บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ How Much Do Choreographers Make? Broadway, Commercials & Dance Careers

00:04:30.959 Come to the Mecca of musical theatre. 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:37.600 The home, the birthplace of musical theatre, and get really on my game and then go back to London. 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:41.680 But wait a minute, do you knew you were gonna get a job in musical theatre here? 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:46.000 No, I came, there's a studio called Broadway Dance Centre. 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:52.160 If you've ever seen the movie Centre Stage, you've seen a little slice of Broadway Dance Centre, but it's I wouldn't remember. 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.199 It's one of the top studios in the country. 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:55.680 Oh. 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:00.480 And you can come and you can do a summer program there, which is what I signed up to do. 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:01.439 Oh, okay. 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:09.360 So I spent three months training there, and I'm very fortunate in that I have dual citizenship with US and UK. 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:13.920 So I thought, oh maybe I'll just audition for a regional production of it was White Christmas. 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:23.360 So I auditioned, didn't think anything of it, flew back to England, and I was going to be dancing in Maleficent, the Disney film, as a dancer on that. 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:31.120 But while I was in England, I got a call from the US Theatre Company of White Christmas, and they said, Can you come back for a final audition? 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:38.800 So I was like, oh god, do I stay in England and do this movie, or do I just go with the wind and see what happens? 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:53.439 And I knew I booked a one-way ticket and I knew I had to be okay with the idea that I could fly back to the US, give up dancing in this movie, and still be okay if I didn't get the job. 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:55.920 So I flew back, I didn't get the job. 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:56.480 Oh no. 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:57.920 I was okay. 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:01.360 Because I felt like otherwise I always would have wondered. 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:08.079 And then I eventually did start booking work as a performer, but that very that first one did not go to plan. 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:10.639 What a story, my god. 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:11.199 Yeah. 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:16.240 Okay, so what was the trajectory of your career here in America like? 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:21.199 I was really lucky in that I got an opportunity. 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:27.519 There's an organization called the SDC Foundation, and that's the Stage Directors and Choreographers Foundations. 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:36.160 And what they do is they offer observership opportunities to early career director choreographers, or directors or choreographers. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:42.879 But I was lucky enough to work under the mentorship of Casey Nicklaw on one of these observerships. 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:48.639 So what that means is he was staging the Broadway production of Tuck Everlasting. 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:53.920 And as the observer, I was with him throughout the entire process. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:59.040 From day one of rehearsal until opening night, wherever he was, I was. 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:04.079 So what is amazing about this opportunity is that you're in the room without an agenda. 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:05.839 You don't have anything to get done. 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:11.040 So what feels daunting at the beginning is that you're just watching and you're like, surely I should be helping. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:20.000 But actually, it gave me space to see how the best in the business were running a room, how the best in the business were making a musical. 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:30.639 And as the years went on, every time I found myself in a rehearsal room or in a tech or in a put-in rehearsal, I was like, oh, I learned how to do that observing Casey Nicolaw. 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.800 So how long were you just an observer? 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:35.199 I believe it was about three months. 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.040 And they didn't pay you for that, right? 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:39.360 They do pay you because it's a foundation. 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:41.920 So my particular one was the Traub Fellowship. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:45.600 So a lady called Victoria Traub who provides that fellowship. 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:47.920 How much do they pay something like that? 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:48.959 This is what's great. 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.279 So when I did it, I earned, I think it was$2,000. 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:54.480 For the three months. 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:55.439 For the three months. 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:56.399 That's not bad. 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:57.199 Not bad. 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:01.680 But now I actually think that they offer something closer to$6,000. 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:02.480 Wow. 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:08.800 Because there's really there has to be an investment in giving early career people these opportunities. 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.519 Otherwise, the talent is not getting nurtured. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:17.120 And it's really hard when you're in a room as a director, you're not with other directors. 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:18.879 So how else could you learn? 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:19.600 Wow. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.360 So what was the first paying gig that you had? 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:29.040 My first paid job as a performer. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:34.320 It was a midsummer night's dream when I was eight years old. 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:36.080 Oh, and they paid you? 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:36.720 They did. 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:47.279 There was a fantastic professional company called Shakespeare for Kids, and they toured the country, and they needed some children to be fairies in a Midsummer Night's Dream. 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:50.960 Do you remember what they paid you then? 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:52.879 I actually can tell you. 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:56.320 It was£10 per show.

00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:00.960 And I was so proud. 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.360 I was so proud of that paycheck. 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:06.080 I always wanted to, I wanted to work like a grown-up. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.799 And this felt like that opportunity. 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:15.200 But as a once I was moving over to the other side of the table, I wanted to. 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:16.639 You mean as a choreographer? 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:17.120 Yes. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:23.679 I was an associate on the tour of Emojilan the musical, which ironically never ended up going on tour. 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:36.799 It was a post-COVID, very wild experience as so many different theatre productions experienced after COVID, but technically that was my first one on the other side of the table. 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.120 A tour that never happened. 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:47.759 I want to stay on the performance side for a second because I want to know, and also maybe as a choreographer, how much do you have to work out every week? 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:49.039 How do you keep in shape? 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.279 That's a very physically demanding job. 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:56.000 There's a really wise saying that you have to be stronger than the show that you're in. 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:01.440 So when I'm performing, I'm training six days a week. 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:06.799 That might be pilates, that might be ballet class, that might be strength training in the gym. 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:08.320 How many hours each day? 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.559 Anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and 15. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:18.799 If you're on some sort of physio journey at the moment and you've got injuries that you're working on, that can really add the time on as well. 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:34.480 But it's actually, I find as a choreographer, it's just as important to be keeping on my fitness because when you're choreographing, you might sit down for an hour and a half in the room and then you're jumping up and trying to demonstrate something or trying to create something. 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:40.559 And it's actually the going from sitting to standing and moving that has been more challenging for me choreographically. 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:42.159 It's the unpredictability. 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:42.799 Wow. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:47.039 You mentioned injuries, it's also very injury-prone profession. 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:47.679 Yeah. 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:49.200 So what happens? 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:50.639 You twist your ankle. 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:51.360 You can work. 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:52.159 You can't, yeah. 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.519 You could work as choreographer, but you can perform. 00:10:55.679 --> 00:11:00.720 And if you need to actually demonstrate to the dancers what to do, you cannot do it. 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:01.519 What do you do? 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:11.759 Choreographically, a skill that I've had to really work on is my vocabulary when I'm finding movement that I want to create in a room. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:20.799 And frankly, there could be times, even if I'm not injured, I have a handful of incredible dances that I try to bring onto any project I can. 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:32.000 It's not always possible, but I have a handful of dances, and some of them do what I'm ideating in my head better than I can show it in my body. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:38.720 So it cut becomes about saying, okay, now can you contract your abdominals and scoop your back a bit more? 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:40.639 Now can you get lower into your plie? 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:46.639 Now can you just raise your eyeline by one centimeter and you find the shapes together? 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.919 And I have had to get better at using my language. 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.759 And of course, if I'm injured, that becomes even more critical. 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:55.759 You said you love to do theatre. 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:56.720 Who hires you? 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:57.600 The producers? 00:11:57.759 --> 00:11:58.559 It depends. 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:05.440 The order of sort of hiring would be producer to director, and then the director is the person who reaches out to the choreographer. 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.440 Okay, so why I'm asking because they come to you with a concept, right? 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.000 They don't really know anything about the dance. 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:12.399 Yeah. 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.120 Then you go home and so take me from there. 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:16.240 How long does it take you? 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:17.600 You draw it on paper? 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:19.679 Do you draw just dance movement? 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:20.639 How does it work? 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:21.360 What do you do? 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:22.960 You know, obviously read the story. 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:25.360 Yes, read the script. 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:32.639 I find myself to be very dramaturgically driven when I'm creating movement. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.000 I'm thinking of one specific play that I'm working on at the moment. 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:50.240 So the director approaches me with the script, I read through the script, and then we would have a conversation about both the director's larger concept for the piece and what my immediate feelings are about movement. 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:57.039 And what I like to do is go through a script and just write down any visual ideas that come to me. 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:09.279 Because a lot of the time, my experience of directors or the directors I tend to work with, they live in this really beautiful, psychologically driven place that's about what does the character want? 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:10.559 Why are they doing this? 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:11.360 Who are they? 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.759 And it and the cat the relationship between the characters is what is driving them.

00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.279 I'm coming at it from the much more visual point of view. 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.279 How does this sweep across the stage? 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.360 How does it connect to the next scene? 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:28.879 What is the image that the audience might see at the beginning that they're then seeing at the end in their movement? 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:33.600 And so I go through and I make visual patterns throughout the script. 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:40.399 From there, it really has to be about what is motivating a character that helps me go into the more specific. 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.919 So usually how long does it take you to design a dance? 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:45.600 Okay, so as long as they give me. 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:50.960 So for example, I worked with this incredible company this year called Woman in Motion. 00:13:51.120 --> 00:14:00.320 They're a dance company, and they approached me very early that I had months before I was in a room with any dancers. 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:04.799 And I took months to think about what story do I want to tell? 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:06.879 What is the friction in this? 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.840 What is the breath in this? 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:14.159 What are the moments, what do I want the audience to leave asking or feeling? 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:20.320 And I went through so many iterations of what it might be before I was even in the room with the dancers. 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.440 Then once I was in the room with the dancers, it was actually quite limited. 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.399 I think I had about eight to ten hours. 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:45.200 But on the contrary, there could also be a time when, and I've had this happen, you're in a tech rehearsal, there's a moment that is not working on stage, and the director says, I think we need something there, and you walk up to actors and you don't know what you're gonna do, and the dancers are looking at you and you're looking at them, and you don't know what's gonna happen. 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:52.639 Then you say, I have an idea, and then you just do something and you make it, and that's how long it took. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:00.799 So being a dancer versus a choreographer versus a movement director, what pays the best? 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.120 For my experience, choreographing pays better than performing. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.919 What a beginner in an established one, and what uh what is the top? 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:21.840 Yeah, so for beginning salary for a choreographer, and what my beginning salary was is zero because you gotta start making your own work somewhere. 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:23.840 You gotta have something to show. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:24.960 So zero. 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:35.679 Day rates-wise, in developing work, you could be looking at anything from 200 to$600 associate work on Broadway. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Around starting salary could be around$2,000 a week, but then moving up to anything to$3,000,$3,000. 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:49.919 Project-wise, it's different because regionally it tends to be more project-based. 00:15:50.080 --> 00:16:07.360 If you're choreographing a regional musical, it really depends on the size of the house, but anywhere from$4,000 to$11,000 in my experience, but it all varies and it can also be dependent on if it is a union contract or not a union contract. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:08.799 Are you part of a union? 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:09.519 I am, yes. 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.399 You are not allowed to take jobs that are not union, right? 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:13.519 That's correct, yeah. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:18.799 So that really dumps your situation here because a lot of jobs I bet you are not union. 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:21.919 I actually haven't stumbled across that yet. 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:22.559 Good. 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:28.080 The union seems to be really good at finding a way to have a contract for most things. 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:32.240 The place that they don't have contracts is in assistant work. 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.399 So you have your choreographer at the top, then you have an associate. 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:43.600 Those are both SDC union jobs, then assistants, they really haven't found a way to get them covered on the union yet. 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:50.559 I read that you worked on some commercial campaign for NFL and for Samsung. 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.480 How is it first of all, it must be completely different kind of work, right? 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:55.279 Very different. 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:56.399 Different kind of dance. 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:02.159 So you have to be versed in hip-hop dance and modern dance and ballet and all of this, right? 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:02.799 Yes. 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.079 What did you study? 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.240 What kind of dance did you study? 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:19.279 I went to a college just outside of London called Performers College, and they were mostly actually known for training commercial dancers and musical theatre performers. 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:19.599 Okay. 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:31.759 So within that three-year training program, I had commercial hip-hop, I had tap, I had a little bit of contemporary, I had modern dance, I had ballet, and I had musical theatre. 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.680 So they really did verse you in all styles. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.599 Which we used to talk about as being a little bit of a blessing and a curse. 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.359 Is it best to be a jack of all trades, or is it best to really excel at one thing? 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:45.279 But so what is the difference? 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.200 First of all, I bet you that commercial pays a lot more than theatre, right? 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:50.000 It does. 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:51.759 Yeah, it's funny that, isn't it? 00:17:52.480 -->

00:17:53.119 TV. 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:54.319 Brands. 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:56.880 How did you get gigs like that? 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:01.039 I was very lucky, lucky and hardworking, right? 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.359 It's when those two things meet. 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:15.200 I worked on the Broadway production of Merrily, we roll along, the production company that filmed the movie, one of the producers a few months later got in touch and said, Hey, we're doing this Samsung commercial. 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.599 Can you come and be movement director? 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:18.799 I said yes. 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.400 And the pay was like three times the amount then of theatre? 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:36.880 Yeah, so I've done a f quite a few commercials now, and from my experience, the starting rate could be around 900 a day, anything up to 2500 a day. 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:38.160 Wow, that's great. 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:38.799 Yeah. 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.519 Do they give you a concept of what they want? 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:43.440 Well, what's the set of the dance? 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.359 What do they give you for you to go home and start thinking about the dance? 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:51.519 Yeah, you get a really incredible look book. 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:53.039 I think that's the word. 00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:04.480 It breaks down image by image exactly what every second of the commercial is gonna be and exactly how they want the movement to feel and what they want it to look like. 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:11.839 What you don't know is how prepared the star is gonna come in, so you really have to prepare for all eventualities. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.920 And I've been very lucky with all the stars that I've worked with, they've just been amazing. 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.200 Like who, for example? 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.200 The Samsung commercial was Jaden Smith, and he was just fantastic. 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:22.799 And then in theatre, a few others. 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:23.839 Yeah, big names. 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:24.400 Yeah. 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:25.519 Theatre names, yeah. 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:29.680 Hardworking people, very hardworking people, the theatre people. 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:30.319 Yes. 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:30.960 I know. 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.799 And what was the NFL like? 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:33.839 That was very fun. 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:45.680 That was the opposite of the Samsung because they had taken real fans of many different football teams, and they were the people that were featured in the commercials. 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:55.039 So instead of working with one star, I was working with probably over a hundred people in a short space of time and getting them to do movements that they were comfortable with. 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.200 They might never have been in front of a camera before, and just guiding them. 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.519 I did a lot of actually theatre warm-ups with them. 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.119 But that wasn't just the movement director, they didn't have to dance, right? 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.200 They did have to groove. 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:07.920 Okay. 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.759 They had to groove, they had specific movements they had to do. 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.720 It was showing off very specific pieces of clothing. 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.559 So they had to dance with the clothing. 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:17.680 Interesting. 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.720 At the end of the day, do you own the dance? 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.839 Can somebody copy that dance in another performance? 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.319 Or who owns the dance and who owns the Who owns the rights? 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.000 The rights to it, yeah. 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.160 It's really project by project. 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:40.960 If if I'm working for a producer, generally they're gonna give me a contract. 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:47.599 If it's not my own piece that I'm originating, they're gonna give me a contract that says they own all the rights, and I'm signing that away. 00:20:47.920 --> 00:21:03.359 What I do now put into all of my contracts that are of that nature is an AI clause, which says you can have the work, but you cannot feed it into any AI engines to generate more work or more ideas. 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:04.400 Those are my ideas. 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.720 That brings me to the question that I have. 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.680 Do you use AI in designing the dance? 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.079 No, I don't. 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:29.839 No, I just don't believe that anything that AI tells me is going to be better at my work than me that has been living and breathing and experiencing life for as many years as I have. 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.720 But I'm sure there are some choreographers that are using it. 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:38.000 I'm sure, and you know what? 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.759 Some of them are probably doing it really well, but it's just not for me. 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:43.759 I still write with pen and paper. 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:49.119 So, what is the biggest challenge in your profession? 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.359 The biggest challenge in my profession. 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:59.039 I went into it because I love working with people and I love creating moments with human beings in a room. 00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.680 And what I know. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:12.319 Never understood was that actually a lot of what I do is work alone and spend so much time creating stuff by myself so that I can be prepared for the moment when I am in the room with them. 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:20.640 But a lot of the time because of budgets, the amount of time that you have actually creating with the people in the room is half of what you want it to be. 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:21.359 Really? 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:21.920 Yeah. 00:22:22.160 -->

00:22:26.319 Another thing from the more business side of thing I would say is the negotiations. 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.079 To know how to price yourself. 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:44.400 It's that I have an incredible agent that I work with, but it's really difficult because sometimes you walk into a building and you're worth what you feel you're worth, and then the next day you walk into a building as the same person, but you're barely making a livable salary. 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.680 And that difference is really it's really difficult to manage. 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:48.640 I can imagine. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:51.119 And what would you say is the biggest reward? 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.839 Connecting audiences with parts of themselves that they didn't know were there. 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:56.640 Oh really? 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.079 And you can see it in a performance so that you actually connected? 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:01.200 You can feel it. 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:08.079 From the audience point of view, when they're watching something you've created, everybody together finds stillness. 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:10.559 Or everybody together breathes out. 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:17.039 Those moments connecting humans to themselves and to each other mean everything to me. 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:18.240 And it happens. 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.599 I saw the dance Lazarus by Elvin Ailey. 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:27.519 The whole audience, me included, when they finished the dance, we jumped on our feet. 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.720 I think that is the best dance I've ever seen in my life, and I always look to see when they perform it. 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:33.759 I want to see it again. 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.200 It was so amazing. 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:38.400 And do you know what it was about that movie? 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:54.160 The energy of the dance, the variety of things that they did with that energy, but the energy, the sink that everybody was in, the music, it was everything all-encompassing that really moved every single person in the theatre. 00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:02.079 Wow, yeah, and it's that collective energy that is so rare to experience now because society is fractured. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.920 So there's fewer and fewer spaces to fill that collective togetherness. 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:07.279 You're absolutely right. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.559 I didn't even think about it. 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:15.359 Let me ask you, what is your favorite dance of all times that you saw maybe wished you were in it? 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:21.599 I can definitely say my favourite dance, and maybe I would wish I could be a part of it, but I would never be a good enough dancer. 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:28.720 Is there was a piece called Message in a Bottle that I saw at New York City Centre and it featured music by Sting. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:38.160 And similarly to what you're saying, the energy of the dancers as they

were moving across the stage just had me spellbound. 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.079 It was mesmerizing. 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.920 And is there a specific dance group you wish you were part of? 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:46.319 I want to start my own company eventually. 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:47.920 Oh, tell me about it. 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:49.839 I what would it take? 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:50.960 Money. 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.119 Collaborating with the right producers would be a better way to put that. 00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:58.240 Finding the right team. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:24:59.759 How do you get your jobs now? 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:02.079 A lot of the time now it's referrals. 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:02.960 Referrals. 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:03.359 Yeah. 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:10.160 So when you say you're gonna have your own company, that actually will be you will be an established choreography company. 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.759 And choreography, I am having a hard time saying this word. 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:14.720 Oh, it's okay. 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:15.519 My husband. 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:25.359 So many people in my family still can't say the word, which I love because you can never take yourself too seriously if your job title is one that people struggle to say. 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.839 I even have a friend who told me how to pronounce it. 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:31.119 Choreography. 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:31.359 Okay. 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:32.480 You're nailing it. 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.920 It's perfect. 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.720 Okay, so what will your company be? 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:38.240 Will it be a dance company? 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.599 Will it be a theatre? 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:40.480 A dance theater? 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:41.279 What will it be? 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:42.640 Theatre company. 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:47.680 But it would definitely be heavily focused on dance as a means of storytelling. 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:53.200 I'm really interested in dance theatre narratives. 00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:04.400 Something that I find myself doing as a means of accessing a project is interviewing people, taking inspiration from those interviews, and building dance around what I've heard from them. 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.160 And that's how two of my major projects have started. 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:08.880 Wow. 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:09.440 Yeah. 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:11.119 And they're in development now? 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:11.680 Yes. 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:12.160 Yeah. 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:13.119 That's fantastic. 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:14.480 So what happens? 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:16.559 You don't get paid during development. 00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:18.160 How do you make a living? 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.200 Side jobs are crucial to surviving in the industry. 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:40.480 For many years I was personal training on the side, and now I've been fortunate in that the last two years I haven't needed to do that, but I will say up until then I would finish a contract and the next day I would be back personal training. 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:41.839 I would not take breaks. 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:46.960 So you stayed within the realm of physical training, dancing, and all of that? 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:52.720 You have to have a side job that you can enjoy, I think, if you want to last in this business. 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:56.000 There is a limit age limit on this profession. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:58.400 Anything physical has an age limit. 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:04.240 Did you start ever thinking about what you're gonna do when you will be old and won't be able to do it? 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:10.559 I think I went through a big transformation when I had my daughter, who is now nearly five. 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:16.720 And I think what that taught me is that it's about continuing to transform with the body that you have at the time. 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:20.400 So as you lose something, you gain something. 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:26.720 As you shift one way, you find another part of yourself that still can access storytelling. 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.599 Because really, I just love telling stories. 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:32.480 Through dance, through dancing movement. 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:35.200 Thank you so much. 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:36.400 Thank you. 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.039 That's it for today. 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:45.680 For more interviews with people with different careers in different jobs in many different industries. 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.160 Go to how much can I make that info. 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.640 You'll find lots of information there. 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:52.880 And I will see you next week.