สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:11.199
When you don't tell someone something that they deserve to know, you are robbing them of their ability to make a choice in the situation.
00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:13.199
You're making the choice for them.
00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:23.920
If I don't tell you something because I am worried it's gonna hurt your feelings, that means I'm denying you the ability to have accurate feelings.
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:30.800
Hello, Julie.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:31.679
How are you today?
00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:32.399
I'm good.
00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:33.359
How are you, Anna?
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:34.399
So good.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:35.759
It's lovely to see you.
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:41.359
I was totally like, I cannot get over the pictures you sent me this last week.
00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:44.799
Oh my gosh, what a magical place, Hannah.
00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:45.600
Yeah, yeah.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:46.560
Incredible.
00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:48.799
Well, first, let's let our listener in.
00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:55.039
Do you want to tell our listener like what this secretive, amazing place is?
00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:01.359
So Julie was at a place called the Hat Ranch, which um used to be my grandmother's.
00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:06.079
And so it was my grandmother's ranch that she spent summers on in northern Arizona.
00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:12.079
And every year she would have camp for all of her grandchildren called Camp Baisie, because her name was Baisie.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:19.439
And for a month every year, she would take all her grandchildren and other kids that she found, and she'd hire us a camp counselor and we'd have adventures.
00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:25.359
And that was her gift to her children, was one month a year without children, which I think was probably good for everyone.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:37.519
But it's it's a trippy thing to like one day randomly, like on a Tuesday, to have your friend be like, I'm at the place you grew up spending summers, like this place that was like family for me.
00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:43.599
And now it is this like public location that's part of Northern Arizona University.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:49.760
I don't know that I would say that it's public, but it probably feels very public to you because of how private it was to start.
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:58.799
And like I was there because um they have an undergraduate research camp for a month every every summer.
00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:18.080
And so students get to stay probably in the same rooms you stayed in and do a research project and really honor the memory of your grandmother uh by having a uh convening where they share about their research and why conservation matters.
00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:23.919
And so I got to be a part of that uh because we're really we're thinking about potentially collaborating with them.
00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.919
And so we were invited and it was it was amazing.
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:36.879
Going to a poster session where there are ranch dogs just wandering around and listening was like the best thing ever.
00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.039
Dogs, dogs.
00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:46.639
There's like the I'm glad there are dogs because that is very like true to the heart of the Hat Ranch is so many dogs.
00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:49.759
They were the happiest dogs I've ever met in my life.
00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.479
They are living the best life.
00:02:52.719 --> 00:03:07.599
And and I have to tell you, like you are part of lore there in such an interesting way because what some of the students were talking about how they would love for younger students to get this experience and to be out there uh into camp.
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.759
And one of the NAU officials was like, Camp Bazy.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:14.560
And I just like looked at her like, are you kidding?
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:18.879
That was my friend's childhood.
00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:19.680
Right.
00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:26.000
So Julie keeps texting me these pictures of like my dad in a picture frame and like yeah, I don't know.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:33.360
I I didn't, I thought you would have been there longer, so I didn't tell you about where this where to find the sacred tree because there's a sacred tree, and you totally saw it.
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:35.280
It's in the field on the right as you drive in.
00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.240
Uh, it's that that big amazing tree in the middle of that field.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.680
Um but yeah, like so trippy and so awesome.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:48.800
And here's the thing that I I'm interested if this is part of the lore, but Baisie was very much a citizen scientist.
00:03:48.879 --> 00:04:00.000
Like Basie did not graduate either high school or college because family called at the moment that she was about to graduate both high school, at the moment she was about to graduate high school, her brother died.
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:04.400
And the moment she was about to graduate college, her mother broke her hip and she was the youngest.
00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.280
And so she got brought home to finish that.
00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:12.560
And so she never her one of her like proudest achievements was an honorary doctorate.
00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:14.800
But she was an incredible geneticist.
00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.000
Like she had, she had an experiment, right?
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:27.759
Like she had the she had the the privilege and the the money to experiment with horses in genetics in ways that I I don't think anyone ever has.
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:36.560
Um her her herd was so genetically controlled um that there she knew all the recessive genes and who had them.
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:38.879
And wow, and there were only like three.
00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:44.959
Before you could test for them, she already knew the lines, like where they came from back many generations.
00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:54.959
Load full transcript
Um, so I do, I do love the idea of a camp basy for SARS kiddos to learn learn science as just like a part of life.
00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:56.319
Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:06.399
I do think that that's a big piece of it is living with science and seeing science around you, but I didn't know her history with education and everything.
00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:08.639
That's really incredible, everything she did.
00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:11.199
Yeah, she just she was just super passionate about it.
00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:12.560
She read voraciously.
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.600
I think she did study genetics a bit in college.
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:20.399
I feel like there's some stories about her and fruit flies, but I don't know.
00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:21.759
I don't know the full story.
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.240
From the pictures, did it look pretty similar?
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.680
Like, did it feel like there were a lot of changes?
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.759
Yeah, it did look a lot the same.
00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:32.160
Like it definitely did look a lot the same.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:39.279
And I'm sure, you know, the couple times I've been back, um, I haven't been back since the universities had it.
00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.120
I was there a few, I think I was there once after my grandmother died.
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:44.959
And it was just weird.
00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.480
And like, yeah, it was just not it was just not the same.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:52.879
And I I was also there alone, and I was always used to being there with so many people.
00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:56.000
And like there were usually like 10 to 15 kids.
00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:57.920
We had jobs to do.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:05.360
Um, like one year I got to go along while they branded the cattle, and um, one year we had to make the tables.
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:07.199
I told you in our text exchange.
00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:13.360
There's these tables made of the spools that power lines are come on.
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:17.120
And she wanted them to be tables because the strawbale house was all about.
00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:23.920
We actually helped build the straw bale house, and that was all about her experiments with how to be more sustainable.
00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:26.240
So that's why she built a straw bale house.
00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:41.519
And I think it was particularly low water usage, and so she wanted recycled tables and she found these recycled electrical wire stools or spools, but then she also had the the chairs she wanted to use with them, and the chairs were too short, and she wasn't willing to give up the chairs.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:51.680
So the job of the cousins that year was to figure out how to dismantle spools, cut them down, thread the screws, and put them back together.
00:06:51.920 --> 00:07:09.040
That's something that I thought you'd really appreciate too, is that the students there were doing everyone's dishes and and like clearly had jobs, and they were the ones that that toured me around and took me to the different watering holes and things like that.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:22.639
And so you could tell that they were building a sense of um belonging and care with those students through being active in the the chores, the things that had to get done.
00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:27.680
Um and that really resonated with me for what you had shared about your experience there.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.879
Yeah, very cool.
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.680
It is it is a just genuinely magical place too.
00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:36.079
Like there's no denying that being there is just peaceful for the soul.
00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:41.120
I was thinking about just running away into the field where no one could find me and just staying there forever.
00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.360
Um, but I was the driver.
00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:51.199
So I had to next time, next time somebody else drives, you'll do a Julie-shaped like mannequin that you leave in the back of the car.
00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.240
Well, we should probably get into our topic.
00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:55.920
It's time to talk trust physics.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:57.439
That's what we're here for, right?
00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.639
And today, so if you don't know us already, I'm Hannah.
00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:03.600
This is Julie.
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.279
Yes, I'm Julie, uh co-conspirator and leadership enthusiast.
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:13.600
I'm Hannah, creator of conscience-driven leadership and trust physics, which is what we're here to talk about this season.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:25.439
Uh, conscience-driven leadership is a is a leadership model that recognizes how power and conscience fuel each other and interact in a way that makes the world better.
00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:26.879
Oh, fuel each other.
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:28.399
I love that description.
00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:29.920
That's really fun.
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:36.960
And this season we're focused on trust physics, a key aspect of uh conscience-driven leadership, CDL.
00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:44.559
Trust physics is a way to stay whole in your relationships by holding people accountable in ways that drive relationships forward.
00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:49.919
So today we're going to be talking about the laws of trust physics, right?
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:57.600
So this is why it's called physics because trust is not just a vibe or a feeling, which is how we often think of it, right?
00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:02.320
We talk about it like it's a currency or it's a feeling, and it's something that just happens.
00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:06.000
And that is really, I think that that is not accurate.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.200
I think trust follows laws just like physics does.
00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:15.360
Trust is either being built or eroded with every action you take and every conversation you have.
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:27.600
And when you understand the laws that govern how trust works in relationships, you can work with them instead of having them work against you, which I think a lot of people experience trust as something they're like, but how?
00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:29.200
How do I build trust with a person?
00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:33.360
How do I trust, how do I get so I trust them and how do I make them trust me?
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.720
It's a mystery.
00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:41.919
Yeah, I think that people also will think about trust as something that you just have, like a physical object, like, oh, I've built trust.
00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:42.720
Check.
00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:48.639
Uh, but then at the same way, if if it's a physical object, it's something you can just lose and never get back.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.519
But that's not a great way to stay whole in relationships.
00:09:51.600 --> 00:10:03.840
So being mindful of those laws and how we work with them allows us to kind of pair trust with the reality of relationships and that there will be ups and downs and there are ways to come back.
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:06.480
And when there isn't, that's okay too.
00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:16.559
And that is part of relationships as well, is that every relationship is going to be different in your life and is going to serve a different purpose, whether that stays with you for a long time or if it's for a short term.
00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:17.200
Absolutely.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.679
And I actually think I don't know that broken trust is why relationships end.
00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.720
I think accountability for trusting yourself.
00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.559
I think trusting yourself is how relationships end well.
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:44.399
And not that both people will think it ended well, but that's how I think you can end relationships in a way that has integrity, where your integrity is intact and where the relationship's integrity has basically communicated that this relationship can't exist and be whole.
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:46.639
Like it can't exist and build trust.
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.399
Therefore it shouldn't exist, right?
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:59.679
So forcing a relationship where trust can't happen because the laws are always in conflict, that's that's a relationship that's not actually helping either person be whole.
00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:00.159
Yeah.
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:01.200
No, that's well said.
00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:04.720
They're laws because they exist whether you use them or not, right?
00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:07.919
And uh I'm really interested.
00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:11.759
I can't wait to hear what you think about the different laws and how you respond to them.
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.919
We'll start with law one, which is that trust breaks faster than it heals, which I think we've all experienced, right?
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:28.159
Like something happens where you do something very different than I expected you to do, or you say something that feels totally out of character or something.
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.360
And my ability to trust you can fracture in a in a nanosecond.
00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:37.519
And building it back up is gonna take more than a nanosecond.
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.200
It's gonna take more than one conversation or one action to rebuild.
00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:44.879
And in the first place, it doesn't build without some evidence.
00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:51.600
You need to see evidence in a person at least a few times before you start to have trust that is something you can rely on.
00:11:51.840 --> 00:12:04.879
It does remind me of people in my life that there was a moment where there was that kind of fissure where there's something happened that I'm like, oh, maybe they're a different person than I think they are.
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:10.320
And I ended up kind of holding on and trying to be as honest as I could with them and working through.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:11.840
And now that's a blip.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:18.080
And at the moment, that felt like a huge thing that completely changed the way I saw the relationship.
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:19.200
But it did mend.
00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:28.960
And I don't know that I was really aware of that, but just that I kept showing up to see if that was the norm or not, or if it was just a a one-time thing.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.600
Because we are all going to do things that seem uncharacteristic or that are mistakes.
00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:37.200
Like we all do dumb stuff and we all break the other laws.
00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:44.000
And I think the other laws, some of the other laws are really um go into better detail about how trust gets broken.
00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:57.679
But I'm having an I'm having an experience right now with someone um who was dishonest with me and with the people around them, and they were caught in that dishonesty, and now they're having to rebuild, rebuild the trust.
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:03.200
But there was a moment early on when the dishonesty was first discovered and it was a piece.
00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:09.279
And I said to them, look, forgiveness is something we can all get behind.
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:11.200
Everybody makes mistakes.
00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:15.440
But here is an example of I I know you were dishonest with me in this moment.
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:19.759
And if you continue to be dishonest, I will continu I will know.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:25.039
And the window for forgiveness really closes if the truth dribbles out.
00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:25.679
Right.
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.279
Because finding out that there's a problem is one thing.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:36.960
But like once once is discovered, once, once you're on the hook, like once you can't conceal it anymore, you you gotta come all the way clean.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:40.799
And if you can come all the way clean at that moment, we've got
something we can build on.
00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:42.879
It'll be slower, but it's possible.
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.559
But continuing to lie is gonna make it crumble.
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:53.120
Yeah, I can see how these laws interact with each other when you say that, because it does remind me of lot too.
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:57.120
So maybe I'll talk about that one a little bit to kind of add to this and build on it.
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:02.480
Uh, because law two is the thing you won't say is the thing that traps you.
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.919
So I mean, you don't have to be perfect.
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.120
These things will happen, but you do have to be honest.
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:12.559
Um, whatever you're not saying, it's not gonna go away.
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.559
It doesn't just kind of wash out.
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:19.679
It's it stays in you, it lives inside you, taking up prime real estate.
00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:23.200
That's really important mind space.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.919
Uh, and because we all know that those hard things tend to loom larger in our minds.
00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:42.000
Uh, and so if you're not saying something, if you're not saying, hey, that was a lie, that is a bummer and that can't be a pattern for us, then it's still gonna live in you if you talk to about that with them about it or not.
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:49.440
And it sounds like you were really intentional about sharing what it was that wasn't okay for their relationship and for you to stay whole in that relationship.
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:54.559
When you're the person holding the accountability in that moment, yeah, you there's the thing you need to say.
00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:04.000
But honestly, this person who was holding on to truths that we didn't know that I didn't know and that other people didn't know, that was the thing that was really poison.
00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.080
Like that, that was the real trap.
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:21.759
Me not saying, me not saying in response, hey, we're crossing a line here is gonna trap me, but not nearly as much as when I have done something that I know someone else will harm, you know, that that I know people won't like and I don't tell them.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.200
And that's gonna lead into law three here in a second.
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:33.679
Um, but carrying around a secret will will poison you and like will will liquefy you from the inside.
00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:41.519
And the image on this card, like every every piece of trust physics, every piece of conscience-driven leadership has a card image associated with it.
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.919
And this one, I got it back from my designer who's brilliant and amazing.
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.240
And I was like, oh my gosh, is this too far?
00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:49.679
Because it's a little gruesome.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:54.320
It's a locked chest with liquid oozing out of it.
00:15:54.960 --> 00:16:04.000
And I feel like that's accurate because, like, when you are holding on to a thing, you're not keeping it to yourself because you think everybody's gonna throw a parade when you say something.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:06.320
You're afraid of how people are gonna respond.
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:14.000
And so you're holding it and you're holding all the imagined terrible responses that are connected to it as well.
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.720
So that's what it why it traps you.
00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:26.399
Like not saying a thing is actually building all this pressure inside of you about the story of what saying it will cost.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.919
And whatever it will cost, it will not be exactly what you imagine.
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:30.320
Yeah.
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.200
It reminds me of a mistake, a mistake I made as a leader.
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:51.279
At one point, um, someone on my staff was promoted to manager, and I felt like I wasn't doing that the credit it deserved because we didn't have the sustainable funding to have anyone report to this person.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:59.440
I recognized that a larger budget for their projects would have been valuable for them to truly be a manager, and I didn't explain that well.
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:06.240
What I had said was something along the lines of, I feel like I'm not truly making you a manager.
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:22.079
And they held on to that for a long time and then finally said what how they interpreted that, which is that they they'd kind of internalized that they weren't maybe good enough to be a manager or that they didn't have what it took to be.
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:27.519
They thought it was something about them instead of it being something about how I was building a context for them.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:38.240
I knew that for them to really thrive as a manager, that was on me too, as their manager, to make sure that they had the resources they needed to do it.
00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:39.920
And that's what I was thinking about.
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:47.440
And I was so grateful when they finally said something that probably lived inside them and festered in a lot of not great ways.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.000
They're an amazing employee, they do amazing work.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:54.160
And so for them to think that I did not believe in them is really hard.
00:17:54.240 --> 00:18:01.359
And I'm so glad that they'd finally unleashed that ooze because it was not as bad as I thought.
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:10.799
It was more on me and my promise to the organization, so that now that they do have people reporting to them and they they are able to do these things and with a larger budget.
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.839
And that was more of a commitment on my part that I did not clarify very well.
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:16.559
Absolutely.
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.000
It's so easy.
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:19.759
It's so easy to take.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:26.000
And so, like in that moment, that's the moment where like that moment of like, can I clarify that you're really saying this?
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.839
Like, I want to make sure, like, oh, that that that doesn't feel good.
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:31.200
Is that accurate?
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:41.119
And or even like if some, if you feel something that's sticking in you and has that like decomposing quality to it, where you're like, this is making me question the relationship.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:47.519
If it, if it, if your trust is eroding because of something you haven't said, say it, say it quickly.
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:54.079
Like the sooner you get it off your chest, the less liquefied you are, and the faster trust can begin to build.
00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.039
And even if what you heard was accurate, right?
00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:07.359
If that person had come to you and said, you know, I really you said something the other day, and what I heard was that I don't really get to be a real manager because you can't support me, is that accurate?
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.000
You've been like, oh yeah, and I'm really working on it.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.680
That still would have eliminated the question in your head of, am I, am I hearing this right?
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.079
Does it, did she mean what she said?
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.480
You know, did she mean what I I heard?
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:22.960
Like it's always good to just get it out.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:24.079
It's not easy.
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:36.880
If you're dealing with someone who doesn't have integrity, who's not whole as a person, who doesn't value the wholeness of the relationship or your wholeness, and you do that, the reaction can be very strong and very negative, right?
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:55.200
If you're checking with someone who is, I don't know, I'm a little hesitant to say abusive, but I think lots of us are in have experience with relationships that are abusive to some degree, just in the terms of somebody doesn't want to be equal with us in a relationship, right?
00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.640
They want more from us than they're willing to give, that sort of thing.
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:12.240
If you go to somebody who isn't interested in your wholeness and you say, Oh, I something you said felt kind of mean, you know, was that accurate, you're gonna wind up getting gaslit, right?
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:19.440
Like you're gonna get Darvo'd, which if you don't know Darvo is an acronym, deny, attack, reverse victim and offender.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.160
And it is the classic narcissist move.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.440
You as soon as oh, you haven't heard of Darvo?
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:36.480
Oh, Darvo's life-altering because when you say something to someone and they say, You're wrong, and actually you're attacking me, like you're wrong, you're a bad person.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.039
And actually, because you brought this up, I feel wounded.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:46.000
That is like the classic little Darvo deny attack, reverse victim and offender.
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:52.880
We'll get to this more when we talk about apologies, because it is the classic apology sneak, like sneak escape hatch.
00:20:53.200 --> 00:21:00.799
But if you, if you know anybody, if you've been Darvo'd and we all have, that's the kind of thing that makes you want to not say anything.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.440
Because if you say something, you might get attacked.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.480
And if the relationship isn't whole, your job is to protect your own wholeness first.
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.920
And then you can see if the relationship can be whole.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.880
Like that's as we get into more sophisticated things.
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:23.440
But I think this leads into it's really connected to the next law, which is one that like was personally very painful for me to learn.
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.759
The next law is niceness is a form of non-consent.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:29.200
Ooh, how's a doozy?
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:30.160
Yeah.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:36.720
And I it's worded this strong on purpose because I think this is a really pervasive problem.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:42.559
I think it's pervasive for conscience driven leaders because we care about people and we want to be nice to them.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:43.920
We don't want to hurt them.
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:58.319
And I think it's important to recognize that when you don't tell someone something that they deserve to know, you are robbing them of their ability to make a choice in the situation.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.759
You're making the choice for them.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.319
them.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:10.559
If I don't tell you something because I am worried it's going to hurt your feelings, that means I'm denying your you the ability to have accurate feelings.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:11.680
That's heavy.
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:13.920
But it's also what a great motivator.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:19.440
I mean it's it's big, but it's such a great reason to go ahead and do the hard thing.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:20.160
Yeah.
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:25.039
And say like I did a thing and I think you're going to be really disappointed in me.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:30.319
But I am going to tell you because you being disappointed in me is a choice you get to make.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:38.640
And right, I don't I I there is an impulse in me to not tell you because I don't want to hurt your feelings, but you deserve to know what's going on.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:45.440
Because if you don't know, then you know if I'm withholding the truth, I'm kind of a that makes me a liar.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:46.880
Yeah.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:52.000
And so it's it'll eat at you, but it also is going to damage them.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:54.079
So it's
really two ways.
00:22:54.160 --> 00:23:09.680
And so I think that's why laws two and three connect so much is because law two is about what happens inside you when you don't say something and law three is about what happens inside another per what happens as a result of that to another person.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:10.960
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:21.680
It it reminds me of again thinking of work because so many of these, there's so many intricate relationships at work that often need some pulling apart, I think.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:30.480
Uh and something I watch for a pattern that I see in different organizations is talking around a person who is the quote unquote problem.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:42.559
So uh it I often say if you are trying to solve a problem that you feel someone is causing and not including them in the conversation something is is very wrong.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:52.000
They're probably the person you really need to be talking about that needs to be in these conversations, but either you don't trust them to be in these conversations that's the problem.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.000
Or you don't trust yourself in including them.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.440
And both of these things need to be approached head on.
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:09.519
Because I do think it often comes from niceness of I need the space to try to figure this out for them or maybe we can all bend and make it work for this person.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:20.319
I think that there's often a kind niceness, I'll say to to it, but that doesn't mean it's going to solve the problem for everyone in the org.
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.240
In fact you're probably making it harder for everyone.
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:23.759
This has happened to all of us.
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:48.640
Somebody we finally find out that everybody's been talking about this thing that we did that was, you know, unintentional or outright stupid whatever it was everybody's trying to figure out how to move us into the place we need to be but they're not just telling us like that that feels crappy to find out that everybody knows that you're a problem and you didn't know you're a problem like that makes you an asshole.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.920
And that is not right right none of us are trying to be assholes.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.079
I think that's a really great example like you're trying to be nice because you don't want to hurt their feelings.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:57.759
You don't want them to feel attacked.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:03.440
You don't I don't want you to feel blank you don't I don't get to decide what you feel.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.920
Those are your feelings you get to decide what you feel.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.279
That's the nonconsent piece.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:13.920
Like you don't get to you don't get to protect yourself from the feelings somebody has about an action you did.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:14.640
Absolutely.
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:20.559
And I think that it's important to kind of bring in lot four here too if you don't mind transitioning there.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.400
And that's that inconsistency warps the system.
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:31.440
You know, in this example you're probably treating that person that you're not including in the conversations differently than you're treating everyone else.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.400
And that is a signal that the system is not real.
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:46.720
You know that whatever you've said in the past as soon as you make an exception for someone you're often telling people that this the the roles aren't real.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:26:00.400
And that can really degrade the system that you've built whether that is a system of a friendship group, whether that is a system at work, you are you're degrading something bigger than even one relationship.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:09.680
Yeah, because why would I trust you if I see that you say one that you that you say one thing to everybody but you only hold certain people accountable to it.
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:14.960
How do I know that I'm one of the people that you're going to hold accountable to it or are you going to let the rule side for me?
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.559
Either way, you're you're degrading trust as a system.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:24.720
And when we're talking about trust in leadership, building the system of trust is the job, right?
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:30.799
Like you need trust to be a network among everyone you lead when you're in a formal leadership role.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:46.079
Like your job is to create an environment where everyone can trust each other because they all know what the rules are, where they understand what alignment looks like and they know for sure that if they move out of alignment, they're gonna like it will be addressed quickly so that they feel safe.
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:53.039
And also man, letting somebody get away with not doing their job is the best way to piss off everybody who does their job.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:53.680
100%.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:00.640
And they'll lose trust in you as a leader and they lose trust and they they they wind up forming clicks like everything degrades from there.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:06.400
So yeah the I think probably the inconsistent it's from a leadership perspective, I don't know.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.079
I think they're all equally important.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.960
It's hard to pick they're all they're all so valuable.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:19.119
Yeah, because they are they do interplay because I do think this comes from a niceness perspective of people can be allergic to no.
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:20.640
They don't want to say no.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:34.640
They want to say yes they they want to keep everyone happy but this is one of those tricky things where we think it's going to make people happy and it's absolutely not you're
in then just saying yes to one person and no to everybody else.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:43.359
And honestly it's inconsistency is a form of breaking law two or law three because you're not saying something.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:50.640
You're not saying it because that person rarely makes mistakes and so you don't want them to feel nitpicked when you know this is a one off.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:28:06.880
Doesn't matter if it's a one-off it's no big deal right we'll talk about the sequence in the next episode but so much of how to build trust is about having conversations quickly right like law one that's why law one is is about speed is because there's a reason there's a book called The Speed of Trust.
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:12.720
Like having trust makes things move faster but building trust happens when you minimize the delay.
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:25.440
Yeah that's well said and I see this in our external conversations and communications too that uh SARC, the organization I run, has one of the largest science fairs in the world.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:40.400
Uh and we have a real hard time we have had a real hard time in the past holding deadlines and saying well that was the project deadline so yep because it affects kids.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:52.799
Like we don't want kids to not be able to be in the science fair but what we were doing was really showing people that the deadline didn't count and it made staff's lives so hard.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:29:02.480
We were training people to kind of prioritize their schedule over the schedule of a giant fair with a lot of moving parts and it wasn't helping anyone.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:08.960
It wasn't helping the kids already in the fair that now had distracted staff managing the event they were a part of.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.680
And so we've tried to be much clearer about where can we make exceptions?
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.079
And how do we make sure that that's clear to everyone and so they're not just secret.
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:26.799
And how do we make sure that we are able to say in some cases, I'm sorry, it's not the year because we you missed the deadline by a lot.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:28.240
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:37.920
But and also it's not fair to all the kids who worked really hard to meet the deadline and now they're, you know, like if they'd had another week their project could have probably been a little better.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:44.799
But they don't get to go back and edit because somebody else was later like yeah it's unfair in every direction.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:51.039
And you think maybe like oh it's it's you you think maybe there's a way to wiggle by it and it there just isn't.
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:51.599
Yeah.
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:56.559
And it comes from a good place, but you just have to figure out and be very clear and transparent then.
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:01.599
You do you'd have to make those decisions of where where would we make exceptions?
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:08.480
Well and that's why you know intent versus impact is so important because everybody feels like they're operating from a good place.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:14.160
Like people rarely feel like they're doing something to be mean or that their intent is bad.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:33.519
But if you're judging someone else's reaction based on what your intent was in doing something, you are denying that that's a kind of that your it's another form of nonconsent is a form of gaslighting you're saying your reaction to the thing that actually happened shouldn't count because I didn't mean it to hurt.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:39.440
Like so your hurt isn't real, your hurt isn't allowed because I didn't mean to hurt you.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:45.119
And like systemically how much are we in trouble because of that very concept?
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.799
And it it works on the smallest scale too.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.240
And when you let it slide on the small scale, it gets bigger and bigger.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:31:01.920
Yeah, well said so the how do we rebuild trust law five covers that accountability is the force that restores integrity.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:19.680
Accountability is not something that happen that is punitive that happens after the fact accountability is the kind of conversation we get used to having so that when integrity fractures even a little bit, we can restore it right away before that fracture becomes a break and the break becomes a hole and everything falls into the hole.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:27.920
So accountability that yeah I think we've covered accountability in other episodes and we will cover it more in the accountability sequence in our next episode.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:32.880
But accountability is how we restore integrity is how ultimately we build trust.
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.079
It is the tool that does the building yeah that's great.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:48.480
And I'm excited next time to talk about where you can intervene when there is misalignment and to continue to build and uphold that accountability but I think this is a good start stopping spot for for this episode.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:49.200
What do you say?
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:56.960
I think so too yeah I mean I feel like the laws yeah we did we did it yeah they're super fun.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:07.119
Huge thank you to every for to you for listening to you Julie for having these fun conversations and being the person who reintroduced me to my childhood camp experience.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:20.720
Any time thank you thank you to our amazing producer Anna Miller who is not me but rather another person whose name rhymes with mine who does such a fabulous job creating this podcast and all the other content that comes from it.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:42.559
Please subscribe to this podcast on whatever platform you use and if you want to learn more about trust physics or conscience driven leadership check out conscience drivenleadership.com and it occurred to me if spelling that gives you a headache, you can also go to ringmasterconsulting.com and it will redirect you because ringmaster consulting is my business name.
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.920
So that URL works just as well and is much easier to spell.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.880
Well thank you Hannah for inviting me on this journey.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.240
It's a lot of fun to really dive into these concepts.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:04.240
It's always wonderful to talk with you about them and it helps me feel feel their aliveness in the world to have them reflected and and and have I don't know to have your engagement with them.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:05.839
It really it's it means a lot.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:10.720
Thank you so much for joining us we will catch you next time and yeah have a great day.
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:12.240
Thanks for listening