บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Book Talk w/ Steve Cavanagh!

tinkering with something I've already written, I have to have silence. 00:03:57.759 --> 00:03:59.120 So it's a little bit of both. 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:01.039 A little bit of everything. 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:06.960 Alright, do you prefer writing courtroom scenes or action scenes? 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:08.639 What's your favorite? 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.840 I prefer an action scene because they're easier. 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:16.319 Yeah, I can see the courtroom scenes in my butt. 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:22.639 I really made a rod for my own back with his character Eddie Flynn because he's much smarter than me. 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:31.360 And each little courtroom scene scene in the book, there's a little twist into every scene that you won't see coming and the witness won't see coming. 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.079 And they're hard, they're hard to do. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.560 So uh action scenes are much easier for me. 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:42.079 Hey, but Eddie Flynn comes from your brain, so you're as smart as him in my opinion. 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:42.560 Yes. 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.040 Well, he d he does it all on the f you know, with very little preparation. 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:53.519 I have to think a long time to get those things right, um, whereas he's doing it in real time. 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.920 You know, I have a time machine and I'm still, you know, I'm struggling to get this right. 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:00.560 So oh, that's so fun. 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:09.040 I I just love the way your brain works and it translates into these books because they make it really fun for your readers. 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:10.160 So thank you. 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:15.360 Thank you for putting the time and energy and creating Eddie Flynn. 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:15.839 Yes. 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:16.959 Oh, thank you. 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:18.560 That's quite kind of you. 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:26.000 What's really cool about Eddie Flynn, especially, is just the fact that like your courtroom scenes are just as fun as the action scenes. 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:32.879 And I feel like not that it I feel like it would be hard to do, but I almost love the courtroom scenes more because they're so dramatic. 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:33.439 Oh, yeah. 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.279 I'm always like, I gotta get my popcorn ready. 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:35.519 Yes. 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.399 I'm always just sat and buckled. 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:46.319 Yeah, that's why I started writing them because you know, like John Grisham's the biggest legal thriller writer in the world. 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.360 Um, you know, undeservedly so, he's a great storyteller. 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:56.000 But there are very few courtroom scenes in his novels, and certainly his best books have no courtroom scenes at all. 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.959 Like The Firm is a suspense masterpiece, yeah. 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:01.600 But there's no courtroom scenes in it whatsoever. 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:19.120 And I wanted to try and because I did courtroom work myself, and I was really interested in that psychological battle that happens between a lawyer and a witness, where every word used by that lawyer is a weapon, and it's a real psychological and linguistic battle. 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:26.399 Um, so I wanted to try and bring that into and they are very traumatic scenes, and I want to try that's what I thought I could do in my books. 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:27.360 And so thank you. 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.920 If I'm doing it right by you, that's good. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:30.399 Thank you. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.839 You're doing it very, very well for real. 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:42.959 Um I we have a little bit of a silly question, and maybe you can't answer because this would give away anything for what you're writing next. 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.279 But what's the most suspicious thing you've Googled recently? 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.120 Oh I Google lots of suspicious things. 00:06:51.439 --> 00:07:01.759 Um so for the book that's coming out that is out in US at the moment is two kinds of stranger. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.160 Yes. 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:07.600 So for that, I had to Google and find out how to dig up a body. 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:22.800 Okay, okay and how long it would take and how to do it very efficiently, and I had to find out about US caskets, because in the in the UK and Ireland we have coffins, whereas in the US they're caskets and they're different. 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:32.160 And you know, they'll they'll have half lids, you know, um uh in the US, whereas we don't, there's just a full lid that goes down. 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:42.560 Plus, and also in some of the caskets in certain states, there has to be this little um key, a secret compartment in every casket. 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:48.959 So um, especially so if you're in like in Louisiana, it's not legal to be buried without one of these. 00:07:49.199 --> 00:08:04.160 So it's a little key that you use to open up the secret compartment in the bottom of the casket, and inside is a little glass vial, and in that vial it'll say the name of the person who's in the the coffin or the casket, the date of their date of birth and the date they died. 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:07.920 And this is because in certain states it's not unusual if there's flooding. 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:15.199 You know, for example, in New Orleans, you cannot be buried beneath the ground, you have to be buried above the ground because it's all swampland. 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.360 You just come up and float down the street. 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:26.560 So um, and where they have floods and stuff, you know, and if there is some kind of natural disaster, they have to be able to know, okay, you know, who's in there? 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:28.079 Oh, we opened the key, all right. 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:28.879 That's who it

is. 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:29.839 They put it in. 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.920 So I've Googled lots of stuff like this. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:40.320 For the book that's coming out in March, I had to look up a bit of law that is, and we'll talk about this later on if you like. 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:51.679 A bit of law that we have here, and I wanted to see if it was the same in America, because if I do, I do I mention very little law in my books, so any law that is there is is correct. 00:08:52.000 --> 00:09:08.799 So there's an obscure piece of law in in America that say, for example, um your your spouse confessed to you that they had killed someone, you're not legally allowed to testify about that. 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:14.240 Yeah, you can't mention that at all in court, you're not allowed to. 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:18.240 And that's a really obscure piece of law which comes from an old common law thing. 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:24.559 So I have to see if that if that existed in the US and how it works and how it's applied, and it's still very much in force. 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.200 So that's that's uh for the book next year. 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.480 So I Google all sorts of weird, wonderful, crazy things. 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:32.720 Yeah, I would love search history. 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.240 Yeah, seriously, a page of all of your search history. 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:37.679 It'll be hard, you know. 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:51.200 My search history is you know how to bury a body, um, you know, cute cute dog videos and you know, you know, stuff like that, you know, sneakers, um, and weird, you know, it's it's very random. 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:53.279 Yeah, duality of Steve Kavanaugh. 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:53.919 Yeah, I love that. 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:56.399 You go from dog videos and there's lots of layers. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:57.759 Yeah, I love it. 00:09:57.919 --> 00:09:58.240 I love it. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:09:59.440 We're seeing all sides. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:09:59.840 Yeah. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.000 So, like you mentioned, and if people couldn't already tell, you are based in Ireland. 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:05.759 But your Yes, in Northern Ireland. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:12.559 Yes, and your books, the Eddie Flynn series specifically, or uh is that all your books are based in New York City? 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:14.080 Pretty much all of them. 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:15.279 There's a few that aren't. 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.000 Um, but yes, they're all set in the States. 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:18.480 Okay. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.080 I think I just read the one that was based in Kentucky. 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:25.279 Oh, um Alabama, the devil's gonna be a little bit of a big Alabama. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:26.960 Alabama, yes. 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:28.000 Alabama. 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:29.360 Okay. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.240 I yeah. 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:30.559 Yeah. 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:38.080 What was it that what was it that made you decide to write and base your books there versus in Ireland? 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:39.919 A couple of things. 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:46.000 Um uh when I started writing, I was a lawyer, a civil rights and criminal lawyer in Northern Ireland. 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:56.639 And I didn't want to when I had the idea for like a lawyer, I was cross-examining someone one day, and I kind of conned them into revealing that they were lying. 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:05.840 And it struck me then that con artists and trial lawyers have all the same skills distraction, misdirection, persuasion, and manipulation. 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:08.799 And I thought that's a good idea for a character. 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:17.279 And so when I started writing, I didn't want to come home from being a lawyer uh in Northern Ireland and start writing about a fictional sort of version of me. 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:18.480 I thought that wouldn't work. 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:23.759 And I always loved American crime fiction, so I thought, I wonder if could I set it in the US? 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:37.120 Also, the problem is we have a dual system of representation, so we have solicitors, like the people who wear suits and being in office, and we have barristers who wear funny white wigs and gowns and stuff. 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:41.600 I was a solicitor advocate, so I did both of those jobs up to a certain point. 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:44.000 I wasn't allowed to do a murder trial on my own. 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:50.639 Um but uh I thought that's all I don't want to have a character in a funny wig and a gown. 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:53.279 It wouldn't suit the type of book I wanted to write. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:57.919 Um, you know, because the first book, The Defense, is quite fast-paced, and then he's running around. 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.600 He would get his coke caught, you know, in a door or something when he's running around. 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:02.399 It wouldn't work. 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:06.639 So uh I thought if I set it in the US, that solves the problem. 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:13.200 And two of my big influences are John Connolly, the Dublin crime writer and Lee Child. 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.320 Um, and Lee's from Birmingham, you know. 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.639 So uh I thought, well, they they're not American, they set books in America. 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.000 Uh I could do that. 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.120 The only difference is both John and Lee had spent you know many years in America before they started writing. 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.960 I wrote the first Eddie three Eddie Flynn books, and I had never been to America. 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:32.399 Well, you would never know. 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:32.799 Yeah. 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:34.159 Never been. 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.080 I went after it published the third one. 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:38.320 I thought I'd better go and see what this

place is like. 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:43.600 So are you on Google Maps a lot or Google Earth? 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:44.720 A little bit. 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:49.039 Uh the first book is sort of set in like a fictional courthouse, and it's fictional for a reason. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.559 Um and uh I I I just don't know. 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.799 I I also cheat a wee bit by setting those first few books are all in New York. 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:06.960 And if you've never been to New York City, every single person, uh you know, pretty much who's ever watched TV will have a very good mental image of what New York's like anyway. 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:07.279 Yeah. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.120 You know, you've seen Ghostbusters, you've seen Spider-Man, you know what New York's like. 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:15.200 So I can very easily tap into your sense of that city. 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:20.480 Um and when you're creating something in fiction, it kind of ceases to exist. 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.879 My New York's different from other crime writers who set their stuff in New York. 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.480 I I'm just using it as a bit of a canvas for the books. 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:36.639 So um, yeah, but it's it solves lots of problems, and you get it's New York's this kind of city where you think anything can happen there, you know, for sure. 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:40.080 And lots of crazy stuff has happened in New York and continues to. 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.600 So um, yeah, it's a it's a great place to set a crime novel. 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:48.159 Alabama was good too, um, but I can't go back to Alabama now. 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:51.120 Having written that book, I uh yeah. 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.759 Yeah, I'll I'll give it a miss. 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:55.519 Beautiful place, but I'll give it a miss. 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:01.840 So wait, this is like kind of off topic, but where's your favorite place that you've traveled to in the United States? 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:02.799 Do you have a favorite place? 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.840 Like, is it New York? 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.399 Oh, I I don't want to say a favorite place. 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:12.240 I've been to so many brilliant places, um uh and some not so brilliant places as well. 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:17.679 Um so I was recently in uh in Cleveland. 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:18.320 Oh, okay. 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:25.759 And I I visited a fantastic, I did a brilliant event there in a place outside of the Cleveland City Center. 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.519 And when I was outside of the city centre, it was beautiful. 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:33.759 But uh when I was inside the city centre, it wasn't so beautiful. 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.559 Um have you seen the new Superman movie? 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.039 No, it was like a Superman movie. 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.120 Yeah, it's the new Superman guy. 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:44.879 There's a Supergirl

movie which I haven't seen, there's a Superman that Superman movie. 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:50.240 The end of that, there's a big fight scene with a monster or something, and the whole street is wrecked. 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:57.679 You know, there's cars crushed and people lying on the street, and he defeats the monster, and then they go into this beautiful mall, him and Lois Lane. 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:00.879 And the you can see this on YouTube. 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:08.480 Uh, it's the last scene where they he flies up with her and they kiss, and this gorgeous mall, it's like a Victorian beautiful thing. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:14.559 Well, I was in that street, and I was in that mall, and the mall's empty in the movie, and in real life, it's empty too. 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:20.720 There's a hairdresser's and there is a um like an antique shop, and that's it, the whole thing's empty. 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:31.360 And the street is exactly like it is in the movie, with cars and fire and people lying in the street, and it was just like when I watched the movie, I thought they've spent a fortune, you know, on this. 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.960 There's rubble everywhere, but that's just Cleveland. 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.360 I was in the hotel and I I do this thing when I'm on tour. 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:43.919 It's a tip given to me many years ago by a very famous crime writer that I won't mention. 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:56.320 But he said, you know, when you're going on tour, uh try not to check a bag in America because you know, take ages, just you know, bring carry-on and you'll get through all the airports because you're getting on a plane every day to go somewhere else. 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:04.960 So he said, Bring, you know, um socks and underwear and just leave them behind and just buy new ones when you're there to travel light. 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:06.159 That's great. 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:13.840 So uh I was at the stage where I needed to buy socks, so I went to the hotel and I said, Is there like a store around here I can I can buy socks? 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:19.600 And they looked at me and said, No, there's no place you can buy socks in the center of Cleveland. 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:21.440 You're joking me. 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:22.240 I said, No. 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:27.840 I yeah, there's a mall, like there was two massive malls beside the hotel, both of them all closed down. 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:35.840 So, but um I I at the same time I had a brilliant time in Cleveland, and the place I was outside of it was fabulous, and I'll definitely go back. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.120 Won't stay in Cleveland next time in case I need socks. 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:41.039 But um that's crazy. 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:46.799 No, it was great, and and this the city itself was beautiful, it was just a shame there was nobody there. 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:48.559 But I've had it before in cities. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.039 I went

to St. 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:49.759 Louis St. 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:50.960 Louis once, St. 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.399 Louis, where they have the big arch and there was nobody there. 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:56.000 The whole city was empty. 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:57.200 Yeah. 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.039 Maybe it's just surprisingly. 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:00.879 They hear everyone everyone's gonna be. 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:13.599 They hear Steve's coming, they're like, Goodbye, but I love uh I love New York, I love uh Raleigh in North Carolina, I love Houston, Texas, which is pretty I love places like that. 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:23.920 So uh I've been lots of you know over the uh the years in lots of different um brilliant towns, and uh always the highlight of the trip is not really the towns, it's the people. 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:28.880 I love I everyone's incredibly welcoming and really nice. 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.480 Um even though I've had many disasters on tour. 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:35.279 Um I can tell you quick. 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.079 Yeah, please tell us, yeah. 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.480 So I was I was in this place, I got invited to this place. 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.599 It's called Sea Island in Georgia. 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:52.960 Okay, and it's kind of like um a sort of a summer camp resort for millionaires. 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:59.839 Okay, so to get and they would put on entertainment for their guests, and it's like an island resort. 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.319 So there's a hotel and there's all different buildings and lodges, and there's a huge golf course and everything. 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.359 So um, they give you an idea of this place. 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:12.000 They once decided, well, well, this show, Downton Abbey, is very popular. 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.319 Is Downton Abbey popular in the US? 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:15.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:20.400 They flew out the whole cast and then said, Can you just put on a show for us? 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.640 And they went, Okay, yeah. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.200 Uh so it's that sort of level. 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:30.960 Like they so they invited me and a few other writers to have like a uh a crime weekend. 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:35.839 So we had to go and do a talk there, and they let us stay there for like four or five days. 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:48.400 So I brought my wife, they paid for us to go first class from Dublin to Georgia, and they gave us the run of the resort for like you know, four or five days, and it was unbelievable. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.759 They give you a sense of the place. 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.440 Well, we were checking in. 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:57.440 Um, the lady said to me, You can go and see that man over there, he'll give you your complimentary BMW. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.160 And I said, Sorry, excuse me. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:05.759 So you could go, and this man would give you a BMW just to drive around the island. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.599 Oh wow, you go and see everything, and I and so I didn't do that. 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:15.200 My wife wouldn't let me do that because she thought I'll wreck I'll wreck the car and then it'll be a disaster. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:27.359 So um, but like Tracy had cryotherapy, she has had horseback riding and kayaking and everything, and had this amazing time, and it's all you know, three-star Michelin chef food and everything, fantastic. 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:37.920 So all I had to do for this was this one talk, and it was a ballroom full of people, and I thought, okay, I'll just I'll go to the bathroom before I do this talk. 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.079 And it was a summertime, it was very hot. 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:52.640 So I went into the bathroom, into the stall, locked the door, did whatever I had to do, coming out of kid, and I pulled the handle down on the on the door to open it, and the whole locking mechanism just crumbled in my hand. 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:53.839 Oh no. 00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:02.160 And it was like floor-to-ceiling door, thick mahogany with just like a little slatted, you know, with little wooden slats in the window. 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:03.599 This is actually my nightmare. 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:05.759 I've thought about this happening multiple times to me. 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.839 I before I went in, I gave Tracy my gave my wife my phone. 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.240 Oh, because I didn't want her on stage. 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.039 So I'm looking at my watch, and it's two o'clock now. 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:20.079 I have to do my talk, and I'm locked in the world's hottest toilet. 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.119 So I had no way of telling anybody this. 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:30.160 So I start shouting for help, and a few minutes later, a man comes in and says, Are you alright? 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:31.680 I said, I'm stuck in here. 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:37.839 And he tries the door, and he's he for a few minutes and goes, Yeah, you're you're really stuck in there. 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.000 I said, I know, I can't climb out, I can't do anything. 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.920 It's a totally sealed box I'm in. 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:43.119 So wait a minute. 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:47.519 So he went and got this guy, like an engineer who came in and he couldn't do anything. 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:49.440 So the phone for these other people to come. 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.519 But they're on the other side of the island. 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.400 And uh the event manager came in and said, What are we going to do here? 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:59.440 I said, Well, you better let them know I'm delayed uh here. 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:10.240 So she, unbeknownst to me, she went into the ballroom and announced to 200 people the author, Steve Kavanaugh, is delayed because he has locked himself in the bathroom. 00:21:11.039

--> 00:21:22.799 Oh now, technically that's correct, but the way she said it, it sounded as if I had thrown a mad hissy fit and had barricaded myself in the toilet and refused to come out. 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:33.359 So I'm in here, I said about 15 minutes now, and the man the guy, the bar manager said to me, It's really warm in here. 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.279 I said, I'm melting in here. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:43.119 So he said, Hang on a minute, and he came back, and then this big straw came through the slats of the of the window. 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:48.400 So I said, That that water tastes really weird. 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.880 He said, That's not water, that's Pinot Grigio. 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.920 Just put a big straw and a bottle of Pinot Grigio and well again, it was that kind of place. 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:09.440 So um by about Half to I had inhaled a bottle, a whole bottle of Pinot Grigio, and then two men busted this door off and got cut me out. 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.440 So when I walked into the ballroom, they had obviously thought, well, see if someone's had a negotiation with them. 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.599 I had a huge round of applause. 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.400 Well done. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.160 He's finally got the courage to come out of the bathroom to talk to us. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.880 But it was the warmest crowd I'd ever had. 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.319 Everyone had a great time. 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:31.279 Um, because they all thought, you know, we'll give them we'll give them some encouragement here, obviously. 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:38.319 So yeah, there's all sorts of disasters I have, but that's just one of them. 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:40.079 That was great. 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.640 If you want to talk about books, there's been two books. 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:45.519 That was amazing. 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:50.160 Yeah, that sounds like a comedy sketch that you just can't. 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.039 There's all sorts of weird weird and wonderful things happen. 00:22:53.680 --> 00:23:01.680 This is not a question on our list, but since we're kind of like talking about a more funny story, would you ever write outside of the genre you typically write? 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:06.720 Because the way you told that story, I feel like I could read a comedy by you. 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.920 Like, is that of any interest to you at all? 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:14.640 Um The weird thing is I don't think comedy books sell very well. 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:15.119 Yeah. 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.440 Um and I'm I don't know. 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.079 I I kind of I know what I'm good at, if you know what I mean. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.400 And I think I'm I I know I'm I'm okay with writing a thriller and I know how to do it. 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:26.960 I know how to write a twist and characters and stuff. 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:28.720 So I don't know if I ever would. 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:31.759 Um I used to read a lot of fantasy. 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.759 Uh so maybe a fantasy book, but I I doubt it. 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:36.640 I doubt it. 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:40.000 I I'm quite quite happy plowing my own furrow. 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:44.400 I know I could definitely never write romance because that's really hard. 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.039 Um, and I take my hat off to romance writers. 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:48.720 I think it's the most difficult game. 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.440 That in children's writing is really tough. 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:58.640 And there's a few bits in my book in Two Kinds of Strangers, there's a little bit of a sort of a romance scene, and that was really difficult. 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.319 You know, I'm much happier, you know, cutting someone's hair off. 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:02.799 Yeah. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.880 Comes more naturally to me. 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:15.920 I think you could actually do a little bit of stand-up comedy, maybe not write it, but I think you're you're a very witty person. 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:22.240 And I think you could you could you could uh make a living on stand-up just with your misfortunes. 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:27.680 You could just go up and talk about that story and everyone will die laughing. 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.839 So well, thank you very much. 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:36.160 I do when I do when I when I go on tour, sometimes I'm talking to someone, sometimes they just give me a microphone and and I talk. 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:41.920 And I I'll I will tell stories and things and talk a wee bit about books, but mostly I don't want to spoil the book. 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:47.279 Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about it and then I'll tell a story, and everyone's had it, everyone's been entertained. 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.920 Um so I think that's that's good, that's fun. 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.519 Getting me to talk isn't a problem, getting me to shut up is usually the the issue. 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.079 Okay. 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:55.359 I love it. 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:56.000 Yeah, we're happy to do that. 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.480 I really have to talk the entire time, pretty much. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:03.200 So without spoiling anything, you were talking about twists. 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:04.880 I'm so curious. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.079 How does one write a good twist? 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:09.680 Like, how does that start? 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:14.079 Like, how how do you put all of the pieces together? 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.880 Um, with great difficulty. 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:18.559 Um really. 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:26.640 Uh so it's only for one of my books that I know one of the twists going in. 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.079 Because I don't plan anything out, I don't have an outline, I don't have a plan. 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:34.079 I make it all up as I go along. 00:25:34.240

--> 00:25:39.440 So I'll have an idea for the very basic premise of the book, and it will be very basic. 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:52.000 So, for example, Two Kinds of Stranger, you know, uh is basically what if you met the perfect, you know, uh what if you met this perfect stranger and you helped them and they turned out to be the perfect killer. 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.440 And that's all I had when I started that book. 00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:01.519 Um, and then as I go along, I'll sort of I'll stop maybe every 20,000 words and look at what I've got. 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.119 Because I know I do want to surprise you and I do want twists. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:11.039 Um, so I it's sitting down and saying, okay, I'm always thinking about the reader when I'm writing. 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:16.400 Some writers are always thinking about you know them, what they want from the book and what they want to write. 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:18.319 And I'm always thinking about the reader. 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:19.759 What are you thinking? 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:25.759 What can I, you know, because Eddie's a con man, um uh, but he's not the only one. 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:27.519 I'm also conning the reader. 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.160 I need a twist that you won't see coming. 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:54.640 Um, uh, but it has to be actually the thing with the twist is it's all in the execution, so it has to be something that makes you go, oh I wow, I didn't see that coming, but it makes total sense and right, and it changes your perspective of the book, and it's it's all it's like having a puzzle that doesn't quite fit in, and then it just suddenly goes click and you have that satisfaction. 00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:09.759 I never want to write a twist which is just oh, I I didn't see that coming, and yeah, wow, it's just a twist for its sake, it's not it has to be satisfying, it has to be in a way that makes you go, wow, yes, great, I didn't see that coming, and it makes total sense. 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:15.519 Not you know, oh, it was aliens, or he was, you know, something we weird, you know. 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:22.559 Um, it has to, it can't be from left field, it has to all be, you have to build it all up and layer it through. 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.720 And so that can be very tricky and just takes a lot of hard work. 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:28.720 What you kill it. 00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:32.880 Yeah, because I feel like I'm very picky when it comes to the thrillers that I read. 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.799 And I read some where the twist is very shocking, but it makes zero sense. 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:45.039 And so with yours, I fe I feel like with all three of us, the reason we love your book so much is because your twists are still good, but you're right. 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:47.839 It as soon as you reveal it to us, it all makes sense. 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.920 I'm not thinking this is so unrealistic, it doesn't make sense. 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.960 It's just your book, your thriller books are just you know what thrillers should be. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.359 Yeah, they're they're action-packed. 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.200 You still have like the wittiness that you show as a person is in your books. 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.000 It's just the perfect recipe for us. 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.440 So you do a great job. 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:08.160 Thank you. 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.119 Thank you very much. 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:10.559 That's very kind of me to say. 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:12.319 I'm I'm very glad. 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:13.279 Yeah, yeah. 00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:26.000 The talent, just what how you described it, I just couldn't imagine going into a book and just kind of making it up as I go and having it make as much sense as your books do. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.359 Like, like Kennedy said, it just fits so well. 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.759 I just want to like jump inside of your brain to see how everything's moving. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:40.400 Because every time I'm reading your books, I'm like, how did this how did he figure this out? 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:40.960 I love it. 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:41.759 It's so fun. 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:49.119 So well, I have help, you know, is I have good editors and my wife Tracy is brilliant at coming up with twists and ideas and surprises as well. 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.319 So I I do have help. 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.000 I'm not doing this all on my own. 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:52.640 Oh. 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.200 And of course you got Google with your how to hide a body and dog videos, you know? 00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:58.079 Exactly. 00:28:58.640 --> 00:28:59.839 Perfect combination. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:01.440 Perfect. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.480 Talking about Eddie Flynn, okay. 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:13.119 Is there anything that you've learned from writing about him that's maybe surprised you or writing these books? 00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:15.119 Um, I don't know. 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:24.559 I don't I uh I don't normally get surprised by I know some writers, they're you know, they get surprised by what their characters do. 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:29.519 Um and I think that's it's not surprising the way that you think it is. 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:35.839 You know, there are some writers that are all the way in and their characters talk to them and tell them things and all of that. 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.759 And I'm always like, great. 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:46.559 And then if this writer's telling me this, I'm sort of backing away very slowly, you know, don't make eye contact, no sudden movements, because those people are just crazy. 00:29:46.799 --> 00:30:01.039 Um there are other writers that will, you know, they have a plan for their book, and what they haven't accounted for is what their characters, who the what the characters that they've written, and it may well be

that because they haven't written the characters yet. 00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:08.079 Um there's a to me, there's a huge overlap between plot and character, and character leads the plot for me. 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:20.400 Yeah, um, because in if you think about it in any situation, um, I'm sure there's a parallel here for maybe romantic books, but you would have one character who would maybe so say Jack Reacher. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:27.119 If Jack Reacher finds a bad guy at the end of a book, Jack Reacher shoots a bad guy in the head and then goes and gets a cup of coffee. 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:33.839 Uh if it's a police detective like Harry Bosch, he finds a bad guy, he arrests him, and there's a trial. 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:41.279 But you know, so the characters in some ways to take the dictate the action if you're writing true to what that character will do. 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:49.839 You know, so uh sometimes you can be surprised that way if you have a set idea for a plot and you say, Oh, the character won't do what I want them to do. 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.079 Well, maybe that's not the character you've written. 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.920 So uh I'm never really surprised by that. 00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:57.920 But I know exactly what you mean. 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:16.640 Yeah, but that's very interesting because um we've interviewed quite a few authors, and so it's just always very interesting to see how what the relationship is like with their characters and like how they write and stuff like that based on yeah, the relationship they have. 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.200 And yeah, that's that's just very interesting. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:20.000 I love it. 00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:24.240 Yeah, though well, I think I know Annie Flint and I have written ten books with him. 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah, so I know what he'll do in a situation, which kind of makes the writing of the books easier for me in some ways. 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:35.839 Because I know what he'll do, I know the mistakes he'll make, um, I know that some of the tactics he'll employ. 00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.160 He'll always do the wrong thing for the right reasons to help someone else. 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:44.799 Um and as long as I stay true to that, then I'm I'm okay. 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:46.000 Yeah. 00:31:46.559 --> 00:32:01.359 Um, if you do you think um Eddie Flynn would have to uh change his ways if he were to magically be in your world, like in Ireland. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:09.039 Um you would be amazed at things that some lawyers get away with. 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:17.920 Um and uh you know people often ask me, you know, have you ever used anything from your real life cases you've done in your books? 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.839 And I always say no because no one would believe me. 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:22.640 Yeah. 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:26.640 You would read it and you would go, There's no way that would that would happen. 00:32:27.119

--> 00:32:28.880 And you'd throw the book across the room. 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:37.839 So the for example, I once represented a guy who tried to rob a post office with a dead seagull. 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:39.440 What? 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:47.759 So this man had a he walked into your post office and he had a seagull by the legs, right? 00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:53.920 And he started bashing the seagull against the security glass, saying, Give me all your money. 00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.720 And then he passed out on the floor, and the police were called and he was arrested. 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.680 And went to see him and said, Uh, where did you get the seagull? 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.039 Was already dead when he walked in. 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:09.119 He said, Where did you get the seagull from? 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.200 And he said, I have no idea. 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:15.680 And uh alcohol, a lot of alcohol was involved in this. 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:16.880 I was gonna ask you. 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:26.480 Um so the but the you know the the difficulty, the difficult part of the case was he was charged with armed robbery. 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:37.279 So which created an interesting legal you know point because when you think of being armed, you think of you having someone having a lead pipe or a knife or a gun. 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.680 You know, so this was an interesting point of law. 00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:43.680 Can you be armed with a large deceased seabird? 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:57.119 So we had a bit of a uh a chat with the judge, and the judge go, he had no idea either, and sort of went, Well, if you get hit around the face with this bird, would it hurt? 00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:58.640 And we went, it probably would. 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:00.559 So you see, God's a big bird. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:03.359 And he went, well, then he probably was armed. 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.279 There's no arguing with that logic, really. 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:12.960 So, but if I put that in a book, you know, you'd be going, What the hell is this? 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:14.239 This is whatever. 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.000 It's just a real load of rubbish, this, and you would throw it away. 00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:22.320 So I don't, and uh there's loads of stuff like that that's happened. 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:29.039 And because you know, mostly criminals aren't I write about I like writing about really smart people. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:30.239 That's the thing. 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:31.920 So Eddie Flynn is smart. 00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:39.280 A lot of the villains in my books are you know very you know twisted and damaged people, but a lot of them are very smart as well. 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.599 Because I think that's a good foil for Eddie. 00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.400 You know, I want someone who's as smart as him to make it. 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:46.000 Yeah, yeah, to challenge him, yeah. 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:47.280 To challenge him. 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:52.239 So um, but in reality, very few villains are are smart. 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:55.840 You know, mostly they're they're really stupid. 00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:03.920 Quick example of that we've got a guy who was released to a um it's almost like a halfway house, you would call it. 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.320 So he's he's been released from GL, he's on license. 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:07.599 Please for watching him. 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:16.480 And there was a a corner shop on the corner of a street, and he would go in every day and buy milk and bread there and chat away to the person behind the till. 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:20.320 Um, it was always a lady behind the till, she was a shop owner. 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.880 And then he ran out of money and he thought, I'll I'll rob the shop. 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.079 So he put on a balaclava and walked in. 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:33.119 He had just been in there that morning to buy milk, but he walked in and said, Okay, give me all your money. 00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:35.920 And she said, Is that you, John? 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:38.639 Uh, because she recognized him instantly. 00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.000 Uh, because he was still wearing the same clothes that he'd been in that morning. 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:50.239 He'd just put a hood on and there was audio of it, and his response was, she said, is that you, John? 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.039 And he said, No, it's somebody else. 00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:00.559 So it's not, he's that's you know there's no mastermind there. 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:02.320 Yeah. 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:03.440 Oh my god. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.360 Do you is it hard sometimes to keep a straight face? 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:10.320 Sometimes. 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.400 Sometimes it's very difficult. 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.760 You hear people saying things and it's you're going, oh my god. 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:16.639 Really? 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:18.239 Did you just say that? 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.960 And sometimes it's a lawyer saying it. 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.000 Yeah, I that would be. 00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:27.840 So we uh very quick, very quick example. 00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:36.400 There was a case of this um this family, uh, and they were all quite every member of the family had been arrested multiple times. 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:44.159 Father and the son, and the brothers and cousins, and everyone was just getting arrested all the time, fighting with each other, and you know, a lot of problems in this family. 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.840 And um, they were arresting the grandson who was about 15. 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:49.920 There's two big policemen arresting him. 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.599 And his granny went out. 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:56.400 Now she was the only one who wasn't regularly arrested, uh, and had never been arrested, I don't think. 00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:03.440 She

went out to remonstrate with the police officer and was so you know, pulling him and saying, Leave my grandson alone. 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.920 So he was wrestling with the granny, this woman's in her 80s, and he pulled off her false arm. 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:23.360 Uh, during this tussle, and I had to represent her, and um, I couldn't do it that day. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:39.920 So another guy in my office went down to do it, and I so he was and the the prosecutors reading out the facts of the case, and we were saying, Well, yes, she did technically put her hands on the police officer, but she's a woman of good standing, and you know, leave her alone, you know, give her a bit of a finger wagging and say, Don't do it again, and let her go. 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:42.320 Nice woman in her 80s. 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:48.639 And um the the solicitor uh who was doing the case said an unfortunate phrase. 00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.239 Um, he said, You know, this uh this lady is of obvious good standing. 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:56.719 Um, you know, she wouldn't hurt a fly, she's completely uh harmless. 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:00.800 Meaning to say harmless. 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:04.079 But the judge, the judge started laughing. 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:07.599 And couldn't stop laughing. 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:09.920 So he couldn't actually sentence her. 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:14.000 He just would get her out of here because no one couldn't breathe. 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:20.239 So there's things like this, you put them in a book and no one would believe you, you know. 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:21.599 Yeah, I bel yeah. 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:23.199 So there you go. 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:24.320 But wow. 00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:31.599 I'm like, I would read a short story, a short storybook of all of your tales like that from your campaign. 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.320 You should start a podcast. 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:39.039 I would listen, I would have a book podcast. 00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:46.079 Oh, me and another brilliant Liverpool writer called Luca Veste, and we're very good friends. 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:54.880 And we started in 2016 before there were any real book podcasts, but we were kind of the worst book podcast ever because we never really talked about books. 00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:07.440 We most we wanted to we wanted to have um the same conversations with writers, mostly crime writers, that we would have like at a festival at like you know uh midnight after we've had a few beers. 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:11.840 So, you know, for and some writers got it, and they were great episodes and very funny. 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:13.920 And some writers didn't get it at all. 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:17.840 They were like wanting to be interviewed, and it was a bit so it was hit and miss. 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.800 It was called Two Crime Writers and a Microphone. 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:21.920 Oh, lovely. 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:23.280 Can you still find it? 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:30.239 So for example, we had Linwood Barclay, who's a fantastic thriller writer, one of the best standalone thriller writers ever. 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:48.159 We had Linwood Barclay on, and but not to talk about his new book, he was getting house renovations done, and there were works going on outside, and the the all the building construction crew outside working on the road had put their toilet on his lawn uh right in front of his writing room. 00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:50.239 So he was taking pictures and putting them online. 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:57.280 He was just sitting writing and looking up, and it's just a line of men going to have a crap in his front lawn and this little toilet. 00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.920 So we got them all to just largely talk about that. 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:06.320 And well, a lot of them loved that, a lot of writers loved that because you it wasn't it was totally out of the norm, and you got to know them as a real people. 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:06.800 Yeah. 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:11.440 So um, but we have we we sort of we got both of us got too busy to do that. 00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:12.239 But read Mr. 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:14.800 Veste's books if you get a chance, he's brilliant. 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:15.199 Yeah. 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:15.840 Okay. 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:28.159 I was gonna say, I feel like as a reader, it's nice to know, like when we do these interviews, obviously we ask authors questions about their writing, but I also feel like even our listeners love to hear about who who you guys are as people. 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:34.159 And yeah, I feel like we've learned so much about you just in this interview, and so have our listeners. 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.800 And if I hadn't read your books, listening to you talk and how funny you are, it would make me want to read your books. 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:42.400 So it's like you know kind of you to say. 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:51.039 It's a good, it's a good way to advertise your books outside of just like here's how I write, because people connect with you as a person and then want to read your books. 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:51.280 Yeah. 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:53.280 So that's really cool. 00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:54.800 Can you still find your podcast? 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.559 Like, is it still on Apple Podcasts? 00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.000 It's still on somewhere, yeah. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.079 I think the main stuff is I would go listen to that. 00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:01.440 So you have a listen. 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:01.840 Okay. 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:03.920 I take no responsibility whatsoever. 00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.880 There's some episodes that are good and some are bad. 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:13.519 Some of the better episodes were there used to be in a literary award in the UK called the Bad Sex Award. 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:14.239 Okay. 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:15.280 Oh, okay. 00:41:15.599

--> 00:41:22.559 So this was an award for a really badly written sex scene in an otherwise good book. 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.079 And we would read out the nominees and sort of try and see where they went wrong. 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:35.119 And sometimes it's just two minutes of me laughing and Luca laughing, and we don't know. 00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.079 I need to listen to this as soon as possible. 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:52.880 There's because there's various approaches, particularly with English writers, they don't really want to write about sex scenes, or they find it very difficult to do it because you can either do it very descriptively, it becomes quite clinical then, and it's very strange. 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:55.599 I can never write a sex scene. 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:00.320 Um, and then there are some writers who say, Well, like, I can't do that, I'm gonna go into metaphor. 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:04.719 So your pages about you know, mountains and valleys and all sorts of stuff. 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.039 Is this a geography book or what what the hell is this? 00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:12.719 You know, because they completely lose themselves. 00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:17.199 You can see that well, I've got to write this sexy and they went, oh no, write something else. 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:18.960 Can't put that down. 00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:20.960 You know, they get embarrassed themselves. 00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:26.400 There's other people you think you read this and you think, I, you know, these people have probably never had sex in their lives. 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:28.079 It's very strange. 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:29.920 But there you go. 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:31.840 That's a that's a thing, good thing to Google. 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.599 The bad sex award, you can have a bit of a laugh. 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:34.960 Oh my gosh, wait, that's really funny. 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:36.639 We are learning so much. 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:48.559 Yeah, we we love to dissect some cringy, we call it cringy dialogue or like cringiest lines, and we have a laugh whenever we do an episode on that. 00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.480 So I can't imagine you guys dissecting. 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:57.039 I would love I'm really gonna try and find that and listen to it because that sounds so entertaining. 00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.039 Have a listen again. 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.239 I'd abdicate responsibility for this a long time ago. 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:02.800 Okay. 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:03.280 That's okay. 00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:04.239 It was fun. 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:05.360 Yeah. 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.639 Why did you guys stop doing it? 00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:10.000 It was largely me. 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.840 I just got I had so much on at the time. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:16.159 I was working and writing, and then it was a whole thing with COVID stuff uh hit. 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:18.079 So it was largely me. 00:43:18.320 -->

00:43:21.119 Um but we used to do like gigs at festivals and stuff. 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:26.079 We would do live episodes and we yeah, we we interviewed, we did over a hundred episodes. 00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:32.559 We interviewed we kind of talked to everyone we wanted to talk to as well, which is but um no, it was good fun. 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:33.840 Yeah, that's fun. 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:38.800 I think I mean you're you're booked and busy, obviously, with your books and stuff. 00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:46.239 So I think that's awesome that you had a chance to do that, and then now you're just writing away. 00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:47.440 Writing away. 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:48.719 Sharing the words. 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:49.679 Yeah. 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.239 Well, and again, I'd leave it to professionals like yourself. 00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:53.920 You know, your podcast is is great. 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.360 It's brilliant to hear real readers talking about books. 00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:59.119 That's what I like to listen to. 00:43:59.519 --> 00:43:59.760 Thank you. 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:00.719 Thank you. 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:02.320 That's very nice. 00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:06.000 We're supposed to be complimenting you, not you complimenting us. 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:07.679 No back into you too. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.159 So back to the courtroom stuff, because I've got a question for you with this. 00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:18.880 Do you ever watch like courtroom dramas, TV, anything? 00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:23.360 And are you is it hard for you to like not be fact-checking stuff? 00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:28.239 Because like you said in your books, you try to keep everything as like correct. 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:29.760 Correct as possible, right? 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:31.039 As as possible, yeah. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:32.079 I mean, I take liberties. 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:36.880 So, for example, the cases in Eddie Flynn and a lot of the books, they happen quite quickly. 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:41.920 Because I don't want to leave a two-year gap between a trial a crime and the trial. 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:45.760 But I'll always invent a very good reason why it happens quickly. 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:46.480 You know. 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:52.320 So if I change something, there will be it will be explained and there'll be details to back all that up. 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.039 Sometimes, you know, um, but usually I'm quite forgiving. 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:01.199 If it's a good drama um and it all makes sense, then that's great. 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:07.760 And the reader's intelligence or the what or the listeners' intelligence or or viewers' intelligence isn't insulted, I'll be very happy. 00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.440 There have been some brilliant ones. 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.039 Um my favorite one's Rumpole of the Bailey. 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.400 You probably have not heard of this. 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:24.800 So there was an English barrister called Sir John Mortimer, who did lots of uh divorce cases and some interesting cases. 00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:35.679 He did uh a public decency case because they tried to ban a book, um, Lady Chatterley's Lover, and he was one of the um lawyers who got that book back into print. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:45.280 Um so but he wrote a character called Rumpole of the BLE about a barrister who worked in the OPLA and he defended people, and uh that's brilliant. 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:48.800 And the scenes in that I think you can watch the whole thing on YouTube. 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:57.360 The books are great, they're all little short stories within a volume, but you can watch the whole thing on YouTube, they're very funny and very accurate. 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:03.519 Rumpel was a brilliant cross-examiner because they just stuck to what Mortimer did, and he was brilliant doing it. 00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:09.280 So a very funny, not dramatic or tense, really, but very funny and humorous. 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:13.119 But you can see the craft of what those courtroom scenes are like. 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:16.960 So probably the best courtroom scenes I've seen, Rumpel of the Bailey. 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:18.000 Okay. 00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:21.440 I have to ask, have you ever watched Suits? 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:28.079 I've watched one or two episodes of it, but I've never watched all of it. 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:32.079 Um, and I'd never watched Better Call Saul until recently. 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.519 Um uh so I don't get a lot of time to watch, but I hear Suits is great. 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:50.559 I feel like not to compare, but it is uh kind of similar to Eddie Flynn in the fact that he's kind of conning his way into being a lawyer. 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:53.599 Um and I just thought it was really fun. 00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.639 I started watching Suits and reading your books at the same time, and I just I thought it was it was kind of fun. 00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:05.199 I have actually stopped watching suits and continued reading your books instead. 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:06.159 Oh, good. 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:11.920 Well you can put the suits, um, but then that's that's as long as you're reading the books, that's fantastic. 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:12.639 Yeah. 00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:18.719 No, I uh I mean there's only so much time, and I think I would rather read books. 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:23.599 Yeah, read books, and I I love listening to your audiobooks. 00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:30.400 I don't know if you have any say in your narrator at all, but he's incredible, he does a fantastic job. 00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:33.440 Like he is Eddie Flynn, yeah. 00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:45.039 Yeah, Adam Sims is Eddie Flynn for a lot of people, and I I was lucky I got a an option for the first book, and I had a couple of people, and I went, well, I like this guy. 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:51.519 And um Adam

was brilliant and it's continued on, and uh I have no complaints with him. 00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:52.320 He's brilliant. 00:47:52.559 --> 00:48:13.760 I can't listen to the books, I listen to a little bit of each of them, but the way he narrates the books is brilliant and dramatic because he's a proper actor, and I've I've you know I've done an interview and stuff with Adam, and he's a lovely man, but his cadence and his rhythm is different from the cadence and rhythm that I have in my head for Eddie. 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:24.159 So I don't I can't I don't want it to Adam's rhythm, which is much better than mine, to get into my head because it might interrupt the way I hear Eddie. 00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:25.440 Yeah, that is. 00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:28.400 Because I don't really have a good mental picture of him. 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:34.880 I was just gonna ask if you had a fan cast for any of your characters, so that answers that. 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:36.559 No, I don't I don't. 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:45.360 Although we are you know we're looking at Eddie Flynn's at the moment, um but uh I I don't I don't have a I don't have a picture of my head. 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:52.639 I and that's the deliberate thing because um I only very barely described in the books. 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.360 I only give a very rough description of them in some of the books. 00:48:55.599 --> 00:49:16.800 Some of the books there's no description of them at all, and that's because I kind of want you to create your version of what he is in your mind, and it'll be different from for every every one of you, but that means that you have a personal connection with that character that is totally connected to you, and I haven't interfered with it. 00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:47.599 Um, I remember I was reading uh again Michael Connolly's Harry Bosch series, and I read them out of order, and I was reading one book, and there's a bit where and it was one of the early books, they might have been The Black Echo, the first one, which is a masterpiece, but it's a bit where Harry uh Harry Bosch is standing in front of the mirror, and you know, he's combing his hair, and he's uh Michael described his aquiline features and you know heroic jaw, and then there's a bit where Harry Bosch combs his mustache, and I nearly dropped the book. 00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:54.000 But in the other books, Harry Bosch doesn't have a mustache, there's no mention of a mustache, yeah. 00:49:54.559 --> 00:50:00.320 Suddenly has a mustache, and it really broke me out of that because in my head he he didn't have a mustache. 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:00.639 Yeah. 00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:05.199 I almost wanted Harry Bosch doesn't have a mustache, it's no mistake, you know. 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:34.320 So I'm I've been I've learned from from Michael's mustache that uh I I I leave the the the the creation of the character to you, but that also makes a rod from my own back because you know if Ellie does make it under the screen, then it won't suit anyone because each of you will have a very individual unless you so happen to imagine an actor who eventually plays him, then you'll have you know it won't it won't it won't work for you exactly. 00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:54.239 I feel like with book adaptations, readers can be so nitpicky on the physical aspects of the characters, like if the eye color doesn't match or whatever, but I think and I think these two would agree, I think it's more important to have someone who embodies the character really well and where Eddie is such a strong character. 00:50:54.320 --> 00:51:03.360 I think any of your readers would understand to like let go of the physical aspects as long as you know he is Eddie Flynn, yeah, acting-wise. 00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:04.960 So I hope so. 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:05.599 I hope so. 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:18.960 I mean that's why I I a lot of people complained when Tom Cruise uh did Jack Reacher, but I thought that first movie they really captured how Jack Reacher thinks, and for me he's a very cerebral character, so they did things well. 00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:26.239 People more some people love the TV show because the actor's much physically more resembles the character, and it's up to the individual. 00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:34.159 But the thing that Lee will always say is the books are there, the books haven't changed, and they're exactly you know, and they're a different thing. 00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:56.159 I think I also, depending on the book, will envision Eddie Flynn differently, not necessarily because of anything you did, but just because it's not very descriptive that I think it kind of changes, and so maybe I have a person that's Eddie Flynn, but there's it's kind of like a blurry face. 00:51:56.320 --> 00:51:57.039 Does that make sense? 00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:06.400 Like, okay, and so like I don't think a lot of people would be upset if you guys picked an Eddie Flynn that you felt embodied Eddie Flynn. 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:13.039 I think you guys would be surprised with people's reaction and they would be uh thrilled. 00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:24.320 I think sometimes people authors do them a disservice when they describe a character too much because if it doesn't then fit, then I think there's an uproar in readers. 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:31.199 But because there's not a huge description, I don't think you've done yourself a disservice at all with Eddie. 00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:33.679 So I'm I'm excited. 00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:40.320 I'm um can we uh discuss your little comment about you're looking for Eddie Flynn's? 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:42.480 Yeah, can you expand at all or no? 00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:52.239 I will sort of with the past two years I've been working with some brilliant people to try and bring it to a a TV series, but we'll see. 00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:59.360 We have scripts and they're great, and we have you know, we have showrunners and writers and production

companies and everything. 00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:05.360 People have spent a lot of money um so far in development, and I'm very happy to be working with people I'm working with. 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:06.400 They're the best people for it. 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:06.960 That's amazing. 00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:10.320 The only thing we don't have is a a little green light yet. 00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:15.360 But we're all very hopeful because we know it'll happen sooner rather than later. 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:25.280 Um so we'll do that, and then one of my which I can't say which one, one of my standalone books we're we're sort of developing into a a movie with a major studio as well. 00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:27.039 So I've read the script for that, and it's great. 00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.599 And looking for a director at the moment. 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:31.119 Oh well, congrats. 00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:33.280 That's amazing, amazing news. 00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:39.199 Well, I can't this may be the last you hear of any of it because Hollywood being what it is, but oh yeah, yeah, sure. 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:41.519 Still even the thought and the hope of it. 00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:42.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:43.199 Wow. 00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:45.679 I'm we'll we'll start a petition. 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:47.679 It needs to come. 00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:57.519 This is um kind of a little bit off topic, but and we should have asked this at the beginning, but do you have a preferred reading order that people read your books? 00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:06.719 Would you suggest to start with Eddie Flynn, or is there a different standalone book that you think this is a really great jumping point or starting point with my writing? 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:08.639 Do you have a preference or do you not care? 00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:17.760 Um well, I have I had a plan for this because when I I love uh reading series books, um, and in all different genres. 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.400 You know, I love fantasy series, well, I love um crime series, everything. 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:32.719 So um, one of the worst things you know, that are or more challenging things that I've experienced is someone will recommend the series to me and say it's great. 00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:34.559 Now you have to read them in order. 00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:42.639 First couple of books aren't great, but the fourth one, oh my god, and then you're in like going, well, hang on, do I have to read three sort of okay books? 00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:44.719 Power pick of these books. 00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:46.719 Um, so I didn't want that. 00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:52.800 So they're all every single book is written to be a complete standalone story. 00:54:53.039 --> 00:55:00.239 And it has to work for two readers, has to work for the people who've read all the books, and for the people who have never read any of the books. 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:03.199 And that's something I put a lot of work in. 00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:07.920 So if you've read them all, uh I'm not telling you anything you don't know already. 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:10.880 You know, every everything has to be fresh and new for you. 00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:13.199 You're being reintroduced to all the characters. 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:19.599 I don't want a new reader to think, hang on, I've missed something out here, or I'm I've come late to the party. 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:25.039 They're all written to be read in any order you want, and you can pick them up in any order. 00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:27.039 Um, so there is no order for that. 00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.239 And I've I've written a couple of standalone books. 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:33.440 Um, and you and it's different from for every country. 00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:38.159 So, you know, like in Poland, most people know me for a book I wrote called Twisted. 00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:48.639 In the US, most people know me for either two books: either Kill for Me, Kill for You, which is a standalone outside the series, or 13 um or 50-50. 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:54.960 So um it's different, and then there are, but you can start in any order you want. 00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:59.599 And the thing is, I think I'm a I'm a better writer now than I was when I started. 00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:02.880 So the first book is not my best book. 00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:05.519 I was still learning and trying to figure out how to be a writer. 00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:08.480 I think as the books go on, I think they get better. 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:09.360 Oh, yeah. 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:14.480 Well, I can attest because I started my the first book I read by you was 5050. 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:15.039 Right. 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:21.599 And I had seen someone post like a TikTok that was like, you can read them out of order, like it doesn't matter. 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:25.119 That one just grabbed my attention and I started with that one. 00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:32.079 But then the second I finished it, I was like, wait, I gotta go start from book like I was ready to start book one and continue on. 00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:38.320 And so, yeah, for anyone listening, you can start anywhere, but you will want to start from the beginning. 00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:39.760 I'm pretty certain. 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:40.159 Yeah. 00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:54.239 So oh yeah, but oh, once you've read one, the the idea is oh think, well, I quite you know, I didn't know this was a because it it doesn't I I'm not I've sort of been writing a series in secret because it does it doesn't say in any of my books an Eddie Flynn novel or something like that. 00:56:54.480 --> 00:57:04.880 Because they didn't want to put off time first-time readers, they're all written to invite first-time readers in sake, and they're all they've all got their individual hooks um on the cover. 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.199 You know, what if it's a serial killer on a jury? 00:57:07.519

--> 00:57:12.000 You know, what if two sisters are accused of murder and they they're they're accusing each other? 00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:15.840 Um, one of them is the killer of which one, um, stuff like this. 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:21.679 So you've got all the hooks, and people read and think, and I hope they think, I quite like these characters. 00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:23.199 I I'll read another one. 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.440 And yes, hopefully you buy them all. 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:26.320 Yes. 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:31.199 You have the best hooks, but also what I appreciate is you deliver on those hooks. 00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:38.480 Sometimes there's hooks on thrillers and they don't really meet your expectations, but yours are always so good. 00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:39.599 So good. 00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:40.480 Thank you. 00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:41.519 Thank you very much. 00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:43.039 I really appreciate that. 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:45.119 That's that's that's lovely to hear. 00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:57.440 I've also grown a really fond attachment to all of your characters, and um you will be paying for my fair therapy bill for a few of your books. 00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:04.960 I won't say which ones, but Okay, I won't be talking about I was wrecked. 00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:17.760 I won't say anything else, but I think after that book, I was like, I would suggest reading them in order if you like a good like attachment to characters. 00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:25.840 But you do a very good job of like if anyone were to pick up any of your books, they would know exactly what's going on. 00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:30.880 And so I think you do both very, very, very well. 00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:32.480 Thank you. 00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:34.400 That's very kind of you to say. 00:58:34.639 --> 00:58:36.639 Again, that particular book. 00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:42.880 Um, yeah, there are some characters I there are some characters who reoccur, and not everybody makes it in my books. 00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:43.920 We'll say that. 00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:53.760 But even if you've read one of the later ones, um, if you go back then to read a book, maybe where something happens to that character. 00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:59.360 Uh, and I've had this before from some readers who've done this, you still won't see it coming. 00:58:59.519 --> 00:58:59.920 Yeah. 00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:04.239 When something does happen to that character, again, because it's written that way. 00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:06.880 You'll still have the same shock and surprise. 00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:07.440 Yeah. 00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:09.360 That is such talent, genuinely. 00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:10.480 That's crazy. 00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:11.199 That's crazy. 00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:11.920 Yes. 00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:16.159 Ugh You're just talented, and we love we love talking to talented people. 00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:16.960 Yes. 00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:28.960 Is there a storyline that you have been wanting to write for a while that maybe you haven't, or maybe you have just barely started, like outside of what you already have out? 00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:31.920 Yes, I'm writing a book at the moment. 00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:34.400 Um which is a standalone. 00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:37.920 So the book currently out in the US is two kinds of strangers. 00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:42.159 Um, the book that's coming out in March is called One of Us Is Guilty. 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:42.639 Oh. 00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:48.719 Um, and that is I'd written a book before called 5050 about those two sisters. 00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:55.920 And the reason I wrote that is a lot of crime novels, you know, there'll be a murderer and there'll be five or six suspects. 00:59:56.239 --> 00:59:57.920 And which one is the killer? 00:59:58.079 --> 00:59:59.440 That mystery element. 00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:03.280 But I wanted to see if I could do it with just two suspects. 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:10.719 And for each chap, you've read two sisters, and you're reading the book going, Oh, it's definitely it's Alexandra, she's the killer, she's the killer. 01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:13.599 You turn the page, oh, I got it totally wrong, it's Sophia. 01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:16.719 And for as much as I can, the whole book to go like that. 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:24.960 Yeah, but because of the nature of my writing of that book, you couldn't really get inside both sisters' heads. 01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:32.400 There is, you do see it from a good part of the book from one of their points of view, which is simply known as she. 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:39.920 It's one of the sisters, and you see exactly how she's done it and what she's up to, but you don't know which sister it is. 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:43.920 But then uh you can't be in the other sister's head. 01:00:44.320 --> 01:00:49.760 So one of us is guilty, is um my attempt to kind of rectify that. 01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:54.239 So this book is about a toxic power couple. 01:00:54.559 --> 01:01:04.400 So Gone Girl was recently voted um like the number one thriller um in the New York Times of the last 25 years or something, and so it is, it's a great book. 01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:05.440 I love that book. 01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:06.800 I love that toxic couple. 01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:10.719 You don't know what's going on with them, they're both kind of weird and creepy. 01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:14.559 Yeah, and I wanted to do my I wanted to do my own creepy weird couple book. 01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:15.360 Yeah. 01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:29.440 So one of us is guilty is um uh is uh Patrick and Vanessa, and Patrick is the son of this media mogul, and he's running for governor of New York City, but he's having an affair. 01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:43.119 And uh the book opens on the events of one night when he realizes his mistress, he's in his mistress's apartment, and he realizes and she's his assistant, he realizes she's been lying to him

from the day he met her. 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:46.639 And she has information which could be really damning to him. 01:01:47.199 --> 01:02:02.480 That same night, his wife Vanessa figures out and realizes for sure he's having an affair with this woman, and she goes to the apartment, and we know both have been in the apartment that night, and we know the next morning the mistress is found dead. 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:07.519 Oh and both Patrick and Vanessa are lying to the police and lying to each other. 01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:10.719 But you again, you don't really know why. 01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:16.880 So I that's that's the book for next year, and Eddie Flynn comes in to represent um Vanessa. 01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:27.679 Uh and he is who'll only and Ellie's the other thing is for a con man who tricks and cons people all the time, he's a very moral character, he'll only represent someone he believes is innocent. 01:02:28.159 --> 01:02:35.199 This one, this time, he knows she's not telling him the truth, but he also kind of can't he can't let her go. 01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:40.000 He thinks Vanessa is really a victim and he's gonna help her in any way he can. 01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:43.840 So, um but he wonders all the time through the book, have I got this wrong? 01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:46.320 So that's a fun one for next year. 01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:51.840 But the book I'm writing at the minute is a story, it's an idea I had a couple of years ago for a standalone. 01:02:52.079 --> 01:03:02.800 And um it's like a serial killer chase across uh America with uh a hostage into it. 01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:11.519 So um uh and it's that interplay between this the person who's been taken hostage and the serial killer and what happens to them. 01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:17.199 Um and what if you know you're kicked up by a serial killer, they know where you live. 01:03:17.679 --> 01:03:28.719 The police have put in it put out an APV and there's a description of this killer, and the killer sits down a train and says, The police are looking for me, they're not looking for two people. 01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:31.039 You're coming with me, we're going to New York. 01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:37.519 He takes the person's wallet and says, I know where you live, I know where your what your your address is, I know what your wife looks like. 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:42.000 If you try and do anything or alert anyone, I'm gonna get away. 01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:44.159 The first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna kill your wife. 01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:45.920 So you're stuck with me. 01:03:46.480 --> 01:04:02.960 And as they go across America, they're pursued by this female FBI agent, and she sort of gets the there are some clues pointing to the identity of this killer, but it's sort of leading her to believe that it's not the killer, it's leading them to believe that the hostage is the murderer. 01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:09.679 So you're taking hostage, and then the police think you're the

killer, and the whole thing takes place over three days. 01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:11.519 So that's what I'm mining at the moment. 01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:13.280 That's so cool. 01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:15.519 Oh, and there's a twister six along the way. 01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:16.880 Okay. 01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:17.920 Or six. 01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:18.960 Twister six. 01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:21.599 I don't know what's wrong with me, but I love a good book about a serial killer. 01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:22.000 Yeah. 01:04:22.159 --> 01:04:24.559 So I think Yeah, fascinating. 01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:25.199 Yeah. 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:25.599 Yeah. 01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:30.159 The one with um is that 50-50 on the where he's on the jury? 01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:31.039 Thirteen. 01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:33.119 Yeah. 01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:34.239 Crazy. 01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:35.679 Oh my gosh. 01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:54.559 They kind of all blend together in my brain, like just like titles, but like there's there's very distinctly different cases for and they're just the way you write your villains are unlike anything I have read, and I love it. 01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:55.599 I love it. 01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:56.320 Thank you. 01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:58.480 It's like twisted, entertaining times. 01:04:58.719 --> 01:04:59.119 Yes. 01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:04.559 Yeah, they have to be all, you know, very scary, um, but real as well. 01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:10.880 So I do like you to see them as real people, which maybe even makes them slightly more scary. 01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:12.719 Oh. 01:05:13.840 --> 01:05:15.519 Well, so tell us. 01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:17.599 What are you currently reading right now? 01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:18.880 Anything good? 01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:21.599 Uh, what am I reading at the moment? 01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:25.440 Um I have a few books on the go at the moment. 01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:32.880 So um I uh have been catching up on the Slow Horses books by my friend Mick Herron. 01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:38.639 I don't know if you've watched the Apple TV series, but the books are brilliant uh and really funny and entertaining. 01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:44.800 It's about a anyone who hasn't read them, it's about a group of spies uh in London. 01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:47.280 Uh have you read any of the Slow Horses books? 01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:49.280 No, how have I not heard about this? 01:05:50.079 --> 01:06:14.559 So it's about um a group of so you have MI5 who you're in Regents Park in London, and if you do something wrong as a spy, say you make a major mess up of something, uh they they don't fire you, they send you to this place called Slough House, which is this decrepit building uh in London where all the bad spies you know go. 01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:32.800 And that building is run by this character called Jackson Lamb, who's played by Gary Oldman in the series, and he is um a really disgusting man, but he's also like he was a spy during the Cold War, he's also the smartest person in the whole Secret Service, okay. 01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:36.159 Um, and they get up to lots of chips and make lots of mistakes. 01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:39.679 Um, but they're very, very funny and very well written. 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:42.639 Um, and London's a great character in those books. 01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:47.519 So they're the first one's called Slow Horses uh by Mick Heron. 01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:49.440 So uh I would recommend those. 01:06:49.599 --> 01:06:50.880 What else would I recommend? 01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:55.199 Um quite a very quick recommendation for fantasy stuff because I know you read a lot of fantasy. 01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:58.800 Um uh Joe Abercrombie's The Devils. 01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:00.880 Yes, I started that. 01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:02.079 I really enjoyed that. 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:03.360 That's really good fun. 01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:06.480 It's kind of like the dirty dozen, but like a fantasy version of that. 01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:18.559 Yeah, where you have, you know, um a werewolf and a laconic vampire, and you know, a terrible magician and an elf and somebody else and a cursed knight all have to go on this mission. 01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:20.559 So I I thought that was a fun read. 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:21.519 Yeah, that's fun. 01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:25.599 He does a good job at like intertwining humor with his fantasy books. 01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:27.599 He does, they're all very funny. 01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:29.440 I love a band of misfits. 01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:36.480 I read the devils, and it was just like the perfect band of misfits together trying to accomplish one goal and they're fighting and they're they don't get along. 01:07:36.559 --> 01:07:37.199 I just love it. 01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:38.159 It's so good. 01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:40.480 It's really good, really good. 01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:42.239 I'm excited to finish it. 01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:47.920 I'm uh me and my husband are listening to it together, and uh we're enjoying it so far. 01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:50.480 So it's good as fun. 01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:51.760 Awesome. 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:55.519 Well, we just had the greatest time chatting with you. 01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:59.440 Yeah, we could listen to your stories all day. 01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:08.960 So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us, and we will leave all of your info where to find you in our show notes. 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:17.920 Um, it sounds like for anyone who hasn't yet read your books, hopefully this was a good introduction to start them. 01:08:18.079 --> 01:08:20.880 And people who are familiar with you have a lot to look forward to. 01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:26.560 So I know I am very excited for what's coming next. 01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:29.439 But we just wanted to say thank you so much for your time. 01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:32.479 And yeah, we just really appreciate it. 01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:33.439 Yeah, thank you. 01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:34.960 No, no, it's been really fun. 01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:36.319 Thank you so much for having me here. 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.199 Really appreciate it, and thank you for all of you recommending books. 01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:46.079 It's fantastic to see you know how well you're you've you've done and um more power to you and and keep going. 01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:47.199 It's great to see. 01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:48.960 Thank you so much.