บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep16 - Authenticity Isn’t Enough: What Makes a Great Leader with Ken Sher

in maybe every other week and there was a lot of pushback against that. And then after COVID, a lot of people loosened up from that perspective. Now you're Ken Sher: Hmm. Keith Willis: seeing a lot of return to office edicts. I just want to know what your thoughts are around that and how that relates to trust or lack of trust from leaders to people on their teams. Ken Sher: Yeah, I'm not a big fan of it, of forcing people back to work. Although I will say, I think an ideal is if you can have a hybrid situation. And I like the three and two, three at home, two in the office if possible. And I think the reason why leaders don't do that is because there is a lack of trust. They don't feel like people are going to get things done, that they're going to collaborate as well as they can if they're in person. They feel like they miss those hallway conversations. And, you know, I think you could certainly see there, are differences, but I, I also think that's a little lazy. I think it's lazy to say the only way we could have good teams and good collaboration is if we're all in the same place all the time. and I think in today's world, you know, it's funny back in the day when millennials were the big generation and everybody would say, they only want. Everybody gets a trophy and they want to be recognized for their work and they want to have their family time and home time. I think when you look back on it, that's probably not a bad way to live. And I think that's the way people Keith Willis: Hehehehehe Ken Sher: want to live today. And if you want to bring the best people and keep the best people to your company, I think you have to kind of meet them halfway and give them what they need in order to get what you need as a leader. Keith Willis: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that the return to work edicts have been, I won't say necessarily difficult. I think people have gone back to that, but it does speak to trust and how well do you manage? How do you communicate? How do you make up for some of the communication that doesn't necessarily take place? And I think perfect example is you spoke about those hallway conversations. Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: You know what? The big things that when we talk about when we talk about things like collaboration, talk about in your experience that cross-functional alignment. It's something a lot of companies talk about. What does it look like when it's working? Ken Sher: Yeah, well, I think that there's something called the theory of self-determination. Are you familiar with that at all, Keith? Okay. Keith Willis: I'm not actually, break that down a little bit. Ken Sher: Well, what it says is the theory of self-determination says that it's very difficult to motivate people, that you can short-term. I'll give you an incentive if you get this done and where you hit a sales number or whatever. But to really have long-term, you can't motivate people long-term. but you can, people are self-motivated. We're all self-motivated. Just getting out of bed in the morning and getting to work, even if you're not good at your job, you're motivated to do that. So the Keith Willis: Yeah. Ken Sher: idea of the theory of self-determination is to create a motivational environment. And there are three human needs that need to be addressed in order to do that. The first one is to be autonomous. We all have this feeling that we want to be in control of our lives to some extent. I mean, we all have bosses or... spouses or partners who tell us what to do on occasion. But we really want to know that we can do things the way we want to do them, the way we think they need to be done. So I think leaders that give their team, still they're going to coach them and give them feedback, but allow them to do their jobs. That's important. The second human need that we all have is a feeling that we're part of something bigger than ourselves. And this is where I think the main part of the answer to your question is. In order to feel that way, you have to feel like you know what's going on around you, that by being engaged cross-functionally, you understand the business as a whole, not just your little area of work. And when you understand that, it gives you opportunity to be more innovative, more creative, and to get things more productive. And then the third human need is competence. In other words, I want to know I want to be confident that I know how to do my job. And if I don't, I want to know I can get the training or the coaching to get there. So if you affect those three human needs, you create a a motivational environment where people are self motivated. And then getting back to your question, that feeling of being part of something bigger than yourself. I think that requires cross-functional collaboration. Keith Willis: So how do you get to that, you know, especially within a lot of organizations that are doing matrix teams where the person you're working with may not necessarily be there, be your leader. So you may not be having Ken Sher: Mm. Keith Willis: one-on-ones with them, staff meetings. Obviously you'll have team meetings and those types of things to drive the project forward or whatever you're working on. But how does that work? What do you think are some best practices that people that are running these matrix teams or in charge of running these matrix teams can do to help build that? alignment. Ken Sher: Yeah, yeah, and that is difficult. Well, I think, though, I think, again, it still comes back to trust. I think that, you know, the days of leaders being that all-knowing, totally directive, Jack Welch type of leader back from the days of Chrysler, where I'm the boss, I tell you what to do and you do it, it's gone. But if you can build that trust, and that will lead to that kind of collaboration. You know, you mentioned that I wrote the book, What's Trust Got to Do With It? And trust I use as an acronym. And I think in working cross-functionally, if you are, as

the acronym goes, the T first stands for transparency, sharing as much information as you can. So that person can be autonomous by the way, but so they can take advantage of opportunities and handle challenges on their own. If you make it very clear here are the results we're looking for and then how we're going to get there. if you understand that's the U of the trust model, understand where is this person coming from and where do they want to go? What do they want to get out of doing this project and helping them achieve that? the S in trust model, simplicity, making sher that person is focused on the true priorities and not shooting all over the place. And then the T is teams and trust. And that is, just again, feeling like you're part of something bigger than yourself. And I think if a leader, even without having direct supervisory role over somebody, approaches a cross-functional project like that, or a matrix team like that, I think they'll see a lot of success. Keith Willis: In your experience, Ken, where do people struggle most with that trust equation that you utilize? Ken Sher: Hmm. I think, I think there are two things. think one would be transparency. I think for some reason, leaders don't want to share all the information that they can with somebody. Keith Willis: hahahaha Ken Sher: and I don't, I don't understand that. mean, certainly there's proprietary information, but you trust your people. You've got to have some level of trust to be able to give them info that they're not going to share, you know, inappropriately. so I think just letting go, giving all the information you can. And then I think the you, the understanding, you know, a lot of times I'll ask my clients, so what are the aspirations of that person? And they'll say, well, I don't know. I mean, I think they want, I think they want to do more. Well, maybe you need to dig into that a little bit because when you know what someone's goals are, what they want out of life, what's impacting them, maybe even in their personal life, as a leader, you'll be able to find the ways to create that environment where they will be successful. So I think letting go of information and letting people do their job, the transparency part, and then understanding what each individual on your team needs and wants, and then helping them get there within their job scope. Keith Willis: I think that makes sense, Ken. I think in my perspective, one of the reasons why managers struggle with transparency is they're hit with so much information. Sometimes it's difficult to figure out what information I should keep, what information I should share. And so sometimes Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: they just default to, I'm not going to share any information at all. Any advice there? Ken Sher: I think you're right. that's actually why when you asked me that question, I was also thinking of the S of the trust model, which is simplicity, is, just give it, maybe you do. Give them the information they need, don't give them any more, you know, what they need. But also the S is about prioritizing, you know, as well as I do. I got 100 emails, I've got this demand, this administrative demand, that administrative demand. Keith Willis: Yeah. Ken Sher: I got to put together a presentation for leadership about this project I'm working on. I Keith Willis: Cheers. Ken Sher: think leaders, and I know it's hard, you and I struggle with that at J &J Keith Willis: Well yeah. Ken Sher: and at BMS. We need to get this work done. The other stuff's important, but this is the priority. I think trying to help the team do that and trying to protect the team from other stuff getting in their way is important also. Keith Willis: Yeah, one of the challenges that people have nowadays is there's so much coming at them with AI Ken Sher: Hmm. Keith Willis: technology, those type of things. I find that folks don't have thinking time, you know, meeting with clients, having conversations with them. Sometimes that Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: meeting is the only time they've had an opportunity to think through things. So clearly that Ken Sher: Yeah. Keith Willis: is a challenge. What's your experience or what have you seen when it comes to managers doing effective coaching? I've always believed that coaching is a fundamental skill, but something that's important in understanding what people want to do next. Ken Sher: Yeah, you know, I just read an article, I think it was in the Harvard Business Review today, about managers taking the time, about managers as they go higher up in an organization, they get less and less training. And I think, you you go from being an individual contributor in some companies and pharma, think is pretty good at this. They train their people how to go from a rep to a manager. But when you go from a manager to a director, a director to a VP, there's not a lot. I remember as a region business director thinking, like what, all of a sudden, poof, you're a region business director. And there are different Keith Willis: Hehehehehe Ken Sher: things you need to know. So I think it behooves a company to take the time to develop their leaders, to be good leaders. I personally believe that every leader should carve out time, whether it's every week or at minimum every two weeks to take a 30 minute block of time, have a one-on-one meeting with their team. It's not necessarily to talk about what's going on with this project or that project, but it's more so how are you doing? How, you know, you're working on developing your leadership skills and your problem solving. How is that going? What can I do to help you in those areas? How's your life in general? You know, it's your personal Keith Willis: Mm-hmm. Ken Sher: life. You share with me what you want, but is there anything that I need to know so that I can help you get to where you want to get to. And I think those 30 minute meetings, twice a month even, are really good places to take that deep breath and do

that thinking that you talked about to help people not on a specific project, but just on their overall development and their overall business. Keith Willis: Yeah, the Gallup data is compelling. I know there's other data out there and suggests that you do 30, at least, you know, one 101 a week. And I believe it's Marcus Buckingham that says even just 15 minutes weekly interaction Ken Sher: me. Keith Willis: with a direct report has a significant impact on their performance. So it doesn't Ken Sher: Yeah Keith Willis: necessarily need to be a lot of time. Ken Sher: I agree, but you know, probably Keith, as well as I do, people will say, you know, I talk to them every day. Every day we talk like five times a day. Keith Willis: He's like, I'm not gonna it. Ken Sher: And yeah, but you're not talking about development. You're talking about a project or something they're working on. And it's, it's different, but, I always would say once a week, but you just get so much pushback. I'm so busy. I don't have time for, for that. And it's an important time to make for your team. Keith Willis: I remember when I did my first 101, because I was doing that walk around management and I figured, I talk to my direct reports all the time. I had my first 101, we scheduled it for half an hour. It was well over an hour. I remember Ken Sher: Hahaha. Keith Willis: thinking, oh my goodness, what have I been missing? And so that reinforced Ken Sher: Yeah. Keith Willis: the importance of doing 101s that even when you're walking around. that people Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: really want your undivided time. then over time, what I found is that people would wait. They knew they would have that one-on-one with you, that Ken Sher: I'm. Keith Willis: they would save their conversation. So it would free up some of that time where you're walking around having those conversations because they would have your undivided attention. I think one Ken Sher: Yeah. Keith Willis: of the challenges people also have, especially managers, people travel a lot and there's Ken Sher: Mmm, yeah. Keith Willis: a tendency not to do the one-on-ones. But with Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: all the technology, phones, Zoom, Teams, you do have the ability to still do those one-on-ones and stay on track because you can be out of town for two or three weeks and then all of a sudden you have no idea what's going on. Ken Sher: Yeah, and that's a great point, Keith. And I love the point too about when you have them, it will free up more time because people know, I'm to be seeing Keith tomorrow. I can bring it up then. But I would also say what I advise my clients to do is make it a recurring meeting. Put it on your calendar. It's every week or every two weeks. And guard that time as its most important time of your week or day. And you're not going to make them all. But if you make 80 % of them, that's gonna be a very productive use of your time. But if you don't put it on your calendar, then every week it's gonna be an effort and you're gonna, I didn't get to it this week, I'll do it next week. And then before you know it, the year's over. Keith Willis: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Ken Sher: This is. Keith Willis: I make sher I get those one-on-ones on the calendar and you you move them if you have to, but you Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Right. Keith Willis: still, you know, you still make the effort to do them just because that piece of communication is so valuable. Ken Sher: It also sends a message to a teammate that you're important to me. This time is your time and I'm not letting anybody else get into it unless I absolutely have to. And I think that sends an important message too. Keith Willis: Yeah, I agree. You know, it was interesting because when I was a sales manager, I used to always rely upon the day in the field with the representative. And there Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: would be some time when I would just take that off his day on Friday and I would call every one of my reps and even Ken Sher: Hmm. Keith Willis: reps that didn't want to talk to me usually had a question there or wanted something from me. And I used to be surprised. And I look back over that and I said, if I had to do another thing as a sales manager, it would have been to institute. weekly one-on-one with folks, even if I had to rotate the team, know, five and five, know, five one week and five the other week. But that communication Ken Sher: Yeah. Keith Willis: piece is so important when it comes to building Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: trust. Ken Sher: Yeah, I think it's great thought. Keith Willis: So the question here is what's one behavior that you see that immediately builds credibility and then one that destroys it? Ken Sher: from a leadership perspective? Keith Willis: from a leadership perspective. Ken Sher: think, you know, to me, it's the thing that builds the credibility is being able to let go. You know, I think you, it's to me, micromanagement is such a problem. But I think when you give, when you train people properly, when you coach them, when you give them regular feedback, That's gotta be it. You gotta let them do their jobs after that. I think it's easy to say, I trust her, I trust you, but you know, instead of doing it that way, why don't you do it this way? And if you do that all the time, it gets to be a little much. Now that doesn't mean you just let go completely and you never talk to them. Another management approach that drives me nuts is if you don't hear from me, everything's going great. You know that one, right? Keith Willis: Yeah. Ken Sher: But I, so I think just being there and walking the talk, you know, and being there and saying, I'm hiring you for this role. You're going to be up. I expect that you're going to do well. Otherwise I wouldn't hire you. I'm going to help you do six, be successful and then let them do their jobs. If I keep jumping in to tell them how to do it, what to do, et cetera. that kind of blows the credibility. Yeah,

sher. He trusts me. Why doesn't he let me do my job then? So I think that micromanagement comes back to that is what would kill the credibility. And the opposite is just, again, really being authentic in your leadership and letting people know I'm here for you. You know, term servant leadership, I believe in that Keith Willis: Mm-hmm. Ken Sher: approach to leadership. And then to live that and to make sher that you're there for them, you help them get where they want to get to. That's that you, the trust model, understand where they're at. and where they need to get to. And to your point, as you have those more regular one-on-ones also, people probably will open up more to you and you'll learn more about them on a personal level that can help you help them to be more successful. Keith Willis: And I know this might seem like a stupid question. Give a definition of authenticity and what that means, because we hear it a lot. And I'm not sher that managers have an understanding of what we mean when we say be your own authentic self. Ken Sher: Yeah, that's a good point. There are some of those terms we say and just take it for granted that we all define them in the same way. I think being authentic means that what you say, you do. And what you do, you're saying kind of that. being authentic, there are some people that they're their authentic self and they're not very admirable people or people you'd want to lead. Uh, that's, it doesn't necessarily, um, mean you're going to be successful, but I think being authentic in wanting to help your team and the individuals on your team to be as successful as they can be so that the team could be successful so that you could be successful as a leader and then, um, showing them that they're the most important ones in that equation by, um, giving them opportunities, um, by, um, you know, to present maybe or to get more exposure to leadership by recognizing them or getting them recognition by the company. I think when you put out that positive message of, want you to be successful, and then you show them how they can be successful and let them be successful, I think that's authenticity because my message is how I'm acting as well. Keith Willis: Yeah. One thing I thought I have about authenticity is that I always feel like the manager's job is to make that person the best version of themselves. And Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Keith Willis: the other part of that is the manager is going to be their, their best version. And obviously we have things that we don't do well. And part of that at times is apologizing. One of the things Ken Sher: Mmm. Keith Willis: I would tell my folks is I can be overly critical. So if you feel like I'm being over critical, you know, to you, then you need to raise your hand because that's part of my personality. not my intention. at Ken Sher: Right. Keith Willis: times it's, I think part of that authenticity is understanding who you are and how you present yourself. And then giving people the kind of cache to be able to call you on stuff that you know are gaps or challenges that you have. Cause oftentimes leaders want to present themselves as being perfect and none of us are perfect and we all make plenty of mistakes. Ken Sher: Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think similar to that, when I would have team meetings and we'd come up with a plan that I would have to present to the board or to marketing or whoever. And I would say then, look, I need you right now. Is this an idea that's just good in this room or is it something that we really believe is going to work? Because I don't want to be the emperor with no clothes where you people are thinking, this is the stupidest idea I've ever seen. But then if they do say that It is a bad idea. need to do it differently. You've got to, you can't criticize them for that or attack them for that. You know, you've got to let, you know, be again, being authentic. want you to tell me if I'm being too critical or if this is a bad idea. But once you tell me that I can't give you a hard time about it because then it's like, well, that's not very authentic. He doesn't really want to know what. Keith Willis: I want to drill down in something a little bit. We talked earlier about micromanagement. How is that different than holding people accountable? So I have a saying where I say, know, what gets measured gets done. And so there's an accountability piece. at times people mistake accountability with micromanagement. And there definitely is a difference. Can you talk about that a little bit? Ken Sher: Yeah, yeah, I definitely think there is a difference between that. think, you know, micro management again is when you're in everybody's business and they can't do anything without your approval or without, you know, your input. And, and that's bad for both parties, as you know, right, because the leader can't do their job if they're doing their five or 10 member teams jobs too. So that's not good. But I think One way to avoid that, and I bring back to my trust model, is the R, is about results. And I think when you have very clear results, very clear expectations for somebody, then they know where they need to get to. And you don't have to manage them so closely when they know, both agree, this is the goal. Maybe how you get there might not even matter, but if it does and you coach and you give feedback, you're still going to do that along the way. If they know where they need to get to, you don't have to remind them of that every day. You could just let them do it, do what they need to do to get there. Keith Willis: you Ken Sher: So I think setting those clear expectations, being aligned on the results that need to be achieved can allow you to step back and not have to micromanage. Keith Willis: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Ken, tell us a little bit about your practice. We haven't had an opportunity to talk about really what you're doing now. I've kind of jumped around a little bit, so I want to give you an

opportunity to talk a little bit about what you're currently doing. Ken Sher: Well, thanks, Keith. I appreciate that. as you know, we both spent time at J &J. I was 25 years at Johnson & Johnson and a few years at Bristol Myers Squibb. And then I went out on my own about 10 years ago, starting my own coaching practice. And I base it on my time mostly at J &J. I led three different leadership development teams while I was there. So I do executive coaching. I coach people across multiple industries, everywhere from first time manager up to CEO. And I use my trust success model to help them be authentic leaders and develop the relationships they need. The premise of my coaching and my keynote speaking and my book is that trust is the foundation of all great relationships and great relationships are the key to success. So I try to help people be their authentic self, build those trusting relationships and be successful. So that's basically it. Keith Willis: All right, good. So I know as a part of that, you've done a lot of career coaching. Where do you find people struggle? mean, I'm assuming that I could be wrong. I think fundamentally people get, you know, trust is important. But what are the things that you find that you oftentimes have to coach people, especially as they grow up through the ranks where they struggle and what some of the challenges Ken Sher: Mmm. Keith Willis: that they have? Ken Sher: So when they're career coaching class, like looking for the next opportunity. Keith Willis: Yeah, career coaching clients, they're trying to continue to build their career, those type of things. Ken Sher: Yeah, well, I think a lot of that is trusting themselves. When I left J &J, it wasn't under the best of circumstances. A new general manager came into the operating company I was at, and he said, Ken, I've led two training and leadership development teams in my career, and you will never live up to my expectations. I was like, whoa. Well, I have this leadership development program coming up. You might want to attend that one. I didn't actually say that, but he did make me miserable for a few months. thought I could turn him. couldn't. And I got let go. And that was so damaging to my confidence, to my feeling that I was any good. Honestly, it just, and it hits different people in different ways, but I was as low as I could get. And I thought, well, maybe he's right. Maybe I'm not so good. Maybe I haven't contributed as much as I thought I did. And going to look for a new job with that, bouncing around in your head is not a formula for success. So I find the biggest thing with a lot of my clients who are looking for a new opportunity is reminding themselves how good they are, reminding themselves, like, read your resume, believe your resume, look at all these things you've done, remember, like, Mustafa, Keith Willis: Thank Ken Sher: remember who you are. And Keith Willis: Yeah. Ken Sher: that's where it has to start, get your head on straight. And then I also think people do struggle recognizing the results they've delivered, what they've done. I just was doing my job. I didn't do anything special, but I find the more questions I ask, the more I talk to them. I'm whoa, you've done amazing things. And they start to regain their confidence and say, yeah, you know, I have done some good stuff there. So it all starts with the head, I think. And that's a good job. Keith Willis: Yeah, yeah, and that can be it's helping them make that mind shifts, you know thinking differently. Ken Sher: Yeah. You know, one other thing, and I just did a talk the other day and as I was preparing, it struck me like people are freaked out by artificial intelligence. Everything is artificial intelligence and it's, it is everywhere. And as a job seeker, well, certainly it's a employee too, but as a job seeker, you have to be able to communicate some level of comfort with artificial intelligence. But the reality is artificial intelligence has been in the job search forever. We have automated. tracking systems that have been screening resumes back when I was leading J &J sales recruiting 15 years ago. So people get, you know, think about I've got to write my resume for AI. I've got to figure out how to beat the system and all this. It hasn't changed. It's still, it's key Keith Willis: Hmm. Ken Sher: words are important. You need to address things importantly, but it's about what kind of results can you bring to your next opportunity? And you've got to be able to communicate that. in a clear and concise way. Keith Willis: Ken, as you talk a little bit about AI, what are your thoughts about it replacing jobs? I know that's something that I hear within all industries. I know our industry pharma, folks are just, that's something they're concerned about. What's your thoughts? What are your experiences? Ken Sher: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's I would understand. I think to myself, I'm glad I don't have to deal with it now in the Keith Willis: hahahaha Ken Sher: world because I'm sher there will be some jobs lost, but I also think there will be some jobs gained. I'm not sher it's going to be one to one, though. I do think it's going to be a little the job market is going to be tough. But I also think that's why you need to continuously learn. And I don't. I've never been a proponent of, we gotta go back to school and spend thousands and thousands of dollars unless you wanna go for a doctorate or a master's is something that truly will help you. But I think there are certifications you can get. LinkedIn has, I think, like hundreds of courses around AI. And I think it does behoove a person to get comfortable with it because it's not going away. And if you as an individual can show how you could work with AI to... to make both of you more effective, I think that's Keith Willis: 16. Ken Sher: a good part of job security. Keith Willis: Yeah, think one of the challenges with, and I won't even say a challenge, what I would say for people

to their head around, there's certain things that AI can't do, which is to be human. And you talk about your trust component and that's a piece that you just can't replace. If I'm a sales representative, even though AI can give a better answer in some cases or be spot on, it's that relationship and that trust that you have with a clinician and their staff. that helps them say, I have a choice of three or four medications or whatever that's gonna be that they're more likely to listen to what you have to say. It's kind of the difference. It's part of that knowing doing gap. AI knows, but Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Keith Willis: knowing doesn't necessarily make people do. I know I've gotten Ken Sher: Right. Keith Willis: recommendations from AI. I'm not doing that. Ken Sher: Right. But they always say, one thing you can get from AI is self-confidence, because it's what a great question that is. You are so thoughtful. So Keith Willis: Yeah! Ken Sher: if your confidence is down, talk to AI. That'll help you. But I also think, too, and again, I know AI, like I was always impressed by Google. Now AI is just, it is truly unbelievable. But it's the same thing. People could always could have Googled the information on different medications or you know, different approaches to different disease states. But it's also a lot of us don't do that. I'd rather you tell me. don't want to do the research. You go do the research and tell me. So I think that's too where you say AI can't develop that kind of relationship where a doctor or a healthcare provider can call you or ask you questions and say, get back to me on that. know, they, you know, they have to do it all themselves. lot of them don't have time for that. So as a representative, you can help make their lives easier by providing the information they need. Keith Willis: Yeah, it's like putting together an FAQ document and expecting people to pull it and look at it versus having a town hall. A lot of people may Ken Sher: Right. Keith Willis: prefer to have a town hall. Ken Sher: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. I think you're right. It's a good analogy. Keith Willis: What question have I not asked you that I should be asking you? Ken Sher: I don't know, I think it's been a great conversation. I got to be honest with you, like as you're asking some of the questions, I'm thinking, boy, I hope I have an answer for that. You've asked some really great questions. So I think it's been a good conversation. I don't know, I feel like we've covered a lot. think, trying to think from the farmer world in particular, if there's something. And I'm sorry to say I don't have any questions. This is bad because when I coach my clients for interviewing, I say you've always got to have a question at the end. Keith Willis: That's all right. I guess if I were going to ask you questions specifically around pharma and pharma world, because my audience is life sciences, from your experience, if there were a piece of advice that you would give to any

manager, whether they be new or they've been doing this for a while, what would it be? Ken Sher: Hmm, that is a good question. I wish I would have thought of that one, I would say that this is actually one of the first conversations that it hasn't come up is networking. I think that regardless of where you are in your career, you need to network for various reasons. If you're a manager in a pharma company, it behooves you to go network, have regular conversations with market research, with marketing, with manufacturing even with the different parts of the business, so you understand the full business. And maybe that might change your approach to how you take on an issue or whatever that might be. So when you network as a manager, you're getting a better sense of the big picture. But also from a career point of view, the more people you're connected with, you have more career opportunities. There may be an opening in a... in marketing, if you're in sales and you want marketing that because you've had those regular networking conversations, you might find yourself being a front runner for that role. you might, you know, God forbid get laid off, but because of your network, you might be able to land a little easier and quit more quickly. So I think that getting out of your own world and seeing what else is going on around you is a very important part of a successful career, regardless of where you're at. Keith Willis: Yeah, that's a good analogy, getting out of your own world. I know looking back, one of the things that I would have done differently, and even though I networked internally within other pharma companies, I would even recommend people get out of their industry or join a networking group. Obviously, both of us are in Beacon and we meet a lot of people in a lot of different industries and we have an opportunity to talk to people. And I think that adds to your breadth of knowledge. And it also builds the number of connections that you have, because in some cases people are in similar roles in another industry just because they've networked from a broader perspective. I just, you know, I go back and I look, I know initially when I went out on my own, most of the people that I knew were in pharma. And so you only have a one worldview versus if you talk to people in SaaS, you talk to people in IT, finance, you get a better perspective around leadership. things that people are doing. Generally, Ken Sher: Yeah. Keith Willis: everybody has some of the same challenges and issues, but it is building, you know, it's really building your community in a sense. Ken Sher: Yeah, I think you're right on. And so it helps you in your current role, but it might help you expand your horizons and move into more diverse roles and have a more diverse career. Keith Willis: Yeah, absolutely. Ken, we've had a great conversation. Where can people find you? Ken Sher: Well, I agree. I really enjoyed this, Keith. So thank you again for having me on. People can find me on LinkedIn. They could look at my website at sher coaching.com or reach out to me directly at Ken at sher coaching.com. If you go to LinkedIn and you want to talk on my calendar link is right in my contact information. I'd love for you to set up an appointment directly and we could have a 30 minute conversation with no obligation and I'll help you in any way that I can. So I'd love to hear from some of your audience. That would be great. Keith Willis: Ken, thanks again for being on Inside Pharma Leadership. Ken Sher: Thank you, Keith.