บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Modeling Pyramid: Predatory Agencies, Cindy Crawford, and St. Bart’s Secrets

in the copy that you're holding, it goes through 1994. 40 00:02:10.629 --> 00:02:15.490 So through the height of the supermodels. Then there have 41 00:02:15.530 --> 00:02:19.219 been a series of updates. And so the current version 42 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.129 that you can buy on Amazon, goes through 2011 and 43 00:02:23.270 --> 00:02:25.449 actually has the name Jeffrey Epstein. 44 00:02:26.250 --> 00:02:28.189 So you cover some of that. I know there's been 45 00:02:28.270 --> 00:02:33.289 so many legit models that also got sucked into that 46 00:02:33.669 --> 00:02:35.069 world unknowingly. 47 00:02:37.090 --> 00:02:38.810 So does it cover some of that? 48 00:02:39.389 --> 00:02:42.409 You know, Cindy Crawford told me that when she first 49 00:02:42.469 --> 00:02:45.580 went to Milan, which was a hotbed of sleazy guys 50 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:48.860 trying to dive into the pants of models, both to 51 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:52.629 get their money and to get other things, Um, she 52 00:02:53.110 --> 00:02:56.849 was never harassed and she said that she always thought 53 00:02:56.870 --> 00:02:59.449 that it was because some girls just had that thing 54 00:03:00.169 --> 00:03:02.550 where it said this one don't touch. 55 00:03:02.629 --> 00:03:03.810 She's worth too much money. 56 00:03:05.169 --> 00:03:08.750 So yes, uh, you know, lots of models right now, 57 00:03:09.129 --> 00:03:11.569 just the other day, Carrie Otis, who was a pretty 58 00:03:11.620 --> 00:03:16.000 top model in the mid nineties filed a new lawsuit 59 00:03:16.020 --> 00:03:18.240 against the guy who used to run elite models in Paris. 60 00:03:19.830 --> 00:03:22.990 and it was on behalf of, she's trying to do 61 00:03:23.009 --> 00:03:26.770 a class action suit because the statute of limitations has 62 00:03:26.870 --> 00:03:29.189 run out on this guy. His name is Gérald Marie, 63 00:03:29.219 --> 00:03:31.240 and he's one of the main characters in the book model. 64 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:34.639 Well, the reason I have the book is because, I 65 00:03:35.379 --> 00:03:37.219 don't know how many years ago it was, maybe like 66 00:03:37.219 --> 00:03:41.240 10 years ago, my agent called me and was like, 67 00:03:42.139 --> 00:03:46.099 this guy wants to meet you to maybe collaborate I 68 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:48.469 don't know if they had the rights to your book 69 00:03:48.620 --> 00:03:52.169 or to try to do like a television series. And 70 00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:55.110 so reading it and I just gave, it didn't really 71 00:03:55.129 --> 00:03:58.129 go past more than just like a meeting. I don't 72 00:03:58.150 --> 00:04:00.650 know what happened with it, but I was like, oh 73 00:04:00.689 --> 00:04:03.569 my God, this would make such a great television show. 74 00:04:04.349 --> 00:04:07.169 And being that it would be like, you know, that 75 00:04:07.310 --> 00:04:11.289 time of 80s, 90s and like what it was like, 76 00:04:11.330 --> 00:04:13.229 he wanted to do a show

kind of about the 77 00:04:14.330 --> 00:04:18.240 main character modeling people that were a couple that then 78 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:23.329 both ran their agencies. And how many times did that 79 00:04:23.389 --> 00:04:25.850 come about, being the author, that people wanted to try 80 00:04:25.870 --> 00:04:27.769 to make your book a series? 81 00:04:28.470 --> 00:04:32.389 Well, model, so there's a process called optioning, and that's 82 00:04:32.430 --> 00:04:35.959 where a producer or a star takes an option. They 83 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:37.459 give you a little bit of money to take the 84 00:04:37.500 --> 00:04:39.939 book off the market, and then they try to put 85 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:41.720 it together and make it into a movie or a 86 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:45.550 TV show. Model has been optioned. five or six times. 87 00:04:45.889 --> 00:04:49.889 It went to script twice. Once it was the next 88 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.920 thing that ABC was going to do as its movie 89 00:04:52.939 --> 00:04:55.560 of the week, and there was a regime change at ABC, 90 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:57.319 and it died a sad. 91 00:04:57.160 --> 00:04:57.959 And horrible death. 92 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.329 And then there was another one quite recently that almost 93 00:05:03.389 --> 00:05:06.910 made it, but finally just didn't make it. So we're 94 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:08.550 still waiting for Model the Movie. 95 00:05:09.290 --> 00:05:11.430 I mean, I feel like it's going to happen. I 96 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:13.009 feel like this appearance on. 97 00:05:12.970 --> 00:05:16.910 Juicy Scoop is going to be the tipping point. No, 98 00:05:16.990 --> 00:05:18.790 I really do think it could be great. 99 00:05:18.889 --> 00:05:23.910 And I think there's such a yearning for that nostalgia, 100 00:05:24.589 --> 00:05:30.949 that period of time, especially with younger viewers that are like, oh, 101 00:05:31.069 --> 00:05:34.889 what was life like before cell phones and social media? 102 00:05:35.050 --> 00:05:38.670 And there were real models and it wasn't just Instagram 103 00:05:38.730 --> 00:05:42.670 and influencers, and they want to jump back and escape 104 00:05:42.829 --> 00:05:46.329 to that era. So I think it would make a 105 00:05:46.389 --> 00:05:47.129 great series. 106 00:05:48.089 --> 00:05:50.670 And the heart of the book is really that moment 107 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:55.319 in the 70s and 80s when models emerged as real 108 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.920 celebrities instead of just niche celebrities. And that's precisely the 109 00:05:59.959 --> 00:06:02.079 movie that really ought to be made. People have tried 110 00:06:02.540 --> 00:06:04.759 and bad ones have been made, but no one's ever 111 00:06:04.819 --> 00:06:06.379 done one that got close to the truth. 112 00:06:07.259 --> 00:06:08.699 What exactly is the truth? 113 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:12.170 Because I guess someone that, you know, is maybe their 114 00:06:12.269 --> 00:06:15.509 age or a little bit younger, you know, of course, 115 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:18.470 everybody wanted to be a real model when I was 116 00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:21.470 in my all-girl Catholic high school. And there was like 117 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:26.610 the cheesy, what. 118 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:25.560 Was the guy's name? 119 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:28.819 He had like a modeling school. It's like escaping me 120 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:30.560 right now. 121 00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:32.379 Johnny Casablancas. 122 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:32.800 Yes. 123 00:06:33.939 --> 00:06:35.899 That was one of them. I think there was another one, 124 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:36.689 but that was one. 125 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.920 And you could take a course and the first course 126 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:43.379 is like etiquette. And then the next course is like 127 00:06:43.579 --> 00:06:47.170 actually putting outfits together. Then the third course is like 128 00:06:47.629 --> 00:06:50.250 having a little fashion show. And then the fourth course 129 00:06:50.949 --> 00:06:54.470 is expensive because you're actually going to get real headshots 130 00:06:54.529 --> 00:06:57.649 done with a professional photographer. And you've got to take 131 00:06:57.730 --> 00:07:01.949 the loop and pick out your thing. And so many 132 00:07:01.990 --> 00:07:04.439 girls were doing it thinking, oh, maybe I could be 133 00:07:04.449 --> 00:07:06.829 a model. And even like So many models were in 134 00:07:07.029 --> 00:07:09.949 music videos and stuff. So that was just like, oh, 135 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.060 let me put on some black nylons and a tiny 136 00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:15.600 black dress and just a red lip and slick back 137 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:19.420 my hair and look real chic. But back then it 138 00:07:19.459 --> 00:07:22.430 was so about you had to be tall enough. And 139 00:07:22.459 --> 00:07:23.990 if any girl tried to say she wanted to be 140 00:07:24.009 --> 00:07:27.170 a model and she was under, you know, five, eight 141 00:07:27.189 --> 00:07:30.709 and a half, everyone would be like, good luck, loser. 142 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:32.910 Like you're never going to make it. Like it's, it 143 00:07:32.949 --> 00:07:37.490 was such a different, time than today. When you look 144 00:07:37.529 --> 00:07:41.970 at like modeling and fashion and what drives someone being 145 00:07:42.029 --> 00:07:46.310 on the cover of a magazine, what is your point 146 00:07:46.329 --> 00:07:47.389 of view or perspective? 147 00:07:48.170 --> 00:07:50.810 Well, you know, what the book is really about is 148 00:07:51.009 --> 00:07:54.509 think about modeling as a pyramid and everything that you're 149 00:07:54.529 --> 00:07:57.029 just talking about is the very bottom of the pyramid 150 00:07:57.050 --> 00:07:59.850 where there's someone who's a checkout working behind the checkout 151 00:07:59.889 --> 00:08:03.269 counter at Walmart in the middle of Iowa and

wants 152 00:08:03.310 --> 00:08:06.389 to be a model. then as you ascend up the 153 00:08:06.430 --> 00:08:11.389 pyramid to the very top, that's the dirty part of 154 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:15.939 the business because there's a terrible elimination contest that goes on. 155 00:08:16.699 --> 00:08:21.240 And I always said that only a very few models 156 00:08:21.300 --> 00:08:23.680 can dance on the head of the pin of the industry. 157 00:08:24.259 --> 00:08:27.399 And obviously they're the stars. And by the way, as 158 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.540 far as height goes, Kate Moss can say, hey, take 159 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:37.090 that because she changed that. It's very, very difficult to 160 00:08:37.129 --> 00:08:40.889 get to the top of that pyramid. And a lot 161 00:08:41.029 --> 00:08:44.110 of horrible things can happen on the way up. And 162 00:08:44.129 --> 00:08:47.409 the business is structured in such a way that the 163 00:08:47.509 --> 00:08:51.690 predators are living at the bottom. And at the top, 164 00:08:51.730 --> 00:08:56.000 there are girls like Cindy Crawford who just were untouchables 165 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:57.440 and still are. 166 00:08:57.679 --> 00:08:59.299 And that continues to this day. 167 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:02.519 And with someone like a Cindy Crawford, I also feel 168 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:08.529 like her... Her story was one, just like anybody that 169 00:09:08.590 --> 00:09:14.269 unfortunately is more susceptible to be a victim, oftentimes is 170 00:09:14.309 --> 00:09:18.690 someone that doesn't have that family support, maybe didn't have the, 171 00:09:19.350 --> 00:09:22.610 you know, the strong kind of confidence in the home 172 00:09:22.710 --> 00:09:27.750 coming up. And the predator seeks those more vulnerable souls out. 173 00:09:28.889 --> 00:09:32.190 And they have a talent for it. And then there's 174 00:09:32.210 --> 00:09:34.990 certain people that were, like she said, in the same room, 175 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:39.200 also talented, but just, I think she was just very 176 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:43.080 lucky in that she came from this nice family. She, 177 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.460 you know, had gone to some schooling and had pursued 178 00:09:46.539 --> 00:09:49.879 it and just, and again, went kind of up the ranks. Yeah, 179 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:55.590 she skyrocketed, but she, it wasn't so plucked out and just... 180 00:09:56.350 --> 00:09:58.950 you know, no support, no mom, nothing. She had all that. 181 00:09:59.789 --> 00:10:03.769 And so I think that that's really interesting of like, 182 00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:07.259 and how difficult it must've been like for a mom 183 00:10:07.299 --> 00:10:10.220 to let their like 15 year old daughter go to 184 00:10:11.019 --> 00:10:14.220 Italy or Japan. But then you're looking at all these 185 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:16.419 super successful other models and you're like, well, if I 186 00:10:16.539 --> 00:10:20.269 don't let my daughter

go, then she could miss out 187 00:10:20.470 --> 00:10:25.769 on this time just like a professional sports player. Like 188 00:10:25.789 --> 00:10:29.370 you have that small window to make it. And if 189 00:10:29.389 --> 00:10:32.870 you don't make it by 22, good luck. 190 00:10:33.649 --> 00:10:37.690 In the summer of, I think it was 1988 or 1989, 191 00:10:37.690 --> 00:10:42.870 two 15, 16-year-old girls arrived in Paris. One was Stephanie Seymour, 192 00:10:42.929 --> 00:10:45.730 who came without her mother, and the other was Christy Turlington, 193 00:10:45.769 --> 00:10:49.509 who came with her mother. Christy Turlington was taken by 194 00:10:49.549 --> 00:10:52.009 the Ford agency, which was run on a kind of 195 00:10:52.090 --> 00:10:56.929 maternal basis. And Stephanie Seymour signed with Elite, which was 196 00:10:56.990 --> 00:11:00.549 Johnny Casablancas' agency, which was run on a kind of 197 00:11:00.669 --> 00:11:05.029 predatory basis. And Christy Turlington ended up happily married with 198 00:11:05.070 --> 00:11:08.899 a college degree, kids, runs a charity, is still a 199 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:12.320 working model. And Stephanie Seymour ended up with Absol Rose 200 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:16.059 and then Warren Beatty and then God knows who else. 201 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:19.350 And married to a guy who'd been in jail and 202 00:11:20.289 --> 00:11:22.350 is rarely heard from anymore. So I think that what 203 00:11:22.389 --> 00:11:26.000 you're saying holds true. You know, it's not just heredity. 204 00:11:26.009 --> 00:11:29.399 It's not what you're born with, although that's important. It's 205 00:11:29.460 --> 00:11:31.820 not just environment, which is whether you come from a 206 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:34.200 good family or not, because lots of top models have 207 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.639 come from messed up families. But it's also what you 208 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.509 have inside and your strength of character and your desire 209 00:11:41.570 --> 00:11:44.470 to succeed, which are two different things that are sometimes 210 00:11:44.529 --> 00:11:46.549 in opposition and sometimes work together. 211 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:49.070 And those are the ones who, the ones. 212 00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:52.330 Where it all works together, heredity, environment, and everything that's 213 00:11:52.389 --> 00:11:57.059 inside are the ones who become huge moneymakers and famous models. 214 00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.720 And they're the ones who end up on St. Bart's 215 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:03.100 shooting the St. Bart's, shooting the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. 216 00:12:03.899 --> 00:12:04.139 Yes. 217 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.169 So let's talk about that because, you know, Sports Illustrated 218 00:12:07.610 --> 00:12:11.289 has been in the news this year With the fashion 219 00:12:11.309 --> 00:12:15.009 show in the last few years, they've really expanded from 220 00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:17.960 what we knew it as, as just the top models 221 00:12:18.019 --> 00:12:21.190 got it, who was going to get the cover. and 222 00:12:21.210 --> 00:12:23.850 then you'd watch the whole filming of the shoot where 223 00:12:23.889 --> 00:12:26.129 they'd go to a specific place like St. 224 00:12:26.169 --> 00:12:27.710 Bart's and do the whole thing. 225 00:12:28.309 --> 00:12:30.980 And we got to see how it worked, how they 226 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:36.000 pose them, who the different photographers were. And it was 227 00:12:36.139 --> 00:12:39.620 really entertaining to kind of watch as a young girl 228 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:43.240 that just, you know, had just loved seeing beautiful places 229 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:49.000 with beautiful women in it. How cutthroat was that to 230 00:12:49.220 --> 00:12:53.220 try to make the Sports Illustrated back then between St. 231 00:12:53.259 --> 00:12:55.600 Bart's and modeling and all of it? 232 00:12:55.779 --> 00:12:58.000 Well, I don't really think it was cutthroat at all. 233 00:12:58.059 --> 00:13:00.639 It was a wonderful woman named Julie Campbell who ran 234 00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:04.129 the Sports Illustrated issues. And at that time, there was 235 00:13:04.309 --> 00:13:06.789 one photographer. His name was Walter Hughes Jr. And he 236 00:13:06.830 --> 00:13:09.250 was a lovely man who I actually knew when I 237 00:13:09.289 --> 00:13:11.429 was like five, six years old because he had started 238 00:13:11.509 --> 00:13:12.870 out as a sports photographer. 239 00:13:13.409 --> 00:13:15.129 And my father was a sports columnist. 240 00:13:15.710 --> 00:13:17.990 But, you know, I think with Sports Illustrated, you have 241 00:13:18.029 --> 00:13:22.690 the exact same fundamental question as you have with St. 242 00:13:22.730 --> 00:13:25.190 Bart's, the island. Now, how can an island and a 243 00:13:25.669 --> 00:13:27.029 sports magazine be alike? 244 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:29.980 Well, because they're both in a way brands and they 245 00:13:30.019 --> 00:13:32.700 both have to figure out ways to negotiate the path 246 00:13:32.740 --> 00:13:33.519 into the future. 247 00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:34.659 And St. 248 00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:37.539 Bart's started out as a rock in the ocean that 249 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:42.370 nobody loved and became the destination, the place to go. 250 00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:46.809 where Sports Illustrated would go to shoot its swimsuit issue 251 00:13:46.850 --> 00:13:50.309 because it was, in 1989, the year Sports Illustrated went there, 252 00:13:50.649 --> 00:13:51.529 the hottest. 253 00:13:51.289 --> 00:13:52.070 Island in the world. 254 00:13:52.629 --> 00:13:55.710 And then it only got hotter, just like Sports Illustrated did, 255 00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:59.169 for years and years and years. But now the magazine 256 00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:02.259 business is in decline and Sports Illustrated is in trouble, 257 00:14:02.299 --> 00:14:04.240 like all magazines are in trouble. And I

was a 258 00:14:04.259 --> 00:14:07.879 magazine writer for decades, so I certainly, I lived through this. 259 00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:08.799 St. 260 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:12.330 Bart's, in the same way, has become so popular that 261 00:14:12.409 --> 00:14:17.190 success has become its enemy. Will success kill Sports Illustrated? 262 00:14:17.230 --> 00:14:18.649 Will success kill St. 263 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:19.049 Barts? 264 00:14:19.690 --> 00:14:23.309 And the underlying issue in my new book, Treasured Island, 265 00:14:23.590 --> 00:14:27.830 is how does an island like that survive, not just survive, 266 00:14:28.409 --> 00:14:32.389 but continue to succeed and continue to be the sort 267 00:14:32.429 --> 00:14:35.789 of product it is at its peak? How do you 268 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:38.360 maintain that? And it's a very difficult balancing act. 269 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:44.000 So let's talk a little bit about your background as 270 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:47.500 a writer and then also your interest in putting you 271 00:14:48.539 --> 00:14:52.509 in this place where you could write with such great 272 00:14:52.549 --> 00:14:57.210 knowledge of these kind of people, whether they're supermodels or 273 00:14:57.370 --> 00:14:58.889 billionaires or both. 274 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:01.889 Tell us a little bit about that. 275 00:15:02.710 --> 00:15:04.620 As I said, my father was a sports writer. He 276 00:15:04.629 --> 00:15:06.789 worked for the New York Post. back in the old 277 00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:12.370 days when newspapers were important too. Planning on rewarding your 278 00:15:12.409 --> 00:15:13.190 staff this year? 279 00:15:13.750 --> 00:15:15.970 Struggling to choose between a shop gift card or a 280 00:15:16.009 --> 00:15:16.950 pay anywhere card? 281 00:15:17.669 --> 00:15:18.350 Stop choosing. 282 00:15:18.690 --> 00:15:21.149 With Options Card, your employees get both. 283 00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:24.240 They can spend with Ireland's favourite retailers or choose a 284 00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:25.639 card you can tap and pay with. 285 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:26.919 All in one reward. 286 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.539 You choose who to reward and how much. Options Card 287 00:15:30.860 --> 00:15:31.659 handles the rest. 288 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.659 It's valid for five years with no fees chipping away 289 00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:35.240 at the balance. 290 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.519 Make your rewards more rewarding. 291 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:40.169 Visit optionscard.ie today. 292 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:44.539 I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week 293 00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:47.659 on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who 294 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:52.000 have faced tremendous setbacks and yet somehow have found a 295 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:54.549 way to turn them into their greatest strengths. 296 00:15:54.730 --> 00:15:57.610 Life is one long lesson of chaos. 297 00:15:57.769 --> 00:16:00.250 I'm

heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints 298 00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:00.970 filed against me. 299 00:16:01.149 --> 00:16:03.299 When your free will was about to be taken from you, 300 00:16:03.450 --> 00:16:05.629 what would you do if it was given back? 301 00:16:05.850 --> 00:16:08.750 Where did that need come from where you thought that 302 00:16:08.789 --> 00:16:10.789 you had to succeed in order to feel loved? 303 00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:12.259 He said, I have a work dad. 304 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:13.179 I need a home dad. 305 00:16:13.389 --> 00:16:14.210 What happens next? 306 00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:15.710 When I came in, he started crying. 307 00:16:16.090 --> 00:16:20.529 Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not 308 00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:23.250 those hard moments that they go through. It's about what 309 00:16:23.289 --> 00:16:24.090 happens next. 310 00:16:24.470 --> 00:16:25.529 I decided to risk it all. 311 00:16:25.710 --> 00:16:28.470 I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work. 312 00:16:28.730 --> 00:16:30.629 Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches. 313 00:16:30.850 --> 00:16:32.809 You can use your voice even if it shakes. 314 00:16:33.029 --> 00:16:36.269 The stories are different, but the impact is the same. 315 00:16:36.450 --> 00:16:40.309 Only one question matters. What happens next? 316 00:16:47.110 --> 00:16:50.330 And so I grew up in Yankee Stadium and Shea 317 00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:52.070 Stadium and Madison Square Garden. 318 00:16:53.149 --> 00:16:55.009 My father covered the Knicks, go Knicks. 319 00:16:55.490 --> 00:16:57.980 And, you know, I have a Knicks championship ring back 320 00:16:58.009 --> 00:17:01.580 in my jewelry box from 1970 when the Knicks won 321 00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:04.619 the championship for the second to last time, although maybe 322 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.720 they'll win again this year. And the thing was that 323 00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:13.569 when I was growing up, sports was something to be 324 00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:16.910 obsessed with. But for people my age, rock and roll 325 00:17:16.950 --> 00:17:18.200 was something even more to. 326 00:17:18.140 --> 00:17:20.279 Be obsessed with. And so I was obsessed with rock 327 00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:20.559 and roll. 328 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:24.579 And I started writing for rock magazines and newspapers about 329 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:27.279 rock stars. And for 10 years I did that. 330 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.599 I went on the road. I traveled with bands. I 331 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.680 wrote about bands. And one of the things that you. 332 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:39.039 Noticed was that fashion models gravitated to rock stars. And 333 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:43.000 rock stars gravitated to fashion. And so I started getting 334 00:17:43.059 --> 00:17:47.509 interested in the world of fashion. And after about 10 335 00:17:47.509 --> 00:17:48.970 years of rock and roll, I'd had enough. 336 00:17:49.049 --> 00:17:52.720 I needed a change. And I started writing about fashion photography. 337 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:58.180 And it was partly Cherche La Femme. I liked pretty girls. 338 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:03.000 I liked pretty women. Curiously, I almost immediately got married 339 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:07.220 to a fashion designer. But I had then a 10-year 340 00:18:07.289 --> 00:18:09.750 run of covering the fashion world, going to Milan, going 341 00:18:09.789 --> 00:18:12.369 to Paris, going to London, going to the shows in 342 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:14.950 New York, sitting in the front row at shows. And 343 00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:16.809 who did you sit next to if you were in 344 00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:20.190 the front rows of shows? The wife of the billionaire, 345 00:18:20.369 --> 00:18:24.019 the princess this, the countess that. And so you also 346 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.140 become fascinated with the people who are sitting around you 347 00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:30.220 and who you have access to. And so I slowly 348 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:35.329 evolved into writing about rich people, celebrated people, not movie stars, 349 00:18:35.950 --> 00:18:38.869 because I'd already had my 10-year run of writing about stars, 350 00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:40.940 and it was getting a little tired for me. But... 351 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:48.319 the people who were richer than the stars, maybe less famous, 352 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:51.920 but more important in many ways. And I had a 353 00:18:51.980 --> 00:18:54.119 good tenure run at New York, first at the New 354 00:18:54.140 --> 00:18:56.240 York Times and then at New York Magazine, writing about 355 00:18:56.289 --> 00:18:56.789 all of that. 356 00:18:57.430 --> 00:18:59.789 During that time, I started writing for travel magazines. 357 00:19:00.349 --> 00:19:02.710 And what I wrote about were the places where rich 358 00:19:02.750 --> 00:19:03.809 and famous people went. 359 00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:06.930 And that was how I first encountered St. Barts. 360 00:19:06.990 --> 00:19:11.269 I started going there myself in about 1989 or 1990. 361 00:19:11.900 --> 00:19:16.720 And it became my go-to destination for my vacations. And 362 00:19:16.779 --> 00:19:19.400 I didn't go Christmas week when all the billionaires were 363 00:19:19.420 --> 00:19:22.849 there because I wanted a week off, not another week on. 364 00:19:23.509 --> 00:19:25.410 I didn't want to go to the beach and see 365 00:19:25.450 --> 00:19:28.230 Calvin Klein coming out of the surf. I wanted to 366 00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:31.410 go to the beach and be left alone. So I 367 00:19:31.470 --> 00:19:34.930 did that for 10 years. And then as the magazine 368 00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:39.630 business started to decline after 1995 or so, I started 369 00:19:39.650 --> 00:19:40.190 writing books. 370 00:19:40.269 --> 00:19:40.930 I wrote Models. 371 00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:44.369 And then from there, I segued into writing

books that 372 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:48.109 were social histories that looked at the relationship between rich 373 00:19:48.170 --> 00:19:51.640 people and real estate and what their choices in real 374 00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:54.960 estate told you about the upper classes and about the 375 00:19:54.980 --> 00:19:56.759 world we live in. So I wrote a book about 376 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.579 a apartment building in New York called 740 Park that 377 00:20:00.619 --> 00:20:04.099 was very old school New York wealth and how the 378 00:20:04.299 --> 00:20:07.059 old school New York wealth evolved. Then I wrote a 379 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:09.859 book about Los Angeles called Unreal Estate that was about 380 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:14.900 how Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Holmby Hills evolved over 50, 381 00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:17.789 75 years. Then I wrote a book about a condo 382 00:20:17.809 --> 00:20:20.029 building in New York and the book was called House 383 00:20:20.069 --> 00:20:22.970 of Outrageous Fortune and it was about 15 Central Park West, 384 00:20:23.609 --> 00:20:27.039 which was full of all of the international oligarchs and 385 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.500 hedge funders and private equity people, the kind of people 386 00:20:31.539 --> 00:20:34.039 who have no relationship with the world in which they live. 387 00:20:34.460 --> 00:20:37.700 They helicopter in, helicopter out, have private security, live in 388 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.460 a bubble, sort of the Jeff Bezos's of the world. 389 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:43.539 And then I was looking for a next book and 390 00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:46.369 I thought, well, where does Jeff Bezos go on vacation? 391 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:50.170 To the same place that I've gone for almost 40 years, St. Barts. 392 00:20:50.930 --> 00:20:53.069 Okay, a couple of questions. It's fascinating. 393 00:20:53.529 --> 00:20:56.730 When you're writing about these people and you're sitting in 394 00:20:56.769 --> 00:21:01.049 the front row of the fashion and the And that's 395 00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:04.309 really interesting that they, of course, the billionaire's wife is 396 00:21:04.349 --> 00:21:06.569 going to be invited because she's the top customer and 397 00:21:06.630 --> 00:21:08.650 she's going to wear these clothes. 398 00:21:08.710 --> 00:21:10.190 And she's way more. 399 00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:15.660 Important to the fashion brand than some chick that's going to, 400 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:17.440 you know, hope to get the outfit for free and 401 00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:20.539 wear it on the red carpet, you know? When you're 402 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:23.779 meeting these people, did you try to ingratiate yourself? So 403 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.119 they're like, oh, Michael, come on our yacht with us. 404 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:28.000 Let's hang out. 405 00:21:28.779 --> 00:21:31.509 How did that work? Because you were like writing about them. 406 00:21:31.609 --> 00:21:33.430 Did they want you to write about them? Did they 407 00:21:33.730 --> 00:21:36.109 did it make you nervous? Did it make them nervous 408 00:21:36.130 --> 00:21:39.029 that that you were, in fact, you know, a writer? 409 00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:42.049 Well, you know, when I was covering rock and roll 410 00:21:42.089 --> 00:21:44.630 and I was in my 20s, I kind of had 411 00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:46.910 this fantasy that I would be their friend and you're 412 00:21:46.950 --> 00:21:47.509 not their friend. 413 00:21:47.529 --> 00:21:48.890 They live in a different world than you. 414 00:21:49.539 --> 00:21:52.539 And I pretty quickly came to understand that there was 415 00:21:52.579 --> 00:21:54.500 a there was a divide that I could ride in 416 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:59.390 the limousine, but it wasn't my limousine. And I vowed 417 00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:01.789 that I was not going to become the kind of 418 00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:04.900 person who did whatever it took to get invited into 419 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:08.400 somebody else's limousine. So when I started writing about fashion, 420 00:22:08.420 --> 00:22:11.519 I didn't do that kind of work. I wrote about 421 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:14.680 the real story. I wrote about how things ticked, what 422 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.220 really made a fashion brand. And, you know, there were 423 00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:21.569 times when that really annoyed people. Calvin Klein canceled $ 5 424 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:23.890 million in advertising in New York Magazine because of a 425 00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:28.569 story I wrote about him. Christian Lacroix banned me from his... 426 00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:30.930 What did you write that he didn't like? Well, it 427 00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:34.369 was a 9,000-word profile. So there was a lot that 428 00:22:34.390 --> 00:22:36.490 he didn't like in there. And, you know, the funny 429 00:22:36.509 --> 00:22:40.200 thing is I never said he was gay. But there 430 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.839 was a picture on the cover of him and his wife, Kelly. 431 00:22:43.579 --> 00:22:44.759 And maybe there. 432 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.700 Was a subtle message underneath all of that. 433 00:22:48.869 --> 00:22:51.650 But... I wrote about Christian Lacroix and I simply said 434 00:22:51.670 --> 00:22:54.109 that his second collection wasn't very good and I was 435 00:22:54.150 --> 00:22:57.809 banned from his fashion shows. So, you know, you discover 436 00:22:57.829 --> 00:23:00.180 that a lot of these people have very thin skin. 437 00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.480 And what they count on is that there are so-called 438 00:23:04.539 --> 00:23:08.720 journalists out there who think of their job as ingratiation, 439 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.900 who are lapdogs. And I kind of decided to position 440 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:16.220 myself opposite that and become a terrier. If you put 441 00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:17.809 a bone in my mouth of a story, I wasn't 442 00:23:17.829 --> 00:23:21.029 going

to let it go. And it wasn't a great 443 00:23:21.069 --> 00:23:23.829 way to make friends. And in fact, I did make friends. 444 00:23:23.950 --> 00:23:25.750 I made friends with lots of the people in the 445 00:23:25.789 --> 00:23:28.829 worlds that I covered. But the way that I kind 446 00:23:28.890 --> 00:23:30.900 of sum them up is they're people who got the junk. 447 00:23:31.539 --> 00:23:34.380 They understood that it was all a game and it 448 00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:37.259 was a game with journalists and that there was this 449 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:42.069 continuum between terriers and lapdogs and that you could work 450 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.329 with somebody. And sometimes you had to bite the hand 451 00:23:45.369 --> 00:23:48.769 that feeds you. And as a great, great editor once said, 452 00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:51.670 And if you do that, they'll feed you some more. 453 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.400 And it really is true. And, you know, I found 454 00:23:55.500 --> 00:24:00.299 that if I didn't want, care about being invited, I 455 00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:05.289 would be invited. And when I wasn't invited, I could 456 00:24:05.329 --> 00:24:07.359 just get the story anyway. So that was how I, 457 00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:08.650 that was how I handled it. 458 00:24:09.430 --> 00:24:13.109 In writing about them, whether it was in the newspapers, magazines, 459 00:24:13.849 --> 00:24:17.630 or in your books, did did sometimes did you say 460 00:24:17.670 --> 00:24:20.609 who they were and other times kind of, you know, 461 00:24:20.950 --> 00:24:22.650 make it that someone could figure it out, but you 462 00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:25.200 don't say their actual name. How do you work that 463 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:29.480 as far as not getting, you know, someone coming after 464 00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:30.960 you for defamation or whatever? 465 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:35.940 Well, I've been threatened and, you know, lawyers don't scare me. Um, 466 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:39.910 and I've been threatened by some pretty scary people. So, um, But, 467 00:24:40.109 --> 00:24:41.950 you know, I did write a gossip column once for 468 00:24:41.990 --> 00:24:42.630 about four months. 469 00:24:42.730 --> 00:24:44.190 I hated it. I hated myself. 470 00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:46.269 I hated waking up in the morning and looking in 471 00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:48.930 the mirror. I hated what I was doing. And I 472 00:24:48.970 --> 00:24:52.539 did write blind items. You know, guess who this is? 473 00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:55.859 And I hated doing that. No, what I do is 474 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.240 I write real stories about real people and I use 475 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:02.250 real names. And, you know, that might be why some 476 00:25:02.309 --> 00:25:04.829 people didn't get the joke. 477 00:25:05.309 --> 00:25:06.710 Yeah. 478 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:13.119 But that allowed me to write books that connected with 479 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.279 the audience. I don't write for the people I write about. 480 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:20.420 I write for the people who read my books. And 481 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:23.029 what's great is that by the time I started writing 482 00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:25.470 these books about real estate, and I've done four now 483 00:25:25.509 --> 00:25:28.829 with the St. Bart's book, people respected what I did 484 00:25:28.869 --> 00:25:33.950 and they understood that I was putting their accomplishments into perspective. 485 00:25:34.529 --> 00:25:37.599 And if that meant describing them as the saying goes, 486 00:25:37.710 --> 00:25:41.339 warts and all, it still was a way of saying, 487 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.759 look at how important this person is. Look at how 488 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.660 successful this person is. And so by the time I 489 00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:50.279 got to the later books and especially Treasured Island, there 490 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:52.519 were people who were thanking me for writing it because 491 00:25:52.539 --> 00:25:55.549 they realized that if somebody like me who asked the 492 00:25:55.589 --> 00:25:59.210 right questions didn't write that book, then the story of 493 00:25:59.250 --> 00:26:02.230 the island was going to vanish and die with the. 494 00:26:02.190 --> 00:26:04.190 People who created it. the St. 495 00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:07.039 Barts that we have today. And that it was really 496 00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:09.700 important that that story be told. And you can only 497 00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:12.240 do that if you're willing to tell the truth. 498 00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:15.819 So I happened to St. Barts once. 499 00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:19.500 I took the scary, you know, the little scary jumper 500 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:21.059 plane that everyone talks about. 501 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:22.799 I was very lucky. 502 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.869 My husband and I were guests on our friend's yacht 503 00:26:25.940 --> 00:26:28.549 that was docked there. We never took the big yacht out, 504 00:26:28.589 --> 00:26:31.650 but we stayed on the big the big yacht that 505 00:26:31.690 --> 00:26:34.190 had a staff. And then we would take the very 506 00:26:34.250 --> 00:26:38.690 nice Tinder out to snorkel and went to dinner and 507 00:26:38.730 --> 00:26:41.410 danced on the tables and went out at night and, 508 00:26:42.339 --> 00:26:45.000 and walked around the fancy shops and the more charming 509 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:47.380 shops and took. 510 00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:49.079 The Moki around and all of that. 511 00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:52.579 And we didn't go at the high tide time, like 512 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:55.940 the Christmas time we went around Easter. So it was 513 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.359 still very nice weather, but some days like rained and, um, 514 00:27:00.089 --> 00:27:04.650 And it was interesting then, which was about three or 515 00:27:04.670 --> 00:27:08.109 four years ago, where, yeah, three years

ago, where we 516 00:27:08.150 --> 00:27:12.849 were talking about, you know, they made sure that like 517 00:27:13.609 --> 00:27:17.170 there wasn't a place for any kind of big boat 518 00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:21.059 to come in so that, you know, or it's very 519 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:24.500 restricted of like how big or what level of hotel 520 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:26.559 and stuff would be there because they didn't want it 521 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.500 to be accessible to everybody. They really wanted to keep 522 00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:33.740 it at a level that you had to be pretty 523 00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:38.279 darn rich to stay there, get there, go to restaurants there, 524 00:27:38.619 --> 00:27:39.640 find a hotel room. 525 00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:41.460 Is that correct? 526 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:43.329 Well, yeah. 527 00:27:43.369 --> 00:27:45.269 I mean, but you're talking about two different things. The 528 00:27:45.309 --> 00:27:49.089 harbor only accommodates a certain length of boat. So when 529 00:27:49.130 --> 00:27:51.809 David Geffen comes, he has to park his boat outside 530 00:27:51.869 --> 00:27:54.569 the harbor because it just can't get in. And even 531 00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:56.910 though there are slips for super yachts in the marina there, 532 00:27:57.470 --> 00:28:00.799 There's not room for the really, really, really big boats. 533 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:05.259 So Roman Abramovich, Paul Allen, David Geffen, they have to 534 00:28:05.299 --> 00:28:09.220 tender in from outside the harbor. So that's one limitation, 535 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.400 but that's a natural limitation. That harbor has been, the 536 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:15.170 reason why St. Barts is St. Barts is because of 537 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:18.049 that harbor. It was a free port going back to 538 00:28:18.069 --> 00:28:22.529 the 17th century. In the 16th century, pirates operated out 539 00:28:22.549 --> 00:28:25.789 of that harbor. The original name was the Caranage. And 540 00:28:25.829 --> 00:28:30.210 Caranage is where boats are repaired. So that's a physical 541 00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:32.430 fact of St. Barts, and it was a huge advantage 542 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:36.460 that it had that harbor. As the island began to develop, 543 00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:40.480 there was a very conscious decision made that hotels would 544 00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:45.539 be limited, that they would, originally, they had to be 545 00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:49.339 12 rooms or fewer, nothing larger. And so what they 546 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:54.450 did was, very consciously, they created an island where There's 547 00:28:54.490 --> 00:28:57.829 an intimate scale. There are no concrete box hotels. There 548 00:28:57.869 --> 00:29:02.210 are no beaches full of hotel, hotel, hotel, hotel, with 549 00:29:02.250 --> 00:29:06.230 people selling garbage on the beach. And all of those 550 00:29:06.329 --> 00:29:09.289 things contributed to the island that you visited

three or 551 00:29:09.329 --> 00:29:13.079 four years ago, which is very different from the island 552 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:16.720 that I visited 35 years ago, because it's the same 553 00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.740 French island. It's got the same style of life. It's 554 00:29:19.779 --> 00:29:24.390 got the same savoir-faire. It's got the same croissant, the same, 555 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.599 you know, duck confit. But back then, there were no 556 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:33.150 palace hotels. There were no glass and marble villas. The 557 00:29:33.190 --> 00:29:37.390 villas were made of mahogany antique. The hotels were small, intimate, 558 00:29:37.430 --> 00:29:40.829 and charming. They were very luxurious even then. but it 559 00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:43.890 was all on a much smaller scale. Everything was also 560 00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:47.450 far less expensive then, even though it was probably the 561 00:29:48.430 --> 00:29:52.079 most expensive island in the Caribbean. There was a hotel 562 00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:56.099 called Tijuana where the owner would rather keep the rooms 563 00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:58.799 empty and have no one staying there than rent to 564 00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:02.910 the wrong kind of people. They were consciously trying to, 565 00:30:02.930 --> 00:30:07.490 and I hate this word, curate the kind of people 566 00:30:07.529 --> 00:30:10.599 who came to the island to ensure that it kept 567 00:30:10.990 --> 00:30:15.779 this very lofty luxury image. And over the years, more 568 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:20.940 investment came and the DNA of the island didn't change, 569 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.069 but the outward expression of it did. And so now 570 00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:27.829 there are palace hotels and they're kind of snooty and 571 00:30:27.950 --> 00:30:33.730 there are stores that really very few people would shop in. And, 572 00:30:33.769 --> 00:30:35.549 you know, a lot of those billionaires, they expect to 573 00:30:35.589 --> 00:30:38.430 get the clothes for free because they're billionaires. So they 574 00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:40.849 don't even shop. I mean, I know one billionaire guy 575 00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:44.569 who has a gigantic yacht who I, he told me 576 00:30:44.589 --> 00:30:46.109 he was going to St. Barts and I offered to 577 00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:50.099 recommend some restaurants. And he said, why would I want 578 00:30:50.119 --> 00:30:53.440 a list of restaurants? And I said, because St. Barts 579 00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:55.539 is famous for its food. And he said, I have 580 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:57.599 a shop on my boat. My chef is better than theirs. 581 00:30:58.390 --> 00:31:01.079 So there's that kind of billionaire attitude of you bring 582 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.400 it with you. And what's interesting is that these people 583 00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:07.920 tend to come Christmas week when they can rub shoulders 584 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.460 and butt chests with. 585 00:31:09.500 --> 00:31:10.720 Others of their ilk. 586 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.980 And they're all engaged in this gigantic who's is bigger. 587 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:17.809 And I'm talking about their wallets and their boats, not 588 00:31:18.289 --> 00:31:23.369 anything else, not their short stubby fingers. And, um, um, 589 00:31:24.210 --> 00:31:26.970 So there's that society in St. 590 00:31:27.009 --> 00:31:27.250 Bart's. 591 00:31:27.289 --> 00:31:30.410 And then there's the society that you encountered going Easter week. 592 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:33.309 I was there just the week before Easter this year. 593 00:31:34.029 --> 00:31:34.769 It's quieter. 594 00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:37.690 There's still David Geffen's yacht was still there. The richest 595 00:31:37.730 --> 00:31:41.210 man in Israel's yacht was still there. But there wasn't 596 00:31:41.309 --> 00:31:46.000 this constant game of I'm more important than you are 597 00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:49.500 going on. And you can also, the great thing about St. 598 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.480 Bart's is it depends on the St. Bart's you want 599 00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:55.619 to see. Because the people who go to the dance 600 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.390 on table restaurants, they're getting drunk at three o'clock in 601 00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:01.250 the morning. They're not getting up at 7 a.m. and 602 00:32:01.289 --> 00:32:03.230 they're not on the beach at 9 a.m. and they 603 00:32:03.269 --> 00:32:05.809 don't know which beaches are great for swimming. They probably 604 00:32:05.849 --> 00:32:11.170 don't swim. They probably sink from the weight of their wallet. 605 00:32:11.390 --> 00:32:12.609 So, and they go to. 606 00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:15.359 Their restaurants, but there are other restaurants that the people 607 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.819 who love the old style St. Barts go to. So 608 00:32:18.859 --> 00:32:22.670 there's this, it's like a multi-layer cake. And you can 609 00:32:22.750 --> 00:32:25.250 choose your layer. And then you can, if you want, 610 00:32:25.910 --> 00:32:28.390 go visit the top layer and have some caviar and 611 00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:31.349 have some foie gras, dance on a table, and then 612 00:32:31.390 --> 00:32:32.410 go back to the real St. 613 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:33.410 Barts the next day. 614 00:32:34.190 --> 00:32:39.390 And so now, how do you see it today? Like, 615 00:32:39.690 --> 00:32:44.190 is it too many influencers, so many places, whether it's 616 00:32:44.210 --> 00:32:48.269 a restaurant that has a great frozen yogurt in New 617 00:32:48.309 --> 00:32:52.630 York City to... a bagel place to an actual vacation 618 00:32:52.710 --> 00:32:56.990 spot where influencers would go and film it and make 619 00:32:57.029 --> 00:32:57.730 people aware. 620 00:32:57.849 --> 00:32:59.630 And now it's like, I got to go there. I 621 00:32:59.650 --> 00:33:00.839 don't care how much it costs. 622 00:33:00.890 --> 00:33:03.599 I just got to go

there once, get these photos. 623 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:08.319 And it's really, isn't the, the vibe that it was in. 624 00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:10.660 Of yesteryear. 625 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:11.640 Do you find that? 626 00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:15.220 Yes, there are, you know, I have, I have an 627 00:33:15.259 --> 00:33:19.220 Instagram account and, And when I started promoting my book, 628 00:33:19.420 --> 00:33:21.640 one of the things that I put up on there 629 00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:25.099 was a picture of eight influencers on the beach at 630 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:28.109 a beach called Anse de Galette in St. Barts at 631 00:33:28.190 --> 00:33:30.990 a day club called Shalona. And they were all primping 632 00:33:31.029 --> 00:33:35.130 and posing in their little metallic bikinis and with their 633 00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:39.410 selfie sticks. And I did put up a post making 634 00:33:39.450 --> 00:33:41.720 fun of the influencers. And the great thing is that 635 00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:45.319 while they're looking at themselves and at each other, all 636 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:47.329 you have to do is turn your head. And you 637 00:33:47.349 --> 00:33:49.390 can look out at sea and see what St. Bart's 638 00:33:49.430 --> 00:33:53.970 is really about. As opposed to, look, I'm here. You know, 639 00:33:53.990 --> 00:33:57.859 I have never cared about the frozen yogurt place that 640 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:01.700 people line up for. That whole culture, you know, I 641 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:04.519 spent 10 years covering that culture for the New York Times. 642 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.200 And it was a job and I got paid for it. 643 00:34:07.539 --> 00:34:13.050 And the notion that this is what our society has 644 00:34:13.110 --> 00:34:13.650 become is. 645 00:34:16.329 --> 00:34:17.349 Fascinating one. 646 00:34:17.750 --> 00:34:21.110 And the one thing that I am willing to guarantee 647 00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:23.550 is that the culture will move on. This too is 648 00:34:23.610 --> 00:34:27.010 reaching the saturation point. And at some point, people are 649 00:34:27.030 --> 00:34:30.219 going to start looking out to sea instead of at 650 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:31.679 themselves in their cell phones. 651 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:37.360 I mean, even my own life with social media, you know, 652 00:34:37.539 --> 00:34:40.659 it is such a great tool to for someone like me, 653 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.559 who's a comedian, who is responsible for getting her own opportunities, 654 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:47.500 own ads, own jobs, all that stuff. 655 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:48.880 It's extremely valuable. 656 00:34:49.900 --> 00:34:55.219 But I have looked back on vacations in the recent 657 00:34:55.260 --> 00:35:00.590 years and been like, I was too, there's like an 658 00:35:00.670 --> 00:35:03.130 anxiety where you're like, I got to take these photos. 659 00:35:03.170 --> 00:35:06.110 I've got to take this content because it's so beautiful. 660

00:35:06.130 --> 00:35:07.289 I got to get it. 661 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.010 Then I was like, okay, I got to get it. 662 00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:14.539 But then I won't post it till I'm home or, 663 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.940 you know, in my room or whatever so that I 664 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:21.010 can enjoy the experience. Now I'm going on a trip 665 00:35:21.650 --> 00:35:25.690 next week to these Bahama Islands. And I'm so excited 666 00:35:25.710 --> 00:35:28.079 because I love, I do love swimming in the ocean. I, 667 00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:31.489 you know, but now I'm in a place where I'm like, 668 00:35:32.469 --> 00:35:33.929 I'm going to bring one carry on. 669 00:35:34.179 --> 00:35:38.619 That's it. I want to just enjoy it. I'm fine 670 00:35:38.659 --> 00:35:39.050 taking it. 671 00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.340 I'm not bringing bags and shoes that match because that 672 00:35:42.380 --> 00:35:44.780 takes up a lot of room. I'm ready to just 673 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.400 really experience the beauty and have the fun. And I 674 00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:51.159 don't care to have to show it off. Now, you know, 675 00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:53.139 someone would be like, really Heather, you just came to 676 00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.699 that now, like at your age. But I do think 677 00:35:55.739 --> 00:35:58.889 that eventually people do get to that place where it's like, 678 00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:01.969 it feels like work. You know, I went on this 679 00:36:02.110 --> 00:36:05.929 one vacation and it I didn't want people to know 680 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:09.510 I was there because we had planned it and it was, 681 00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:12.250 there was bad things happening in the world. 682 00:36:12.969 --> 00:36:17.050 So I didn't want to look clueless posting this great time, 683 00:36:17.110 --> 00:36:17.409 you know? 684 00:36:18.190 --> 00:36:21.360 So we took photos and I, and I never posted it, 685 00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:24.239 but it was like, it wasn't a great vacation because 686 00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:25.920 I was stressed about the things going on in the world, 687 00:36:26.059 --> 00:36:29.059 but it made it so nice just to be like, 688 00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:33.730 oh my God, you know, take maybe one, One morning 689 00:36:33.789 --> 00:36:36.289 photo and one when you're cute to go out to dinner. 690 00:36:36.309 --> 00:36:39.230 And like, that's it. Like to be filming it all 691 00:36:39.289 --> 00:36:41.710 around and stuff. It's you do get to a place 692 00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:43.929 where you're like, I'm not living in this moment. And 693 00:36:44.429 --> 00:36:46.170 I don't now even remember it. 694 00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:48.599 You know, one of the one of my great St. 695 00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.699 Barts memories is the second or third year I went. 696 00:36:52.539 --> 00:36:55.920 And as I was in St. Barts, the Gulf War, 697 00:36:56.199 --> 00:37:01.110 George Bush and Saddam Hussein broke out. And you couldn't 698 00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:02.130 get a newspaper at St. 699 00:37:02.170 --> 00:37:02.610 Barts then. 700 00:37:03.250 --> 00:37:05.829 You could get a day and a half old New 701 00:37:05.869 --> 00:37:08.159 York Times at four o'clock in the afternoon the next 702 00:37:08.219 --> 00:37:10.719 day if they happened to pick up the papers in 703 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.139 Puerto Rico and fly them in. There was no television. 704 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:18.440 There were no telephones. And I am so serious about this. 705 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:22.079 There was a boutique that was called Sorry No Telephone. 706 00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:25.619 And I still have some Sorry No Telephone t-shirts. And 707 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:28.909 at the time, you know, you didn't realize what an 708 00:37:28.989 --> 00:37:31.409 amazing thing it was to be in a place that 709 00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:33.519 was cut off from the world. So now the Gulf 710 00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:36.860 War breaks out and the only television reception we had 711 00:37:36.929 --> 00:37:41.730 in the house that we were renting was reverse image snow. 712 00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:45.869 So it was all static and you could just about 713 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:50.599 hear that very horrible things were going on in Iran, 714 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:51.500 in Iraq. 715 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.320 And I thought, how lucky are we? Turn it off. 716 00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.760 And, you know, it sounds like you've got the right idea, 717 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.929 but I'm going to pose a challenge to you. Leave 718 00:38:01.949 --> 00:38:02.630 your phone at home. 719 00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:06.820 Well, that I don't think I can do because unfortunately. 720 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.510 Get an old fashioned flip phone. 721 00:38:09.710 --> 00:38:11.969 Yeah, I'm going to try to, I've been getting better, 722 00:38:12.070 --> 00:38:16.809 but you know, again, with my business, I have to post, 723 00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:19.909 you know, this is going to be dropping while I'm 724 00:38:19.969 --> 00:38:22.889 on vacation. So it's like, I have to post about it, 725 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:27.179 you know, and I can have Drake work with me 726 00:38:27.219 --> 00:38:29.360 so that I, I'm getting to a place where I'm like, 727 00:38:29.420 --> 00:38:31.079 I don't want to, I definitely don't want to be 728 00:38:31.099 --> 00:38:31.900 doing too much. 729 00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:34.489 But yes, you do kind of have to do that. 730 00:38:34.550 --> 00:38:36.369 But yeah, it's great. 731 00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:39.789 When somebody, I've interviewed people that have done, young kids 732 00:38:39.809 --> 00:38:42.190 that have done reality shows where they take their phones 733 00:38:43.070 --> 00:38:44.969 and they said, you know, the first day it was weird, 734 00:38:45.010 --> 00:38:48.300 but after that, we loved it. We loved every second 735 00:38:48.380 --> 00:38:52.760 of it. Nobody else had

their phone. We, that's why 736 00:38:52.820 --> 00:38:55.980 we were able to make friends or even maybe, you know, 737 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.860 get romantic or whatever, because we weren't looking at the phones. 738 00:38:59.980 --> 00:39:03.340 It's just such a, And I do feel like there's 739 00:39:03.389 --> 00:39:05.929 gonna be a pendulum swing and it's already starting where 740 00:39:05.969 --> 00:39:11.289 people are really making events and things like that where 741 00:39:11.309 --> 00:39:14.070 you drop the phone or you hire a photographer and 742 00:39:14.710 --> 00:39:16.809 that's the photos and you don't need to worry about 743 00:39:16.849 --> 00:39:17.489 getting them. 744 00:39:17.849 --> 00:39:20.530 And it really makes such a difference, you know? 745 00:39:21.289 --> 00:39:24.550 You know, and I realize that it's both ironic and 746 00:39:24.610 --> 00:39:28.409 perhaps a little hypocritical that I'm here, now here comes 747 00:39:28.429 --> 00:39:32.329 the advertisement, talking about my book, Treasured Island, the story 748 00:39:32.369 --> 00:39:35.369 of St. Barts, out on June 16th in bookstores everywhere, 749 00:39:35.769 --> 00:39:39.949 while talking about an island where there were once no 750 00:39:39.969 --> 00:39:42.719 telephones and no television and no newspapers and how much 751 00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:43.360 I loved it. 752 00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:46.019 But the fact is the world can accommodate both of 753 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.389 those things. You can be. 754 00:39:50.329 --> 00:39:53.210 Both the person who does your job and takes pictures 755 00:39:53.289 --> 00:39:56.369 and posts on social media and also someone who can 756 00:39:56.409 --> 00:39:58.230 just throw the switch and. 757 00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:01.570 Turn it off for a few days. And it's a 758 00:40:01.650 --> 00:40:02.690 place like St. 759 00:40:02.730 --> 00:40:05.730 Bart's where the world is in your face. You go 760 00:40:05.769 --> 00:40:08.550 down to Gustavia Harbor and what you are looking at 761 00:40:08.949 --> 00:40:13.860 is wealth inequality without question. That's what you're seeing. You 762 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:18.630 are seeing the epitome of inequality. You're seeing, if you 763 00:40:18.650 --> 00:40:22.340 look hard enough, how this all happened, how luxury became 764 00:40:22.380 --> 00:40:26.519 this thing, how social media, the fuel of ambition and 765 00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.639 avarice and jealousy and envy that drives social media. And 766 00:40:30.699 --> 00:40:34.750 yet you're also in this stunningly beautiful place where you 767 00:40:34.769 --> 00:40:37.489 can just turn it off and relax. And, you know, 768 00:40:37.510 --> 00:40:40.670 there it's just being able to keep two thoughts in 769 00:40:40.690 --> 00:40:44.030 your head at the same time. So it's not hypocrisy 770 00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:45.230 and it's not irony. 771 00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:47.750 It's just the way the world works now. 772

00:40:48.469 --> 00:40:50.309 And, you know, we have to take pleasure where we 773 00:40:50.349 --> 00:40:52.150 can find it, even in troubled times. 774 00:40:52.989 --> 00:40:55.050 In being in St. 775 00:40:55.070 --> 00:41:00.260 Barts and things, I'm imagining you encountered like a lot 776 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:07.260 of maybe, you know, infidelity or social climbers or gold 777 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:12.750 diggers or gigolos or wife swapping scandal. 778 00:41:13.570 --> 00:41:15.690 Can you share any of that? 779 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.019 Well, you know, a lot of what goes on in St. 780 00:41:20.059 --> 00:41:23.880 Barts stays in St. Barts because there is an entire 781 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:29.340 ecosystem of people who are paid very well to protect 782 00:41:29.389 --> 00:41:32.230 the privacy of the people who go there. So the, 783 00:41:32.489 --> 00:41:36.630 you know, the concierges, which are both hotel concierges, but 784 00:41:36.670 --> 00:41:39.130 also concierges for the people. 785 00:41:38.949 --> 00:41:39.710 Who rent villas. 786 00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:42.960 You know, they might tell me the story about the 787 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.719 maid who walked in one day and one of the 788 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:49.320 guys in the house was snorting cocaine off the bare 789 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:52.300 bottom of one of the women in the house. Or 790 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.199 the clothes were all over the place and who knows 791 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:55.599 who was in what bedroom. 792 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.460 But they're going to protect their clients. 793 00:41:58.099 --> 00:42:03.360 So, and, you know, really, there's something kind of banal 794 00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:06.300 about all of that. But at the same time, there, 795 00:42:06.440 --> 00:42:09.380 you know, this is an island where hedonism has reigned 796 00:42:09.460 --> 00:42:13.289 for decades. And there was a point when all of 797 00:42:13.349 --> 00:42:17.090 that was very, very public. So there's a whole section 798 00:42:17.130 --> 00:42:20.130 in the middle of the book about the era from 799 00:42:20.170 --> 00:42:24.030 the 70s to the 80s when St. Bart's was overrun 800 00:42:24.090 --> 00:42:30.400 with drug smugglers, models, fashion photographers, and rock stars. And 801 00:42:30.420 --> 00:42:32.980 that was one of the things that, you know, there 802 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.619 were a whole series of waves of people going there 803 00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:37.199 that put St. 804 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:37.960 Bart's on the map. 805 00:42:38.059 --> 00:42:43.500 First, there were multi-multi-millionaires like David Rockefeller and Edmund de Rothschild. So, 806 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:47.159 you know, you had the American and the French uber-rich guys. 807 00:42:48.099 --> 00:42:52.739 Then you had the kind of Connecticut pioneers, Republicans who 808 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:56.659 liked to sail, who built houses. One of those houses 809

00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:00.239 that was built by a fellow who was later the 810 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:05.909 mayor of Wilmington, Delaware, became the den of iniquity the 811 00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:09.469 most raucous, louche hotel club on the island. 812 00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:10.949 It was called Auteur de Rocher. 813 00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:15.500 It was ostensibly owned by Jimmy Buffett, although Buffett was 814 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:16.519 really just a front man. 815 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.460 He owned about 2%, 3%. 816 00:43:19.460 --> 00:43:21.699 But Buffett described it as the scene of some of 817 00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:25.070 the worst behavior I have ever seen. And he was 818 00:43:25.110 --> 00:43:27.050 a rock star, so you know that he's seen a 819 00:43:27.170 --> 00:43:31.510 lot of bad behavior in his life. And so there's 820 00:43:31.550 --> 00:43:35.710 a very long section of Treasured Island in which things 821 00:43:35.769 --> 00:43:38.090 that went on there are described, and a lot of 822 00:43:38.130 --> 00:43:40.469 it is not fit for a family podcast. 823 00:43:41.670 --> 00:43:46.500 No, this is not a family podcast. 824 00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:47.460 Well, good. 825 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.659 There's the bartender who had sex with so many girls 826 00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:52.539 in the bathroom that they ripped the sink off the 827 00:43:52.579 --> 00:43:57.699 wall three times. He had a reputation for going down 828 00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:59.599 on women for an hour and a half at a time, 829 00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:01.719 so they would hand him from one to the next. 830 00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:05.559 Girls left their boyfriends to be with this guy. drug 831 00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:10.130 dealers traded girls. You know, they would be having sex 832 00:44:10.190 --> 00:44:13.949 on the pool table while snorting cocaine from somebody handing 833 00:44:13.969 --> 00:44:15.829 it in through the window into the nightclub. 834 00:44:16.309 --> 00:44:17.349 It was wild. 835 00:44:17.929 --> 00:44:20.909 And when I asked one of these drug smugglers whether 836 00:44:21.449 --> 00:44:23.940 a night like that was the worst thing he ever saw, 837 00:44:23.960 --> 00:44:27.639 he kind of paused for a second and he went, uh, no. 838 00:44:28.340 --> 00:44:33.550 Now, in all this research, was it never darker than that? 839 00:44:33.610 --> 00:44:38.170 Like this wasn't never Epstein Island type stuff? Or was 840 00:44:38.210 --> 00:44:40.670 there some of that where girls would come that maybe 841 00:44:40.690 --> 00:44:43.179 were not 18 years old, but were in the modeling 842 00:44:43.219 --> 00:44:47.699 world and looked older? They themselves were trying to get 843 00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:50.900 on the yacht. We always hear everybody's like, oh, I 844 00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:52.260 want to go on a yacht. I want to be 845 00:44:52.300 --> 00:44:54.420 a yacht girl. I want to find friends who have 846 00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:56.599 you know, girls that could bring me on a yacht. 847 00:44:56.619 --> 00:44:58.280 And then people are like, be careful when you get 848 00:44:58.340 --> 00:45:01.349 on that yacht. You know, they're not just, they're not 849 00:45:02.030 --> 00:45:05.329 looking to find out about what your, you know, high 850 00:45:05.369 --> 00:45:07.750 school career was like before you got on this yacht. 851 00:45:07.809 --> 00:45:09.329 They don't give a shit about that. 852 00:45:09.889 --> 00:45:16.360 Between the late 1990s and the 2010s, there was a 853 00:45:16.389 --> 00:45:20.659 period when almost every Me Too perpetrator on earth was 854 00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:21.280 going to St. 855 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:21.619 Barts. 856 00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:25.400 Usually, again, during Christmas week, Easy to avoid. You just 857 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:28.840 don't go during Christmas week. But Harvey Weinstein was there. 858 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:32.199 Puff Daddy was there. Russell Simmons was there. There's a 859 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:35.230 PR woman in New York who's kind of been disgraced 860 00:45:35.309 --> 00:45:39.690 by her association with Jeffrey Epstein. And just out of curiosity, 861 00:45:39.730 --> 00:45:41.670 this was long after I'd written the book, but the 862 00:45:41.750 --> 00:45:44.289 Epstein files came out and I plugged St. 863 00:45:44.329 --> 00:45:45.809 Bart's into the Epstein files. 864 00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:49.119 And she was constantly trying to get him to go 865 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:50.960 from the Virgin Islands to St. 866 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:51.320 Bart's. 867 00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.300 And interestingly, he was like, Well, you know, what do 868 00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:56.219 I need that for? I've got my own island and 869 00:45:56.260 --> 00:45:59.760 I have my own girls. So I guess Jeffrey Epstein probably, 870 00:45:59.780 --> 00:46:02.219 you know, only went there a few times, but all 871 00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:04.420 of the rest of them were there. So there's an 872 00:46:04.500 --> 00:46:08.940 entire roster of the cancel who are on the scene 873 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:09.420 on St. 874 00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:13.590 Bart's list. So did bad things go on there? I'm 875 00:46:13.690 --> 00:46:14.369 sure they did. 876 00:46:14.849 --> 00:46:21.349 I'm frankly more interested in financial skullduggery, in real estate skullduggery, 877 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:29.719 in the machinations of uber-rich people trying to impose their 878 00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:33.190 vision on an island that will tolerate them and take 879 00:46:33.250 --> 00:46:36.829 their money, but really doesn't want them running things. And 880 00:46:36.969 --> 00:46:41.510 so those kind of larger societal forces are what I 881 00:46:41.550 --> 00:46:42.480 pay more attention to. 882 00:46:43.289 --> 00:46:46.150 You know what I wonder about is like, sometimes when 883 00:46:46.190 --> 00:46:47.750 I think about like a St. Bar, it's like, let's 884

00:46:47.769 --> 00:46:51.070 just say I wanted to go and plan with my friends. 885 00:46:51.860 --> 00:46:55.289 I mean, I'm, I'm a little bit famous, but not much. 886 00:46:56.230 --> 00:46:59.889 I always panic, like how on a busy time, how 887 00:46:59.969 --> 00:47:03.429 am I ever going to get a reservation anywhere? Like, 888 00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:06.239 how does it work out that all these people, because 889 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:09.300 each person's more powerful than the next that can say, no, 890 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:12.800 I want an eight o'clock table, whatever. I want a 891 00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:16.449 two o'clock table on the beach at this place. the 892 00:47:16.489 --> 00:47:20.090 big round table near the guy playing the trumpet. Like, 893 00:47:20.849 --> 00:47:23.949 how does it always work out that everybody seems to 894 00:47:23.989 --> 00:47:24.809 get their spot? 895 00:47:26.630 --> 00:47:28.210 Well, first of all, you don't have to compete with 896 00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:29.989 me because I would never go to those places. 897 00:47:30.949 --> 00:47:31.630 Okay. 898 00:47:31.909 --> 00:47:34.469 But, you know, first of all, where do you live? 899 00:47:35.489 --> 00:47:36.159 Where do you work at? 900 00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:39.260 I live, I'm in just outside of LA. 901 00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:39.519 Okay. 902 00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:43.019 It's just like it used to be to get a 903 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.659 table at Morton's or at Craig's or whatever the place 904 00:47:45.739 --> 00:47:46.360 right now is. 905 00:47:46.969 --> 00:47:49.230 If you're somebody, you'll get a table. 906 00:47:49.750 --> 00:47:52.809 If you know somebody, you'll get a table. If all 907 00:47:52.889 --> 00:47:56.369 else fails, money talks. The better thing to do is 908 00:47:56.429 --> 00:47:59.650 plan ahead. You know, I hate this, but I know 909 00:47:59.730 --> 00:48:02.329 now that there are certain places on St. Bart's where 910 00:48:02.349 --> 00:48:04.760 I have to call a week or two in advance 911 00:48:04.860 --> 00:48:07.599 and email and make reservations and plan ahead. 912 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:09.119 I was much. 913 00:48:09.219 --> 00:48:09.719 I remember. 914 00:48:10.469 --> 00:48:14.210 Years and years ago, I wrote a cover story for 915 00:48:14.250 --> 00:48:17.389 a travel magazine about the island of Capri off of 916 00:48:17.429 --> 00:48:20.989 the Italian coast. And when I went to Capri, it 917 00:48:21.050 --> 00:48:23.429 was in a slow moment. It had been a very 918 00:48:23.489 --> 00:48:25.949 famous place in the 50s and 60s, and it had 919 00:48:25.989 --> 00:48:28.699 kind of fallen off the map of rich people. And 920 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.460 I wrote a cover story about it, and I'm not 921 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:34.219 giving myself full credit for this, but it started to 922 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:37.900 come back until it became the place again. full of 923 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:41.239 yachts and

rich people and Jeff Bezos and blah, blah, blah. But, 924 00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:43.420 you know, we would wake up in the morning on Capri, 925 00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.510 walk down to the concierge desk and say, which way 926 00:48:46.570 --> 00:48:49.710 is the wind blowing today? And that was how we 927 00:48:49.769 --> 00:48:51.949 knew whether we wanted to go to Luigi, which was 928 00:48:52.030 --> 00:48:54.989 on one side of a mountain, or Scalinatella, which was 929 00:48:55.050 --> 00:48:56.829 on the other side of the mountain. Which way was 930 00:48:56.849 --> 00:48:58.949 the wind blowing? Where was the water going to be nicer? 931 00:48:59.409 --> 00:49:02.329 You know, unfortunately, unless you go places that are not 932 00:49:02.409 --> 00:49:05.929 yet discovered, you can't do that anymore. You have to 933 00:49:05.969 --> 00:49:11.320 either plan ahead Be immensely wealthy. Be somebody or know somebody. 934 00:49:12.659 --> 00:49:15.599 And that's just, again, the way the world works. Or 935 00:49:15.659 --> 00:49:18.809 be very lucky and walk in just when somebody really 936 00:49:18.869 --> 00:49:21.760 rich who had that big table on the beach cancels. 937 00:49:22.619 --> 00:49:25.420 Yeah, that's why I wonder, like, are there ever groups 938 00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:32.039 of very attractive girls that go there in the hopes 939 00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:35.900 of having a great time, going to villas, going to parties, 940 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:39.829 getting on yachts? But it seems to me like most 941 00:49:39.889 --> 00:49:44.530 people that go, it's men that bring a girlfriend with 942 00:49:44.570 --> 00:49:47.340 them or bring a wife or a mistress or whatever. 943 00:49:47.389 --> 00:49:49.739 It's not like going. 944 00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.960 To Vegas and meeting a group of guys playing poker 945 00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:54.320 at the steakhouse or whatever. 946 00:49:54.340 --> 00:49:56.460 Have you found that? 947 00:49:57.219 --> 00:50:02.500 One will see groups of incredibly beautiful women in incredibly 948 00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:07.230 skimpy clothing wearing sitting in highly visible places on St. Barts, 949 00:50:07.449 --> 00:50:12.150 and some of them are even amateurs. But yes, that happens. 950 00:50:13.909 --> 00:50:19.219 It's going to happen anywhere where a lot of money congregates. 951 00:50:20.059 --> 00:50:21.800 It's part of the scene. But I think that you 952 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:24.820 are right. Most people who are going to St. Barts 953 00:50:24.860 --> 00:50:25.539 will bring a date. 954 00:50:26.219 --> 00:50:26.500 Yeah. 955 00:50:27.380 --> 00:50:30.199 And then what do you feel about people bringing kids? 956 00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:32.780 Has that always been a factor where they bring the 957 00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:35.440 kids and the nannies, or was there a time when 958 00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:38.599 it was like you saw very little children on vacation there? 959 00:50:39.260 --> 00:50:42.760 Well, remember I told you about that hotel where the 960 00:50:42.820 --> 00:50:45.619 hotel owner would leave it empty in order to appear exclusive? 961 00:50:46.489 --> 00:50:49.469 He once sent Madonna away when she showed up with 962 00:50:49.510 --> 00:50:51.190 a baby and a nanny because he didn't want the 963 00:50:51.230 --> 00:50:52.250 baby and the nanny there. 964 00:50:54.010 --> 00:50:58.190 But most places on St. Barts, you see children all 965 00:50:58.230 --> 00:51:00.690 the time. It's also, it's a family island. It's an island. 966 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:05.719 Where there is an entire society that lives there. There's 967 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:10.599 that beach I mentioned with the Instagrammers called Shelby John Stigallette. 968 00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:13.690 There's an elementary school right next door to that beach. 969 00:51:13.730 --> 00:51:17.869 There are children all over the island. There are children-friendly hotels. 970 00:51:17.909 --> 00:51:24.070 There are children-friendly beaches. It's a very sophisticated place. And 971 00:51:24.190 --> 00:51:30.849 so well-behaved children do not stand out. And especially on 972 00:51:30.869 --> 00:51:33.510 the weekends when the islanders have the day off and 973 00:51:33.550 --> 00:51:36.090 they're going to the beach, you see kids all over 974 00:51:36.130 --> 00:51:37.409 the place. It's really kind of sweet. 975 00:51:38.179 --> 00:51:38.550 Yes. 976 00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:45.400 It also says, you know, right now locals are dealing 977 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:51.179 with insane overdevelopment, ecological threats, hospitality groups are taking over. 978 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:54.800 So where does that leave it now? 979 00:51:56.409 --> 00:51:59.789 Well, it's an ongoing battle right at this moment. A 980 00:51:59.849 --> 00:52:04.670 few years ago, there was an election where development-friendly candidates 981 00:52:04.750 --> 00:52:10.070 were running against development-unfriendly candidates. And the slate that was 982 00:52:10.110 --> 00:52:13.269 elected was kind of right up the middle. So there's 983 00:52:13.309 --> 00:52:16.949 an acute consciousness of the fact that St. Barts could 984 00:52:16.969 --> 00:52:19.550 become the victim of its own success. And there's a 985 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:23.599 very careful process going on, which includes a lot of 986 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:28.000 political battles between You know, the St. Barts equivalent of 987 00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:29.940 the left and the right, although they're not left or 988 00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:37.760 right on St. Barts, they're pro-development or they're pro-preservation. And 989 00:52:38.110 --> 00:52:40.139 I think that what's going to happen is they're going 990 00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:43.630 to find a balance. But at the moment, it's a 991 00:52:43.670 --> 00:52:47.050 political argument. It's a tug of war. And so when 992 00:52:47.090 --> 00:52:50.530 you go there, there are

lots of construction trucks. There's 993 00:52:50.570 --> 00:52:55.780 lots of construction companies. But the process of issuing permits 994 00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:00.199 to allow new construction has slowed way down. So what's 995 00:53:00.219 --> 00:53:02.510 happening now is all the permits that are outstanding, those 996 00:53:02.590 --> 00:53:05.949 places are being built. But for instance, you're no longer 997 00:53:06.050 --> 00:53:10.090 allowed to build a villa just to rent it. If 998 00:53:10.110 --> 00:53:12.590 you're a family and you're building a villa for your 999 00:53:12.630 --> 00:53:16.630 family to live in, no problem. 60% of the island 1000 00:53:16.670 --> 00:53:18.960 has been declared green. It will never be built on. 1001 00:53:19.579 --> 00:53:21.739 And boy, does that frustrate some people who own land. 1002 00:53:22.230 --> 00:53:26.250 let me tell you. So it's a process and it's ongoing. 1003 00:53:26.329 --> 00:53:31.190 And again, that's the underlying narrative of my book is 1004 00:53:31.250 --> 00:53:38.369 the story of progress, profit, preservation, all of these things, 1005 00:53:38.429 --> 00:53:39.269 you know, greed. 1006 00:53:40.739 --> 00:53:43.280 It all is in this stew of St. 1007 00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:47.360 Bart's and it's just makes it the most fascinating eight 1008 00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:48.800 square miles in the world to me. 1009 00:53:49.460 --> 00:53:53.829 Question about building a house, you're building a villa for 1010 00:53:53.849 --> 00:53:57.230 your family, for yourself. Is it one of those things 1011 00:53:57.289 --> 00:54:01.260 where you can only rent it out to one person 1012 00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:04.780 a year or you cannot rent it out to anybody? 1013 00:54:05.019 --> 00:54:06.719 You have to be there with your guests. 1014 00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:12.059 Well, now there's an effort being made to stop the 1015 00:54:12.099 --> 00:54:17.460 construction of purely rental housing. There's also a huge shortage 1016 00:54:17.500 --> 00:54:20.789 of housing for staff. So you have these five-star hotels 1017 00:54:20.889 --> 00:54:23.159 where their staff can't find any place to sleep, which 1018 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:26.340 is a huge issue on the island. And again, this 1019 00:54:26.420 --> 00:54:29.119 is all stuff that is in the process. 1020 00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:30.880 Of being worked out. 1021 00:54:31.219 --> 00:54:35.000 Most people on the island, they thought that beachfront property 1022 00:54:35.059 --> 00:54:38.760 was kind of yucky because beachfront property made you subject 1023 00:54:38.780 --> 00:54:43.409 to hurricanes and bad weather. Beachfront had mosquitoes. Beachfront wasn't 1024 00:54:43.510 --> 00:54:45.809 considered good property. They lived back from the beach and 1025 00:54:45.909 --> 00:54:48.250 up from the beach. And then they saw these people 1026 00:54:48.309 --> 00:54:51.090 coming to go to the beach. And so they built 1027 00:54:51.190 --> 00:54:53.949 houses on their properties on the beach that they rented. 1028 00:54:54.610 --> 00:54:56.389 And the joke was that they would move out and 1029 00:54:56.429 --> 00:55:00.550 sleep in the backyard in a hammock back in the 80s. But, 1030 00:55:00.789 --> 00:55:03.789 you know, nowadays, I mean, I rent a little tiny 1031 00:55:03.829 --> 00:55:08.650 house from a family that has a compound where mom 1032 00:55:08.690 --> 00:55:11.230 lives in one house, daughter and husband live in a 1033 00:55:11.289 --> 00:55:14.010 second house, and my wife and I rent the third house. 1034 00:55:15.150 --> 00:55:18.460 That's very frequent. There are people who have houses that 1035 00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:21.380 they use once a week and they once a month, 1036 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.639 once a year, excuse me, and they rented out the 1037 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.699 rest of the time. There are a million rental agents. 1038 00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:28.599 There used to be one. It used to be a duo. 1039 00:55:28.679 --> 00:55:30.460 There used to be two. It was a duopoly. 1040 00:55:31.139 --> 00:55:31.690 And it was a. 1041 00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:37.869 Much more civilized society when that duopoly was in charge. 1042 00:55:38.489 --> 00:55:40.630 Nowadays, it's a real estate free for all. 1043 00:55:40.889 --> 00:55:43.420 And so you have, you know, There's a house around 1044 00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:48.039 the corner from the one I rent that is, I think, $ 80, 000 1045 00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:50.889 a week during high season. But if you want it 1046 00:55:50.949 --> 00:55:52.949 for Christmas, you have to take it for two weeks 1047 00:55:53.010 --> 00:55:54.769 at $ 250, 000 a week. 1048 00:55:55.429 --> 00:55:55.789 Wow. 1049 00:55:56.750 --> 00:56:01.349 Now, has anybody or, you know, been such a drunk 1050 00:56:01.590 --> 00:56:05.849 asshole something that you get like banned from the restaurant 1051 00:56:05.869 --> 00:56:08.630 or banned from the island or anything like that, even 1052 00:56:08.670 --> 00:56:09.849 though you're super wealthy? 1053 00:56:10.429 --> 00:56:11.590 Funny you should mention that. 1054 00:56:12.369 --> 00:56:17.630 That same restaurant, hotel, where Madonna was turned away, which, 1055 00:56:17.670 --> 00:56:19.769 by the way, was famous in the 1980s for having 1056 00:56:19.789 --> 00:56:24.880 the world's most expensive lentil salad. He once threw Puff 1057 00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:29.760 Daddy out for being too rambunctious. And that exact same weekend, 1058 00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:33.429 Puff Daddy's yacht rental company took the yacht he had 1059 00:56:33.489 --> 00:56:36.309 rented away from him because he was trashing the yacht. 1060 00:56:36.789 --> 00:56:38.929 So the answer to your question is yes, it at 1061 00:56:38.989 --> 00:56:40.250 least happened to Puff Daddy. 1062 00:56:41.730 --> 00:56:46.530 Yeah, I think he had a good sense of judgment, 1063 00:56:47.230 --> 00:56:49.630 this guy, as far as that

goes, and seeing that 1064 00:56:49.690 --> 00:56:51.510 this was not going to get better or this wasn't 1065 00:56:51.530 --> 00:56:53.550 a one-time incident. 1066 00:56:54.070 --> 00:56:55.550 But to show you how tolerant St. 1067 00:56:55.590 --> 00:56:58.139 Bart's is, that guy, the guy who threw Madonna out 1068 00:56:58.199 --> 00:57:01.639 and threw Puffy out, that guy has been in jail, 1069 00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:06.139 has sold his hotel to two different people, has been 1070 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:10.909 engaged in all kinds of contractual skullduggery. and is still 1071 00:57:11.110 --> 00:57:12.670 a very beloved person on the island. 1072 00:57:13.389 --> 00:57:16.909 So St. Barts is tolerant of bad behavior, but only 1073 00:57:16.989 --> 00:57:17.530 up to a point. 1074 00:57:18.230 --> 00:57:21.670 So you live most of the time in the city, 1075 00:57:21.710 --> 00:57:22.349 in New York City? 1076 00:57:22.369 --> 00:57:26.219 I live right near the UN in Manhattan, yes. 1077 00:57:26.980 --> 00:57:31.219 And so how often then do you go to St. Barts? 1078 00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:34.000 Used to be once a year, lately twice a year. 1079 00:57:34.969 --> 00:57:37.389 My wife and I travel all the time. We're back 1080 00:57:37.429 --> 00:57:40.369 and forth to Europe all the time. We go all over. 1081 00:57:41.110 --> 00:57:41.449 But St. 1082 00:57:41.489 --> 00:57:46.230 Bart's is an every year thing. I've reserved the house 1083 00:57:46.269 --> 00:57:48.849 that I rent on St. Bart's through 2028. So I'm 1084 00:57:48.869 --> 00:57:49.510 a true believer. 1085 00:57:50.989 --> 00:57:52.909 And what's the time of year that you say you 1086 00:57:52.929 --> 00:57:53.570 like to go? 1087 00:57:55.289 --> 00:58:01.780 Any time from October to early December. So around Thanksgiving 1088 00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:06.880 is really nice. Then we used to go from Chinese 1089 00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:10.239 New Year, which is the end of January, anytime right 1090 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:13.449 up to Easter, which is very nice. I try to 1091 00:58:13.489 --> 00:58:16.449 go during slack times of year when the island is 1092 00:58:16.469 --> 00:58:19.050 a little less crowded and a little less high pressure. 1093 00:58:19.730 --> 00:58:22.590 And so when is kind of not the ideal time 1094 00:58:22.610 --> 00:58:23.730 to go weather-wise? 1095 00:58:24.789 --> 00:58:27.889 Well, you know, you don't want to go, you probably 1096 00:58:27.929 --> 00:58:30.130 don't want to go in September and October because there 1097 00:58:30.150 --> 00:58:30.610 are these. 1098 00:58:30.469 --> 00:58:31.690 Little things called hurricanes. 1099 00:58:32.550 --> 00:58:35.590 And, you know, there's a treasured island tells the story 1100 00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.940 of a number of these hurricanes that basically devastated the island. 1101 00:58:39.739 --> 00:58:42.679 And then the island is very quickly rebuilt. And in 1102 00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:46.599 certain instances, those hurricanes have been moments of reset for 1103 00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:49.340 the island when the culture changes a little bit. Like 1104 00:58:49.380 --> 00:58:53.349 Hurricane Irma in 2019 was a moment when people began 1105 00:58:53.389 --> 00:58:56.670 to take stock of overdevelopment for the first time. So 1106 00:58:57.110 --> 00:59:02.559 probably September, October, not ideal times to go. Um, The 1107 00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:07.809 European crowd tends to go on in August, which is 1108 00:59:08.469 --> 00:59:11.539 European vacation season. and they don't want to go to 1109 00:59:11.579 --> 00:59:14.519 Saint-Tropez because it's overcrowded. So they come to St. Barts 1110 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:18.059 because it's underutilized at that time of the year. And, 1111 00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:20.889 you know, you had said about the weather. Well, in August, 1112 00:59:20.969 --> 00:59:23.329 I went once in August and at three o'clock every 1113 00:59:23.369 --> 00:59:27.130 single afternoon, like clockwork, there would be a torrential rainstorm 1114 00:59:27.969 --> 00:59:30.500 and it would last for 15 minutes. And then the 1115 00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:32.940 sun would come out again. That's not too bad. No. 1116 00:59:35.780 --> 00:59:38.719 What about like the Real Housewives of New York and 1117 00:59:38.980 --> 00:59:42.969 places like those reality shows that come to the island 1118 00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:47.190 and film? Are they restrictive of that kind of thing now? 1119 00:59:47.429 --> 00:59:49.110 Or did they do it once and regret it? 1120 00:59:49.969 --> 00:59:54.710 Well, you know, Keeping Up with the Kardashians, that's their 1121 00:59:54.730 --> 00:59:55.449 television show. 1122 00:59:55.889 --> 00:59:56.170 Yes. 1123 00:59:56.869 --> 00:59:59.449 Keeping Up with the Kardashians did an episode. 1124 01:00:02.840 --> 01:00:06.039 And they spent a week there filming and they rented 1125 01:00:06.099 --> 01:00:09.099 a villa that had once been a hotel restaurant that 1126 01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:13.059 was famous for its transvestite cabaret shows. So it was 1127 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.639 kind of appropriate that, you know, trashy people in high 1128 01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:19.469 heels would film their show there and people on the 1129 01:00:19.550 --> 01:00:24.719 island laugh at it. You know, nobody cares. If you're 1130 01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:28.500 decently behaved, no one minds. I don't know if there 1131 01:00:28.539 --> 01:00:30.940 are rules about bringing a camera crew to the island. 1132 01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:34.039 You don't see that very often. You see a fashion 1133 01:00:34.059 --> 01:00:35.739 shoot far more often than that. 1134 01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:38.880 But, you know, do. 1135 01:00:38.820 --> 01:00:40.659 Reality TV people go there? 1136 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:41.440 Yeah, sure. 1137 01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:45.059 But so do people who actually accomplish things in their 1138 01:00:45.099 -->

01:00:52.329 lives and writers and artists and musicians and politicians and billionaires. 1139 01:00:53.030 --> 01:00:55.889 Speaking of real housewives is something I covered. 1140 01:00:55.909 --> 01:00:58.820 I know that's not like your forte or anything, but 1141 01:00:58.860 --> 01:01:03.800 they always want to get someone that is the billionaire's wife, 1142 01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:06.960 the rich wife that's led this very, very fabulous life. 1143 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:10.699 But she's not an actress and she's not famous in 1144 01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:16.119 her own right. But sometimes those women want very badly 1145 01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:18.190 to be famous because it's the one thing they really 1146 01:01:18.269 --> 01:01:22.099 can't buy. And then other times they're very hard to 1147 01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:25.139 get because the husband or whatever is like, hell to 1148 01:01:25.159 --> 01:01:27.519 the no, we're not going to have our lives exposed 1149 01:01:27.579 --> 01:01:30.619 and be a target for someone trying to fish into 1150 01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:31.610 our financials. 1151 01:01:32.170 --> 01:01:36.570 But in you dealing with these wealthy wives of. 1152 01:01:36.590 --> 01:01:40.929 Have you ever found that they do desire to have 1153 01:01:40.969 --> 01:01:44.099 a higher profile than what is allowed of them as 1154 01:01:44.179 --> 01:01:45.239 being the wife of? 1155 01:01:47.110 --> 01:01:50.929 In my experience and to my knowledge, which is limited 1156 01:01:50.989 --> 01:01:54.730 because it's not a world I cover, the kind of 1157 01:01:54.789 --> 01:01:58.869 people that you're describing are second tier in whatever world 1158 01:01:58.909 --> 01:02:02.550 they're in. If they're rich guys' wives, then they're second 1159 01:02:02.610 --> 01:02:08.360 tier rich guys. And they might even be second tier wives. 1160 01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:13.190 They're people who haven't actually gotten to the top. And 1161 01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:16.269 they are looking for something. They're still looking for something better. 1162 01:02:16.289 --> 01:02:19.679 And there's a level of desperation there that lots of 1163 01:02:19.719 --> 01:02:23.780 people are willing to take advantage of. And, you know, 1164 01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:30.599 I'm far more interested in accomplishment. I'm far more interested, 1165 01:02:30.659 --> 01:02:36.619 whether it's business accomplishment or creative accomplishment. Those are the 1166 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.309 people who do things are the people who interest me. 1167 01:02:40.579 --> 01:02:41.179 So on St. 1168 01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:44.260 Bart's, I'm actually far more interested in the people who 1169 01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:51.289 built hotels, who created restaurants, who built important houses and 1170 01:02:51.329 --> 01:02:56.929 attracted other influential, important, accomplished people to the island than 1171 01:02:57.030 --> 01:02:59.909 I am to the people who come in the third 1172 01:03:00.010 --> 01:03:04.460 wave where they're like looking around going, I don't see 1173 01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:05.219 any Rockefellers. 1174 01:03:06.059 --> 01:03:10.699 So it's not, I don't think St. 1175 01:03:10.739 --> 01:03:15.679 Barts is an island that would reject someone like that, 1176 01:03:16.460 --> 01:03:19.940 but neither would they be an important person on the 1177 01:03:20.059 --> 01:03:21.699 island or to the island. 1178 01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:22.000 Right. 1179 01:03:22.900 --> 01:03:25.920 And one thing I've kind of, I was surprised that 1180 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:28.760 I discovered this because I didn't grow up in the 1181 01:03:28.820 --> 01:03:32.739 world of this kind of wealth or even close, is 1182 01:03:32.820 --> 01:03:40.420 that billionaires kind of are attracted to other billionaires' wives, 1183 01:03:40.500 --> 01:03:45.070 whether they're divorced or whatever, that these women, you know, 1184 01:03:45.110 --> 01:03:47.829 you sometimes think, yes, some rich guys go for the youngest, 1185 01:03:47.869 --> 01:03:51.769 hottest thing for their third or fourth wife. But oftentimes 1186 01:03:51.809 --> 01:03:54.269 they go for the woman that knows how to live 1187 01:03:54.730 --> 01:03:59.590 this life already. And if it's sort of a competitive 1188 01:03:59.670 --> 01:04:02.909 thing that they would get some guy that was sort 1189 01:04:02.929 --> 01:04:05.889 of in their league or maybe even a little above 1190 01:04:05.929 --> 01:04:07.539 their league, their ex-wife. 1191 01:04:07.579 --> 01:04:10.099 Have you seen that at all, that dynamic? 1192 01:04:11.500 --> 01:04:17.360 Yeah, but again, it's only interesting in terms of sort 1193 01:04:17.380 --> 01:04:20.320 of the life of the French aristocracy in the 19th century. 1194 01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:28.159 It's not in any way about good energy, creativity, accomplishment. 1195 01:04:29.429 --> 01:04:32.469 All they are, you know, the wife who knows how 1196 01:04:32.510 --> 01:04:36.639 to do things is really no different from the fashion 1197 01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:42.849 model with the bodacious body. It's just another possession for 1198 01:04:43.250 --> 01:04:45.949 the kind of person who would do that. The kind 1199 01:04:45.989 --> 01:04:49.429 of man who would do that is simply looking for 1200 01:04:49.449 --> 01:04:53.550 a better car, you know, a Lambo with a bigger engine, 1201 01:04:53.570 --> 01:04:56.829 a house with a second swimming pool. 1202 01:04:57.309 --> 01:05:03.090 It's banal. It's not a higher expression of human existence. 1203 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:04.119 Yeah. 1204 01:05:04.139 --> 01:05:07.219 It's so interesting that there's those kind of wealthy people, 1205 01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:10.409 like you said, looking for the next thing. They want 1206 01:05:10.449 --> 01:05:12.010 to have the best thing. They want to have the 1207 01:05:12.329 --> 01:05:17.530 flashiest item or car. And then there's people that are 1208

01:05:17.610 --> 01:05:24.429 just rich and relaxed because of it. And it's a 1209 01:05:24.469 --> 01:05:28.210 peaceful life. It's a generous life. It's a fun life. 1210 01:05:28.349 --> 01:05:33.829 It's a creative life. And You know, I've experienced both. Like, 1211 01:05:33.869 --> 01:05:37.820 it's so interesting, you know, and because it seems like, 1212 01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:41.059 you know, it's such a stratosphere of money that you 1213 01:05:41.139 --> 01:05:44.880 cannot relate to. It's really interesting to see how certain 1214 01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:48.360 people navigate that life, protect themselves, but are also still 1215 01:05:48.539 --> 01:05:51.059 open to new friendships and things. 1216 01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:53.199 Well, and, you know, on St. 1217 01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:58.550 Bart's, that expression is more often through the bigger boat, 1218 01:05:59.210 --> 01:06:03.289 the bigger party. the bigger house, the bigger piece of land. 1219 01:06:03.929 --> 01:06:07.519 It's not so much, you know, the girl, the arm 1220 01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.500 candy that you're walking around with. I'm sure those guys 1221 01:06:11.539 --> 01:06:15.619 have great looking women on their arms, but it's, again, 1222 01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:19.019 it might be important Christmas week, but the rest of 1223 01:06:19.059 --> 01:06:23.860 the year, St. Bart's is really, the heart of St. 1224 01:06:23.909 --> 01:06:29.769 Bart's is not about the money. The money is simply 1225 01:06:29.789 --> 01:06:33.789 a means to a higher end in that context. 1226 01:06:34.590 --> 01:06:34.909 Yeah. 1227 01:06:35.710 --> 01:06:38.460 Well, this was so interesting. I know everyone's going to 1228 01:06:38.539 --> 01:06:43.840 love the book. It is called Treasured Island. Comes out 1229 01:06:43.900 --> 01:06:49.699 June 16th. Thank you, Michael Gross. Check out his other books. 1230 01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:54.550 You listed them and they all sound so juicy and interesting, 1231 01:06:54.590 --> 01:06:57.230 which is why I'm glad you're on Juicy Scoop. And 1232 01:06:57.250 --> 01:07:00.030 a world that, you know, it's fun to crawl inside 1233 01:07:00.110 --> 01:07:03.050 and really get to learn about and know about and 1234 01:07:04.010 --> 01:07:07.699 just kind of escape. And I'm really grateful for you 1235 01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:10.360 being so open and what a life you've led. 1236 01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:11.699 Thank you for coming on. 1237 01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:13.000 Thank you. 1238 01:07:13.079 --> 01:07:15.260 And people can find out all about those books at 1239 01:07:15.300 --> 01:07:19.650 my website, which is simply mgross.com. And Treasured Island comes 1240 01:07:19.710 --> 01:07:21.789 out on June 16th and I hope people enjoy it. 1241 01:07:22.489 --> 01:07:24.090 Thank you so much. This is great. 1242 01:07:25.829 --> 01:07:28.070 They think you're done for the day, but they don't 1243 01:07:28.110 --> 01:07:33.679 know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square 1244 01:07:33.739 --> 01:07:37.579 before bed. Or two, you know. 1245 01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:39.519 Nobody's watching. 1246 01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:41.179 You deserve a treat. 1247 01:07:44.380 --> 01:07:47.000 With eight flavours to choose from, you can choose the 1248 01:07:47.059 --> 01:07:49.940 flavour you favour with Cadbury Dairy Milk.