บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Real State of Tech Hiring: AI, Ghosting, and the Developer Drought - JSJ 698

00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.680 hospital all right, Because I'm the oldest of ten kids 77 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.840 at the time, there weren't ten of us. But yeah, anyway, 78 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:58.000 so I basically went and laid down in my parents' bed, 79 00:03:58.080 --> 00:03:59.639 and my mom woke me up when she got home 80 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.120 and said to my bed in that way, if anyone 81 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.280 came looking for mom, they'd find me. Anyway. But yeah, 82 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:07.879 and then he had a hip surgery that went bad, 83 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:13.680 and they the doctor, so they were replacing his hip, 84 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:16.319 and when they were putting the ball or socket, which 85 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.360 everyone goes on your leg bone back on, the way 86 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:22.240 that they do that is they wedge it into your bone. 87 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.000 And when the doctor wedged it in, he split the bone. 88 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.800 And so my dad had nerve nerve damage in his 89 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.600 left leg, and so he basically would half drag his 90 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:35.120 left leg and so he just wasn't active because it hurt. 91 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.120 And it also hurt and so. 92 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:42.160 Anyway, yeah, yeah, I had a friend that had fiber 93 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:46.360 mialgia from church, and the way she described it to 94 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:51.040 us one time was, if you think about having a 95 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.279 rubber band a sort of tied it on your finger, 96 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:55.920 that pain is like that through your whole body and 97 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:57.040 just never stops. 98 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:02.600 Yep, yeah, yeah it was. Yeah, he was in chronic pain. 99 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:08.040 So anyway, it's much more common in women, apparently byber 100 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:08.519 mil ja. 101 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:11.759 But okay, but I don't know. 102 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:17.399 Yeah, anyway, so yeah, so I just twenty nineteen, I 103 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:20.560 just decided. I was like, I'm not I'm not going 104 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:22.920 to go through that and then, you know, go through 105 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:24.519 all the health issues and I kind of let things 106 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:27.399 go for a while, but I realized that I was 107 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.600 I was heading down that road. So I shaped up 108 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.600 earlier this year and I've been running and eat and 109 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:37.000 right I've lost about fifteen pounds feeling pretty darn good. 110 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.680 So yeah, anyway, yeah, I'm to the point now where 111 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.000 if I don't work out, I feel like a slug. 112 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:43.720 Yeah. 113 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:46.079 I did my prossit probably what four or five times 114 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.519 a week, and play basketball one day a week, and oh, 115 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:50.959 there you go and do that stuff. I saw one 116 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:54.120 of the funniest memes the other day on Instagram. It 117 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.720 was some Crossfoait account. It shows this picture of us, 118 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.839 just this big huge obe lady sitting there, and then 119 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:03.959 the caption is what I feel like when I miss 120 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:05.040 one day of workout. 121 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:07.160 Uh huh. 122 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.000 Here is like, oh my gosh, I missed today. I'm 123 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:12.079 gonna gain. I'm gonna you know, no, it's okay. 124 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:14.399 Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I've been doing here, let 125 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.319 me pull it up on my phone, because I've been 126 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:21.040 doing a program called seventy five Hard. I've done it before, 127 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:22.959 so you may have heard. Yeah, I remember you talking 128 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.759 about it, and so you take a picture every day. 129 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.439 I'll just hold my phone up to the camera and 130 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:32.040 it scott anyway. That's why you see pictures of my belly. 131 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.560 I'm here, but you can see where I'm at on 132 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:36.240 this if it'll show. 133 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.959 The numbers seventy two. 134 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.600 Huh yeah, I'm on day seventy three. So I finish 135 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:48.759 on Friday and then oh now my camera's out of focus. 136 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:51.600 That's super fun. So yeah, so I've been doing that. 137 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:53.519 And now when you work out twice a day and 138 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:56.959 read a book every day and drink a gallon of 139 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.160 water every day, and I've been feeling pretty good. 140 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:00.800 So that's what I need to do. Get better at 141 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.000 a springle I drink a good amount of water, not 142 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:03.800 a gallon a day. 143 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:04.279 Yeah. 144 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:08.160 I remember reading an article going down another rabbit hole. 145 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:11.240 I think it was on Hacker News or somewhere where 146 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:14.600 a lady talked about how she had started drinking a 147 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:19.639 gallon of water per day and and how you know, 148 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:21.040 it took a while to get used to but now 149 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:22.720 so used to it. And she uses like, you know, 150 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:24.920 flavorings and stuff in water, which to me can make 151 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:27.399 a big difference. But she said, just the benefits that 152 00:07:27.439 -->

00:07:30.240 she noticed in terms of flexibility, in terms of her skin, 153 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:32.839 in terms of so many different things. It really made 154 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:35.800 a big difference. And so yeah, I have my electrolyzed 155 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:37.240 that make my water taste a little better. 156 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:40.319 Yeah, so seventy five hard you get quite a gallon. 157 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:44.720 You can't add anything to the water. But yeah, so anyway, 158 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.759 it's it's pretty good. Yeah, I've been losing weight. I've 159 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:52.000 been feeling pretty good. My clothes fit different, so that's 160 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:52.839 always a nice thing. 161 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.000 Is when your pants aren't so tight, right, you don't 162 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:55.959 have to go buy new pants. 163 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.720 Well, my church pants, I basically I push I push 164 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.399 all the loose fabric to the back and I have 165 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.079 three belt loops that are all right next to each 166 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:04.759 other on the back. 167 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.040 So anyway, so in front of looks great. On the back, Hey, 168 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:13.360 you got some little loose waisted Yeah. 169 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:15.199 I needed to just go take them in, get it 170 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:19.439 taken in because where I got my suit, because I 171 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.240 just wear a suit for church, they do free alterations 172 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:24.439 for life when you buy from them, so I just 173 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.800 need to take it in and say, please don't fit anymore. Anyway, 174 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:32.840 let's talk about JavaScript and market stuff here for a minute, 175 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:34.519 and I don't know how far down the list we're 176 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:36.159 going to get. I mean, one of the things that 177 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:38.399 I wanted to talk through. And it sounds like you've 178 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.120 experienced some stuff with this, and I definitely have. I've 179 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:43.480 also been talking to people out there in the market, 180 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:45.639 and it seems like there are a lot of folks 181 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:50.720 that are looking for work right now, and the job 182 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.480 market's a little bit weird. I think AI is kind 183 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.080 of put some uncertainty out there. I don't know, what 184 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:58.720 are you see in and then I can kind of 185 00:08:58.759 --> 00:08:59.679 talk about some of the people. 186 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.840 I'm so I just started the job where I'm at 187 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:07.720 in mid June, and I started where I'm at in March, 188 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:14.919 so I had probably been looking for a year

before 189 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.639 I landed this one. And were you out of work 190 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:21.200 before or no? No, no, no, no, I was never out 191 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:22.919 of work. I was just wanting to get. 192 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.679 At you situation. Gotcha? Oh yeah. 193 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:31.840 I heard a statistic one time that said that something 194 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.000 like sixty nine percent of people that change jobs do 195 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.279 so because of their boss. And I followed that sixty 196 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.639 nine percent. So anyway, I look for. 197 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:43.000 You laugh because I've been there. 198 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:43.159 I have. 199 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.360 I've so been there where it's like, okay, I can't 200 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:48.559 take any more of this, and yeah, if it's not 201 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.120 my boss, it's because he tolerates something from somebody else. 202 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.159 Yeah. Well I've been let go. I've been you know 203 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.879 when I hear about, you know, people getting laid off 204 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.919 for bedroom employe or whatever I'm taking. You know, I've 205 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.039 had den camp three times because of financial issues, you know, 206 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.000 whether it's rounds of layoffs and entire office getting let go. 207 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:11.440 That was me last type of stuff. Yeah, I've had 208 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:13.039 that happen more time. You know, you just get up 209 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.440 and go find something else. But anyway, so my experiences 210 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:18.159 this time around was. 211 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:20.519 It just sucks. 212 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.559 I don't know, you know, if it's just AI filtering 213 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:29.639 things out. But I guess the thing that really bugged 214 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:35.399 me was, you know, employers will talk about applicants who 215 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.200 will you know, just not communicate that will go to you. 216 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.639 And I had that case. There was probably twenty twenty one. 217 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.279 I want to say twenty twenty one. I was trying 218 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.960 to hire a couple of Larevelle and View developers where 219 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:51.960 I was at, and I give an example. We had 220 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:56.679 this guy and this happened more than once, where we 221 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.879 really liked him and we wanted to give him an offer, 222 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:03.200 and we did continue upon references. And so this one 223 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:06.440 particular guy we liked and he gave us some references, 224 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.720 but they were it had been a few years since 225 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.000 he had actually

worked with these people and so and 226 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:14.120 they were fine, you know, what they had to say 227 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.159 was fine. And we said, well, okay, do you have 228 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.080 something like from your last job or something more recent? 229 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:18.600 Nothing. 230 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:23.320 He completely ghosted us. My boss, myself, nobody can go 231 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:24.879 with me to drop off phase of the earth, which 232 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.679 told me maybe there's something more recent. He wanted to hide, 233 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:31.399 and we had other people that you know, would just 234 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:36.919 drop away so all that to say, come around this time. 235 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.720 I'm on the other side of the of the situation 236 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.919 where I'm the one that's deploying. And I had companies 237 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.639 that would ghost me. Literally They would say, you know, 238 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:49.320 so you always it seems like you always go through 239 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:53.320 the screening interview with the HR type of person, right, 240 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:54.960 and they're going to ask you some sort of general 241 00:11:55.039 --> 00:12:00.759 questions and then if you know that, if you answer 242 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:03.080 their questions well enough, then you'll move on. They say, okay, y, 243 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.720 that's great, Okay, We're going to schedule with tech person. 244 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.279 And sometimes that would happen, you know. I had one 245 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:12.159 particular one, probably one of the better situations I had, 246 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:16.320 was a particular company and they were looking for a 247 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.840 Laravel PHP type developer, and I went through like the 248 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:25.399 second round with their senior, their manager tech engineering manager. 249 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.600 I can't remember his exact position anyway, and we went 250 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.480 through a lot of technical stuff and he was checking 251 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.639 my knowledge on basic development principles and PHP and that 252 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:38.519 kind of stuff, and iventually got the email says, I 253 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:40.320 think we decided to move on. So I wrote him 254 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.320 and I said, I said, hey, just had curiosity always 255 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:47.399 looking for feedback. Was it, this and this, you know 256 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.440 that wasn't able to answer, and he said he came 257 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.080 back and says, hey, thanks for getting back to me. 258 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:53.159 I appreciate that. I says, yeah, we're looking for some 259 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.039 of that as more and more sort of larger knowledge 260

00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.759 and engineering principles. And there was a specific book that 261 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:02.279 he referenced, classic development books that I went and got 262 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:07.960 and I'm already forgetting design Patterns by the Gang of Four. Yeah, yeah, 263 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.519 And I went and boughted after that, you know, to 264 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:12.240 familiar eyes with myself. At the next time. 265 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:12.879 He was great. 266 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:17.240 But I had other people where they would go through 267 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.080 the first interview, Yeah, we're gonna you know, interview, and 268 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:22.879 we wanted to go onto the second interview, and that 269 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:26.600 was it. Never heard from them again. And I would 270 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:28.480 look out where they had posted the job and they 271 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.080 still had it open, and just for grans, I would 272 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.480 just for grans, I would apply again and never heard 273 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.600 from anybody. That happened two or three times where they 274 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.399 say one thing, but then they don't even bother to communicate. Hey, sorry, 275 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.840 we decided to move on. We found a better applicant. Whatever, 276 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:45.879 you know, that's fine, that happens. I've been on that side, 277 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.399 I get it, but at least communicate, don't just ghost. Well, 278 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:50.799 that happened to me. That happened to me more times 279 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:53.039 than I wanted to count, where it's just they say 280 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:54.919 one thing and then they just drop off and can't 281 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.720 even have the courtesy to say, hey, yeah, we moved on. 282 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.120 Yeah. 283 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.159 And then the best though was I interviewed with the 284 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.799 company that was based here in the Portland area and 285 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.200 it was a La Belle PHP and I think some 286 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:15.639 jobs for I forget the details, but so I went 287 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:19.559 through and interviewed with a technical person and all the 288 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:21.879 feedback was great, yeah, you know you got this and 289 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.320 this next, we need to do some interview with that 290 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:28.440 and nothing. So like two or three weeks later, you know, 291 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.320 I'll wait and wait and then I'll follow hey, just 292 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:32.320 you know, checking up, see what's going on. You had 293 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:40.120 indicated this, haven't heard anything. And he finally got back 294 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:41.960 to me and was like, oh, yeah, we decided the 295 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.720 jobs on hold. We're not going to hire for it 296 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:47.600 money issues. So I don't remember what he said. I 297 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.639 was like, oh, okay, yeah, I get that. That's fine. 298 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.840 So then a month later, two or three weeks later, 299 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.480 I found a position. It was for a recruiter and 300 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.440 you know head hunter type of guy recruiter, and he 301 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:08.960 was hiring for this same position at the same company. 302 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.639 And the listing was the way it was listening, didn't 303 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.440 list the same company, but by reading it I could 304 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:18.799 tell this sounded really familiar. So just for grins, I 305 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:20.759 set up an appointment and I said, hey, see he 306 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:22.759 tells me about it. And I said, you know, I 307 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.720 just interviewed for them, and they told me that they 308 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.320 weren't hiring for the position, that they put it on hold. 309 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:35.240 He goes, huh, okay, well you know I just placed 310 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.879 somebody there, so I'll you know, yeah, I'll see what 311 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:40.360 I can find out and let you know, never heard 312 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:41.159 from him again either. 313 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:41.759 Oh wow. 314 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:47.759 So I'm like, hum, that's interesting. It's just it's just 315 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:51.600 irritating as heck. And then the job that I got 316 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:56.759 now was through connections, through personal connections, right, And I 317 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.919 didn't get the job just because the connection. I had 318 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:02.480 to run the whole gamut of values and a project 319 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.480 to do it. But it happened to be somebody that 320 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.799 mutual connection does My parents actually had know this guy, 321 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:13.120 and he said, hey, it's under web developers. Looking, he goes, uh, well, yeah, 322 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:16.080 happen to send me his resume. So I did, and 323 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.480 you know, I probably went through I calculated later like 324 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.480 five different hours of interviews plus a demo, a small 325 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:24.679 demo project, and I got it, you know, went through 326 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.480 all the and I had to beat somebody else, and 327 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.480 that's fine, but it was through somebody that I knew, 328 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.480 just through getting through all the screening and and the 329 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.039 you know, everything through the applications and then once I 330 00:16:38.080 -->

00:16:42.120 got in. And so the space I'm in right now 331 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.679 is is networking, you know, basically internet type of networking. 332 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.840 And it's I'm still drinking from the fire hose when 333 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.200 it comes to networking and terminology and the stuff. This 334 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:52.720 is crazy how much. 335 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:53.159 We have to learn. 336 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.679 But I'm making tools for like network engineers, is what 337 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.840 it is. So it's really cool. And so we had 338 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.919 to hire. We wanted a back in this world, the 339 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.319 back of his pythons, the language, the preferred language for 340 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.400 all of the things that we do dealing with networking, 341 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:10.160 and so we had to hire a back end person. 342 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.160 And I haven't been part of the process, but my boss, 343 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.640 you know, he's obviously hiring for it. And he was 344 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:20.599 telling me that when we would open up a position, 345 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.960 he would just they had to turn it off after 346 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:24.440 like a week and a half because they would just 347 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:32.519 get drowned with applicants. But the issue was a lot 348 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:37.119 of people just weren't qualified. He told me they had 349 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.680 a couple of different interviews where it was a foreign 350 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:46.000 national and he could barely speak English, and you know, 351 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.160 it seemed like his Python, his coding skills were great, 352 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.319 but he couldn't hint. You know, my boss said, one 353 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:55.119 of the basic requirements for me to be able to 354 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.039 understand to hire him is that I have to be 355 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.799 able to understand him right, you know, and I couldn't 356 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.640 even understand it, which is sort of important for communication. 357 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.599 Even you know, when you're using Slack, you know, there's 358 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.759 still a lot of verbal communication that we do in 359 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.400 person and you know, over zoom meetings and stuff like that. 360 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.160 And so we finally just hired a guy who's going 361 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.119 to start next week. But it took months, and I 362 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.559 had even had somebody I knew that had a lot 363 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:25.000 of IT skills and you know, submitted him and they 364 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.680 reviewed him, but you know, he didn't have that really 365 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:29.640 hit a lot of the requisite background that

we needed, 366 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.720 but but yeah, I was, you just get flooded with 367 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:35.960 so much stuff, but a lot of it you could 368 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:38.799 tell his AI. You'll hear jokes about how you know, 369 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.240 resumes that you submit you can tell that they've hit 370 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.279 all the AI keywords, and you know. Some of the 371 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:45.240 best excuses I've heard, and I don't remember if it 372 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.200 was one that we had. I heard Adam Argyle talking 373 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:52.119 from who used to be with Google. Huh and now 374 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.759 he's one of the hosts on a Whiskey and Web 375 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.799 and whatnot podcast that I'd like to listen to, and 376 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.599 he talks about, here's one of the most skilled guys 377 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.079 out there with CSS. I've heard him on multiple different places, 378 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.960 and he knows his stuff. It took him months, and 379 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:09.599 he was He talked a lot about this process and 380 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:12.160 about how frustrating it was for him too, going through 381 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:14.759 a lot of the same stuff, you know, five levels 382 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.640 of interviews because the seniors can't trust their you know, 383 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.839 managers to actually make a good decision. They have to 384 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.559 review it to you know type of stuff. But just 385 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:25.160 dealing with all the AI stuff, and I think one 386 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.279 of the things we heard was like examples I saw was, 387 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.680 you know, I've been working with tailwind since twenty fourteen. 388 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.720 Well Tailwind didn't exist in twenty fourteen, So it's sort 389 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:38.119 of hard. How do you work with something that didn't 390 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.039 exist at that one You know, that tells you, you 391 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:45.200 know that somebody's you know, just reading a job description 392 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.960 and is saying, okay, give me a cover let for this, 393 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.880 and it's saying as typical AI. If it doesn't have it, 394 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.200 it makes it up. And so you get stuff like 395 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.640 this saying you got skills for something that never existed 396 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.559 in you know, at that particular point in time, or 397 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.319 has any I've been working with so and so framework 398 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.640 for ten years, Well it's only existed for five, yeah 399 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:10.200 you know so. But yeah, it's it's just brutal. It's 400 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.160 just brutal wading through and you know, getting people to 401 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.839 communicate and and. 402 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:16.200 To be fair. 403 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.079 On the other side of things, they're getting flooded, you know, 404 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.519 they've got so much stuff to wade through and trying 405 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.759 to determine what's legit, yeah, versus what's not legit is tough. 406 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.680 So it's it sucks on both sides, It really doesn't. 407 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.759 Yeah, that's that's tricky. It's interesting because on the other end, 408 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:42.519 I just keep thinking of the situation. So back in 409 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:47.039 like twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, I think it was a 410 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:51.680 Rails comp. DHH got up and he said that he 411 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.880 had gotten or went on I think it went on 412 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:56.720 on Twitter and then people were talking about it Rails comp. 413 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:02.319 But he got contacted because by a recruiter that said, 414 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.759 you're the only person that we can find that has 415 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.039 ten years of experience with Rails. And the thing that 416 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.759 was funny was that he was the only person in 417 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:13.920 the world who had ten years of experience with Rails 418 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:18.799 because it had been released nine years ago, right, so 419 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.960 he you know, he'd been working on it privately at 420 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:21.799 base camp. 421 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.799 Right they and they wanted ten years with l Yeah, 422 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.119 maybe they need to look at their requirements. 423 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.160 Right, It was pretty funny. Yeah, I've seen all kinds 424 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.279 of stuff, and I think more and more people are 425 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.720 going to be looking for kind of the real genuine thing. 426 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.720 And so what you're talking about, I think AI is helpful. 427 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.680 Like if you hand at your resume and say, hey, 428 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.319 help me polish this, make suggestions things like that. But 429 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.839 I've done that with my resume when I was looking 430 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.160 last year or I guess it was early this year, 431 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.400 and yeah, it would, it would. It would suggest you 432 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.359 should put things like this on here, And I was like, yeah, 433 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:05.160 but I haven't done any of those things, right, Like 434 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:06.519 I have to. I have to be able to go 435 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.680 into an interview and talk about when I did these 436 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:14.119 things right, right, and and I would

really prefer not 437 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:16.599 to lie to people when I apply for jobs. 438 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:23.000 So anyway, yeah, especially if they come back later and 439 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:23.920 find out you lie. 440 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.319 Right, I mean, there's just there's no there's no good 441 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.680 scenario there. Your best case scenario is they never find out. 442 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:34.039 But why run Well but the other thing is is 443 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.759 that I I don't know, I would know and it 444 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:44.160 would bother me. So anyway, Yeah, but I can also see, hey, 445 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.599 you know, is there a better way to word this. 446 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:50.640 I would like this to you know, have more action 447 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:55.680 or active oriented stuff as opposed to you know, eliminate 448 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.039 passive voice in my resume kind of thing. You know. 449 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.960 So all that stuff it definitely helped, you know, And 450 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.680 some of the suggestions, there were a handful of them 451 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:05.359 where I was like, oh, yeah, I did that, and 452 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:12.880 that is something that helps, right. So anyway, Yeah, but 453 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.599 one thing that I've been hearing from people because my well, 454 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:18.119 let me back up. So you talked about kind of 455 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.720 the experience getting hired and hiring. They haven't been pulling 456 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.319 me in on interviews lately at Price Picks, and mostly 457 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.079 it's because they're interviewing front end folks and I just 458 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:31.440 I don't have enough react native experience to really go 459 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:39.079 deep with anybody. But yeah, you know, I applied for 460 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.680 a job and then the person who had listed the 461 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.880 job came back to me and said, I'm a recruiter 462 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.720 and this is Price Picks. Is that okay? And I 463 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.759 said yeah, And so then I went through the process. 464 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:51.640 So I applied for a company that I had never 465 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.200 heard before, and it turned out it was a company 466 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.799 I had heard of before. So it just kind of 467 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.759 worked out that way. And yeah, I did the first 468 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.279 interview and it was just kind of a with one 469 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.519 of the directors of the company, h you know, director 470 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:06.759 of engineering level folks. They're a handful of them at 471 00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:10.160 Price Picks, and so yeah, made sure I wasn't a 472 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.519 psychopath and somebody they liked to work with, and you know, 473 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:16.200 then did the technical interview and they gave me a 474 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:22.359 bunch of coding exercises on what what's that there's a 475 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.240 website that has a bunch of them on there. 476 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.039 There's a few different ones. What's the I can't even 477 00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:30.039 think of the main ones and people are probably screaming 478 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:34.039 at us, going, oh, this is so obvious. Yeah, I 479 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.480 can't remember the one that we used to use. I 480 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.799 try to block it out. Really, there's the one that 481 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.400 there's one really popular. I think I think it was 482 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.759 lead Code Lead Code. Yeah, that's it, and we can 483 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.160 literally they will, you can go practice for it. I 484 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.759 mean that stuffs pretty much dead now well with AI 485 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:53.839 because you can just get a question and run through 486 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.799 AI and you know, yeah, I heard stories that I 487 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:01.119 think my boss was telling me you said they him 488 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:02.839 or something. I don't remember where I heard the story, 489 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.599 but literally they had been in an interview where you 490 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.720 could tell that the person was typing stuff into AI 491 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:13.839 during the interview and getting answers out. 492 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:14.640 Wow. 493 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:22.200 Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, that's that's pretty Yeah, 494 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:23.880 got say it's fun, you know. I tried to get 495 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.160 away with something like that. Yeah, So I had done. 496 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:30.920 I had applied to a contract because I was in 497 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:33.200 a nightmare contract for the first three months of this year, 498 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:35.599 and so I was looking at another contract, and they 499 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:38.160 gave me a leak code to solve, and I solved it. 500 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:41.319 I solved it with like I I had a half 501 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.319 hour and I saw it twenty minutes. And anyway, it 502 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.240 was funny because when I had to do the eleak 503 00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:48.759 code for Price Picks, they gave me like five of 504 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:51.039 them to solve, and one of them was the one 505 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.920 that I had done like a week before, and so 506 00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.400 and I told him that too. I was like, look, 507 00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:59.880 I was like, this one's gonna look like I saw 508 00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:02.359 it in ten minutes. And the

reason is is because 509 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:04.920 I remember what I did on the other one, and 510 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.559 so I just did it again and made it a 511 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:07.200 little cleaner. 512 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.160 You know. 513 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:10.720 It's funny. When we were doing. 514 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:15.279 Gosh, I wish I could remember what platform we use. 515 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:17.400 But it was cool because you could sort of pick 516 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.160 and choose what questions you wanted to give. You know, 517 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.079 there'sp there's JavaScript or sequel or you know whatever, a 518 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.759 whole bunch of different categories. And one of the things 519 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.839 that you could tell was how long it took him 520 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:34.200 to do a question. And so we're looking at one 521 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.319 the results from one test that this guy had done 522 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:40.480 and one of them and my boss was really picky. 523 00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:42.319 I hadn't noticed this so much, but he would look 524 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.559 at time. He goes, Man, this guy got this one 525 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:46.759 real quick. And so he goes through and looks and 526 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:50.799 starts do some searching, and sure enough finds a GitHub 527 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:55.039 repo with answers to these specific questions. So basically, this 528 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.920 guy had found one out copy paste says that, Okay, 529 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.359 I'm good, you know, instead of at least making an 530 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:01.599 effort to you know, type it in and you know, 531 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.240 make it look like you'd actually taken some time and 532 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:04.640 doing it. 533 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.279 Yeah, but I had one. 534 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.000 I had one of the one of the positions that 535 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:10.920 I interviewed for, I had to do a coding test 536 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.160 and it was there was some JavaScript stuff and there 537 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.200 was some sequel And I've lived in SQL for years, 538 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.240 you know, doing quers and stuff like that, but it 539 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:26.839 was in their UI and I had no, you know, 540 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:29.240 nothing to play with. I had none of my usual 541 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:31.640 tools that I can use to debug something and step 542 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.640 through something or even just run some basic queries. You 543 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.039 just basically had to generate a query on the fly 544 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.279 and get it right. And I totally bombed them on 545 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.400 stuff that if I had my own tools and my 546 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:46.480 own you know, ways of

doing things I probably could 547 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.559 have done pretty easily, you know, even in a browser. 548 00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.799 And that was really frustrating. And they never even got 549 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.519 I submitted the test. I never even heard yeah you 550 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:56.440 didn't pass the test. No communication, no nothing. That was 551 00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.720 what was really frustrating about it. But for the job 552 00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.559 that I I'm at now, they had a little project, 553 00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:06.640 and what was cool about it was it wasn't just 554 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:09.480 some sort of make work type of thing, you know, 555 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.240 not a real situation. They said, here is you know, 556 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.240 if you try to use this carbon library from IBM, 557 00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:19.119 which is absolutely atrocious, I would never use it, you 558 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:21.720 know if you paid me money to use it as awful. 559 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.119 I ended up using Tailwind with it, and it was 560 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.880 using a little library called Codemere, which we use on 561 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:35.119 our current side it and uh, you know, like a 562 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.799 Yama editor type of thing anyway, and you know, create 563 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.960 a project that does this in this and generates file 564 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:44.039 in such such a format and saves it. And so 565 00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.680 it was pretty It turned out I was overthinking, was 566 00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:49.440 overthinking and trying to get the specific font colors and 567 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.079 spend more time on that than the rest of the project, 568 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:53.920 which I could have done in about you know, four hours. 569 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:56.720 But that was what was cool about it is I 570 00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.759 did my project, you know, pushed it up to get 571 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.799 they could all look at it. And then in my interview, 572 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:02.680 I just stepped went through and explained this is what 573 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:03.960 I did, and this is how I did it and 574 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:05.400 why I did it, and that great stuff. And it 575 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:06.920 worked great to me. 576 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:08.079 That was great. You know. 577 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:10.720 It wasn't like, you know, a huge LNG project. It 578 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:14.319 was a real project based on real life situation. And 579 00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.640 funny enough, I'm to the point now I'm actually working 580 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.240 with that exact same thing that I did in my 581 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:21.119 test project right now and what I'm working on. 582 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:31.119 Nice. Yeah, it's it's funny how those kind of come around. 583 00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:33.440 I like the idea of doing something that's more real world, 584 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:38.559 oh absolutely, you know, absolutely and make work. You know. 585 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.240 Imaginary projects are like, you know, give me a class 586 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.160 that generates what is something you pass it in. It's 587 00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.759 that you have to return a fruit. But your classes 588 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:51.279 have to you know, you got to have a base 589 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.119 class and then your different fruit types. Really where is 590 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:54.839 this real world? 591 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:55.279 You know? 592 00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:00.799 But you got an animal and needed I have this 593 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:02.720 one needs to growl and this one needs to bark. 594 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:06.200 And this one needs to not have a tail and okay, 595 00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:06.599 thank you. 596 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.319 Yeah, So anyway, kind of rolling back to back to 597 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.200 my hiring process, Yeah, I did that, and then I 598 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.400 went through the technical interview. The recruiter was involved the 599 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.599 whole time, and so he had all my results from 600 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:33.359 my coding exercises, which incidentally, he was like, they looked 601 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.720 at your coding exercises and you scored higher on that 602 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.359 than they've ever seen. But I've been doing Rube forever. 603 00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:42.799 So yeah, so was your recruiter like a recruiter that 604 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:44.359 worked for the company or like a third. 605 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:46.559 He was a third party recruiter that they had hired 606 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.720 and he just shepherded people through. But yeah, it was 607 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:54.079 it was pretty seamless process. After that, I want to 608 00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:57.440 spin a little bit toward where I'm talking to folks 609 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.720 and I'm I'm talking to some senior folks who are 610 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.400 having trouble finding work, like finding jobs, and then I'm 611 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.119 running across like junior people. It sounds like it's just 612 00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:09.319 impossible to find a job. 613 00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.079 Yeah, I've heard that too, and I think you and 614 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.920 I and Dan might have talked about this a couple 615 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.160 episodes ago when we were talking and I you know, 616 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.319 I haven't talked to you know, people myself but who 617 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.079 have been doing this. But what I'm what I read 618 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.640 in multiple places is that people aren't hiring junior so

much. 619 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:35.000 You know, they use They figure the AI can can 620 00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:36.759 do a lot of that stuff, so they only want 621 00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.160 to senior people. So of course, what's the classic twenty 622 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.720 catch twenty two? How do you get seen people if 623 00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.440 they have in the first place, Right, It's like, yeah, 624 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.200 automatically got to go to a boot camp and all 625 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:48.960 of a sudden you're an expert and then you can 626 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:53.240 get hired. It makes no sense. So you know, as 627 00:31:53.279 --> 00:32:00.359 an interview I read heard with the Coinbase CTO, one 628 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:03.359 of the c suitet people, and they were talking about 629 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.279 how they use AI for up to thirty to forty 630 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.079 percent of their code and that includes like review processes 631 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.880 and deployments and stuff like that. So it's it's quite 632 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:20.160 an interesting interview to listen to. But but yeah, I mean, 633 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:24.359 that's that's huge. That's a lot of especially for something 634 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:28.279 of that scale, that seems like a lot of code 635 00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:29.240 to be trusting your. 636 00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:36.599 To AI. Yeah, it's I don't know, I kind of 637 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.160 see it cut in both ways. I think it's short 638 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:42.319 sighted to hand off so much stuff to AI. I 639 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.720 think it's also short sighted not to be investing in 640 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:49.079 people because you're going to need them. That said, so 641 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.000 here here's the issue that I run into, and I'll 642 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.440 probably piss some people off with my opinions on some 643 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.920 of this stuff. So I was at a conference a 644 00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.519 few weeks ago and there were a couple of talks 645 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.319 on these topics, and one of the talks they were 646 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.680 going talking about, you know, well we have immense privilege 647 00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.119 and blah blah blah blah blah. And my deal is 648 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:10.680 is you you people who are talking about this have 649 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.799 never run a freaking business, right, You have no idea 650 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.000 what you're talking about, you know. It's It's one thing 651 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:21.119 if you know I have some margin and I'm willing 652 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:25.359 to train people, right. It's another thing if I'm in 653 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.640 a small, scrappy business and I'm just trying to eke 654 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.319 out the next few thousand dollars a month so that 655 00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:34.839 I can figure out who to hire next, right, and 656 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.039 then whoever I hire next, I need to get the 657 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.559 biggest bang for my buck out of them. And so 658 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:43.119 that may be a junior, right, if it's somebody in 659 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:45.759 my position and I'm building a like a software as 660 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:49.880 a service or something like that. I could see hiring 661 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.440 a junior developer, teaching them how to use the AI 662 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.000 tools and saying, okay, you know, if you if you're 663 00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.880 not sure, ask me, right, and so this is this 664 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.559 is how far I trust the AI. So this is 665 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.400 about how far I expect you to do it, and 666 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:06.839 then yeah, I'll mentor you through the rest of it. Right, 667 00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.239 And I can save myself some money and have a 668 00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.119 developer building features for me, or I may want to 669 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.280 go just hire somebody that's as high up in the 670 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.880 game as I can afford and do that right. And 671 00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:22.000 I think I think the talking about privilege or you 672 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:24.159 know this that or the other, any other kind of 673 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.239 concern is just stupid at that point because you're small 674 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.719 and you're just trying to get crap done. That the 675 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:34.679 bigger companies, I think they're insane if they're not investing 676 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.639 in their pipeline to bring people up, because at the 677 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.840 end of the day, what we're looking at is, yeah, 678 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:45.880 if nobody's hiring juniors, then the only people who are 679 00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.239 going to have mid level people to hire are going 680 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:51.159 to be the people who are training them as juniors. 681 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.559 And then the other thing is is that a lot 682 00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:56.519 of these companies have to change the way they think 683 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.840 about this stuff because what happens is they hire them 684 00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:01.920 is juniors, and they pay them as juniors for a 685 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.400 few years, and then they don't give them a raise 686 00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.440 and a promotion and a reason to stick around, and 687 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.159 then they lose them, and then they complain that they 688 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.679 lost them. And it's like, this isn't rocket science. If 689 00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:14.039 you give them a great place to work and you 690 00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:19.079 pay them

what they're worth, they'll stay. And so I 691 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:21.440 think there's some adjustment that's going to have to be 692 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.280 made there because the mindset on a lot of this 693 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.800 stuff is insane. But I just I don't know that 694 00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:28.880 they're going to hire as many people because yeah, a 695 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:30.599 lot of the stuff that I would hire a junior 696 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.679 developer for, I can get the AI to do it. 697 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.840 And if I'm if I'm solopreneuring my own software as 698 00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:42.400 the service and the marginal cost of my time and 699 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:45.199 money leads me toward, Hey, I'm gonna have the AI 700 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.760 do a lot of this basic stuff. You know, I 701 00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.320 save myself a whole bunch of time and effort. Then 702 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.800 I'm going to do it, and it's anyway, it's it's 703 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:57.639 kind of an interesting spot. But the other thing is 704 00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.920 is a lot of the boot camps are shutting down. 705 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:01.880 Like I've talked to a whole bunch of people that 706 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:02.760 run boot camps, and. 707 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.039 Yeah, that was that seemed like a sort of a bubble, 708 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:09.440 bubble that was waiting to pop, you know, because it 709 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:11.320 used to be you know, there was a hey day. 710 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.280 I'm sure you can remember this, and I've heard this 711 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.719 multiple places, you know, was you know, boot camp, go 712 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:18.440 to a boot can't come out and be expecting to 713 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.679 make six figures right out of the gate, you know, 714 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.639 because the man was there and it's over hiring, and 715 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:24.880 well that bubble is obviously. 716 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:26.320 Popped and they've laid off a bunch. 717 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:30.360 You know, it's basic, right, it's basic economics, right, you know, 718 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.559 the demand was there for a while and then you've 719 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:37.760 got over some demand decreases. But yeah, right, so you 720 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.360 know you need you need people that actually can do it, 721 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.239 you know, can do the work. And so I mean 722 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:46.519 just the number of tech jobs periods has dropped, so 723 00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.440 you don't have quite the demand for for getting as 724 00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.679 many developers out there. And so yeah, I mean, it's 725 00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:57.760 so logical, Yeah, what you expect to happen, Yeah, based 726 00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.440 on the decrease in demand. 727 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.000 But the the thing is is that software isn't like 728 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.719 a lot of other products in the sense that you know, 729 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:09.920 like if I go buy a whole bunch. We were 730 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.840 talking about like these energy drinks before the show, right, 731 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.320 and you know, I've got like three cases of energy 732 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.639 drinks because they were on sale, right, and so I 733 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:20.159 was like, I'm buying a ton of Net of the 734 00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.400 Gods baby, right, Yeah, I got I've got these form 735 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.079 energy drinks and I got plus water. I got them 736 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:29.239 from seven to eleven right when they were a bucketpiece 737 00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.039 during their one dollar promotion. Part of it I did 738 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:35.599 also because I really like Andy Frizella, and he was saying, 739 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.559 we're doing the one dollar deal. Go, you know, basically 740 00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:40.679 run them out of our product, right, show them that 741 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.039 people really want this stuff. And you know, he's he's 742 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.360 his podcast. I feel like I've learned a lot from 743 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.000 and so it's like, oh, I can go spend thirty 744 00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.239 or forty bucks and you know, do him a solid. 745 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.280 I get an energy drink I like, and so it 746 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.920 was a win win. But anyway, the difference is is 747 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:01.400 that once I have so many energy drinks, I'm not 748 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:03.920 going to need I'm not going to need more for 749 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.960 a while, right, I can only consume it so fast. 750 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:12.440 Software is different because there's always more stuff that I 751 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.159 can do, right, whether it's making it faster, making it 752 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.199 run better, making it cleaner, adding more features and so. 753 00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:25.400 On the one hand, yeah, right, there there was the 754 00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:28.119 demand was high, and a lot of it had to 755 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.639 do with the economy. Right. The economy was pretty good 756 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.079 under Trump until COVID, and then it slowed down a 757 00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:36.000 whole bunch. I think that hurt him in the election 758 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:38.320 and was part of the reason he didn't get elected. 759 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:40.679 I'm not going to get into all the politics of 760 00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.679 it because that will piss people off for no reason. 761 00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.960 But you know, the economy wasn't as good under Biden, 762 00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.000 and a lot

of stuff slowed down, and so you 763 00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:53.239 know it's like, hey, look, I can keep going on 764 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:55.960 what I have and not invest so much in the 765 00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.840 R and D side of development and still keep my 766 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.920 doors open and my customer's happy, and wait for the 767 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.239 economy to bump back up so that I can invest 768 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.840 more into kind of the speculative stuff later and so 769 00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:13.760 I think that's part of the reason why the amendment 770 00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:16.159 down too. And then the other thing is is that 771 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.920 in the Trump tax cuts. Right here, I'm going to 772 00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.960 smack both sides. In the Trump tax cuts, there was 773 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.960 a provision that changed in the tax law where before 774 00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.199 you could write off all of your R and D 775 00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:34.280 costs in the year that you spent it. And so 776 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.079 if I hired Steve Edwards and I said, Steve, I 777 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.360 want you to develop these six new features for me, 778 00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:43.159 and we're going to add them to the application, then 779 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.239 I could write that off as an R and D 780 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.719 expense this year, right or next year when I filed 781 00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:52.559 my taxes right as an R and D expense, And 782 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.840 they changed that, and they changed it so that you 783 00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:57.800 could only write off twenty percent per year, right, So 784 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.480 now I have to amortize it over five years. And 785 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:03.760 so all of a sudden, the tax incentives for me 786 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.840 to do this work aren't nearly as good, and I 787 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.440 have to ration the tax break that I'm getting over 788 00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:16.079 five years, and so I'm not as keen to invest 789 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:18.960 that money now into the R and D as I 790 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.519 was before. And I don't know, I think that affects 791 00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:23.519 the bigger companies a lot more in the smaller companies. 792 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:25.039 The smaller companies are just going to pay for what 793 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.480 they need period the end. But the bigger companies, you know, 794 00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:32.480 the fortune five hundred companies, the companies with you know, 795 00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:35.320 five hundred plus employees, where it's it's more than just 796 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:38.320 a tiny line item. You know, eighty percent of that 797 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.719 tax break went away. You know, yeah, I'll get twenty 798 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.239 another twenty percent of it next year. But I think 799 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:50.519 that affected things too. And then yeah, that the other 800 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.960 thing is is that I think there were enough senior 801 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:55.639 developers to cover a lot of the work, and so 802 00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.480 hiring junior developers just got harder. And with the economy 803 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:03.119 softening and salary softening, you could hire more developer for 804 00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.639 less money, right because if you're out of work and 805 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.360 you're out of work for six months, you know what 806 00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.440 you're worth, but you may just take what you can get. 807 00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.840 So I think there are a lot of things that 808 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.599 go into this outside of just supply and demand, because 809 00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.320 at the end of the day, more developers just means 810 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.320 more stuff getting done. So unless you just don't have 811 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:31.079 stuff for people to do, right, well, even that's an 812 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.599 ify statement. You know, there's the whole issue of how 813 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:35.599 good your developers are. 814 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:39.159 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, adding throwing developers at a project 815 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:44.519 doesn't always make it go bettermental Yeah, that's a whole 816 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.480 topic for a different complete episode. 817 00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.440 But yeah, my point is is that there's economics that 818 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:54.719 come into play. There is the supply and demand issue. 819 00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:56.800 I think that's part of it. There's the skill level 820 00:41:56.840 --> 00:41:59.800 of people. There's what people are willing to accept because 821 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.440 job market isn't as good anyway. There's a lot there, I. 822 00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:07.280 Mean, any any you know, my degree was economics in college, 823 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:09.079 and I say this, you know, way back a while 824 00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:11.119 and spent a lot of times that I studied it. 825 00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:13.920 But I remember a lot of the basics. And if 826 00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.599 you think about you know, the dot com bust, you know, 827 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.760 late nineties, early two thousand, uh, this is sort of 828 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.000 the same thing where everybody jumps in. You got a 829 00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:26.280 whole bunch of supply, right, and a lot of stuff 830 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.639 just doesn't belong. Yeah, you know, shouldn't be there. You 831 00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:31.800 had how many thinking back to the dot com era, 832 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.960 of how many different websites came up and they'd get 833 00:42:33.960 -->

00:42:36.119 a bunch of VC money or something like that. No 834 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:37.239 business plans like. 835 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:38.280 Oh this is dot com. 836 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.320 Hey, yeah, it's a website. Let's do it, because that's 837 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:41.079 the way to get round. 838 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.039 My point is is that it's not because we had 839 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:48.440 too much internet or too much software. My My point 840 00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.519 is is that eventually people figured out that they weren't 841 00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:57.639 getting the ROI and they stopped or right. The other 842 00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.440 part of it was was that the economy would slow down, 843 00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:03.599 because it does that periodically, and then people start looking 844 00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.119 at Okay, well what do I actually need and then 845 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:11.760 they cut the rest. But I think it's driven more 846 00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:14.280 by what what I what I can pay for, as 847 00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.880 opposed to I have too much software development going on, 848 00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:20.599 or I have too many things here in my warehouse. 849 00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:28.199 Right, so right, yeah, I mean, you know, going back 850 00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:29.760 to the boot camps, what I was saying, you know, 851 00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:32.559 there was too much there's you know, it's just you know, 852 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:34.199 get him out the door, get him at the door. 853 00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:35.960 Whether or not they're really good for me is to 854 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.360 be seen. And then you start to realize, okay, there's 855 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.039 no room for all this, or we actually need qualified people, 856 00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:43.239 and so you know there's a slow down. All the 857 00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:46.159 fat gets trimmed and yep, you know that's how it works. 858 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.440 Yeah, And I think that was really I think that 859 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:51.760 was more of a supply and demand issue just that 860 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.440 not necessarily on the why people are or aren't hiring 861 00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:58.960 boot camp grads, but on the other end, that's why 862 00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:03.559 the boot camps is because there wasn't enough demand to 863 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:07.960 soak up all the supply yep, And so people were 864 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.000 graduating from boot camps. And then word kind of started 865 00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:13.800 to get around, Hey, you go through the boot camp, 866 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:16.239 you spend twelve grand and you still don't have a job. 867 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:23.920 Yeah, so yeah, those those weren't cheap. I remember I 868 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.920 looked years ago. I was looking into one. It was 869 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.559

a boot camp that would have been I think it 870 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:33.719 was on Microsoft Development stuff if I remember it. And 871 00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:35.760 I was seriously consider it because I was looking at, 872 00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:39.400 you know, just to educate myself, get something maybe more 873 00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.679 formal and just self education. But I was like blown 874 00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:44.480 away by how much it would cost, how much time 875 00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.119 it would take, because like, yeah, I can't take time 876 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:48.360 off from an actual job and do this full time 877 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.960 and got to support a family. 878 00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.000 You know. So yeah, when my oldest was in high school, 879 00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:56.039 I was looking at possibly because he was like, I 880 00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.119 want to be video game developer, blah blah blah, blah, 881 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:00.400 And I was like, well, maybe I'll just put you 882 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:02.960 through a programming boot camp, even if it's not game development, right, 883 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.480 maybe it's React or something. Right, you can get enough 884 00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:10.239 programming experience to where then you can say, Okay, now 885 00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:11.719 I'm going to take the skills that I have in 886 00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:13.360 this area and I'm going to apply a lot of 887 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.039 them over here to game development. But I mean the 888 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:22.679 costs and everything, we're just you know, yeah, a lot 889 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.639 of money. But on the other end, I'm also and 890 00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:27.800 I've talked to a whole bunch of people that are 891 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.800 now not convinced that college is necessarily the way to 892 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.159 go either. And so I don't know for. 893 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.000 Web development, I mean web development or just development in general. 894 00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:41.039 Well not just development, but a lot of other fields too. 895 00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:46.360 Yeah, I mean the computer science stuff. 896 00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:48.880 I've heard a lot of people who can't. 897 00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:52.119 But well, even then, a lot of the stuff you 898 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.679 studying there is an applicable, you know, to day to 899 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.519 day web development. It's a lot of old schools stuff. 900 00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:01.559 And you know, I know, so the environment I work 901 00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:06.320 in is is networking, you know, internet networking type of stuff, 902 00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.079 and we deal a lot with the university community and 903 00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:12.679 of a number of our employees have come from universities 904 00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.280 and they went

through CIS degrees, but a lot of 905 00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:17.280 what they teach their is applicable to what they're doing 906 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.000 in terms of networking hardware and software and stuff like that. 907 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.480 Right, And you know a lot of your performance OfTI 908 00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:27.480 and algorithms and that all plays in space. 909 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.920 Yeah, but a lot of that doesn't necessarily play in 910 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:33.320 in you know, at least in the web dev world. 911 00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:39.239 And and so that's why you know it doesn't you know, 912 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:40.599 it used to be you went to college just to 913 00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:42.719 say I got to college degree. But at the same time, 914 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:46.719 you want your college to be somewhat you know, give 915 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:50.320 you tools to actually get a job and performing, you know, 916 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:51.360 in the industry. 917 00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:52.840 That's why you're going. 918 00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:57.079 So yeah, I mean there's there's a number of I mean, 919 00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:58.239 I can think off the top of my head, a 920 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.119 number of you know, web developers for developers that never 921 00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:02.679 had any type of college to agree with that, But 922 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.800 they're very good at what they did, and you know, 923 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:07.719 like me, they're self taught. You know, they learned on 924 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.400 their own just by doing and doing projects and working 925 00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:15.639 and being a junior for a while, right and working 926 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:17.519 up to you got the experience to be a senior. 927 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:21.440 Well, I have a degree in computer engineering, and in 928 00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:23.920 a lot of ways, I still consider myself self taught. 929 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.719 I mean, I graduated, I got a job working, and 930 00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:31.800 I wound up running the tech support team at the 931 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.559 company I was working at the startup, and then I 932 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:36.800 just kind of picked up some other stuff and was 933 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.199 scrappy working on it in rails, and that's how I 934 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:43.400 got started. And so you know, I kind of skunk 935 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.039 works my way into into rails and into programming, even 936 00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.119 though I had learned a lot of programming stuff and 937 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.480 taking classes at the university. I don't think you really 938 00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:56.960 get a feel for what software development really looks and 939 00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.800 feels like until you get out there in the real 940 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.920 world world, and then you're going, yep, oh, these are 941 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.480 the things I care about, These are the things that matter, 942 00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:07.280 These are the things that are going to move the needle, 943 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.639 and you know, and so then you wind up, Yeah, 944 00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.119 you wind up self teaching anyway to a certain level. 945 00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:14.000 Everybody does. 946 00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.239 Yeah, for sure, there's I mean, and that's true with 947 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.760 any industry or any topic. You know, you can learn 948 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.320 about it and do test projects and stuff like that 949 00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.199 in school, but once you it's not until you get 950 00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:32.199 in the real world and realize that. You know, there's 951 00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:34.079 so many different things to work with with any type 952 00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.960 of software platform, whether you're an agency who's creating, you know, 953 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:40.559 websites for customers, or if you're on the product side, 954 00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:42.440 where you have a product that you've built and you 955 00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:46.880 maintain and customers pay you to use. There's so much 956 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.159 stuff that, whether it's project management stuff, whether it's stay 957 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.880 to day infrastructure stuff, that you're just not going to 958 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.719 see in an educational environment unless you get somebody maybe 959 00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:58.280 who's been out in the real world and done this 960 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:00.960 stuff and then comes back in and teaches and says, 961 00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.559 he this is what it's really like. Those are the 962 00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:03.239 best teachers. 963 00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:04.639 Yeah, that's all right. 964 00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:05.800 I take that back to some of the best. 965 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.960 I had a professor at I had a couple of 966 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:13.920 professors at BYU that were they were those guys, right, 967 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:18.679 And so one of them had written basically a variant 968 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.119 of DOS called p DOS because his name was Paul. 969 00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.559 It was actually my neighbor growing up too. He was 970 00:49:23.639 --> 00:49:27.000 my bishop and my lds ward at church. P Dos 971 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:29.800 because his name was Paul. And then one of the 972 00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.280 other guys and he was the one that taught us about, 973 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.360 you know, here's how development teams work and stuff like that, 974 00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.840 because he'd worked in the industry too, and so he 975 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.920 had a class that was basically, hey, here's your reality check, right,

976 00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:46.480 here's here's how this stuff actually works. P dos. 977 00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:48.679 It reminds me of Tanner Lindley and tan say, yeah, 978 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:51.000 you know, we just talked to him a few weeks ago. 979 00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:59.360 Yeah. Anyway, it's it's it's interesting stuff for sure. Yeah, 980 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:00.840 I don't I know that you pick a lot of 981 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.519 that up as you go. Anyway, it's been about an hour. 982 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.159 It's funny because we were going to talk about a 983 00:50:06.199 --> 00:50:08.000 couple of topics and we just talked about this one. 984 00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:09.880 But I'm hoping that this kind of gives some people 985 00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:12.079 some ideas. I don't know if you have any actionable 986 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:17.000 stuff you want to give people on this in terms 987 00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:20.639 in terms of following at finding a job or hiring 988 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:21.760 or anything like that. 989 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:25.400 You know, the one thing I always hear, and this 990 00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:28.159 is probably a little more prevalent in the design world 991 00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:31.239 than it is the coding world, being able to show 992 00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:34.000 something you've actually done versus saying what you can do. 993 00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:37.159 You know, for a design person, front end, you know 994 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.719 them er whatever term you want to use, the ones 995 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:42.119 that make it look really good. I'm a portfolio, and 996 00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.559 a really good portfolio is probably something you want to have, 997 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:50.719 you know. Examples, when I was going through my development interviews, 998 00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:54.079 I had very specific projects that I could talk about, 999 00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.920 things that I had done, whether it was and some 1000 00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:00.559 of them were ones where I could straight that the 1001 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:05.519 software I had generated had saved incredible amounts of time 1002 00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.079 for the end users, you know, because that's what they 1003 00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.119 end up They want to be more efficient. That's the 1004 00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:10.559 whole point of having a lot of the tools that 1005 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:12.079 I have anyways to be able to do your job 1006 00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:14.760 more efficiently. And so I had projects where I could say, 1007 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:21.000 for instance, doing estimation for building certain types of industrial projects, 1008 00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:24.800 I had taken what I had done had helped a 1009 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.880 company go from a three day estimation with crazy Excel 1010 00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.840 spreadsheets to three hours

right, or an application I used 1011 00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:36.199 created with view and in nursery and Larravel helped a 1012 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:41.400 nonprofit organization go from literally multiple volunteers manual work in 1013 00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:45.239 terms of managing membership to being almost completely automated and 1014 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:48.159 saving just hundreds of hours of volunteer time. So the 1015 00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.840 point of what I'm saying is just being able to demonstrate, yes, 1016 00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:54.559 using these tools, this is what I have done, and 1017 00:51:54.639 --> 00:52:01.360 this is how effective it's been in and that because 1018 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:04.920 what you want to convey to them, you know, and 1019 00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:08.280 adders that I always use is that I want to 1020 00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.519 make my job is to make my boss's job easier. Yeah, 1021 00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:13.760 you know, they don't have to worry about me. They 1022 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:15.400 know that I can jump in and do the job 1023 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:18.800 and get it done right, and so I want to demonstrate. 1024 00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:20.920 And this is the same in the fire service as well. 1025 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:23.320 You know, you want to demonstrate that you can come 1026 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:24.960 in and fit in and jump in and do the 1027 00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:27.320 job and you can rely on to do it. So 1028 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:32.320 that's probably the best advice you know that that I 1029 00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:35.719 can I would give to somebody who's who's job hunting. 1030 00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:39.679 Yeah, I agree a lot of that. You know, you're 1031 00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:42.360 talking about what you've actually done. If if you don't 1032 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.840 have that kind of work experience, then start a side 1033 00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:49.320 project and go work on that. Yep, exactly, And I 1034 00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:52.119 highly highly recommend that. The other thing that I recommend 1035 00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:54.559 is that you know, go out into the community, you know, 1036 00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:57.519 local meetups, find a conference to attend something like that, 1037 00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:01.639 and just you know, stay up breast of what people 1038 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:05.000 are working on learning putting out there so that you 1039 00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:08.480 know the kinds of things that you maybe need to demonstrate, 1040 00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.559 so that you are working on things that are relevant 1041 00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:12.400 to what people are doing. 1042 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:20.840 So, yeah, anybody can talk about what you could do 1043 00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:23.480 being able to talk about this is what I did do. 1044 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:25.800 Is it's going to win every time? 1045 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.039 Yeah, all right, well, let's go ahead and do picks 1046 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.639 and then wrap up. Do you want to go first? 1047 00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:35.760 Sure, So before I get to the high point of 1048 00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.159 every episode, which is the dad jokes of the week, 1049 00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:41.159 I'm going to do I'll do an unpicked sort of 1050 00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:44.880 and you'll understand it in a minute. So I've been 1051 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:47.159 over the past few months. I've done a decent amount 1052 00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.559 of flying, and so what I usually like to do, 1053 00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:52.760 at least on Alaska is hook on my computer, the 1054 00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:54.639 Wi Fi and they have a bunch of movies that 1055 00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:57.719 you can watch, and so I've watched some pretty good 1056 00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:02.159 movies over the time time. You know, there's like One Life, 1057 00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:04.280 which is what I talked about, the Anthony Hopkins ones 1058 00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:08.119 about Nicholas Winton and the Accountant. I liked a lot 1059 00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:11.639 with Ben Affleck, but the unpick I picked one is like, 1060 00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:13.360 you know, I've heard about this movie and I'm gonna 1061 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:16.519 watch it, and it's an old one of I think 1062 00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:19.159 it's one of Jackie Chan's first movies. And it's called 1063 00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:21.800 Rumble in the bron Rumble in the Bronx because I've 1064 00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:23.360 seen some of the other ones. So if you think 1065 00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:25.480 some of the more one once he's more well known for, 1066 00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:29.079 like Rush Hour with Chris Tucker, and I can remember 1067 00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:30.559 one of the first ones I saw of his in 1068 00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.800 the theater was with Owen Wilson as Shanghai Knia had 1069 00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:38.320 Lucy Lou. There's one scene in there that had me 1070 00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.719 just rolling the eyes laughing so hard while we were 1071 00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:42.360 in the theater and me and this other lady were 1072 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:44.559 just dying laughing at this one scene where he wakes 1073 00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.440 up in this teepee. You got to see it to 1074 00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:48.840 understand it so funny. But I went back and watched 1075 00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:51.039 this one. This had to be one of the worst 1076 00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.840 movies I've ever seen it. 1077 00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:56.960 It was so bad. It had to be. 1078 00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:58.239 I don't I can't remember what year it is. 1079 00:54:58.239 --> 00:54:58.880 I have to look it up. 1080 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.719 It's got to be early and there's a decent amount 1081 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:04.679 of martial arts center, but just

the editing, the plot line, 1082 00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:09.480 it's just so poorly done. And the thing that amazed 1083 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:12.559 me about it is the complete amount of destruction of 1084 00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:15.519 property that happens in this movie, whether it's buildings, whether 1085 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:18.519 it's vehicles, whether it's boats. You know, in the end, 1086 00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:22.199 there's this whole jet boat is the kind that have 1087 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.800 the big use inflatable Rubbert. You know, they're driving around 1088 00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:28.079 New York on the harbors for tours and stuff, and 1089 00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:30.039 he's driving it on the beach and he's driving on 1090 00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:32.360 those golf course and running over the bad guy at 1091 00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:36.440 the very end, and I was like, I forced myself 1092 00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:37.599 to watch. At the end, I was like, all right, 1093 00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.000 I got this far, I might as well watch it 1094 00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:41.559 to the end. But if you want to see, you know, 1095 00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:45.159 something that's funny just because it's made so badly, then 1096 00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:47.480 Rumble in the Bronx is the one to see. For sure. 1097 00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:48.079 I've heard of it. 1098 00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:50.480 I got, I watched the end, and I got back. 1099 00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:52.480 After I was done, I thought, that's an hour and 1100 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:54.079 a half of my life. I'm never going to get back. 1101 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:56.360 But I was sitting stuck on a plane, so it 1102 00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:57.719 wasn't like I was going to be doing a lot 1103 00:55:57.760 --> 00:55:59.480 of other stuff anyway, Right. 1104 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:00.519 So. 1105 00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:07.360 Dad jokes of the week. So recently, you know I 1106 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.960 like to use I've been using password managers, like one 1107 00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:12.920 password is one we use. Now use it at work too, 1108 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.440 and it's really great. But before that changed all my 1109 00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:20.840 passwords to be the word incorrect. So now when I 1110 00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:22.840 type in the wrong password, the computer tells me that 1111 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:30.039 my password is incorrect. Right, So most people know that 1112 00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:34.280 scuba right, like scuba diving is an acronym for self 1113 00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:39.760 contained underwater breathing apparatus. TUBA is also an acronym that 1114 00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:42.199 stands for terrible underwater breathing apparatus. 1115 00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:44.119 Right. 1116 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:51.840 And then, finally, speaking of startups, I recently opened a 1117 00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:56.719 company selling trampolines that are disguised as prayer mats. Profits 1118 00:56:56.760 --> 00:57:03.000 are going through the roof. That's pr pH et Anyway, 1119 00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:04.519 those are the dad jokes of the week. 1120 00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:10.239 Awesome, all right, I've got some picks. I usually do 1121 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:14.519 a board game pick, but I'm just not my brain's 1122 00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:16.199 not going there right now. I'm trying to think what 1123 00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:26.119 I've played lately that I don't know. I guess I'll 1124 00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:32.119 pick Hanabi. I've probably picked this before. It's been quite 1125 00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:35.719 a long time, but this game has been around forever. 1126 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:42.360 I think hanabi means fireworks in Japanese. And anyway, you 1127 00:57:42.519 --> 00:57:45.760 play your cards. You play a hand of cards, and 1128 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.199 you have your cards facing away from you, and so 1129 00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:53.079 then you can give clues to the other players because 1130 00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:54.920 they can all see your cards. So when it's your turn, 1131 00:57:55.800 --> 00:57:57.840 you can you can give a clue and you can 1132 00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:01.119 say you have you know, two whites, and so then 1133 00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:02.880 you tell them which ones are white, or you have 1134 00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:05.119 two fours, and so you can tell them which ones 1135 00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:08.800 are fours. Right, And you're trying to get five stacks 1136 00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.880 of cards that are all the same color, starting at 1137 00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:15.840 one and going up to five, and I think there 1138 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:19.239 are three ones, two of each of two, three and 1139 00:58:19.400 --> 00:58:21.880 four and then one five of each color. And you 1140 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.719 can you can on your room you can clue somebody else, 1141 00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:28.320 and I believe you use little chips to indicate you 1142 00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:30.880 know how close you are to blowing up, or you 1143 00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.400 can get rid of a card out of your hand, 1144 00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:36.280 and if you get rid of the five, you lose 1145 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:42.159 because you can't. Right. So anyway, fun game. It's really simple, 1146 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.280 and so if you're looking for a fun game that 1147 00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:47.119 you can play with folks. That's a little bit of 1148 00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:48.559 a thinker because you have to keep track of what 1149 00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:50.559 your cards are and I usually wind up turning them 1150 00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.599 different ways or things like that, so I know which 1151 00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:55.519 ones are which. It's a fun game. So Hanabi and 1152 00:58:55.639 --> 00:58:58.360 then my wife and I went to the movies yesterday 1153

00:58:58.639 --> 00:59:00.519 and we went and saw a movie called Truth and 1154 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:03.400 Treason is put out by Angel Studios. 1155 00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.119 Oh yeah, and they got some good stuff. Yeah. 1156 00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:14.480 So it's about a young man who his friend who's 1157 00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:19.480 a Jew, gets picked up by the SS and you know, 1158 00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:23.159 oh so it's World War it's disappeared, and it's interesting 1159 00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:25.719 because like all the boys in it, they're all from 1160 00:59:26.199 --> 00:59:29.000 a Latter Day Saint congregation, So, you know, a little 1161 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:31.320 bit of something that I identify with there. But it's 1162 00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:32.920 not a major part of the story. So if you 1163 00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.400 don't understand LDS culture, you'll still get it. Just find 1164 00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:40.519 what's going on in the the movie. But anyway, so 1165 00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:44.119 he kind of gets radicalized, so to speak, against the 1166 00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:48.239 Nazi government, and so he starts putting flyers out all 1167 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:52.119 over Hamburg talking about the evils of the Nazi regime. 1168 00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:57.000 And so it's kind of his story of him doing 1169 00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:01.639 this and trying not to get caught and what happens there. 1170 01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:04.480 I won't spoil it. It's you could probably guess how 1171 01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:08.320 it goes. But anyway, it's just interesting because the kind 1172 01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:13.119 of major point was you have to stand up for truth, right, 1173 01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:18.320 even if it costs you your life. And so anyway, 1174 01:00:18.559 --> 01:00:23.639 terrific message, fascinating story. And yeah, at the end of 1175 01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:26.559 the movie, right, they have kind of the picture of 1176 01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:28.639 the actor and then the picture of the actual person, 1177 01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:31.159 and this person was blah blahlah, don't know, this is 1178 01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:35.119 what happened to these people. And uh, it's interesting because 1179 01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:40.599 the main character was the youngest person who was convicted 1180 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:45.559 of trees and all this stuff against the Nazis. So anyway, yeah, 1181 01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:47.800 and it turns out his friend in the captions at 1182 01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:49.440 the end you find out his friend was actually taken 1183 01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:51.239 to Auschwitz and died there. 1184 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:57.599 So anyway, now, have you seen speaking of Angel Studios, 1185 01:00:57.639 --> 01:00:59.159 have you seen The Last Road? 1186 01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:02.079 Yes? Pretty much? 1187 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:04.760 Pretty I love Neil mcgonnough, Yeah, I love nearly really good.

1188 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.320 He's done some really good stuff. 1189 01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.880 Yeah, it's boy. That one is uh, how do I 1190 01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:13.920 put it? Like? It is just an intense movie. It's 1191 01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.519 I don't know, When I say that, I don't mean like, 1192 01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:20.800 you know, because you think like the action flicks, right, 1193 01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:23.599 and so you know somebody's always running into danger blah 1194 01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:25.760 blah blah. It's not that kind of intense. I mean 1195 01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:28.440 you're you're kind of scared for Neil McDonough's character because 1196 01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:32.119 he's old and he's writing video. Right, It's like, it's 1197 01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:35.280 like this guy's going to kill hold on. 1198 01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.400 Let's uh, let's define old here. He's if I read 1199 01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.840 the movie description, he's fifty, so. 1200 01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:45.199 He's relatively old to be writing a relatively old thank you. 1201 01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:46.280 Let's clarify that. 1202 01:01:46.519 --> 01:01:52.159 Yeah, you right, he's he's older than I am, but 1203 01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:56.199 you know he's old enough to where writing in a rodeo. 1204 01:01:56.320 --> 01:02:00.119 You're just like, right, and the characters had like he 1205 01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:03.639 broke his back and that's why he wasn't writing rodeo, right, 1206 01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:06.400 and so it's like you're going to kill yourself doing this. 1207 01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:12.119 Yeah, well it was it his son or something grandson. 1208 01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:14.360 Of a brain tumor. And so he's he's writing in 1209 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:16.599 the rodeo to try and get the money he needs 1210 01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:19.440 to pay for the prize money first for the true treatment. 1211 01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:23.039 And yeah, it's a terrific movie. I really really liked it. 1212 01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:26.599 Yeah, Angel Studios they have some I saw an interview 1213 01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:29.639 with one of those people on Mike Mike row interview 1214 01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:32.760 on his podcast. And do you talk about some of 1215 01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:36.400 the movies that they've done. Yeah, I think if I 1216 01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:38.400 remember correctly, did they Were they the same people that 1217 01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:42.119 didn't Napoleon Dynamite? Know? No, that was a different group. 1218 01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:45.599 Okay, If it was the same people Napoleon Dynamite was 1219 01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:48.480 before Angel Studios? Was Angel there right right? 1220 01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:50.599 Right? But it's the same people not in that Angel Studio, 1221 01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:54.559 I don't know. Yeah, them, and they also did maybe 1222 01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:56.519 I'm thinking another group because that same group also did 1223 01:02:56.559 --> 01:02:58.920 the Pooperie commercials, which to this day are some of 1224 01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:00.920 the best, most playerousmmercials I've ever seen. 1225 01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.239 Yeah, the Harmon Brothers. Did I think the Poopoi commercials? 1226 01:03:05.800 --> 01:03:06.920 Okay, that might be who it was. 1227 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:10.760 And I don't know. It's funny because both the Harmon 1228 01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:19.400 Brothers and and Angel Studios or both they're both Utah companies. 1229 01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:21.239 They're both here right right exactly. 1230 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:22.599 Maybe that's why I'm getting mixed up. 1231 01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.679 And I don't know if they're closely connected or not. 1232 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:33.079 But anyway, yeah, I don't know for sure what if 1233 01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:36.360 Napoleon Dynamite was produced by them or not, or if 1234 01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:37.159 it was somebody else. 1235 01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:40.800 But anyway, all those Utah people they look like, Yeah, 1236 01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:44.559 but that that was where John Header got his big start. 1237 01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:51.360 But and it has a lot of the Utah Idaho 1238 01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:54.920 culture stuff in it, Like it's it's funny anyway, but 1239 01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:58.360 if you've lived here for a long time, you're just 1240 01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:00.719 like there's a lot of inside culture her stuff in it. 1241 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.519 Oh yeah, my son, he's fourteen, and he just saw 1242 01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:10.440 a Napoleon Dynamite like this past week and he hadn't 1243 01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:12.280 seen it before. And I was like, I told him 1244 01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:16.079 I remember a vote for Pedro, and apparently he wants 1245 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:17.800 He's fourteen, and my wife still wants to go out 1246 01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:20.960 for Halloween, but he wants to go Napoleon's brother, the 1247 01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:24.119 one that wants to be the pro wrestler. That's a 1248 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:26.199 Halloween costume. So I'm not sure I was going to 1249 01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:28.679 pull that off, but looking forward to that. 1250 01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:32.960 Yeah, Wikipedia says that it was Jared Hess and John 1251 01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:34.960 Header and they were both BYU. 1252 01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:37.119 Shams, Right I remember that much? 1253 01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:45.960 They yeah? So so alrighty anyway, so yeah, so those 1254 01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:47.599 are my picks I, we'll go ahead and wrap it 1255 01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:50.880 up until next time folks max out.