บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Samuel Delany, Hogg, pulp fiction, Mott NYC, and thirty-something gay guys

as it were. 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.879 I've been listening to a lot of Race Chaser. 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:26.319 It's I it's a podcast I'm a fan of. 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:27.840 I've been a fan of it for a long time. 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:33.199 I've listened to it for years and years and years, and so I started listening to the coverage from the beginning. 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:34.319 Well, season two. 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:35.439 I skipped season one. 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:41.520 I don't know why, but I started with season two, and so I've been listening up to their recaps of Drag Race. 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.000 Now I'm in season seven. 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:59.039 And you know, it's funny and it's a hoot, but it's also weird because they're recapping something that happened in the past, and now I'm listening to it as a product of the past. 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:00.319 So it was like 2019. 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.599 So I was locked in 2019 for a while, 2019 vibes. 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:05.680 I think I mentioned that last time. 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:11.680 And you know, they made all these references to things going on at that time, and it made me nostalgic. 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:17.280 It made me very nostalgic for 2019, sort of the pre-COVID stuff. 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:23.120 Seemed like a simpler time, seemed like a more optimistic time, seemed like a better time. 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:24.639 I did miss that. 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:26.000 Did I miss that part of my life? 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:26.639 I guess so. 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.240 It was kind of a simpler time. 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:38.800 It was a time where I would go to work and come home and yeah, listen to Race Chaser and sort of go on about my little day. 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.080 Pitter patter, just put her around, little me. 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:44.000 Little me doing God knows what. 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:45.199 God knows what. 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:46.400 No, I was writing a book. 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.319 I was working on a novel manuscript. 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:50.719 The novel didn't sell, but I did get an agent. 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:52.319 It was just a simpler time. 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.840 It was a simpler time, a more depressed time, probably, but sometimes the simpler times are. 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:05.520 Anyway, then, you know, they went into COVID and all this social justice, Black Lives Matter stuff they started. 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.039 You like the tenor changed. 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:17.519 Oh, it was interesting listening to Willem talk on Race Chaser in 2019, and he was very like cancel culture conscious. 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:18.720 He was like, Oh, can I say that? 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:19.360 Can we say that now? 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:20.079 Can we still say that? 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:27.600 And then that tone really shifts in 2020 to more kind of deferential. 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:32.399 I think I'm s they're still in 2021 now, so it's still kind of the COVID moment. 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:36.240 They're talking about the world opening up and all that kind of stuff. 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:37.839 It's just fun. 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.199 It's a bit of nostalgia, it's a bit of a look back. 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:49.040 It's a bit of a look back, but already the 2021 stuff, there's some cultural references in there that I didn't realize were that long ago. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:54.959 Because 2021 was five years ago, but it's some stuff that feels like a marker of the current moment. 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:57.199 As I say that, I can't think of one. 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.600 I can't think of a single thing that made me feel that way. 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:03.040 Did I write anything down? 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:04.079 Let's see. 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.560 I was so excited to record this, I didn't even like glance at my notes. 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:10.639 What's in my notes? 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.279 Did I make any race chaser notes? 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:14.959 What did I say? 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.040 Nope, I just put race chaser. 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:19.759 Race chaser! It's up at the top. 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:24.879 Um, so you know that's the vibe, kind of August. 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.759 I've been writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, writing. 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:29.519 Actually, no, I'm more in editing. 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:35.759 I got 50,000 words of my sci-fi book 433 Eros. 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:37.600 It's the working title. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.000 It's the name of An Asteroid. 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:41.519 433 Eros. 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:44.800 And you know it's all about love. 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.319 So what I'm should I tell people what it's about? 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:49.519 Should it tell people? 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:49.920 I don't know. 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.800 Am I gonna get like scooped or something by the two people who listen to this? 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:56.720 Um, no, what is it about? 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:04.160 It's what I'm telling people, log line is it's about gay for pay drone pilots in the near future. 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.240 Well, not that near, maybe not that near. 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.120 It's about gay for pay drone pilots. 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:14.720 So there's a lot of like, is this love? 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:15.759 Is this sex? 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:25.199 Sex and love and violence and mediated violence and weird attachments, drone pilot PTSD. 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:33.040 You know, drone pilots fall in love kind of with their subjects near, but they become kind of weirdly bonded with them. 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:43.199 It's weird writing this book because I think the reality of the drone pilot program is actually weirder than the sci-fi thing. 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:45.839 Because you because you can write about

the reality in a sci-fi context. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:53.199 Like I can take all that stuff, like about drone pilots kind of becoming enamored and obsessed with the people that they have to kill. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.560 And you put that in a sci-fi book and you think, oh, it's fiction, that's fiction. 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:57.759 But really, no, it's real. 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:09.600 And I've been reading, or I have now months ago, read some of the accounts, autobiographies, memoirs, stuff like that, and then reports about the drone pilot program, and they're so strange. 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:11.839 They're so so so so so strange. 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:17.839 Because they do kind of fall in love with these people that they're tracking for months, months, and months. 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:38.480 The drone pilots fall in love with them, and when they kill them, at least the accounts of the people who are writing these books, the drone pilots are so firmly, they're they have such firm convictions that they're doing the right thing, that they're killing bad guys. 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.439 And it's happening over there, you know, they're killing people in Syria and they have to die. 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:47.519 And if there's uh casualties, that's just what happens in war. 00:07:48.560 --> 00:08:11.600 Um, but then on another level, they also develop these weird bonds and attachments, so they get this horrible PTSD from things where you know they have to go to work at their nine to five, basically, in like a you know, a mall, basically, and shoot up some kid's soccer party, and then they go home and pick up their kids from soccer practice. 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:21.199 And you know, intellectually they think they're doing the right thing, but I think part of them knows that they're doing something horrible. 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:30.720 And the the like the rationale in all these books for the drone pilot program for all these attacks is so flimsy. 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:38.000 Like it really is just like people in Iraq and Syria are just harboring bad guys. 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.759 They just the bad guys who are out to get America because they're bad. 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:47.519 You know, there's not a lot of probing of like, well, why why is somebody out to get America? 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:50.320 Why are they resentful of America? 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:56.559 Is it just because they're just innately programmed that way to just hate America for no reason? 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:57.840 Hmm, why why? 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:04.399 Why would you dedicate your life to violence against a country just for no reason? 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:09.919 You know, why would they endanger not only their own lives but their families' lives and everybody they know? 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:12.399 It's just arbitrary? 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:15.519 They there's no reason why they would do this. 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.759 It's you know, there's no probing of that. 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.600 So these these drum pilots come across as very stupid. 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:40.399 And I realize that the ones who are writing these books are are selected to do it to make propaganda, but I don't get the sense that there's like, I don't know, a widespread um post-reflection or self-insight about what these military people are doing. 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:47.679 I think I think the more I learn about the military, even less sympathetic I get to them. 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:56.240 You know, I think there's this like idea that some people join the military because it'll pay for college or you know, pay off student loans, or or whatever. 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.799 They don't have other opportunities, and so they're forced into it. 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:01.600 So, you know, you don't hate the soldier, you hate the system. 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:05.919 But these soldiers are not very sympathetic. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:10.960 It's it's a lot of people choosing to do something that they don't have to do. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.200 You know, they're not conscripted to do it. 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:17.200 There's no draft, they're not forced to do it, so they are choosing to do this. 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.320 You could choose to do other things. 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:22.240 There are other paths available. 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.639 So I'm really in this whole process become even less sympathetic. 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:33.919 It's the American military, which obviously sucks, but I think it it the system sucks, but I also kind of think the people in it suck. 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:41.440 Um and hopefully Pete Buttig um never becomes president. 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:48.159 Hopefully, we just nobody uh just elects these military people who are who are just horrible. 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:49.919 Who are horrible people? 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.159 Um how about that? 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.200 That's up top. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:54.399 That's about up top. 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:55.840 What else do I have in my notes? 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:57.759 So much has happened, you guys. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:02.000 So much has happened, but yet not that much has really happened. 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:04.799 I feel like I'm going a mile a minute. 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.679 I'm just going a mile a minute, and I hope the audio quality is good. 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:09.600 What am I reading, you ask? 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:11.759 I'm reading Hog. 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.919 I'm reading Hog by Samuel Delaney. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:21.759 And boy, oh boy, I'm slapping my thighs because there's so much to unpack. 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:23.600 Hear that? 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:25.200 It's me clapping. 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:28.399 So I think we're gonna talk about hog. 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:30.080 We can talk about it today. 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:31.840 We're gonna have to talk

about it in the future. 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.639 I'm maybe a third of the way in. 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.879 I do get the sense it's gonna be a bit repetitive. 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:42.480 Whew, what what an experience. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:48.480 Um, so I'm reading Hog now, and what did I read earlier this summer? 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.759 Oh, the um bum bum bum. 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:52.879 I gotta walk. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:54.720 My brain shuts off. 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.679 Um what did I read earlier this summer? 00:11:57.759 --> 00:11:59.039 We talked all about it. 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:04.720 Um, the the book with the prostitution sluts, Dennis Cooper. 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:06.480 Dennis Cooper the Sluts. 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:10.000 Now, Samuel Delaney. 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:12.960 If you don't know Samuel Delaney, you should. 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:14.879 But at one point I didn't either. 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.879 So he became known as a sci-fi author. 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.120 And I've read a couple of his books now. 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:26.960 Uh just a couple weeks ago I read Nova, which one of his was one of his early sci-fi hits. 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:27.759 We've talked about it. 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:29.360 They kind of like sketchy. 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:31.120 I have thoughts. 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:32.399 I have thoughts there too. 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.200 So maybe we start there with Samuel Delaney. 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.559 He was a pulp fiction writer, science fiction. 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:42.080 He started when he was like in his early 20s. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.840 Um I think you know, wrote to make money. 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:53.200 He kind of from what it sounds like, he he churned out some of the science fiction stuff and made a lot of money off it, got won prizes. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:54.639 The early stuff is not great. 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:56.799 It's not super well crafted. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:00.159 It's not super well crafted, it is really imaginative. 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.519 There's a lot going on. 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:06.559 Like Nova, there's a lot about tarot in Nova, which is kind of weird. 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:11.919 Like in the future, I guess, in the future, as he envisions it, people take tarot really seriously. 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:20.240 Um that's weird, that's new, but you know, there's a lot of like different things. 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.799 They do plug in to do work. 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:35.120 He does think through he does think through societies that aren't like techno-optimistic wonderful and are sort of more ambiguous. 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:42.960 I think that's one of his um more like admirable contributions. 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:54.799 So in Nova, anyway, so in Nova, there's um it's the future from Earth, and people are what are they? 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:56.159 Cyborg studs. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.519 Cyborg studs. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:07.360 So they have little jacks in their bodies that so they can hook into machines and have a sort of cybernetic consciousness and control machines and do jobs there. 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:26.480 And he talks about, or the narrator, whatever people describe in the book, how this changed society, because now there's a whole now laborers can go anywhere and do anything and just be cyborg since they sort of just drift and flit throughout the universe, throughout the human societies, throughout the universe. 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:35.600 Anyway, so that it the plot of the book kind of is ooky kooky, whatever, kind of falls apart. 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:37.840 No, it doesn't fall apart in Nova. 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:46.559 It's like two young rich guys antagonizing each other and competing, which isn't super compelling. 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.240 You don't really, you don't really care about these two young rich guys. 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:56.159 And the sort of like elite society as it's drawn isn't really that compelling. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:06.159 But he does like think through what are the codes of the society, what are the different what are the different parts of it, not in like a fantasy way. 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:16.879 It doesn't feel fantasy coded, it feels more uh like a political political novel somehow, I don't know. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:21.519 Um, but more invested in in realism than fantasy. 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.960 Um so I appreciate that. 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:25.840 Appreciate it. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.879 I think it's good, or it's super influential. 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.759 Everybody references Nova, so it's one of those sci-fi books you gotta read. 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:47.600 And I think the thing that I was thinking about pulp fiction and like his work, Samuel Delaney's work, it's like the individual works are not amazing. 00:15:47.840 --> 00:16:02.159 The individual works have or are you know have different parts and it's sort of weak and they're sketchy, and there's like sketchy I mean is in like things are sketched in, but they they don't seem fully fleshed out, and there's ideas that are aren't super developed. 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:19.360 So you know they feel incomplete, but I think taken as a whole, or taken as part of a series, that's when the pulp fiction that's when the value of it more. 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:38.240 So it's like it's not about individual masterworks, it's like it's not and it's not about a genre so much as it is about sort of or a series, what about a collection, and oo, a corpus comes together to say something and become impressive. 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:52.399 Like not, I don't know, or I've yet to read a single Samuelney sci-fi book that I feel like is like a real masterpiece, or I would put up there as like, you know, 10 favorite books or whatever. 00:16:53.519 --> 00:17:05.519 But I do feel like he's one of my favorite authors

already because of bits and pieces of his different books. 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:07.519 If that makes sense. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:09.039 Does that make sense? 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:16.400 So it's less about a single work and it's more about a body of work, I guess. 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.279 But it's and it's not even like it's like, oh, he did a lot of like okay things. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:34.000 It's you know, there are themes in the books that interrelate, and you can see how something gets developed here and and developed over there. 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:35.359 Oh, there's a fire somewhere. 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:36.480 I can see some smoke. 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:40.559 I can see some smoke, hope everyone's okay. 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:41.920 Doesn't look like a lot of smoke. 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.119 Anyway, that's neither here nor there. 00:17:45.200 --> 00:18:02.319 It was just something I was thinking about with pulp fiction, and something that maybe I'm a bit nostalgic for is being a writer and having that flexibility to experiment, to play, to come to this place to play as a writer. 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:13.200 Whereas now it feels like everything is so marketable or so or so niche. 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:14.720 I don't know. 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:24.480 I guess it's it's it's always a trap to look back with nostalgia, but um that is something I'm enjoying about reading some of that pulp fiction. 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:32.400 Is that I I get to put less pressure on each individual book and just sort of take it in, let it all wash over me. 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.160 Let it wash over me. 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:36.640 Um, all right. 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.480 That's that's that. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:40.559 Hog. 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:42.240 Hog. 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.279 Hog, hog, hog. 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.799 Weird, weird book. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:52.400 Difficult book. 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.359 Unpublishable book for decades. 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:01.359 So hog, if you don't know, in some circles is really highly regarded. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.519 I think more now. 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:09.359 But it was unpublishable for a long time because it's ostensibly porn. 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:11.920 Ostensibly. 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.759 Ostensibly- Oh, we gotta unpack. 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.880 Oh, we gotta unpack. 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.799 It's ostensibly porn. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:23.839 So I think in a superficial level it's porn, but it's violent rape porn. 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.319 Rape, incest, porn. 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:42.960 So reading it is a weird experience because it is written like a pornographic story with rape and incest. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:59.920 The main character is this character, Hogg, H-O-G-G, and he is a rapist for hire, and goes around and rapes women for hire. 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:07.839 Men hire him, it's only been men so far, who have hired him to go and rape women that they want to get revenge on. 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:27.680 So obviously, we're already in uh uh unusual territory for for a book, and then for it to be a porn book, to be reading a porn book about rape uh uh uh uh of women, okay. 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.680 So we're in territory, we we see where there are red flags. 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:36.799 We see where there are red flags, and we see why the book wasn't published for decades. 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:46.880 I guess they it was rejected even by the guy who published or re-issued, you know, Marquis de Sade and published Lolita. 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:50.160 I said Hog was the one book he would not do. 00:20:51.359 --> 00:21:12.160 Okay, so is it rate porn ostensibly, but where it gets a little more complicated, or maybe a lot more complicated, is it's also gay porn, and it's like filth gay porn. 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:31.680 So a hog doesn't bathe ever and doesn't it seems use a toilet, so he just peas himself and shits himself, and so the he's just filthy and disgusting. 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:39.359 So the like the other character maybe like the main character, maybe not the is he the narrator? 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.279 No, he's not the narrator, it's not first person. 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:42.799 No, it is first person. 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:44.720 It is first person. 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:54.160 So the first person narrator is a young guy who seems like a stand in for the author. 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.599 But really, what I'm I'm basing that off of is that he's a white passing black man. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:09.039 Young white passing black man, so uh that doesn't need to be Samuel Delaney, though that is, I think, also Samuel Delaney. 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:17.759 Anyway, so it's first person, and this young guy, gay. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.400 Well, I don't know if he do he ever says he's gay. 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:32.720 This young guy is becomes the sexual possession of Hog and follows him around and is his like sexual plaything. 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.279 So Hog fucks him, he sucks Hog. 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:42.720 Hog sticks his fingers, his toes into the narrator's mouth. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:56.400 Hog has a group of other rapists that he he uses that he hires to go and like gangbang women, and they all use this young man boy question mark. 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.799 I think 17 maybe boy. 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:05.680 Um and use him sexually. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:12.480 The boy is only too happy to do all these things, and it's all filthy, ridiculous. 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:19.119 You know, he's like he's he's he's smelling the shit on someone's dick. 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:32.079 He's uh trying to uh drink all the piss that he can, but it's it's falling out of his mouth and running all over him and onto the boots, and it's all porn. 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.400 It's all porn, it's like filth porn. 00:23:34.799 -->

00:23:41.279 Basically, whatever you can think of uh being bad is in there. 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:46.880 It doesn't seem like there's limits um to what it is. 00:23:48.000 --> 00:24:21.359 Uh I mean the opening chapter is the young boy is working as essentially like a sex slave in the basement of this house for this other boy who's also um using his sister as a sex slave, and like the dad comes down and fucks the girl, and the narrator sucks him off, and then a group of guys come and gang bang blah blah blah. 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:24.079 It's all woof. 00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:26.480 It's all woof and it's all porn. 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:38.799 So it's a weird experience of reading it because there's titillating aspects to it, but it's also horrible. 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:50.880 And that's I think the the weirdness of the experience of reading it is the disgust, the mixing of disgust and arousal. 00:24:51.279 --> 00:25:03.759 And I think that's part of what starts to take it out of the register of just pure porn and starts to be more about an investigation, is that pretentious? 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:15.039 An investigation of what people of uh of sex and violence in America, and of how nasty it can be. 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:17.200 Of how nasty it be- then there's passages. 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:23.920 There's passages that make it a little clearer where someone says something, which I'm gonna dig up. 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:25.680 Okay, this is Hogg. 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:31.519 This is Hogg talking to another boy about um being a rapist for hire. 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.000 It's a good profession, boy, Hogg said. 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.960 Like the man says, ain't nothing you can do in this world today. 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:45.440 Go to the pictures, buy some food, or even throw away the package to come in, throw away the package at coming, that don't bring somebody closer to hurt. 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.400 At least this way you know that you ain't making your money by making them pictures or packages. 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:54.000 And when you're hurting somebody, you're hurting them. 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.799 You look them right in the eye and do it. 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:02.400 You can't very well fuck somebody without looking them in the eye unless, Hog chuckled, you do it doggy style. 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:07.359 Even so, you ain't dropping no bombs on 500 people you ain't never seen. 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:13.119 You ain't signing no papers that's gonna put a thousand people who ain't never heard your name out of a house and a job. 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:22.000 You ain't enjoying no benefits that come down the pike three years after you finish with hurting folks you didn't even know existed, much less you was hurting them. 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:34.240 And you can look at any TV newscast or listen to any radio report, even if it's about something you just done, and I had that happen to me three times now, and no, you

got more sense of duty than they do. 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:39.440 Okay, so that's sort of a thesis statement, I think, of the book. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.400 Which is how I would assume you're supposed to read it. 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:48.160 You know, Samon Delaney, judging from the sci-fi stuff, is not afraid to be didactic. 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:56.400 He's not afraid to tell you exactly in a sort of very, you know, sci-fi super analytical nerd kind of way. 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.279 Like the way this society works is that it's built up XYZ. 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.480 You know, he will tell you. 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:04.319 He's not, he's he's afraid he's not afraid to tell and not show. 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:15.599 So I I do think you can take that a bit on on face value of of what the of what they do. 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.079 Okay, something else that Hogg says. 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.680 Because people don't even want to see shit like that happen. 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.880 I mean, they'd be happier pretending it didn't even happen, but you're gonna see enough of the kind of stuff I usually do. 00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:29.519 Yeah. 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:39.759 This is okay, this is after a scene where, okay, yeah, Hogg causes like a disgusting scene in a diner and like shits himself or whatever on peas and blah, blah, blah. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:40.880 It's like disgusting. 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.480 And he just walks out. 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.119 And then he says he's gonna go, he's gonna clean himself off and go back in. 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.680 And I look at him and say with a big grin, what you mean? 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:56.160 I was hauling crates of peaches yesterday down near Chattahoochee, and they'd go away just as happy because people don't even want to see shit like that happen. 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.000 I mean, they'd be happy pretending it didn't even happen. 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:18.799 Yeah, so it's about violence in America, but how America's so fucked up and destroys people is so horrible to people, and enjoys it, and there's pleasure in it, and that's the pleasure of America is dropping bombs on people. 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:39.599 Like what are they saying, dropping bombs and killing 500 people, or being so detached from the violence that results from what you do, the the destruction that results from what you do, you know, the destruction that results from buying, you know, new shirts that are made in a horrible factory, and you're destroying the environment and blah blah blah. 00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.359 You know, all the horrible crap that's underpinning American society. 00:28:44.799 --> 00:29:02.720 And so this book, the book is it you're reading this book, it's porn and disgusting porn, and it's sort of like being forced to look at the shit that America does, being disgusted with America, disgusted with American violence. 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.599 I you know, I I

that's I sense the idea. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:18.799 That's I sense the idea, and what I appreciate about it, what I appreciate about it is that it doesn't do it in a way that wraps it up in a box and kind of makes you feel better. 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.799 In the way that I would say 2666. 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:29.119 2666 has that passage, the long passage, it's like the litany of the femicides in Mexico. 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:33.839 And I think you read that and you sort of get through it and you sort of abstract it and you intellectualize it. 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.519 And I don't think it really, at least to me, it wasn't really disturbing. 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:42.400 I think you read it as an aesthetic exercise. 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:48.480 You know, you read it as art, that you say, okay, wow, that was profound. 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.640 And wow, this book is formally so interesting and so amazing. 00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:08.799 And then you go home and you congratulate yourself for being an intellectual and reading an intellectually challenging book, and then you know, being aware of the femicides in Mexico, and you probably feel great as an American that you are so smart and liberal and wow, what a good citizen. 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.160 This hog, I don't think, lets you off the hook like that. 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:13.759 I think it's disturbing. 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.960 I think it fucks you up to like your core. 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:26.960 It makes you so aware of of just like fearful, it's just it's a disturbing, it's a disturbing freaking read. 00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:29.039 The sluts. 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:32.480 The sluts, I think, is similar. 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:34.000 I think the sluts is similar. 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:35.279 I think the sluts is similar. 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:36.319 I think the sluts is similar. 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.440 I think the sluts is similar. 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.759 Is the sluts more sophisticated? 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:46.160 I mean, formally, it's definitely formally more sophisticated with you know the message board and everything. 00:30:46.559 --> 00:31:02.480 But hog is like oh, just the brutality of it and the way that parts of it are arousing or or tittle, like there are gay porn aspects of it that it's like, oh yeah, like you know, the gangbang, whatever. 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:14.640 So it does connect, I think, to make me at least be more aware of the kind of violence of sexuality, and like we're just questioning more, like, what the heck are we doing? 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:16.079 What are gay guys doing? 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:32.160 Like the weird, the weird way that gay guys go about with their sexuality and and sex, it's just like what's going on, and then so many, it's not just gay guys having weird, fucked up sexuality. 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.079 Short isn't straight guys, and I think people well beyond that. 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.000 Ghlaine Maxwell. 00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:43.759 Um, I don't know. 00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:44.640 I don't know. 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:45.680 That's a ramble. 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.960 That's a ramble, but that's what we're on. 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:49.839 That's what we're on. 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:50.799 We're on hog. 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:58.960 Also, you can really see how this is connecting to two gay for pay drone pilots. 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:09.359 So that's you can see why it's on the brain, what's happening there, what I'm thinking about, violence and pleasure in America and technology, and technology. 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:12.559 So that's what I'm thinking about. 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:13.839 That's what I'm thinking about. 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:14.640 Light stuff. 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:16.559 Light stuff, no, it's not, it's heavy stuff. 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:17.680 I'm not gonna be glib. 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.079 So I'm taking breaks and I'm planting, and I need to see people. 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:25.920 I'm still upstate, but I'm gonna come back down to New York City in a couple weeks. 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:26.799 Are you ready? 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.039 New York, are you ready for me? 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:30.720 I guess I'm looking forward. 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:32.000 No, I'm not looking forward to that. 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:32.720 I'm not gonna lie. 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:33.680 I'm not looking forward to that. 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:35.920 I'm thinking about buying a place up here. 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.640 An inexpensive place up here. 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:45.440 So that I could come up the rest of the year more, but I don't think I could do it full time. 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:48.480 It's the people. 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.960 It's the people that I need to be back in New York for. 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:52.400 But do I? 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:53.279 I don't know. 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:54.079 I don't know. 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:55.359 We're open-ended right now. 00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:56.480 We're open-ended to the world. 00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.400 Biggest thing is just finishing this book. 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:00.640 Biggest thing is finishing this book. 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:08.720 I mean, one thing that I saw online that I was like, oh gosh, I don't want to go back. 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:13.759 Ma NYC, the hairstyling, the hairstylist place, Ma NYC. 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.079 I don't know if you've seen it or if you're aware of it. 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:23.680 It's you know, upscale gay guy, hairstylist salon not far from where I live in little Italy. 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:33.200 I recognize the guys who run it from the gym, from the Soho Equinox with Anthony, etc. 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:42.319 Just going through that Instagram of my NYC, which first of all, most of it is like shirtless gay guys. 00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:49.359 Which I I love that this is out there marketing

themselves as just like shirtless gay guy thirst traps. 00:33:49.519 --> 00:34:10.159 But they're all sort of like it's all that kind of like um gay guy or like the male pout, sort of like, oh, sort of like a mock seriousness about it, or sort of a thoughtfulness about not mock, they think it's sort of like a seriousness that they're being very like serious and tasteful, almost with thoughtful with the thirst trap. 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:16.559 You know, it's like they have to repress the eroticism of it, repress the sex about it, and just be like, oh, it's fashion, it's fashion. 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:25.199 And it's like, and of course the haircuts are all the 18 going on 38, gay guy aesthetic, where it's all just like zhuzed up supercuts. 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:32.800 You know, everybody sort of looks like they went to the mall and then just ran their hands through their hair a little bit to like muss it up. 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:34.880 Love it, love everything about it. 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:41.280 Gay guys never change, gay guys never change, never grow up, stay like this forever. 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:44.159 No, that's me being glib. 00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:44.800 I don't know. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:51.519 Um that's not making me excited to go back, but I am kind of obsessed. 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:52.960 I'm obsessed. 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.599 There's a few different things that it makes me think of. 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.119 It makes me think of Choice of Awn. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:59.039 It makes me think of Choice of Von. 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.920 We can go there first and then get back to the gay guys more generally. 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.960 Choice of Awn, you know, came up in my 2019 nostalgia. 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.400 Choice of Von just released a new song. 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:11.519 What is it? 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:18.320 It's about women and um how much he loves women, how much he admires women. 00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:19.039 Sure. 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:30.960 Troy Savon 31, in his 30s now, still giving, still giving Power Twink, very much featured on the Mott NYC website, if not literally, at least in spirit. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:34.800 You know, a supercut's haircut that's just must up mused up. 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.960 The outfits, the outfits are all glam 18-year-olds. 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:51.039 You know, every every 30-something gay guy is there just chasing some idea of what it would have been to have been hot and sexy when you were 15. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:00.400 Um not even hot and sexy, but sexually active, I guess, when you were 15, in a in a way of some power. 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:21.199 I don't know, because I think many gay guys were sexually active when they were 15, but maybe didn't feel empowered about it, and now they want to be, you know, the hot guy in gym class seems to be, seems to be the aesthetic regime right now of the downtown gay guys and the choice of on gay guys. 00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:27.360 Uh and you know, I think it's a little boring, I think it's a little underwhelming, no offense. 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:34.639 But no, in my 2019 nostalgia dump, I was I pulled up old Troy Savon albums that I actually really liked. 00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:36.639 I really enjoy the pop music. 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.960 I really enjoyed his old albums. 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:53.519 Um, I thought it was really good, and I was really listening to them until I realized that he was, you know, I think he's a white South African who his family fled fled South Africa after the end of apartheid and moved to Australia. 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:57.920 Um, and now, you know, he lives in America. 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:05.280 So he's sort of like the colonial, a colonial trifecta, lots of colonial, colonial power there. 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:11.599 So I don't know that he's like a figure that needs like valorization. 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:24.000 I think you know he's benefited from from a lot of valorizing systems in his life, no offense to him, nor, you know, it's just the way it is. 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:30.960 Um and the new music is just is is not doing it for me. 00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:35.119 And I do feel like, okay, taking it to more gay guys more generally. 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:37.679 Here's the thing. 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:38.960 Here's the thing, gay guys. 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:43.280 Here's the thing, especially in our 30s, in our 30s, and now you know of choice 31. 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:44.960 Welcome, welcome. 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:46.719 I'm about to leave my 30s. 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:54.800 Here's what I've learned, here's what I would impart, here's what I would say, here's what I would challenge the gay guys. 00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:59.519 As you leave, you know, the narcissistic 20s behind. 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:06.239 I feel like 20s, as they're conceived right now, are a time to be selfish and kind of lost and narcissistic. 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:10.800 You care about yourself, you have your fun, you sow your oats, blah, blah, blah. 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:17.599 30s is a transition into adulthood, ostensibly, for people. 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.039 The question is, what is adulthood for gay guys? 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:28.800 And this is where I feel like a lot of gay guys are getting lost is it just it comes with more money. 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:45.199 So you start, you know, buying the expensive clothes, getting, you know, a$500 haircut from my NYC, I don't know how much it costs there, and you know, buying$500 jeans that look like you know, whatever, they're ambercrombie jeans from from however long ago. 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:48.639 And you know, you live that fantasy. 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:51.199 You have the money and the resources to live that fantasy. 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.920 You get the peptides, you get the gym membership, you know, you do all that stuff. 00:38:56.400 -->

00:38:57.199 What was that? 00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:58.400 I heard a noise. 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:01.039 Um someone's trying to tell me to stop, probably. 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.320 Um and then to what end? 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:05.679 To what end is what I'm saying. 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:08.719 You do that in your 30s, fine, fine, if that's what you want to do. 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:10.239 What are you gonna do in your 40s? 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.280 What are you gonna do in your 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s? 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.960 You know, what are you gonna do for the rest of your century? 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:18.800 What are you setting up? 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:20.320 What are we setting up? 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:28.559 The thing with gay guys, you're not having kids, most of us, most of us are not having kids, most of us aren't even settling down into a long-term relationship. 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.159 We know we're flitting from this to that. 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:33.280 From the obligations, what are our obligations? 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:35.519 Kids take up so much time. 00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:40.320 Kids take up so much time and money and resources if you have them. 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:42.239 So that's what straight people are doing. 00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:43.519 You'll just speak broadly. 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:47.119 Straight people are doing the kids, and that's where their energies go. 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:57.760 So they sort of get the 30s and 40s off a bit because they have to spend it all, spend every single moment, basically, focused on the kids and raising them. 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.360 You still have to care about them in the in your 50s, 60s, whatever. 00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:06.960 But then, you know, they get their 50s, so they've raised their kids, so they can start breathing, they can retire. 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:14.880 50s, 60s become the retirement, the reward, and 70s, 80s is where they start guiding with the grandkids, the next generation. 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.480 There's much more of like a script. 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.599 This is a new revelation, but there's much more of a script for straight people. 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:27.199 I'm not saying that's great, I'm not saying that's what we should be doing, or that's somehow better, but there is something to occupy the time. 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:28.639 That's the thing to me. 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.800 Occupy the time and the resources. 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:41.119 Okay, guys, don't have anything necessarily to occupy the time and the resources, so we end up spending the time, the resources to like look like Troy Savon or whatever. 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:41.840 You know what it is? 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.119 You like we're 38 going in 18. 00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:45.920 That aesthetic. 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:50.320 We spend that time doing that, which is a waste of time, which is a waste of time. 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.760 We're not in a narcissistic 20s anymore. 00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:06.320 You need, we need to use that time to shepherd society, to shepherd the next generation in the same way that you know straight people are doing with biological children or you know, nuclear families or whatever. 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:07.519 We can still do that. 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:15.760 We can still keep shepherding society and nourishing the next generation, maybe not with biological nuclear families, but in other ways. 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.280 And I think there's a responsibility. 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:19.519 And I know that some of my gay guys out there are doing that. 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:24.719 I know that some of them are involved in political organizations, social organizations, volunteering, this, that, and the other. 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:26.559 That is great. 00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:30.000 I also know that a lot of us are not doing that, right? 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:40.079 And so we gotta start doing, I think, more of that, more of an obligation to use this time and this energy and resources not to not to go to my NYC. 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:41.679 Not to go to Mot NYC. 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:43.199 Soapbox, that's me. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:44.880 That's my soapbox. 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:46.960 That's my soapbox. 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:53.119 And here's where this is kind of going though, is like the aesthetics of that. 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.039 Gay guy aesthetics right now just seems so boring. 00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:12.800 And I've talked about this before where it's like, yeah, guys, we're supposed to be, you know, the visionaries and the artists, and challenging and subverting and and all this kind of stuff, and being the frisson, you know, the frisson, the freakish frisson of society. 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:14.880 And we're not there. 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:19.519 We're not there now at this moment in time, you know. 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.320 But we need to get back there. 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:26.960 We need to get back there, and I think that's part of what we gotta be doing with our resources. 00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:28.000 That's a way to do it. 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.280 It doesn't have to be, you know, volunteering and political and whatever. 00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:47.119 Just advancing, advancing the aesthetics of society so they stop valorizing violence and imperialism and whatever, and they can start opening up better paths. 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.320 That's what we can be doing. 00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:49.280 It can be aesthetic. 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:55.280 We can still be aesthetic little animals, as so many of us like to be, but just pushing a little further. 00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:56.960 Further, further. 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:01.679 Not the nostalgia, not the nostalgia for an 18-year-old. 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:08.000 That's what I think it needs to go further behind and keep moving forward.

00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:09.920 We gotta keep moving forward. 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:14.000 Keep moving forward? 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:19.039 I don't know what that I don't know what that means, but we gotta we just gotta be the little freakish little freaks. 00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:26.960 We gotta be these freakish little freaks and opening up opening up new possibilities, keeping keeping keeping things fresh. 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:30.159 New, potentially better. 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.159 Oh, just looking at my list. 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:36.719 There's things, okay. 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.840 So what am I what am I really speaking out against? 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.480 Interview magazine, interview magazine. 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.599 That we uh uh that's gay guy culture that's just like circling the drain. 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:49.599 Interview magazine, 30 whatever years ago, used to be fresh. 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.239 I think it used to be more new, I think there used to be more going on. 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.360 Now it's just like it's it's the it's the Jordan Firstman aesthetic. 00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.119 I there's a lot of Courtney Love comeback. 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:13.519 It's just like Lot of like this is so boring and so old and so dated and so safe and like not meeting the moment where people are so aware of like American genocide and we're gonna talk about like Courtney Love. 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:14.719 Like you you know what I mean? 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.719 Like we have to move forward. 00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:19.280 Just the interview magazine, just shut it down. 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:20.880 Defund interview magazine. 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:22.800 Abolish interview magazine. 00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:24.239 It's over. 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:25.760 That's the gay guy culture. 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.559 We just need to, we need to, we need to let it go. 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:29.760 We need to let it go. 00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:31.920 It's really not taking us further. 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:35.679 It's really not taking us further. 00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:40.800 I have a whole other thing about melodrama that I don't think I don't think fits. 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:42.000 I don't think we want to attack it on. 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:43.039 I think we've talked about enough. 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:44.960 I think we've talked about enough today. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:49.119 Gay guys, hog, gay guys. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:52.239 This is really a podcast about gay guys, isn't it? 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:54.400 That's sort of the broader theme. 00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:55.920 That's one of our themes. 00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:58.639 One of our themes in this podcast is gay guys. 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.039 One of the themes that we keep returning to. 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:08.079 One of the themes you you that's continually present in your work is the gay guy. 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.480 How how did that come about? 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:13.599 What when was what was your first interaction with the gay guy? 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:21.039 You know, the gay guy as as an archetype, as as as a character in society and social. 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:22.000 This is me. 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:31.280 This is me on a different podcast that I'll one day have where I take myself insufferably seriously and get a MacArthur Genius Award. 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:33.519 Um, no, not a MacArthur. 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:37.920 I would be getting something from the kitchen. 00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:48.159 I'd be getting a residency at the kitchen to develop three new pieces that address um my life. 00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:49.920 Yeah, that are that are about my life. 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:58.559 Three new pieces about my life, loosely, loosely based on my upbringing, on my upbringing in rural California. 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:07.679 And I use movements, I use humor, and I use sociopathy. 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:08.239 No. 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:26.159 Movement humor, and an uncanny ability to distill the phrases and gestures that encapsulate the American experience in the 21st century. 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.079 My guest today is John Milton Friedman. 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.159 No, um is Jack Baldwin Morley. 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.239 Jack, welcome. 00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:37.440 Thank you so much. 00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:39.280 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:41.599 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:53.119 I love culture and taking money from wealthy donors to produce things that sound important, but don't challenge the status quo in any way whatsoever. 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:59.280 That's my mo to make money and feel good about myself. 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:02.320 I'm an artist. 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:03.840 This is my oo. 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:04.960 This is my output. 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:06.239 Recurring themes. 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:07.679 Recurring theme in your work. 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:12.400 And then there's a sub-theme within the gay guy theme, which is the bitchy gay guy. 00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.079 Tell me more about that. 00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:18.880 Um, to be insufferable. 00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:24.480 To be insufferable in America is is is a luxury. 00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:26.320 I think this is it. 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:27.280 I think this is it. 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:28.639 I don't like this. 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:30.400 I don't like this. 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:34.320 I don't like this podcast.