บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Dr Tom Kelly

very fortunate incrementally to see the numbers shift from large numbers of students to even larger numbers. of employees and to be comfortable with it. to find out it was a a strength, a skill set I could generalize from students to adults and thread the needle thoughtfully and purposely. speaker-0: Do think there's something that school leaders sometimes misunderstand about the job of being ahead of school? speaker-1: I I I think it's, you know, I'm not sure it's up and coming school leaders who miss it. I think it's the training programs that support school leaders that miss who miss it. I think we drop the ball in terms of nurturing and mentoring future school leaders and not allowing them to have the experiences, the thought of terminating an employee older than you, the reality of not having benefits, the reality of impacting a family and not a person. the bounce back and collateral damage, we call it splatter of what happens after that teacher leaves the room and walks back in the department, a division or a grade level. I I don't see those opportunities for thoughtful dialogue and reflection. I certainly don't see a Socratic moment where there's that deep tissue connection with the material and the free flowing sharing of ideas and experiences. And I I worry sometimes For what the next generation is gonna be really prepared to do. And right now, the adult influence in the United States on education is at an all-time high. It's in our classrooms. It's with every employee we hire and every parent we invite to join the community. Managing adults, adults is a large part of what I do. speaker-0: I'm going to take you back to pre-Dr. Tom when you were just undergraduate college Tom. And there's this amazing story about you, which is well known by some, but probably not by most of our leaders, which is that you spent some of your senior year in college deliberately experiencing homelessness. I'd love you to tell us a very sneaky summary story of that and tell us what the impact of that was in real terms on your understanding of privilege when you've now risen to a position running a school as... as exclusive as yours in some ways. speaker-1: The Cliff Nose version, I was in a car accident. I missed a portion of my four years in school. So I had just about a a semester left at the end. I was intent of taking just art and theology courses to round out my minor concentrations. I was a psych major and the dean wouldn't have it and said, Tom, why don't you pick something more of like a thesis? and I floated two ideas. one of them was to live As a homeless person in Bridgeport, Connecticut, and really experience both the service side of it. I started on a service side and then literally cross over a counter and get online and then use that environment to ask questions. I never lied. Everyone knew I was a graduate student admitted to Columbia. Everyone knew I was doing research. In the community, it translated I was mentally ill. And they would call me

the professor. That they didn't believe what I was telling was in fact a reality. So I entered the community, readily accepted as somebody who's here because they're ill. When in reality, at the end of my stay, I came back with my beard shaved, my hair cut, dressed more traditionally, and the light went on that why would anyone ever do this? And then the next part of the process began explaining to people I had befriended. And who had cared for me, why I did what I did, without malice and hopefully to shed light on something that's a very real virus running through our nation. speaker-0: And what's that done for your, I suppose, your approach as a school leader all these years later? Is there a tangible outcome from that experience that you feel every day and what you do now? speaker-1: Yeah, I I I came out of it just determined to waste no more time on hate. That it is not a constructive emotion, be it growth oriented or from a resolution point of view, it's a dead end. And I saw hate in a way that just was unacceptable, regardless of religious or cultural beliefs, just from a humanity point of view. That if there is a God, God didn't intend in that emotion to govern our decision making. And it does. And I had one or two moments where I was treated as beyond less than, one by someone in a position of authority, and frequently by just passer buyers when I had said nothing and done nothing. And I had a powerful moment where the leader of the group that took me in, I traveled in a sort of tribe of 40. That ranged from a mom with a three year old to an accountant who had lost his job dur because of drug addiction. And I apologized to someone who was offended with my presence. And he turned around and said, Don't ever apologize for being homeless. You didn't ask to be here. You didn't ask to be cared for this way. You're not bothering anyone. And in that moment, it was really a wake up call and it was hate. And I have never looked back. I don't want to be a part of it. I believe everyone's put on earth to do something. Something for themselves and mankind. If they're not, then they haven't been supported. They haven't been heard. They haven't been appreciated. maybe they haven't been seen. hence I'm a huge fan of the mattering research and and kids and adults matter and have purpose and feel welcomed. And I get to be in communities where that's my job. speaker-0: So cool. had Jenny Wallace on this podcast recently talking about mastering. There we go. we're tying all the strands together. Horace Mann has this amazing phrase about living a great and giving life. And I know it's part of the DNA there. But what I want to ask is a really specific question, which is how do know for sure that the school is achieving that? How do you measure that great and giving life that you set out to create? speaker-1: Because we're nursery through 12, which is a little atypical for a top-tier school, most would prefer to do nine through twelve. We look for actual data

points with assessments that occur naturally. We run one of the largest service learning programs probably on the East Coast through our Center for Community Values and Actions. And we put our kids in close proximal contact with other partners, both resource rich and resource lacking. And we look for actual evidence of thoughtful change in partnership. Not Horus Man School in all its glory, stepping in and cleaning up an area or planting a community garden, but a community garden identified here in the Bronx where we side, led by one of our Bronx kids, and in partnership, making it happen with Work Wealth and Wisdom, where no one of the W's dominated. And we talk about that all of the time. It's of no surprise. Our service learning initiatives, our most well subscribed co-curricular and summer activity. And we're proud of that. We talk about the sense of service beyond oneself, even in your classroom. Getting up on a bus, I had a fifth grader the other day get off a bus and say to me, I'm gonna lose a friend today. And, you know, my job is to say why in a very Socratic sort of, you know, Conte and get in there, what's going on? And he said, I I can't ignore it anymore. He said, Doc, he's riding a kid. And he said, I'm gonna go in and tell the division head. He said, and I've tried to ask him to stop. And you know what? I told him you're not gonna lose a friend. In the moment, there's gonna be some tension, but in the end, he's gonna be grateful. He's gonna be grateful that you said to him, Don't do that. The only thing you own at the end of the day, I tell the kids is your name. And you have to curate that when you're not in the room. And That's what our notion of service is about. speaker-0: Tom, so many of your words are super timely and relevant to some of the English or UK based audience we have because the old word of outreach in the independent school landscape of stepping into your community is long gone and this movement around partnership is such a deep part of the kind of service leadership DNA in schools. And I think you've been a real leader on that. I know that you even changed the school's address from Riverdale to being in the Bronx and like these symbolic things that are important to you in the community that you serve. I want to go, I guess, closer to the parents and the kind of student demographic and everything and like the kids you're working with, the parents you're working with. Let's face it, parents are really ambitious and they can be anxious. And New York is a heightened environment for that. People are climbing over one another to get into Horace Mann and their kids are anxious and ambitious sometimes in similar or even worse ways. How do you moderate ambition? in a culture like yours to support wellbeing as well. How do you bring those two things together? speaker-1: It's keep it developmentally appropriate. At open houses, I often talk to prospective nursery division parents that I can get up here and wax poetically about our high school accomplishments and why. The world's gonna be dramatically different by the time you get there. You have no idea who your kids are gonna be five, six, seven years out and what their interests are gonna be. Let's let them find them, let's let them curate them, let's let them make mistakes and and have the success of owning a mistake and moving forward. and then curating a curricular experience that encourages includes co-curriculars that exposes kids to the best of what life has. And some of it is the ability to step in in a horrible situation and do well to do good without pre-professionalizing too early. we're not a school that pushes professions even in the high school, but we certainly have kids moving towards senior year who have an idea of where they want to contribute. To the world around them. And I think you have to stay the course. AI is is a gift. It's gonna help us in lots of fields. It's for the first time in a century, allowing teachers to stand up and clearly define who we are and what we do, but it also points exactly to what you're talking about, that desire to all of a sudden have a second grader pitch Alibaba on a project. Like I I'm not I'm not sure I'd like to see them play cooperatively with dupots. duplos or or get up and and and share a poem with the class. That'll be far more impactful later on. speaker-0: with the way AI is shaping and disrupting everything that we can expect from the adult life waiting for these kids and the importance and relevance of human skills, I want to ask you bit about mentorship and your perspectives on mentors and the roles of that impartial other to scope and catalyze progress for someone. How do you see that? speaker-1: I think that's the greatest gift we can give ourselves as adults right through the gentrology years of always having somebody there to teach you how to be your better self. But since I have the privilege to run an N through 12 school, it's the kids in the role of mentor. It's the kids' ability to step back and watch older kids handle an activity and to say, I'd like to handle, model it, use those skills next time is around. I have time I saw those in play. And an older student with the comfort to step in to say, hey, to ask the right question to reframe the conversation. But I'm a huge fan of mentoring. In fact, I I'm hoping we build our first building that will allow N through 12 conversations and instruction to go on simultaneously in the building where teachers can be teaching kids, but kids can also be teaching kids across the divisions. Right now we're siloed off, and that's very hard to do. speaker-0: So cool. Gives me goosebumps thinking about it. Maybe I'll be putting in a project proposal to you any day. We'll see. That's cool. I've got to ask you about your ethics class. It's famous. You said to me that office behind you that I'm looking at on your screen, you said you pack 30 kids in there every day pretty much for an ethics class. speaker-1:

twenty five this year. speaker-0: 25. It's busy. And apparently it's the most popular class at Horace Miami ethics class with Dr. Kelly. So what ethical question do today's kids most urgently need to confront in your mind eye? speaker-1: I'm I'm I'm I'm not sure I'm proud of it. and I get to work with some really cool kids with really well-defined intellectual and academic skills and a and a hunger and a desire for life, but it's as simple as why. I I think they wake up every day with the world in their face through social media in a we in a way we never experienced, and they honestly can't they just can't reconcile what they hear and see with what they're being taught. you can turn on a political exchange in a formal way, nation to nation, and see behaviors that would get you yanked out of resource recess in first grade. That just would not be acceptable. common courtesies don't exist, biting sense of humor that is undeniably divisive and destructive and hurtful with an aftertaste. And I'm proud of the kids today and their comfort with challenging human decency or a lack thereof, or challenging We have inalienable rights, but do we really w where do we see life, liberty? Where do we see the pursuit of happiness when I turn on the TV or read the newspaper and see an always us versus them mentality when we're over 90% similar genetically? And I'm thrilled this generation's challenging some basic whys. Why isn't there school for everyone that's well done? Why isn't there potable water? Why isn't there healthcare? Why is housing Such a problem. And I I think we need a new generation taking us back to basics. Really back to basics, including treating each other respectfully, even if we disagree. well beyond speaking truth to power, which can have sort of an adversarial opponent, but sort of like what Kant used to say: you can disagree but obey because you need the system to keep you together, but you should speak up. And I I'm I'm very proud of that. This year's ethics class has challenged everything from the ring of gaiges and ethical behavior is not done willfully to locks, lock room experiment. Are you really free if you don't know the door's locked? on a very visceral level. And I'm excited to have those conversations. speaker-0: Love that. An advocate for disagreeing agreeably. I want to get you very briefly onto colleges and the kind of the rat race for college places. It's a big part of the rationale behind parents backing a great school like Horace Mann as they want to see that end outcome. How do you stop the college process becoming the curriculum? speaker-1: buyer beware, we don't admit every child with the intent that they're going to get A's or they're even prepared to get A's. you will see a range of schools at Horstman, and we're equally as proud as all of them because it's where that student belongs for the next great step up in their lives. so they will see a range of schools at HM. We're proud of that. We take kids across zip codes.

cross resources and not everyone has had lab sciences come ninth grade. Not everyone has had a chance to read and write in fifth grade like some other kids do. We level, we balance, we aggressively move forward, and then we keep it real. There are a lot of great schools out there. And I I'm thrilled to be, we're a top tier school. First thing I say when you interview is you have to go visit Field Center Riverdale to my left and right. They're great schools too. Do not get caught up in the brass rig. It's what you do with school. Give me the worst high school in New York City. There's somebody going Ivy. And that's a kid in the family that had the right attitude, a Victor Franco moment. I control, I can control that attitude. I can make it work. and we celebrate every admit as if it is Oxford or Harvard or Cambridge or Stanford, because it's where they belong and it's where they're going to do. Well, next, then it's where they're welcomed. But it's a it's a twenty-four hour job and we've invested heavily at having very small college counseling sizes ratios so that our parents and kids can really have a dialogue about the process, not just count, admits, denies, defers. speaker-0: Lovely. 20 years have passed since you took this seat, you took this role. Before I get you onto some quicker questions, one final one which is have you changed your mind about something? What's changed over those 20 years? speaker-1: I I have never had such an excited sense of the future as I've had here. Every year, I believe even more that if we invest thoughtfully, carefully, and purposely in the kids and the parents, there's a lot for this world to look forward to. and yes, you can see the incremental change if you read a book like Factfulness. But we tend not to see that change on social media, but it is there and we are getting better. And in these horrible, hurtful moments, there are real cool examples of someone or something or some group doing it well. And I I just hope we don't lose hope. I made the decision to come here so that I could have a group of kids who when they spoke were listened to. When they were in a room, they mattered and they had something to offer. And I think that's a very powerful change agent moving forward. I think these kids have a lot to teach these adults. And I think schools have a lot to teach parents too. I know it's not our charge, but in partnership we're supposed to be doing this. let's go. Let's go. And I've I've never been so hopeful for the future that I am now. And I think I'm gonna be that way until I die. As long as I can hear the sounds and see the sights of schools, I'm gonna be just fine. speaker-0: Lovely. Thank you, Tom. We have a minute or so to whip through my favorite part of our interview here, the school bell. So first and foremost, who is or was your mentor? speaker-1: My father, hands down, he's passed on, but he was a huge believer in making sure we understand privilege at an early age, and not as a bad thing, but as an entitlement that's not accessible to everybody. So it's not always gonna be accessible to you. He loved to say no to things. Baseball mana, bicycle, he loved to just say no. speaker-0: best book you've ever read. speaker-1: Victor Frankel's man in search of meeting, hands down. speaker-0: Love that. What would you be doing if you weren't in education? speaker-1: I'm where I supposed to be. speaker-0: I love that. I've actually not had that answer before. I usually have someone saying I'd be a footballer or no other career ever just got the got the air turning a little. speaker-1: If I if I had another career I was thinking about, I feel like I was cheating on my community. And and kind of one foot out the door. I'm I'm where I'm supposed to be and I've been here since I was seven. I'm I'm where I'm supposed to be. speaker-0: Love that. What's one thing every school should implement tomorrow? speaker-1: Stop telling kids they're anxious. And I'm not saying they're not, but there's a self-fulfilling side of that. And we forget biologically being anxious is sometimes a good thing. it's sometimes a reminder to slow down, to think about, or to flee. and I would like us to continue to take it on from an empirical point of view, but I don't think we should be expecting kids to come in and everything is because they're anxious. speaker-0: You are going to agree with our other guests of Heads and Tails Live in New York in November, James Dahl from Wellington, who I think had a similar fear about over diagnosing a little bit and helping to normalize the fact that young people have good and bad days and we all get stressed about stuff and that's going to be the fabric of life for a long speaker-1: Reminding our eighth graders every once in a while you're in the nurse's office anxious because you didn't prepare for your history test. It's okay, just say that. speaker-0: And last and not least at all, what would you tell your 16 year old self? speaker-1: ethical behavior doesn't come willfully. I mentioned it earlier that it really does need to be taught. it really does need to be shaped and fed and supported. And don't treat people differently who aren't there yet in a moment, or in terms of a global philosophy, that that kind of behavior takes time and and and takes a group. it's I don't think it's something we can do in isolation. I just don't I don't want to see the cancel culture because someone hasn't gotten there yet. speaker-0: Tom, we've covered a lot in 23 minutes. You have been true to your word. You have been pithy, a lot pithier than the two hours I spent at that desk in your office. It's been a total joy to speak to you. Your words of wisdom and experience will be a real source of joy and interest to a lot of educators and parents alike, I'm sure, and I'm very grateful for you sharing your time. Thank you. speaker-1: Thank you, Henry. You're an impressive impressive individual too in a in a value added to education. speaker-0: I'll take that to my grave. See you in November. Thank you, speaker-1: Cheers.