise get it 2359 01:55:32.770 --> 01:55:36.470 and we like it. So, you know, they like to drink. 2360 01:55:36.569 --> 01:55:40.550 Did they understand the concept of health, of the consequences 2361 01:55:40.609 --> 01:55:41.489 of drinking alcohol? 2362 01:55:41.750 --> 01:55:44.449 No, because if you're a hunter-gatherer, and you're not used 2363 01:55:44.479 --> 01:55:47.600 to having something in constant supply, you don't have to 2364 01:55:47.640 --> 01:55:50.520 worry about it. But once it comes in constant supply, 2365 01:55:50.539 --> 01:55:52.699 then you do have to worry about it. And when 2366 01:55:52.739 --> 01:55:55.380 these guys keep coming up, giving, leaving this stuff off, 2367 01:55:55.779 --> 01:55:58.600 then it becomes a serious health problem. Whereas before it 2368 01:55:58.619 --> 01:56:00.319 was like, I got drunk six months ago. 2369 01:56:00.350 --> 01:56:00.890 Right. 2370 01:56:01.060 --> 01:56:02.069 You know, it's not a big deal. 2371 01:56:02.409 --> 01:56:06.329 Right. So once it became commonplace. Yeah. And do they 2372 01:56:06.369 --> 01:56:10.510 adjust their behavior based on people dying of like liver sclerosis? 2373 01:56:10.710 --> 01:56:14.130 Not that I've ever seen. They, they don't, I can 2374 01:56:14.170 --> 01:56:16.489 tell them till I'm blue in the face that it's 2375 01:56:16.510 --> 01:56:19.670 the alcohol that's doing this or the tobacco that's doing this. 2376 01:56:21.090 --> 01:56:23.210 Why would they believe me? They know a lot of 2377 01:56:23.250 --> 01:56:25.539 guys who have drunk a lot of whiskey and they 2378 01:56:25.579 --> 01:56:28.649 don't have it. So these couple of guys got it. 2379 01:56:29.380 --> 01:56:33.119 How do I know that's what caused it? So they 2380 01:56:33.140 --> 01:56:37.119 don't take my word on childlike. It is childlike in 2381 01:56:37.159 --> 01:56:41.649 the sense that children learn by evidence. And if children 2382 01:56:41.689 --> 01:56:45.579 don't have evidence for something, And it takes a while 2383 01:56:45.619 --> 01:56:47.500 for the evidence to start to sink in. You've got 2384 01:56:47.520 --> 01:56:48.659 to repeat the experiment. 2385 01:56:49.039 --> 01:56:52.000 Right. But you would imagine that if they're intelligent people, 2386 01:56:52.100 --> 01:56:57.680 you could explain this consumption of alcohol when done infrequently, 2387 01:56:57.739 --> 01:57:01.279 it's okay. But the everyday consumption of alcohol, because you 2388 01:57:01.319 --> 01:57:03.909 have an endless supply of it now, is becoming a 2389 01:57:03.949 --> 01:57:04.649 real problem. 2390 01:57:04.930 --> 01:57:06.770 That's a very good point. And I have brought that 2391 01:57:06.829 --> 01:57:10.329 up with them before. And they say, yeah, we know 2392 01:57:10.350 --> 01:57:11.850 a lot of Brazilians that drink and they don't get 2393 01:57:11.869 --> 01:57:15.750 that sickness. Yeah. They come right up. It's like I 2394 01:57:15.770 --> 01:57:19.310 could tell you that the COVID vaccine is really good 2395 01:57:19.350 --> 01:57:20.859 for you. And you can say, well, I know a 2396 01:57:20.859 --> 01:57:22.079 lot of people didn't get it, and they didn't get 2397 01:57:22.119 --> 01:57:25.920 COVID either. They weren't vaccinated. They didn't get COVID. So 2398 01:57:25.960 --> 01:57:29.840 you have to look at the statistics. And even there, 2399 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:30.840 it's hard. 2400 01:57:31.520 --> 01:57:34.279 They just don't seem very concerned with dying anyway. 2401 01:57:34.979 --> 01:57:38.859 They're not. They don't want to die right now, but 2402 01:57:39.350 --> 01:57:40.989 it happens, and they're not worried about it. 2403 01:57:42.229 --> 01:57:46.010 What do they think? do they have a purpose for life? 2404 01:57:46.449 --> 01:57:49.630 Do they have a thing they worship at all? 2405 01:57:50.789 --> 01:57:55.619 No, they don't worship anything. The community is everything.

You 2406 01:57:55.680 --> 01:57:58.840 make a contribution to the community while you're alive, and 2407 01:57:59.180 --> 01:57:59.979 that's your purpose. 2408 01:58:00.680 --> 01:58:01.100 That's it. 2409 01:58:01.279 --> 01:58:04.930 That's it. And it doesn't take any thought. You don't 2410 01:58:04.949 --> 01:58:07.050 need somebody to give a lesson. This is what our 2411 01:58:07.090 --> 01:58:09.970 purpose is, folks. You just see everybody living, and that's 2412 01:58:10.039 --> 01:58:10.520 how you live. 2413 01:58:10.539 --> 01:58:14.659 Isn't it odd that that's not the primary way people live, 2414 01:58:14.739 --> 01:58:18.840 if that makes you so happy? It's interesting because even me, 2415 01:58:19.100 --> 01:58:21.430 I'm hearing this, I'm like, God, it's so appealing. But 2416 01:58:21.560 --> 01:58:23.390 part of me is like, I'm not fucking living like that. 2417 01:58:23.670 --> 01:58:25.510 You know, nobody wants to live like that. It just 2418 01:58:25.550 --> 01:58:28.649 seems too crazy, too difficult, too daunting. 2419 01:58:28.670 --> 01:58:29.069 I don't want to. 2420 01:58:29.350 --> 01:58:31.850 Get bit by a snake and have my bones exposed? 2421 01:58:32.130 --> 01:58:34.170 Well, I often think this when I talk to people 2422 01:58:34.210 --> 01:58:37.680 who are extreme ecologists who think we need to not 2423 01:58:37.720 --> 01:58:39.979 affect the environment. And I'm thinking, yeah, well, go live 2424 01:58:40.020 --> 01:58:42.039 with the pitaha. You know, you're not going to last 2425 01:58:42.079 --> 01:58:45.979 three days there with them. Maybe a few days more, 2426 01:58:46.039 --> 01:58:51.199 but not much. So it is very appealing. And I 2427 01:58:51.270 --> 01:58:53.989 live there and enjoyed it. But while I was living there, 2428 01:58:54.130 --> 01:58:56.130 I had things they didn't have access to. So I 2429 01:58:56.510 --> 01:58:58.750 I can't fairly say that I live just like them. 2430 01:58:58.850 --> 01:58:59.689 And you could always leave. 2431 01:59:00.010 --> 01:59:02.250 And I can always leave, yeah. I mean, I can 2432 01:59:02.670 --> 01:59:06.020 get in my motorboat and take off. Or, in the 2433 01:59:06.069 --> 01:59:08.960 worst case, I can get on my two-way radio or 2434 01:59:09.020 --> 01:59:10.840 satellite phone and call for help. 2435 01:59:11.140 --> 01:59:13.479 Did you ever think about just saying, fuck it, stay 2436 01:59:13.520 --> 01:59:14.800 there forever? Yeah. 2437 01:59:15.140 --> 01:59:17.000 In the early years, I did think about it. I 2438 01:59:17.039 --> 01:59:20.140 thought about not pursuing any kind of graduate degree, not 2439 01:59:20.180 --> 01:59:23.920 worrying about ever coming back to the U.S. And I 2440 01:59:23.979 --> 01:59:26.550 was really loving it there. But then I realized... My 2441 01:59:26.609 --> 01:59:31.640 kids wanted a wider experience, and I didn't have the 2442 01:59:31.699 --> 01:59:32.779 right to deprive them of that. 2443 01:59:32.800 --> 01:59:34.140 So you think if you were single, you would have 2444 01:59:34.159 --> 01:59:34.800 just integrated? 2445 01:59:35.560 --> 01:59:38.380 It's very possible, yeah. I mean, that would have been 2446 01:59:38.439 --> 01:59:41.159 easy to do, although I would have had to become 2447 01:59:41.239 --> 01:59:45.399 much better at outdoor skills than I ever was. I mean, 2448 01:59:45.420 --> 01:59:48.439 I would not stand up to a pitaha's standards of 2449 01:59:48.520 --> 01:59:51.470 hunting and fishing, and no woman would have married me 2450 01:59:51.829 --> 01:59:53.449 because they would have starved to death. 2451 01:59:54.819 --> 01:59:56.420 Did you ever get better at those things? 2452 01:59:57.229 --> 02:00:02.949 Not really. No? For one thing, I like to hunt. 2453 02:00:03.069 --> 02:00:05.409 I started hunting when I was like 10 years old, 2454 02:00:05.470 --> 02:00:09.029 pheasant hunting, dove hunting. And so I do enjoy that, 2455 02:00:09.649 --> 02:00:14.140 but I've never given it the time to become really 2456 02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:16.119 good at it. Now, if I were abandoned in the jungle, 2457 02:00:16.319 --> 02:00:19.260 I probably would, but it would take me a long time. 2458 02:00:19.640 --> 02:00:21.979 These guys are using bows and arrows from the time 2459 02:00:22.020 --> 02:00:24.430 they're two years old. So by the time they get 2460 02:00:24.920 --> 02:00:29.010 To be teenagers, they're perfect. They are absolutely unmatchless in 2461 02:00:29.029 --> 02:00:32.170 their skill. And I've done little archery contests before to 2462 02:00:32.189 --> 02:00:35.829 see how good they are. And it's just astounding. So 2463 02:00:36.289 --> 02:00:39.090 I would have to spend many years practicing to get 2464 02:00:39.130 --> 02:00:41.609 as good as they are. And then in the meantime, 2465 02:00:41.630 --> 02:00:43.279 I would starve to death because they're not going to 2466 02:00:43.319 --> 02:00:43.659 feed me. 2467 02:00:45.600 --> 02:00:46.899 How are they making their bows? 2468 02:00:48.819 --> 02:00:50.939 There's a couple of different kinds of wood that they use. 2469 02:00:51.060 --> 02:00:54.979 But there's one that is a bright red wood. And 2470 02:00:55.020 --> 02:01:04.090 it's called piranha food because it grows near the edge 2471 02:01:04.130 --> 02:01:07.090 of the river and it drops flowers off the tree 2472 02:01:07.149 --> 02:01:09.649 into the river. And the piranhas love to eat those flowers. 2473 02:01:10.569 --> 02:01:12.170 So if you see a lot of those flowers in 2474 02:01:12.189 --> 02:01:15.329 the water, probably not good to swim there. But they 2475 02:01:15.390 --> 02:01:17.949 take a section of the bark, a big section. It 2476 02:01:17.970 --> 02:01:22.489 might be like four inches by four inches or six inches. 2477 02:01:23.569 --> 02:01:28.390 And it's just a hard piece, maybe eight feet long. 2478 02:01:29.069 --> 02:01:32.050 And they bring that back, and they have a special tool.

2479 02:01:32.949 --> 02:01:35.119 And it could be wood or bone, or if they 2480 02:01:35.140 --> 02:01:37.420 have a machete, they use that. And they just start 2481 02:01:37.479 --> 02:01:40.699 shaping it until finally they get a bow that's probably 2482 02:01:42.899 --> 02:01:45.819 two inches wide and an inch and a half thick. 2483 02:01:46.689 --> 02:01:51.029 And it's taller than they are. It's about seven feet long. And. 2484 02:01:52.789 --> 02:01:54.869 Then they get the bark from a tree, a certain 2485 02:01:54.890 --> 02:01:58.989 kind of tree, and they get it off in strands. 2486 02:01:59.409 --> 02:02:02.779 And so a man, a brother or a father or 2487 02:02:02.979 --> 02:02:06.260 a husband will give it to their closest woman relative, 2488 02:02:06.720 --> 02:02:09.300 and she takes those strands and she makes a bowstring. 2489 02:02:09.939 --> 02:02:13.300 So the bow represents man and woman working together. A 2490 02:02:13.340 --> 02:02:15.800 man can make the wood. A woman makes the string. 2491 02:02:16.180 --> 02:02:18.590 Then they get the arrows. A man gets the feathers. 2492 02:02:18.649 --> 02:02:20.970 A man gets the shaft. The woman makes the strings 2493 02:02:21.029 --> 02:02:25.550 that tie everything on. So she's the glue. And once 2494 02:02:25.569 --> 02:02:28.550 you get that, that thing... Yeah, there's one right there. 2495 02:02:29.369 --> 02:02:31.829 This guy. That's a pretty. 2496 02:02:31.869 --> 02:02:32.949 And those are the arrows? 2497 02:02:33.010 --> 02:02:34.930 Really long arrows? Yeah, yeah. Those are the arrows. And 2498 02:02:35.310 --> 02:02:38.300 these are fishing arrows, so they're much longer. But actually, 2499 02:02:38.310 --> 02:02:39.779 they're not both fishing arrows. One of them is just 2500 02:02:39.819 --> 02:02:42.479 a regular arrow. So their arrows are quite long. And 2501 02:02:42.520 --> 02:02:45.939 that thing is a very powerful bow. And you can 2502 02:02:46.000 --> 02:02:52.920 see the thickness of the string there. So... Yeah, and 2503 02:02:52.939 --> 02:02:53.659 that's the bow. 2504 02:02:54.720 --> 02:02:55.739 They eat a lot of monkeys? 2505 02:02:56.300 --> 02:02:57.439 Yeah, they eat a lot of monkeys. 2506 02:02:57.460 --> 02:02:58.479 Isn't that weird? 2507 02:03:00.079 --> 02:03:04.810 No, I asked them once. I said, do monkeys look 2508 02:03:04.829 --> 02:03:07.989 like people? And they say, no, why would you ask that? 2509 02:03:08.090 --> 02:03:11.029 I said, they look like people to me. And he said, no, no, 2510 02:03:11.069 --> 02:03:14.569 they're covered in hair. You're not covered in hair. So 2511 02:03:14.630 --> 02:03:19.239 I went to the Trans-Amazon Road. I was traveling out 2512 02:03:19.359 --> 02:03:23.989 all by myself, hitchhiking, and I stayed with this Brazilian. Um, 2513 02:03:24.569 --> 02:03:26.369 and I said, do you have any cold water? He said, 2514 02:03:26.510 --> 02:03:29.949 and he had a kerosene, um, refrigerator. And so I 2515 02:03:29.989 --> 02:03:31.930 went over and I opened it to get his cold water. 2516 02:03:32.329 --> 02:03:33.869 And at the bottom, it looked like there were like 2517 02:03:33.949 --> 02:03:37.810 four dead babies. And I'm thinking, Oh my God, what 2518 02:03:37.850 --> 02:03:39.890 is that? I said, what is this? He said, Oh, 2519 02:03:39.930 --> 02:03:42.689 it's just some monkeys. I skinned him, you know, and 2520 02:03:43.630 --> 02:03:47.640 a monkey that's been skinned does look a lot more human. Um, and, uh, 2521 02:03:47.689 --> 02:03:51.779 but nobody thinks twice about it, you know? Um, I said, 2522 02:03:52.060 --> 02:03:55.079 are the monkeys more like us or are they more 2523 02:03:55.119 --> 02:03:57.630 like dogs? Oh, they're like dogs. They're much more like 2524 02:03:57.689 --> 02:04:00.109 dogs than they are like us. They just don't see 2525 02:04:00.130 --> 02:04:00.609 the problem. 2526 02:04:01.229 --> 02:04:01.770 It's just food. 2527 02:04:02.090 --> 02:04:06.430 Yeah, it's just food. And so, you know, and they love, 2528 02:04:06.649 --> 02:04:10.010 their favorite part of any animal is the brains. And 2529 02:04:10.130 --> 02:04:12.539 one reason the brains are so good is because brains 2530 02:04:12.779 --> 02:04:16.000 have a lot of saturated fat. It's a great source 2531 02:04:16.020 --> 02:04:19.180 of saturated fat. They eat monkey brains? Yeah, they eat 2532 02:04:19.199 --> 02:04:21.699 monkey brains. So, The favorite thing, I was talking to 2533 02:04:21.739 --> 02:04:25.380 a woman one time and I was making a sandwich. 2534 02:04:25.439 --> 02:04:27.899 I had brought in some lunch meat and bread. I 2535 02:04:27.939 --> 02:04:29.520 had just gotten there. It was my first day there. 2536 02:04:29.560 --> 02:04:31.020 And so I had a little bit enough to make 2537 02:04:31.060 --> 02:04:34.899 a sandwich for that night. And I'm squirting mustard. And, 2538 02:04:34.930 --> 02:04:36.050 you know, when you get to the end of the 2539 02:04:36.060 --> 02:04:39.109 mustard bottle and you're squeezing, it makes a sound like 2540 02:04:39.609 --> 02:04:45.590 somebody who's got diarrhea. And she says, what is that 2541 02:04:45.949 --> 02:04:49.550 bird shit stuff you're eating? And I said, Well, it's good. 2542 02:04:49.609 --> 02:04:50.810 It's mustard. You want to try some? 2543 02:04:51.010 --> 02:04:51.630 Oh, no. 2544 02:04:52.310 --> 02:04:55.449 And she said, look at this bird shit. He's eating 2545 02:04:55.510 --> 02:04:58.909 bird shit. And then I look at her, and she's 2546 02:04:58.970 --> 02:05:02.569 eating the brains out of a rat. And he's got 2547 02:05:02.609 --> 02:05:05.840 this rat head, and she's sucking the brains out. And 2548 02:05:06.760 --> 02:05:09.859 they're cooked, of course. But she's sucking the brains. And 2549 02:05:09.899 --> 02:05:14.159 I'm thinking, this is a great example for an introductory 2550 02:05:14.199 --> 02:05:18.220 class in anthropology, you know, how different we

perceive things. 2551 02:05:18.619 --> 02:05:20.500 That's great to her. This is great to me. But 2552 02:05:20.520 --> 02:05:21.979 it grosses the other one out. 2553 02:05:22.180 --> 02:05:27.399 That's wild. Mustard's disgusting. Rat brain's great. Yeah. And isn't 2554 02:05:27.460 --> 02:05:31.699 there an issue with eating primate brain tissue? Can you 2555 02:05:31.720 --> 02:05:32.800 get prion diseases? 2556 02:05:32.979 --> 02:05:36.100 Well, there are diseases that they discovered in New Guinea 2557 02:05:36.180 --> 02:05:40.590 from cannibals who were eating human brains. Right. But I'm 2558 02:05:40.619 --> 02:05:43.350 not aware of any diseases that are passed by eating 2559 02:05:43.409 --> 02:05:47.069 monkey brains or other kinds of brains. They'll eat any 2560 02:05:47.130 --> 02:05:47.850 animal's brains. 2561 02:05:49.319 --> 02:05:52.000 So the prion diseases that you get are from animals 2562 02:05:52.079 --> 02:05:55.439 eating the same animal, right? Like mad cow disease is 2563 02:05:55.479 --> 02:05:58.899 because they serve cows literal brain and neural tissue from 2564 02:05:59.119 --> 02:06:00.159 other cows. Right. 2565 02:06:00.720 --> 02:06:03.619 So I'm not an expert on that, but I do 2566 02:06:03.649 --> 02:06:05.409 know that I've never seen a case of them getting 2567 02:06:05.590 --> 02:06:08.710 disease from that. And the superficial reading that I've done 2568 02:06:08.789 --> 02:06:11.729 on it suggests that humans get it from eating human brains. 2569 02:06:12.270 --> 02:06:17.229 Interesting. So they can eat deer brains, rat brains, no problem. Right. 2570 02:06:17.310 --> 02:06:20.060 So- The favorite part of any animal is the head. 2571 02:06:20.720 --> 02:06:22.930 So if they bring me a fish, they'll give me 2572 02:06:22.970 --> 02:06:26.109 a fish. They like to trade fish for canned meat 2573 02:06:26.189 --> 02:06:30.909 because canned meat keeps. But I like fish cheeks, but 2574 02:06:31.850 --> 02:06:34.329 my wife hated the fish heads. She didn't want the 2575 02:06:34.369 --> 02:06:37.529 fish heads around. So they would be happy to keep 2576 02:06:37.550 --> 02:06:39.149 the fish heads, and they just make a big stew 2577 02:06:39.170 --> 02:06:40.789 of fish heads, and they eat the brains and the 2578 02:06:40.869 --> 02:06:43.130 eyeballs and everything. Those are really tasty bits. 2579 02:06:44.010 --> 02:06:45.710 And probably rich in nutrients. 2580 02:06:46.000 --> 02:06:48.060 Yeah, they are rich in nutrients. They know what they're doing. 2581 02:06:48.100 --> 02:06:49.680 They love all the internal organs. 2582 02:06:50.039 --> 02:06:52.539 Yeah, it's so weird how we've moved away from all 2583 02:06:52.579 --> 02:06:53.060 that stuff. 2584 02:06:53.399 --> 02:06:53.619 Right. 2585 02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:56.319 I mean, that's one of the things that happens with wolves. 2586 02:06:56.399 --> 02:06:58.000 The alpha in the pack is the one that eats 2587 02:06:58.039 --> 02:06:58.510 the liver. 2588 02:06:59.399 --> 02:07:00.010 Right. 2589 02:07:00.149 --> 02:07:02.590 They know something's going on. There's a lot of nutrients 2590 02:07:02.630 --> 02:07:05.149 in these organ meats, and we've moved away from that 2591 02:07:05.189 --> 02:07:07.869 in a very strange way. Right. People are disgusted by 2592 02:07:07.909 --> 02:07:09.310 the idea of liver. Yeah. 2593 02:07:09.710 --> 02:07:11.529 So, you know, you go to some— if you go to 2594 02:07:11.590 --> 02:07:13.810 northern Brazil and you go to one of these churrascarias, 2595 02:07:13.869 --> 02:07:19.489 Brazilian steak restaurants— Love those. If you're in an everyday person's, 2596 02:07:19.829 --> 02:07:22.409 you're going to get a lot of heart and you're 2597 02:07:22.439 --> 02:07:23.560 going to get liver. 2598 02:07:23.779 --> 02:07:24.159 Kidney. 2599 02:07:24.380 --> 02:07:27.859 Kidney. You're going to get all that stuff. You know, 2600 02:07:27.939 --> 02:07:30.979 so that is stuff they love to eat. 2601 02:07:31.199 --> 02:07:36.439 Sure. A lot of cultures. Mexicans, menudo. Menudo's got tripe 2602 02:07:36.500 --> 02:07:38.619 in it and organ meat. Right. 2603 02:07:38.760 --> 02:07:43.050 And, you know, my brother-in-law, deceased now, but he was 2604 02:07:43.430 --> 02:07:46.159 Mexican and That's the first thing he insisted that my 2605 02:07:46.239 --> 02:07:49.140 sister learn how to make in terms of true Mexican 2606 02:07:49.180 --> 02:07:52.729 food was menudo. And he wanted that every Saturday, and 2607 02:07:52.810 --> 02:07:55.609 she loved to make it for him. So then she 2608 02:07:55.649 --> 02:08:00.619 made this pozole with cow feet in it. Whoa. And, 2609 02:08:00.779 --> 02:08:02.840 you know, got the hooves and everything in the pozole, 2610 02:08:02.880 --> 02:08:04.260 but cooks all day. 2611 02:08:04.279 --> 02:08:07.010 I remember when I was a kid, pickled pig's feet 2612 02:08:07.050 --> 02:08:07.750 was a big thing. 2613 02:08:07.850 --> 02:08:11.810 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so internal organs are really good. 2614 02:08:11.829 --> 02:08:15.890 You know that a Brazilian churrascaria is authentic if they 2615 02:08:15.949 --> 02:08:18.890 serve chicken hearts. Right. You know? And so if I 2616 02:08:18.909 --> 02:08:20.689 go to one and they don't have chicken hearts, I'm 2617 02:08:20.729 --> 02:08:21.430 quite disappointed. 2618 02:08:21.449 --> 02:08:22.380 It's westernized. 2619 02:08:22.479 --> 02:08:23.140 Yeah, yeah. 2620 02:08:23.460 --> 02:08:25.619 They're still great, but, yeah, I know what you mean. 2621 02:08:25.760 --> 02:08:25.979 Yeah. 2622 02:08:26.159 --> 02:08:28.220 Yeah, I went to one when I was in Brazil. 2623 02:08:28.340 --> 02:08:28.899 It was awesome. 2624 02:08:29.180 --> 02:08:31.659 Oh, yeah. It's Brazilian fast food. 2625 02:08:31.899 --> 02:08:34.539 Yeah, and it is fast, and it's amazing food, too. 2626 02:08:34.560 --> 02:08:36.340 It's like they know how to eat. If you're in 2627 02:08:36.380 -->

02:08:38.399 a rush, a chujascari is the best place to eat. 2628 02:08:38.649 --> 02:08:38.829 Yeah. 2629 02:08:38.850 --> 02:08:41.270 Because you sit down, you flip that cart over to green, 2630 02:08:41.289 --> 02:08:43.630 the food keeps— 20 minutes later, you're stuffed. Exactly. 2631 02:08:43.670 --> 02:08:47.680 Exactly. Exactly. And you ate much more nutrition than having 2632 02:08:47.720 --> 02:08:49.560 a McDonald's Big Mac or something like that. 2633 02:08:49.579 --> 02:08:50.539 Sure. And it's all you can eat. 2634 02:08:50.779 --> 02:08:51.000 Yeah. 2635 02:08:51.199 --> 02:08:52.399 Yeah. It's awesome. 2636 02:08:52.800 --> 02:08:55.359 I used to come out of the village and go 2637 02:08:55.420 --> 02:08:56.600 straight to one of those. I've been out of the 2638 02:08:56.619 --> 02:08:58.979 village for six months and I was really hungry and 2639 02:08:59.000 --> 02:09:01.479 I was coming out on my motorcycle. And the first 2640 02:09:01.539 --> 02:09:03.279 one I saw, I pulled over and that's and I 2641 02:09:03.319 --> 02:09:04.319 ate till I could barely move. 2642 02:09:04.560 --> 02:09:07.470 Did you eat monkey when you were in the jungle? Yeah. Yeah. 2643 02:09:07.739 --> 02:09:09.619 I didn't eat the brains, but they didn't offer them 2644 02:09:09.659 --> 02:09:11.890 either because that's the best part. 2645 02:09:12.529 --> 02:09:14.090 Would you have if they offered you some? 2646 02:09:14.500 --> 02:09:16.239 Yeah, I would have. I would have. I've tried a 2647 02:09:16.279 --> 02:09:18.939 lot of stuff there. And when I was doing my 2648 02:09:19.000 --> 02:09:22.319 field experience in southern Mexico in Chiapas, I spent some 2649 02:09:22.359 --> 02:09:26.899 time with the Celtales, the Celta people, descendants of the Mayas. And, 2650 02:09:27.140 --> 02:09:30.960 you know, I ate this stuff they chew up and 2651 02:09:31.020 --> 02:09:32.420 spit out and let ferment. 2652 02:09:32.699 --> 02:09:36.239 Oh, I've heard of that. That's a beverage. Is that 2653 02:09:36.319 --> 02:09:37.880 like an alcoholic beverage? Yeah. 2654 02:09:38.100 --> 02:09:39.479 And so I was trying to fit in. And so 2655 02:09:39.500 --> 02:09:43.029 they gave me just a little bit. And they said, 2656 02:09:43.050 --> 02:09:45.609 what'd you think? And I, I'm trying to be this 2657 02:09:46.130 --> 02:09:48.210 cool guy. And I said, I loved it. I hated it, 2658 02:09:48.569 --> 02:09:50.479 but I said, I loved it. And so they bring 2659 02:09:50.500 --> 02:09:55.899 me a big bowl. And so then that night I 2660 02:09:55.960 --> 02:10:00.020 was up, uh, with, um, things coming out of both 2661 02:10:00.119 --> 02:10:03.699 ends all night long. And the next morning, my blood 2662 02:10:03.739 --> 02:10:07.000 pressure was 60 over 40 and I had to be, uh, 2663 02:10:07.060 --> 02:10:08.899 flown out. They had to get me on a mule 2664 02:10:08.939 --> 02:10:12.239 and get me out to the nearest airstrip and out. And, uh, 2665 02:10:13.220 --> 02:10:15.119 But I did my bit. I was accepted as a 2666 02:10:15.180 --> 02:10:18.319 great gringo for eating this stuff, you know, for drinking it. 2667 02:10:18.399 --> 02:10:19.119 What happened to you? 2668 02:10:20.399 --> 02:10:25.239 Well, whatever it was, my body didn't like it. 2669 02:10:26.010 --> 02:10:28.789 So is it just like the bacteria in it, you think? 2670 02:10:29.350 --> 02:10:31.489 Probably. I think it had to be that because it 2671 02:10:31.510 --> 02:10:33.409 didn't gross me out. I didn't like the taste of it, 2672 02:10:33.449 --> 02:10:35.329 but it wasn't grossing me out. And it was a 2673 02:10:35.350 --> 02:10:37.909 happy time. We had little ribbons and stuff. We were 2674 02:10:37.949 --> 02:10:40.109 having a festa and I was sitting with the men 2675 02:10:40.189 --> 02:10:41.130 at the table. 2676 02:10:40.850 --> 02:10:43.500 And And their gut bacteria just knows how to handle it. 2677 02:10:44.100 --> 02:10:47.119 There you go. There you go. 2678 02:10:47.140 --> 02:10:53.199 It says that the human saliva creates the fermentation. 2679 02:10:53.220 --> 02:10:54.060 Yeah, that's right. 2680 02:10:54.300 --> 02:10:57.649 Come on, people. Isn't there a better way to get drunk? 2681 02:10:58.119 --> 02:10:59.010 Good Lord. 2682 02:10:59.149 --> 02:11:01.829 If you want to get drunk and you want it 2683 02:11:01.850 --> 02:11:03.350 bad enough, there it is. 2684 02:11:03.489 --> 02:11:05.289 And I bet that stuff you're not going to drink 2685 02:11:05.350 --> 02:11:08.289 every day because it's so disgusting. It's not going to 2686 02:11:08.310 --> 02:11:09.050 become a problem. 2687 02:11:09.270 --> 02:11:12.729 Once it's fermented, Nobody really cares, you know, who's around 2688 02:11:12.770 --> 02:11:13.310 that culture. 2689 02:11:13.470 --> 02:11:13.829 Boy. 2690 02:11:14.069 --> 02:11:14.729 You know, but. 2691 02:11:16.010 --> 02:11:17.050 What does a monkey taste like? 2692 02:11:18.210 --> 02:11:21.350 Well, there again, I don't have a vocabulary to describe 2693 02:11:21.390 --> 02:11:25.020 all these meats. It's a tough meat, but I pressure it. 2694 02:11:25.609 --> 02:11:26.189 I put the. 2695 02:11:26.210 --> 02:11:27.630 A crock pot? 2696 02:11:27.750 --> 02:11:29.630 Yeah, I put it in a pressure cooker over a fire. 2697 02:11:29.670 --> 02:11:31.729 I take in a pressure cooker, you know, not an 2698 02:11:31.770 --> 02:11:34.109 electric pressure cooker, obviously. One of these pressure cookers you 2699 02:11:34.149 --> 02:11:36.180 can set on top of the fire. And after I 2700 02:11:36.239 --> 02:11:39.079 pressure it, it's falling off the bone, and I take 2701 02:11:39.119 --> 02:11:40.899 the meat off. And I throw it in a bowl 2702 02:11:40.960 --> 02:11:42.979 and I put some manioc meal on top of that. 2703 02:11:43.380 --> 02:11:46.060 And then I cover it in Tabasco. And it's great. 2704 02:11:46.420 --> 02:11:48.000 It's very filling and it tastes really good. 2705 02:11:48.340 --> 02:11:50.739

Wow. Did you feel weird eating a monkey? 2706 02:11:52.779 --> 02:11:55.569 When you see the monkey and you put the little 2707 02:11:55.609 --> 02:11:58.470 monkey body inside the pressure cooker and it looks like 2708 02:11:58.510 --> 02:12:01.210 a baby, it doesn't look too good. But once you 2709 02:12:01.390 --> 02:12:03.270 open up the pressure cooker and it's all cooked and 2710 02:12:03.289 --> 02:12:05.350 the bones are separated from the meat and then it's 2711 02:12:05.390 --> 02:12:08.689 just meat floating in there, you know. And when you're 2712 02:12:08.750 --> 02:12:10.609 out in the jungle and you've been out there long enough, 2713 02:12:11.729 --> 02:12:14.770 just about any kind of meat sounds pretty good. I 2714 02:12:14.810 --> 02:12:18.699 worked with a group called the Wadi. I actually wrote 2715 02:12:18.720 --> 02:12:22.720 a 540-page grammar of their language, co-wrote it. And they 2716 02:12:22.739 --> 02:12:28.020 were cannibals up until 1962. And they had two, they 2717 02:12:28.039 --> 02:12:34.270 had Indo-cannibalism and Exo-cannibalism. Exo-cannibalism was eating their enemies and 2718 02:12:34.430 --> 02:12:38.470 Indo-cannibalism was eating their people. And So if you die 2719 02:12:38.529 --> 02:12:43.470 in the village at that time, up until 1962, they 2720 02:12:43.489 --> 02:12:45.989 keep your body. They call all the relatives. Your body 2721 02:12:46.029 --> 02:12:48.720 might sit there in the Amazon sun for three days. 2722 02:12:49.199 --> 02:12:52.779 And your relatives come from all over. And then they 2723 02:12:52.800 --> 02:12:57.729 cook you over a grill. And slowly, they roast the body. 2724 02:12:58.270 --> 02:13:00.930 And then they cut it into chunks. And they eat 2725 02:13:00.949 --> 02:13:02.090 them with, like, little toothpicks. 2726 02:13:02.789 --> 02:13:02.909 And. 2727 02:13:04.079 --> 02:13:05.859 They eat it until everything's gone. They eat the bones. 2728 02:13:06.340 --> 02:13:08.079 They eat the brains. They eat everything. 2729 02:13:08.100 --> 02:13:09.529 They eat human brains. Yeah. 2730 02:13:09.909 --> 02:13:13.050 And the purpose, as best I've been able to figure out, 2731 02:13:13.550 --> 02:13:15.810 anthropologists have tried to answer this, so my answer might 2732 02:13:15.850 --> 02:13:18.250 not be theirs, but it's based on interviews with the people, 2733 02:13:19.029 --> 02:13:23.180 is to give your relatives eternal life. Because they live 2734 02:13:23.220 --> 02:13:24.960 in you, and you're going to live in somebody else, 2735 02:13:24.979 --> 02:13:29.380 so you just continue living. But exocannibalism, I kill a 2736 02:13:29.399 --> 02:13:31.600 guy in warfare, I'm going to eat him like an animal. 2737 02:13:31.640 --> 02:13:33.560 I just chop him up and grill him and eat 2738 02:13:33.600 --> 02:13:35.199 it and throw the bones off into the forest. 2739 02:13:35.420 --> 02:13:35.899 Boy. 2740 02:13:35.960 --> 02:13:36.899 So that's totally different. 2741 02:13:37.539 --> 02:13:39.560 Some Native Americans practice that. 2742 02:13:40.000 --> 02:13:41.180 Yeah. 2743 02:13:43.199 --> 02:13:45.670 It's been said. But eating the brain, though, wouldn't that– 2744 02:13:45.760 --> 02:13:48.659 what is that disease? What is this called? Jakob Kretzfeld? 2745 02:13:48.859 --> 02:13:49.479 Is that what it's called? 2746 02:13:49.680 --> 02:13:51.560 Yeah, something like that. I should know that. 2747 02:13:51.979 --> 02:13:53.739 But it's mad cow disease essentially. 2748 02:13:53.819 --> 02:13:58.010 It's like that, yeah. So– but they don't eat people 2749 02:13:58.050 --> 02:14:01.810 all the time. They eat dead relatives. And if anybody's 2750 02:14:01.850 --> 02:14:04.130 ever gotten that disease, it's never been registered. 2751 02:14:04.310 --> 02:14:08.250 That's crazy. But I mean, even if you're eating dead relatives, 2752 02:14:08.289 --> 02:14:10.510 you eat a dead relative, I would imagine you can 2753 02:14:10.550 --> 02:14:11.550 get prion disease. 2754 02:14:12.170 --> 02:14:15.510 Yeah, but it depends on how many die. There's a 2755 02:14:15.529 --> 02:14:17.609 whole etiquette about it. You're never allowed to say that 2756 02:14:17.909 --> 02:14:19.800 it just tastes really good. You know, for example, you 2757 02:14:19.840 --> 02:14:20.319 can't say that. 2758 02:14:20.340 --> 02:14:22.920 You can't say delicious. Yeah, you can't say that. Uncle 2759 02:14:22.939 --> 02:14:23.439 Tom is yummy. 2760 02:14:23.520 --> 02:14:25.760 And I've talked to some of the older men who 2761 02:14:25.819 --> 02:14:29.229 have eaten, they're dead, and they say, oh, the The 2762 02:14:29.270 --> 02:14:32.010 babies taste really good, but you can't say that. 2763 02:14:33.270 --> 02:14:35.909 The babies taste really good. It's rough. 2764 02:14:36.729 --> 02:14:42.260 It's like human veal. But the Brazilian government and missionaries 2765 02:14:42.319 --> 02:14:44.300 put a stop to that in 62. 2766 02:14:44.300 --> 02:14:47.600 Good move. Why do they let it sit for three 2767 02:14:47.619 --> 02:14:48.439 days before they cook it? 2768 02:14:48.439 --> 02:14:50.270 Because it takes that long for the relatives to come 2769 02:14:50.770 --> 02:14:52.510 because they might be in other villages. So they've got 2770 02:14:52.529 --> 02:14:53.850 to send runners out to bring. 2771 02:14:53.710 --> 02:14:55.909 The whole family together. Doesn't the meat start rotting? Yeah. 2772 02:14:56.130 --> 02:14:57.979 It starts to smell pretty bad. And there are a 2773 02:14:57.979 --> 02:15:00.680 lot of stories about people puking after every bite. 2774 02:15:01.159 --> 02:15:06.020 Oh, these are people that could drink that puke beer. Yeah, yeah. Oh, 2775 02:15:06.039 --> 02:15:06.760 my God. 2776 02:15:07.060 --> 02:15:14.300 Yeah. So you realize cultural differences aren't that superficial. 2777 02:15:14.380 --> 02:15:17.680 What's also probably meat is probably extremely valuable to them. 2778 02:15:18.140 -->

02:15:20.220 And they just probably think, look, there's no reason for 2779 02:15:20.239 --> 02:15:21.979 this to go to waste when it could sustain us. 2780 02:15:22.340 --> 02:15:24.659 It would be very interesting to go back in time 2781 02:15:24.720 --> 02:15:28.229 and see how the customs started. They could have started 2782 02:15:28.300 --> 02:15:30.300 out of hunger, and then you dress it up with 2783 02:15:30.340 --> 02:15:34.720 some religious beliefs. Or the religious beliefs could have come first, 2784 02:15:34.819 --> 02:15:38.239 and you started doing it. But they do have oral 2785 02:15:38.279 --> 02:15:42.659 histories about it. But the oral histories never say we 2786 02:15:43.039 --> 02:15:45.319 were short of meat, so we ate Joe. We ate 2787 02:15:45.359 --> 02:15:51.300 our buddy. But they do say we want to help 2788 02:15:51.319 --> 02:15:53.420 them live in us, and we will live in somebody else. 2789 02:15:53.460 --> 02:15:55.159 So that's the explanation you get. 2790 02:15:55.479 --> 02:15:56.000 Wow. 2791 02:15:56.279 --> 02:15:56.899 Or that I got. 2792 02:15:57.619 --> 02:16:01.079 Wow. Well, when you got there a few years after, 2793 02:16:01.100 --> 02:16:01.279 it was. 2794 02:16:02.399 --> 02:16:04.939 Yeah, I didn't start working with them until 1985. Okay. 2795 02:16:04.960 --> 02:16:07.460 So it was 20-something years after. 2796 02:16:07.500 --> 02:16:09.420 But they still had stories about... Oh, yeah. 2797 02:16:09.439 --> 02:16:10.979 They still had a lot of stories about it. And, 2798 02:16:11.640 --> 02:16:14.409 you know, anybody over 30 had done it. 2799 02:16:15.050 --> 02:16:17.710 Is there any kind of cannibalism that goes on in 2800 02:16:17.729 --> 02:16:18.590 the Amazon still? 2801 02:16:19.789 --> 02:16:22.930 Probably, but none that I know of. But there are 2802 02:16:22.970 --> 02:16:26.329 still some uncontacted tribes. And there are still tribes that 2803 02:16:26.369 --> 02:16:28.930 behave one way when foreigners are around and another way 2804 02:16:28.970 --> 02:16:33.389 when they're not. I have a friend, she died last year, 2805 02:16:33.430 --> 02:16:37.629 but she was a missionary among those people from the 50s. 2806 02:16:38.479 --> 02:16:42.540 So she remembers the cannibalism. And she told me, although 2807 02:16:42.620 --> 02:16:45.139 some anthropologists deny this, but I think she knows them 2808 02:16:45.159 --> 02:16:48.620 better than any anthropologist who's ever been there, that she said, 2809 02:16:48.700 --> 02:16:50.620 I think when nobody's around, they still do that. 2810 02:16:52.219 --> 02:16:52.319 Yeah. 2811 02:16:52.360 --> 02:16:52.579 Yeah. 2812 02:16:53.290 --> 02:16:54.450 I bet they do, too. 2813 02:16:54.690 --> 02:16:55.409 They don't have warfare. 2814 02:16:55.430 --> 02:16:57.610 They listen to someone else. They don't have warfare. 2815 02:16:57.850 --> 02:17:02.209 Not anymore. They did. But that's been stopped, and they're 2816 02:17:02.270 --> 02:17:04.840 isolated from other groups that they used to be enemies with. 2817 02:17:04.940 --> 02:17:08.479 But there are still some who believe the old-time religion. 2818 02:17:09.559 --> 02:17:15.979 And the old-time religion says, eat your dead. So it's 2819 02:17:16.180 --> 02:17:19.069 quite possible that it happens. But what you find is 2820 02:17:19.100 --> 02:17:22.639 that since the 80s— Most of the groups that have 2821 02:17:22.700 --> 02:17:27.399 regular contact with the outside have undergone a very rapid 2822 02:17:27.479 --> 02:17:35.040 process of enculturation into Brazilian society. So even among the 2823 02:17:35.079 --> 02:17:38.649 Pita Hasnauth in the decades since I was there regularly, 2824 02:17:39.370 --> 02:17:42.209 I see pictures of them because my ex-wife still lives 2825 02:17:42.270 --> 02:17:45.930 right next to them. And she sends me short videos 2826 02:17:46.329 --> 02:17:48.049 and pictures of them when they come up to her 2827 02:17:48.870 --> 02:17:52.040 little wooden shack on... the Trans-Amazon Highway by their river. 2828 02:17:52.799 --> 02:17:55.819 And they're dressing very differently now. And some of them 2829 02:17:56.479 --> 02:17:59.579 are speaking some Portuguese. Not very well, but they're speaking 2830 02:17:59.620 --> 02:18:00.059 some Portuguese. 2831 02:18:00.079 --> 02:18:02.040 And your ex-wife is still a missionary? 2832 02:18:02.239 --> 02:18:07.219 Yeah, she's still trying to convert them. No conversions. They're 2833 02:18:07.239 --> 02:18:07.959 not going to convert. 2834 02:18:08.000 --> 02:18:12.309 Boy, you got to give it up to her for having, like, stick-to-itiveness. 2835 02:18:12.889 --> 02:18:15.270 I mean, that's really determined. 2836 02:18:15.709 --> 02:18:20.329 She is absolutely a New Testament first century Christian in 2837 02:18:20.389 --> 02:18:21.170 terms of her faith. 2838 02:18:21.409 --> 02:18:22.010 Wow. 2839 02:18:22.030 --> 02:18:24.670 And she doesn't deviate, and she's not afraid of anything. 2840 02:18:25.309 --> 02:18:29.450 I mean, we've been in many life-threatening situations, and I 2841 02:18:29.489 --> 02:18:32.510 don't tend to get afraid, and she definitely is not afraid, 2842 02:18:32.590 --> 02:18:33.110 not ever. 2843 02:18:33.729 --> 02:18:35.989 So is that because of her belief that she believes 2844 02:18:36.010 --> 02:18:38.069 that God is looking out for her and if she dies, 2845 02:18:38.110 --> 02:18:39.290 she's going to go to heaven anyway? 2846 02:18:39.530 --> 02:18:44.850 Yeah. The constant, a common refrain among Christian missionaries is, 2847 02:18:45.909 --> 02:18:50.430 I'm immortal until my task is done. God will protect 2848 02:18:50.489 --> 02:18:52.110 me until he's done with me. And so if he's 2849 02:18:52.129 --> 02:18:53.670 not done with me, I don't have to worry about it. 2850 02:18:53.670 --> 02:18:56.010 And if he is, great. Wow. 2851 02:18:56.799 --> 02:18:58.600 There's a lot of power in that too. I mean, 2852

02:18:58.620 --> 02:19:01.159 how many people just live in this constant state of 2853 02:19:01.399 --> 02:19:02.479 existential angst? 2854 02:19:02.979 --> 02:19:04.870 Yeah. That's something she's never had. 2855 02:19:05.149 --> 02:19:05.629 Wow. 2856 02:19:05.690 --> 02:19:06.790 She doesn't have that. 2857 02:19:06.809 --> 02:19:07.989 There's a lot of value to that. 2858 02:19:08.149 --> 02:19:10.530 It's what attracted me to her so much, besides the 2859 02:19:10.549 --> 02:19:13.719 fact that she was really cute, that attracted me to 2860 02:19:13.750 --> 02:19:14.950 her a lot when we first met. 2861 02:19:14.979 --> 02:19:17.139 Were you bummed out when she wanted a divorce because 2862 02:19:17.159 --> 02:19:18.040 you lost your faith? 2863 02:19:18.860 --> 02:19:21.420 Well, by that time, we weren't getting along that well 2864 02:19:21.459 --> 02:19:26.479 because she's very anti... She's not anti-science per se, but 2865 02:19:26.540 --> 02:19:32.489 she's anti-helicopter science. She feels that too many people who 2866 02:19:32.530 --> 02:19:36.190 do studies of indigenous groups and languages, come in for 2867 02:19:36.229 --> 02:19:38.739 a short time, go out and just speak a lot 2868 02:19:38.750 --> 02:19:41.379 of bullshit that nobody's ever going to test. And so 2869 02:19:41.420 --> 02:19:43.819 she hates that. And she's seen it happen with the Piraha. 2870 02:19:43.899 --> 02:19:46.700 I've seen it happen with the Piraha. I've seen a 2871 02:19:46.739 --> 02:19:49.040 couple of anthropologists and linguists go in and do doctoral 2872 02:19:49.059 --> 02:19:53.120 dissertations on them that are like totally ridiculous. But if 2873 02:19:53.219 --> 02:19:56.780 I say something, I'm a gringo. And I'm jealous because 2874 02:19:56.979 --> 02:19:57.879 it disagrees with me. 2875 02:19:58.479 --> 02:20:00.899 Do you think that they do that because no one's 2876 02:20:00.920 --> 02:20:03.020 going to check and so they just say, I want 2877 02:20:03.040 --> 02:20:04.719 to just write whatever I want to write? 2878 02:20:05.180 --> 02:20:10.040 That does happen. That definitely happens. It's also because people 2879 02:20:10.100 --> 02:20:12.579 realize it sounds really good to go study an indigenous 2880 02:20:12.620 --> 02:20:14.840 culture or an indigenous language. When you get there and 2881 02:20:14.860 --> 02:20:17.879 you find out this is so damn hard, I have 2882 02:20:17.979 --> 02:20:21.559 no words to put in how hard this is. 2883 02:20:21.620 --> 02:20:22.319 So they bullshit. 2884 02:20:22.479 --> 02:20:26.379 Yeah. Because, you know, you want to say to a Piraha, 2885 02:20:26.420 --> 02:20:29.389 what is this? And so how do you ask that? Well, 2886 02:20:30.250 --> 02:20:33.729 the phrase in Pirahas, he go, but where do you 2887 02:20:33.770 --> 02:20:36.670 get that phrase? You can't ask somebody how to ask, 2888 02:20:36.870 --> 02:20:39.270 what is this? Right. If you don't know the language. 2889 02:20:39.719 -->

02:20:42.680 So you have to watch them very carefully and somebody 2890 02:20:42.719 --> 02:20:45.200 might get something new or you might even give them 2891 02:20:45.280 --> 02:20:48.059 something new that they've never seen, hoping somebody's going to 2892 02:20:48.200 --> 02:20:50.180 ask them, what is this? So you can write it 2893 02:20:50.219 --> 02:20:52.079 down and then test it. And that's how I got it. 2894 02:20:52.610 --> 02:20:54.909 And so now you're fluent in Pirahas. 2895 02:20:55.350 --> 02:20:55.590 Yes. 2896 02:20:55.850 --> 02:20:58.129 So you can go and have a conversation with them 2897 02:20:58.229 --> 02:21:01.530 so you can explore some of these more nuanced subjects 2898 02:21:01.889 --> 02:21:03.549 and do it in their language. 2899 02:21:03.750 --> 02:21:03.969 Yes. 2900 02:21:04.389 --> 02:21:06.430 So you can kind of translate things in a way 2901 02:21:06.450 --> 02:21:07.889 that they're going to understand what you're saying. 2902 02:21:08.530 --> 02:21:11.430 Yes. And that's what takes the most practice. So when 2903 02:21:11.469 --> 02:21:15.469 I first translated the Gospel of Mark into Pitaha, I 2904 02:21:15.489 --> 02:21:18.149 thought I had done a marvelous job. And I would 2905 02:21:18.190 --> 02:21:20.409 read bits out to the Pitaha and they could explain 2906 02:21:20.450 --> 02:21:22.530 it to me and it seemed like they were understanding it. 2907 02:21:23.899 --> 02:21:27.440 But I used... a grammar that was largely based on English. 2908 02:21:27.479 --> 02:21:29.799 So when I read to them large sections, they were 2909 02:21:29.840 --> 02:21:32.540 totally lost. They couldn't understand it at all. And what 2910 02:21:32.559 --> 02:21:35.139 does that mean? It means I got it wrong. It 2911 02:21:35.200 --> 02:21:37.760 means that I haven't figured out the language as well 2912 02:21:37.799 --> 02:21:40.219 as I thought I did. And that's very humbling when 2913 02:21:40.239 --> 02:21:42.840 you spent so many years trying to do it. So 2914 02:21:42.889 --> 02:21:46.149 I had to start from the ground up again. And 2915 02:21:46.170 --> 02:21:48.709 these are all, you know, before you can learn a language, 2916 02:21:48.729 --> 02:21:51.670 you have to murder it. And before you can carry 2917 02:21:51.709 --> 02:21:54.750 on a conversation, you just feel like an idiot for years. 2918 02:21:56.110 --> 02:21:59.819 And for one thing, people who go in to do 2919 02:21:59.879 --> 02:22:02.420 a PhD dissertation on a language like this are going 2920 02:22:02.440 --> 02:22:04.840 to take one to two years of their life, and 2921 02:22:04.879 --> 02:22:08.430 that's it. And that's not enough time. It takes a 2922 02:22:08.489 --> 02:22:10.110 year to get fluent in the language. And I know 2923 02:22:10.170 --> 02:22:13.770 many people who've written about many different Amazonian languages who 2924 02:22:13.809 --> 02:22:16.129 can't speak a word of the language or speak very 2925 02:22:16.190 --> 02:22:18.770

little of it. They'll tell people they speak it, but 2926 02:22:18.950 --> 02:22:21.659 you go with them and you realize they don't speak 2927 02:22:21.700 --> 02:22:23.829 it that well. So if you don't speak it that well, 2928 02:22:23.870 --> 02:22:27.590 how can you ask them to distinguish subtle meaning differences? 2929 02:22:28.090 --> 02:22:33.110 You can't. And that means that a lot of, you know, 2930 02:22:33.639 --> 02:22:37.139 this kind of field work, which is so vital, is 2931 02:22:37.200 --> 02:22:39.360 not as reliable as we would like to think it is. 2932 02:22:40.120 --> 02:22:44.719 That's unfortunate. Yeah. Especially if a young student is coming 2933 02:22:44.760 --> 02:22:47.819 along and they're interested in pursuing it further and they're 2934 02:22:47.920 --> 02:22:50.629 starting off with some faulty assumptions. Yeah. 2935 02:22:51.229 --> 02:22:54.829 Yes, and the other problem is people learn a theory 2936 02:22:55.350 --> 02:22:59.610 in graduate school, and they take it as their job 2937 02:22:59.649 --> 02:23:02.850 of their dissertation, and this isn't limited to just linguistics 2938 02:23:02.889 --> 02:23:04.729 and anthropology, but they take it as the job of 2939 02:23:04.770 --> 02:23:10.329 their dissertation to support that theory. So, you know, it's 2940 02:23:10.350 --> 02:23:12.549 like Paul Simon says, a man sees what he wants 2941 02:23:12.610 --> 02:23:16.590 to hear and disregards the rest. When you're trying to 2942 02:23:16.629 --> 02:23:21.819 do theoretical research, field research, shouldn't be that theoretically motivated. 2943 02:23:21.860 --> 02:23:24.620 It should be basically descriptive. And then you can do 2944 02:23:24.659 --> 02:23:27.139 the theory later. But most people bring the theory into it. 2945 02:23:27.940 --> 02:23:34.250 And you can't totally divorce those two. But you see 2946 02:23:34.290 --> 02:23:36.770 a fact. So, for example, I've worked with Pinaha and 2947 02:23:36.790 --> 02:23:39.719 I'm asking for a certain kind of data. And they 2948 02:23:39.760 --> 02:23:44.010 don't give me what I wanted. And I thought, This 2949 02:23:44.069 --> 02:23:45.790 guy's not giving me what I want. What's wrong with him? 2950 02:23:45.829 --> 02:23:49.239 What am I saying wrong? Is he stupid? And then 2951 02:23:49.719 --> 02:23:52.079 as I learned to speak the language better, I realized, oh, 2952 02:23:52.139 --> 02:23:54.459 he's giving me exactly what I needed, and I was 2953 02:23:54.520 --> 02:23:58.020 too stupid to know it. And so that's hard. You're 2954 02:23:58.059 --> 02:24:00.860 the one working for the PhD. He's just a hunter-gatherer, 2955 02:24:00.879 --> 02:24:02.959 and it turns out he's at least as smart as 2956 02:24:03.000 --> 02:24:04.860 you are, and often he's able to know what you 2957 02:24:04.899 --> 02:24:08.049 need better than you do. And that's another part of 2958 02:24:08.090 --> 02:24:10.549 the humbling experience of doing field research. 2959 02:24:12.340 --> 02:24:15.649 The amount of commitment that's involved in going as deep 2960 02:24:15.709 --> 02:24:17.729 as you went with this is really crazy. 2961 02:24:18.829 --> 02:24:21.370 Yeah, I give demonstrations, and you can find some on 2962 02:24:21.389 --> 02:24:23.790 the Internet, where I take a language that I know 2963 02:24:23.829 --> 02:24:26.889 nothing about, and I switch to Pitaha, which I know 2964 02:24:26.909 --> 02:24:29.739 they know nothing about, and within 20 or 30 minutes, 2965 02:24:30.139 --> 02:24:33.500 I'm able to explain to the audience some basic facts 2966 02:24:33.559 --> 02:24:35.920 about how their grammar works and what their basic vocabulary, 2967 02:24:35.940 --> 02:24:37.840 you know, a lot of basic vocabulary. And I do 2968 02:24:37.879 --> 02:24:39.760 this to linguists. I've done it in front of as 2969 02:24:39.799 --> 02:24:44.180 many as 500 linguists at a time, Um, and, um, 2970 02:24:45.059 --> 02:24:46.879 then I tell them that a lot of people think 2971 02:24:46.920 --> 02:24:49.579 this is magic. This is really cool. I said, what 2972 02:24:49.620 --> 02:24:51.819 you've seen here is me working for about an hour. 2973 02:24:52.180 --> 02:24:54.459 Now you just do that every day for two years 2974 02:24:55.079 --> 02:24:58.860 and you're in, you know, and that's the part it's intensive. 2975 02:24:59.479 --> 02:25:02.059 I get a headache when I do these demonstrations because 2976 02:25:02.100 --> 02:25:06.309 my concentration is so hard and, you know, um, you 2977 02:25:06.350 --> 02:25:10.319 miss obvious things and you say bad things and, um, 2978 02:25:10.969 --> 02:25:13.950 You're just self-correcting all the time. You're just constantly, you 2979 02:25:13.989 --> 02:25:16.270 start off this wide and you're trying to get this narrow, 2980 02:25:16.649 --> 02:25:19.010 get down to this point of what it actually means. 2981 02:25:19.149 --> 02:25:22.729 And as you work through that, there are no shortcuts. 2982 02:25:23.209 --> 02:25:25.709 There's no shortcut to doing that. And you need to 2983 02:25:25.770 --> 02:25:28.750 be well-trained and you need to be very committed and 2984 02:25:28.770 --> 02:25:30.850 you need to have a little bit of talent and 2985 02:25:30.909 --> 02:25:35.920 work really hard. And when people see how easy it 2986 02:25:35.959 --> 02:25:39.000 looks and then they try it, they realize they're seeing 2987 02:25:39.020 --> 02:25:41.889 me at, 20 years down the road from when I started. 2988 02:25:43.750 --> 02:25:46.829 But yeah, there are methods to use to learn a 2989 02:25:46.870 --> 02:25:48.629 language where there's no language in common. 2990 02:25:48.930 --> 02:25:54.590 But it's got to be very difficult to achieve a 2991 02:25:54.889 --> 02:25:58.069 fluent understanding of their language. And the way you did 2992 02:25:58.129 --> 02:26:01.750 it from the ground, literally from starting from what is this? 2993 02:26:02.129 --> 02:26:05.069 How do you

say that? And then remembering it, piecing 2994 02:26:05.110 --> 02:26:07.450 it together. And then you have to write it down. 2995 02:26:07.469 --> 02:26:08.510 Then you're writing it down. 2996 02:26:08.750 --> 02:26:08.930 Right. 2997 02:26:09.309 --> 02:26:12.809 Oh, my goodness. And imagine if a guy like you 2998 02:26:12.889 --> 02:26:15.270 didn't do that. Like how many people are willing to 2999 02:26:15.329 --> 02:26:19.500 do that? Especially how many people that are, you know, 3000 02:26:19.639 --> 02:26:24.100 you're a linguist. You want to be a working intellectual. 3001 02:26:24.139 --> 02:26:27.180 You don't necessarily want to get malaria. You don't want 3002 02:26:27.200 --> 02:26:28.719 to get eaten by a jaguar. You don't want to 3003 02:26:28.760 --> 02:26:29.639 live in the jungle. 3004 02:26:30.979 --> 02:26:32.909 So there are people who would like to spend that 3005 02:26:32.940 --> 02:26:35.229 much time, but they don't have the funding. 3006 02:26:35.250 --> 02:26:36.209 Right. 3007 02:26:37.270 --> 02:26:41.129 You know, the National Science Foundation and the Brazilian National 3008 02:26:41.149 --> 02:26:44.489 Science Foundation and the British equivalent of the National Science 3009 02:26:44.510 --> 02:26:48.399 Foundation have all funded my research over the years. But 3010 02:26:48.780 --> 02:26:51.319 the bulk of my research was funded by being a missionary. 3011 02:26:52.500 --> 02:26:54.700 And so I had all these years because churches were 3012 02:26:54.739 --> 02:26:57.120 supporting me. But today... But did. 3013 02:26:57.059 --> 02:26:59.180 They ever ask, how come you haven't converted anybody yet? 3014 02:26:59.809 --> 02:27:02.110 Well, they ask me that all the time. I've had people... 3015 02:27:02.190 --> 02:27:05.030 I showed slides of the Pidaha to a church here 3016 02:27:05.069 --> 02:27:10.360 in Texas, in Dallas. And the people started getting up 3017 02:27:10.420 --> 02:27:13.120 and leaving. And I thought they were interested. They gave 3018 02:27:13.159 --> 02:27:15.549 me money to work in these people. And I said, 3019 02:27:15.569 --> 02:27:18.149 what's the problem? And they said, you're no good at all. 3020 02:27:18.649 --> 02:27:20.409 And I said, well, what are you seeing that you 3021 02:27:20.450 --> 02:27:23.530 don't like? They said, these people are naked. And if 3022 02:27:23.569 --> 02:27:25.889 you're a Christian missionary, why haven't you taught them to 3023 02:27:25.909 --> 02:27:29.040 wear clothes? And I said... Well, they don't want to 3024 02:27:29.079 --> 02:27:31.440 wear clothes. I said, what in the Bible says you 3025 02:27:31.459 --> 02:27:35.329 have to wear clothes? They said, Adam saw Eve's nakedness 3026 02:27:35.409 --> 02:27:38.989 and they were ashamed of each other. You must wear clothes. 3027 02:27:39.170 --> 02:27:41.600 You're not even teaching them the basics of Christianity. And 3028 02:27:41.620 --> 02:27:44.239 I thought, you know, I guess I'm not. You know, 3029 02:27:44.299 --> 02:27:46.360 I didn't realize that's not part of the basics of 3030 02:27:46.399 --> 02:27:47.399 Christianity for me. 3031 02:27:47.420 --> 02:27:47.590 But.... 3032 02:27:50.030 --> 02:27:51.350 You know, how do you tell a guy who wears 3033 02:27:51.409 --> 02:27:57.309 a loincloth that it's three inches too short? You know, 3034 02:27:58.250 --> 02:28:00.709 something's peeking out there. So it's not, they don't wear 3035 02:28:00.750 --> 02:28:03.610 it for modesty, you know. They wear it to keep 3036 02:28:03.649 --> 02:28:07.989 from sticks getting poked in your penis. And so modesty 3037 02:28:08.049 --> 02:28:10.610 has nothing to do with it. Why would you, you know, 3038 02:28:11.229 --> 02:28:13.829 to the average pita ha, a woman's breast is about 3039 02:28:13.870 --> 02:28:17.649 as erotic as an elbow. You know, you see a woman, 3040 02:28:17.690 --> 02:28:20.799 she's nursing her baby. And then the baby stops nursing 3041 02:28:20.860 --> 02:28:23.399 and she's still talking to you and her tits hanging out. 3042 02:28:23.520 --> 02:28:25.659 And it doesn't mean anything to her. And after a while, 3043 02:28:25.680 --> 02:28:27.340 it doesn't mean anything to you either. You know, what's 3044 02:28:27.360 --> 02:28:30.879 the big deal? And so to get across the idea 3045 02:28:30.920 --> 02:28:34.450 that it may be clothes that's causing this problem instead 3046 02:28:34.469 --> 02:28:38.590 of going naked, which then eliminates the problem of lust. 3047 02:28:39.370 --> 02:28:42.129 I mean, it's a hard concept for some churches, but 3048 02:28:42.190 --> 02:28:44.829 churches tend to get very impatient. But then the National 3049 02:28:44.889 --> 02:28:47.520 Science Foundation, for example, if I say I'm going to 3050 02:28:47.540 --> 02:28:51.979 go study language X, and I need funding for five years. Oh, no, 3051 02:28:52.020 --> 02:28:54.440 we fund those, and that's a year's funding. Yeah, but 3052 02:28:54.760 --> 02:28:56.520 nobody who goes out for a year really learns it 3053 02:28:56.559 --> 02:28:59.399 that well. I need to learn it a lot better. Oh, yeah, 3054 02:28:59.420 --> 02:29:01.180 we'll go somewhere else. We're not giving you the money 3055 02:29:01.219 --> 02:29:01.479 for that. 3056 02:29:02.479 --> 02:29:04.879 Oh, that's ridiculous. Are there really a lot of people 3057 02:29:04.899 --> 02:29:07.040 that are willing to do that kind of extensive work? 3058 02:29:07.260 --> 02:29:08.159 I wouldn't say a lot. 3059 02:29:08.549 --> 02:29:10.110 But enough to do it? 3060 02:29:10.440 --> 02:29:17.270 Well, there's 8,000 languages, and there's maybe 2,000. 3,000, let's 3061 02:29:17.309 --> 02:29:21.049 say 5,000 linguists in the whole world, and only a 3062 02:29:21.270 --> 02:29:23.190 small percentage of them want to do this kind of work. 3063 02:29:23.750 --> 02:29:25.290 The rest of them, most of them want to do 3064 02:29:25.350 --> 02:29:27.170 Chomsky's kind of work, where you

sit at your desk 3065 02:29:27.590 --> 02:29:30.110 and you say, language has this property, and it must 3066 02:29:30.290 --> 02:29:34.110 also have this property. And so the rubber's never meeting 3067 02:29:34.159 --> 02:29:37.780 the road. I mean, if you can do your field 3068 02:29:37.819 --> 02:29:41.360 research on database, I shouldn't say that because that's what 3069 02:29:41.399 --> 02:29:43.659 my son does. He's also a linguist, and he grew 3070 02:29:43.700 --> 02:29:46.840 up in an Indian tribe And he also did a 3071 02:29:46.879 --> 02:29:49.379 dissertation on another tribe that he learned to speak the language. 3072 02:29:49.819 --> 02:29:52.280 But nowadays, he goes through databases and comes up with 3073 02:29:52.299 --> 02:29:57.479 statistical generalizations. And it's pretty interesting. But he'll tell me 3074 02:29:57.520 --> 02:29:58.819 flat out, he said, yeah, I don't want to do 3075 02:29:58.860 --> 02:30:02.000 that fieldwork anymore. That's really demanding, even though he grew 3076 02:30:02.059 --> 02:30:04.500 up there. And that's the way most people are. 3077 02:30:05.040 --> 02:30:10.020 How many more cultures that have completely different languages and 3078 02:30:10.069 --> 02:30:14.780 completely different sets of rules and structure are out there 3079 02:30:14.840 --> 02:30:15.670 that we're not aware of? 3080 02:30:17.690 --> 02:30:21.290 Well, when I was, back in the 80s, they used 3081 02:30:21.309 --> 02:30:24.590 to say there's about 5,000 languages. So 20 years later, 3082 02:30:24.590 --> 02:30:30.270 21 years later, we're saying, or 31 years later, we're 3083 02:30:30.309 --> 02:30:34.280 saying there are 8,000. Languages die out at the rate 3084 02:30:34.340 --> 02:30:37.879 of about one every two weeks. So they're dying. And 3085 02:30:38.360 --> 02:30:41.100 once they die, we can never recover that information. But 3086 02:30:41.239 --> 02:30:44.879 also languages are being born. on a regular basis because 3087 02:30:45.540 --> 02:30:48.459 you talk like who you talk with. So why are 3088 02:30:48.500 --> 02:30:53.200 Portuguese and Spanish separate languages? Because you've got the Eber 3089 02:30:53.250 --> 02:30:56.190 River and you've got natural divides in that part of 3090 02:30:56.229 --> 02:30:59.270 the Iberian Peninsula. And so they stop talking to each 3091 02:30:59.329 --> 02:31:02.190 other and so their speech diverges. That's how Latin became 3092 02:31:02.309 --> 02:31:07.850 French and Romanian and Germanic became English. So they stop 3093 02:31:07.889 --> 02:31:10.969 talking to each other. So as soon as people stop talking, 3094 02:31:11.389 --> 02:31:14.889 their language evolves. And they have different languages. So British 3095 02:31:14.950 --> 02:31:19.049 English and American English have evolved apart. And yet at 3096 02:31:19.069 --> 02:31:21.670 the same time, we have television and movies and things 3097 02:31:21.709 --> 02:31:25.809 that keeps them sort of together. But if you don't 3098 02:31:25.870 --> 02:31:30.350 have media and you don't have that, then eventually they're talking. 3099 02:31:31.690 --> 02:31:33.149 They're not talking with each other at all and they 3100 02:31:33.170 --> 02:31:36.940 become different languages. And that's where most languages come from. 3101 02:31:37.299 --> 02:31:40.879 Wow. And there's got to be a lot of these 3102 02:31:40.920 --> 02:31:42.930 tribes that aren't talking to each other. And how many 3103 02:31:42.950 --> 02:31:46.120 of these tribes have been investigated, and how many people 3104 02:31:46.139 --> 02:31:49.379 have been embedded? Are there tribes out there where no 3105 02:31:49.500 --> 02:31:52.559 one has ever examined the language, no one's ever embedded 3106 02:31:52.579 --> 02:31:53.680 themselves in their culture? 3107 02:31:55.360 --> 02:31:59.159 There probably are over 1,000 where no one's gone there, 3108 02:31:59.200 --> 02:32:02.739 but there are a couple of thousand where no scientist 3109 02:32:02.799 --> 02:32:05.219 has gone there to study their language or their culture. 3110 02:32:05.239 --> 02:32:06.159 A couple thousand. 3111 02:32:06.299 --> 02:32:08.809 Yeah, a couple thousand, I would say, if not more. 3112 02:32:09.309 --> 02:32:11.870 And they probably have completely different languages. 3113 02:32:12.190 --> 02:32:15.870 Yeah, you know, we're worried, and we should be, about 3114 02:32:15.889 --> 02:32:19.110 the disappearance of certain bird species and all these other 3115 02:32:19.129 --> 02:32:22.149 kinds of species. And we should be concerned about that. 3116 02:32:22.850 --> 02:32:26.190 But we're not concerned enough about the disappearance of these 3117 02:32:26.250 --> 02:32:30.209 languages and how the new languages are arising. And why 3118 02:32:30.250 --> 02:32:32.590 should we be concerned? Well, for one thing, every language 3119 02:32:33.350 --> 02:32:37.350 is like a library. It's a repository of information that 3120 02:32:37.450 --> 02:32:41.340 is lost when they switch to Portuguese. Because Portuguese doesn't 3121 02:32:41.379 --> 02:32:43.500 have all the same knowledge embedded in it. It doesn't 3122 02:32:43.540 --> 02:32:45.979 have the same way of talking about the world. There's 3123 02:32:46.020 --> 02:32:50.620 a lot that's missing. Every pitahã, every child, every woman, 3124 02:32:50.729 --> 02:32:54.469 every man knows the name of every species of plant 3125 02:32:54.610 --> 02:32:58.030 and animal in their environment. They will never just say tree. 3126 02:32:58.370 --> 02:33:00.709 Like I walked with the pitahã into the jungle and 3127 02:33:00.750 --> 02:33:03.190 they said, this is what we call this. And so 3128 02:33:03.229 --> 02:33:04.760 I write it down. What do you call it? 3129 02:33:04.889 --> 02:33:05.110 Tree. 3130 02:33:05.129 --> 02:33:07.309 What do you call that over there? Tree. 3131 02:33:07.329 --> 02:33:07.469 Tree. 3132 02:33:08.149 --> 02:33:08.940 And what's that over

there? 3133 02:33:09.229 --> 02:33:09.440 Tree. 3134 02:33:09.549 --> 02:33:11.450 They said, you just have one word for all these things. 3135 02:33:12.270 --> 02:33:15.610 But they're calling them by the species name. And I'm thinking, well, 3136 02:33:16.149 --> 02:33:17.790 I told them, I said, well, there's some Americans who 3137 02:33:17.829 --> 02:33:19.469 do know all the different names, but I'm just not 3138 02:33:19.549 --> 02:33:21.649 one of them. But they find it hard to believe 3139 02:33:21.690 --> 02:33:24.750 that any American could get by without that knowledge of 3140 02:33:24.889 --> 02:33:30.170 their environment. So when that language goes, we've lost the difference. 3141 02:33:30.190 --> 02:33:32.969 So a friend of mine did a study on how 3142 02:33:33.309 --> 02:33:36.510 a group in the Amazon classify birds. And they don't 3143 02:33:36.569 --> 02:33:41.010 classify them based on their anatomy like Western science. They 3144 02:33:41.049 --> 02:33:44.299 classify them based on what they eat. And so if 3145 02:33:44.340 --> 02:33:46.959 you know their classification, you know what all these birds eat. 3146 02:33:47.440 --> 02:33:49.360 And you know how to deal with those birds to 3147 02:33:49.420 --> 02:33:52.700 capture them or to follow them. And when that language 3148 02:33:52.760 --> 02:33:58.450 is gone, all that knowledge is gone. So it's like 3149 02:33:59.510 --> 02:34:02.250 the Library of Congress has been blown up or something 3150 02:34:02.409 --> 02:34:04.850 when you lose a language. And why do new languages 3151 02:34:04.889 --> 02:34:07.170 come into being? What are the conditions? And what does 3152 02:34:07.209 --> 02:34:09.450 all this mean for us being human beings? How do 3153 02:34:09.489 --> 02:34:12.299 we know ourselves better? How are we to understand our 3154 02:34:12.379 --> 02:34:16.059 species if we don't study all the different exemplars of 3155 02:34:16.120 --> 02:34:21.020 our species? And that's the challenge. And that's what keeps 3156 02:34:21.059 --> 02:34:23.659 the work exciting. But it also is what makes it 3157 02:34:23.680 --> 02:34:28.930 a challenge. Because you tell a really bright 25-year-old or 3158 02:34:28.950 --> 02:34:32.920 24-year-old PhD student, okay, now you have to take off 3159 02:34:32.930 --> 02:34:36.840 to the jungle for three years or four. And they're thinking, 3160 02:34:37.659 --> 02:34:40.059 I could get a job without doing that. You know, 3161 02:34:40.219 --> 02:34:41.739 I don't need to go spend four years in the 3162 02:34:41.780 --> 02:34:44.159 jungle to get a job. And, you know, a professor 3163 02:34:44.200 --> 02:34:46.440 is a pretty cushy job. It doesn't pay well, but 3164 02:34:47.120 --> 02:34:49.379 it's also, it's not like, you know, it's not like 3165 02:34:49.459 --> 02:34:52.120 real labor. And I told, people tell me how hard 3166 02:34:52.180 --> 02:34:53.879 professors work. I said, yeah, well, you know, it does 3167 02:34:53.899 -->

02:34:55.579 take a lot of hours, but I'd rather do this 3168 02:34:55.620 --> 02:34:58.030 than run a jackhammer because I ran a jackhammer. And 3169 02:34:58.069 --> 02:34:59.569 I'll tell you, this is a lot easier than running 3170 02:34:59.590 --> 02:35:03.989 a jackhammer. So, um, But you go off to the 3171 02:35:04.049 --> 02:35:07.489 field and you spend this time. Ironically, anthropologists seem more 3172 02:35:07.549 --> 02:35:09.809 prepared to do this than linguists. And the other ironic 3173 02:35:09.850 --> 02:35:13.489 thing is I know, this is anecdote, I know more 3174 02:35:13.549 --> 02:35:16.399 anthropologists who speak the language fluently than I know linguists 3175 02:35:16.430 --> 02:35:19.899 who speak the language fluently, which I have to put 3176 02:35:19.959 --> 02:35:24.420 down to the pernicious influence of certain theories and linguistics 3177 02:35:24.920 --> 02:35:26.719 that makes people think they don't have to learn a 3178 02:35:26.780 --> 02:35:30.280 language to know how it works. And I tell people, 3179 02:35:30.319 --> 02:35:32.079 when you're going off to do fieldwork, I did write 3180 02:35:32.120 --> 02:35:34.100 a field manual. And I say, the first six months, 3181 02:35:34.540 --> 02:35:37.479 just work on learning the language. Don't take many notes. 3182 02:35:38.040 --> 02:35:40.079 Take notes of words and stuff. So I had a 3183 02:35:40.120 --> 02:35:42.159 goal where I wanted to learn 10 new words a day. 3184 02:35:42.620 --> 02:35:46.559 And I kept a little spiral notebook clip in my 3185 02:35:46.620 --> 02:35:49.280 belt buckle. And I would walk around learning these things. 3186 02:35:49.299 --> 02:35:51.020 And I want to learn new words and write those down. 3187 02:35:51.700 --> 02:35:54.600 And then I would spend the evening memorizing those words. 3188 02:35:54.639 --> 02:35:56.409 And I would try them out again the next day. 3189 02:35:56.420 --> 02:35:58.399 And I'd try to make sentences with them. And when 3190 02:35:58.440 --> 02:36:00.520 people start laughing at you, you know that I didn't 3191 02:36:00.540 --> 02:36:02.680 get that right. And sometimes they like to teach you 3192 02:36:02.700 --> 02:36:06.299 dirty words, right? They think that's hilarious. You know, you'll ask, 3193 02:36:07.620 --> 02:36:09.780 so then I, you know, you want, how do you 3194 02:36:09.829 --> 02:36:12.370 learn the words for genitals, for example? That's kind of 3195 02:36:12.409 --> 02:36:14.729 an embarrassing thing if you stop and think about it. 3196 02:36:15.110 --> 02:36:17.229 So I asked, I started to ask the guy, I said, 3197 02:36:17.250 --> 02:36:18.670 what do you call that? You know, pointed to his 3198 02:36:18.690 --> 02:36:22.590 dick and he said, And he calls, he, you know, 3199 02:36:22.610 --> 02:36:23.450 he says, I'm not going to tell you, but he 3200 02:36:23.489 --> 02:36:25.790 calls a little boy over who's naked and he shows 3201 02:36:25.809 --> 02:36:27.190 me every part of his body. And he said, you 3202 02:36:27.219 --> 02:36:29.440 call this, this and this, that and this, that. And 3203 02:36:29.479 --> 02:36:32.739 then he says, but the names change once they start 3204 02:36:32.780 --> 02:36:37.459 to grow hair. So penis as a boy is different 3205 02:36:37.500 --> 02:36:40.219 from penis as a man and vagina as a girl 3206 02:36:40.299 --> 02:36:43.329 is different from vagina as a woman. And so, you know, 3207 02:36:43.350 --> 02:36:47.530 how do you get those words? You've got to count 3208 02:36:47.590 --> 02:36:49.350 on close friendships, right? 3209 02:36:51.350 --> 02:36:53.030 Like I said at the beginning of this, man, you've 3210 02:36:53.069 --> 02:36:57.610 had a fascinating life. You really have. It's very, very interesting. 3211 02:36:57.969 --> 02:37:01.049 I really appreciate you sharing everything today. It was really, 3212 02:37:01.350 --> 02:37:01.850 really fun. 3213 02:37:02.469 --> 02:37:03.530 Thank you very much for having me. 3214 02:37:03.530 --> 02:37:08.829 I enjoyed it. Jamie, pull up his book. Well, books, 3215 02:37:08.989 --> 02:37:13.610 I should say. This one, Daniel Everett, Don't Sleep, There 3216 02:37:13.670 --> 02:37:20.260 Are Snakes. The Life and Language... In the Amazon jungle, 3217 02:37:20.420 --> 02:37:21.340 Amazonian jungle. 3218 02:37:21.809 --> 02:37:23.850 That's what they say to each other each night before 3219 02:37:23.870 --> 02:37:27.209 they go to bed. Don't sleep, there are snakes. 3220 02:37:30.340 --> 02:37:31.979 Amazing. Thank you very much. 3221 02:37:32.059 --> 02:37:33.299 Really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. 3222 02:37:33.319 --> 02:37:34.969 It was awesome. Bye, everybody.