บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Never Broken Just Misunderstood

nice waterways. You've got the Thames 69 00:04:25.491 --> 00:04:29.118 not far from you. We just spent a week near 70 00:04:29.118 --> 00:04:32.376 Swindon and you've got the Kennet and Avon Canal and some of the areas around 71 00:04:32.376 --> 00:04:36.202 Bath are really beautiful. So yeah, you don't need a seafront. or, or a 72 00:04:36.267 --> 00:04:39.828 naval heritage. There's a lot of other stuff going on. That's true. I would like 73 00:04:39.828 --> 00:04:42.078 a seafront though, one day. One day I'll live by the sea. 74 00:04:43.806 --> 00:04:47.471 You can go on holiday. Maybe that's the secret. Yeah. So Jenny, you, you spent 75 00:04:47.633 --> 00:04:51.588 16 years in teaching. I did. Kind of in 76 00:04:51.637 --> 00:04:54.876 your own words, you were slowly falling apart before your, your 77 00:04:54.940 --> 00:04:57.839 diagnostic, uh, or diagnosis at late 30s. 78 00:04:59.127 --> 00:05:02.181 And that kind of changed everything for you. So talk a bit about that and, 79 00:05:02.559 --> 00:05:06.242 and do you think you'd you'd like to sort of drop into the conversation at 80 00:05:06.242 --> 00:05:10.096 the beginning about what you'd wish someone had said to you in those early 81 00:05:10.096 --> 00:05:13.966 days? So it's interesting, you know, I was, I was a 82 00:05:13.966 --> 00:05:17.564 secondary school teacher for 16 years and kind of during COVID 83 00:05:17.564 --> 00:05:21.064 times, that was really the breaking point that year in 84 00:05:21.177 --> 00:05:24.437 2020 when everyone came back into schools in 85 00:05:24.549 --> 00:05:28.211 September and we had bubbles and then we had to start testing 86 00:05:28.243 --> 00:05:32.210 children on site and it was just so dystopian. It 87 00:05:32.242 --> 00:05:35.708 was such a strange experience to live through that. 88 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:39.806 There was a, you know, a huge number of factors that came together that meant 89 00:05:39.806 --> 00:05:43.237 that in the March of 2021, I ended up signed off work 90 00:05:45.018 --> 00:05:48.605 for 3 months with burnout, which I didn't realise at the time was 91 00:05:48.718 --> 00:05:51.819 actually autistic burnout because I was undiagnosed at that point. 92 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:56.391 And it was just during that time where I was 93 00:05:56.586 --> 00:06:00.272 off I came to the realisation, 94 00:06:00.754 --> 00:06:02.825 and I don't really know how to describe it, it was more of a kind 95 00:06:02.825 --> 00:06:06.598 of, it was like a physical reckoning that I cannot return to 96 00:06:06.598 --> 00:06:09.135 full-time teaching. There's no way that I'm going to be able to go back into 97 00:06:09.167 --> 00:06:12.893 that school, to go back into the classroom all day, every day. I 98 00:06:12.957 --> 00:06:16.650 just, it was like an invisible brick wall. I could not see 99 00:06:16.650 --> 00:06:20.503 past it. Um, and it was sort of at that time that my eldest daughter, 100 00:06:20.825 --> 00:06:23.923 who

was, she was kind of year 3 or 4 at the time, 101 00:06:24.677 --> 00:06:28.224 was really struggling with like recurring tummy pains, 102 00:06:28.369 --> 00:06:32.204 recurring tummy pains. We had them physically investigated. She had her appendix out, 103 00:06:32.220 --> 00:06:35.960 like there was a whole thing and they, they were not easing. 104 00:06:36.714 --> 00:06:39.731 And she'd be telling us dozens of times a day, oh, my tummy really hurts. 105 00:06:40.245 --> 00:06:43.005 And it was eventually the paediatrician that said, could this actually be 106 00:06:43.792 --> 00:06:47.515 psychological? And we spoke to school about it. And it was 107 00:06:47.692 --> 00:06:51.367 at that point that sort of neurodivergence entered the conversation. And it was 108 00:06:51.479 --> 00:06:55.457 through Seeking a diagnosis for her and her being accommodated 109 00:06:55.553 --> 00:06:59.306 and that easing, like significantly easing— the tummy pains disappeared 110 00:06:59.803 --> 00:07:03.347 almost overnight when they started to put support in place for her at school— that 111 00:07:03.347 --> 00:07:07.148 I started to look into sort of what neurodivergence could look like in 112 00:07:07.356 --> 00:07:11.317 girls and women and how the ADHD could show up differently and how 113 00:07:11.430 --> 00:07:15.182 autism could show up differently, and that there had been kind of practically no research 114 00:07:15.294 --> 00:07:18.053 into the area of neurodivergence in women. 115 00:07:19.418 --> 00:07:23.143 And, you know, started to identify myself with lots of the different things that we 116 00:07:23.208 --> 00:07:26.999 were investigating for my daughter. And it was kind of mind-blowing 117 00:07:27.501 --> 00:07:31.360 going through the assessment process and diagnosed with ADHD first and then a 118 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.959 few months later with autism and just kind of sitting 119 00:07:35.152 --> 00:07:38.987 and— I mean, it's kind of an overwhelming sensation, the 120 00:07:39.019 --> 00:07:42.501 idea of I've lived with something my whole life and I didn't know 121 00:07:42.825 --> 00:07:46.701 about it until now. And there was also a 122 00:07:46.701 --> 00:07:50.154 sense of a bit of shame as well, because I had been a secondary school 123 00:07:50.154 --> 00:07:54.153 teacher for such a long time and I thought I knew what autism and ADHD 124 00:07:54.153 --> 00:07:57.992 looked like in humans. Turns out that 125 00:07:58.168 --> 00:08:01.943 I didn't really have any idea at all and that we were not 126 00:08:01.943 --> 00:08:05.701 trained on that as kind of, you know, bog standard teachers, if you like. That, 127 00:08:05.974 --> 00:08:09.139 that did not enter the chat. So there's a whole gamut of emotions that came 128 00:08:09.187 --> 00:08:12.640 up with that. alongside a bit of an understanding as to 129 00:08:13.926 --> 00:08:17.332 why I had so spectacularly burned out of the thing that I trained for. 130 00:08:18.569 -->

00:08:21.637 I, I can relate to a lot of that. And I think for me, 131 00:08:22.746 --> 00:08:26.746 the realisation was, was probably this podcast, having lots of conversations with 132 00:08:26.778 --> 00:08:30.763 people who, who brought themselves on the show to talk about their autism, 133 00:08:30.795 --> 00:08:34.731 their ADHD, their neurodiversity, their neurospiciness, 134 00:08:34.811 --> 00:08:38.160 as some people have called it, whatever, or talk about their children. And 135 00:08:38.905 --> 00:08:42.564 I didn't ever go through it with my children as such. So 136 00:08:43.017 --> 00:08:46.805 I, I became sentient and aware of it just by lots of 137 00:08:46.821 --> 00:08:50.583 conversations with people like yourself. And I think 138 00:08:51.277 --> 00:08:54.716 there's a bit you put in your notes, you, you went from, what's wrong with 139 00:08:54.748 --> 00:08:58.725 me? This isn't, you're not broken, you just 140 00:08:58.725 --> 00:09:02.493 function differently. And that's the realisation I think that I had that 141 00:09:03.472 --> 00:09:06.405 I never knew I was broken. I never knew I was functioning differently. I just 142 00:09:06.437 --> 00:09:10.266 went, now it kind of makes sense. Yeah. That concept 143 00:09:10.266 --> 00:09:14.112 that, cuz you spend, when you are undiagnosed 144 00:09:14.112 --> 00:09:17.733 neurodivergent, you spend most of your life being told that the way that you see 145 00:09:17.733 --> 00:09:21.546 the world or the way that you experience the world is wrong. There's something wrong 146 00:09:21.562 --> 00:09:25.536 with you. Why do you think like that? Or that it's not 147 00:09:25.568 --> 00:09:29.397 that loud. Or why is that weird? It's just so many little 148 00:09:29.429 --> 00:09:33.362 subtle moments. Of there's something wrong with you, you're 149 00:09:33.362 --> 00:09:37.266 different, that's wrong. And so you internalise that, of course, because 150 00:09:37.378 --> 00:09:41.362 the whole world is telling you at various different points that your experience is 151 00:09:41.475 --> 00:09:45.089 incorrect. And you come up with the concept of, well, there must be something wrong 152 00:09:45.089 --> 00:09:49.009 with me then, I'm just broken. And when you have that realisation and 153 00:09:49.009 --> 00:09:52.849 you go, all those people were wrong, actually the world was wrong, um, I was, 154 00:09:53.122 --> 00:09:56.495 I was right— not in a kind of haha, I was right, Bowie, but it's 155 00:09:56.495 --> 00:10:00.431 a kind of revelation of I was actually experiencing those things and 156 00:10:00.431 --> 00:10:03.401 you people have been gaslighting me this whole time. Yeah. 157 00:10:04.445 --> 00:10:07.015 And, you know, there is a period of time sort of after that, I think, 158 00:10:07.079 --> 00:10:11.078 where you, you almost have to relearn how to listen to yourself 159 00:10:11.736 --> 00:10:15.061 because depending on when you had this revelation and you got the diagnosis or you 160 00:10:15.061 --> 00:10:18.305 had the discovery, not everybody wants to have a diagnosis or is in the position 161 00:10:18.337 --> 00:10:22.030 to go for an assessment. When you start to kind of accommodate yourself and 162 00:10:22.030 --> 00:10:25.978 realise that this is what has been happening the whole time, you 163 00:10:25.994 --> 00:10:29.686 have to unlearn all of that conditioning that you've put on 164 00:10:29.735 --> 00:10:33.478 yourself to like fit in. Um, and that can take, it can 165 00:10:33.510 --> 00:10:37.472 take some time to be able to start trusting yourself 166 00:10:37.472 --> 00:10:41.353 again and that your experience is valid. The other thing I suppose I've realised is 167 00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:45.225 that everyone's experience of their own neurodiversity is, is 168 00:10:45.241 --> 00:10:48.888 unique. It's, it manifests itself in different ways, and I think 169 00:10:50.479 --> 00:10:52.845 for someone to Yeah, for me to go for a diagnosis 170 00:10:54.413 --> 00:10:57.567 based on what? Yeah, I see a bit of myself in you. I see a 171 00:10:57.567 --> 00:11:00.785 bit of myself in you. I don't do that. I don't do that. I don't 172 00:11:00.785 --> 00:11:04.313 do this. So I'm worried, you know, do I tick enough boxes? 173 00:11:04.410 --> 00:11:08.308 Am I neurodiverse enough for you? You know, am I just 174 00:11:08.598 --> 00:11:12.529 a little bit diverse? You know, it's— so I think I'm 175 00:11:12.545 --> 00:11:16.484 quite happy not knowing, just being me, just not needing a diagnosis for 176 00:11:16.484 --> 00:11:20.388 that. And, you know, that is a, it's a really valid point. And 177 00:11:20.645 --> 00:11:23.633 quite a lot of the people that are in my world, as I say, don't 178 00:11:23.633 --> 00:11:27.166 have a diagnosis and have got to an age where they think, I don't need 179 00:11:27.615 --> 00:11:31.341 it. I don't need the bit of paper that tells me XYZ. I know 180 00:11:31.486 --> 00:11:35.228 myself well enough to know and trust that this is my experience and 181 00:11:36.063 --> 00:11:39.837 I am accommodating myself as such, and I don't need anybody's permission to do 182 00:11:39.917 --> 00:11:43.521 that. And that's really powerful and validating in its own way. Yeah. I 183 00:11:43.521 --> 00:11:47.427 think I've also learned the various aspects in my own self 184 00:11:47.427 --> 00:11:51.332 that resonate and go, oh yeah, it's probably a bit of that. 185 00:11:51.332 --> 00:11:55.236 It's probably a bit of that. And I can go back in time and go, 186 00:11:55.236 --> 00:11:59.060 yeah, that's probably how it happened. Around the age of 187 00:11:59.060 --> 00:12:02.801 puberty, I became a nightmare. I developed this binary 188 00:12:02.801 --> 00:12:06.706 personality, if you like. I'm either all in or all out. And 189 00:12:06.706 --> 00:12:10.610 now I understand that if I'm really up for it, I will plough 190 00:12:10.610 --> 00:12:14.434 in both feet. my whole

body, if I'm not bothered, I'm like 191 00:12:14.434 --> 00:12:18.420 our puppy. I'm just not going in there. I'm not interested. 192 00:12:18.420 --> 00:12:22.323 I'll just ignore it and drop it. And I think realising that 193 00:12:22.323 --> 00:12:26.227 is a trait that I and others have. And I don't apologise for 194 00:12:26.227 --> 00:12:30.131 it anymore. I actually work out what I really want to do and 195 00:12:30.131 --> 00:12:33.953 put both feet into it. And then everything I don't want to 196 00:12:33.953 --> 00:12:37.717 do, I just go, I don't do that. I don't do that. Yeah, 197 00:12:37.878 --> 00:12:41.087 that's the thing, because you, you know, you understand that you have an 198 00:12:41.103 --> 00:12:45.003 interest-based nervous system, and so your motivation 199 00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:48.886 comes from doing something that is interesting. And I think it's so 200 00:12:48.886 --> 00:12:52.080 fascinating. There's, there's some stat out there that I can't remember, that there's a significant 201 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.964 proportion of, of founders and CEOs of the world that are neurodiverse in 202 00:12:55.964 --> 00:12:59.847 some way, ADHD in particular. And they're like the visionaries, 203 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:03.666 they're the ideas people, they have the ideas, and then they employ the teams to 204 00:13:04.132 --> 00:13:08.011 bring them to fruition. And I think being in a position 205 00:13:08.059 --> 00:13:12.003 where you can employ your brain in the way where the magic happens, and that 206 00:13:12.051 --> 00:13:15.882 works best for you, and then you can outsource or delegate 207 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:19.505 all the other bits and pieces that don't work for your brain to bring a 208 00:13:19.505 --> 00:13:23.449 project together, I think that's, that's the ideal way to be able to work with 209 00:13:23.449 --> 00:13:27.409 your brain. The other thing I had realised was that 210 00:13:27.601 --> 00:13:31.266 I realised I didn't want to be an extrovert anymore. And I 211 00:13:31.412 --> 00:13:34.558 probably never was, but the, I think my intense brain 212 00:13:35.547 --> 00:13:39.369 pushed me into spaces, into that extrovert space. 213 00:13:39.498 --> 00:13:43.167 And I used to come out exhausted and absolutely wiped out. 214 00:13:43.862 --> 00:13:47.612 And now I've also stopped drinking a couple of years ago. So now I 215 00:13:47.612 --> 00:13:50.498 don't feel the need to drink. I don't hang on at parties longer than I 216 00:13:50.498 --> 00:13:53.496 have to. And I'll go, I don't want to go. I'm not, nope, I don't 217 00:13:53.496 --> 00:13:56.187 want to go. Or if I am somewhere, I want to go home now. I've 218 00:13:56.187 --> 00:14:00.083 had enough. And so those sort of things, you know, you talk about late, late 219 00:14:00.628 --> 00:14:03.865 diagnosis and late age, if you like, this realisation. I think 220 00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:09.282 a lot of us perform, don't we? We perform. Yeah. That's it. 221 00:14:09.443 --> 00:14:12.648 And that, you know, one of the most common questions that people will ask me 222 00:14:12.712 --> 00:14:16.462 when they have the discovery, usually pre-diagnosis, is what is 223 00:14:16.558 --> 00:14:20.469 masking? How do I know if I'm masking? How will I know when I'm masking? 224 00:14:20.581 --> 00:14:23.947 And that was the question I had myself, you know, this revelation of, oh, I've 225 00:14:23.947 --> 00:14:27.585 been autistic and ADHD my whole life. How did I not know? And where am 226 00:14:27.617 --> 00:14:30.357 I masking? Surely if I was masking, I would know that I was putting on 227 00:14:30.357 --> 00:14:34.267 a performance. And it's exactly as you describe it there. The, the 228 00:14:34.364 --> 00:14:38.194 best way to start figuring that out is to look at the experiences and 229 00:14:38.274 --> 00:14:42.200 the people who exhaust you the most, because they 230 00:14:42.216 --> 00:14:45.966 are normally the ones that you are using the most energy to be in front 231 00:14:46.046 --> 00:14:49.989 of. And that tends to be because you are performing in front of them. You 232 00:14:50.469 --> 00:14:54.187 are wearing a mask. You're having to hold yourself in shapes that 233 00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:58.242 are uncomfortable for prolonged periods of time, and therefore afterwards you need recovery. recovery 234 00:14:58.242 --> 00:15:02.079 time, you're exhausted. Um, those— that's probably the 235 00:15:02.239 --> 00:15:05.947 biggest clue as to where you can start looking and going, actually, if I didn't 236 00:15:05.947 --> 00:15:09.880 have to behave that way in that situation, what would 237 00:15:09.880 --> 00:15:13.716 that feel like? Would I still be able to be in that situation? And, 238 00:15:13.877 --> 00:15:17.312 you know, when you mention alcohol, that's a very common thing as well for particularly 239 00:15:17.344 --> 00:15:21.325 neurodivergent people. When they give up the alcohol, the alcohol is 240 00:15:21.357 --> 00:15:25.033 very much part of the mask, you know. And actually, when you don't have that 241 00:15:25.065 --> 00:15:28.866 as a kind It's almost like a security blanket anymore. You realise, 242 00:15:28.962 --> 00:15:31.607 actually, I don't— the reason I'm drinking is so that I can stay in these 243 00:15:31.607 --> 00:15:35.022 situations that I don't want to be in for longer. Yeah. Also, it can lead 244 00:15:35.022 --> 00:15:38.360 to having a kind of an addictive trait, isn't it? I, my, I 245 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:42.062 discovered that I couldn't, I couldn't have one drink. It was 246 00:15:42.062 --> 00:15:46.056 either one drink or 100 drinks. And I, I couldn't stop. I was the one 247 00:15:46.056 --> 00:15:49.757 on the bar going, give me another one. Give me— we're closed. I 248 00:15:49.757 --> 00:15:53.458 remember, I'll tell this story on another podcast episode. I 249 00:15:53.458 --> 00:15:57.378 remember being in Australia with a friend of

mine. I was speaking 250 00:15:57.378 --> 00:16:01.298 at a conference over there just before COVID and the bar shut. And 251 00:16:01.298 --> 00:16:05.216 he said to me, oh, I know of a petrol station around the corner that 252 00:16:05.216 --> 00:16:09.207 sells alcohol 24/7. So we ended up going to this petrol station and 253 00:16:09.207 --> 00:16:12.690 buying bottles of beer, sitting on a park bench, drinking 254 00:16:12.690 --> 00:16:16.609 alcohol. And it's like 4 in the morning from bottles from a petrol 255 00:16:16.609 --> 00:16:19.947 station. And I looked at myself in the mirror thinking, 256 00:16:19.947 --> 00:16:23.793 Something's got to change here. This is, this is not who I want to 257 00:16:23.793 --> 00:16:27.641 be. This is not who I am, but I'm kind of feeding myself. And yeah, 258 00:16:27.641 --> 00:16:31.561 and it's, it's stepping out of that. And my friend who still goes, 259 00:16:31.561 --> 00:16:35.189 they've just actually what they've done is they found other 260 00:16:35.189 --> 00:16:39.107 people who will feed that habit with them. And I just step back and 261 00:16:39.107 --> 00:16:42.569 go, well, you're welcome to him, you know? Yes. 262 00:16:43.924 --> 00:16:47.354 This, some people just latch onto the next drinker and then, yeah. 263 00:16:48.254 --> 00:16:51.609 And I didn't want to be that person anymore. Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot 264 00:16:51.609 --> 00:16:54.916 of strength to do that. So what other things did you notice that you look 265 00:16:54.916 --> 00:16:58.770 back on it now that, that there it is? It's so 266 00:16:58.770 --> 00:17:02.414 interesting because, um, I, when I had my 267 00:17:03.008 --> 00:17:06.476 burnout and when I look back on it, I think very much it was like 268 00:17:06.476 --> 00:17:10.329 the ADHD part of me that burned out. There is a real contradictory 269 00:17:10.345 --> 00:17:13.524 nature to being autistic and ADHD at the same time. And again, this is just 270 00:17:13.524 --> 00:17:17.246 my My personal experience, but sometimes it feels like they are 271 00:17:17.311 --> 00:17:20.938 competing inside my head. And so I am a person who 272 00:17:20.938 --> 00:17:24.469 enjoys people. I enjoy people's company. I find humans endlessly 273 00:17:24.517 --> 00:17:28.433 fascinating and their motivations for things and the way that people view 274 00:17:28.449 --> 00:17:32.108 the world. I find that fascinating. And at the same time, I hate 275 00:17:32.237 --> 00:17:35.976 people and I don't want to be around people and they're frustrating and endlessly annoying. 276 00:17:36.634 --> 00:17:40.134 Um, and I don't understand why they do the things that they do. I 277 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.644 certainly, when I was younger, when I was unmarried, childless in my 278 00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:48.657 early 20s, I had more capacity for social events 279 00:17:48.914 --> 00:17:51.867 and I could go out with colleagues after work and, you know, go to parties 280 00:17:51.899 --> 00:17:55.158 and do different things and to kind of find that an interesting way to spend 281 00:17:55.190 --> 00:17:58.255 my time. And what I realised was the more that I put on my plate. 282 00:17:58.576 --> 00:18:02.332 So when I got married and had more than one 283 00:18:02.332 --> 00:18:06.201 person to consider, and then when we had my first daughter and 284 00:18:06.201 --> 00:18:09.794 I then had to balance that and work and The more life 285 00:18:09.794 --> 00:18:13.722 responsibilities that ended up piling on the plate, the less capable 286 00:18:13.722 --> 00:18:16.735 I was for doing those other kind of things, you know, the other sort of 287 00:18:16.847 --> 00:18:20.743 more frivolous things. I just didn't have the capacity anymore. And I remember at one 288 00:18:20.855 --> 00:18:24.141 point thinking to myself, probably about 10 years ago now, 289 00:18:25.327 --> 00:18:27.972 uh, when I had 2 small children, I just don't think I'm the kind of 290 00:18:27.972 --> 00:18:31.275 person that is able to work full-time. I just don't think I have the capacity 291 00:18:31.275 --> 00:18:34.785 to work full-time. And now I look back at that with the knowledge that I'm 292 00:18:34.817 --> 00:18:38.360 autistic and ADHD and think, no wonder, no wonder. When I'm trying to hold all 293 00:18:38.488 --> 00:18:42.307 of these plates at the same time with my limited Capacity and executive function. 294 00:18:42.500 --> 00:18:45.824 Absolutely not. I'm not the kind of person that can work full-time and do all 295 00:18:45.872 --> 00:18:49.711 of this at the same time. But if you're anything like me, you can 296 00:18:49.711 --> 00:18:53.678 actually work 36 hours on the straight because you 297 00:18:53.678 --> 00:18:57.510 get stuck into something. Yeah. And it absorbs you. And then you go, 298 00:18:57.510 --> 00:19:01.219 I'm out for a week. And the other problem I have is that I've 299 00:19:01.219 --> 00:19:04.849 got, I think I've got a whole letterbox full of stuff I've 300 00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:08.635 almost finished. Yeah. I've recognised I've got a kind of a 301 00:19:08.635 --> 00:19:12.500 window of opportunity to start and finish something before 302 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:16.442 something else comes along. And I've got to really got to stop 303 00:19:16.442 --> 00:19:20.229 myself getting involved with that if I go with this and I've 304 00:19:20.229 --> 00:19:23.630 got to go. So I've got all these brainwaves, all these 305 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:27.417 entrepreneurial things I've been doing for the last 10, 20 306 00:19:27.417 --> 00:19:31.382 years, half finished. Yep. That's quite common. I have to say 307 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:35.329 the, the multiple different sort of special 308 00:19:35.329 --> 00:19:39.116 interests or hyperfixations and the real issue either with 309 00:19:40.062 --> 00:19:43.881 getting started on something that you don't want to do or getting something finished. I 310 00:19:43.977

--> 00:19:47.667 really identify with that. Once I'm in it, I'm in it. 311 00:19:48.405 --> 00:19:52.095 And then if I get distracted by something else or something breaks my 312 00:19:52.095 --> 00:19:55.977 hyperfocus, going back in to then finish it almost feels 313 00:19:55.977 --> 00:19:59.940 like torture. That is, that's the real, and I used to find that when 314 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:03.472 I had colleagues and worked with other people where If someone interrupted me, 315 00:20:04.195 --> 00:20:08.083 it would take me an hour, 2 hours, or even a day to go back 316 00:20:08.083 --> 00:20:11.007 to where I was because you can't just sit back at your desk and carry 317 00:20:11.023 --> 00:20:14.863 on. You've got to, you've got to replay the entire thing in your head to 318 00:20:14.879 --> 00:20:18.784 get back to where you left off. Where you were, yeah. Yeah. Nightmare. Absolute 319 00:20:18.784 --> 00:20:22.672 nightmare, isn't it? It's, yeah. Do you, I don't know if 320 00:20:22.672 --> 00:20:26.207 you're a fan of The Matrix, there's a bit in there which I 321 00:20:26.608 --> 00:20:30.395 related to quite quickly where I can't remember the 322 00:20:30.395 --> 00:20:34.258 character's name though, but she wanted to learn how to fly a helicopter. So they, 323 00:20:34.482 --> 00:20:38.425 they basically put the Apache helicopter training module into the machine and she went, 324 00:20:38.810 --> 00:20:42.785 right, now I can fly the helicopter. I've got this kind of brain that 325 00:20:42.913 --> 00:20:46.632 if I say, right, I want to do that, I'll go, and I'll 326 00:20:46.632 --> 00:20:49.934 absorb it and absorb it. I'll suck it, suck all of that in. At the 327 00:20:49.934 --> 00:20:53.797 end of it, I go, I could do that if I wanted to. Yeah. I 328 00:20:53.797 --> 00:20:56.217 don't want to any— I don't want to anymore right now. What else can we 329 00:20:56.217 --> 00:21:00.103 do? So I've always had this pick it apart and learn it and sort of 330 00:21:00.616 --> 00:21:04.470 feeling. Because that's how you end up as a kind of, you know, the 331 00:21:04.470 --> 00:21:07.762 old clichéd phrase, a jack of all trades and a master of none, is that 332 00:21:07.762 --> 00:21:11.695 idea. Like, I find lots of things endlessly fascinating, and I know a 333 00:21:11.856 --> 00:21:14.907 little bit about a lot of things. Yeah. But 334 00:21:15.870 --> 00:21:19.306 there's very few things that hold my interest enough that I want to know 335 00:21:20.751 --> 00:21:24.280 everything from A to Z. What are you like with the names and faces? Uh, 336 00:21:24.280 --> 00:21:27.920 worse as I've gotten older, I have to say. Yeah, when I was a 337 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.840 teacher, uh, for some weird reason I always used to remember kids' surnames 338 00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:35.720 better than their first names. So I would get to know their surnames. I had 339 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:37.800 to try— I was terrible. Like, that was one of the

things that I think 340 00:21:37.800 --> 00:21:40.440 made teaching really hard for me in the beginning, was when you're trying to do 341 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.760 behaviour management in a classroom, you can't remember children's names to tell them off or 342 00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:47.726 write them on the board. So, uh, I used to have to try 343 00:21:47.726 --> 00:21:51.625 and remember their surnames, and then the first name would come to me. But I 344 00:21:52.139 --> 00:21:54.401 live in fear of people. In fact, I had it the other day when I 345 00:21:54.401 --> 00:21:57.755 was in the office. I still work a day job, and I came outside and 346 00:21:57.755 --> 00:22:00.531 someone else was coming in, and they started chatting away to me like, oh, blah, 347 00:22:00.659 --> 00:22:04.510 blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yep. I had to actually have a 348 00:22:04.510 --> 00:22:07.543 little subtle look at their name badge to be like, I still don't know who 349 00:22:07.543 --> 00:22:10.431 you are. I still don't know why I know— why do you know me? But 350 00:22:10.431 --> 00:22:13.175 I have one of those jobs where I work now where lots of people do 351 00:22:13.175 --> 00:22:16.730 know me, but I don't necessarily know them, which is 352 00:22:16.730 --> 00:22:20.170 fascinating. People just come up and start chatting away. I suppose it's a bit like 353 00:22:20.170 --> 00:22:23.130 being a celebrity, isn't it? People just come up and start chatting away to you 354 00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:26.990 and you're like, yeah, I don't know who you are. I was at this 355 00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:30.010 networking function in London, I think it's an award ceremony or something, and someone came 356 00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:33.930 up to me and said, Joanne, and they could tell instantly that I 357 00:22:33.930 --> 00:22:37.850 had this— all I saw was this weird woman coming to give me a 358 00:22:37.850 --> 00:22:41.190 hug and it was like I had this look on my face. You don't remember 359 00:22:41.190 --> 00:22:45.050 me, do you? No, no, I don't. Sorry. 360 00:22:45.656 --> 00:22:49.607 And she went, I'm so sorry. No, no, give 361 00:22:49.607 --> 00:22:52.409 me some clues. We met, we talked last year, we sat next to each other, 362 00:22:52.425 --> 00:22:55.887 we were— no, sorry. And so I said to her, look, I, this happens to 363 00:22:55.887 --> 00:22:59.652 me. I very rarely remember people's names and faces 364 00:23:00.636 --> 00:23:04.346 outside of a certain window, which is probably about 30 seconds. It's literally 365 00:23:04.346 --> 00:23:07.836 sometimes 30 seconds. I said, look, tell me your name. 366 00:23:08.380 --> 00:23:11.520 Tell me how we met and I'll practise. I was going, and I said, right, 367 00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:14.840 Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer, whatever it was I was saying to 368 00:23:15.820 --> 00:23:18.300 her. And I, and I, at the end, before we, before I said, ah, see, 369 00:23:18.300 --> 00:23:22.140 I remembered your name. I've remembered your name. I tell you what, now 370 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:25.460 I've absolutely no idea who she is and what her name was or whatever, what 371 00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:29.320 the context was, but I do remember not remembering her. Yeah. And 372 00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:33.320 so it's, and I've learned that's me. And I 373 00:23:33.320 --> 00:23:37.210 say to people, look, I'm sorry. I find it very difficult to know 374 00:23:37.210 --> 00:23:41.210 names and faces, but my wife, it's incredible. She'll have a phone 375 00:23:41.210 --> 00:23:43.770 call with somebody, and at the end of every phone call, she says, oh, can 376 00:23:43.770 --> 00:23:47.630 I just take your name? And she never writes it down. And we were talking 377 00:23:47.630 --> 00:23:50.410 the other day about something. She said, oh yeah. I said, who was that person 378 00:23:50.410 --> 00:23:52.720 you spoke to about the other day? She said, oh, that was, she was Charlotte. 379 00:23:52.990 --> 00:23:56.510 I went, how do you remember that? She said, I just do. I said, 380 00:23:56.510 --> 00:23:59.710 I barely remember the phone call. I come out of a film, we go to 381 00:23:59.710 --> 00:24:03.140 Cineworld and see a lot of that. see a film, before I've got home in 382 00:24:03.140 --> 00:24:06.900 the car, I can't remember the film. It's like, 383 00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:10.200 it's like, but it's in there, but I just don't remember the detail. 384 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.590 Yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it? Like, and then, you know, that is a real thing. 385 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.420 People do struggle. I can't remember, face blindness is like the common 386 00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:22.040 term for it. There is another, there's a medical term. Prosopagnosia or something. Yeah, yeah, 387 00:24:22.040 --> 00:24:25.530 yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Where you struggle to remember names and faces. Fascinating. 388 00:24:26.767 --> 00:24:29.641 I met a lady who actually used to be a professional speaker talking about it, 389 00:24:30.637 --> 00:24:34.073 and she had probably had an extreme, more extreme version of it. I thought so 390 00:24:34.073 --> 00:24:37.750 at the time, but actually as I've got older, I suddenly realised that I've got 391 00:24:37.750 --> 00:24:41.555 exactly how she described it. And yeah, it's, 392 00:24:41.796 --> 00:24:45.730 it is. I see people remembering people. It's like my brain just 393 00:24:45.730 --> 00:24:48.668 goes, why do I need to remember your name? It's like, that's a bit of 394 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:52.617 trivial information I haven't got space for. Sorry. Too busy for this. So before 395 00:24:52.617 --> 00:24:55.229 we, before we press the record button, we were talking about AI. 396 00:24:56.624 --> 00:25:00.599 Um, how has AI had an impact on, on your neurospiciness, if you like? 397 00:25:01.445 --> 00:25:03.869 I'm a big fan. I have to say, I know that AI can be

a 398 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.860 bit of a controversial topic for places. And actually, I, um, 399 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:11.883 I had an Instagram follower who a couple of weeks ago, I had done a 400 00:25:11.883 --> 00:25:15.842 series of videos on something and I mentioned in one of those 401 00:25:15.874 --> 00:25:19.561 videos as a kind of a way to support your executive function. Sometimes I 402 00:25:19.561 --> 00:25:22.847 like will brain dump something into AI and ask it to, you know, 403 00:25:23.712 --> 00:25:26.854 put a to-do list together for me or something. It was a really subtle mention 404 00:25:26.854 --> 00:25:30.685 of AI, and this person took the time to comment on the post and say, 405 00:25:30.701 --> 00:25:34.323 oh, I'm gonna have to unfollow you actually, because I don't, I 406 00:25:34.371 --> 00:25:37.770 don't support people who, you know, support ecocide 407 00:25:38.218 --> 00:25:41.937 and, uh, and whatever. I was like, okay, thanks for letting me know. 408 00:25:42.402 --> 00:25:46.249 Lovely. Each their own. But I very much view it as an accessibility 409 00:25:46.249 --> 00:25:49.971 tool for myself. And the ideas that I 410 00:25:50.260 --> 00:25:54.226 am now able to bring into the world, still 411 00:25:54.274 --> 00:25:58.160 from my brain, but the, the executive function of being able to have that 412 00:25:58.208 --> 00:26:00.841 idea and then action all the steps that it takes to bring that into the 413 00:26:00.857 --> 00:26:04.229 world. I now have essentially a thought partner to be able to say, I've had 414 00:26:04.229 --> 00:26:07.183 this idea, I want it to look like this, I want people to be able 415 00:26:07.183 --> 00:26:09.832 to get this from it. What are the steps that I need to take to 416 00:26:09.832 --> 00:26:13.140 be able to make that happen? And then we can work through it together. Have 417 00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:16.736 I not thought of, you know, what are the pitfalls of this that I haven't 418 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:20.440 And yet being able to have those back and forth conversations has enabled me to 419 00:26:20.681 --> 00:26:24.658 essentially build my whole business because I've had somebody else to have 420 00:26:24.690 --> 00:26:28.651 that back and forth with. And when you're working by yourself as an entrepreneur, 421 00:26:30.126 --> 00:26:34.087 it can be a really lonely world to know, who do I ask for advice 422 00:26:34.087 --> 00:26:37.150 about this? Or how would I do this thing? Because it's impossible to know how 423 00:26:37.198 --> 00:26:40.934 to do all of the things that are involved with running a business. And so 424 00:26:40.967 --> 00:26:44.816 having AI there is a really useful tool. Yeah, I'm with, I'm 100% with you 425 00:26:44.816 --> 00:26:48.666 on that. And, uh, do you, I dunno if you watch MasterChef or— No. 426 00:26:49.708 --> 00:26:52.772 No, but you're aware of the cooking programmes, aren't you? I am, yeah. Right, MasterChef. 427 00:26:52.981

--> 00:26:55.820 And, uh, I don't watch it often, but I remember watching it once where one 428 00:26:55.820 --> 00:26:59.301 of the first rounds is they give everybody this laminated sheet of paper 429 00:27:00.135 --> 00:27:03.649 with the instructions and method of how to create this dish. 430 00:27:04.611 --> 00:27:07.867 And then the presenter or the expert creates the dish in front of them 431 00:27:08.637 --> 00:27:12.315 and says, right, there's your sheet. Go and make that, or 432 00:27:12.491 --> 00:27:16.396 maybe they do show them or don't show them. And then you see the diversity 433 00:27:16.428 --> 00:27:19.947 of delivery of that dish based on those instructions. 434 00:27:20.526 --> 00:27:23.466 And AI is no different. 50 people can 435 00:27:23.498 --> 00:27:26.326 prompt and drop stuff into AI. But 436 00:27:26.375 --> 00:27:30.038 it's about the method. It's about how you nurture that, how you 437 00:27:30.504 --> 00:27:34.377 interrogate, how you adopt and reroll it and try 438 00:27:34.409 --> 00:27:38.241 again. And I think There's as much skill in being able 439 00:27:38.241 --> 00:27:42.151 to use AI well as any skill. 440 00:27:42.442 --> 00:27:46.384 And I think that's where the augmentation happens, you know, the digital writing assistant, the 441 00:27:46.384 --> 00:27:49.279 augmentation, whatever it may be. And if you're poo-pooing it, 442 00:27:50.201 --> 00:27:53.937 then that's up to you. But I think there's a, the 443 00:27:53.937 --> 00:27:57.654 skill is having a partner and AI can be that 444 00:27:57.654 --> 00:28:01.597 partner. Yeah, very much so. And you're right in terms of the prompting, we hear 445 00:28:01.597 --> 00:28:04.981 a lot about AI slop and you know, it's very easy to just say, oh, 446 00:28:05.125 --> 00:28:08.572 give me this, and it will produce just any old generic stuff. 447 00:28:09.197 --> 00:28:12.387 But there is a real skill in being able to get it to produce what 448 00:28:12.483 --> 00:28:15.416 you want in the way that you want it to. And of course, the more 449 00:28:15.529 --> 00:28:19.199 that you interact, the better it learns 450 00:28:19.552 --> 00:28:22.870 your style, your voice, the things that you want, the output that you want. 451 00:28:23.896 --> 00:28:27.295 So there really is more to it than just opening a ChatGPT window and going, 452 00:28:27.327 --> 00:28:30.853 give me some social media ideas. There's far more to it than 453 00:28:31.238 --> 00:28:35.116 that. I don't know how you use it, but I've been using Claude and 454 00:28:35.116 --> 00:28:38.962 I've developed a few websites, my own, mainly my own sites 455 00:28:38.962 --> 00:28:42.727 and a few other things. At some point I had 4 or 5 different 456 00:28:42.727 --> 00:28:46.092 windows open developing 4 or 5 different websites 457 00:28:46.092 --> 00:28:49.858 simultaneously. And each of those windows probably had 458 00:28:49.858 --> 00:28:53.143 sub-agents fired off doing stuff as well. And I'm 459

00:28:53.143 --> 00:28:56.990 literally flipping between them, trying to keep track of 460 00:28:56.990 --> 00:29:00.092 it. Yeah. And a number of times, a number of times Claude came back to 461 00:29:00.092 --> 00:29:03.620 me and went, I don't understand. I'm like, oh, sorry, that prompt wasn't meant for 462 00:29:03.620 --> 00:29:06.190 you. That was meant for— I was cutting and pasting something into the wrong window. 463 00:29:06.260 --> 00:29:10.100 Sorry. I just think it's so fun. Like, that is a real special 464 00:29:10.100 --> 00:29:12.800 interest for me. I've always been a bit of a geek when it comes to 465 00:29:12.800 --> 00:29:16.780 technology. And so this has been like the last 18 months has been a real 466 00:29:16.780 --> 00:29:20.510 joyous time for me in terms of like really nurturing that. 467 00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.100 But being able to use it to, like you say, develop websites, build an app 468 00:29:24.100 --> 00:29:28.060 with it. I have— I've used it to essentially outsource my executive 469 00:29:28.060 --> 00:29:31.675 function. So the latest thing that I have built for myself as a project manager, 470 00:29:31.851 --> 00:29:35.447 yeah, I have got lots of information that feeds into a database. 471 00:29:36.186 --> 00:29:39.846 And then I have got, I've got agents who then 472 00:29:40.423 --> 00:29:44.260 can break tasks down into smaller chunks, can assign to-dos and 473 00:29:44.453 --> 00:29:48.161 deadline dates to it. And then I have got an agent that I converse with 474 00:29:48.209 --> 00:29:52.046 through Telegram, we text each other. And I can voice note this 475 00:29:52.142 --> 00:29:55.513 agent and it will tell, it's my project manager, it tells me what meetings I've 476 00:29:55.529 --> 00:29:59.476 got up today. What things are on my to-do list, what is coming up 477 00:29:59.476 --> 00:30:01.306 on my calendar that I need to be aware of, what I need to be 478 00:30:01.306 --> 00:30:05.220 prepping for, what deadlines I've missed. It will rearrange things for me. I can't 479 00:30:05.237 --> 00:30:08.173 do that today. Can you move it to Friday? Yes, no problem. It's like having 480 00:30:08.606 --> 00:30:12.088 a human project manager, but it's an AI. 481 00:30:12.601 --> 00:30:16.452 And the ability to hand over that mental 482 00:30:16.452 --> 00:30:20.078 load to something else so that I'm not the human in the loop. Well, I'm 483 00:30:20.078 --> 00:30:21.731 the human in the loop, but I'm not the human in the loop that is 484 00:30:21.827 --> 00:30:25.741 holding all of that, all of those dates and remembering all those things. allows 485 00:30:25.773 --> 00:30:29.765 me to then be so much more creative and know I've 486 00:30:29.781 --> 00:30:33.596 got, I've externalised that mental load to something else. And that has 487 00:30:33.628 --> 00:30:37.091 changed my life. I like the phrase human in the loop. I use that often. 488 00:30:37.235 --> 00:30:40.778 And that's the important bit is to, you are still in charge. 489 00:30:41.227 --> 00:30:45.074 You are still the person that makes the decisions. I remember seeing someone 490 00:30:45.074 --> 00:30:48.953 present on it a few years ago. And what they said was at the 491 00:30:49.017 --> 00:30:52.948 point where the other human is about to detect 492 00:30:52.948 --> 00:30:56.881 they're talking to AI, you need to seamlessly drop in 493 00:30:56.881 --> 00:31:00.542 yourself and be that human back. So it's working out at what 494 00:31:00.655 --> 00:31:04.653 point is the optimum point to grab hold 495 00:31:04.749 --> 00:31:08.442 of the responsibility again and what you can let free will. And that's the skill 496 00:31:08.442 --> 00:31:12.087 as well. Yeah, definitely. I think it's fascinating. 497 00:31:12.215 --> 00:31:16.037 Yeah. Well, if anyone's listening to this and they're neurodiverse and you're not using Claude, 498 00:31:16.856 --> 00:31:20.595 Other AIs are available, of course, and I do have Gemini. I 499 00:31:20.707 --> 00:31:24.270 do have this one. I do have probably most of the AIs because I run 500 00:31:24.270 --> 00:31:27.191 out of credits otherwise. So I've got them all over the place. 501 00:31:28.587 --> 00:31:31.796 One question I have for you is going back to 502 00:31:31.796 --> 00:31:35.311 your self-described autistic ADHD. 503 00:31:36.129 --> 00:31:39.628 What's the difference as far as you're concerned between autism and 504 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:43.862 ADHD or neurodiversity? Are they just parts of the bigger spectrum? For 505 00:31:43.862 --> 00:31:47.784 me personally, my experience is that the— for me, the ADHD is the 506 00:31:47.784 --> 00:31:51.706 excitable, fun-loving, adventurous part of myself that wants 507 00:31:51.706 --> 00:31:55.406 to do 50 things at once. And so like you could have 4 different 508 00:31:55.406 --> 00:31:59.180 Claude windows open doing different things at the same time. 509 00:31:59.180 --> 00:32:03.102 Well, this idea, this idea, this idea, what do I do first? This is 510 00:32:03.102 --> 00:32:06.950 exciting. And the autism part of me is the bit that lassoes that 511 00:32:06.950 --> 00:32:10.724 and keeps it in cheque and essentially goes, right, we need to 512 00:32:10.724 --> 00:32:14.572 remember. This, and we must remember to do this in order. And it 513 00:32:14.572 --> 00:32:18.494 kind of— and that is, I think, where they then start to fight with 514 00:32:18.494 --> 00:32:22.046 each other. And so, as I was saying earlier on, when I had my 515 00:32:22.046 --> 00:32:25.672 burnout, it was very much like the ADHD part of me burned out 516 00:32:25.672 --> 00:32:29.520 because suddenly it felt like autism was fronting. And autism 517 00:32:29.520 --> 00:32:33.146 was like, I do not want to be in the spotlight and be in charge 518 00:32:33.146 --> 00:32:36.846 of all of these decisions. I do not want to see people. I do not 519 00:32:36.846 --> 00:32:40.842 want to be, you know, the engine that is

running this ship. And so I 520 00:32:40.842 --> 00:32:44.616 wouldn't change my brain. I really wouldn't, because in some 521 00:32:44.616 --> 00:32:48.464 senses they balance each other out. And I don't know if that is, 522 00:32:48.464 --> 00:32:51.942 you know, that may well be a common ADHD experience. It's 523 00:32:51.942 --> 00:32:55.642 certainly my ADHD experience. But being able to experience 524 00:32:55.642 --> 00:32:59.638 things in extremes, whether that is joy or despair, to know that I 525 00:32:59.638 --> 00:33:03.486 feel things physically and emotionally at a far greater depth 526 00:33:03.486 --> 00:33:07.482 than what seems to be that of the general population. I like that. 527 00:33:07.482 --> 00:33:11.330 And I actually feel sad for people that do not get to experience 528 00:33:11.330 --> 00:33:15.178 the range of things that I do in terms of like those real highs of 529 00:33:15.178 --> 00:33:18.952 emotion that are then balanced out by the real lows. It's like 530 00:33:18.952 --> 00:33:22.578 experiencing the world in Technicolour. And I don't think 531 00:33:22.578 --> 00:33:26.513 everybody gets that experience of life. Excellent. I love that. I love that. 532 00:33:27.638 --> 00:33:30.690 Jenny, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you. And we yacked away 533 00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:34.574 for Probably 15, 20 minutes before I'll press the record button. It's a shame, 534 00:33:34.798 --> 00:33:38.168 it's a shame we have to, uh, you, you, yeah, you have to do other 535 00:33:38.168 --> 00:33:41.891 things, but how can people get hold of you? So I am 536 00:33:42.148 --> 00:33:45.999 all over the social media. My handle tends to be @audhdistically.me. 537 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.502 You'll have to look at the show notes for how that is spelled, but I 538 00:33:48.502 --> 00:33:51.807 am on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. I also have a 539 00:33:51.807 --> 00:33:55.691 Substack where my lots more longer form thoughts live. 540 00:33:56.108 --> 00:33:59.754 Um, I write on there on a reasonably regular basis. I have my own 541 00:33:59.802 --> 00:34:03.702 podcast, Autism, ADHD and Me, and Us Three, sorry, uh, which is kind 542 00:34:03.702 --> 00:34:07.280 of more about the parenting of neurodivergent children as a neurodivergent 543 00:34:07.377 --> 00:34:11.338 adult. Uh, my website. Yeah, I've got, I'm out there. 544 00:34:11.435 --> 00:34:14.653 If you Google my name, you'll find me. Right. That's the easiest thing to do, 545 00:34:14.686 --> 00:34:17.499 isn't it? Google your name. That's what I always say to people. If you can't 546 00:34:17.499 --> 00:34:20.374 find me on the first page of Google, you're not trying hard enough. Yeah. Jenny 547 00:34:20.406 --> 00:34:24.170 Lucas. L-U-C-A-S. That's it. Audhdistically Me. 548 00:34:24.218 --> 00:34:25.155 A-U-D-H-D-I-S-T-I-C-A-L-L-Y.me. 549 00:34:30.655 --> 00:34:34.538 So find you there, find you on LinkedIn, find you on Substack, 550 00:34:34.764 --> 00:34:38.113 and also in the show notes. Perfect. It's 551 00:34:38.113 --> 00:34:41.819 been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you. 552 00:34:42.606 --> 00:34:46.589 Cheers. Bye. Bye. As we bring this conversation 553 00:34:46.589 --> 00:34:50.258 to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to 554 00:34:50.258 --> 00:34:54.183 you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart To the 555 00:34:54.183 --> 00:34:57.681 cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a 556 00:34:57.681 --> 00:35:01.437 chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and 557 00:35:01.437 --> 00:35:05.106 become part of our ever-growing community driving 558 00:35:05.106 --> 00:35:09.030 real change. Share this journey with friends, family, 559 00:35:09.030 --> 00:35:12.955 and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. 560 00:35:12.955 --> 00:35:16.625 Got thoughts, storeys, or a vision to share? I'm all 561 00:35:16.625 --> 00:35:17.906 ears. Reach out to 562 00:35:17.906 --> 00:35:22.601 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, 563 00:35:22.601 --> 00:35:26.441 and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this 564 00:35:26.441 --> 00:35:30.366 is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return 565 00:35:30.366 --> 00:35:33.863 with more enriching narratives that challenge, 566 00:35:33.863 --> 00:35:37.618 inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more 567 00:35:37.618 --> 00:35:41.544 inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the 568 00:35:41.544 --> 00:35:42.312 next bite.