บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Clarity Within Complexity

--> 00:04:16.010 didn't. So it was seen as like a. 69 00:04:17.450 --> 00:04:21.130 Yeah. A threat to rigid, structured. Its establishment 70 00:04:21.290 --> 00:04:22.730 in. In the music world. 71 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:26.850 Is it the only brass that has a read, then? Is that. Is that it's. It's 72 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:27.290 unique? 73 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.370 No, there's a bunch of woodwinds. So, like a clarinet is also a 74 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:31.890 woodwind. 75 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:36.610 Yeah, but the sax is a brass instrument, whereas the clarinet's wooden or 76 00:04:37.010 --> 00:04:39.330 plastic these days, isn't it? Yeah. 77 00:04:39.330 --> 00:04:40.930 So it's made of. It's made of brass. 78 00:04:40.930 --> 00:04:41.570 But the. 79 00:04:41.570 --> 00:04:45.850 But the difference between brass and woodwind is actually about the 80 00:04:45.850 --> 00:04:49.890 mouthpiece. So a brass instrument has a full brass mouthpiece and a woodwind has a 81 00:04:49.890 --> 00:04:50.210 reed. 82 00:04:51.170 --> 00:04:53.970 Right. Okay. Okay. That's the difference. Wow. You see? 83 00:04:54.290 --> 00:04:55.010 There we go. 84 00:04:55.650 --> 00:04:57.570 This podcast is amazing. We're covering. This is. 85 00:04:57.570 --> 00:05:00.730 This is what people are coming for when they. When they sign up for 86 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:03.330 the. For the Inclusion Bites podcast. 87 00:05:03.810 --> 00:05:07.570 It is. Yeah. And it's. Well, we like to just do a bit of background on 88 00:05:07.570 --> 00:05:12.210 our. On the guest as well, rather than just launch into the work, if you 89 00:05:12.210 --> 00:05:16.050 like. Yeah, I like to get to know people. So one thing I loved 90 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:19.810 about. I pulled it out. Your superpower. Whole complexity and 91 00:05:19.810 --> 00:05:24.730 clarity. At the same time. And you nodded when I, when I said that was what's going to read 92 00:05:24.730 --> 00:05:26.850 out? What does that mean to you then? 93 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:31.810 I think complexity is about understanding that there's so many 94 00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:35.330 different ways to perceive a situation and perceive 95 00:05:35.330 --> 00:05:39.410 reality. So many paradigms, so many lenses that we can look through 96 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:44.730 that each reveal certain things, certain elements of what's real, certain 97 00:05:44.730 --> 00:05:49.290 choices, they point us to certain ideas of what is right and wrong, desirable, not 98 00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:54.210 desirable, because there's a lot going on. And then clarity is the ability 99 00:05:54.210 --> 00:05:58.010 to kind of maintain focus inside of all of that, 100 00:05:59.130 --> 00:06:03.610 to discern what we truly ought to be doing 101 00:06:03.930 --> 00:06:08.490 in a given moment. Just like to make it grounded, for example, like in the world of 102 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:13.170 organisational development, DEI and HR and all 103 00:06:13.170

--> 00:06:18.160 that. There's a lot of situations where if you take 104 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:23.080 a conflict, for example, and if you look through it from one perspective through a 105 00:06:23.080 --> 00:06:27.680 race based lens, you'd be like, oh, I can see how anti blackness is playing out 106 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:32.519 here. So you look through the anti blackness lens, you see that, but you move and you look through 107 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.360 the gender lens and you say, oh, there's something else happening. But then you switch and you look 108 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:41.320 through. I'm not going to look through an identity based lens. I'm really going to look at the structural power dynamics and the 109 00:06:41.320 --> 00:06:45.530 roles and responsibilities. I'm gonna see something else and then, okay, I'm not gonna look through any of 110 00:06:45.530 --> 00:06:49.850 those. I'm gonna look through a, like a psychological lens, like an internal family systems 111 00:06:49.850 --> 00:06:54.810 lens. I'm gonna see something else. You can keep seeing all these different lenses, which is great, 112 00:06:54.810 --> 00:06:59.730 but then at the end of the day there's a conflict of what are we gonna, how are we gonna move inside of it, what 113 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:04.450 are we gonna talk about and how do we maintain clarity to not get lost in all those 114 00:07:04.450 --> 00:07:09.010 possibilities. And some of it's about clarity about which lens to prioritise in a 115 00:07:09.010 --> 00:07:13.240 moment. Right. Sometimes it, it's really important to prioritise a race based 116 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.680 lens. And sometimes prioritising a race based lens is actually gonna escalate the conflict and 117 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:19.320 dehumanise everyone involved. 118 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:24.400 So it's a bit like being at the opticians where they swap the lens out and you're having to look at 119 00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:28.760 the scenario, evaluate each through each of the 120 00:07:29.080 --> 00:07:33.920 various lens or no lens, and extrapolate that and then swap in the 121 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:38.820 most important layers, lenses to, to achieve 122 00:07:38.820 --> 00:07:41.420 what you're trying to look for. More than one lens. 123 00:07:41.580 --> 00:07:42.020 Yeah. 124 00:07:42.020 --> 00:07:46.740 And being able to discern which one. And the question of like, well, which lens do we use at which 125 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:50.260 time always comes back to like, well, what are we really trying to achieve 126 00:07:50.260 --> 00:07:52.860 here? And being able to stay clear about that. 127 00:07:52.860 --> 00:07:57.780 Do you think that some people come with a preconceived or a pre baked lens 128 00:07:57.780 --> 00:08:01.900 scenario and the problem maybe is trying to get people to step back from that 129 00:08:02.490 --> 00:08:05.130 preconceived idea and look it through other, other 130 00:08:05.130 --> 00:08:05.770 perspectives? 131 00:08:06.650 --> 00:08:11.530 Yeah, I think we all have. We're all operating with some lenses that 132 00:08:11.530 --> 00:08:16.450 we're not even aware of. And I think the more aware of whatever lens we're bringing, the 133 00:08:16.450 --> 00:08:20.850 more we can ask the question of whether it's appropriate for the given 134 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:25.050 moment. If I don't even know what lens I'm looking through, then I can't ask if it's 135 00:08:25.050 --> 00:08:29.530 appropriate. And I think that, like in the realm of HR and DEI 136 00:08:29.690 --> 00:08:34.629 type practitioners, I think some of us make an assumption the lenses 137 00:08:34.629 --> 00:08:36.949 we use are good and appropriate in all 138 00:08:36.949 --> 00:08:41.749 circumstances. And after, you know, 10 years in the game, I've noticed that actually some of the 139 00:08:41.749 --> 00:08:46.589 lenses that I thought were going to be appropriate in all circumstances actually, actually weren't and 140 00:08:46.589 --> 00:08:51.509 were harmful in some of them. Some of the things, some of the lenses that I used to wear all 141 00:08:51.509 --> 00:08:56.309 the time because I thought that by wearing them I would be a good person or a moral person 142 00:08:56.389 --> 00:09:01.070 or work toward the world that I wanted to see. I realised that actually I 143 00:09:02.030 --> 00:09:06.950 cared more about what I looked like while I was wearing the lenses than what the lenses 144 00:09:06.950 --> 00:09:08.350 actually allowed me to see. 145 00:09:08.430 --> 00:09:13.230 Most people, I would say most people, all people generally come from a place 146 00:09:13.230 --> 00:09:17.470 of good. They come from a place where they genuinely believe they're right 147 00:09:18.510 --> 00:09:21.430 and that their perspective is the most valid. And 148 00:09:21.430 --> 00:09:26.390 that's. And then when you're engaging, you come with your own perceived idea 149 00:09:26.390 --> 00:09:30.360 that you're right and your perspective is valid. And it's really hard to try and 150 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:36.200 meet those two perspectives that are maybe diametrically opposed or in conflict 151 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.120 and better see our way through that. 152 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.960 Yeah, there's a tool that I use a lot in my work called 153 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:46.600 polarities. When there's those diametrically opposed perspectives or 154 00:09:46.920 --> 00:09:49.240 beliefs, and it's just a really basic 155 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:54.360 observation. If we enter the game when we've noticed that polarity 156 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:59.350 that feels diametrically opposed, if we enter that conversation with an 157 00:09:59.350 --> 00:10:03.590 assumption that each of our perspectives carries a gift and a risk, 158 00:10:04.230 --> 00:10:09.070 there's something beautiful in what you're saying. And there's something that if we over 159 00:10:09.070 -->

00:10:13.230 fixate and only use yours, a risk we're exposed to, and that's the same with 160 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:18.190 mine. And then the game Becomes okay, how can we unearth the gifts and 161 00:10:18.190 --> 00:10:23.180 risks of both of our perspectives in order to create something new 162 00:10:23.260 --> 00:10:26.860 that harnesses as much of the gifts and as little of the risks as 163 00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:31.820 possible? And then the way like that becomes really tricky is that 164 00:10:31.820 --> 00:10:36.140 as we're doing that we're also liable to judge each other 165 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:41.260 for the perspective. It's one thing for me to say I disagree with you and there's a risk in your 166 00:10:41.260 --> 00:10:45.660 perspective. Then there's a judgement that's like, and you're a bad person because you are holding that 167 00:10:45.660 --> 00:10:50.020 perspective. And then when we get in those judgments then we like escalate and it's 168 00:10:50.020 --> 00:10:54.800 nonsense. And then there's also underlying power dynamics that are based on all the 169 00:10:54.800 --> 00:10:58.480 different things from identities to structures to roles, whatever it 170 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:03.320 is. So if we enter and you have significantly more power 171 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:07.880 than I do, then and we don't negotiate that well, your 172 00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:11.560 perspective is going to dominate. We're going to get the gifts and the risks of your 173 00:11:11.560 --> 00:11:16.520 perspective. We're not going to get very many of the gifts of my perspective and we're not 174 00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:20.530 actually going to be able to play this human creation game as well as we could 175 00:11:20.530 --> 00:11:20.850 have. 176 00:11:22.130 --> 00:11:27.090 One thing I've noticed recently is quite a few people accuse people with other views 177 00:11:27.490 --> 00:11:31.650 of holding the power. This whole semi global 178 00:11:32.290 --> 00:11:36.610 anti wokeness that's occurred, it's because people who were seen as woke, 179 00:11:37.010 --> 00:11:41.970 marginalised suddenly have more power than the majority. And of course those 180 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:46.690 who are feeling marginalised and the woke people are looking back and going, hang on a minute, I haven't got 181 00:11:46.690 --> 00:11:49.410 power, I'm being oppressed, I'm trying to fight for my 182 00:11:49.650 --> 00:11:54.630 existence. And so there's often mismatch between who has the power and 183 00:11:54.630 --> 00:11:59.550 who perceives who has the power. And people are feeling threatened because they see it as a zero sum 184 00:11:59.550 --> 00:12:01.150 game. If you have it, I can't. 185 00:12:02.510 --> 00:12:07.204 Yeah, power is very odd and complex and most of us have very oversimplified 186 00:12:07.204 --> 00:12:11.972 understandings of how it operates because we have to understand like how it 187 00:12:11.972 --> 00:12:16.816 operates. My internal experience of how it operates and how I believe it then 188 00:12:16.816 --> 00:12:21.662 actually like interpersonally, how we actually are exerting power and then 189 00:12:21.662 --> 00:12:26.658 organizationally and systemically. But I think that one of the things that has 190 00:12:26.658 --> 00:12:31.275 a lot of power in a lot of different areas is the ability to cast oneself as a 191 00:12:31.275 --> 00:12:36.194 victim, cast someone else as a threat or an oppressor and then behave as if your 192 00:12:36.194 --> 00:12:39.525 actions toward your presumed oppressor are thereby 193 00:12:39.525 --> 00:12:44.142 justified. It happens everywhere the mo like in most situations, if I can 194 00:12:44.142 --> 00:12:48.909 convince all the People around me or enough people around me that I'm the one 195 00:12:48.909 --> 00:12:53.603 that's the victim, then I can kind of do whatever I want and nobody's really 196 00:12:53.603 --> 00:12:57.389 gonna. Nobody's really gonna check me. And you can see that, 197 00:12:57.389 --> 00:13:01.249 right? The anti wokeness is a. And American, you know, kind of 198 00:13:01.249 --> 00:13:03.898 Trumpism. And MAGA is absolutely a victim 199 00:13:03.898 --> 00:13:06.396 narrative. Their whole idea is we are at 200 00:13:06.396 --> 00:13:11.318 threat. Those people over there are taking power, those people over there are 201 00:13:11.318 --> 00:13:15.252 getting something out of us, therefore we ought to attack or do 202 00:13:15.252 --> 00:13:19.870 something. And actually like, really interesting on an organisational 203 00:13:19.870 --> 00:13:24.639 level. You know, I work, most of my work is in kind of American leftist social 204 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:29.257 justice kind of spaces. We actually do the same thing in our organ in those 205 00:13:29.257 --> 00:13:33.649 organisations, right. You have somebody who says, I'm being treated 206 00:13:33.649 --> 00:13:38.496 inequitably, I'm being treated unjustly, that boss has too much power over, 207 00:13:38.496 --> 00:13:43.492 over me. If they can then get people to buy into that narrative, oftentimes they 208 00:13:43.492 --> 00:13:48.109 can do a lot of things. Sometimes it's really accurate and sometimes they 209 00:13:48.109 --> 00:13:52.347 become really disruptive and sometimes aggressive and sometimes 210 00:13:52.347 --> 00:13:57.117 problematic and violent themselves because they believe that they are the 211 00:13:57.117 --> 00:14:01.659 victim. So this idea of like the difference between this victim mindset 212 00:14:01.659 --> 00:14:06.504 wielded for power and like true victimisation is something that it's really 213 00:14:06.504 --> 00:14:07.791 hard to tease apart. 214 00:14:08.930 --> 00:14:13.910 Yeah, I see more of it where people who hold the views 215 00:14:13.910 --> 00:14:18.750 you were talking about, the MAGA and the. Those sort of views really truly believe that 216 00:14:18.750 --> 00:14:23.630 they are the victims. We see it,

the rise of the manosphere, the rise of 217 00:14:23.630 --> 00:14:28.230 toxic masculinity. Women are oppressing men. We're seeing a lot of that in young 218 00:14:28.390 --> 00:14:32.790 boys now, probably in the US as well as the uk. And it's this belief that 219 00:14:34.710 --> 00:14:38.480 people are losing power or losing someone else that holds control over 220 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:38.800 them. 221 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:44.466 Yeah, yeah, I think the, That's a. You know, my read of all of that is that like, 222 00:14:44.466 --> 00:14:49.335 if you go into like the polarity idea, right, If I interact with that and say, 223 00:14:49.335 --> 00:14:54.126 okay, there's something real that they're saying, there's some gift here 224 00:14:54.126 --> 00:14:57.449 that they're trying to bring and there's some risk, 225 00:14:57.449 --> 00:15:02.163 okay. At the same time, if I take the pause and say, all right, I'm not gonna 226 00:15:02.163 --> 00:15:06.644 judge them, I'm not gonna just be like those wackadoodles, those evil 227 00:15:06.644 --> 00:15:11.513 people, even though I'm aware of the risk. Because if I, if I don't check that 228 00:15:11.513 --> 00:15:16.460 manosphere belief structure, right, what we're actually advocating for is 229 00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:21.329 like a really violent form of patriarchy that's terrible to queer and Trans 230 00:15:21.329 --> 00:15:26.044 people, terrible to women, ends up controlling bodies and actually then 231 00:15:26.044 --> 00:15:30.914 becomes terrible to the males and the men as well as their identities become 232 00:15:30.914 --> 00:15:33.388 collapsed into these kind of shells of 233 00:15:33.388 --> 00:15:38.180 themselves. And then it also gives them an excuse to, to kind of treat earth 234 00:15:38.180 --> 00:15:42.740 and not earth itself and non human inhabitants as objects for their own 235 00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:45.986 desires. In the same way. It's. It's kind of gross, 236 00:15:45.986 --> 00:15:49.697 actually. The gross. You heard me. That's the judgement, 237 00:15:49.697 --> 00:15:53.638 right? What I was before was, okay, those are the risks of that 238 00:15:53.638 --> 00:15:58.043 thing. But then I went gross and like, okay, there, that's more of the 239 00:15:58.043 --> 00:16:02.911 judgement. But there's a gift. They're actually, I think they're actually 240 00:16:02.911 --> 00:16:07.627 really trying to point us to, which is like first in the United States, the 241 00:16:07.627 --> 00:16:12.573 sense of, right, the sense of loss that they're experiencing, I think is very 242 00:16:12.573 --> 00:16:17.056 real, right? There was a. There's a whole generation of people who are 243 00:16:17.056 --> 00:16:20.148 growing up essentially like rooted, what is the 244 00:16:20.148 --> 00:16:24.707 word? Rootless, right? They don't have a place to ground their sense of 245 00:16:24.707 --> 00:16:28.415 self. They don't have their place to ground their sense of 246 00:16:28.415 -->

00:16:32.820 identity. It's being attacked, it's being undercut from all sides, 247 00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:37.690 right? So because you have a kind of capitalist patriarchal narrative that 248 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:42.327 says you're not worth anything unless you have high status, high money, 249 00:16:42.327 --> 00:16:45.186 sexually engaged with a high status female, 250 00:16:45.186 --> 00:16:50.133 right? All of these things, but then makes all of those incredibly scarce and 251 00:16:50.133 --> 00:16:54.616 incredibly hard to access, especially though like money and status, 252 00:16:54.616 --> 00:16:57.167 right? So they're like, okay, what is my 253 00:16:57.167 --> 00:17:01.574 worth? What am I doing? And then they go to the left and you know, to the 254 00:17:01.574 --> 00:17:06.443 political left. And as a white guy who has spent, you know, more than a decade 255 00:17:06.443 --> 00:17:09.535 in leftist spaces, especially years ago, it was 256 00:17:09.535 --> 00:17:14.405 hard. A lot of side eye, right? A lot of scepticism, a lot of having to swallow 257 00:17:14.405 --> 00:17:19.272 other people's projections. And then the left built this idea of what a good 258 00:17:19.272 --> 00:17:23.910 man is. And the good man is actually very quiet, always in a support role, 259 00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:28.702 always listening, always. And then, and then the left like really went far 260 00:17:28.702 --> 00:17:33.648 into a very kind of like old school original sin narrative, which was like, if 261 00:17:33.648 --> 00:17:38.442 you're, if you're a white, if you're a guy, if you're straight, you are born 262 00:17:38.442 --> 00:17:41.224 into your role as a problem because of these 263 00:17:41.224 --> 00:17:45.477 structures. And because of that, what we expect of you is to kind of 264 00:17:45.477 --> 00:17:50.037 constantly apologise and make yourself small and believe that you are 265 00:17:50.037 --> 00:17:53.052 inherently sinning by virtue of your embodied 266 00:17:53.052 --> 00:17:57.843 existence. It was very. And then, okay, like you go over there as a guy, it's 267 00:17:57.843 --> 00:18:01.322 not really easy to find belonging it's not really easy 268 00:18:01.322 --> 00:18:04.105 to. To find it. And. And then in that vacuum, 269 00:18:04.105 --> 00:18:09.051 right? Then people come and they say, okay, men and boys, you're lost, you're 270 00:18:09.051 --> 00:18:12.606 hurting, you feel abandoned, you feel at risk, you feel 271 00:18:12.606 --> 00:18:17.475 scared. All those feelings incredibly real. And now we get a narrative that 272 00:18:17.475 --> 00:18:19.715 then takes that and moves that into 273 00:18:19.715 --> 00:18:24.506 something. I think there's a lot of risks with the narrative, but I think if 274 00:18:24.506 --> 00:18:29.298 you look underneath it, I think what you see is like this big vacuum and pain 275 00:18:29.298 --> 00:18:34.090 that some of us who are trying to create a world based on more like, you know, 276

00:18:34.090 --> 00:18:38.804 liberatory, feminist type principles, we left that vacuum there in some 277 00:18:38.804 --> 00:18:43.753 ways, in the way that we organised ourselves. We didn't strategize toward it 278 00:18:43.753 --> 00:18:44.420 as much as. 279 00:18:45.290 --> 00:18:49.690 Yeah, no, I think the other thing is that we are in a world now where 280 00:18:50.330 --> 00:18:54.970 influencers can monetize their influence and people 281 00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:59.050 follow them. And so we look at TikTok, YouTube, whatever platform you're using, 282 00:19:00.410 --> 00:19:02.930 people sell a brand and they sell a 283 00:19:02.930 --> 00:19:07.850 perspective. And if you're feeling disenfranchised in any way from, 284 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:11.750 as you say, maybe these ideals, who are what a man should 285 00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:14.990 be. And you. Hang on, hang on a minute. That doesn't sound like me, but this person 286 00:19:14.990 --> 00:19:18.350 does. And you can very easily get sucked into that world, can't 287 00:19:18.350 --> 00:19:18.590 you? 288 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:23.550 Yeah, and it doesn't. And there's this, like, really deep, I think, internal 289 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:26.470 attunement and discernment that we have to 290 00:19:26.470 --> 00:19:29.790 have. I'll just say, like, as a straight white guy, because 291 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:34.430 every. Every thought that I've ever heard somebody on the manosphere 292 00:19:34.430 --> 00:19:38.280 articulate is a thought that I have had in my own mind, 293 00:19:39.320 --> 00:19:42.240 right? Everyone, Right, the. About what 294 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.040 it. What it means to be a man and how I ought to be and what I'm entitled to and how people 295 00:19:47.040 --> 00:19:50.520 should treat me. All of those thoughts are things that have run through my 296 00:19:50.520 --> 00:19:55.280 head. So I have to be in a practise of discerning what is 297 00:19:55.280 --> 00:19:58.760 really, really true for me and who do I really want to be 298 00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:02.360 otherwise? Somebody outside. I think it's a lot of what's happening, 299 00:20:02.360 --> 00:20:07.260 right? Somebody outside of me who says a thought out loud that 300 00:20:07.260 --> 00:20:10.820 I have had inside but I have thought is a bad or shameful 301 00:20:10.820 --> 00:20:14.260 thought. They've now just given me permission to identify with the 302 00:20:14.260 --> 00:20:19.020 thought. So then what we have is this very interesting thing, right? I'm sitting here having thoughts, and that group of 303 00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:22.140 people over there on the left is telling me I'm bad for having the 304 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:26.100 thoughts. And that group of people over there is telling me I'm normal and I'm good for having the 305 00:20:26.100 --> 00:20:31.060 thoughts. And unless I have like an incredible level of moral clarity, what am I going to 306 00:20:31.060 --> 00:20:34.630 do? I'm going to say, forget you guys, I'm going to accept 307 00:20:34.630 --> 00:20:39.590 myself. They're telling me it's okay. I'm going over there, I'm going to find belonging, I'm going to find 308 00:20:39.590 --> 00:20:42.670 place, I'm going to find meaning, I'm going to find purpose over 309 00:20:42.670 --> 00:20:47.110 there. If I go over there, I'm going to find exclusion and side eye and 310 00:20:47.110 --> 00:20:51.870 scepticism. It's actually like a challenging thing to navigate and I think it's 311 00:20:51.870 --> 00:20:56.510 cool because there are people who are very aware of this and they're trying to build that space 312 00:20:56.670 --> 00:21:01.630 that's both kind of morally clear and also centred 313 00:21:01.630 --> 00:21:06.030 on creating like a belonging for people to navigate this in a better 314 00:21:06.030 --> 00:21:06.350 way. 315 00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:10.510 Yeah. That sense of belonging you talked about, it's. It's a bit like osmosis, isn't 316 00:21:10.510 --> 00:21:15.470 it? You're always going to go to the migrate to the point of less salinity if you like, and try and even it 317 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:20.270 out. So you're going to always permeate across to what resonates where you feel most 318 00:21:20.270 --> 00:21:23.150 comfortable, where you can be yourself, your thoughts 319 00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:28.030 align. If you're having to fit yourself into the other perspective, you're always going to feel uncomfortable, always 320 00:21:28.030 --> 00:21:30.870 going to feel threatened, always going to feel you're masking and 321 00:21:31.030 --> 00:21:34.070 covering. If you're going that way, feeling free this 322 00:21:34.070 --> 00:21:37.550 way. So, yeah, our affinity group builds amongst that as 323 00:21:37.550 --> 00:21:38.870 well. Yeah. 324 00:21:38.870 --> 00:21:43.830 And I think it's also like, what part of the self is that space 325 00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:48.830 resonating with? Because parts of me are really comfortable in some 326 00:21:48.830 --> 00:21:53.350 spaces. Like I've never been in a space where I'm like, okay, every 327 00:21:53.350 --> 00:21:56.190 single part of me feels really comfortable and really welcome 328 00:21:56.190 --> 00:22:00.490 here. Some spaces I bring out something, some spaces I bring out another 329 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:04.890 thing. And I think we all have different parts and different needs that we're 330 00:22:04.890 --> 00:22:09.290 navigating and those are drawing us around and it's 331 00:22:09.290 --> 00:22:14.169 really. Yeah, it's really fascinating. And I think that people then go to a place where some 332 00:22:14.169 --> 00:22:18.970 part of them that feels like has not had a place suddenly feels like it has 333 00:22:18.970 --> 00:22:23.890 a place. And then they can often fully identify with that and they're like, okay, this is me, this is the 334 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:28.850 real me. And then interestingly enough, they'll then start absorbing all

of the other norms in 335 00:22:28.850 --> 00:22:32.710 that where that part of them feels belonging and then get 336 00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:37.390 confused. That's actually one of the things that happened to me years ago when I really, like, was moving into 337 00:22:37.390 --> 00:22:40.630 queer community. There's a time where I was wearing a dress, wearing high 338 00:22:40.630 --> 00:22:45.350 heels. That's how I was being in the world. And part of parts of me when I did that felt 339 00:22:45.350 --> 00:22:49.310 super reflected and super cared for and super seen in a way that they 340 00:22:49.310 --> 00:22:53.990 hadn't. And then I was in a very particular community, a very particular geography, and I 341 00:22:53.990 --> 00:22:58.240 noticed what I was doing was all of a sudden I was scared of being excluded from that 342 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.920 community. So I would just say all the things that would let me stay and I wouldn't challenge any of the norms 343 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.560 there. I wouldn't. There were parts of myself I wouldn't bring in the same way in any 344 00:23:06.560 --> 00:23:09.240 community. And then I kind of 345 00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:12.600 kept. So that's one of the reasons why I keep moving around through so many different 346 00:23:12.840 --> 00:23:14.120 places. It's fascinating. 347 00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:19.720 Yeah, I hear you. I mean, certainly the community, the queer community, the part of it 348 00:23:20.120 --> 00:23:22.890 I. You could. You could argue I'm aligned 349 00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:27.690 to. Has its own rule set, has its own mantras, has its own, you know, dare 350 00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:32.610 say ideology that people talk about. And sometimes you have to sort of step back and go, hang on a minute, 351 00:23:32.610 --> 00:23:36.929 I'm not drinking that Kool Aid. This is not. That's. That's not. That's not me, that's 352 00:23:36.929 --> 00:23:40.130 you. And I actually have a different view on this than you do. And you're 353 00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:45.050 right. If you're not careful, you get ostracised or shunned out of that community into this 354 00:23:45.050 --> 00:23:49.370 no man's land where you're not. You don't fit anywhere. And so you're desperate to hang onto 355 00:23:49.370 --> 00:23:54.010 it. So you believe what people believe. I think it takes a brave person to be able to go, 356 00:23:54.010 --> 00:23:56.010 actually, I'm not buying all of that. 357 00:23:57.050 --> 00:23:57.490 Yeah. 358 00:23:57.490 --> 00:24:01.650 And I think some of what we're talking right now is about the relationship between power and 359 00:24:01.650 --> 00:24:05.170 belonging. Because we all need belonging so deeply, 360 00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:09.890 right? There's psychological, emotional needs and there's still the very real material and 361 00:24:09.890 --> 00:24:14.450 physical needs for folks. And it's coming from an embodied history of, like, if you were 362 00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:18.090 excluded from the tribe and you had to feed yourself, that was it, 363 00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:22.490 Right? So we need this belonging. And then it means that whoever, whatever 364 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:27.250 ideology or structure then brokers that belonging has a 365 00:24:27.250 --> 00:24:32.130 tremendous amount of power over us. And that's, I think, one of 366 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:36.930 the reasons why some of navigating some, like, complex and nuanced DEI 367 00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:39.650 stuff in organisations can be really, really 368 00:24:39.650 --> 00:24:44.090 tender. Because if, like, I've seen a number, like in one 369 00:24:44.570 --> 00:24:49.130 number of groups, I'll think of one in Particular like there was a whole bunch of staff 370 00:24:49.290 --> 00:24:54.210 who were saying that, you know, there's a toxic power structure and it's a white supremacist power structure and kind of bringing 371 00:24:54.210 --> 00:24:59.170 that analysis. And then the leader of this, the kind of director of this organisation 372 00:24:59.170 --> 00:25:03.850 is a woman of colour who had a good analysis, was like, I actually don't think that is 373 00:25:04.010 --> 00:25:08.850 really the best way to understand this. It creates this moment for that leader 374 00:25:08.850 --> 00:25:13.340 where it's like, oh, to push back and say, no, 375 00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:16.220 that's not the way we're gonna understand this in this 376 00:25:16.220 --> 00:25:21.060 circumstance. Daf, you're actually using that narrative to 377 00:25:21.060 --> 00:25:24.620 exercise power against me that you're not being accountable 378 00:25:24.620 --> 00:25:28.140 for. For that person to do that is this 379 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:34.140 deep challenge because they're gonna, they're gonna feel 380 00:25:34.620 --> 00:25:39.390 a belonging threat. They might even get fired over it. If they can convince the board that this 381 00:25:39.390 --> 00:25:43.790 person is white supremacist, at the very least they're going to feel a severing of 382 00:25:43.790 --> 00:25:48.390 relationships and a stark question to their soul of like, hang on, am I actually 383 00:25:48.950 --> 00:25:52.790 doing this bad thing? It's way easier psychologically to just go along 384 00:25:52.790 --> 00:25:55.990 with. Yeah, you're right, it is white supremacist. It's actually way 385 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:00.910 easier. So then you're in this fascinate. This group is in this fascinating moment where there's people who have 386 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:05.740 less structural power, role based power because their staff, 387 00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:10.460 kind of junior staff, the CEO has more structural power, has more 388 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:15.420 informational power, has more connections to people. But then the people, the staff 389 00:26:15.820 --> 00:26:19.219 are saying that the CEO has way more power because they do have some 390 00:26:19.219 --> 00:26:24.060 forms. But

actually what's happening is the staff are exercising the most influential amount of power 391 00:26:24.060 --> 00:26:28.780 by shaping a narrative and using ideology to create a sphere of belonging and then threaten 392 00:26:28.780 --> 00:26:33.710 someone with that. And they're not aware that that's actually exactly 393 00:26:33.710 --> 00:26:38.550 how they're using power because they're so convinced the other person is the person who has power over 394 00:26:38.550 --> 00:26:41.270 them. Right. So. And that's what I mean by like the complexity and 395 00:26:41.270 --> 00:26:45.870 clarity. It's like all of it's happening all at the same 396 00:26:45.870 --> 00:26:50.630 time. And then they're in a room and they're. And we're having a meeting and we're trying to figure out what the 397 00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:55.430 budget's gonna be and how are we gonna talk to each other. How are we gonna actually then move forward 398 00:26:55.510 --> 00:26:57.750 given all of that swirl of dynamics? 399 00:26:57.830 --> 00:27:02.610 It's fascinating. I'm. This is a great perspective on a dynamic I 400 00:27:02.610 --> 00:27:07.570 probably hadn't appreciated the collective power versus the individual power and the 401 00:27:07.570 --> 00:27:11.170 collective power is far more influential. Even when you look at 402 00:27:11.170 --> 00:27:16.130 the. In the politics, the collective power of the communities out 403 00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:20.290 there shape the political agenda nationally, 404 00:27:20.290 --> 00:27:24.890 maybe. Certainly we look at some of the influences in the political scene in the US and the UK 405 00:27:25.700 --> 00:27:29.860 around religion, Christianity, those sort of things. There are collective bodies that 406 00:27:29.860 --> 00:27:34.540 infl. That will power, structural power, to influence 407 00:27:34.540 --> 00:27:36.340 how people are going to react by. 408 00:27:40.420 --> 00:27:42.500 The narratives that come out, the influence that way. 409 00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:47.100 So powers take so many different. So many different forms and 410 00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:49.700 expresses it itself in so many different ways. 411 00:27:49.780 --> 00:27:53.780 Yeah. And then you've got energy, oil, money. Well, there's other dynamics as 412 00:27:53.780 --> 00:27:54.020 well. 413 00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:57.060 Yeah. All these different forms of power. 414 00:27:58.180 --> 00:28:03.100 When I read out your bio, the word mystic was in there. So how does mystic fit 415 00:28:03.100 --> 00:28:04.100 into your psyche? 416 00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:07.515 There's like a moral sense and an epistemological 417 00:28:07.515 --> 00:28:11.087 sense. I think the epistemological sense, like way of 418 00:28:11.087 --> 00:28:15.770 knowing. I think you're seeing it in the way that I'm expressing myself 419 00:28:15.770 --> 00:28:19.978 now. Right. I'm. I have this really strong value for seeing many 420 00:28:19.978 --> 00:28:24.903 dimensions of something while knowing that I'll never be able to get to the 421 00:28:24.903 --> 00:28:29.748 essential, objective truth of that thing. And then kind of also from, you 422 00:28:29.748 --> 00:28:34.512 know, my lineage and tradition, that first thing that I did where I said, 423 00:28:34.512 --> 00:28:39.435 you know, when you. When I meet a perspective, the first question is, where 424 00:28:39.435 --> 00:28:43.882 is the light inside of this perspective? Where is the gift inside of 425 00:28:43.882 --> 00:28:48.806 this? And how can I find it and draw it out to learn from it and to reflect it to 426 00:28:48.806 --> 00:28:53.572 the person? That is like a kind of comes from. Comes from that lineage and 427 00:28:53.572 --> 00:28:56.670 then out of. More like straight to the guts of it 428 00:28:56.670 --> 00:29:01.354 there. I think we all are faced with a question of what are we ultimately 429 00:29:01.354 --> 00:29:05.247 concerned with? This is language from my theologian, Paul 430 00:29:05.247 --> 00:29:09.615 Tillich. What are we ultimately concerned with when we're making 431 00:29:09.615 --> 00:29:13.744 decisions? What are we actually driving. Driving toward when 432 00:29:13.744 --> 00:29:18.429 I. And consciously or unconsciously, you know, when I choose to put on a 433 00:29:18.429 --> 00:29:21.685 perspective, what am I trying to achieve with the 434 00:29:21.685 --> 00:29:26.210 perspective? What am I actually about? And I think I'm on a journey of 435 00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:31.132 asking that question to myself over and over to try to get deeper and deeper 436 00:29:31.132 --> 00:29:35.818 down into a core essence of what I consider the soul and say, like, well, 437 00:29:35.818 --> 00:29:40.583 what I'm really concerned with is my soul's relationship to reality and 438 00:29:40.583 --> 00:29:44.791 all and a sense of sacredness. That's what I'm really concerned 439 00:29:44.791 --> 00:29:49.635 with. So now if I. If I'm going to use a feminist analysis, I'm going to say, 440 00:29:49.635 --> 00:29:54.400 is the feminist analysis in this particular context allowing my soul to 441 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.925 breathe and repair its relationships with all of reality and people 442 00:29:58.925 --> 00:30:03.769 around me, or is it not? And then kind of the mystic senses, the sense that, 443 00:30:03.769 --> 00:30:08.217 that like in an experiential way it is possible for us to reach these 444 00:30:08.217 --> 00:30:12.904 moments of like deep bliss and deep awe. Those moments where like, oh my 445 00:30:12.904 --> 00:30:17.430 gosh, everything makes sense and is imbued with sacredness and with 446 00:30:17.430 --> 00:30:22.195 love. Suddenly all of the pain in my life makes sense because of where I am 447 00:30:22.195 --> 00:30:27.119 now. I understand like these glimpses of, of like true deep sacredness and 448 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:31.963 holiness, that those are the reference points I have for like what I hope I 449 00:30:31.963 -->

00:30:35.376 can, how I can live and how I hope everyone and you can 450 00:30:35.376 --> 00:30:40.220 live. Like, my hope of the world that we're trying to create is that you can 451 00:30:40.220 --> 00:30:45.144 experience that sense of like deep meaning and belonging to the cosmos and 452 00:30:45.144 --> 00:30:50.068 safety and soul and love and awe. That you can experience that as much as, as 453 00:30:50.068 --> 00:30:53.561 possible and that we remove all barriers to access to 454 00:30:53.561 --> 00:30:55.069 that. That's the game. 455 00:30:56.350 --> 00:31:00.470 Sometimes the search for that can be, can be quite exhausting mentally, can't 456 00:31:00.470 --> 00:31:05.430 it? Because you're, you're constantly looking for meaning in everything, but you're 457 00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:10.290 trying to second guess yourself. Sometimes you're trying to find the ultimate answer to the 458 00:31:10.290 --> 00:31:13.770 ultimate question. And sometimes there is no answer, it just 459 00:31:13.770 --> 00:31:16.170 is. Yeah. Yeah. 460 00:31:16.170 --> 00:31:20.930 I think that the need to know and the need to 461 00:31:21.090 --> 00:31:24.450 constantly have peak experiences 462 00:31:26.530 --> 00:31:31.410 and the like journey of doubt and angst is like, 463 00:31:33.090 --> 00:31:37.250 well known to be part of the, like part of the terrain 464 00:31:37.730 --> 00:31:41.650 of trying to, to, to find 465 00:31:41.650 --> 00:31:46.530 that. You know, if we want to get all the way into the like spirituality and psychology like that 466 00:31:46.530 --> 00:31:50.450 People have different teachings about how to navigate that. But I definitely experience it a 467 00:31:50.450 --> 00:31:55.010 lot. Right. I have a lot of my own personal experience of it is like the oftentimes the closer 468 00:31:55.330 --> 00:32:00.170 I get to what I feel like is a life that's truly aligned with my, my purpose 469 00:32:00.170 --> 00:32:05.020 and my place. The more painful, more pain I feel because I'm, 470 00:32:05.260 --> 00:32:07.900 I'm so close, but I can feel that I'm not there. 471 00:32:08.860 --> 00:32:09.220 Right. 472 00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:14.140 And that, that itself is a sense of like, angst for me, that's definitely part of my, part of 473 00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:16.700 the. Part of the set of knots I'm untangling in my life. 474 00:32:17.340 --> 00:32:21.900 I remember looking back at my life 10, 10 or so years ago, where I felt I 475 00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:26.700 was. I. I call it the vortex of confusion or the Bermuda Triangle where you, 476 00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:31.020 you go into this zone and there's no up, there's no down, there's no left, there's no 477 00:32:31.020 --> 00:32:35.220 right. You're just spinning and tumbling and you've kind of in that 478 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:40.180 mode. You're mentally all over the place. You've got no clarity and you've 479 00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:43.300 got. You've almost got two X's, because staying there is not an 480 00:32:43.300 --> 00:32:48.180 option. Escape the other side with clarity or bottle it and go back 481 00:32:48.580 --> 00:32:52.900 knowing full well you've got to come back into the vortex to get to the other side another 482 00:32:52.900 --> 00:32:57.880 time. So what do you do? Do you stay? Do you go? And I remember the only way 483 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:01.000 I could get to the other side and get out was to stop 484 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:04.800 overthinking. I almost had to say to myself, I am. This 485 00:33:04.800 --> 00:33:09.360 is. I don't have to find an answer. I don't have to explain it to you, me or 486 00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:14.080 anybody. Just have to say I am so I can leave the door and that 487 00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:18.440 becomes my new reality. Which is fine. I'm trying to question how I got 488 00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:23.310 there. It's just put myself back in the vortex. I've learned over the years that sometimes 489 00:33:23.310 --> 00:33:25.510 you don't have to have the answer. Just accept. 490 00:33:25.990 --> 00:33:27.670 Yeah, there's this space. 491 00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:29.430 How does that fit into your model? 492 00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:34.220 I resonate with that On a. On a personal. Like a personal level of like, 493 00:33:34.220 --> 00:33:39.010 not being fixated in the mind and the need to understand or control and 494 00:33:39.010 --> 00:33:43.056 reduce the universe to the size of my own ideas is part of the 495 00:33:43.056 --> 00:33:46.440 path. That's something that feels really true to 496 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.900 me. I also was laughing. I was like smiling as you were, as you were 497 00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:54.782 talking about it. Because the way that you map that out is 498 00:33:54.782 --> 00:33:58.581 so. Is so much one of the particular interpretations of 499 00:33:58.581 --> 00:34:02.956 a. Of the Exodus story in the Hebrew Bible. Even to the right, you 500 00:34:02.956 --> 00:34:07.828 leave. You leave a place of constriction. And we don't go from a place of 501 00:34:07.828 --> 00:34:12.618 constriction into a place of freedom. We actually go into, in Hebrew, 502 00:34:12.618 --> 00:34:15.260 called the midbar, which is a desert or 503 00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:19.057 wilderness. But it's also known as midbar is a desert or 504 00:34:19.057 --> 00:34:22.772 wilderness. Midaber is both speak and from where it is 505 00:34:22.772 --> 00:34:27.726 spoken. So the wilderness from where it is where truth is spoken is where 506 00:34:27.726 --> 00:34:32.433 we go. And then the name, the way that kind of the source of sacredness 507 00:34:32.433 --> 00:34:35.405 appears in that place is I will be what I will 508 00:34:35.405 --> 00:34:40.113 be. I am that I am. So it was so funny that you were like, you gotta leave 509 00:34:40.113 --> 00:34:43.582 from one place into the liminal. And then I am that I 510 00:34:43.582 --> 00:34:46.224 am. And then you kind of move from there 511

00:34:46.224 --> 00:34:50.849 into. Into a more embodied knowing. It feels very like resonant on a 512 00:34:50.849 --> 00:34:54.236 human, on a personal and a like, lineage level for 513 00:34:54.236 --> 00:34:54.480 me. 514 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:59.804 Well, they say there's no original idea. It's just recycling other people's 515 00:34:59.804 --> 00:35:04.728 ideas. So I came up with that analogy on my own without knowing any of the story 516 00:35:04.728 --> 00:35:09.576 from the Exodus. So, yeah, I guess you look at other examples like the Matrix 517 00:35:09.576 --> 00:35:11.961 films, and you have to go through that 518 00:35:11.961 --> 00:35:16.887 confusion. You have to wake up and go and fly down the chute before you can find 519 00:35:16.887 --> 00:35:21.579 what the reality is and then decide whether that's the reality you want to 520 00:35:21.579 --> 00:35:24.120 stay in. Yeah, it seems dark when you get 521 00:35:24.120 --> 00:35:24.950 there. Yeah. 522 00:35:24.950 --> 00:35:29.258 And I think, like. Yeah, it seems to me that it's. It's just a thing right 523 00:35:29.258 --> 00:35:34.227 beyond. Before it was mythologized or storied in all these different ways, it was 524 00:35:34.227 --> 00:35:38.903 just there. And then it gets storied and mythologized in all these different 525 00:35:38.903 --> 00:35:41.241 ways, each of which reveals something 526 00:35:41.241 --> 00:35:45.843 different. Something that I think is, like, very meaningful to me about the 527 00:35:45.843 --> 00:35:50.302 Exodus, Hebrew Bible version of it is they really emphasise the period of 528 00:35:50.302 --> 00:35:55.195 wandering and so could go on for a long time about this, but just that in the period 529 00:35:55.195 --> 00:36:00.090 of wandering, the story is very much people struggling to try to repattern all of 530 00:36:00.090 --> 00:36:04.913 the things that they learned from the place of narrowness and watching failure 531 00:36:04.913 --> 00:36:09.806 after failure after failure, fear after fear after fear, and then doing the best 532 00:36:09.806 --> 00:36:13.165 they could to get as much of that out of their collective 533 00:36:13.165 --> 00:36:16.451 body. And then they enter into, you know, the promised 534 00:36:16.451 --> 00:36:21.417 land. And we see still that the. The extent to which they couldn't get it out of them 535 00:36:21.417 --> 00:36:25.727 made them replicate some of the things. So even though they were able to 536 00:36:25.727 --> 00:36:30.548 enter. Enter that promised land, in some ways they weren't able to do it as fully 537 00:36:30.548 --> 00:36:34.931 embodied as they wanted to, and they left it to us to continue as the story 538 00:36:34.931 --> 00:36:39.751 goes. But. But the quip about it is it was way easier to get the people out of Egypt 539 00:36:39.751 --> 00:36:44.644 than to get Egypt out of the people. And I think that that is something that a lot of 540 00:36:44.644 --> 00:36:49.614 us on identity journeys and unplugging from the Matrix journeys contemporarily 541 00:36:49.614 --> 00:36:53.339 is, like, really important. Is like, yeah, I can see that it's 542 00:36:53.339 --> 00:36:58.232 a. I can see that that system over there is nonsense and I can try to get out, but if I 543 00:36:58.232 --> 00:37:03.200 go too fast into a new thing without really taking the time to be in the unknown, I'm 544 00:37:03.200 --> 00:37:07.801 going to carry a bunch of that stuff over and that the ability to reside in the 545 00:37:07.801 --> 00:37:12.770 unknown is actually like a really important part of the process, as you just said, 546 00:37:12.770 --> 00:37:14.816 from your own direct experience, 547 00:37:15.030 --> 00:37:19.750 does that play back to what we were saying earlier, where you've got the draw of 548 00:37:19.750 --> 00:37:24.670 this perspective? The draw of that perspective, and if you're not careful, you End up drinking the 549 00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:28.830 Kool Aid over here and then realising that actually it doesn't 550 00:37:28.830 --> 00:37:33.670 resonate. You haven't found yourself. What you've done is you've bought somebody else's ideal, somebody else's promised land, 551 00:37:34.170 --> 00:37:39.050 not your promised land. And actually you want to, you need to go, I've made a mistake, I've gone the wrong direction, I need to 552 00:37:39.050 --> 00:37:41.290 go back. You don't feel satisfied at all then, do you? 553 00:37:41.690 --> 00:37:46.530 Yeah, that's feel. I just from my. One of the ways I've experienced that 554 00:37:46.530 --> 00:37:51.050 in my life is, you know, I kind of unplugged from a really 555 00:37:51.850 --> 00:37:56.170 status based, kind of white 556 00:37:56.250 --> 00:38:00.900 dominant academic value set, we'll call it 557 00:38:00.900 --> 00:38:05.740 that. And I tried to unplug from that and as I did I found my place 558 00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:10.060 in the kind of lefty community organising scene and then 559 00:38:11.500 --> 00:38:15.020 I immediately was like, oh, this is the real stuff, this is where I want it to 560 00:38:15.020 --> 00:38:18.860 be. And then took on all of their thoughts and all of their thoughts about 561 00:38:18.860 --> 00:38:23.500 me. And in some ways it was really uplifting. In some ways it was 562 00:38:23.660 --> 00:38:28.390 super dehumanising and like put me in some really, really dark places for a long 563 00:38:28.390 --> 00:38:33.070 time. And in some ways it allowed me to continue with something I 564 00:38:33.870 --> 00:38:38.790 had from my previous life, which is a sense of superiority. I just went over there and I was like, okay, now I'm 565 00:38:38.790 --> 00:38:43.670 better than all those people and now I'm just going to try to be the intellectually smartest, I'm going to be the 566 00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:48.630 wokest one in the room and that's going to get my status right. So I had that and then you 567 00:38:48.630 --> 00:38:53.510 know, I in some ways built

legitimacy and connections in some like the beginnings of my career 568 00:38:53.510 --> 00:38:58.490 out of that. And then I was like watching the ways that work through and the ways it really does 569 00:38:58.490 --> 00:39:03.370 not work when you're actually trying to build organisations and create a liberated world now into 570 00:39:03.930 --> 00:39:08.850 now I'm. And then I entered like a real unknown land of like okay, I'm 571 00:39:08.850 --> 00:39:13.649 still working with organisations and I have developed my own embodied knowledge about 572 00:39:13.649 --> 00:39:18.250 how to do this. And, and that has been like an edge to claim 573 00:39:18.650 --> 00:39:23.010 because I have to be, I have to be in a group of people challenging a power 574 00:39:23.010 --> 00:39:27.710 dynamic, potentially getting fired. If I do it too extremely, 575 00:39:28.110 --> 00:39:33.030 I lose my credibility and I don't have a career. It's, it's a very definitely lived 576 00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:37.630 that thing. And now I'm trying to hang out in that unknown as much as I can 577 00:39:38.910 --> 00:39:40.910 and offer something from it. 578 00:39:40.910 --> 00:39:45.618 Do you find that then that you're constantly having to micro calibrate 579 00:39:45.618 --> 00:39:50.086 Your how you're dealing with people, the emotional intelligence, 580 00:39:50.086 --> 00:39:54.714 feeding back, adjusting yourself slightly, course correcting, but 581 00:39:54.714 --> 00:39:59.342 you're not the finished product. You're on this journey of evolution 582 00:39:59.342 --> 00:40:04.049 constantly. And I think as you say, going through the badlands into the 583 00:40:04.049 --> 00:40:08.834 place of comfort, you still gotta find the next door and the next door and 584 00:40:08.834 --> 00:40:13.702 you still gotta keep evolving yourself, be willing to invest in yourself 585 00:40:13.702 --> 00:40:18.646 and readjust your own and recalibrate your own sense of how you fit into the 586 00:40:18.646 --> 00:40:19.604 world as well. 587 00:40:20.570 --> 00:40:23.930 Yeah, definitely. And the more times, 588 00:40:26.250 --> 00:40:31.170 the more times we realise that we're wearing a mask, the easier it 589 00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:34.770 is to take the mask off and burn it if you 590 00:40:34.770 --> 00:40:39.570 need. And the faster we go through the processes, the less 591 00:40:39.570 --> 00:40:44.260 attached we are. You know, I've spent a, I've spent more than a decade creating the identity 592 00:40:44.900 --> 00:40:49.140 of kind of a social justice organisational development 593 00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:54.220 strategist. And now I'm in a place of questioning and be like, hang on, is this really the mask I 594 00:40:54.220 --> 00:40:59.100 want to wear? And because I've spent 10 years with it, it's hard to shake it loose and it's hard to 595 00:40:59.100 --> 00:41:03.300 think about putting on a different one. But there are other masks that, you know, 596 00:41:04.340 --> 00:41:07.580 if I only wear them for a couple months, then I can put them 597 00:41:07.580 --> 00:41:12.350 off. And that at least because I've let go of enough masks that I've held for 598 00:41:12.430 --> 00:41:17.310 a long time, I know that the process I'm going through right now of this one falling off is 599 00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:21.390 going to be okay and it's going to lead me somewhere deeper and truer and more 600 00:41:21.390 --> 00:41:26.310 honest. And that kind of comes back to the mystic thing which is like 601 00:41:26.310 --> 00:41:31.190 most of us shed masks through our lives and then most of us decide kind of 602 00:41:31.190 --> 00:41:35.030 which mask to put on. Right? We're making a decision about are we going to allow this to 603 00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:39.770 shed. We, what else are we going to do? And we're listening to something deep inside ourselves 604 00:41:39.850 --> 00:41:44.650 to discern right now. I'm trying to listen for, is it the best thing 605 00:41:44.650 --> 00:41:49.050 for me to keep this identity, this justice, justice organiser development, 606 00:41:49.370 --> 00:41:54.290 Is that the best identity for me to continue to really invest in and 607 00:41:54.290 --> 00:41:58.890 embody or is there something else? And I have to listen to 608 00:41:59.850 --> 00:42:02.860 something deeper than all of those identities to make the 609 00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:07.820 decision. And that's the thing that I'm kind of talking about is like the soul and the connection to the source of 610 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:10.940 sacredness and the source of blessing and the true source of 611 00:42:10.940 --> 00:42:14.980 place. So how, how strong can I 612 00:42:16.580 --> 00:42:21.220 create that connection and how much can I make that my primary 613 00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.900 goal and identity? And if I can, I'M like, way more 614 00:42:24.900 --> 00:42:28.700 flexible. And then that allows me to be of service in the way the moment 615 00:42:28.700 --> 00:42:29.130 calls. 616 00:42:29.680 --> 00:42:33.222 I look back at my life and I can see those masks you called 617 00:42:33.222 --> 00:42:37.765 them. I was always describing them as retracing my ideal of who I should 618 00:42:37.765 --> 00:42:42.539 be. I think, is it the song by you too? I still haven't found what I'm looking 619 00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:46.466 for. You keep. I try the next thing I try the next thing I try the 620 00:42:46.466 --> 00:42:50.547 next. Well, that makes finally sense. Well, that finally makes 621 00:42:50.547 --> 00:42:55.475 sense. And then you realise that you're so far from who you are because you've 622 00:42:55.475 --> 00:43:00.095 collected all these masks. Like it's all the things you're wearing that 623 00:43:00.095 --> 00:43:04.253 aren't really you. But they. They create a sense of belonging in a 624 00:43:04.253 --> 00:43:08.873 community. Suddenly you're in the middle of this community, realising 625 00:43:08.873 --> 00:43:12.569

that, actually I feel I'm a stranger in the middle of all my 626 00:43:12.569 --> 00:43:17.420 friends. This is not me. And then you've got that disconnect and then you've 627 00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:21.732 got to. You then got to reverse back and lose your friends, lose your 628 00:43:21.732 --> 00:43:26.660 community and shun yourself and say, actually, finding me is more important 629 00:43:26.660 --> 00:43:30.895 than hanging onto you. That's a real. A real challenge to do, isn't 630 00:43:30.895 --> 00:43:32.420 it? Yeah. 631 00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:37.460 Where for you, when you've made those decisions, what's been the thing that's given you 632 00:43:37.460 --> 00:43:42.420 the clarity and the investment to make that choice, to invest in yourself in that way, where does that come 633 00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:42.660 from? 634 00:43:44.180 --> 00:43:48.500 I think it's literally the pain of staying still 635 00:43:49.470 --> 00:43:54.270 became less than the pain of going forward and being in this vortex, you 636 00:43:54.270 --> 00:43:58.750 know? You know something's got to change and the vortex is so painful, so not good, 637 00:43:59.310 --> 00:44:03.950 that you've got to almost like force yourself in and force yourself out the other side and 638 00:44:03.950 --> 00:44:06.030 recognise that you have to exit 639 00:44:06.590 --> 00:44:09.230 naked. Anything you happen to bring with you is a 640 00:44:09.230 --> 00:44:13.950 bonus. If you go into the vortex expecting to have it all that you 641 00:44:13.950 --> 00:44:17.470 had and take it with you, you can't. You've got to. You gotta exit 642 00:44:17.470 --> 00:44:21.890 everything. And then. Bit like playing poker, you gotta. You gotta go all in with your chips 643 00:44:22.770 --> 00:44:27.690 and sometimes it'll win, sometimes it won't. But, yeah, I had to work out that I was gonna 644 00:44:27.690 --> 00:44:32.650 prepare to sacrifice everything. And I'm not saying I did or didn't, but, yeah, a lot of things fell by 645 00:44:32.650 --> 00:44:37.450 the wayside and they were just. That was just stuff. And I realised afterwards I was 646 00:44:37.450 --> 00:44:42.210 hanging on to things I didn't care about. But I also found that I hadn't 647 00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:44.930 shed everything I needed to shed when I got the other side either. 648 00:44:44.930 --> 00:44:49.010 I. I was still Drinking too much, and I drank too much for most of my 649 00:44:49.010 --> 00:44:52.810 life. And about four years ago, four and a half years ago, I thought, hang on a 650 00:44:52.810 --> 00:44:57.770 minute. This drinking is still something that I've carried through that transition and the 651 00:44:57.770 --> 00:45:01.130 vortex. And that's something I need to let go of because that's 652 00:45:01.130 --> 00:45:04.650 not. I don't like that person anymore. I think that helped as 653 00:45:04.650 --> 00:45:09.570 well. So, yeah, there's still things in there that I think actually this doesn't serve me anymore, but 654 00:45:09.570 --> 00:45:13.400 I'm far more willing to. To let go of things now than I ever 655 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:16.560 was. Some of that's age, you know, I'm 60 years old. So you do get 656 00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:19.440 maturity. And age does bring a bit more wisdom as well. 657 00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:23.160 Yeah. How about you? Did you. You crossed that journey 658 00:45:23.160 --> 00:45:24.160 yet? Completely. 659 00:45:24.160 --> 00:45:28.320 I think the awareness of pain being the 660 00:45:28.720 --> 00:45:33.520 pointer to enter the wilderness resonates a 661 00:45:33.520 --> 00:45:36.480 lot. The sense of like, I 662 00:45:36.560 --> 00:45:41.400 just. This isn't it. And I've had some 663 00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:46.320 pretty extreme experiences of that, you know, including one like real big 664 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.760 kind of a psychotic breakdown. I had to kind of emergency 665 00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.560 evacuate from a area to know. It's really 666 00:45:54.560 --> 00:45:54.880 big. 667 00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:55.280 Yeah. 668 00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:58.699 And then it's, it's, it's. So I've had some of those and I did 669 00:45:58.699 --> 00:46:03.443 them. I had them like that. And then I would do, you know, be with blood medicine and 670 00:46:03.443 --> 00:46:08.258 psychedelics and meditation retreats. And that also is like, can kind of do some of 671 00:46:08.258 --> 00:46:13.075 that process or it's not as actually like, like fully integrated is just doing it in 672 00:46:13.075 --> 00:46:17.819 your whole life. But that experience of watching things shed and figuring out how 673 00:46:17.819 --> 00:46:22.704 you're going to come out of the ceremony or the retreat, that's like the whole idea of 674 00:46:22.704 --> 00:46:26.193 the aesthetic practise in some ways, which I've like, toyed 675 00:46:26.193 --> 00:46:31.009 with. And then it's really interesting now in my life because it's like that rhythm 676 00:46:31.009 --> 00:46:35.055 has such a big important part of my life. And now I'm, for the first time 677 00:46:35.055 --> 00:46:38.474 property-owner, have a house with all the complexity that 678 00:46:38.474 --> 00:46:42.381 entails. And then I'm married with a son, so it's very interesting, 679 00:46:42.381 --> 00:46:47.338 right? This idea of like, knowing that. Knowing that to really align often requires a 680 00:46:47.338 --> 00:46:52.014 shedding of everything. And then also being like, oh, there's actually certain 681 00:46:52.014 --> 00:46:56.760 things I'm unwilling to shed right now. And I'm not willing to shed certain things 682 00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:01.367 because of my own heart and soul. And I'm also not willing to shed certain things 683 00:47:01.367 --> 00:47:04.160 because of my relationships and obligations to 684 00:47:04.160 --> 00:47:07.162 others. So that's very interesting. Like, okay, so 685 00:47:07.162 --> 00:47:07.510 what. 686 00:47:07.510 --> 00:47:08.190 How do I.

687 00:47:08.190 --> 00:47:11.830 How do I go through that, that exodus journey here in this new 688 00:47:11.830 --> 00:47:16.550 context. And that's one of the things that I really appreciate about my own ancestral lineage is 689 00:47:16.550 --> 00:47:20.269 like, it has ascetic practise and it has mystical practise, it has a lot of these 690 00:47:20.269 --> 00:47:25.230 things. But the paradigm of the practitioner is somebody who's also in relationship 691 00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:28.070 with kids, with a job, which I think is like a really interesting 692 00:47:28.230 --> 00:47:28.950 paradigm. 693 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.840 Yeah, no, I completely relate to that. I mean, I have my red lines and my red lines effectively 694 00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:39.200 were my wife, my children, my parents, my immediate 695 00:47:39.200 --> 00:47:43.520 family. And that was my non negotiable, they're coming with 696 00:47:43.520 --> 00:47:46.640 me. But then you know what you have to work with, don't 697 00:47:46.640 --> 00:47:50.400 you? You have to put effort into those relationships to make sure they do 698 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:55.240 work. And once you've realised what's important and what isn't, then you can 699 00:47:55.240 --> 00:47:58.580 focus on it. Simon's been absolutely. We could go. We could carry on for 700 00:47:58.580 --> 00:48:03.020 hours. We could really go deep in this. It's been fascinating to learn about Exodus and some of 701 00:48:03.020 --> 00:48:07.340 the. My own belief systems map onto other 702 00:48:08.060 --> 00:48:10.860 thinking styles. How can people get a hold of 703 00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:12.060 you? You've got. 704 00:48:12.940 --> 00:48:16.894 I got a website, programmes, I got a website. Harmonise Work is the 705 00:48:16.894 --> 00:48:19.697 website. And then what we do is organisational 706 00:48:19.697 --> 00:48:24.656 development. So we'll do, you know, whether it's strategy or structure or direct, 707 00:48:24.656 --> 00:48:29.399 like DEI work or power negotiation, all that stuff, basically anything you can 708 00:48:29.399 --> 00:48:32.202 think of. And we've got a cool tool there you can 709 00:48:32.202 --> 00:48:37.161 download. It's called the Collaboration manual, which is just like a big map of all 710 00:48:37.161 --> 00:48:40.612 the different agreements you can make to have successful 711 00:48:40.612 --> 00:48:44.348 organisations. Whether it's like meeting styles or roles and 712 00:48:44.348 --> 00:48:47.366 responsibilities. But I think like, like the real 713 00:48:47.366 --> 00:48:51.892 thing. And the reason why I do that work is because this level that we've been 714 00:48:51.892 --> 00:48:56.852 communicating on, this is what's happening for us and this is what's happening for 715 00:48:56.852 --> 00:49:01.740 people. This is a lot of the internal guts of what then produces our behaviours and 716 00:49:01.740 --> 00:49:04.688 then our organisations and our societies and our 717 00:49:04.688 --> 00:49:09.648 system. Our system. So, like, how are we going to maintain this kind of awareness of 718 00:49:09.648 --> 00:49:14.249 all this when we go in and change the way we facilitate a meeting, knowing that 719 00:49:14.249 --> 00:49:19.135 everybody's on a wild soul journey where they're navigating power and belonging 720 00:49:19.135 --> 00:49:24.022 on their search for justice and like what? And that's what's happening when we are 721 00:49:24.022 --> 00:49:26.897 trying to design a new recruitment pipeline for 722 00:49:26.897 --> 00:49:28.890 diversity. So how do we be with it? 723 00:49:28.890 --> 00:49:31.848 Love it. Absolutely fantastic. So also find you on 724 00:49:31.848 --> 00:49:34.450 LinkedIn. And you're Simon Mont, M O N T. Yep. 725 00:49:34.450 --> 00:49:36.970 S I M O N M O N T. That's a good. 726 00:49:36.970 --> 00:49:39.730 Drop your message on there. Connect, say hello. Yeah, 727 00:49:39.730 --> 00:49:39.970 yeah. 728 00:49:39.970 --> 00:49:44.810 And the website's nice. You can download that thing. There's also just like a button to set up a 30 minute 729 00:49:44.810 --> 00:49:48.770 phone call to talk about whatever and see if we're like a good match to do a project 730 00:49:50.610 --> 00:49:53.090 that was harmonise work. That's it. 731 00:49:53.410 --> 00:49:58.330 Fabulous. I'll put that in the show notes. Simon, it's been absolutely fascinating to talk 732 00:49:58.330 --> 00:49:59.410 to you. Thank you so much. 733 00:49:59.490 --> 00:50:00.530 Yeah, thanks so much. 734 00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:06.976 As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest 735 00:50:06.976 --> 00:50:11.900 gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the 736 00:50:11.900 --> 00:50:15.442 cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a 737 00:50:15.442 --> 00:50:20.279 chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of 738 00:50:20.279 --> 00:50:23.217 our ever growing community driving real 739 00:50:23.217 --> 00:50:27.019 change. Share this journey with friends, family and 740 00:50:27.019 --> 00:50:30.129 colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that 741 00:50:30.129 --> 00:50:33.325 matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to 742 00:50:33.325 --> 00:50:35.830 share? I'm all ears. Reach out to Jo 743 00:50:35.830 --> 00:50:40.237 Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice 744 00:50:40.237 --> 00:50:44.989 heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a 745 00:50:44.989 --> 00:50:49.828 promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, 746 00:50:49.828 --> 00:50:54.752 inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world 747 00:50:54.752 --> 00:50:57.776 one episode at a time. Catch you on the next 748 00:50:57.776 --> 00:50:58.200 bite.