บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ DEBATE! Icon Veneration on Trial Jay Dyer Vs Dr. David Wood

is an Eastern Orthodox Christian apologist and author. widely 77 00:03:44.830 --> 00:03:48.789 known for debating theology, philosophy, and culture. He has been 78 00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:56.439 on landmark platforms, including Tucker Carlson, Timcast IRL, InfoWars, and 79 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:00.099 is one of the biggest voices among Eastern Orthodox defenders. 80 00:04:00.379 --> 00:04:16.250 Please join me in welcoming Jay Dyer. And also please 81 00:04:16.290 --> 00:04:19.709 join me in welcoming Dr. David Wood, earned his PhD 82 00:04:19.730 --> 00:04:23.639 in philosophy at Fordham University in the philosophy of religion 83 00:04:23.899 --> 00:04:26.800 and is a Christian apologist and one of the biggest 84 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.279 voices among Protestant apologists online. 85 00:04:30.860 --> 00:04:33.459 Please join me in welcoming Dr. David Wood. 86 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:43.420 I'm going to let Jay take the podium as he'll 87 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:49.699 start us off for those opening statements. The floor is 88 00:04:49.740 --> 00:04:54.990 all yours, Jay. For our format, we'll have 15-minute opening statements. 89 00:05:01.110 --> 00:05:06.089 That'll be followed by 10-minute first rebuttals, 25 minutes of discussion, 90 00:05:06.310 --> 00:05:11.819 seven-minute second rebuttals, and finally five-minute closings, followed by Audience 91 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.689 Q & A. And then, Jay, just because the microphone 92 00:05:14.810 --> 00:05:15.329 is so. 93 00:05:15.790 --> 00:05:18.290 It goes limp. Yes, it does. That's what she said. 94 00:05:18.470 --> 00:05:22.870 It absolutely... Yeah, that's good. There you go. 95 00:05:22.870 --> 00:05:37.160 Test, test. Perfect. Test, test. Okay. Whoa. Friends, countrymen, lovers, Russians. 96 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:45.500 My handler, Lord Commander Vladimir Putin, told me that I 97 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.759 could not wear my full KGB outfit. So I went 98 00:05:48.819 --> 00:05:51.540 meta and I wore my shirt of me wearing a 99 00:05:51.579 --> 00:05:56.439 KGB outfit. So we're going to set this Soviet party 100 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.250 straight today because, as you guys probably know, I've been 101 00:06:00.290 --> 00:06:04.790 exposed as a Soviet. All right, let's bring up the 102 00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:08.209 first here. First slide as we get into. 103 00:06:11.899 --> 00:06:15.240 icon theology. Is that where it's going to be? 104 00:06:21.209 --> 00:06:24.089 Did you plug your laptop into the HDMI? It might 105 00:06:24.129 --> 00:06:24.889 not be registering. 106 00:06:25.149 --> 00:06:26.589 Oh, I thought he said to just send it to 107 00:06:26.649 --> 00:06:27.509 him and I would tell him. 108 00:06:27.769 --> 00:06:29.629 Oh, that's for the online audience. Sorry, I should have 109 00:06:29.810 --> 00:06:31.069 clarified that. Okay. 110 00:06:31.209 --> 00:06:32.180 Can we pause my time? 111 00:06:32.420 --> 00:06:32.620 Yeah. 112 00:06:39.300 --> 00:06:40.819 Do I

need to be connected to the internet or 113 00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:42.399 is it? good to just go. 114 00:06:43.259 --> 00:06:44.220 It should be good. 115 00:06:44.060 --> 00:06:50.459 Where it'll just take whatever you have and then if 116 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:52.040 you pop it into presentation mode. 117 00:06:56.939 --> 00:07:01.060 Where is that? Is that under... Let me figure. 118 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:07.660 That out from Google Slides. 119 00:07:07.730 --> 00:07:09.139 I'm wondering if I have to be on the internet 120 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:11.850 to do that. It's Google Slides. 121 00:07:13.790 --> 00:07:16.500 If you're able to download it, it might work, too. 122 00:07:16.509 --> 00:07:23.120 I don't even know Google Slides. I think Sean said it. Sean, 123 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:24.639 did you say PowerPoint? 124 00:07:28.019 --> 00:07:30.079 It may require me to connect to the internet, is 125 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:30.620 what I'm wondering. 126 00:07:30.860 --> 00:07:31.000 Oh. 127 00:07:32.139 --> 00:08:15.910 Well, that's actually easy to do. You're the guest. Does 128 00:08:15.930 --> 00:08:17.889 this also play video in case I want to play 129 00:08:17.910 --> 00:08:18.490 a video clip? 130 00:08:20.709 --> 00:08:21.129 Okay, cool. 131 00:08:24.430 --> 00:08:24.769 There we go. 132 00:08:29.050 --> 00:08:33.799 Okay, so I think the case here that I have 133 00:08:34.419 --> 00:08:39.059 to demonstrate is actually a pretty simple, straightforward case. Really, 134 00:08:39.100 --> 00:08:41.139 all I have to demonstrate is that from the Old 135 00:08:41.179 --> 00:08:44.000 Testament into the New Testament era and then into the 136 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:49.730 early patristic era, period, there is a normative reverence of 137 00:08:49.850 --> 00:08:55.340 created objects that extends beyond things like sacramentals, as we 138 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:59.740 would call them, into things like water in baptism, bread 139 00:08:59.779 --> 00:09:03.679 and wine in the Eucharistic offering, and also then to 140 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:08.840 holy venerated imagery. Holy venerated imagery, what we call iconodulia, 141 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:13.529 does not find its origin in late church father practice. 142 00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:16.399 It is not a pagan accretion. It is a principle 143 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:19.000 out of the Old Testament itself, and it's linked directly 144 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:20.909 to the correct. 145 00:09:20.570 --> 00:09:22.129 Theology of the Incarnation. 146 00:09:22.269 --> 00:09:27.009 So, iconography has, as its foundation and origin, the Old 147 00:09:27.049 --> 00:09:30.429 Testament worship. That doesn't begin with the tabernacle and the temple. 148 00:09:30.549 --> 00:09:31.669 In fact, this goes back. 149 00:09:31.570 --> 00:09:35.759 To the principles that we find in the Old Testament, 150 00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:39.159 particularly the book of Genesis, where we begin to see 151 00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:44.230 created objects hallowed and presented as in some ways, sacred 152 00:09:44.419 --> 00:09:47.549 beyond or out of the sphere of the normal mundane 153 00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:51.009 temporal objects. For example, we know about, in the case 154 00:09:51.110 --> 00:09:54.389 of Genesis, the oak of Mamre. And in Orthodox iconography, 155 00:09:54.409 --> 00:09:58.370 you'll see there that this famous Trinitarian reference with the 156 00:09:58.809 --> 00:10:01.110 meal that Abraham had, with the Lord and the two 157 00:10:01.210 --> 00:10:06.129 angels contains always in Orthodox iconography, the Oak of Mamre, 158 00:10:06.169 --> 00:10:09.389 which is a holy tree that the church fathers in 159 00:10:09.580 --> 00:10:13.860 New Testament typological exegesis posits as a type of the cross. 160 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.559 If we look at the story of Jacob, when Jacob 161 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.090 rests his head on the rock, the pillar. 162 00:10:20.750 --> 00:10:23.409 It's later anointed, and that becomes a type of Christ, 163 00:10:23.570 --> 00:10:24.049 the rock. 164 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:28.409 Now, these objects are not themselves God, but they take 165 00:10:28.529 --> 00:10:32.610 on a kind of theological significance beyond just symbology. They 166 00:10:32.669 --> 00:10:35.470 also become holy, and one of the clearest examples of 167 00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:36.970 that in the Old Testament, of course, is the Ark 168 00:10:36.990 --> 00:10:40.629 of the Covenant, the sacred central manifestation of the divine 169 00:10:40.669 --> 00:10:44.049 presence where we would have the glory cloud descend and 170 00:10:44.250 --> 00:10:46.669 meet with the people. It is spoken of later as 171 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:54.980 God's footstool. These also become principles integrated into Israel's liturgical worship. Veneration, 172 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:59.659 which is accorded to various types of objects in the 173 00:10:59.740 --> 00:11:04.539 ancient world, both by pagans and by God's people, is 174 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.769 not the same thing necessarily as idolatry. And Protestantism, for example, 175 00:11:08.889 --> 00:11:11.470 or even Islam, which is inconsistent, by the way, on this, 176 00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:14.379 Protestants are as well, they will tend to have a 177 00:11:14.419 --> 00:11:17.009 double standard about what you can and can't do through 178 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:21.990 veneration that is focused primarily upon external signifiers. In other words, 179 00:11:22.330 --> 00:11:25.850 if you bow down, that's the essential quality of what 180 00:11:25.870 --> 00:11:28.049 it is to be idolatrous. However, we look in the 181 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.799 book of Genesis, in Genesis 23, we see that Abraham 182 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:33.720 bowed before the people of the land as a sign 183 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:37.600 of deference and humility. In Genesis 33, Jacob bowed to 184 00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:41.559 the

ground seven times before Esau. Joseph's brethren bow before 185 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.509 him with their faces to the earth. In Genesis 42, 186 00:11:44.509 --> 00:11:47.460 1 Chronicles 29, 20, the congregation bowed their heads and 187 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.929 worshiped the Lord and the king. Now notice that same 188 00:11:50.970 --> 00:11:55.629 word there of worshiping refers to the Lord and the king. Now, 189 00:11:55.830 --> 00:11:58.789 obviously no one believes that David or the king or 190 00:11:58.830 --> 00:12:02.289 whoever is identical in an uncreated sense to the Lord, 191 00:12:02.330 --> 00:12:05.909 but there's a pairing of this iconographic similarity between the 192 00:12:06.009 --> 00:12:10.879 Lord and his representative on earth, the threefold offices of prophet, priest, 193 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:13.960 and king in the Old Testament, they can be honored 194 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:17.740 and revered without committing the sin of idolatry. Otherwise, all 195 00:12:17.779 --> 00:12:21.610 the Old Testament passages are all contradictory because Exodus 20 196 00:12:21.610 --> 00:12:23.009 says not to. 197 00:12:22.950 --> 00:12:25.250 Create images of things in heaven and earth, etc. 198 00:12:26.110 --> 00:12:28.470 But you'll notice no one is ever consistent with this 199 00:12:28.549 --> 00:12:32.629 except the orthodox position. We notice in 2 Kings 2 that, 200 00:12:32.669 --> 00:12:35.970 in fact, even prophets are bowed down to in reverence. 201 00:12:36.009 --> 00:12:39.070 So idolatry, as the book of Colossians says, is more 202 00:12:39.090 --> 00:12:43.600 akin to something like covetousness from the inner man first, 203 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:50.490 and then it extends itself externally to bodily actions which 204 00:12:50.570 --> 00:12:53.649 are not necessarily the essence of idolatry. So you could, 205 00:12:53.690 --> 00:12:58.090 for example, be an idolater about money and never bow 206 00:12:58.129 --> 00:13:01.730 down to a dollar bill. You could also bow down 207 00:13:01.850 --> 00:13:05.009 to a created object, a person who is an authority 208 00:13:05.090 --> 00:13:08.350 or a reverential deferential act, as we see in the 209 00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:11.210 ancient Near Eastern context, which is very common, without that 210 00:13:11.269 --> 00:13:16.149 being a violation of the Ten Commandments. Now we come 211 00:13:16.190 --> 00:13:20.340 to the principle of semiotics or the way that words 212 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:24.360 are sometimes used as iconographic imagery. Not all words are 213 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.039 necessarily iconographic. We think of script like ancient Chinese. They 214 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.330 actually take the, you know, the the The symbol itself 215 00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:33.970 kind of is mimicked on the basis of the way 216 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:37.450 the object looks. That's kind of iconographic. Japanese script is 217 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:40.750 very similar in ancient Japanese text. And although I'm not 218 00:13:40.789 --> 00:13:42.870 saying that that's directly the case with, for example, the 219 00:13:42.889 --> 00:13:45.190 name of God, the sacred name of Yahweh, it is 220 00:13:45.269 --> 00:13:49.879 still an iconographic principle at work here. The words Father, Son, 221 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:54.299 Holy Spirit, Yahweh, the name, the Tetragrammaton are sanctified words. 222 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:59.639 Ancient Israel says throughout its liturgical text of the Psalms, venerate, 223 00:13:59.740 --> 00:14:02.080 exalt the name, which is to raise up. That's going 224 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:03.879 to be important, what we talk about here in a moment. 225 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:07.519 And Jews, even to this day, still honor the Torah 226 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:10.399 in the service. They kiss it, they kiss the mezuzah, etc. 227 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.820 The academic insight here from, for example, just normative comparative 228 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.659 religion studies out of Oxford, the Lewis text here points 229 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:21.299 out that The use of fire and divine radiance, the 230 00:14:21.340 --> 00:14:24.860 Hebrew idea of the chabod, the theophanies in the Old Testament, 231 00:14:24.899 --> 00:14:29.159 these are visual manifestations of the divine, energetic manifestation in 232 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:33.000 orthodox theology. If you saw my debate with Daniel Hakikachu, 233 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:35.620 of course, the first 10 minutes I focused very heavily, 234 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.379 as well as many other Islamic debates, on the possibility 235 00:14:38.460 --> 00:14:41.570 of God actually manifesting in time and space in those 236 00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:44.509 Old Testament theophanies you have in Leviticus, I think it's 11, 237 00:14:44.509 --> 00:14:46.629 for example, where it says the glory of God descended 238 00:14:46.669 --> 00:14:49.240 in all of Israel. saw the glory cloud of God, 239 00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:52.539 and they worshiped it. God's glory is not a creature, 240 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.440 so we can't worship created things. So the name theology 241 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.299 of Deuteronomy and the Old Testament passages show us that 242 00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:03.360 words themselves are symbols. 243 00:15:03.460 --> 00:15:07.830 They're created, limited in time and space, bound. 244 00:15:08.870 --> 00:15:13.909 Semiotic references to something beyond that is transcendent. If the 245 00:15:13.950 --> 00:15:18.039 veneration of all imagery was what the Torah or what 246 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.659 the texts of the Old Testament were forbidding, because that's 247 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:23.059 how some Protestants and iconoclasts. 248 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.639 Read it, then there couldn't even be. 249 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.379 The veneration of the Torah itself, or you'll notice that 250 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:30.710

a lot of times Protestant Bibles say Holy Bible. I 251 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:34.870 thought there weren't holy objects anymore. No, rather the theology 252 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:37.830 of the logos that we find even in today's modern 253 00:15:37.929 --> 00:15:41.190 Jewish scholarship, such as Bodies of God in the World 254 00:15:41.250 --> 00:15:44.649 of Ancient Israel by Benjamin Sommer, a text that I've 255 00:15:44.669 --> 00:15:47.210 made quite a bit of use of, as well as 256 00:15:47.269 --> 00:15:52.090 Boyarin's text, Schaeffer's text, as well as Siegel, The Two Powers. 257 00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:54.929 Those are all dealing with theophanies and the manifestation of 258 00:15:54.950 --> 00:15:57.620 God in the Old Testament in a form, in a 259 00:15:57.889 --> 00:16:01.820 visible presence in some way, both to the heart and 260 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:02.940 to the eyes, in. 261 00:16:02.899 --> 00:16:05.379 Some cases, St. Gregory Palamas says, to the Old Testament 262 00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:07.100 believers and saints. 263 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:12.419 How is that possible if... you can't have imagery and iconography. No, 264 00:16:12.460 --> 00:16:16.120 rather the Old Testament itself teaches that Adam was made 265 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:19.629 in the icon, the image of God. And in the 266 00:16:19.690 --> 00:16:22.649 Orthodox theological conception, we actually, based on the New Testament, 267 00:16:22.669 --> 00:16:24.009 that he's made in the image of Christ. 268 00:16:24.129 --> 00:16:27.190 So there's a Christological component to Adam himself. 269 00:16:27.830 --> 00:16:32.019 That would mean that Adam is a Christological icon in 270 00:16:32.059 --> 00:16:35.519 his own very being. This gets into the patristic era's 271 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:40.690 theology of the archetype. The archetype is the The created 272 00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:44.409 temporal image that, excuse me, the type is the created 273 00:16:44.429 --> 00:16:47.429 temporal image that points back to the prototype or the archetype. 274 00:16:47.889 --> 00:16:51.789 This is common in early patristic logos theology where they 275 00:16:51.830 --> 00:16:55.169 talk about the logos being the image or the icon 276 00:16:55.230 --> 00:16:57.220 of the father. And of course, that's what's used in 277 00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.960 the New Testament in Colossians 1, Hebrews 1. 278 00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:02.679 Where we're told that the logos is the icon of 279 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:03.179 the father. 280 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:07.019 Jesus says in John 5 and then later on in chapters, well, 281 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.059 basically 5 through 9, in the debates with the Pharisees 282 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:12.960 that no one saw the Father at any time, but 283 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.500 yet we're told in Exodus that God met face to 284 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.359 face with Moses. Jesus is telling the Pharisees, I was 285 00:17:19.420 --> 00:17:21.839 the one meeting face to face with Moses because as 286 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:23.400 Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10. 287 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:26.970 Say, he is the glory and the face of the Father. 288 00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:31.900 Veneration and worship exists in the Old Testament in a 289 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:36.779 not-so-Protestant way. In Psalm 5 and 7 and Psalm 138 too, 290 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:39.579 I will worship toward the holy temple. So notice there's 291 00:17:39.619 --> 00:17:44.400 a directional, created, temporal manifestation of where you're to direct 292 00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:48.420 your cultic gaze, as the scholarship calls it. You don't 293 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.700 just worship in any old direction. You specifically focus towards 294 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.680 the temple where the footstool. 295 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:55.400 Aka the ark, is. 296 00:17:55.460 --> 00:17:58.480 And we know that because David in 1 Chronicles 28 297 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.829 calls the house and the ark the footstool of God. 298 00:18:02.410 --> 00:18:06.089 So there's a specific location where you focus that worship. 299 00:18:06.109 --> 00:18:08.650 It is the meeting place of God, heaven and earth. 300 00:18:09.049 --> 00:18:13.190 That is obviously a type both of St. Mary, the Theotokos, 301 00:18:13.269 --> 00:18:16.799 in terms of the ark itself, but also the meeting place, 302 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:19.880 the footstool of God, is Christ himself in human form, 303 00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:25.329 God in flesh. John, excuse me, Joshua 7, 6 to 304 00:18:25.329 --> 00:18:29.059 7 has a fascinating incident too, where the elders and 305 00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:31.839 Joshua fall down on their face before the ark and 306 00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:36.079 remain there until the evening. So notice in some of 307 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.880 these passages, we are not told that there's a specific 308 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.849 theophanic manifestation. We're not told in this passage that the 309 00:18:41.869 --> 00:18:45.930 glory appeared. Sometimes it does like in Leviticus 10 or 11. 310 00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:48.849 And then in some cases here, we don't actually see 311 00:18:48.890 --> 00:18:52.289 that theophanic manifestation, so it's not necessarily wrong to still 312 00:18:52.349 --> 00:18:55.640 prostrate before the ark and the temple. Now, the angel 313 00:18:55.660 --> 00:18:58.819 of the Lord does say here to Joshua, go ahead 314 00:18:58.859 --> 00:19:02.220 and get up, but he's not castigating him for bowing down. 315 00:19:02.259 --> 00:19:06.410 He's castigating him for continuing to intercede when God. 316 00:19:06.230 --> 00:19:09.369 Has already decided that Israel deserves chastisement. How much time 317 00:19:09.390 --> 00:19:13.329 do I have? Okay, Old Testament iconography, I'm going to 318 00:19:13.369 --> 00:19:14.029 go fast here. 319 00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:19.400 The Old Testament has itself a directed pattern that goes

into, 320 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:24.720 moves into early New Testament church worship. Hebrew University professor 321 00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:27.289 Rachel Elior, she talks about in her work on the 322 00:19:27.420 --> 00:19:30.210 angelic liturgy and the heavenly temple, that becomes the pattern 323 00:19:30.269 --> 00:19:34.950 and the archetype that Hebrews 9, 10, and 11 discuss 324 00:19:35.210 --> 00:19:39.099 as the heavenly city on earth, the heavenly worship on earth. 325 00:19:39.809 --> 00:19:42.960 So this is an older Hebrew concept from Hebrew scholarship. 326 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.480 The Douro-Europos Synagogue, we're probably familiar with this by now. 327 00:19:45.940 --> 00:19:49.250 This is showing that third century Jewish synagogues were not 328 00:19:49.390 --> 00:19:52.440 iconoclastic even. This is one of the oldest synagogues out there, 329 00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:58.119 240-245 AD, and it includes all kinds of biblical imagery, 330 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.700 including images of Moses. Protestant scholars like Hugh Wybrew in 331 00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:04.619 his liturgical history and text, he's an Anglican scholar on 332 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.480 the history of the Byzantine liturgy, notes the same thing 333 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.200 about the construction of house churches, that they were not 334 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.900 low church. They were in fact full of imagery, iconography, 335 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.880 the reverence and veneration of the cross. And in fact, 336 00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:22.200 I recommend everybody who's an iconoclast go to Rome into 337 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:22.880 the catacombs. 338 00:20:23.549 --> 00:20:24.289 There's many of them. 339 00:20:24.380 --> 00:20:26.150 You can't even see them all within a week or two. 340 00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:28.730 You'd have to spend two or three, maybe four weeks 341 00:20:28.769 --> 00:20:31.950 to see them all. But you'll notice in these early catacombs, 342 00:20:32.009 --> 00:20:37.000 even in the 200s, there are There's baptistries, there's altars 343 00:20:37.059 --> 00:20:41.150 that are also tombs that include iconographic imagery. In the 344 00:20:41.190 --> 00:20:43.869 Epistle of Barnabas, for example, early on in 70 to 345 00:20:43.869 --> 00:20:46.150 130 AD, this is why the church would have done this. 346 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:48.869 There is a reference to the lifting up of the 347 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.789 bronze serpent on the pole, and that is, of course, 348 00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:51.809 a type of Christ. 349 00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:52.589 They are told to. 350 00:20:52.609 --> 00:20:56.029 Exalt and raise up the standard of the cross. This 351 00:20:56.069 --> 00:20:58.829 was a common trope in the early church when they 352 00:20:58.950 --> 00:21:02.859 Christianized the notion of the Roman banners as a victory standard. 353 00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:06.660 That's why as early as Origen and Tertullian, people who 354 00:21:06.700 --> 00:21:10.089 are usually thought to be iconoclasts, they actually mention the 355 00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:13.589 prevalent practice of raising up the banner and the standards. 356 00:21:13.650 --> 00:21:17.109 I think Tertullian mentions this on the nations, against the nations. 357 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:20.430 This is one of the earliest images, the early 200s, 358 00:21:20.529 --> 00:21:23.750 of the veneration of the Theotokos. There is a prophet 359 00:21:23.789 --> 00:21:25.970 there behind her, pointing at her. This is in the 360 00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:30.259 Catacombs of Priscilla. This is one of the earliest Eucharistic 361 00:21:30.380 --> 00:21:33.440 imagery in one of the chapels. This is called the 362 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:38.420 Fractio Panis in the Catacombs of Priscilla in Rome. And 363 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:41.420 this is where relics would have been, according to historian Wilpert, 364 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.160 that I think discovered this. These are also what are 365 00:21:44.180 --> 00:21:47.480 known as archosoliums. These are the arched martyr tombs that 366 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.819 also double as altars. When we read about the martyrdom 367 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.759 of St. Polycarp, we read that his relics were considered 368 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:57.420 in 150 AD more precious than gold because the deified 369 00:21:57.460 --> 00:22:01.220 bodies of the saints image the divine and convey that. 370 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:04.640 grace to us, as do the icons. These are second 371 00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:08.319 century catacomb frescoes where Eucharist would have been served in 372 00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:13.539 the catacombs as well. Ancient Roman catacombs already show us, 373 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.549 for example, that this one was only found in 2010. 374 00:22:16.549 --> 00:22:20.190 This is the image of the four of the apostles. 375 00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:21.529 This is the apostle John. 376 00:22:23.009 --> 00:22:26.509 Protestant scholarship is not, and secular scholarship, is not unanimous 377 00:22:26.549 --> 00:22:28.410 against this. In fact, you can see this is Michael 378 00:22:28.450 --> 00:22:32.059 Garton's excellent text, Early Icons, where he lists all sorts 379 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.680 of varying positions amongst various scholars. 380 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.380 From biblical scholars, religious stories, huh? 381 00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:38.940 10 second warning. 382 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:42.109 And then we have in the new Testament, the kiss 383 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.029 of peace, where we're told to kiss each other, uh, 384 00:22:45.049 --> 00:22:47.609 as a form of showing love amongst the brethren. And 385 00:22:47.630 --> 00:22:50.289 in revelation five through nine, we are shown in those 386 00:22:50.309 --> 00:22:53.250 chapters that we are also worshiping with the saints in heaven. 387 00:22:53.329 --> 00:22:55.569 The saints are not dead. They are in

heaven with us. 388 00:22:55.609 --> 00:22:59.730 And so it does make sense to, uh, kiss their 389 00:23:00.190 --> 00:23:01.650 image like we would honor the U.S. 390 00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:02.450 Flag, et cetera. 391 00:23:03.490 --> 00:23:06.289 Thank you very much for that opening, Jay. Appreciate that. 392 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.559 Then I've got the timer set for you as well, David. 393 00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:54.799 There we go. 394 00:24:10.009 --> 00:24:10.329 Perfect. 395 00:24:10.349 --> 00:24:17.109 All right, well, thank you, James, and special thanks to 396 00:24:17.490 --> 00:24:21.869 Jay and Orthobros everywhere for demanding that I stop spending 397 00:24:22.009 --> 00:24:26.670 so much time refuting Islam and start focus on debating 398 00:24:27.130 --> 00:24:32.369 the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy. First up, icon veneration. For 399 00:24:32.410 --> 00:24:34.869 those of you who are new to this, as I 400 00:24:34.910 --> 00:24:39.259 was just a few months ago, this is an icon. 401 00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:46.039 It's an icon of Peter and Paul. Venerating this icon 402 00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:50.769 would include acts such as Bowing to it, kissing it, 403 00:24:50.869 --> 00:24:54.650 lighting candles in front of it, burning incense, and praying 404 00:24:54.829 --> 00:24:57.410 while looking at it. Of course, if you go back 405 00:24:57.890 --> 00:25:01.670 to the 8th and 9th centuries during the controversy, veneration 406 00:25:01.710 --> 00:25:07.549 could also include shaving it and putting the particles in 407 00:25:07.569 --> 00:25:11.549 the communion wine, serving the Eucharist bread on it instead 408 00:25:11.609 --> 00:25:15.680 of on a plate. and even having the icon serve 409 00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:18.809 as the baptism sponsor. I don't think they do that anymore, 410 00:25:18.890 --> 00:25:23.130 but what do I know? Icon veneration is a pretty 411 00:25:23.410 --> 00:25:26.170 late development in the Christian world, but once it became popular, 412 00:25:26.950 --> 00:25:31.119 it provoked a reaction. And the initial reaction was, this 413 00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:36.480 kind of looks like idolatry. So the critics of icon 414 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.700 veneration pointed to the Bible and they started with the 415 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:43.119 second commandment, Exodus 20, You shall not make for yourself 416 00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:46.119 an image in the form of anything in heaven above 417 00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:48.759 or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 418 00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:52.079 You shall not bow down to them or worship them. 419 00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:58.049 Lots of Bible passages that condemn idolatry are about pagan gods, 420 00:25:58.130 --> 00:26:02.950 but there are also lots of passages that condemn bowing 421 00:26:03.049 --> 00:26:05.509 to things that we make with our hands or to 422 00:26:05.569 --> 00:26:09.910 things that are lifeless and can't do anything. Habakkuk 2, 423 00:26:09.910 --> 00:26:12.519 of what value is an idol carved by a craftsman 424 00:26:12.579 --> 00:26:15.259 or an image that teaches lies? For the one who 425 00:26:15.339 --> 00:26:18.160 makes it trusts in his own creation. He makes idols 426 00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.779 that cannot speak. Woe to him who says to wood, 427 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.359 come to life, or to lifeless stone, wake up. Can 428 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:27.349 it give guidance? It is covered with gold and silver. 429 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:31.869 There is no breath in it. Jeremiah 10, every man 430 00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:35.569 is stupid and without knowledge. Love that verse. Every goldsmith 431 00:26:35.630 --> 00:26:38.329 is put to shame by his idols, for his images 432 00:26:38.410 --> 00:26:43.589 are false, and there is no breath in them. Psalm 115, 433 00:26:43.589 --> 00:26:45.789 why should the nation say, where is their God? Our 434 00:26:45.809 --> 00:26:48.250 God is in the heavens. He does all that he pleases. 435 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:52.359 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. 436 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:55.000 They have mouths, but do not speak, eyes, but do 437 00:26:55.059 --> 00:26:57.799 not see. They have ears, but do not hear, noses, 438 00:26:57.859 --> 00:27:00.440 but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel, feet, 439 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.440 but do not walk, and they do not make a 440 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.250 sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them, 441 00:27:06.549 --> 00:27:11.390 so do all who trust in them. Isaiah 44, after 442 00:27:12.230 --> 00:27:14.220 describing a man cutting down a tree and using some 443 00:27:14.259 --> 00:27:15.720 of the wood for fire and some of it to 444 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:16.779 make an idol, says. 445 00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:19.420 David, sorry, if you're able to just hold the mic 446 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.819 a little bit, maybe closer, maybe about two, three inches away. 447 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.259 Check, check. Like that? 448 00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:25.160 Okay. 449 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.000 So after talking about this, it says, no one stops 450 00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.359 to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, 451 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:33.900 half of it are used for fuel... I even baked 452 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.849 bread over its coals. I roasted meat and I ate. 453 00:27:37.009 --> 00:27:39.190 Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? 454 00:27:39.650 --> 00:27:45.410 Shall I bow down to a block of wood? To 455 00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:47.809 be clear, as far as making images that would be 456 00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:51.430 used in a religious context, there are some exceptions in 457 00:27:51.450 --> 00:27:55.329 the Bible. Most significantly, for the tabernacle and the temple, 458 00:27:55.670 --> 00:28:01.670 there were cherubim, lions, oxen, palm trees, almond blossoms, and pomegranates.

459 00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:05.180 But God warned the children of Israel to stick to 460 00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:10.819 the pattern he revealed exactly. Exodus 25, make this tabernacle 461 00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:14.420 and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will 462 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.380 show you. So the one who gave the command also 463 00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:21.240 had the authority to make some sort of exception to 464 00:28:21.259 --> 00:28:24.119 the command. But there are people who read about the 465 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:26.240 tabernacle and say, well, if God made some sort of 466 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.920 exception to the general rule, then we can make all 467 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.319 the exceptions exactly We want, and in fact, we can 468 00:28:31.339 --> 00:28:34.339 just pretend there was never any rule. I'm pretty sure 469 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:37.000 that doesn't follow, but at least note that the tabernacle 470 00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:41.099 and temple furnishings were for decoration, not for veneration. Hope 471 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.849 you're not venerating pomegranates. But why shouldn't we bow to 472 00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.809 an image made of wood according to the Bible? The 473 00:28:49.849 --> 00:28:54.130 point seems to be this. Our God is a living God. 474 00:28:55.430 --> 00:28:58.299 And God made us in his image. Human beings were 475 00:28:58.339 --> 00:29:01.380 created in the image of God. We're the living image 476 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:05.660 of the living God. But we create lifeless images and 477 00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:09.059 bow to them. And in doing so, we degrade ourselves 478 00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:13.009 and dishonor God. We bow to something that's lower than 479 00:29:13.089 --> 00:29:17.329 we are. So we've got God. God creates human beings 480 00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:21.369 in his image. Then human beings create lifeless images and 481 00:29:21.470 --> 00:29:29.099 bow to them. What do icon venerators call themselves? Call 482 00:29:29.130 --> 00:29:34.839 themselves iconodules or iconophiles. What's an iconodule? The word iconodule 483 00:29:34.900 --> 00:29:39.869 comes from the Greek words akon, image or icon, and doulos. 484 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:45.640 slave or servant. An iconodule is a slave to images. 485 00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:51.880 Iconodulia is slavery to images. God creates man in his image. 486 00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.769 Man creates lifeless images, and when God says don't bow 487 00:29:55.829 --> 00:29:59.029 to lifeless images, man replies, but we're the slaves of 488 00:29:59.069 --> 00:30:04.049 these lifeless images. And not only do they proclaim themselves 489 00:30:04.130 --> 00:30:06.710 to be image slaves, they also proclaim that if you 490 00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:11.069 refuse to be an image slave, anathema, you're cut off 491 00:30:11.109 --> 00:30:14.930 from God for refusing to bow to these images. They 492 00:30:14.950 --> 00:30:17.059 had

a church council to make it official, Second Council 493 00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:20.720 of Nicaea, Nicaea II, says you have to venerate icons 494 00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.640 or you're cut off from the church and from God. 495 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:28.220 Nicaea 2 also says that if you quote the Bible 496 00:30:28.339 --> 00:30:34.319 passages I just quoted in response to icon veneration, anathema. 497 00:30:35.380 --> 00:30:38.480 I'm cut off from God simply for bringing up what 498 00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:42.839 the Bible says. The council declares anathema to those who 499 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:45.960 apply the statements of divine scripture against idols to the 500 00:30:46.049 --> 00:30:49.349 venerable images. Anathema to those who do not kiss the 501 00:30:49.410 --> 00:30:53.109 holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the 502 00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:57.250 sacred images idols. Now, you don't need to use the 503 00:30:57.269 --> 00:30:59.869 word idol. You don't need to call these idols to 504 00:30:59.930 --> 00:31:02.650 make the point. The point is simple. The Bible, over 505 00:31:02.690 --> 00:31:04.730 and over again, says don't bow to lifeless images that 506 00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:07.869 you make with your hands. But apart from this, the 507 00:31:07.910 --> 00:31:14.900 Bible uses the word for idol, eidolon, pretty interchangeably with 508 00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:19.420 the word eikon, the Greek word for icon. For instance, 509 00:31:19.460 --> 00:31:23.839 Deuteronomy 4.16 says, Beware lest you act corruptly by making 510 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.900 a carved image for yourselves in the form of any figure, 511 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:31.950 the likeness of male or female. Image here in the 512 00:31:31.970 --> 00:31:35.650 Greek is a cone, icon. It's the same in the 513 00:31:35.690 --> 00:31:39.650 New Testament. Romans 1. Claiming to be wise, they became 514 00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:46.299 fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images, icons, 515 00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.140 resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 516 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:53.640 So I don't see why you shouldn't be at least 517 00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:58.140 allowed to raise the issue without being anathematized, but that's 518 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:03.180 Nicaea too. Another response from the council to charges of 519 00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:08.039 idolatry is that iconodules, image slaves, don't honor the images 520 00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:12.349 with the worship or adoration due to God alone. Instead, 521 00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:17.990 they merely venerate the images. What's the problem here? Well, 522 00:32:18.410 --> 00:32:21.410 the word they're using for venerate is proskuneo, The Bible 523 00:32:21.450 --> 00:32:23.869 says again and again and again in the Greek Old 524 00:32:23.890 --> 00:32:30.490 Testament that the council used, don't proskuneo images. Even in 525 00:32:30.509 --> 00:32:33.759 the second commandment, you shall not bow down to proskuneo 526 00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:38.240 them or worship them. Psalm 97, all who worship proskuneo 527 00:32:38.380 --> 00:32:40.400 images are put to shame. There are tons of these. 528 00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:45.579 But the bishops at Nicaea too use the word proskinesis 529 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.720 to defend what they do to images because proskinesis, as 530 00:32:50.059 --> 00:32:53.140 Jay was pointing out, isn't limited to worship, although in 531 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:56.940 both the Greek Old Testament and New Testament, it's usually 532 00:32:57.059 --> 00:33:01.049 used for worshiping God or false gods. But proskynesis can 533 00:33:01.180 --> 00:33:05.509 also refer to a non-religious act of bowing to a king, 534 00:33:05.549 --> 00:33:09.089 for instance. It's the same word because prostrating before God 535 00:33:09.269 --> 00:33:12.450 in worship looks very similar to prostrating before a king. 536 00:33:13.589 --> 00:33:16.470 But the distinction in meaning is provided by the context. 537 00:33:16.509 --> 00:33:20.789 Is it a religious act or a non-religious act? Either way, 538 00:33:20.829 --> 00:33:23.230 the Bible says over and over, like a beating drum, 539 00:33:23.309 --> 00:33:25.829 don't proskuneo lifeless images that you make with your hands. 540 00:33:26.650 --> 00:33:30.190 And the response of Nicaea 2 is, hey, we're not 541 00:33:30.250 --> 00:33:32.490 giving them the worship and adoration due to God alone. 542 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:36.079 We're just proskuneoing them, which is exactly what it says 543 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.339 not to do to lifeless images. Another response from Nicaea 544 00:33:40.339 --> 00:33:45.440 2 is that it's okay to proskuneo icons because the veneration, proskinesis, 545 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:49.410 that we give to the icons transfers to whatever is pictured. 546 00:33:50.299 --> 00:33:55.700 So if you proskuneo this image of Peter, proskinesis, you 547 00:33:55.789 --> 00:34:01.109 give transfers to Peter. But this doesn't work. In Acts 10, 548 00:34:01.089 --> 00:34:04.970 we read about Peter's visit with Cornelius. Verse 25, as 549 00:34:05.069 --> 00:34:07.950 Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at 550 00:34:07.990 --> 00:34:11.110 his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. 551 00:34:11.409 --> 00:34:15.820 Stand up, he said. I'm only a man myself. Fell 552 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.219 at his feet in reverence here is just proskuneo. Cornelius 553 00:34:19.460 --> 00:34:23.159 proskuneoed the apostle Peter. And the apostle Peter said, don't 554 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.949 do that to me. I'm just a man. The book 555 00:34:27.969 --> 00:34:30.289 of Revelation, an angel had a similar reaction when the 556 00:34:30.349 --> 00:34:34.429 apostle John proskuneoed him. At this I fell at his 557 00:34:34.489 --> 00:34:38.170 feet to worship, proskuneo him, but he said to me, 558 00:34:38.210 --> 00:34:40.610

don't do that. I'm a fellow servant with you and 559 00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.219 with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony 560 00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:48.719 of Jesus. Worship, proskuneo God. Don't proskuneo me, proskuneo God. 561 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:55.079 So in an effort to justify proskuneoing images, which God 562 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:58.420 commands us not to do, The Orthodox Church says it's 563 00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.760 okay because when we proskuneo an image of Peter or 564 00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:07.559 an angel, the proskonesis passes on to Peter or the angel, 565 00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:11.469 even though Peter and the angel both said, don't do 566 00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:14.949 that to us. Apparently the best way to honor Peter 567 00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:18.750 and the angel is to disobey them. This leads to 568 00:35:18.789 --> 00:35:22.300 another problem, namely the Orthodox Church insisting that its practices, 569 00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:26.900 including icon veneration, go back to the apostles. Peter says, 570 00:35:27.449 --> 00:35:29.670 Don't venerate him, even if he's standing right in front 571 00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:32.809 of you. An angel tells the apostle John, don't venerate me, 572 00:35:32.929 --> 00:35:35.530 even if I'm standing right in front of you. Are 573 00:35:35.570 --> 00:35:38.809 we seriously supposed to believe that Peter and the angel 574 00:35:38.929 --> 00:35:42.070 would have been fine if Cornelius and the apostle John 575 00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:47.010 had venerated pictures instead of Peter and the angel themselves? 576 00:35:48.579 --> 00:35:51.400 Contrary to the claims of the Orthodox Church, icon veneration 577 00:35:51.460 --> 00:35:53.719 does not go back to the apostles. It developed much, 578 00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.760 much later. Don't take my word for it. Here's what 579 00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:00.820 historians say. Richard Price, the Roman Catholic priest who translated 580 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:04.719 the Acts of the Second Council of Nicaea, admits, the 581 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:08.750 iconoclasts claim that reverence towards images did not go back 582 00:36:08.789 --> 00:36:11.250 to the golden age of the fathers, still less to 583 00:36:11.289 --> 00:36:15.269 the apostles, would be judged by impartial historians today to 584 00:36:15.309 --> 00:36:19.530 be simply correct. The iconophile view of The history of 585 00:36:19.570 --> 00:36:22.829 Christian thought and devotion was virtually a denial of history 586 00:36:23.329 --> 00:36:25.650 in favor of a myth of a religion that had 587 00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:28.530 been perfect from the first and needed no addition or subtraction. 588 00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:32.429 He calls Jay's view a denial of history and a myth. 589 00:36:33.739 --> 00:36:36.340 But maybe we don't trust Richard Price because he's Roman Catholic. 590 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:41.559 Eastern Orthodox scholar Laurent Klinowork, one will not find in 591 00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:44.969 the pre-Nicene era any clear exposition of the current Eastern 592 00:36:45.010 --> 00:36:49.199 Orthodox theology of icons or uncreated energies. Eastern Orthodox Bishop 593 00:36:49.219 --> 00:36:53.289 Callistus where? Not until the period following Justinian, during the 594 00:36:53.309 --> 00:36:56.989 years 550 to 650, did the veneration of icons in 595 00:36:57.050 --> 00:37:00.670 churches and private homes become widely accepted in the devotional 596 00:37:00.710 --> 00:37:04.210 life of Eastern Christians. By the years 650 to 750, 597 00:37:04.210 --> 00:37:06.599 the first attempts were made by Christian writers to provide 598 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:10.380 a doctrinal basis for this growing cult of icons. Again, 599 00:37:10.539 --> 00:37:15.820 icon veneration, iconidulia, image slavery, was a late development. And again, 600 00:37:15.940 --> 00:37:18.059 once it became popular, there was a reaction to it. 601 00:37:19.019 --> 00:37:23.179 In 754, 338 bishops gathered for what was claimed to 602 00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:26.639 be the seventh ecumenical council, the Council of Hieria, and 603 00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:29.710 condemned icon veneration. But the council wasn't the end of 604 00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:33.409 the story, because the Byzantine Emperor Constantine V died 21 605 00:37:33.409 --> 00:37:36.650 years later. His son Leo IV took over, and he 606 00:37:36.670 --> 00:37:40.190 died five years later of tuberculosis, leaving his wife Irene 607 00:37:40.550 --> 00:37:43.349 in charge, because their son was only nine years old, 608 00:37:43.429 --> 00:37:49.070 much like Aisha. Empress Irene had been a secret iconodule, 609 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:53.519 image slave, but now she controlled the empire. Seizing the opportunity, 610 00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:58.539 she isolated her young son from any iconoclast influences, and 611 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.619 she elevated her secretary, Tirasius, who was a layman, not 612 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.840 a bishop or a priest or a deacon, to Patriarch 613 00:38:05.889 --> 00:38:08.440 of Constantinople. They had to fast-track him. They ordained him 614 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:10.659 as a deacon, then as a priest, then consecrated him 615 00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:15.539 as a bishop, then finally elected him Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, 616 00:38:16.019 --> 00:38:18.280 all within a period of a few days in December 617 00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:23.239 of 784. As the new Patriarch of Constantinople, he convened 618 00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:26.460 a council to overturn the Council of Hieria's condemnation of 619 00:38:26.619 --> 00:38:30.800 icon veneration. Many bishops objected, and the army stepped in 620 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.530 and said, what do you think you're doing here, Terassius? 621 00:38:32.570 --> 00:38:35.480 We already had a council on this. So the new 622 00:38:35.539 --> 00:38:38.690 council got shut down and Irene started moving

the iconoclast 623 00:38:38.710 --> 00:38:41.329 soldiers to other parts of the empire. And then they 624 00:38:41.389 --> 00:38:44.090 moved the council to Nicaea because there was still too 625 00:38:44.110 --> 00:38:49.019 much resistance to iconodulia in Constantinople. For the second council 626 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.219 of Nicaea, Tarassius, the secretary who was elevated a patriarch, 627 00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:55.280 got the Pope to send legates, but the other three 628 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.179 patriarchates didn't even know about the council. So Tarassius had 629 00:38:58.539 --> 00:39:03.510 two monks pretend to be the representatives of Alexandria, Antioch, 630 00:39:03.550 --> 00:39:06.789 and Jerusalem. The bishops at Nicaea too relied on some 631 00:39:07.530 --> 00:39:11.599 spurious and misattributed sources and some very strange interpretations of scripture. 632 00:39:12.139 --> 00:39:14.639 Their main argument was based on a complete distortion of 633 00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.400 what Basil the Great actually said. And in the end, 634 00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:20.179 they made icon veneration part of the gospel. If you 635 00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.179 want to be saved, you must be an image slave. 636 00:39:23.929 --> 00:39:25.210 The rest of us are supposed to look at this 637 00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:30.260 council and say, yep, it's infallible. What's that? 10 seconds. warning. 638 00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:37.460 I'll just say that if that's infallible, what would fallible 639 00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:41.809 look like? Thank you very much for that opening, Dr. 640 00:39:41.829 --> 00:39:42.389 David Woods. 641 00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:54.400 And we'll welcome Jay up for his first rebuttal. And 642 00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:56.340 then gentlemen want to ask if you guys are okay 643 00:39:56.380 --> 00:40:00.780 with cutting one minute from each of the rebuttals, just 644 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:04.170 as we're striving to get back on track time-wise. Does 645 00:40:04.190 --> 00:40:04.969 that work for you guys? 646 00:40:05.309 --> 00:40:05.730 Doing what? 647 00:40:06.429 --> 00:40:08.889 If we could cut one minute from each of the rebuttals. 648 00:40:08.909 --> 00:40:10.289 Okay, can we just sit here, or do I need 649 00:40:10.309 --> 00:40:11.730 to get back up there? Up to you. 650 00:40:12.210 --> 00:40:12.389 Okay. 651 00:40:12.989 --> 00:40:13.469 Yeah, so. 652 00:40:14.090 --> 00:40:16.159 So nine minutes. That'll save time, not going back. 653 00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:16.699 Yeah. 654 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:17.320 Cool. So. 655 00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:22.800 Well, we did exactly what I thought would happen here, right? 656 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:26.090 David did exactly what I already addressed in my opening. 657 00:40:26.110 --> 00:40:27.429 Bring the mic, if you can hold the mic. 658 00:40:27.829 --> 00:40:30.630 So it's maybe about two, just two inches from your face. 659 00:40:30.849 --> 00:40:34.409 So basically, he did

essentially what we knew he would do. Now, 660 00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:37.889 he made a lot of claims here. We saw, for example, 661 00:40:37.909 --> 00:40:43.099 that this is a late development. I gave multiple examples 662 00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:47.159 and instances, images, and there's many, many, many more that 663 00:40:47.409 --> 00:40:50.010 exist throughout the Roman Empire, not just in the Roman Empire, 664 00:40:50.030 --> 00:40:54.820 but even in other areas with tombs of the martyrs, catacombs, etc., 665 00:40:54.610 --> 00:40:57.090 inscriptions that include prayers to the dead over the tombs 666 00:40:57.130 --> 00:40:57.670 of the martyrs. 667 00:40:58.309 --> 00:41:00.130 This is very easy to access. 668 00:41:00.670 --> 00:41:03.340 David seems to have relied upon a single one or 669 00:41:03.380 --> 00:41:07.599 two scholars for his rebuttal there, but If we look at, 670 00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:11.960 for example, Michael Garten's excellent book on iconography addressing the 671 00:41:12.019 --> 00:41:16.170 recent scholarship across the board, not just in Protestant biblical theology, 672 00:41:16.210 --> 00:41:19.309 but also outside of that into the history of archaeology, 673 00:41:20.210 --> 00:41:23.130 in the history of art history, we have, for example, 674 00:41:23.789 --> 00:41:27.820 Robert Button mentions apotropaic cross images in the first and 675 00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:30.260 second century. I mentioned in my opening statement, you have 676 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:34.340 Clement of Alexandria in the Stromata. You have him mentioning 677 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.960 insignet rings with signifiers of your baptism. There's a very 678 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.760 common practice in Alexandria in the church in the second 679 00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:45.360 century where you would have an image imprinted on that. 680 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.119 That could be fish and loaves, it could be an ichthus, 681 00:41:48.429 --> 00:41:49.630 it could be Christ himself. 682 00:41:50.130 --> 00:41:51.409 There's royal portraiture. 683 00:41:51.449 --> 00:41:53.610 In fact, Eusebius, if you actually read what he says 684 00:41:53.670 --> 00:42:00.329 in context, mentions the prevalent practice of royal portraiture, miraculous 685 00:42:01.190 --> 00:42:06.179 saint portraits and images. There's the statue he mentions, for example, 686 00:42:06.219 --> 00:42:09.119 the statue of, the name of it is, the statue 687 00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:14.360 of Christ mentioned by Eusebius in his church history. There's 688 00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:17.400 the trophy of the panacea, which is honored like the 689 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:18.380 tombs of the martyrs. 690 00:42:18.820 --> 00:42:21.000 There's also texts that are against. 691 00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:25.070 Us, the Gnostic arguments that come out of the Acts 692 00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:27.030 of John, and the only reason I'm citing that as 693 00:42:27.070 --> 00:42:30.190 a Gnostic text is that

he's complaining about the prevalent 694 00:42:30.230 --> 00:42:35.230 Christian practice of the veneration of images. Bruce Longenecker mentions 695 00:42:35.329 --> 00:42:38.260 apotropaic cross images existed already in the first century. I 696 00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:42.059 mentioned Tertullian as well in Against the Nations. Origen also 697 00:42:42.139 --> 00:42:45.699 mentions this with the veneration of relics in the Christian altars. 698 00:42:45.739 --> 00:42:48.380 This is in his homily on Joshua. 699 00:42:49.539 --> 00:42:54.530 We have, for example, James Hadley, Alan Faber, Margaret Mitchell, 700 00:42:54.869 --> 00:43:01.710 Michael Propard, Lucinda Driven, Q.Q. Reiners, Felicity Hartley, et cetera, 701 00:43:01.769 --> 00:43:05.369 Robin Jensen. They all admit that the veneration of the 702 00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:08.289 cross and the veneration of various forms of imagery, relics, 703 00:43:08.349 --> 00:43:11.820 et cetera, all exist prior to Nicaea. So these are 704 00:43:12.059 --> 00:43:19.400 multiple pre-Nicene scholarly references that challenge David's bland, sweeping assumption 705 00:43:19.579 --> 00:43:21.539 and argument that they just don't exist. 706 00:43:21.860 --> 00:43:25.340 It's a late development. I'd like to hear him address 707 00:43:25.539 --> 00:43:27.800 any of these patristic claims. And there's many, many more. 708 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.789 We can go into Ignatius of Antioch, the epistle of 709 00:43:30.829 --> 00:43:34.769 Barnabas talking about the bronze serpent on a pole lifted up. 710 00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:37.309 The Greek word that's used there is to exalt or 711 00:43:37.329 --> 00:43:40.630 to glorify. It's the same imagery used of the representation 712 00:43:40.710 --> 00:43:43.289 of the Roman banners being lifted up and exalted, the 713 00:43:43.329 --> 00:43:45.869 same Greek word. And that means that it's at a 714 00:43:45.889 --> 00:43:49.789 higher position, you're at a lower position. Very similar to 715 00:43:49.809 --> 00:43:53.090 the idea of prostration. Now, Speaking of prostration, he did 716 00:43:53.110 --> 00:43:55.610 the very thing that I knew he would do, which 717 00:43:55.670 --> 00:44:00.610 is that he confused the possibility of bowing before created 718 00:44:00.690 --> 00:44:03.690 things when he knows good and well that the ark 719 00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:06.190 is made of wood and that they bowed before it, 720 00:44:06.309 --> 00:44:09.199 as I've showed in several passages. There's at least five 721 00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:12.699 psalms that reference bowing at and worshiping the footstool. It 722 00:44:12.739 --> 00:44:17.519 literally says, proskynesis, worship the footstool in the Septuagint. Now, 723 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:20.500 that's the same terminology in both the Hebrew and in 724 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:23.139 the Greek that's used in the Ten Commandments about what 725 00:44:23.179 --> 00:44:25.340 you're not supposed to do, not supposed to bow, not 726 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:28.079 supposed to worship, etc. But yet at the same time, 727 00:44:28.099 --> 00:44:30.719 we're told that you can do that. So clearly, what 728 00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:35.320 delineates this is not, is the image 3D or pictorial 729 00:44:35.409 --> 00:44:37.849 or out there in the external world? What distinguishes it 730 00:44:37.929 --> 00:44:40.780 is the inner disposition of... Is this a created or 731 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:44.579 an uncreated thing? Jesus says in Revelation 3 that he 732 00:44:44.619 --> 00:44:48.289 will make those who diss his church come and bow 733 00:44:48.349 --> 00:44:52.170 down before those church people. That's also a quote from 734 00:44:52.250 --> 00:44:55.920 Isaiah 60, verse 14, where God says his people's enemies 735 00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:57.900 will have to prostrate and bow before them. 736 00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.489 Now, creatures... are creatures. 737 00:45:00.710 --> 00:45:04.159 Whether it's a wooden thing or whether it's a body, 738 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.619 these are created objects. I am created just as, I 739 00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:10.760 matter just as much as the book is matter. 740 00:45:11.219 --> 00:45:14.409 And yet David has no problem thinking that books are holy. 741 00:45:14.929 --> 00:45:17.449 So all of the arguments that he made could easily 742 00:45:17.489 --> 00:45:21.809 be applied to image slave to the book. And Protestants, 743 00:45:21.889 --> 00:45:25.409 just like his opponents amongst the Muslims, are image slaves 744 00:45:25.469 --> 00:45:28.949 to books. But we're consistent because we don't restrict this 745 00:45:29.050 --> 00:45:35.699 principle of incarnational theology to only the transcendent or only 746 00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:37.900 the unknowable or unseeable. 747 00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:40.039 For us, that's the divine nature. 748 00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:43.760 Paul says in Acts 17, the divine essence, the fusia, 749 00:45:43.820 --> 00:45:48.519 the usis, cannot be imaged. But God's operations come down 750 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:50.780 to us, as St. Basil says, and we do have 751 00:45:50.889 --> 00:45:54.610 a direct knowledge of those things. Thus, when Christ became incarnate, 752 00:45:55.059 --> 00:45:58.119 The very arguments he used would argue against the Incarnation. 753 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.010 Jesus' human nature is created. 754 00:46:01.750 --> 00:46:05.170 It's the word icon that's used of the image of 755 00:46:05.230 --> 00:46:08.909 Christ incarnate in human nature that is the icon that 756 00:46:08.949 --> 00:46:11.989 directs you to the hypostasis of the Son. So the 757 00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.380 hypostasis of the Son assumes a human nature. It's not 758 00:46:15.420 --> 00:46:17.460 the divine essence. And this is the argument of the 759 00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:18.320 Seventh Council in St. 760 00:46:18.340 --> 00:46:19.000 Theodore of the Sudites. 761 00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:22.829 It's the hypostasis

of the Son, not the Father, that 762 00:46:22.869 --> 00:46:26.809 becomes incarnate and becomes imaged through the medium of the 763 00:46:26.889 --> 00:46:30.309 created human nature that he created for himself in the 764 00:46:30.329 --> 00:46:33.809 womb of Mary. So Jesus is the icon of the Father. 765 00:46:33.969 --> 00:46:36.980 Colossians 1.15, Hebrews 1.3, he is the image of the Father. 766 00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:39.780 So no, the idea that there are created images of 767 00:46:39.820 --> 00:46:43.599 God is both textual, the text itself with the name 768 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.500 of God, and Jesus as the incarnation of the text, 769 00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:49.780 he's the living Torah in bodily form walking around. 770 00:46:50.050 --> 00:46:52.590 Requires the worship of the whole Christ. 771 00:46:53.389 --> 00:46:55.130 If he wants to be a Nestorian, he can do 772 00:46:55.170 --> 00:46:57.389 that and say that he only worships the divine nature. 773 00:46:57.849 --> 00:47:00.090 But according to the Council of Ephesus, you have to 774 00:47:00.130 --> 00:47:02.590 worship the whole Christ in both natures. 775 00:47:03.909 --> 00:47:07.420 That means that Christological. 776 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:13.480 Orthodoxy requires worshiping Christ in both natures. That includes reverencing 777 00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:17.460 his human nature. When Thomas is doubtful, he says, my 778 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:20.190 Lord and my God, and he touches the side. Jesus 779 00:47:20.230 --> 00:47:23.429 didn't say, ah, don't touch my side, only worship the 780 00:47:23.469 --> 00:47:27.449 divinity in me. Likewise, with his bogus examples of Cornelius, 781 00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:31.599 he's just setting up contradictions in scripture because Cornelius's problem 782 00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:34.699 is that he doesn't understand the hierarchy that's present. That's 783 00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:37.920 why there's examples of people bowing down that are not rebuked. 784 00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:40.059 But if you have the wrong idea about why you're 785 00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:42.639 bowing down, you would be rebuked. If you're worshiping an 786 00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.059 angel as if it is an uncreated thing, you would 787 00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.909 be rebuked and that happens. But if you're venerating, as 788 00:47:48.150 --> 00:47:50.750 all of the ancient world did, in a proper sense, 789 00:47:50.969 --> 00:47:56.099 without committing the sin interiorly of idolatry, it's absolutely appropriate. 790 00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:01.079 Honor the brethren. Honor your mother and your father. Honor, 791 00:48:01.219 --> 00:48:05.199 venerate them, right? You kiss a portrait of your loved ones. 792 00:48:05.260 --> 00:48:07.190 Many people do this. The ancient world does this. Kiss 793 00:48:07.250 --> 00:48:07.809 the brethren. 794 00:48:08.110 --> 00:48:12.889 Kissing is a created fundamental human object relationship where we 795 00:48:13.429 --> 00:48:17.150 revere the other person, kiss the brethren. Now, if it's 796 00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:19.590 wrong to do this, remember he said that you shouldn't 797 00:48:19.650 --> 00:48:22.289 bow before a human, you can't kiss the idols, etc. 798 00:48:22.630 --> 00:48:24.650 Well, can a human being be an idol? Is a 799 00:48:24.690 --> 00:48:27.829 human being created? Yes. What about the Ark of the Covenant? 800 00:48:27.909 --> 00:48:28.449 It's wood. 801 00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:29.989 He said not to bow down before wood. 802 00:48:30.030 --> 00:48:33.150 So there's a moving of the goalposts, double standard of 803 00:48:33.190 --> 00:48:35.469 the application of Exodus 20. 804 00:48:35.469 --> 00:48:37.550 It's the same past. It's the same term that's used 805 00:48:37.590 --> 00:48:38.829 for worship at the footstool. 806 00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:42.460 Joshua and all the elders prostrate before the ark all 807 00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:45.659 night long. We don't read anything about the glory cloud 808 00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:49.519 being present in Joshua 7. So where's the rebuke of 809 00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:53.099 Joshua doing that? Where's the idolatrous rebuke? There isn't one 810 00:48:53.139 --> 00:48:56.320 because it's inconsistent. As I said in my opening statement, 811 00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.340 we see that the pattern of heaven is put onto earth. 812 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.019 The pattern of heavenly worship in Hebrews 9, 10, and 813 00:49:04.019 --> 00:49:07.699 11 is spoken of as the tupos, the image of 814 00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:12.050 It's the image of the heavenly things on earth. Even 815 00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:15.690 Origen in his day says that Christians had imagery on 816 00:49:15.829 --> 00:49:19.849 their altars. Christians had relics in the altars. This is 817 00:49:19.889 --> 00:49:22.929 like 150, 180, where he's describing this practice in his 818 00:49:22.969 --> 00:49:26.380 homily on Joshua. And he says that shows that this 819 00:49:26.449 --> 00:49:29.199 is not an elate development. Even the people who become 820 00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:32.420 the basis for the iconoclasts, it's Origenism and Neoplatonism that's 821 00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:36.420 the basis for iconoclasm at the seventh council. Even Origen, 822 00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:42.150 their great hallowed heretic saint, he is the one who 823 00:49:42.250 --> 00:49:44.809 argues for the presence. 824 00:49:44.789 --> 00:49:47.469 And wide-scale existence of Christian altars. 825 00:49:47.469 --> 00:49:48.389 20 seconds. 826 00:49:48.590 --> 00:49:50.730 In Hebrews 13, we read that we have an altar 827 00:49:50.789 --> 00:49:53.090 that those who serve the tabernacle on earth have no 828 00:49:53.130 --> 00:49:56.590 right to eat from. And that passage is exegeted even 829 00:49:56.610 --> 00:49:59.949 by Origen and others as a passage about the Christian 830 00:50:00.050 --> 00:50:03.269 Eucharistic altar. So the image of the heavenly things is 831 00:50:03.349 -->

00:50:06.719 now on earth and thus Christians honored the tombs of 832 00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:09.449 the martyrs. They honored the bodies of the martyrs. They 833 00:50:09.489 --> 00:50:12.909 honored the portraiture and even the portraiture of the emperor. 834 00:50:13.030 --> 00:50:14.269 And time. 835 00:50:14.590 --> 00:50:17.610 Thank you very much for that rebuttal. We will switch 836 00:50:17.630 --> 00:50:19.889 it over to David for his rebuttal as well. I've 837 00:50:19.909 --> 00:50:22.460 got the timer set for you. The floor is all yours, David, 838 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:23.079 for nine minutes. 839 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:29.849 All right. Jay continues to insist that his veneration is 840 00:50:30.170 --> 00:50:38.320 biblical and not late, apostolic. It's not late, he says. 841 00:50:39.300 --> 00:50:42.019 And he points to things like the catacombs and other images. Yeah, 842 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:43.860 we know there were images back then. We're talking about 843 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:49.570 the practice of venerating them. And he says, I rely 844 00:50:49.690 --> 00:50:52.510 on one or two scholars. This is pretty much every 845 00:50:52.550 --> 00:50:59.110 historian you can find on the issue of veneration. Leo Davis, 846 00:50:59.429 --> 00:51:01.530 in his book on the Seventh Ecumenical Council, says, In 847 00:51:01.550 --> 00:51:04.389 the early church, Christians had ringing in their ears the 848 00:51:04.429 --> 00:51:08.030 denunciations of graven images in the Old Testament and rearing 849 00:51:08.090 --> 00:51:11.389 up before their eyes the idols of the pagan Greco-Roman world. 850 00:51:12.190 --> 00:51:15.050 Only by about 200 did Christian art make its appearance, 851 00:51:15.130 --> 00:51:18.860 and by the fourth century were churches filled with cycles 852 00:51:18.980 --> 00:51:21.760 of Christian painting. Only by the second half of the 853 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.599 fourth century did Christian authors begin to speak in positive 854 00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.570 terms about pictorial art. But alongside this development ran a 855 00:51:28.690 --> 00:51:31.590 current of strong opposition. Now, he's a Roman Catholic historian. 856 00:51:32.929 --> 00:51:36.260 Let's go to John Anthony McGuckin, Eastern Orthodox priest and 857 00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:40.079 a church historian. He writes, Christianity in the earliest period 858 00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:44.760 seems to have shared the aversion common in Judaism, though 859 00:51:44.820 --> 00:51:48.400 not an absolute aversion as is demonstrated by the highly 860 00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:52.420 decorated second century synagogue at Dura-Europas. This is what Jay 861 00:51:52.820 --> 00:51:57.679 brings up. They acknowledge that there are exceptions to painted 862 00:51:57.739 --> 00:52:02.570 representations in religious contexts. The Hellenistic world was so thoroughly 863 00:52:02.630 --> 00:52:04.869 immersed in art as a religious medium that both the 864 00:52:04.929 --> 00:52:07.489 synagogue and the church turned from it as part of 865 00:52:07.530 --> 00:52:12.980 their apologia against false cult. And Christian thinkers argued instead 866 00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:18.119 for the intellectual, spiritual, and moral mimesis or imitation of 867 00:52:18.210 --> 00:52:21.269 God as the only valid depictions of the divine on earth. 868 00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:26.050 Origin of Alexandria in the third century remains immensely hostile 869 00:52:26.090 --> 00:52:28.630 to the idea of figurative art, and writers such as 870 00:52:28.730 --> 00:52:33.000 Eusebius of Caesarea, himself an ardent originist, or Epiphanius of 871 00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:36.039 Salamis in the fourth century were also explicitly hostile to 872 00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:38.559 depicting Christ in any way at all in the church's 873 00:52:38.980 --> 00:52:42.860 cultic life. He goes on to point out that in 874 00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:47.719 spite of the general aversion towards portraying Christ in images, 875 00:52:47.780 --> 00:52:50.340 some Christians in some places did make images, but these 876 00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:52.929 were the exceptions. The early church in general was not 877 00:52:52.969 --> 00:52:58.690 a fan of images. He specifically mentions Origen, Eusebius, and Epiphanius. 878 00:52:58.710 --> 00:53:01.670 Let's see what they said. Origen, writing in the 3rd century... 879 00:53:01.969 --> 00:53:04.260 Who then, we might say, are the ones among us 880 00:53:04.300 --> 00:53:06.980 who do not see? Is it not those who, from 881 00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:09.219 the greatness of the things in the world and the 882 00:53:09.260 --> 00:53:12.019 beauty of created works, are unable to lift up their 883 00:53:12.260 --> 00:53:15.480 eyes and perceive that one ought to worship, admire, and 884 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:18.820 revere only the one who made these things, and that 885 00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:21.789 none of the things constructed by humans and adopted for 886 00:53:21.809 --> 00:53:26.690 the honor of gods should properly be revered, whether apart 887 00:53:26.710 --> 00:53:30.309 from the creator God or even along with him? Eusebius, 888 00:53:30.369 --> 00:53:33.730 father of church history, wrote a letter to Constantia, the 889 00:53:33.829 --> 00:53:38.199 sister of Constantine the Great. Constantia was a former pagan. 890 00:53:38.260 --> 00:53:41.619 She converted to Christianity. And after she converted to Christianity, 891 00:53:41.659 --> 00:53:45.880 she wanted an image of Christ. But she couldn't find one. Strange, 892 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:50.579 since they were everywhere, according to some people. So she 893 00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:53.199 asked Eusebius, can you find me an image of Christ? 894 00:53:53.300 --> 00:53:57.230 Eusebius wrote back, You also wrote me concerning some supposed 895 00:53:57.329 --> 00:53:59.929 image of Christ, which image you wished me to send you. 896 00:53:59.949 --> 00:54:02.570

Now what kind of thing is this that you call 897 00:54:02.590 --> 00:54:05.070 the image of Christ? I do not know what impelled 898 00:54:05.130 --> 00:54:07.650 you to request that an image of our Savior should 899 00:54:07.670 --> 00:54:10.889 be delineated. What sort of image of Christ are you seeking? 900 00:54:11.010 --> 00:54:13.849 Is it the true and unalterable one which bears his 901 00:54:13.889 --> 00:54:17.000 essential characteristics, or the one which he took up for 902 00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.059 our sake when he assumed the form of a servant? 903 00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:23.489 He then points out the impossibility of painting Christ in 904 00:54:23.530 --> 00:54:27.070 his glorified state accurately, and says, how can one paint 905 00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:31.429 an image of so wondrous and unattainable a form if 906 00:54:31.489 --> 00:54:34.590 the term form is at all applicable to the divine 907 00:54:34.630 --> 00:54:38.840 and spiritual essence? Unless, like the unbelieving pagans, one is 908 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:42.320 to represent things that bear no possible resemblance to anything. 909 00:54:42.809 --> 00:54:45.170 For they too make such idols when they wish to 910 00:54:45.269 --> 00:54:48.400 mold the likeness of what they consider to be a god, or, 911 00:54:48.739 --> 00:54:50.860 as they might say, one of the heroes or anything 912 00:54:50.900 --> 00:54:53.760 else of the kind, yet are unable even to approach 913 00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:58.420 a resemblance and so delineate and represent some strange human shapes. Surely, 914 00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:01.489 even you will agree, such practices are not lawful for us. 915 00:55:02.829 --> 00:55:05.130 But if you mean to ask of me the image, 916 00:55:05.409 --> 00:55:08.599 not of his form transformed into that of God... but 917 00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:12.360 that of the mortal flesh before its transformation, so just 918 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:14.760 as physical nature. Can it be that you have forgotten 919 00:55:14.780 --> 00:55:17.400 that passage in which God lays down the law that 920 00:55:17.539 --> 00:55:20.329 no likeness should be made either of what is in 921 00:55:20.429 --> 00:55:23.070 heaven or what is in the earth beneath? Have you 922 00:55:23.110 --> 00:55:26.409 ever heard anything of the kind, either yourself in church 923 00:55:26.969 --> 00:55:30.050 or from another person? Are not such things banished and 924 00:55:30.090 --> 00:55:33.280 excluded from churches all over the world? And is it 925 00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:37.360 not common knowledge that such practices are not permitted anywhere? 926 00:55:37.820 --> 00:55:42.730 To us alone? This is Eusebius, the father of church history, saying, 927 00:55:42.909 --> 00:55:44.889 do you not know that we don't do that here? 928 00:55:44.909 --> 00:55:48.719 They can disagree with Eusebius on all kinds of things. 929 00:55:48.739 --> 00:55:50.300 I would at least expect them to know what's going 930 00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:54.909 on in churches. Then, of course, there's Epiphanius, the famous 931 00:55:54.949 --> 00:55:57.969 passage where he says he went to visit a place, 932 00:55:57.989 --> 00:56:00.369 went into a church, and saw an image of Christ 933 00:56:00.409 --> 00:56:02.309 or of a saint there, and he says he tore 934 00:56:02.349 --> 00:56:05.599 it down. And then later people complain, and he sends 935 00:56:05.619 --> 00:56:10.739 them back a very nice curtain to replace it. As 936 00:56:10.780 --> 00:56:14.760 far as Jay's responses, he points out that people can 937 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.179 be honored and revered, even in the Bible. I acknowledge 938 00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:22.420 that in my opening statement. He says that words are iconographic. 939 00:56:24.739 --> 00:56:26.599 Everyone knows what we're talking about here, guys. We're talking 940 00:56:26.619 --> 00:56:29.079 about wooden images that we make with our hands. If 941 00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:31.239 we're going to say words are iconographic, then I don't 942 00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:36.179 know where we're going here. He talks about theophanies. Yes, yes. 943 00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:41.679 Appearances of God, the living God. He says Adam was 944 00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:45.750 created in the image of God. Yes, I talked about 945 00:56:45.769 --> 00:56:49.650 that in my opening statement too. Jesus is the image 946 00:56:49.690 --> 00:56:52.710 of God. Of course he is the living image of God. 947 00:56:52.829 --> 00:56:56.190 Are we seriously saying that if you don't bow to 948 00:56:56.570 --> 00:57:00.110 a block of wood with some paint on it, then 949 00:57:00.260 --> 00:57:06.599 you're denying what? Jesus, the living and eternal image of God? 950 00:57:07.860 --> 00:57:12.920 He says people in the Old Testament bowed facing the temple. Right. 951 00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:16.559 Why would they do that? Exodus 25. Then have them 952 00:57:16.599 --> 00:57:19.619 make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 953 00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.699 God is going to dwell with them in the sanctuary. 954 00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:25.960 What are they bowing to? The pomegranates on the... No, 955 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.500 they're bowing to God in the temple. Jay says, well, 956 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:36.400 Joshua bowed to the ark. Exodus 25, 22. God says, 957 00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:39.559 there above the cover between the two cherubim that are 958 00:57:39.699 --> 00:57:42.650 over the ark of the covenant law... I will meet 959 00:57:42.710 --> 00:57:45.989 with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites. 960 00:57:47.489 --> 00:57:50.409 When you bow to the ark, what are you bowing to? 961 00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:56.210 God says he's there. But let's go and read what 962 00:57:56.250 --> 00:57:58.989 Joshua actually says here. Joshua 7, 6. Then Joshua tore 963 00:57:59.030 --> 00:58:01.579 his clothes, because God was mad at them, and fell 964 00:58:01.619

--> 00:58:03.639 face down on the ground before the ark of the Lord. 965 00:58:04.139 --> 00:58:06.820 So he falls before the ark of the Lord, remaining 966 00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:08.920 there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same 967 00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:12.739 and sprinkled dust on their heads. See, he's venerating images. Really? 968 00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:16.460 Is that what he's doing? Next verse, and Joshua said, alas, 969 00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:19.239 sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across 970 00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:20.960 the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the 971 00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:23.309 Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content 972 00:58:23.349 --> 00:58:25.670 to stay on the other side of the Jordan. And 973 00:58:25.690 --> 00:58:28.070 what happens a few verses later, then the Lord said 974 00:58:28.130 --> 00:58:29.849 to Joshua, stand up. What are you doing down on 975 00:58:29.869 --> 00:58:34.519 your face? Israel has sinned. So who's he at the 976 00:58:34.599 --> 00:58:36.719 ark for? To talk to God who said he would 977 00:58:36.739 --> 00:58:39.349 meet him there. I mean, following this reasoning, I mean, 978 00:58:39.809 --> 00:58:41.789 we're standing at a podium. Just imagine a scenario where 979 00:58:41.829 --> 00:58:44.510 God gives us some revelation right now and says, tonight 980 00:58:44.530 --> 00:58:46.510 at midnight, I'm going to be at that podium. You 981 00:58:46.530 --> 00:58:49.900 won't see me, but I'm going to be at that podium. Well, 982 00:58:49.940 --> 00:58:51.480 come midnight, I'm going to be bowed down in front 983 00:58:51.500 --> 00:58:54.679 of that podium. And I hope Jay and the rest 984 00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:56.260 would all be bowed down in front of that podium. 985 00:58:56.300 --> 00:58:58.099 But if you asked us later what was going on there, 986 00:58:58.179 --> 00:59:00.590 we're going to describe that very differently. Say, David, what 987 00:59:00.610 --> 00:59:02.789 were you doing? I was bowing down to God who 988 00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:03.929 told me he was going to be at the podium. 989 00:59:04.780 --> 00:59:06.760 If you ask Jay, what were you doing? He would say, 990 00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:10.420 I'm venerating the podium. And they start making little images 991 00:59:10.500 --> 00:59:13.139 and having them in their prayer corners of little podiums everywhere. 992 00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:16.519 And it's like, what are you focused on? It seems 993 00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:19.460 you're kind of missing things here. 20 seconds. What's that? 994 00:59:19.460 --> 00:59:22.329 20 seconds. Okay. 995 00:59:23.690 --> 00:59:24.050 Let's see. 996 00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:28.059 The bronze serpent, he brings up the bronze serpent. God 997 00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:29.699 didn't say venerate it. He said if you get bit 998 00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:31.159 by a snake, look at it so you know where 999 00:59:31.179 --> 00:59:34.019 your healing comes from. What happened when they eventually started 1000 00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.880 venerating it? They burned incense to it in 2 Kings. 1001 00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.969 What happened? Hezekiah said, now you're venerating it, and he 1002 00:59:40.030 --> 00:59:45.550 smashed it to pieces. Interesting. Thank you very much for 1003 00:59:45.590 --> 00:59:47.190 that rebuttal, Dr. David Wood. 1004 00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:56.119 We'll switch into the open dialogue, gentlemen. So the floor 1005 00:59:56.179 --> 00:59:59.440 is yours. I'm shortening this more appreciably. So this is 1006 00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.320 a 15-minute open dialogue. 1007 01:00:02.050 --> 01:00:02.949 The floor is all yours. 1008 01:00:05.230 --> 01:00:08.610 Oh, and then the mics, two to three inches from 1009 01:00:08.630 --> 01:00:09.289 your face. 1010 01:00:09.929 --> 01:00:10.150 Right. 1011 01:00:10.190 --> 01:00:14.329 So it explains in that passage why it was a problem. 1012 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:17.469 If it was a problem to make imagery and to 1013 01:00:17.719 --> 01:00:20.269 look with cultic gaze, as scholars say, about what they 1014 01:00:20.289 --> 01:00:23.429 did in Numbers to be healed, then making the image 1015 01:00:23.469 --> 01:00:26.989 itself would violate the principle that you have for Exodus 1016 01:00:26.989 --> 01:00:29.409 20 in your interpretation. Yet they were told to look 1017 01:00:29.449 --> 01:00:31.920 at the image in faith. It says that they destroyed 1018 01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:35.300 the bronze serpent because they worshiped Nahushtan. You left that 1019 01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:38.460 part out because that's the serpent deity. That proves my 1020 01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:41.380 point that if I had an image of the Theotokos here, 1021 01:00:41.539 --> 01:00:43.750 or Mary, and I had over here an image of 1022 01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:47.760 say Pachamama, wouldn't we be able to tell the difference 1023 01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:51.670 between what's referenced? Whether you think icons are idols or whatever, 1024 01:00:51.789 --> 01:00:53.610 we would clearly be able to tell the difference between 1025 01:00:53.690 --> 01:01:00.130 Pachamama and the Virgin Mary, right? If it's an image 1026 01:01:00.170 --> 01:01:01.670 of Mary, we'll say for the sake of argument, right? 1027 01:01:02.389 --> 01:01:06.039 That proves that not all images are idols. But David, 1028 01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:10.719 you said that Bibles don't count in this Because we're 1029 01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:12.820 talking about things that are made with hands. 1030 01:01:12.900 --> 01:01:15.090 Do you not think Bibles are made with hands, David? 1031 01:01:17.829 --> 01:01:20.530 It would be seriously weird to me to even do 1032 01:01:20.570 --> 01:01:25.469 to a Bible what you guys are doing with the icons. 1033 01:01:25.510 --> 01:01:28.690 If you set one up and were burning incense to 1034 01:01:28.789 --> 01:01:30.500 it and lighting candles in front of it and so on,

1035 01:01:30.550 --> 01:01:33.860 even that would be weird. But we're talking about icon veneration. 1036 01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:36.940 Let me just read about this bronze serpent, Numbers 21. 1037 01:01:36.940 --> 01:01:39.019 The Lord said to Moses... Make a snake and put 1038 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:41.119 it up on a pole. So this is after they 1039 01:01:41.139 --> 01:01:44.059 start getting bitten by snakes. Anyone who is bitten can 1040 01:01:44.079 --> 01:01:47.460 look at it and live. So Moses made a bronze 1041 01:01:47.500 --> 01:01:49.559 serpent and put it up on a pole. Then when 1042 01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:51.119 anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the 1043 01:01:51.139 --> 01:01:52.780 bronze snake, they live. All you're supposed to do with 1044 01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:54.389 this thing is look at it if you get bit 1045 01:01:54.429 --> 01:01:56.969 by a snake, and that's the end. 2 Kings 18, 4. Hezekiah... 1046 01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:02.000 removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones, and cut 1047 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:05.039 down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze 1048 01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:08.679 snake Moses had made for up to that time the 1049 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:11.880 Israelites had been burning incense to it. Yes, they gave 1050 01:02:12.420 --> 01:02:17.750 their bronze snake a name, but the reason for breaking 1051 01:02:17.789 --> 01:02:21.230 it to pieces was that they started burning incense to it. 1052 01:02:21.389 --> 01:02:23.670 Because of what? You're leaving this out. What name? 1053 01:02:24.869 --> 01:02:25.309 Nehushtan. 1054 01:02:25.690 --> 01:02:26.309 And what does that mean? 1055 01:02:27.309 --> 01:02:27.829 Snake or something? 1056 01:02:28.030 --> 01:02:30.599 Thank you. So a snake god. So an idol is 1057 01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:31.210 not an icon. Thank you. 1058 01:02:31.219 --> 01:02:32.119 Wait, so they called it snake? 1059 01:02:32.139 --> 01:02:32.920 Thank you for proving my point. 1060 01:02:32.940 --> 01:02:34.880 Did you say they called it snake, ladies and gentlemen? 1061 01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:36.940 That's why it had to be destroyed. They've been burning 1062 01:02:37.099 --> 01:02:39.719 incense to it, but not gave it a name. It 1063 01:02:39.739 --> 01:02:40.280 would have been fine. 1064 01:02:40.300 --> 01:02:42.860 Worshiping a pagan god, which is why the oak of 1065 01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:46.000 Mamre can be honored in Genesis, and that's not the 1066 01:02:46.039 --> 01:02:49.340 same thing as the Asherah tree gods. They're two different things. 1067 01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:51.980 So the whole argument rests on conflating these two things. 1068 01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:56.480 No, it just says, for up to that time, the 1069 01:02:56.500 --> 01:02:57.760 Israelites have been burning incense to it. 1070 01:02:58.380 --> 01:02:59.800 Because it's Nahushtan. 1071 01:02:59.980 --> 01:03:02.519 No, it says the reason he smashed it. 1072 01:03:02.500 --> 01:03:05.139 Was for up to that time the Israelites had been 1073 01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:05.869 burning incense to it. 1074 01:03:05.900 --> 01:03:07.659 Is that a snake deity? Are they worshiping a snake deity? 1075 01:03:08.949 --> 01:03:11.730 It just says they're burning incense to it. What's the 1076 01:03:11.750 --> 01:03:14.690 name Nahushtan? Burning incense to the image was enough. So 1077 01:03:14.730 --> 01:03:18.050 it doesn't matter who it's referencing. So there's no difference 1078 01:03:18.090 --> 01:03:19.969 between an image of Pachamama and Mary? It just says 1079 01:03:19.989 --> 01:03:20.489 what they called it. 1080 01:03:20.710 --> 01:03:21.230 No, it doesn't. 1081 01:03:21.269 --> 01:03:23.929 It says Nahushtan, and scholars will tell you, read any 1082 01:03:23.969 --> 01:03:26.769 scholar talking about this, they'll say this is because they're 1083 01:03:26.809 --> 01:03:27.909 worshiping a snake deity. 1084 01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:30.550 They're not, by the way, isn't this a type of Christ? 1085 01:03:30.570 --> 01:03:33.130 What do you mean worshiping? It says they burned incense 1086 01:03:33.150 --> 01:03:34.030 to it. That's all it says. 1087 01:03:34.289 --> 01:03:35.989 Yeah, I don't have a problem saying worship because that 1088 01:03:36.010 --> 01:03:40.090 can be used in a general sense for Dulia and Latria. 1089 01:03:42.260 --> 01:03:44.840 Okay, so they're burning incense to it and that counted. 1090 01:03:44.900 --> 01:03:47.960 Because it's to a false god. You're leaving out the 1091 01:03:47.980 --> 01:03:51.190 key point. It doesn't say anything. It just said they 1092 01:03:51.230 --> 01:03:52.610 had a name for it. It says Nahushtan. 1093 01:03:52.690 --> 01:03:54.090 It says Nahushtan, you liar. 1094 01:03:54.820 --> 01:03:56.159 That's not the reason it gives. 1095 01:03:56.219 --> 01:03:57.139 It says because they. 1096 01:03:57.079 --> 01:03:57.659 Were burning incense to it. 1097 01:03:57.659 --> 01:03:57.920 Yes, it does. 1098 01:03:57.940 --> 01:03:59.260 It says they were worshiping Nahushtan. 1099 01:03:59.280 --> 01:03:59.940 All right. 1100 01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:02.119 So you left out the essential point. 1101 01:04:02.139 --> 01:04:05.119 I left out the name because that's not the reason given. 1102 01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:08.480 It says the reason given was they were burning incense 1103 01:04:08.500 --> 01:04:09.559 to it. Kind of like icons. 1104 01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:11.679 Our Bible's made with hands because you seem to apply 1105 01:04:11.699 --> 01:04:12.139 that they weren't. 1106 01:04:12.219 --> 01:04:13.199 And you agree that's worship. 1107 01:04:14.389 --> 01:04:17.289 Because the word worship is generic and can be Latria 1108 01:04:17.389 --> 01:04:19.329 or Dulia. Just like worship. 1109 01:04:19.349 --> 01:04:21.510 So you would say in that sense, you worship an icon. 1110 01:04:21.590 --> 01:04:24.489 I already gave in my opening statement, worship at the 1111 01:04:24.530

--> 01:04:27.659 footstool the Lord and his king. Worship there is used 1112 01:04:27.699 --> 01:04:30.400 for both of them. So obviously the context tells us that. 1113 01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:31.679 Did you say worship the footstool? 1114 01:04:31.900 --> 01:04:34.420 It says worship at the footstool. You know it says 1115 01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:36.300 literally worship the footstool? 1116 01:04:36.460 --> 01:04:39.789 You can translate the Septuagint as that. The Hebrew says 1117 01:04:39.909 --> 01:04:41.489 worship at his footstool. 1118 01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:42.650 Right, and what's the footstool? 1119 01:04:42.750 --> 01:04:47.000 If you want to say it means worship his footstool... 1120 01:04:47.539 --> 01:04:50.340 then just a few verses later, it says you'd have 1121 01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:51.239 to say worship his holy mountain. 1122 01:04:51.260 --> 01:04:55.079 Because there's a difference between venerating and worshiping in a 1123 01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:58.900 Latria-Dulia sense. This is Jerome's whole argument against the heretics 1124 01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:00.099 that you're repeating. 1125 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:00.619 Yeah, but I'm saying. 1126 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:02.389 Yeah, no, I can understand that. I'm saying the verse 1127 01:05:02.409 --> 01:05:04.869 you're quoting is worship at his footstool. There's nothing about 1128 01:05:04.929 --> 01:05:07.110 venerating the footstool or the ark in it. It's worship 1129 01:05:07.329 --> 01:05:09.210 at his footstool. And if you want to say it's 1130 01:05:09.349 --> 01:05:12.110 worship his footstool, then just a few verses later, it 1131 01:05:12.150 --> 01:05:15.090 says you'd have to translate that as worship his holy mountain. 1132 01:05:15.110 --> 01:05:18.849 So it doesn't matter whether you... prostrate in the direction 1133 01:05:18.889 --> 01:05:20.429 of the temple or in any direction? 1134 01:05:21.829 --> 01:05:25.360 You're told... I already read it. He said he's going 1135 01:05:25.389 --> 01:05:27.199 to dwell in the temple. God says he's going to 1136 01:05:27.219 --> 01:05:28.739 dwell in the temple. What are they bound to the 1137 01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:29.070 temple for? 1138 01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:31.940 Does it say in Joshua 7 that the Shekinah or 1139 01:05:31.980 --> 01:05:32.840 Athiophany was present? 1140 01:05:35.500 --> 01:05:36.500 Does it say that? 1141 01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:37.550 Does it? 1142 01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:39.039 I would say absolutely. 1143 01:05:39.260 --> 01:05:40.179 Where does it say that? 1144 01:05:40.619 --> 01:05:41.460 My goodness, let me answer. 1145 01:05:41.539 --> 01:05:42.260 Where does it say that? 1146 01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:49.110 I just read you the passages. God said that's where 1147 01:05:49.119 --> 01:05:52.150 he's going to meet with them. So that's where Joshua faces. 1148 01:05:52.269 --> 01:05:55.010 And then he speaks directly to God in front of that. 1149 01:05:55.269 --> 01:05:56.829 And God speaks back to him. 1150 01:05:56.869 --> 01:05:58.559 Does God sometimes speak in a voice? 1151 01:05:59.739 --> 01:06:00.039 Of course. 1152 01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:00.519 Right. 1153 01:06:00.869 --> 01:06:02.469 So how do you know in this passage whether it's 1154 01:06:02.530 --> 01:06:04.489 a voice or whether it's a theophany? Where does it 1155 01:06:04.530 --> 01:06:05.269 tell you there's a theophany? 1156 01:06:05.530 --> 01:06:10.050 It doesn't, but God says that's where he'll meet with him. 1157 01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:13.960 Joshua obeys, speaks to him there where God said he 1158 01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:16.059 would be. If God said he's going to be over there, 1159 01:06:16.139 --> 01:06:17.320 I'd go over there and talk to God. 1160 01:06:17.340 --> 01:06:20.380 Let me give an example. 1161 01:06:20.940 --> 01:06:25.619 Jesus says, for example, that the Pharisees honor the tombs 1162 01:06:25.739 --> 01:06:28.789 of the martyrs and they decorate and give gifts to 1163 01:06:28.869 --> 01:06:32.079 the altar in the temple. that honoring of the altar 1164 01:06:32.219 --> 01:06:35.780 and giving gifts and sacrifices. 1165 01:06:35.179 --> 01:06:38.900 To the altar was a promoted practice. 1166 01:06:39.059 --> 01:06:41.389 So Jesus is not saying to the Pharisees that it's 1167 01:06:41.489 --> 01:06:43.909 wrong that you honor the tombs of the martyrs or 1168 01:06:43.949 --> 01:06:45.269 that you honored the altar. 1169 01:06:45.489 --> 01:06:46.449 That's a good thing. 1170 01:06:46.909 --> 01:06:50.170 But those passages show us that it's a consistent practice 1171 01:06:50.289 --> 01:06:54.170 to honor the holy objects, whether or not the Shekinah 1172 01:06:54.230 --> 01:06:56.070 is present or not. Do you agree that the Shekinah 1173 01:06:56.090 --> 01:06:56.650 sometimes left? 1174 01:06:57.960 --> 01:06:58.119 Sure. 1175 01:06:58.420 --> 01:07:01.179 Okay, so was it always wrong then when it left 1176 01:07:01.260 --> 01:07:02.469 to honor those holy objects? 1177 01:07:02.829 --> 01:07:04.369 Well, I mean, if you don't know, God says that's 1178 01:07:04.409 --> 01:07:07.309 where he is. I don't know what else to do. 1179 01:07:07.389 --> 01:07:08.969 If God says this is where he's going to be, 1180 01:07:08.989 --> 01:07:09.269 pray to this. 1181 01:07:09.289 --> 01:07:11.590 Isn't God everywhere, David? Isn't he everywhere? 1182 01:07:11.929 --> 01:07:12.150 Yeah. 1183 01:07:12.550 --> 01:07:16.360 Okay, so is Mount Zion holy? Is Mount Zion holy? 1184 01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:18.599 Was he not present in some special sense if he 1185 01:07:18.619 --> 01:07:20.599 says he was? Of course, but in this passage it 1186 01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:24.940 doesn't say that. You just assumed that. He bows down 1187 01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:27.800 and speaks to God. You don't know that it's a 1188 01:07:27.880 --> 01:07:31.380 visible theophany. It doesn't say that. It doesn't have to 1189 01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:33.980 be visible theophany. To rescue

your position, it needs to be. 1190 01:07:33.989 --> 01:07:36.730 I already gave the example. If God said, hey, you're 1191 01:07:36.750 --> 01:07:38.210 not going to see me, but I'm at the podium, 1192 01:07:38.309 --> 01:07:39.510 I'd be bowed down in front of the podium. 1193 01:07:39.530 --> 01:07:42.050 It wouldn't mean I'm venerating the podium. 1194 01:07:42.070 --> 01:07:43.550 The podium would just be the location where God told 1195 01:07:43.570 --> 01:07:43.860 me he was. 1196 01:07:43.869 --> 01:07:45.909 Was it okay to honor the holy objects or the 1197 01:07:46.010 --> 01:07:48.400 ark or whatever, the altar, as Jesus talks about, when 1198 01:07:48.420 --> 01:07:50.639 the Shekinah was not present or the glory. 1199 01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:51.079 Of God was not present? 1200 01:07:52.030 --> 01:07:54.619 Is it okay? How would you know? What do you mean? 1201 01:07:55.860 --> 01:07:56.599 Well, in the book of Acts? 1202 01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:59.760 If God says, hey, I'm present at the podium, you 1203 01:07:59.780 --> 01:08:01.070 could visibly see it leave. 1204 01:08:02.710 --> 01:08:03.510 That's how you would know. 1205 01:08:03.710 --> 01:08:03.860 Do you. 1206 01:08:07.340 --> 01:08:08.929 Is it okay to honor the temple? 1207 01:08:08.949 --> 01:08:11.010 Can you honor the temple? I don't know what you're saying. 1208 01:08:11.050 --> 01:08:12.670 If God says that's my temple where I'm going to 1209 01:08:12.690 --> 01:08:16.989 dwell with you, that's the ark where. 1210 01:08:16.770 --> 01:08:18.750 I'm going to speak to you. 1211 01:08:18.850 --> 01:08:20.789 So face that. I don't know. 1212 01:08:21.250 --> 01:08:24.029 Is it okay to honor the holy objects? 1213 01:08:24.449 --> 01:08:29.430 I acknowledged in my opening statement that God gives these rules. 1214 01:08:29.869 --> 01:08:32.029 That doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want 1215 01:08:32.409 --> 01:08:33.090 with all these claims. 1216 01:08:33.109 --> 01:08:34.289 Who argued that you can do whatever you want? Nobody 1217 01:08:34.310 --> 01:08:36.670 argued that. That's a strong man. You mentioned. 1218 01:08:36.729 --> 01:08:40.659 Are Bibles made with hands or not? I can't... You're 1219 01:08:40.680 --> 01:08:42.300 just not going to answer my question. Can I get 1220 01:08:42.340 --> 01:08:44.619 a sentence out? You gave the impression that Bibles are 1221 01:08:44.659 --> 01:08:46.359 different because they're not made with hands. 1222 01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:48.920 Okay, this is an icon. You distinguish between types of worship. 1223 01:08:48.939 --> 01:08:51.000 You said you're fine using the word worship in one way. 1224 01:08:51.020 --> 01:08:54.550 Would you say you worship the icons? We venerate icons. Okay, 1225 01:08:54.590 --> 01:08:55.409 you venerate, not worship. 1226 01:08:55.430 --> 01:08:57.390 The word worship can be Latria or Dulia. 1227 01:08:58.149 --> 01:08:59.829 Okay, so you're saying in one sense you could say 1228 01:08:59.850

--> 01:09:01.479 you're but not in the sense. 1229 01:09:01.380 --> 01:09:03.560 It's only due to God. Yeah, it's called a generic term. Correct. Okay. 1230 01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:05.699 I was just wondering about that, and I really have 1231 01:09:05.840 --> 01:09:07.340 no idea, so I was just wondering, and I figured 1232 01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:12.329 I'd ask you since we're here. Is worship the honor 1233 01:09:12.409 --> 01:09:13.609 that's due to Christ? 1234 01:09:15.250 --> 01:09:17.029 If you mean like Dulia, yeah. 1235 01:09:21.310 --> 01:09:25.149 So you don't worship Jesus the. 1236 01:09:24.989 --> 01:09:27.590 Way you worship God. 1237 01:09:27.609 --> 01:09:31.090 So we honor those who deserve honor. 1238 01:09:31.250 --> 01:09:32.560 I'm talking about Christ specifically. 1239 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:32.850 I know. 1240 01:09:32.899 --> 01:09:35.340 I'm saying that if you look, for example, at the 1241 01:09:35.380 --> 01:09:38.479 first and second century, when you have many references to 1242 01:09:38.699 --> 01:09:43.640 the images of the emperors, Christian saints say that worthy men... 1243 01:09:44.489 --> 01:09:49.689 can be reverenced in their images. That's not idolatry. But 1244 01:09:49.810 --> 01:09:52.539 if you bow down and worship them thinking that they 1245 01:09:52.579 --> 01:09:55.199 are an embodied God, and this is the universal scholarship 1246 01:09:55.239 --> 01:09:58.199 on what counts as idolatry in the minds of those people, 1247 01:09:58.300 --> 01:10:01.279 it was the idea that this object is a body 1248 01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:03.159 of a God or embodies that deity. 1249 01:10:03.199 --> 01:10:03.640 And then I can. 1250 01:10:04.979 --> 01:10:07.000 trick that deity or get that deity to do something 1251 01:10:07.020 --> 01:10:11.060 for me by giving sacrifices. 1252 01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:15.880 I'm asking something much simpler than that. I'm saying, is 1253 01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:19.960 the honor due to Christ the worship that's due to 1254 01:10:19.979 --> 01:10:25.750 God alone? Yes. Okay, so if the honor that you 1255 01:10:25.829 --> 01:10:33.359 give to the icon passes on to the archetype, then 1256 01:10:33.390 --> 01:10:37.649 I would understand the distinction between saying, oh, we don't give, 1257 01:10:38.130 --> 01:10:42.369 let's say, an icon of Peter or Paul, the worship 1258 01:10:42.409 --> 01:10:45.029 or adoration that's due to God alone, but I don't 1259 01:10:45.069 --> 01:10:47.770 know why you wouldn't say that about an image of Christ. 1260 01:10:47.850 --> 01:10:52.630 If the honor passes from the icon to the archetype 1261 01:10:52.710 --> 01:10:57.270 and the honor due to Christ is worship in the 1262 01:10:57.390 --> 01:11:01.590 full sense, then why wouldn't you say that you worship 1263 01:11:01.670 --> 01:11:04.069 in the full sense the icon of Christ? And if 1264 01:11:04.109 --> 01:11:08.149 you don't do that, why wouldn't you be denying Christ, 1265 01:11:08.189 --> 01:11:09.329 the honor that is due him. Right. 1266 01:11:09.649 --> 01:11:12.430 Because there's a unique case with Christ because he is 1267 01:11:12.470 --> 01:11:15.600 the second hypostasis of the Godhead. Peter and Paul are 1268 01:11:15.659 --> 01:11:19.239 not hypostases of the Godhead. They are the friends of God. 1269 01:11:19.720 --> 01:11:21.439 And we honor those who are the friends of God 1270 01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:23.279 the same way that we would honor anyone else like 1271 01:11:23.340 --> 01:11:24.060 our parents, etc. 1272 01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:25.819 Yeah, yeah. 1273 01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:28.510 I'm saying if you... So you're saying you don't honor 1274 01:11:28.750 --> 01:11:30.550 Jesus with the worship that's due just to God? 1275 01:11:30.890 --> 01:11:33.220 What in anything I said sounded anything like that? 1276 01:11:33.300 --> 01:11:36.079 I said Christ is the Son of God in flesh, 1277 01:11:36.359 --> 01:11:40.199 and so he is given a worship above, far beyond 1278 01:11:40.300 --> 01:11:42.600 what's given to the saints as the friends of God. 1279 01:11:42.819 --> 01:11:45.020 Yeah, no, that's what I mean. That's why I'm not understanding. 1280 01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:47.890 If you're saying that's the honor that's due to Christ... 1281 01:11:48.539 --> 01:11:53.180 And you say, oh, but we don't do that to 1282 01:11:53.199 --> 01:11:54.899 the icon, even though the honor given to the icon 1283 01:11:54.939 --> 01:11:57.920 passes on to the archetype. Why wouldn't you make a 1284 01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:01.220 distinction between icons and say, yeah, we don't give this 1285 01:12:01.300 --> 01:12:04.149 the honor that's due only to God, but to an 1286 01:12:04.350 --> 01:12:07.229 icon of Christ, we do give that the honor that's 1287 01:12:07.250 --> 01:12:11.250 due to God alone, and we worship in the fullest sense... 1288 01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:14.539 The icon, because that passes on to Christ. So why 1289 01:12:14.560 --> 01:12:15.819 don't you say worship the image of Christ? 1290 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:19.760 Because the icon is pointing us to the incarnate Christ, right? 1291 01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:22.939 Just like the icons are pointing us to human beings 1292 01:12:23.180 --> 01:12:26.939 like Peter and Paul. Christ is a unique case because 1293 01:12:26.979 --> 01:12:30.819 we're worshiping the whole Christ, including his human nature. And 1294 01:12:30.859 --> 01:12:31.579 that's why your. 1295 01:12:31.460 --> 01:12:34.659 Position would require not worshiping the human nature of Christ. 1296 01:12:36.279 --> 01:12:38.579 I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm saying if you're worshiping 1297 01:12:38.619 --> 01:12:39.500 the whole Christ and you. 1298 01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:41.199 So do you worship his human nature? 1299 01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:45.800 Why not? Well, I thought you. 1300 01:12:46.300 --> 01:12:49.239 So there is worship proper to some creatures, in your view? 1301 01:12:51.590 --> 01:12:55.210

Let's not... So you don't want to go there? 1302 01:12:55.229 --> 01:12:59.409 You haven't answered this. Does the honor you give to 1303 01:12:59.430 --> 01:13:02.510 the icon pass on to the archetype? The answer is 1304 01:13:02.569 --> 01:13:06.149 that Christ is a unique case that he's different than 1305 01:13:06.289 --> 01:13:09.449 Peter and Paul. I agree. So wouldn't you say that 1306 01:13:09.869 --> 01:13:12.739 the honor you give to an icon of Christ is 1307 01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:14.880 different from the honor you give to an icon of 1308 01:13:14.899 --> 01:13:15.180 Peter and Paul? 1309 01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:17.380 Yeah, you could even say that because in some cases 1310 01:13:17.460 --> 01:13:20.199 we say the same thing about the Eucharistic elements. 1311 01:13:20.260 --> 01:13:22.060 Sure. We worship the Eucharistic elements. 1312 01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:25.449 So could you say you worship an icon of Christ? 1313 01:13:25.470 --> 01:13:27.390 Not this one. That's Peter and Paul. Could you say 1314 01:13:27.430 --> 01:13:31.409 you worship in the fullest sense... Yes. An icon of Christ. 1315 01:13:31.550 --> 01:13:35.760 Because it passes over to the unique case of the God-man. 1316 01:13:35.850 --> 01:13:38.100 Okay, so that's what I was clarifying. 1317 01:13:38.380 --> 01:13:38.819 Let me finish. 1318 01:13:38.920 --> 01:13:41.659 That's why at, for example, the Council of Ephesus, it 1319 01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:44.979 is said you must worship the whole Christ, including his 1320 01:13:45.180 --> 01:13:45.800 human nature. 1321 01:13:45.859 --> 01:13:47.760 So do you worship a creature in the sense of 1322 01:13:47.800 --> 01:13:48.359 his human nature? 1323 01:13:49.500 --> 01:13:49.670 Um.... 1324 01:13:51.430 --> 01:13:54.069 I worship Jesus. I worship Jesus. And he still has 1325 01:13:54.090 --> 01:13:55.750 a human nature. So you're not going to answer the question? 1326 01:13:55.909 --> 01:13:57.449 I worship Jesus. I worship Jesus. 1327 01:13:57.529 --> 01:13:58.550 Okay, does he have a human nature? 1328 01:13:59.130 --> 01:13:59.310 Yeah. 1329 01:13:59.550 --> 01:14:00.340 Do you worship that too? 1330 01:14:00.770 --> 01:14:01.840 I just worship the person. 1331 01:14:02.619 --> 01:14:04.159 Does that person possess a human. 1332 01:14:04.180 --> 01:14:05.220 I don't know what else to tell you. 1333 01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:06.699 Does the person possess a human nature? 1334 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:07.199 But hang on, just. 1335 01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:08.659 So he doesn't want to even answer. This is how 1336 01:14:08.739 --> 01:14:10.829 silly this position is. He won't even say he worships 1337 01:14:10.850 --> 01:14:12.029 the whole... I just want to make sure I understand. 1338 01:14:12.050 --> 01:14:14.350 He can't speak with Ephesus and say, I worship the 1339 01:14:14.390 --> 01:14:15.050 whole Christ. 1340 01:14:15.189 --> 01:14:15.310 Now. 1341 01:14:15.409 --> 01:14:17.170 I just said it. I worship the person. 1342 01:14:17.189 --> 01:14:19.520 No, you're talking around it. Does that include the human nature? 1343 01:14:19.600 --> 01:14:21.600 I just wanted to... I already answered your question. Just 1344 01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:22.350 at the very end. 1345 01:14:23.319 --> 01:14:24.279 I just want to make sure. 1346 01:14:24.420 --> 01:14:27.140 I answered it multiple times, and now I'm asking you, 1347 01:14:27.159 --> 01:14:28.819 do you worship His human nature as well? 1348 01:14:28.859 --> 01:14:34.420 This is short follow-up. So when they said at Nicaea 1349 01:14:34.420 --> 01:14:40.840 2 that they venerate the images, the icons, but don't 1350 01:14:41.100 --> 01:14:46.260 give the icons the adoration or worship that's due to 1351 01:14:46.300 --> 01:14:48.520 God alone, you would say that an image of Christ 1352 01:14:48.619 --> 01:14:52.159 is the exception. You do give the icon of Christ... 1353 01:14:52.770 --> 01:14:57.409 the worship and adoration that are due only to God, 1354 01:14:57.449 --> 01:14:58.720 and you do that to the icon. 1355 01:14:58.850 --> 01:15:02.359 The exception is that the icon itself is a window 1356 01:15:02.439 --> 01:15:04.659 looking and pointing to the human nature of Christ. 1357 01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:06.760 Yeah, but the honor you give to the icon passes on. 1358 01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:08.680 And so if the honor due to Christ... And that's 1359 01:15:08.699 --> 01:15:11.340 two different honors. Yeah. It's two different... Exactly, exactly. So 1360 01:15:11.539 --> 01:15:13.439 the honor you give to the icon... If the honor 1361 01:15:13.460 --> 01:15:15.430 you give to the icon... If the honor due to 1362 01:15:15.470 --> 01:15:18.050 Christ is worship in the fullest sense, then you could 1363 01:15:18.069 --> 01:15:19.970 say you do it to the icon, it just passes on. 1364 01:15:19.989 --> 01:15:22.279 So you could actually say... That if you have an 1365 01:15:22.319 --> 01:15:25.220 icon of Christ, you worship the icon in the fullest sense. 1366 01:15:25.319 --> 01:15:28.659 Just like you say with his human body. It's a 1367 01:15:28.779 --> 01:15:31.520 conduit or a medium, just like the early church fathers. 1368 01:15:31.550 --> 01:15:32.520 A piece of wood would be the same thing. Let 1369 01:15:32.550 --> 01:15:36.010 me finish. Just like the bread and the wine, when the. 1370 01:15:35.989 --> 01:15:38.029 Church fathers in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century talk 1371 01:15:38.069 --> 01:15:41.710 about the Eucharist as the medicine of immortality, as the 1372 01:15:42.029 --> 01:15:44.970 body and blood of Christ, that, say, Justin Martin 150 1373 01:15:44.970 --> 01:15:48.130 says that the Eucharist was taken after the consecration, to 1374 01:15:48.210 --> 01:15:51.489 use the term Eucharist, It's taken to those who are 1375 01:15:51.630 --> 01:15:53.890 sick and not at church. That's what the Latin church 1376 01:15:53.909 --> 01:15:56.850 calls viaticum. It's the same principle of last

rites that 1377 01:15:56.880 --> 01:15:58.840 we have in the Orthodox Church. So you'll notice that 1378 01:15:59.300 --> 01:16:02.460 his own argumentation is contrary to what is said about 1379 01:16:02.500 --> 01:16:04.659 the Eucharist, which shows that we. 1380 01:16:06.079 --> 01:16:08.439 Worship the whole Christ, including in the Eucharist. 1381 01:16:08.600 --> 01:16:09.539 We're out of time. 1382 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:12.060 David, I know you've got another round in the chamber 1383 01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:15.500 you'd like to fire back. Fortunately, your rebuttal is next. 1384 01:16:15.539 --> 01:16:17.699 So whatever you were planning on saying, you're welcome to 1385 01:16:17.739 --> 01:16:19.340 say in this six-minute rebuttal. 1386 01:16:20.539 --> 01:16:22.439 And the timer is set for you, David. 1387 01:16:23.260 --> 01:16:24.640 And I'll start it on your first word. 1388 01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:29.380 You're right. 1389 01:16:29.460 --> 01:16:32.880 Sorry about that. It is Jay's six minutes. And then 1390 01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:34.819 we'll go over to David for six minutes. Jay, the 1391 01:16:34.840 --> 01:16:36.060 floor is all yours for six minutes. 1392 01:16:36.390 --> 01:16:39.170 So notice that the principle that we talked about, first 1393 01:16:39.210 --> 01:16:42.420 of all, with the. area he didn't want to go 1394 01:16:42.479 --> 01:16:45.579 with bibles he knows damn well that bibles are just 1395 01:16:45.680 --> 01:16:48.680 as created as objects on wood if i took bible 1396 01:16:48.739 --> 01:16:51.260 passages like a lot of protestants do where they have 1397 01:16:51.300 --> 01:16:53.979 like bible verses and wood cuts that they hang up 1398 01:16:54.039 --> 01:16:57.680 in their house is that any different than a image 1399 01:16:57.739 --> 01:17:01.779 that pictorially shows you what's going on in say the 1400 01:17:01.819 --> 01:17:05.850 baptism of christ icon right So pictorial imagery is really 1401 01:17:05.949 --> 01:17:09.100 no different other than a moving and changing of the 1402 01:17:09.220 --> 01:17:13.640 actual written painted symbols than a book. A paragraph in 1403 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:18.130 the Bible is functionally no different than an icon showing 1404 01:17:18.170 --> 01:17:20.550 you the story of the baptism of Christ. Now again, 1405 01:17:21.189 --> 01:17:24.850 the question was not do you venerate the Bible the 1406 01:17:24.890 --> 01:17:28.529 same way that Orthodox venerate icons? The question was, do 1407 01:17:28.569 --> 01:17:32.539 you admit that the Bible is a unique, venerable book? 1408 01:17:33.020 --> 01:17:35.079 And most Protestants have on the cover of their Bible, 1409 01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:37.159 Holy Bible, meaning that it's set. 1410 01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:39.579 Apart, it's sanctified, it's not like every other book. 1411 01:17:40.329 --> 01:17:44.539 That's a holy object that every Protestant almost worships. Now, 1412 01:17:44.600 --> 01:17:46.439 he makes fun of Muslims all the time. 1413 01:17:46.760 --> 01:17:49.119 He's a Muslim with the text. You search the scriptures 1414 01:17:49.180 --> 01:17:50.500 because you think that it's in them that. 1415 01:17:50.460 --> 01:17:52.579 You have eternal life. When is they that bear witness 1416 01:17:52.640 --> 01:17:55.439 of me, Jesus says. So he has a book religion, 1417 01:17:55.479 --> 01:17:57.590 which is ironic because it's exactly the same as the 1418 01:17:57.630 --> 01:17:59.829 Muslims that he constantly debates for the last 20 years. 1419 01:18:00.250 --> 01:18:03.649 He's just as much as a book worshiper as the Quranist, 1420 01:18:04.050 --> 01:18:07.409 which is ironic. Because at the same time, when he's 1421 01:18:07.550 --> 01:18:11.979 asked basic Christological questions about Christ's human nature and worshiping 1422 01:18:12.020 --> 01:18:14.479 the whole Christ, he stumbles and fumbles around it because 1423 01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:17.079 he realizes it's the exact same argument that we're making 1424 01:18:17.140 --> 01:18:22.100 about created objects becoming holy and becoming venerable. That's why 1425 01:18:22.119 --> 01:18:25.289 the early church had this exact same practice. 1426 01:18:25.310 --> 01:18:28.010 And by the way, he's totally wrong about Eusebius. He quoted... 1427 01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:30.420 what is now believed by scholars to be a forgery. 1428 01:18:30.500 --> 01:18:34.279 The letter to Constantia is considered a forgery. Eusebius talks 1429 01:18:34.340 --> 01:18:38.319 about idols, just like Origen does, and that idols are 1430 01:18:38.359 --> 01:18:39.520 the things that we reject. 1431 01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:42.409 You saw that with the fumbling around Nehushtan, which he 1432 01:18:42.449 --> 01:18:42.909 left out. 1433 01:18:43.550 --> 01:18:47.210 Precisely what makes the object holy versus not holy is, 1434 01:18:47.630 --> 01:18:51.180 whether it's referring to a good thing or a bad thing. 1435 01:18:51.560 --> 01:18:54.800 So an image of Anton LaVey would be a bad thing. 1436 01:18:54.859 --> 01:18:56.779 I'm not going to venerate an image of Anton LaVey. 1437 01:18:57.720 --> 01:18:59.840 But an image of Mary would not be a bad 1438 01:18:59.880 --> 01:19:02.380 thing because she is the new Ark of the Covenant. 1439 01:19:02.939 --> 01:19:06.779 So just as the Old Testament objects are holy and venerable, 1440 01:19:07.119 --> 01:19:11.050 that same principle and practice passed into the sacramental theology 1441 01:19:11.109 --> 01:19:14.850 of the New Testament and the early apostolic era. That's 1442 01:19:14.930 --> 01:19:18.609 why they reverence the relics of Polycarp like they are 1443 01:19:18.810 --> 01:19:21.850 gold and stones, or better than that, that's 150 AD. 1444 01:19:22.050 --> 01:19:27.380 Tertullian talks about the prevalence of altars, Cross is being 1445 01:19:27.460 --> 01:19:31.300 raised up and honored because it is honorable. If we 1446 01:19:31.380 --> 01:19:33.890

honor these things in the created temporal realm, we give 1447 01:19:33.949 --> 01:19:35.069 honor to the U.S. 1448 01:19:35.109 --> 01:19:35.550 Flag. 1449 01:19:35.609 --> 01:19:37.789 It's not supposed to touch the ground. It's not supposed to, 1450 01:19:38.189 --> 01:19:41.289 you know, be folded in a haphazard way. It's honored 1451 01:19:41.310 --> 01:19:44.250 because it's a symbol that represents the country, and everybody 1452 01:19:44.270 --> 01:19:46.199 knows that. And so we want to show deference and 1453 01:19:46.239 --> 01:19:49.600 respect to our country. We show deference and respect to 1454 01:19:49.939 --> 01:19:54.359 created authorities. That's why you can have people bowing before. 1455 01:19:54.420 --> 01:19:54.899 You'll notice. 1456 01:19:55.340 --> 01:19:59.659 Elijah didn't rebuke Elisha when he bowed because it was 1457 01:19:59.720 --> 01:20:02.840 a sign of deference. Jesus didn't rebuke the people that 1458 01:20:02.880 --> 01:20:05.779 he said will come and bow before his church in 1459 01:20:05.810 --> 01:20:07.119 Revelation 3. 1460 01:20:07.119 --> 01:20:09.109 So again, all this proves. 1461 01:20:08.850 --> 01:20:11.810 Is my point that you have to make a distinction between, 1462 01:20:11.829 --> 01:20:15.130 number one, an idol and a holy image, which is 1463 01:20:15.149 --> 01:20:17.510 all throughout the Old Testament, and the New Testament continues 1464 01:20:17.529 --> 01:20:20.210 that practice. That's why, for example, there's holy water in 1465 01:20:20.229 --> 01:20:22.350 the early church. That's a principle out of numbers that's 1466 01:20:22.390 --> 01:20:25.460 carried over into the early church. The anointing with oil 1467 01:20:25.539 --> 01:20:28.079 and holy oil is a practice that the early church 1468 01:20:28.119 --> 01:20:30.560 does out of the book of Acts. Holy oil is 1469 01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:32.760 not the same thing as everybody's olive oil that they're eating. 1470 01:20:32.800 --> 01:20:36.199 It's sanctified for a religious purpose, and that's why Origen 1471 01:20:36.369 --> 01:20:40.489 and Tertullian talk about the universal practice of Christian altars 1472 01:20:40.569 --> 01:20:44.970 being sanctified and venerated, especially at the tombs of the martyrs. 1473 01:20:45.390 --> 01:20:47.909 So he's totally false and wrong about every one of this. 1474 01:20:47.949 --> 01:20:50.600 He's not made one single good argument yet today that's 1475 01:20:50.659 --> 01:20:52.960 in any way consistent with what He's been trying to argue, 1476 01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:56.659 and that's why, for example, when he wants, say, early 1477 01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:00.220 attestation to this, he doesn't follow this on his own principle. 1478 01:21:00.659 --> 01:21:04.140 There is no early attestation or proof that there's four Gospels. 1479 01:21:04.920 --> 01:21:06.859 Why do we think that there's supposed to be four? 1480 01:21:07.380 --> 01:21:09.140 Do you know what the earliest reference

is to there 1481 01:21:09.159 --> 01:21:13.199 being four, which is now considered essential to Christianity, obviously, right? 1482 01:21:14.340 --> 01:21:17.880 It's Irenaeus 180. He's the first to say that there 1483 01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:21.890 are four Gospels. The Bible doesn't tell you there's four Gospels. 1484 01:21:22.439 --> 01:21:25.340 The Bible doesn't tell you that Matthew the Apostle wrote Matthew. 1485 01:21:25.390 --> 01:21:28.250 These are all aspects of tradition. Now, if something that's 1486 01:21:28.310 --> 01:21:32.029 not explicit in the first, second, or third century like 1487 01:21:32.069 --> 01:21:34.670 that that he holds to, and at the same time, 1488 01:21:35.130 --> 01:21:41.619 veneration of crosses, baptismal signet rings is universal imagery, catacomb imagery, etc. 1489 01:21:42.819 --> 01:21:43.680 relics, etc. 1490 01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:46.659 same principle, veneration and worship of the Eucharist, the real 1491 01:21:46.680 --> 01:21:50.659 presence— If all of that is way more universal and 1492 01:21:50.720 --> 01:21:54.850 well-grounded than his own position of there being four gospels, 1493 01:21:54.859 --> 01:21:58.250 which he can't prove outside of apostolic tradition, then obviously 1494 01:21:58.329 --> 01:22:00.810 this is a much stronger case even than his basis 1495 01:22:01.109 --> 01:22:04.810 for the four gospels. But he's operating on a double 1496 01:22:04.829 --> 01:22:07.220 standard because he's not going to tell you that. He's 1497 01:22:07.260 --> 01:22:09.520 not going to apply that same standard of, I want 1498 01:22:09.560 --> 01:22:12.779 explicit references in written text. Did you know that there's 1499 01:22:12.819 --> 01:22:16.159 not many passages or works in the early church fathers 1500 01:22:16.300 --> 01:22:19.010 about prayer? I guess we don't have any knowledge of 1501 01:22:19.069 --> 01:22:22.050 Christian prayer because there's not a bunch of texts written 1502 01:22:22.090 --> 01:22:27.239 explicitly about early Christian prayer. Now, it's a late development, 1503 01:22:27.279 --> 01:22:29.859 and usually the reason that there's, quote, late developments, which 1504 01:22:29.899 --> 01:22:33.460 are not late developments, they are reactions to heretics. All 1505 01:22:33.500 --> 01:22:37.520 the councils are reactions to heretics proposing a challenge to 1506 01:22:37.560 --> 01:22:41.310 something that already exists. So, for example, the fact that 1507 01:22:41.760 --> 01:22:45.479 there is a debate about the deity of Christ at 1508 01:22:45.500 --> 01:22:48.119 the time of Nicaea. We wouldn't conclude from that that, well, 1509 01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:51.020 I guess because it's being debated, it's a late development 1510 01:22:51.039 --> 01:22:52.579 and there was no belief in the deity of Christ 1511 01:22:52.600 --> 01:22:53.420 prior to Nicaea. 1512 01:22:53.439 --> 01:22:55.159 This is a silly line of argument. 1513 01:22:55.479 --> 01:22:55.899 Time. 1514 01:22:55.960 --> 01:22:59.079 Thank you very much for that rebuttal. I have got 1515 01:22:59.520 --> 01:23:02.460 the timer set for you, David, for six minutes as well. 1516 01:23:05.300 --> 01:23:10.850 Check, check, check, check. Okay. All right, well... Is this working? 1517 01:23:11.029 --> 01:23:15.640 A little bit closer. Check. I can't tell. 1518 01:23:15.649 --> 01:23:15.939 Is it working? 1519 01:23:16.899 --> 01:23:21.420 It's not working. It's just maybe. 1520 01:23:21.180 --> 01:23:23.739 A little bit lower, but go ahead, give it another shot. 1521 01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:29.239 Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check. Good? Okay. 1522 01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:34.010 All right, so I did find it interesting. This was 1523 01:23:34.029 --> 01:23:37.989 something I was just really wondering, that you can say... 1524 01:23:39.449 --> 01:23:44.170 that you worship in the fullest sense an image of Christ, 1525 01:23:44.229 --> 01:23:47.369 because that would pass on to the archetype. So we 1526 01:23:47.390 --> 01:23:49.229 need to draw a distinction there. You don't worship in 1527 01:23:49.250 --> 01:23:53.810 the fullest sense images of, say, saints or martyrs or 1528 01:23:53.829 --> 01:23:55.890 something like that, but an image of Christ. If it's 1529 01:23:56.289 --> 01:23:59.399 in your prayer corner, you can say that you actually 1530 01:24:00.220 --> 01:24:04.890 worship the icon of Christ, because that will pass on, 1531 01:24:05.149 --> 01:24:11.970 according to a massive, massive, massive distortion of what Basil 1532 01:24:11.989 --> 01:24:16.659 the Great actually said. Jay says that the letter of 1533 01:24:16.739 --> 01:24:19.600 Eusebius is a forgery. No, you can say it's disputed. 1534 01:24:19.659 --> 01:24:22.680 There are some people who argue that, but the majority 1535 01:24:23.340 --> 01:24:27.600 believe that it's authentic. He keeps pointing that you can 1536 01:24:27.659 --> 01:24:31.560 bow to people. I agree completely. Proskuneo. Yes, you can 1537 01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:38.159 proskuneo people. There's a reason that you are allowed to proskuneo, 1538 01:24:40.130 --> 01:24:42.529 let's say, a king or something like that as a 1539 01:24:42.689 --> 01:24:46.270 sign of respect. But the Bible says don't do that 1540 01:24:46.350 --> 01:24:48.789 to things in the heaven, not the sun, not the moon, 1541 01:24:48.810 --> 01:24:51.390 not the stars, or anything like that. The reason is 1542 01:24:51.670 --> 01:24:54.550 that if a king shows up and you bow to him, 1543 01:24:54.710 --> 01:24:58.350 it's pretty easy to distinguish what you're doing there from 1544 01:24:58.970 --> 01:25:02.390 worshiping God. You could tell the difference. It's like the 1545 01:25:02.409 --> 01:25:05.939 word Lord. You can call someone Lord in a sense, 1546 01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:08.960 but you have to be careful if you're talking about 1547 01:25:09.020 --> 01:25:12.340 something heavenly and calling it Lord, because

now... you're doing 1548 01:25:12.380 --> 01:25:15.619 something different. So again, and I said this in my 1549 01:25:15.659 --> 01:25:19.460 opening statement, the distinction is whether it's a religious act 1550 01:25:19.500 --> 01:25:22.500 or a non-religious act. You can bow to a king 1551 01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:25.600 in a non-religious sense. If you start bowing to objects 1552 01:25:25.659 --> 01:25:27.279 up there and you were even trying to do it 1553 01:25:27.319 --> 01:25:30.619 in a non-religious sense, then it starts being very easy 1554 01:25:30.659 --> 01:25:34.699 to confuse with religious acts. But again, the Bible says 1555 01:25:34.779 --> 01:25:38.220 don't bow to images that you make with your hand, 1556 01:25:38.239 --> 01:25:42.399 a block of wood, things like that. Jay says, well, 1557 01:25:42.420 --> 01:25:44.760 you know, we do things like respect the flag. Yeah, 1558 01:25:44.939 --> 01:25:46.840 you can respect the flag. You can respect all kinds 1559 01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:48.520 of things. You can respect all kinds of people and 1560 01:25:48.539 --> 01:25:51.260 so on. If someone had a flag and they put 1561 01:25:51.300 --> 01:25:54.779 it in a corner of their house and they bow 1562 01:25:54.859 --> 01:25:57.819 to it and burn incense to it and light candles 1563 01:25:57.859 --> 01:26:04.909 in front of it and pray while looking at it 1564 01:26:04.949 --> 01:26:11.529 and so on, even that would start looking something like idolatry. Um, 1565 01:26:13.149 --> 01:26:16.100 one issue, one issue in all of this is because, uh, 1566 01:26:16.170 --> 01:26:19.029 we didn't talk much about the second council of Nicaea, 1567 01:26:19.220 --> 01:26:21.359 which keep in mind, if, if the only thing that, 1568 01:26:21.760 --> 01:26:25.199 that the iconodules were saying is we're allowed to do this. Hey, we, 1569 01:26:25.380 --> 01:26:27.279 you know, we've examined what the Bible says and we 1570 01:26:27.300 --> 01:26:31.399 believe that it's okay. We can do this. That would 1571 01:26:31.420 --> 01:26:33.439 be one thing. That would be one thing. I don't 1572 01:26:33.460 --> 01:26:35.510 think you'd hear a peep out of me. But that's 1573 01:26:35.569 --> 01:26:38.130 not what they say. They say you have to do 1574 01:26:38.210 --> 01:26:41.090 it or you are cut off from the church and 1575 01:26:41.210 --> 01:26:45.350 cut off from God. You have to bow to the images. 1576 01:26:45.390 --> 01:26:48.109 You have to bow to the icons. You have to 1577 01:26:48.550 --> 01:26:51.750 kiss the icons or you are anathema. You're cut off 1578 01:26:51.789 --> 01:26:55.909 from God. That's something else entirely. Because now you're not 1579 01:26:55.930 --> 01:26:58.609 allowing someone to say, hey, I have an issue with this, man. 1580 01:26:58.630 --> 01:27:01.470 This doesn't seem right. You're not even allowing someone to... 1581 01:27:02.810 --> 01:27:06.859 do what their conscience demands. And apart from that, when 1582 01:27:06.880 --> 01:27:12.500 you demand this, you end up anathematizing other people. Gregory 1583 01:27:12.579 --> 01:27:16.659 the Great, who's a saint in the Orthodox Church. Gregory 1584 01:27:16.699 --> 01:27:20.220 the Great was anathematized by Nicaea II, if you believe 1585 01:27:20.260 --> 01:27:24.149 that that would apply retroactively. Gregory the Great said, we 1586 01:27:24.189 --> 01:27:26.210 have images, but they're just for education. We have tons 1587 01:27:26.229 --> 01:27:30.210 of illiterate people. We use these for education. Nicaea II 1588 01:27:30.229 --> 01:27:36.149 says you can't say that. You actually that they're just 1589 01:27:36.189 --> 01:27:40.489 for education. You have to also venerate them. You have 1590 01:27:40.529 --> 01:27:44.279 to kiss them. If you don't, you're anathema. So the 1591 01:27:44.319 --> 01:27:49.619 people who came before who said, yeah, of course, we're 1592 01:27:49.640 --> 01:27:51.979 fine with art. We're fine with art. That actually helps. 1593 01:27:52.000 --> 01:27:55.600 That's cool. If you say that's all they're for, then 1594 01:27:55.619 --> 01:27:57.859 you're anathema. And so I don't even know how this works. 1595 01:27:57.899 --> 01:28:02.369 If you're anathematizing your own saint's Now, Jay says, well, 1596 01:28:02.390 --> 01:28:04.689 there's no early attestation for the four gospels. Well, the 1597 01:28:04.750 --> 01:28:07.689 four gospels are first century. If you're saying, yeah, the 1598 01:28:07.909 --> 01:28:11.960 number four, I don't even know what you're demanding here. 1599 01:28:12.720 --> 01:28:16.619 Besides that, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying, hey, 1600 01:28:17.140 --> 01:28:21.130 we just don't have an early reference for this. I'm 1601 01:28:21.149 --> 01:28:23.130 not saying, oh, you don't have an early reference for 1602 01:28:23.210 --> 01:28:27.699 venerating icons. If Nicaea 2 is saying it's a salvation issue, 1603 01:28:27.739 --> 01:28:30.619 it's necessary for salvation, and we can't find a word 1604 01:28:30.680 --> 01:28:33.140 about it from the apostles, doesn't sound like that's what 1605 01:28:33.159 --> 01:28:35.750 they were teaching, and it's not apostolic. If you had 1606 01:28:36.050 --> 01:28:40.680 centuries of church fathers who seem hostile to just Christian 1607 01:28:40.859 --> 01:28:45.289 art in general and you believe that during this whole 1608 01:28:45.369 --> 01:28:49.930 time they're venerating icons and everyone's got their icons... Okay, 1609 01:28:49.989 --> 01:28:55.029 it doesn't line up. If the historians, Roman Catholic and 1610 01:28:55.170 --> 01:28:58.569 Eastern Orthodox, who examine this issue say, yeah, this is 1611 01:28:58.609 --> 01:29:00.689 a later practice. This came about in the sixth and 1612 01:29:00.729 --> 01:29:03.689 seventh centuries. That's when we start hearing about the veneration. 1613 01:29:03.729 --> 01:29:06.729 That's where we start hearing the defenses of the veneration 1614

01:29:06.770 --> 01:29:10.359 and so on. And again, they even called it a myth. 1615 01:29:10.420 --> 01:29:12.220 They said it's this myth that it goes back to 1616 01:29:12.239 --> 01:29:15.239 the first century. So this isn't simply, hey, where's your 1617 01:29:15.279 --> 01:29:18.199 early reference? People can do all kinds of things, and 1618 01:29:18.220 --> 01:29:20.119 you don't have a reference for it at all. It 1619 01:29:21.619 --> 01:29:24.609 definitely can't be as important as an Isaiah 2 makes it. 1620 01:29:24.699 --> 01:29:27.539 It just can't be. This is this really important issue 1621 01:29:27.579 --> 01:29:29.989 for all these centuries, and no one mentions it, except for, oh, 1622 01:29:30.010 --> 01:29:31.869 you've got pictures in the catacombs. What's that got to 1623 01:29:31.909 --> 01:29:37.489 do with the veneration of images being necessary for salvation? 1624 01:29:37.630 --> 01:29:40.949 You don't see any of that. So, guys, if you're 1625 01:29:41.329 --> 01:29:44.029 looking at probabilities here, And you find some practice that 1626 01:29:44.050 --> 01:29:45.989 all of a sudden starts getting mentioned in the 6th 1627 01:29:46.010 --> 01:29:48.329 and 7th centuries and causes this big reaction because people 1628 01:29:48.350 --> 01:29:50.130 are like, what are you doing here? This seems weird. 1629 01:29:50.930 --> 01:29:52.149 And you say this goes all the way. 1630 01:29:52.109 --> 01:29:52.649 Back to the beginning. 1631 01:29:52.689 --> 01:29:54.229 It was important and the apostles were doing it and 1632 01:29:54.270 --> 01:29:57.250 so on. It sounds like you're just making stuff up 1633 01:29:57.310 --> 01:29:59.989 about the apostles. And that would seem bad to me. 1634 01:30:00.560 --> 01:30:04.020 Time. Thank you for that rebuttal. We will go into 1635 01:30:04.039 --> 01:30:06.619 the five-minute closings, gentlemen. So I've got the timer set 1636 01:30:06.659 --> 01:30:08.920 for you, Jay, for five minutes. 1637 01:30:10.319 --> 01:30:13.460 We all paid attention to what David said in his 1638 01:30:13.699 --> 01:30:18.300 opening statement versus where we've gotten to now having moved 1639 01:30:18.319 --> 01:30:21.470 the goalpost and contradicted himself. If you remember, he said 1640 01:30:22.520 --> 01:30:27.689 this is a late development, a late development. Now it's 1641 01:30:27.890 --> 01:30:31.310 not a late development. It's all over the old ancient church, 1642 01:30:31.390 --> 01:30:36.390 but it just shouldn't be enforced. It shouldn't be something 1643 01:30:36.430 --> 01:30:41.010 that's necessary for salvation or That's, you know, touted at 1644 01:30:41.050 --> 01:30:41.810 Nicaea too. 1645 01:30:45.100 --> 01:30:47.619 That's a contradiction. That's moving the goalpost. 1646 01:30:47.779 --> 01:30:51.039 First of all, the two historians that he mentioned are 1647 01:30:51.079 --> 01:30:57.010 not historians. He mentioned two Orthodox theologians who have known sort. 1648 01:30:56.850 --> 01:30:58.270 Of ecumenist tendencies. 1649 01:30:59.010 --> 01:31:02.729 So the old scholarship, for example, and he mentioned, I think, 1650 01:31:02.770 --> 01:31:07.079 Leo Davis, that's almost 40 years ago. So new scholarship 1651 01:31:07.119 --> 01:31:10.600 has actually delved into this topic, much like new scholarship 1652 01:31:10.739 --> 01:31:15.000 in Judaism has admitted a whole bunch about multiplicity in 1653 01:31:15.039 --> 01:31:17.500 Yahweh in the Old Testament and his embodiment. We use 1654 01:31:17.539 --> 01:31:21.520 that sort of argumentation against Muslims. He's using old argumentation 1655 01:31:21.619 --> 01:31:24.770 and a few choice picked out, you know, pick and 1656 01:31:24.810 --> 01:31:27.470 choose citations that back up his case. 1657 01:31:27.850 --> 01:31:30.710 But that's why I'm telling you that this whole book has. 1658 01:31:30.630 --> 01:31:35.770 Been written by Orthodox defenders, Michael Garten's early icons, But 1659 01:31:35.850 --> 01:31:41.960 even before that, there was already standard iconographic defenses from 1660 01:31:42.039 --> 01:31:44.699 Lossky and Ouspensky, such as the Theology of the Icon, 1661 01:31:44.720 --> 01:31:48.279 which refute a lot of the generic hand-waving claims that 1662 01:31:48.319 --> 01:31:51.439 he made. He seems to not think that the four 1663 01:31:51.500 --> 01:31:54.300 Gospels is that big of a deal. I specifically made 1664 01:31:54.340 --> 01:31:59.289 an argument that if you're going to ask for widespread, say, 1665 01:31:59.409 --> 01:32:03.210 written disputational evidence of something to believe, or say, I 1666 01:32:03.250 --> 01:32:06.869 want the second century defense of the veneration of images, 1667 01:32:07.210 --> 01:32:08.970 the argument was just simply to say that there's all 1668 01:32:09.029 --> 01:32:13.220 kinds of things that Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox take as 1669 01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:17.159 normative and implicit in the Scriptures that Or implicit, even 1670 01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:20.159 the 1st and 2nd century, that are not explicit, nor 1671 01:32:20.220 --> 01:32:23.479 do they have a written, necessarily, argumentation approach. 1672 01:32:23.689 --> 01:32:26.550 So, for example, there's not many works on prayer in 1673 01:32:26.569 --> 01:32:27.670 the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century. 1674 01:32:27.729 --> 01:32:28.569 It's mentioned, but. 1675 01:32:28.529 --> 01:32:32.800 There's not specific disputational works on it. There's not disputational 1676 01:32:32.840 --> 01:32:37.010 works necessarily on all kinds of later theological controversies, but 1677 01:32:37.050 --> 01:32:40.630 we don't conclude from that that therefore argument from silence, 1678 01:32:40.670 --> 01:32:42.390 it doesn't exist and it's not there. And he's already 1679 01:32:42.409 --> 01:32:46.539 been contradicting by saying that it's a late development and then, oh, well, 1680 01:32:46.560 --> 01:32:48.680 I guess it did exist,

but it doesn't matter because 1681 01:32:48.699 --> 01:32:51.319 it's just still a problem. So he doesn't even have 1682 01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:54.000 a conception of why the four Gospels matter or why 1683 01:32:54.039 --> 01:32:55.340 we think there's four Gospels. 1684 01:32:55.520 --> 01:32:56.960 Are there ten? Are there five? 1685 01:32:57.319 --> 01:33:01.050 It matters because there's a bunch of pseudepigrapha and Gnostic Gospels, 1686 01:33:01.100 --> 01:33:04.770 so it really matters which ones are considered canonical and normative. 1687 01:33:05.010 --> 01:33:07.390 But my point is that we all take that as 1688 01:33:07.470 --> 01:33:11.229 a default now as Christians, but there's no early written 1689 01:33:11.409 --> 01:33:16.850 disputed argumentation until Irenaeus mentions four Gospels, and it becomes 1690 01:33:16.949 --> 01:33:21.560 normative via the apostolic tradition. Irenaeus also talks about the 1691 01:33:21.649 --> 01:33:24.359 rule of faith, which is an early sort of creedal 1692 01:33:24.420 --> 01:33:27.859 version of how to test the true and the false churches. 1693 01:33:27.960 --> 01:33:30.220 And one of those tests, if you read Against Heresies 1694 01:33:30.279 --> 01:33:33.000 into Book 3 and Book 4, is apostolic succession and 1695 01:33:33.020 --> 01:33:35.319 the tradition of the apostolic succession churches. 1696 01:33:35.979 --> 01:33:37.039 David has none of that. 1697 01:33:37.220 --> 01:33:40.029 In fact, he's patching together just a bunch of random 1698 01:33:40.420 --> 01:33:44.420 quotes from random scholars. So again, the argumentation was very clear, 1699 01:33:44.479 --> 01:33:49.359 very precise, that the incarnational principle is what, from the 1700 01:33:49.479 --> 01:33:51.180 Old Testament all the way into the New, is the 1701 01:33:51.260 --> 01:33:54.159 basis for why we do what we do in our church, 1702 01:33:54.359 --> 01:33:58.470 and why that is the ancient perennial Hebrew and Christian 1703 01:33:58.529 --> 01:34:02.689 practice of venerating holy objects and giving to God alone 1704 01:34:02.770 --> 01:34:06.409 the worship due to God alone. That's the dulia latria distinction, 1705 01:34:06.449 --> 01:34:10.329 latria adoration, dulia veneration. He says, well, only in a 1706 01:34:10.369 --> 01:34:13.470 religious or not a religious context. There is no area 1707 01:34:13.510 --> 01:34:16.380 of life, according to the Ten Commandments, that is not religious. 1708 01:34:16.899 --> 01:34:19.840 Honor your father and mother. Well, I'm honoring them, but 1709 01:34:19.880 --> 01:34:22.939 not in a religious context. There is no non-religious context 1710 01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:24.899 of that honoring, according to the Ten Commandments. So he 1711 01:34:24.960 --> 01:34:28.149 has to make up these distinctions and play these games 1712 01:34:28.189 --> 01:34:30.750 and move the goalposts to make that system work, and 1713 01:34:30.789 --> 01:34:31.409 it doesn't work. 1714 01:34:31.750 --> 01:34:34.170 You've seen it be inconsistent on the human nature of Christ. 1715 01:34:34.729 --> 01:34:36.979 The reason Nicaea is so strong about this is that 1716 01:34:37.069 --> 01:34:40.420 it precisely reflects back onto the theology of the incarnation. 1717 01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:43.640 If I don't believe that matter can be sanctified and 1718 01:34:43.680 --> 01:34:47.880 made holy, it undercuts the reality of Christ's human nature 1719 01:34:47.960 --> 01:34:50.479 and the worship of the whole Christ, not just his 1720 01:34:50.520 --> 01:34:55.189 divine nature. the whole embodied God-man. That's the argument of St. 1721 01:34:55.239 --> 01:34:59.970 Cyril and Ephesus. So when you undercut the principle of 1722 01:35:00.369 --> 01:35:04.090 imaging the divine through the icons, through the saints, the 1723 01:35:04.130 --> 01:35:06.550 bodies of the saints, the real presence in the Eucharist, 1724 01:35:06.869 --> 01:35:10.869 what you end up with is a Gnostic position where 1725 01:35:10.930 --> 01:35:14.630 I'm going to arbitrarily say God can only be imaged 1726 01:35:14.670 --> 01:35:16.810 in the created human nature of Christ, but not anywhere 1727 01:35:16.890 --> 01:35:19.510 else Oh, but also maybe I kind of worship Jesus, 1728 01:35:19.550 --> 01:35:21.430 but I don't want to say if it's the whole Christ, 1729 01:35:21.739 --> 01:35:22.520 just Jesus, man. 1730 01:35:23.409 --> 01:35:23.989 End time. 1731 01:35:24.029 --> 01:35:36.430 Thank you very much for that closing. We'll kick it 1732 01:35:36.449 --> 01:35:38.409 over to David for his five-minute closing as well. 1733 01:35:43.770 --> 01:35:56.609 Chick, chick. All right, guys, this is what I call 1734 01:35:56.630 --> 01:36:01.890 a skeptometer. I could have just said it, but you 1735 01:36:01.909 --> 01:36:08.659 guys like images. Anyway, this kind of represents, everyone has 1736 01:36:08.739 --> 01:36:11.760 one of these in your head. You can raise or 1737 01:36:11.899 --> 01:36:15.239 lower your degree of skepticism. One of the things that 1738 01:36:15.380 --> 01:36:19.380 raises or lowers your degree of skepticism is how normal 1739 01:36:19.399 --> 01:36:22.229 do things seem? If you've been in a church all 1740 01:36:22.250 --> 01:36:28.279 your life where, let's say, they venerate icons, that will 1741 01:36:28.300 --> 01:36:30.140 seem completely normal to you. If you're from a church 1742 01:36:30.159 --> 01:36:32.390 where they've never done that and you see someone doing it, 1743 01:36:32.439 --> 01:36:35.279 that will look very strange to you. And so, if 1744 01:36:35.300 --> 01:36:39.619 you ask someone who's been in church all their lives 1745 01:36:39.739 --> 01:36:42.340 where this is completely normal, and you say, hey, what's 1746 01:36:42.359 --> 01:36:44.420 the proof of this? Well, they're not going to be 1747 01:36:44.460 --> 01:36:46.239 very skeptical of it. It's like, what are you talking about? 1748 01:36:46.279 -->

01:36:50.649 This is obviously what the church does. if it's completely 1749 01:36:51.010 --> 01:36:53.380 at odds with what someone's used to, and they say, okay, 1750 01:36:53.619 --> 01:36:55.279 are you supposed to be doing this? Well, you know, 1751 01:36:55.300 --> 01:36:56.939 your skepticism is going to be a bit higher. You're 1752 01:36:56.960 --> 01:36:59.000 going to say, all right, I need to see this. 1753 01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:01.680 I need to see some good evidence for this. And 1754 01:37:01.720 --> 01:37:05.199 so what we see is that when we address the 1755 01:37:05.279 --> 01:37:09.550 issue of icon veneration, And again, it's one thing if 1756 01:37:09.569 --> 01:37:11.550 you just said, you know, I've read the Bible and 1757 01:37:11.569 --> 01:37:13.010 I think this is in a different category and I 1758 01:37:13.010 --> 01:37:15.310 think I'm allowed to do it. That's one thing. But no, 1759 01:37:15.350 --> 01:37:18.600 this is apostolic. This was all along in the church. 1760 01:37:19.029 --> 01:37:24.800 This was standard. And it's required for salvation. Well, there 1761 01:37:24.939 --> 01:37:27.600 you'd be expecting some pretty good evidence for that. And 1762 01:37:27.619 --> 01:37:29.350 what do we say? Well, I got pictures in the catacombs. 1763 01:37:32.170 --> 01:37:34.060 If that's what you think of as evidence, it seems 1764 01:37:34.109 --> 01:37:38.960 like you're setting your skeptometer so low that anything would 1765 01:37:39.000 --> 01:37:41.960 qualify as proof. I mean, I can show you paintings 1766 01:37:42.020 --> 01:37:46.680 by Muslims of Muhammad. Would we say, therefore, that Muslims 1767 01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:50.789 are world champion icon venerators of Muhammad and that this 1768 01:37:50.850 --> 01:37:55.050 practice goes back to Muhammad's companions? I wouldn't. I wouldn't 1769 01:37:55.090 --> 01:37:59.449 say it just because we have some pictures in Islam. 1770 01:38:00.279 --> 01:38:02.789 Jay says, I contradicted myself by saying in my opening 1771 01:38:02.829 --> 01:38:05.609 statement that icon veneration is a late development, but now 1772 01:38:05.670 --> 01:38:07.270 I say that it was all over the place. I 1773 01:38:07.310 --> 01:38:10.630 have no clue what he was listening to. Icon veneration 1774 01:38:10.949 --> 01:38:15.409 was a very late practice. You can find images. That's 1775 01:38:15.449 --> 01:38:17.890 the point. They make no distinction between any sort of 1776 01:38:17.970 --> 01:38:25.270 picture and the practice, the gospel required practice of venerating icons. 1777 01:38:25.470 --> 01:38:27.770 If all you're saying is, hey, there were pictures, I 1778 01:38:27.789 --> 01:38:29.670 would say, okay, I agree. You can find pictures in 1779 01:38:29.689 --> 01:38:32.720 certain places. places. Does that mean people were doing the 1780 01:38:32.800 --> 01:38:36.300 venerating and that they regarded it as necessary for salvation? 1781 01:38:37.079 --> 01:38:38.979 If that's the case, I would expect to find it 1782 01:38:39.220 --> 01:38:41.340 in the Bible. What do we find in the Bible? Well, 1783 01:38:41.600 --> 01:38:44.819 definitely not that. And even when you're venerating Peter or 1784 01:38:44.859 --> 01:38:46.439 an angel, they say, don't do that to us. They 1785 01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:48.760 pointed to God. Stop doing that. They pointed to God. 1786 01:38:51.710 --> 01:38:56.109 Jay says, we don't need explicit early testimony. Well, again, 1787 01:38:56.189 --> 01:38:58.800 it's not just that. Something could be happening, and it's 1788 01:38:58.840 --> 01:39:03.460 just not a huge issue for people to mention. This 1789 01:39:03.560 --> 01:39:07.640 is apostolic and required for salvation, and you're anathema if 1790 01:39:07.659 --> 01:39:10.399 you don't do it. We don't find anything from the apostles. 1791 01:39:10.500 --> 01:39:14.590 We have centuries of church. We have Justin Martyr describing 1792 01:39:15.060 --> 01:39:17.590 what a church service was like in the second century. 1793 01:39:18.590 --> 01:39:20.949 He mentions all kinds of things. Where are the icons 1794 01:39:20.979 --> 01:39:23.739 that you're venerating? Why doesn't this come up at all? 1795 01:39:25.659 --> 01:39:28.739 So again, church fathers, first centuries, we're talking about all 1796 01:39:28.779 --> 01:39:31.260 kinds of things, debating all kinds of things. This issue 1797 01:39:31.279 --> 01:39:35.260 doesn't come up until the 6th and 7th centuries. So 1798 01:39:35.300 --> 01:39:37.659 in my opening statement, I pointed out some problems with 1799 01:39:37.699 --> 01:39:42.229 the Eastern Orthodox view of icon veneration. If you say 1800 01:39:42.270 --> 01:39:46.329 the veneration passes on to the archetype, well, the archetypes 1801 01:39:46.409 --> 01:39:50.199 told you not to do that to them. historians, including 1802 01:39:50.260 --> 01:39:52.960 Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox historians, admit it was a 1803 01:39:53.000 --> 01:39:56.939 late practice, not a practice that goes back to the apostles. 1804 01:39:57.600 --> 01:39:59.939 They admit that the early church had a general aversion 1805 01:39:59.979 --> 01:40:02.630 to images. When you point to an image somewhere and say, look, 1806 01:40:02.649 --> 01:40:05.109 that church had it, okay, those were the exceptions, not 1807 01:40:05.170 --> 01:40:10.970 the rule. This means, of course, that as far as 1808 01:40:11.010 --> 01:40:14.939 the evidence we actually have, as far as the evidence 1809 01:40:14.949 --> 01:40:19.279 we actually have from what the apostles said in the Bible, 1810 01:40:20.539 --> 01:40:23.899 and as far as what we find in the early centuries, 1811 01:40:24.899 --> 01:40:30.239 and as far as what historians who study this say, 1812 01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:39.310 the iconoclasts were more in line with the iconoclasts. So 1813 01:40:39.329 --> 01:40:48.630 if you prize your church, iconoclasts win that battle. One 1814

01:40:48.670 --> 01:40:52.670 last thing. One of the anathemas was against anyone who 1815 01:40:52.789 --> 01:40:56.930 communicates with the people who challenge icon veneration. Anyone who 1816 01:40:56.949 --> 01:40:58.649 communicates with them. Don't know if you realize, but we're 1817 01:40:58.670 --> 01:41:03.489 all communicating right now. So, Jay, all you OrthoBros, welcome 1818 01:41:03.569 --> 01:41:07.470 to the anathema club. Thank you very much for that closing. 1819 01:41:07.510 --> 01:41:08.289 David Wood. 1820 01:41:08.310 --> 01:41:18.359 Okay. All right, folks, we are about to get into 1821 01:41:18.439 --> 01:41:21.520 a quick abridged Q & A. So it will be quick. 1822 01:41:21.560 --> 01:41:23.939 If you want to line up on my right side here, folks, 1823 01:41:23.960 --> 01:41:26.920 we honestly really won't have time for more than five questions. 1824 01:41:26.960 --> 01:41:29.119 I hate to do that, but just because we are 1825 01:41:29.159 --> 01:41:31.149 behind on schedule, we've got to catch up. And so 1826 01:41:31.239 --> 01:41:33.569 I would say only five, the first five we could take. 1827 01:41:34.109 --> 01:41:36.789 And also want to give a huge thank you to 1828 01:41:36.869 --> 01:41:42.420 our sponsors, Apologetics Arc, Revival of the Anointed, and Uncensored 1829 01:41:42.439 --> 01:41:45.430 America and Yonaguni International Cuisine. 1830 01:41:45.470 --> 01:41:46.869 They're linked in the description box. 1831 01:41:46.909 --> 01:41:50.270 They help make DebateCon possible as they believe in fair debates. 1832 01:41:50.670 --> 01:41:52.609 With that, we're going to jump into the Q & A. 1833 01:41:52.630 --> 01:41:54.970 So folks, if you can do me a favor and 1834 01:41:55.270 --> 01:41:57.090 keep it down as we're going to jump into these 1835 01:41:57.289 --> 01:41:57.890 right now. 1836 01:42:00.340 --> 01:42:01.520 All right. 1837 01:42:01.539 --> 01:42:03.840 Thank you so much. All right. 1838 01:42:04.300 --> 01:42:06.920 So I am a Protestant pastor. This question is going 1839 01:42:06.939 --> 01:42:10.699 to be for Jay. I can ask a clarifier first, 1840 01:42:10.760 --> 01:42:11.340 if that's okay? 1841 01:42:11.359 --> 01:42:11.520 Okay. 1842 01:42:13.199 --> 01:42:13.340 Yeah. 1843 01:42:13.659 --> 01:42:14.000 Is that good? 1844 01:42:14.140 --> 01:42:14.380 Okay. 1845 01:42:14.779 --> 01:42:16.199 So the clarifier is going to be this. 1846 01:42:17.279 --> 01:42:21.979 Is icon veneration of Christ a necessary act to honor 1847 01:42:22.020 --> 01:42:27.609 Christ such that another intentional religious act cannot produce the 1848 01:42:27.649 --> 01:42:28.210 same result? 1849 01:42:32.970 --> 01:42:35.310 What would be another act that you're thinking of? 1850 01:42:35.949 --> 01:42:37.670 Well, no, no, I'm just, I'm asking you whether or 1851 01:42:37.710 --> 01:42:38.880 not it's a necessary act. 1852 01:42:39.609 --> 01:42:42.579 It's necessary because of the incarnational principle in general. 1853 01:42:42.970 --> 01:42:46.329 So it is necessary. So, okay, according to this, this 1854 01:42:46.350 --> 01:42:50.250 would be my question then. What is one result that 1855 01:42:50.289 --> 01:42:55.770 is accomplished through icon veneration of Christ that cannot be 1856 01:42:55.869 --> 01:43:00.130 accomplished through another intentional religious act without question begging? 1857 01:43:00.250 --> 01:43:00.529 Thank you. 1858 01:43:05.399 --> 01:43:08.819 Again, I don't understand the question's relevance because if there's 1859 01:43:09.260 --> 01:43:17.909 a principle of incarnational sacramental reverence for holy objects, the 1860 01:43:17.970 --> 01:43:22.180 fact that it's a pictorial painted image, or whether it's 1861 01:43:22.939 --> 01:43:24.199 the book made without. 1862 01:43:23.939 --> 01:43:27.840 Hands, it's the same principle. 1863 01:43:28.180 --> 01:43:31.270 So the fact is not, it's not a matter of like, 1864 01:43:31.659 --> 01:43:33.750 I'm going to reverence all of these things except the 1865 01:43:33.909 --> 01:43:37.109 icon because these other things achieve it. It's the principle 1866 01:43:37.130 --> 01:43:38.489 would be inconsistently applied. 1867 01:43:39.409 --> 01:43:42.090 Well, when you say that the act is necessary to 1868 01:43:42.149 --> 01:43:43.369 produce some result. 1869 01:43:43.800 --> 01:43:47.020 Because it would be inconsistent to say, well, these things 1870 01:43:47.079 --> 01:43:49.680 are okay, but not the image, not this thing. This 1871 01:43:49.720 --> 01:43:51.939 thing is bad, but this thing is good. 1872 01:43:52.039 --> 01:43:54.000 It's inconsistent principle application. 1873 01:43:54.359 --> 01:43:54.439 Yeah. 1874 01:43:54.479 --> 01:43:57.779 But I'm saying whenever you are doing something to the icon, right. 1875 01:43:58.060 --> 01:44:01.199 That's producing some sort of result. Now you agreed that 1876 01:44:01.220 --> 01:44:04.140 the act that you're doing there is actually necessary to 1877 01:44:04.220 --> 01:44:06.939 produce that given result. What I'm asking in terms of 1878 01:44:06.979 --> 01:44:10.020 the question that you, uh, that I asked is what 1879 01:44:10.380 --> 01:44:15.630 is that result that cannot be produced through another religious act? 1880 01:44:16.390 --> 01:44:17.670 It's an irrelevant question. 1881 01:44:17.750 --> 01:44:18.550 It is not irrelevant. 1882 01:44:18.609 --> 01:44:21.430 It is irrelevant because you're a heretic, because it's the 1883 01:44:21.470 --> 01:44:24.930 same principle applied to both. And so you're going to 1884 01:44:24.970 --> 01:44:28.939 have an inconsistent application to say that this is bad 1885 01:44:29.060 --> 01:44:31.939 to reverence this thing, but to treat this thing as 1886 01:44:32.000 --> 01:44:34.739 holy and to revere it is good. So the principle 1887 01:44:34.880 --> 01:44:36.920 undercuts the incarnation in toto. 1888 01:44:39.500 --> 01:44:40.340 Thank you both for coming. 1889

01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:43.380 Really great debate. David, I've been a fan of your 1890 01:44:43.420 --> 01:44:45.920 work for a very long time. And then, for what 1891 01:44:45.939 --> 01:44:49.590 it's worth, not all the apostolic traditions that venerate icons 1892 01:44:49.609 --> 01:44:50.470 hold to Nicaea, too. 1893 01:44:50.510 --> 01:44:50.970 Mine does not. 1894 01:44:51.750 --> 01:44:54.649 But my question is, let's say that there's a man 1895 01:44:55.090 --> 01:44:58.229 who is stuck late at work and in the office, 1896 01:44:58.489 --> 01:45:01.279 and he has a picture of his wife on his desk. 1897 01:45:02.060 --> 01:45:04.020 And he hasn't seen her a long time, and out 1898 01:45:04.039 --> 01:45:07.140 of an intense longing for her, he kisses the picture. 1899 01:45:08.029 --> 01:45:10.649 Is the affection that he's showing affection that is for 1900 01:45:10.729 --> 01:45:12.710 his wife, or did he just cheat on his wife 1901 01:45:12.829 --> 01:45:13.939 with ink and paper? 1902 01:45:19.239 --> 01:45:19.600 Check, check. 1903 01:45:20.500 --> 01:45:21.199 This working? Check. 1904 01:45:22.300 --> 01:45:22.659 Yeah, guys. 1905 01:45:22.859 --> 01:45:25.949 By the way, I understand the principle. I understand the principle. 1906 01:45:27.270 --> 01:45:31.369 If you saw a picture of Trump or something like that, 1907 01:45:31.390 --> 01:45:34.609 you went and ripped it up. Pretty clear that that's 1908 01:45:34.649 --> 01:45:37.810 directed towards Trump, not towards the paper. The paper could 1909 01:45:37.850 --> 01:45:40.510 have had anything on it. So I get that. I 1910 01:45:40.529 --> 01:45:43.909 get that. That's not the issue. I mean, so again, 1911 01:45:44.449 --> 01:45:46.680 here's an icon. And people say, hey, you know, what 1912 01:45:46.689 --> 01:45:48.609 if I kiss a picture of my wife? Guys, I 1913 01:45:48.640 --> 01:45:50.960 really don't know. Here, here. Make your day. 1914 01:45:51.880 --> 01:45:52.100 Is that? 1915 01:45:52.119 --> 01:45:55.300 I don't know. All right. Yeah. I don't have a problem. 1916 01:45:59.609 --> 01:46:02.630 I wouldn't have a problem with that sort of thing. 1917 01:46:02.689 --> 01:46:05.239 So it's more along the lines of this. If you 1918 01:46:05.279 --> 01:46:09.520 had a picture of your wife and then you put 1919 01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:13.319 it in a prayer area and you face it while 1920 01:46:13.380 --> 01:46:17.359 praying and burn incense to it, then it seems way 1921 01:46:17.399 --> 01:46:19.590 more than just a polite sign of respect. I have 1922 01:46:19.609 --> 01:46:23.409 no problem showing respect to the apostles or honoring the apostles. 1923 01:46:23.630 --> 01:46:25.630 Matter of fact, I just wanted to say this because 1924 01:46:25.750 --> 01:46:28.640 I didn't bring it up earlier on this issue. You 1925 01:46:28.659 --> 01:46:30.859 had the iconoclast. The iconoclast did all kinds of things, right? 1926 01:46:31.380 --> 01:46:33.680 Some of it, it was actually pretty rare for them 1927 01:46:33.699 --> 01:46:36.039 to be smashing things. They would generally cover them up 1928 01:46:36.079 --> 01:46:37.779 or replace them with a cross or something like that. 1929 01:46:38.300 --> 01:46:39.699 But they had different kinds of arguments. Some of them 1930 01:46:39.720 --> 01:46:41.840 were just based on, hey, this looks like idolatry. Some 1931 01:46:41.880 --> 01:46:47.619 of them were Christological. One of the most interesting response 1932 01:46:48.560 --> 01:46:54.039 from the iconoclast was, hey, if you If you really 1933 01:46:54.119 --> 01:46:56.560 want to honor the saint, if you want to honor 1934 01:46:56.600 --> 01:46:58.609 the saint depicted, what are you doing here with the 1935 01:46:58.649 --> 01:47:02.630 block of wood? Go out and imitate the virtue of 1936 01:47:02.670 --> 01:47:05.850 the saint, and then you become the image of the 1937 01:47:05.909 --> 01:47:10.050 saint's virtue. That, to me, seems way more in line 1938 01:47:10.069 --> 01:47:12.689 with us being the image of God and things like 1939 01:47:12.750 --> 01:47:16.050 that than, you know, again, going down to, you know, 1940 01:47:16.069 --> 01:47:17.810 just focusing on lifeless things. 1941 01:47:18.189 --> 01:47:19.689 I won't ask a follow-up just for time, but I 1942 01:47:19.729 --> 01:47:21.340 was wondering if I could give you this little gift 1943 01:47:21.399 --> 01:47:24.859 of an icon of St. Moses the Strong, whose story 1944 01:47:24.899 --> 01:47:25.939 I think you would really appreciate. 1945 01:47:26.340 --> 01:47:26.619 Oh, sure. 1946 01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:27.880 Yeah, and tell me what it's about later. 1947 01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:31.439 Real quick, I want to say in response to that, 1948 01:47:31.479 --> 01:47:34.539 you'll notice that the same principle is, the principle is 1949 01:47:34.600 --> 01:47:37.560 essentially admitted right here, because In the case of a 1950 01:47:37.699 --> 01:47:40.819 relative that had passed on, we have relatives that have 1951 01:47:40.840 --> 01:47:42.920 passed on in the church, and many of them that 1952 01:47:42.960 --> 01:47:44.840 lived a holy life are called saints. In the book 1953 01:47:44.859 --> 01:47:47.020 of Revelation, chapters 5 through 9, you'll notice that they 1954 01:47:47.060 --> 01:47:49.449 are involved in the same worship of God that we 1955 01:47:49.569 --> 01:47:52.510 are liturgically. John is seeing into heaven and participating in 1956 01:47:52.529 --> 01:47:53.310 that heavenly worship. 1957 01:47:53.729 --> 01:47:54.289 So we are. 1958 01:47:54.289 --> 01:47:57.270 Kissing the brethren, as Paul says to do, with our 1959 01:47:57.590 --> 01:48:00.420 fellow brethren that are also in heaven. So same principle, 1960 01:48:00.439 --> 01:48:01.100 he's already admitted it. 1961 01:48:01.279 --> 01:48:01.880 We'll go to the next one. 1962 01:48:02.979 --> 01:48:05.859 This is a question for David. So in your opening statement, 1963

01:48:05.939 --> 01:48:08.880 one of the ways you classified veneration was looking at 1964 01:48:08.920 --> 01:48:11.479 an icon in prayer. And you claimed that once the 1965 01:48:11.510 --> 01:48:15.109 bronze serpent was venerated, it was destroyed. You later claimed 1966 01:48:15.170 --> 01:48:18.609 that looking at the bronze serpent is not veneration. So 1967 01:48:18.770 --> 01:48:22.069 setting aside Nehushtam, or burning incense, if the Israelites looked 1968 01:48:22.090 --> 01:48:24.630 at the bronze serpent in hope or prayer to be healed, 1969 01:48:25.090 --> 01:48:27.189 did they venerate it in your view? And if so, 1970 01:48:27.210 --> 01:48:29.529 why wasn't it immediately destroyed? 1971 01:48:31.109 --> 01:48:32.970 I mean, I don't even know. He just said, look 1972 01:48:33.010 --> 01:48:34.869 at it, right? That's what he said. He said, look 1973 01:48:34.949 --> 01:48:36.890 at it and you'll be healed. So I got bit 1974 01:48:36.930 --> 01:48:39.430 by a snake. I can look at the thing God 1975 01:48:39.489 --> 01:48:43.409 told me to look at and that by obeying God 1976 01:48:43.449 --> 01:48:47.840 on that issue, then I'll be healed of the snake bite. 1977 01:48:48.060 --> 01:48:50.380 But no, I don't think that just looking at something is. 1978 01:48:51.989 --> 01:48:53.789 Venerating. I mean, I'm looking around right now. If I 1979 01:48:53.810 --> 01:48:56.729 were praying in my head, I wouldn't consider... It's the collection. 1980 01:48:56.939 --> 01:48:59.119 It's the whole collection of things. Again, you could kiss 1981 01:48:59.180 --> 01:49:01.119 a picture of your wife. You could kiss someone. You 1982 01:49:01.159 --> 01:49:04.329 could bow to... You could bow to a king or 1983 01:49:04.369 --> 01:49:06.869 something like that. It's this whole collection of things that 1984 01:49:06.890 --> 01:49:11.529 you're all doing to these. And again, that still wouldn't 1985 01:49:11.609 --> 01:49:14.760 be the main issue. If you just said, hey, we're 1986 01:49:14.770 --> 01:49:17.220 reading the same passages and we interpret them and we 1987 01:49:17.380 --> 01:49:19.439 think we're allowed to do this, that would be one thing. 1988 01:49:19.659 --> 01:49:24.260 Making it part of the gospel. When we know, we 1989 01:49:24.300 --> 01:49:27.439 know what the Bible says about adding something to the gospel. 1990 01:49:28.140 --> 01:49:32.930 And then the only evidence for this Being some early practice, well, 1991 01:49:33.300 --> 01:49:36.020 we've got some artwork in certain places. It's just it 1992 01:49:36.100 --> 01:49:36.720 looks completely wrong. 1993 01:49:36.760 --> 01:49:39.079 That was not the only evidence. Not the only evidence. 1994 01:49:39.520 --> 01:49:41.479 Just some artwork. That's what's wrong, man. Nobody argued that. 1995 01:49:42.420 --> 01:49:43.359 We're going to go to the next question. 1996 01:49:43.979 --> 01:49:44.260 Brace. 1997 01:49:45.340 --> 01:49:46.279 Yep. 1998 01:49:46.510 --> 01:49:47.970 So this question is for David. 1999 01:49:48.789 --> 01:49:52.069 Tertullian, after he actually left the Christian church and became 2000 01:49:52.109 --> 01:49:55.050 a Montanist, he wrote a very popular work around his 2001 01:49:55.109 --> 01:49:57.949 time called On Modesty, where he actually was writing a 2002 01:49:57.970 --> 01:50:00.609 polemic against the various doctrines of the church. in the 2003 01:50:00.649 --> 01:50:02.630 second century. And one of these things that he did 2004 01:50:03.090 --> 01:50:06.409 was that he refuted iconodulia in chapters five through seven. 2005 01:50:06.770 --> 01:50:09.640 If that's something that he refuted regarding Christian doctrine, would 2006 01:50:09.659 --> 01:50:11.979 that not be a hostile witness towards iconodulia in the 2007 01:50:12.020 --> 01:50:12.600 second century? 2008 01:50:14.399 --> 01:50:17.960 Yeah, why don't you bring me the passages and I'll 2009 01:50:18.760 --> 01:50:19.220 check them out. 2010 01:50:21.840 --> 01:50:23.729 Thank you guys both so much for the debate. I 2011 01:50:23.770 --> 01:50:25.890 respect both of you tremendously. I've been watching you guys 2012 01:50:25.909 --> 01:50:27.449 for a long time. I'm trying to figure out whether 2013 01:50:27.470 --> 01:50:30.630 to become Orthodox or not. My question is for Jay. 2014 01:50:31.789 --> 01:50:36.340 Why is venerating icons of saints and venerating saints mandatory? 2015 01:50:36.579 --> 01:50:38.220 How is that related to Christology? 2016 01:50:38.899 --> 01:50:42.140 Because the saints take on the grace that Christ gives us. 2017 01:50:42.170 --> 01:50:44.930 We become sons by grace. He's a son by nature, 2018 01:50:44.970 --> 01:50:47.670 and he makes us sons through adoption, which is very 2019 01:50:47.710 --> 01:50:51.579 important for, as we said, Hebrews 9 through 11 and 2020 01:50:51.680 --> 01:50:54.880 Revelation 5 through 9, because those are understood from our 2021 01:50:54.920 --> 01:50:58.880 position to be liturgical passages. We're understanding and looking into 2022 01:50:59.399 --> 01:51:02.420 the liturgical worship that's going on in heaven. The saints 2023 01:51:02.479 --> 01:51:05.619 are honored in heaven. If Christ honors his saints, remember 2024 01:51:05.680 --> 01:51:07.739 in the passages early on in Revelation, right? I will 2025 01:51:07.770 --> 01:51:10.319 give you crowns. You will be crowned. Even in the 2026 01:51:10.359 --> 01:51:13.510 early church, they would do crowning. They would give just 2027 01:51:13.550 --> 01:51:17.329 like heroes in war would be crowned. So likewise, the 2028 01:51:17.390 --> 01:51:19.569 tombs of the martyrs would be crowned. This was a 2029 01:51:19.590 --> 01:51:23.829 common practice. So again, the practices of venerating the tombs, 2030 01:51:23.930 --> 01:51:26.729 including having the Eucharist, go to the catacombs in Rome 2031 01:51:26.789 --> 01:51:30.340 and you will see imagery and you will see altar 2032 01:51:30.439 --> 01:51:33.930 tombs where they would do the Eucharist at the burial 2033 01:51:33.989 --> 01:51:37.649 site of the martyrs. And even Origen in his homilies 2034 01:51:37.710 --> 01:51:42.869 on Joshua says these are sanctified by the deified bodies. 2035 01:51:42.600 --> 01:51:43.880 Of the saints. That's our position. 2036 01:51:43.920 --> 01:51:45.579 He says that they're sanctified by the blood of the 2037 01:51:45.600 --> 01:51:48.680 martyrs and the blood of Christ. That's the Eucharistic altar 2038 01:51:48.720 --> 01:51:50.119 that Hebrews 13.10 talks about. 2039 01:51:51.619 --> 01:51:52.539 Thank you very much. 2040 01:51:52.619 --> 01:51:54.859 And folks, if you can wait just a moment before 2041 01:51:54.899 --> 01:51:56.500 you get up and take off, is I'll have a 2042 01:51:56.520 --> 01:51:58.989 couple of quick housekeeping things. But first, I do want 2043 01:51:59.010 --> 01:52:01.210 to give a huge round of applause to Dr. David 2044 01:52:01.229 --> 01:52:11.039 Wood and Jay Dyer. Huge thanks to Revival of the 2045 01:52:11.079 --> 01:52:15.119 Anointed's Rule, equipping Christians to fight for biblical values through 2046 01:52:15.180 --> 01:52:25.779 policy victories. Check out ReviveTheRoar.org. Special thanks to our sponsor, 2047 01:52:25.979 --> 01:52:30.229 Uncensored America. Want to host a controversial speaker on your 2048 01:52:30.270 --> 01:52:35.630 college campus? Start a chapter now on your campus at uncensoredamerica.us. 2049 01:52:39.390 --> 01:52:43.300 Huge thanks to our sponsor, Apologetics Arc. Check out their 2050 01:52:43.359 --> 01:52:46.979 app today by downloading it. 1 Peter 3.15 says always 2051 01:52:47.020 --> 01:52:54.970 be ready to give a defense. Huge thank you to 2052 01:52:54.989 --> 01:53:00.279 our sponsor, Yonaguni International Cuisine of Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. Check 2053 01:53:00.319 --> 01:53:01.579 them out on your next trip.