บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ When did representation become a threat to masculinity? | Jamaal Burkmar

speaker-2: has nothing interesting to say. It's so tropey. It's so boring. It's so uninteresting. It is laughable. Like some of it is laughable. And it's like I just most of these people who say this, like I think Ben Shapiro was like a failed screenwriter. I don't know. Some of these guys, like the guy who Andrew Breitbart was like around at different Hollywood parties. All of these dudes who are making a lot of this noise are all failed. Failed at the craft that they pretend to love. There's a guy called The Critical Drinker. yeah, yeah. Do you know him? He's a nightmare. He made his own movie and everyone had to be like, dude, what the f what is this? Who let you make it awful? And I if one of them came out and was brilliant. And then started to say things about media, I'd be like, god, they're they're pretty talented. They know what they're talking about. None of these people are talented. So I'm just it's it's j it's very, you know, not to say, but you know, it's very Hitler was turned away from art school. So he he went a different direction. And it's just a bit like, can we all just get better at being rejected? Yeah. speaker-0: Hundred percent. speaker-2: I've had rejections. I was a I w you know, I've had many rejections. Mm mm I grew up with dancers. We were all getting rejected from auditions all the time. Anyway. Just like crazy. You didn't realize It's like you weren't as good as you thought you were this time. Get back in the studio. speaker-1: Yeah, do it again. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Always where like, well, the mainstream audience or you lefties don't like it because you're offended. It's like, No, it's just shit. You haven't made me laugh, you haven't made me think, you speaker-1: Now. speaker-2: It's the what's Billy Piper's ex's name? speaker-0: Lauren speaker-2: I've seen that man. I saw that man. No in a play. Like I saw him do I saw him sing. speaker-0: What's speaker-2: Lawrence Fox. Yeah. He's horr he's horrendous. He's he's making music and he's singing these awful songs. And I'm just like, it's I can't I can't get through the layer of your delusion that tells you that you were rejected because of XYZ. You just you just weren't good enough. And it must it must suck for him that Billy Piper's in everything and it's co she's in the new Andrew Scott Elsinore movie and she's great. Yeah. And people adore her. And it's like, okay, cool, you just suck at this thing. Yeah. Your partner's great at it. Process that, my guy. They're like, yeah, anyway. So rejection is a hell of a drug for these people. So there, speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. speaker-2: there you go. That those are all my winges. speaker-1: That's what was winding you up. Those are good ones. What about you, Natasha? speaker-2: For about twenty years Those would never not people are always like, How do you do this? Aren't you tired? I'm like, No, I'm always annoyed. Yeah. I'm always frustrated. speaker-1: always say this and we're always like, we can, speaker-2: I can

do this. speaker-1: I this is not going to be you all winding up. speaker-0: No, that this just made me think of why. speaker-1: So it's okay good. I was gonna say we obviously do this on each episode and every time we get to writing it we're like what's been winding us up and I said to Natasha I'm always waiting but come to think of it when someone says what's been winding you up I can't think of a single thing and I'm there's so many things so when it happens I'm gonna have to start writing it down. speaker-2: Mark Ruffalo in Avengers, I'm always angry. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I was like, which thing would you like me to start with? speaker-2: Also do so do you do what what do you offer your speaker-1: Yeah, you go Natasha, what's been winding you up? speaker-0: you made me think of one. So I'm big into film and TV and also like to play video games as well. often video game protagonists, like you know, you've got Last of Us, Uncharted, all of this. They're all male characters. Doesn't bother me. Great stories. I get sucked in. Then you get new speaker-2: God of War Yes Yes New It's not even come out. It's not even come out. We don't even know if it's bad or good. speaker-0: It will be good. It's it's the new God of War Trilogy, it will be good. Basically speaker-1: Yep, I know nothing about it. I'm like, mm-hmm. speaker-2: No, not playing in James Bond. speaker-1: No. speaker-0: So God of Boy is a video game series and then they rebooted it over the last few years and it's a very emotional, story-driven, fantastic video game series. And the latest one that they well, next one they'll be putting out has a female protagonist who is the wife of the previous protagonist. And people are going crazy. It's woke, it's crap. I won't play it. Who is this for? Women are ruining video games because they focused on one woman who's actually been doing it since the start, by the way. She's been so speaker-2: She's not hot enough? speaker-0: Yeah, she's not gorgeous enough. Even though she can't make up their minds right. Okay. Because she's like Nordic and blonde and white, which is, all of the you've taken the all speaker-1: Society says yeah speaker-0: you know, so but she's not good looking enough. So apparently you have to be a really hot character for speaker-1: And it's annoying. For it speaker-2: The actress that does play her is gorgeous. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? None of you have a chance with this. speaker-1: And that's it, there's the rejection thing coming in again. speaker-0: You could speak to these people and they will tell you something like Brianna's got too big of a phone speaker-2: my god. I'll see things all the time like, who are we talking speaker-1: Yeah, as if Rihanna's coming. speaker-2: about? We're talking about Zendet, we're talking about Zoe Kravitz. What are we talking speaker-0: The amount of times I've seen I'm lying, and Zindy is actually so ugly and I'm like, You are insane. speaker-2: Like she's And

they never have their profile picture speaker-1: Now of course speaker-0: Or it's another name. speaker-2: in Pways an anime. It is al I speaker-0: And don't get me wrong 'cause I like anime. speaker-2: love I've I've been drowning in Attack on Titan. And like I've got this big community who's like selling me on it and I I do a Patreon for them and I'm loving it. And I'm like, don't let these f take your thing from you. But the other thing about that the God of War one is that the complaint that you'll hear a lot with media, with film and TV is people will go and like look Through the lore of it and say, well, this is why it can't be a woman. But with that, we know that they fought and we know that he lost to her, right? It's a bit of a story. We've heard them literally say she is as strong as him. And speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: he talks about so it's like, okay, well, what's the issue here then? She we know she we know it's a g also they're gods. I know. The new the new one is Aslan in Greta Gerwig's I've can't remember which one she's doing, but she's doing one of the line, The Witch in the Wardrobe books. I it's pr no, it's not Prince Caspian. One of those stories I've already forgotten. But it's Aslan and they've it's got Meryl Stroop's voice, and they're like, how could a woman because Aslan is allegedly like an allegory for Jesus. Yeah. Like, how could a woman be Jesus? It's a lion. So they've they've skipped the animal bit and they're like, right, it couldn't be a woman's voice in the body of a lion. speaker-1: Not a woman is speaker-2: It reaches a point of funny, but it's so prevalent and it seems to be working that it's not funny. speaker-0: They're so fragile. that is so crazy that you've got to sit at home throughout the mouth, thinking about it. And also that makes me think of there's a scene in Modern Family where I think they're talking about Meryl's I think Cam and Mitchell, two characters, are talking about how Meryl Streep's someone said Meryl Streep's not the right choice to play anything, and Cam goes, Meryl Streep can play back speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah, I totally agree. All right. These are good winding me up. I just I'm gonna do a film and TV pod with you now. speaker-2: I mean I will always get wound up about annoying stuff in film and TV anyway. speaker-0: Yeah. Well there's so much too, isn't there? Yeah. especially considering you would have seen quite a bit of it firsthand with choreography and stuff, so you've seen workings of behind the scenes speaker-2: In terms of Yeah, it's like I think anyone who's been an artist as well knows that like the big the big stresses are usually technical things that you're trying to navigate. How do I transition from this over to here? How do I get this shot right? How do we you know, in dancing there's a lot of like unison material. So the actual things that people who care about those art forms, the technical things. There's a really great video of Fran Liebewitz says, she

was she's she is a cultural commentator, she's from New York, she's she's But she was a cultural commentator before the days of TikTok. She just is a br a force of nature. And she talked a lot about she there's this incredible viral clip of her talking about the death of the audience from the AIDS crisis. That during the AIDS crisis, yes, we lost lots of talent, but we also lost a huge amount of this audience that was so passionate about the things they were paying attention to. And they had this high level of connoisseurship. And she specifically references ballet. She's like, If so I can't remember which dancer she names a dancer, if that dancer their foot was here instead of here, they'd be crucified. And that's the thing. People who actually care about an art form very rarely are thinking about, well, it's a man and not a woman. They're more like, these shot choices are a bit odd, or the structure of this story doesn't quite work, or the or there's an imbalance of tone, there's a tonal shift that's not quite working. Like those are the things we're all focused on, really. It isn't casting. It just that that very rarely comes into my head. I'm more like. Why have you made this very specific narrative choice that isn't quite balanced with the beginning of the first act or something? I just watched Sense and Sensibility last night. yeah and I I was at the screen for it and I came away like it just didn't look that interesting. I just had those are my critiques. It's very it's you know, some of my friends who are dancers are extras in it, and I know a couple of them are not white British people. It's not distracting. It's not like I just go, shit, that's my friend. I just like clocked on. And so I just think anybody who really cares about art is thinking about way different things than the things that the sort of woke, anti woke people are stressed about. speaker-1: for sure. speaker-0: I couldn't agree more to be honest. as a like doing the choreography that you have done before, how conscious are you of actually creating an environment where you know, a performer can say, I don't want to do that and everyone feels safe? speaker-2: Yeah, I mean I was pretty fortunate that I didn't make that kind of work. Most you know, because I never really I was fortunate enough that I was not interested in topics that were tough and difficult. However, like there are there are challenges in general to making dance work that that I mean, any kind of theater actually. I've been in processes before and I've I've been a part of things that were really tough, and I think usually in there was there was a very specific period. So when I started dancing, when I started dancing like professionally to train, that was like 2009. And I I kind of left and came back. So like it was like a five-year window. I joined kind of at the end of an era for dance that was like brutal. You know, people were throwing things at people in the studio and body issues were a huge part of the problem. I rem you know, I I I weirdly can't kind of talk about stuff because there were like legal issues between we we What can I say here? We lost a there was someone who ran the school that I was a part of that was pushed out because they were like saying some pretty crazy stuff to the students about the way they looked. And there was a shift, and there has basically been a really hard shift to way more care, way more prioritizing sort of everyone's mental health and their and their focus on their body. That has shifted things in a different direction that has both pros and cons, but the industry dramatically shifted anyway. From a kind of era I grew up in an era of you do remember the movie Whiplash when he throws the chair at the dude's head? I watched that with a bunch of dancers and we went, okay. really? So he threw a chair. Like that was the that was the era that I remember that like, yeah, you have to get what you gotta get out of these guys. And that has been slowly changing. And, you know, it's so weird. I I'm I I it the programming and the conditioning because You could have gotten me to defend that era. You could probably still get me to defend that era and still defend the results of that work and the what pressure, pressure makes diamonds, all of that bullshit. Because it is, it's very it's it's very addictive. It's very I don't know what the word is. It's it's there's a sort of like taste you get for the feeling of pushing through something. And it's very brainwashing. But, you know, I I I had peers who had Self-discipline that I never had. They could push themselves to some very hard level. the sort of an actor who loses a load of weight and then puts on a load of weight. Yeah. It's fantastic. And we we we celebrate it. It's so dangerous for your body to do that. And yet we never really talk about that. Really? We just like, wow, look at Christian Day. Look at him go. But so that's o often the thing that really shifted in the dance industry. But even I like look back on it and I have to strip myself of a lot of that because I I at the end of the day, I wanted to make the best piece. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: I've had processes, I've had really tough processes when I was a choreographer where the piece was incredible, but the process was tough. And even I had to look internally and go, I think I messed up here, or this was a tough moment. And then I've had the other the other side of things where the piece hasn't gone that well, but the process was incredible. And I really valued that too. So it's it was dancing theater went through a really challenging period. Kind around 2012 to 2016 of a lot of names having to confront essentially abusive practices that they had realized that they had been calling the work. So speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: I don't know what it's like now. That's the thing. I'm not really in it. You're not in it. I'm not in it. I haven't I haven't made a piece in over a year. I dance is an interesting

industry where if you stop hustling, it's not gonna hustle back. Yeah. So my CV means nothing. They're like, what's Jamal doing? It's like he's not in my inbox, so he doesn't exist. So I haven't made a piece for a year and I haven't really been a part of the sector properly for maybe two. Yeah. So I don't know what it's like now. I f I it it I these things bounce back and forth. It could return to that sort of old school thing. Who who knows? I have no idea. but it's a fascinating industry that I'm surprised more people don't know more about. Yeah. But I mean I've I've seen crazy shit. speaker-1: I imagine. I can imagine. speaker-0: No no more off off my speaker-2: Yeah, it's funny, there are stories that I can't no, I can't talk about them. They're so some of them have been reported in the news, they're so bad. And if I mention things it's like, well Yeah, I'm just like yeah. speaker-1: No, of course, it's get you in trouble for it. So fair. speaker-0: Know what's like sorry, you go cut you across, but I was just thinking when you were talking, it's so interesting to me that you're talking about things in dance and stuff where chairs are thrown, there's this very, angry perfectionist energy. And that's so antithetical to, you know, dance. Like it's seen as this very feminine thing. It's like cooking. speaker-2: yeah. speaker-0: Seen as a very feminine thing cooking, but once you get speaker-2: Screaming in this again. speaker-0: Angry, it's violence and it's this so why do you think speaker-2: Well, I I did sport when I was younger. Nothing was harder than dance. Yeah. Like I I laugh at people who were like, ballet. I'm like, yeah, ballet, are you fucking joking? That broke me. Bro I played rugby as a kid, didn't much basketball, football. Nothing hurt me more than dancing. Wow. The the the ethos of it, the culture of it, the physical like my body's broken. I can't like you couldn't ask me to dance again. I couldn't do it. I've I've had so many injuries. I've I had a an injury When I was rock climbing once, the dance like made way worse. Wow. It's you know, your your your spine is doing this all the time. You're you're you're there's this thing about head and tail connection about like these two points of the body. And so you're always like on this very specific twisting and turning, and your knees are always like it's brutal. But yeah, I I think I'm gonna be honest, the the chef thing you're talking about, it's it is that a lot of men get involved in it. That's part of it. It's the images you're thinking about are the dude from the bear and Corner Ramsey. speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. speaker-2: And I've been in loads of kitchens and as of so not in them working, but I've I've gone to restaurants where they have like an open kitchen. I'm like, no one's yelling and screaming at screen is if it has to be that bad. Yeah. And I also don't think the dance industry has to be that bad or ballet had to be that bad. But you know, yeah, we there's a r there's I also think there's a thing of like because people sort of look at it like, it's just a silly little thing, there's a real need to be like, no. Yes. I had I had there's this great quote from someone I I haven't seen for years who said, the thing about dancing is is that the stakes are really, really high, but it also is just dancing. Yeah. And that's the world that you live in all the time. Like I cannot get this thing wrong on this night of this show. I have to hear every single count that we've been rehearsing for weeks and weeks. But also it is just a little bit it's just a little it's just a little boogie, honestly. And that I think is a very odd space to sit in. Yeah. as when you're training, 'cause you do flip between the two things. speaker-0: That's fascinating. Sorry. speaker-1: Do think that men and women in the space experience differently? speaker-2: Yes. Yes. It's easy for guys. Firstly, there's only eight of us. Yeah. So there's less competition. I went to an audition once. There was one role for a woman and five five roles for men. There were like eight of us for those five roles. There like sixty women for the one. So the the sense of competition is already way worse, which is a is an absolute fuck for your mental health. That's not great. There's a real stress about being in competition with your peers and also like You get something that I wanted, but I am your friend, so I'm celebrating you. Yes. Also I'm like Yeah, and I think that because you're going through that lot more as a woman, that's not great. Yeah. body stuff a hundred percent. You're looking at yourself in a mirror every single day and you're having a teacher go poking and speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: that's not great. I think as well, dance has a lot of biases. Race is a big factor in it too. privilege and and income was a big thing. I mean, the amount of people that I know, you know. I I met Jillian Lynn who made cats and she was the choreographer for cats and god, another big one. I've I'm gonna forget the name of it now. And I remember her being like, You to say yes to everything. And I was like, Well yeah, I have to because I can't afford to not say yes to things. And I remember the privilege of other people being like, I don't want to do that job. No they're speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: being supported by their parents. So across it's it's it's the same as any of the in industry. There are just so many privileges that I mean, theatre in general is the same. You know, we are We are very slowly making it impossible for the working class to be a part of it. And then for also, how many black people refuse to work not refuse to, but can't get work in England, so they go to the States it because because they want to be actors. So it's it's all the same things that you get in in theatre with acting and music is kind of going that way a little bit more too. 'cause who's got the money to like sell themselves on TikTok a lot to like promote their song to people

who come from money. So, you know, it's all the same problems as every other speaker-1: Of course. speaker-2: I don't know if there's anything else. I yeah, I think the the thing about body is is the one that I don't think a lot of men have to contest with nearly as much. Yeah. Like there are things, but it's it's just not comparable. We never talked about it. I've never with any of my guy friends when we were dancing talked about like that concern. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. That I can imagine that comes up with women. speaker-2: Regularly. Regularly. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Wow. And you talk a lot about like TV and film and also masculinity, manosphere. What do you think the link is between that? Because I guess pop culture influences a lot about what we think about men and women. What do you think the link speaker-2: I think people are not nearly the okay, so I think this across the spectrum, but I speak about this a lot with gender. I think people are not nearly enough interested in media that isn't talking to them. Mm-hmm. And so I have a it's a very snobby rule of mine, but like if you say you love movies, but you don't engage in stories about fellow people that look don't look like you, so if you are a cinephile but you've never watched black move like black cinephile movies, you're not a cinephile. You just love your story. If you say you love TV, I have this thing like you cannot love TV, like really love TV and not have watched girls. Yeah. I that is one of the most phenomenal pieces of writing. You can also hate by the way, you can hate the show. Yeah. You can watch the show and hate it. But it's your duty as someone who says I love it, I'm a student of it, you should have watched that show. And so like that's my thing. you should have watched Portrait of a Lady on Fire by now. You you love Yearning, what What are we doing? It's only when it's straight couples? You should have watched is it all what was the Andrew Scott one? Is it called All of Us Strangers? Is that what I might have mixed up? Is it's it's is it it's a gay couple. But I just think if you love those things, if you claim to be a student of those things, you should be engaging with all of speaker-1: Yeah speaker-2: them. Now, if you're not, and most people aren't, most people are just at home like wanting to be comforted. I'm a bit more forgiving. I'm not really, but I'm a little bit more forgiving. But that's my thing about gender and masculinity is that far too many people who have this woke, whatever it is, they are just basically saying, I'm just not interested in the rest of the world. And they don't know how to confront that. And they're only interested in it when it's palatable to them. So yeah, Sarah Connor works for them in Terminator. It's from a specific time. It's not really challenging them too much. In the first movie, she's not really as strong as she's in the second movie. It does what they need them to do. There are certain movies they love about blackness and

whatnot that does what they need them to do. I don't think people really want to be like, well, the world isn't what I think it. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: And media is literally literature, movies, books, music, it's all there to remind you, like you don't actually, you don't have all of these experiences. So here let me give you Yes. So I'm watching girls like, fuck, I'm never gonna be a mid-20s white woman in New York. Yeah. I don't know that feeling. What a joyous opportunity it is for Lee Girl. Tell me about it. Yeah. I love Insecure is another great show. I'm never gonna be a black woman in LA. What a great chance to to like see that experience. So speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. speaker-2: it's just like I'm not gonna it's never gonna replace that feeling. I don't suddenly know what it's like. Yeah. But the idea that I get a window in it's speaker-1: without like speaker-2: like Wha why would I and it's also just again back to this it's so interesting as a as a lover of art. Yeah. It's so I can't have the same story over and over again. all this com all this complaining about Hollywood's not original anymore. It's d it's like all there are all these stories you never watched in the first place. So yeah, that's for me where it begins with art. Is like, are you are you do you actually love this thing or do you just love your story in many forms? There's a there's a very interesting book called Understanding comics and it's it's it's a fascinating book, but there's a middle section where it talks about the neutral mask and the way that we tend to love media that allows us to implant ourselves onto it. So why we love superheroes because they all wear masks. We could be behind the we could be Iron Man. But there's also that sort of similar concept in movies like Harry Potter. The most interesting character in Harry Potter is not Harry Potter. The most interesting character in Lord of the Rings is not Elijah Wood, it's not Frodo. So the lead of those stories is always a way for us to go, yes, this could be Luke's. We could all be Luke Skywalker. It's always a white dude. Yeah. And so we have all we have, and it's sometimes a white woman, but it's almost always a white dude. And so we have basically been like, how do we see ourselves in stories? All of us, you and me, it's through white men. And it's like, I you can do that too for us. You can do that too for for for other stories about other people and about other communities and about other sectors of humanity, you know? But it's like that's gonna. It's gonna take a lot of work, but the first thing is you have to just acknowledge that you're not doing it. Like, speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: you're not seeing yourself in this fifteen year old girl in this story about I don't know, whatever. I just read a book recently about it's called Sunburn. If you speaker-0: Yes, yeah. speaker-2: read somebody it's it's it's about this young Irish girl who's like realizing she's gay in the nineties. Beautiful. It's it's beautiful. The yearning every page I'm like, I've been there, honey. Yeah. I've w I've wanted someone as much as you've wanted someone. I've I've never I've never speaker-1: my god. Every. speaker-2: Every page. Every page you're like, how did you find a new way to want this? But every fucking speaker-1: It's so good speaker-0: that's where hated rivalry and stuff year. I speaker-2: Exactly. Have you never been there? Yeah. speaker-1: You speaker-0: I watched I love exactly what you're saying. I'm just sitting here nodding because it is exactly how I like to consume films and like you know, I think of like last year I watched Love Lies Bleeding, which speaker-2: Yes, yeah, the the bodybuilding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-0: It's a it's a lesbian film, Kristen Stewart is in it. They're bodybuilders in America in this very specific time period. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: yeah, it's like a project. Again, I will never that's never the life I'm gonna lead. I'm not gonna jack myself up on steroids and fall in love and do potentially some murderous things. But watching it, you're just in trance and you're thinking to yourself, You're missing out. You're missing out so much because of your myopic worldview. Because you will not engage in art that is beyond your spectrum. And think of all the ways you could open yourself up. Yeah. speaker-2: And you can do it for those one of my favorite shows is is Justified. It's a show about a white rural town. Most of the leads are men. So so you c there are other worlds that include those people too that aren't being discussed. That's it's a super poor town, it's it's called Harlan County. And so like we we we're we were always doing it for you guys is kind of my thing. I'm like, I I n I know white people so well. I like I have never not read about you, watched you, listened to you. We we are s we are we are we are masters at at white people. You know, and it's just it's so easy. It's just you just turn the show on and just go, all right, great. I mean we're going through a lot with lanterns right now, the new DC show about the Green Lantern. Because there are elements of like they've they've said the word black, basically. The black the black character has said that he is black. Okay. No one really wants to no one really wants to hear that. He's like at one point they're like, why you know, they're kind of asking him a question about why didn't you tell us this information? He's like, I'm a black man in rural Nebraska. And it's like, whoa, we all we all know that you're a black man in rural Nebraska, dude. We know we can see it, we don't need it mentioned. speaker-1: God forbid you say it. speaker-2: You God forbid you mention the obvious thing that we see. You know, there's a yeah, I don't know. I can I can talk about that again. speaker-0: I love that. on that note, if you you obviously talk a lot about, masculinity and you've clearly got some things that you think people should learn from films and TV.

If you could give one young boy, like one film or TV show to watch and say, you know, this is this models men or women or relationships really well. speaker-2: I actually have a great show, and it weirdly it is the lead is a is a white dude. It's a show called High Maintenance. I've actually talked about it before. It's about a weed dealer in New York who basically drops off weed to people, but every single episode is a brand new story. Sometimes he's barely in it. Sometimes it literally is just him handing off the weed and then he disappears and we're with these people. But I think that he has such a the the the he wrote it, he wrote it and created it with his one-time partner who they split. And I I I think she's in the show as well because they do their show, because she's gay now. So well, she's probably always gay or bi, I believe. But she's it I think they do their story for one episode too. So he's like with her partner at one point. I can't remember. And his level of curiosity about the world is so natural and so open. I think it is a really useful, I think it's useful for everyone, but for young men in particular, he just ha he just oozes masculinity to me. He just oozes a real natural sense of like. Very comfortable in my body and my skin and all of this. I it's very hard to make him feel less about himself. But he is moving through the world with a deeply curious sense of like, who are you? And because he's just there to sell you weed and it's like the barbers, or it's like going to the hairdressers, like you're there to kind of chat. And he's he has to have a very specific sort of forward-facing open nature with people. And so he just meets the wildest, craziest people. And New York is such a vivid city, anyway. It's very like like London. And I just have always loved that show. I come back to it a lot. And I just find the the curiosity being the thing. He because he's writing also he's basically saying, I don't want to be the star of this. I want to make New York the star of this and the people of New York the star of this. And so he has to be open to this story about this trans person or about this gay person or about these these women here or about or about black people or about Asian. He's he has or, about he has he does an episode about I I believe it's a very speci I think it's an Iraqi immigrant? I can't remember. It's a family, and it's like, okay, cool. We have to keep diving into all of these stories in order to tell them really well. And I don't think he writes every single one. I think he writes, brings other writers in two. But that show for me is like, watch that show, watch that man, watch other people's stories. And I don't know. It just that show did something to me when I first watched it. speaker-1: You've made me one of them. speaker-0: I've not seen it. speaker-2: I don't know where it is in the UK. I watched it when I was I was in America. So I watched it on HBO. It's probably now TV. Yeah. It's out there somewhere. Little free plug for now. speaker-0: Censor it. speaker-2: There are other TV channels are available. speaker-1: you speaker-0: No, we'll take a sponsorship, it's fine. I think I mean, well, I could do all this forever. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, we're going to get into serious time. Yeah. I guess we tend to ask like quite a few guests this question because we find it quite interesting. Was there a moment or a time where you realized that men and women navigate the world differently? speaker-2: Yeah. I probably had many times, but the one that always comes back to me is I it feels quite late. The well, hmm. The one that comes back to me a lot is it's so weird, I think about it all the time actually. I I was my and my first I've I've my first relationship when I was in uni, we'd actually left uni by now. So like three years in now as a couple. And we were we were living together and we were like unboxing stuff, and at one point she finds a water pistol that I had a like quite a big one. But there was also a very little one. And she'd filled it up and she starts shooting me with this water pistol. And I'm then like, ha ha ha, let's shoot each other with water. And I fill up the tiny one and I do the same thing. And we're like chasing each other around the house. And then she just starts crying, like out of the blue. And I'm like, Whoa, what happened? And she was kind of going, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And we like hugged, and then she just went, I just didn't realise how quick you were. I just didn't realise how fast you were. I didn't realise how And she it took her a couple weeks. It was the f and I think she quite kind of had the realization too. She was like, I didn't realize that I'm in danger with you if I'm if if you want to hurt me. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: And so it was like, fuck, this person who I've been with for now like three years is even now in this moment, like I was actually probably more scared of her up until this point. But like really and truly, really and truly, she had a moment of like, if this person wanted to, he could hurt. speaker-1: Yeah speaker-2: And I I'm not as quick, I'm not as strong. I would be trapped with him in this house that we've just moved into together. Yeah. And that is a thing that has stayed with me for a really long time. Because of course, the story there is that she started the war fight. Yeah. But there is this, there's this thing that I've talked about before, which is that I don't think any of these I don't believe in double standards. I just think they're fucking nonsense. I think that all of these things, you know, the the the example I always come back to is like if a white dude says white power, that sounds very different to when a black dude says black power. So we know that there are these like very clear differences between us that mean that double standards aren't really double standards. And so her getting a water pistol and shooting me with it is not the same

as me chasing her around the house with an even smaller one. The feelings that arise in both of us feel different. And they may be different, you know, you know, you always sort of kind of keep open the openness of the world. There's probably a dude out there that's gone through something with a woman who may have been treated by a water fight too, but in the in in a general sense, it was like, yeah, shit. I know I know we're moving through the world differently, but I was made to feel it. And like made to hold someone as they were emo and they were kind of feeling it too. Yeah. That for me like lives in the back of my brain. speaker-1: Yeah. I've had a similar experience where it's like, I used to call it witching hour at night where I start going with it. Like it's meant to be bedtime, but now I'm all of sudden wide awake and I would be like play fighting. Right. And I've started it. But then the minute that. All of a sudden I'm not in control of that anymore. All of a sudden I'm like, actually you're bigger than me, stronger than me. And if you could, like if you wanted to, you could hurt me or overpower me. And I've definitely been like, okay, actually I've had enough. I can't do this anymore. And it's still play fighting. Like it's, I knew he wasn't going to hurt me, still the fear. speaker-0: I had exact play fighting with previous partners. Yeah. It's it's not you never, freaked out and was like, fuck you, whatever. But it's just that sobering realization. Once it goes a little bit too far and you're like speaker-1: Yeah, I was like, no, I actually am stuck now. I actually can't get out of this. speaker-0: It's not like it it didn't make me, think differently about my partners or anything. It just made me think differently about myself and my position. So it's very it's very I completely relate to this. I think that's yeah, really, really interesting. wow. So another thing that I wanted to ask is speaker-2: I like this setup so that you can always remo you know what the next thing is. I'm like, how do you know what's coming next? because you asked I've been answering you very well sure. speaker-1: you've spotted it. Like I said, brain of a goldfish, I would not remember any of this. speaker-2: I feel like I put it on the spot. speaker-0: I feel like we weren't very well together and I will like get a bit of tangent and I'm like, Carl's. speaker-1: Yeah, I'll give her a look and I'm like, you need a... speaker-0: I'm getting sucked into the film. speaker-2: Sorry, you were gonna say speaker-1: Bye. speaker-0: I was gonna ask you, I mean, whether there was any sort of belief that you had about masculinity or women or relationships that you had to unlearn. speaker-2: That's a tough question, 'cause I I don't hmm Probably. The answer is probably. I don't remember being that person weirdly. I my parents, my my f I watched my father cook, clean, be that guy basically my entire, but also he was the breadwinner of the of the house. But I also learned a lot, like I learned a lot. My my father's my white parent. I learned a lot through him because I would tell him stuff that I was going through, and he would be like, kinda sounds racist. Kind of sounds like They might have been racist too. I'm like, why are you telling? How how do you know? But he basically had that he he was like, Well, I know white people, I know my people. And I think it's a similar thing where he knew men too. And so one of the things I remember when we were kids that w my sister, who is a very famous singer in the UK and gets on stage and talks to people for hours on end while she's doing her songs, she developed a stutter at one point because we we're a big dinner table talking family, as you can tell. Yeah. speaker-1: You speaker-2: And so we would debate things a lot. even as a kid, we would debate pretty heavy topics. We have a family group chat that is always going off. I'm sure there's 40 messages there. and at one point, my sister, you know, she had two older brothers and two parents who all who all knew kind of how to speak and were all developing their voice. And she couldn't get a word out. Or it would take her too long, so someone would interrupt her. And my dad had to be really forceful about going, no, stop, like, let her finish her sentence. So I think that I was very fortunate that I ha my my I had a great role model. Had, he's still around, Jesus. have a great role. speaker-1: What do mean where am I? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: Looks at my mum like, are we? Yeah. But so I had a have had and always will have a speaker-1: Yeah speaker-2: great role model to look back on. So for me, I think that we couldn't say certain things and get away with it. There's no way I could ever have said anything about body counts growing up. If any of that I mean I didn't live through the manosphere, obviously. I mean I'm living through it now, but I didn't grow up through it. My I have a younger brother who is just going off to uni. So There was a little moment in time where we got really worried, not because he was saying anything, but because we were like, What's he about speaker-1: Yeah, what's he speaker-2: to do? He was at a boys school for a little bit too. Fortunately, he's a musician and he doesn't give a shit about any of it. So we got very fortunate there as well. But I just couldn't really have said anything without him going, What the f like he would have he would have he would have he probably would have clipped me if he wanted to to What the fuck did you just say? So I think I got lucky there. I'm trying to think now. I don't r I don't recall body counts being a big thing when we were growing up. I don't recall gender roles being a big thing when we it wasn't really talked about so much. I think that there was a little window where a lot of that those discussions had gone and we were actually in a really progressive place. absolutely. And we've kind of regressed. And so there's a lot of stuff I hear that

I'm like, hold on a minute. This is fifties, but it wasn't nineties. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's kind of like we did this, we were coming out. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: And I feel like maybe I was around a good little window. my parents in my house they had parties quite a lot. We had like New Year's parties. I was seeing gay people as a kid. Like I'm and now it's like you're outwardly allowed to say, you're outwardly allowed to be homophobic. You know, it's very interesting about I was talking about football earlier and like, you know, they you know, once a year, whenever it's appropriate, they'll do like a sort of rainbow armband thing. And you'll get people be like, don't bring that into sport. And it's like, What what do we what happened? So I probably did have exactly what you probably there it probably was something that I had to unlearn, but the big thing that I remember was half of this stuff just wasn't a thing. speaker-1: Yeah speaker-2: And I and I weirdly think there's a similar thing with all the discussions that I think Nigel Farage and they're trying to have about immigrants as well, where I go, Hold on a minute. Yeah. This was I grew up in Leicester. I grew up like the street near me was like curry houses and sari shops and Indian sweet food. I'm like Leicester now doesn't like so there's a lot of stuff that I grew up with that I thought we were in a really progressive era and there's it we're rebelling against that now. So I've sort of fudged the answer a little bit and gotten away with it by saying, I don't know, but there probably was something. I'm just not I just don't think that window of my life felt connected to anything I hear now. Yeah. Any of the rhetoric I hear now feels alien to me. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: There were things that I definitely probably had, and I probably, you know, I probably did talk over people. I probably d I pr probably did have a little bit of arrogance as as a young man. I probably did have these little things, these little dials that needed changing. But in general, like even the sexists I grew up with are like, hey dude, what the hell's going on now? Like it's crazy. And I'm like, Yeah, bro, you were bad then. speaker-1: Sorry. speaker-0: Get on with this modern day so- speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, this yeah. Did we speaker-1: I'm like it's gone speaker-2: do that? speaker-0: Hopefully. speaker-1: A wee? speaker-2: No, I didn't this You know, Andrew Tate is my age. What the fuck did you grow up? speaker-1: Yeah speaker-2: So, you know, yeah, it's a tough question for me to answer because I don't recognise the world that we're moving in. I mean speaker-1: It's nice song, isn't it? speaker-0: I know I think it's a fascinating answer because I I definitely agree. I think that there was a period of time where it seemed like things there was still bad stuff. I grew up in the naughties as a woman, definitely had a bad relationship with food and things like that and all the suffering that you went through, but it did feel like we were getting towards this kind of more harmonious place. People like joke now about millennial optimism. It was fun. It was we had a nice time. It was a good time. We had fun. We were happy. lots of different friends from different areas. And now it's like you've got a rage bait online, everything's got to be the worst thing ever. The hatred has risen. You know, I also think like you that sometimes it's a little bit like we've got too far away from remembering struggles. And like now you've always had rights or had things nice. And it's like you've forgotten. that actually so now they're just rebelling on it. It's like the crazy people who say things like, the Holocaust wasn't real. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Too far away in history from that and you're allowed to think these crazy things. speaker-1: And I think the more they're allowing people to think these crazy things, they get worse and Exactly. Like saying the Holy Ghost wasn't real. It's like, what do you even mean? What the hell are you talking about? Because they've been allowed to say smaller things. Slowly. it's getting worse. Now you're a state. they're Freedom of speech. speaker-2: Because of the phone, there's always gonna be a place for them to find other people. I used to have this weird thing about how do terrorists find other terror? How do you as a crazy person wants to blow a building up go, Hey, I've got an idea? But now I'm like, yeah, there's a space for there's a space speaker-1: It's for all of them. For everyone. Whatever you believe, there's a space online for that. speaker-0: I say it as well, you know, we're in serious times, so sorry to bring it down, but that when you get the stories like Giselle Pellicott, whose speaker-2: Yes. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: husband, you know, is drugging her and having hang over to assault her and rape her, but what always blows my mind in the in the worst way possible is that this man decided to do this thing and then found all these other men. speaker-1: In their community. Yeah, I think that's I saw. that from speaker-0: Some of them they speaker-1: travel? One was like her neighbor, was something, don't quote me, but there was like a doctor in the community. I think that I saw a quote during that exact time and I cannot remember the number of her perpetrators, but it was something along the lines of not all men, but X amount of men are part of her direct community. So it's like this not all men. record whatever. And it's like, she, was her neighbor or this person who lives in her community, this shopkeeper. it's like all these. started speaker-2: I didn't speaker-1: that conversation as well. Who mentioned it first and was like, Hey, I do this thing. speaker-0: Exactly, but that's exactly what I'm thinking. with your like in a non-jokey way, Terry's example, I always said the same thing. how would you even bring that up? And then they go, yeah, I'm into that. yeah, I'm coming

round. It's so crazy. Yeah. speaker-1: It's cat. speaker-0: I just you would like to think that if your partner said that to his friends, I mean obviously my partner and or your partner's not gonna say that, but they would go, What the hell are you talking about? I'm calling the police. But they find them and it is crazy to me. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, part of me is like I'm giving up well, particularly 'cause I'm content now. No one's gonna come up to me and say, Hey, I've got this club. I'm gonna be like, Hey brother, do you do you s so there's a there's a sense that people are clearly signaling, but it's still it's still like that I that's crazy. I didn't know how I thought it was all like dark web stuff. No no speaker-1: Yeah, don't quote me on the exact- speaker-2: no no no no but but I that's that makes that story it was already a crazy story. speaker-1: Yeah, that's crazy story. speaker-0: I remember she said something like she used to say hello to him every night. speaker-2: No. speaker-1: Yeah, that was yeah, it was something. speaker-2: God, that's that's grim. Grim. speaker-1: It was it was. speaker-2: It was already grim. It's it's just grim. speaker-1: I just added, yeah. speaker-2: That was a st that was yeah, sometimes a story pops up and I'm like, I can't I can't look at it. And that was one that was one of those ones where 'cause there was another one at the same time, but that was one of those ones where I was like, I can't read this. speaker-0: It's hard. It's hard because you do have to protect your peace, as we always say, if you need to. Yeah. But then on the other hand, it's like, i I I want to support these victims and know their story. It's speaker-1: again. speaker-0: it's so hard and I don't judge anyone for going like that is too speaker-1: can't do it. Yeah, definitely. speaker-2: I've just been talking about this movie that I want people to go and see called Josephine. But I've also been like, I'm not recommending it because it it has a harrowing scene in it to do with this exact topic. And it's and it's like, but it's also I'm also going, This is so important. This particularly the way they deal with it in this movie, and I won't say too much about it because it's the release, they've not even put a trail- no, they put a trailer out for it. It's basically a young girl witnesses an event, and then you live in the fallout of that with her and her family. And I'm watching it going, God, everyone should see this, but also If don't want to, I'm not gonna push speaker-1: Yet. speaker-2: far. It's hard to watch. Me, I went with a with another contact great. This was in Canada, and we didn't know what it was about. So we're there going, this is what it's about? Okay. We went blind and that was brutal. So yeah, it it's a difficult one with those stories. I think I think I I agree with you. It's it it's that yeah, you do have to protect your peace, but I that's crazy. I'm like, I'm a little I'm kind of like, my god,

I'm hearing the story again. speaker-1: It's so sorry to horrify you. speaker-0: Reeling, isn't it? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, we may need to plug in a trigger warning. speaker-0: No, we will become that. Sorry, go ahead. Should we lighten it up? Yes. speaker-1: Yeah, we have a pre-record. We do a segment called green light, red light, green flag, red flag. where I'm going to read out a series of things and we've got these little paddles. you can either do green or red, you can flop between if you are more of an orange or. speaker-0: Greenlight Red Light is powered by Pod. One of the reasons why we love partnering with Pod is that we see firsthand the work that they do in supporting women in the workplace, building a better world for business, and they're so genuine in absolutely everything that they do. speaker-1: Through Eden at Pod, their program for social change, they're stepping up to tackle some of the systemic challenges facing society today by building a representative workforce, helping their people thrive, and allowing communities to grow stronger. speaker-0: Pod is a business that gives back and creates opportunities for all. Their mission is to power the life we love without costing the earth. speaker-1: and Eat In It pod is making sure that everyone is a part of that journey. Thanks again to our sponsor pod. speaker-0: You can learn more about Pod and find out more about their trailblazing program for social change at poddenergy.com forward slash Eden. Okay. You keep one yourself. speaker-1: Yeah. So we're speaker-2: Okay. speaker-1: going to do it with you as well because Natasha doesn't like questions. speaker-2: And all yours will be green, I'll give every single one the opposite. speaker-1: Some are related to the topics we talk about, some are just like, fun. speaker-0: And you can work through your y your little reasoning or if you just feel like it's an easy red or speaker-1: And we'll do a countdown too after I say it. So we can do it at the same time. speaker-0: Announce it when you say it in case people aren't watching it. Yeah. Green, red, amber. speaker-2: Do we all do it together? Yeah. Yes. All right. At the same time. I you s sorry, you're saying green or red or stop or go? speaker-0: Green, red, and then amber. speaker-2: Okay, cool. speaker-1: Okay. Someone, is it a green light or a red light if someone is always running late? Three, two, one. speaker-0: It's not speaker-1: I'm doing it. Okay. speaker-2: I'm okay with green actually. Yeah. I'm just a bit like being on time is is always re Yeah, I'm alright with it. I don't think anything's that important. speaker-1: Maybe I should say that too then because I'm always running. speaker-0: I'm an amber because I feel bad about the fact that I am always late and I know it's not but I don't intend it disrespectfully and it is that kind of thing where if it happens to me and it's five or ten minutes I'm like speaker-2: I think be there at your child's birth. Yeah. speaker-1:

But speaker-2: You don't have to be up on time for work. You know, I don't love that. The trains don't need to run on time. No. I don't really care. I don't know. I don't think any of this matters. I don't think any of what we have built matters. I don't give a shit about your quarterly whatever's. Come to work late. In fact, you know what? Come to work late. I don't believe in in I don't believe in in our in that. It's nonsense. Nons yeah, I hate it. speaker-1: I love it. So fair. speaker-0: And when I had speaker-2: Burn it to the ground. Like the whole thing. speaker-0: just sitting for meetings and when people were really seriously talking about in it's something I didn't care about, seriously talking about like the projections for this and God I'd be like, none of us care. speaker-2: Yeah yeah. None of us could I used to wa I used to write with a dancer who would turn up late every session and she would come in right at the last minute and be my god, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry and in her hand would be a prayer and I'm like, you had time for the coffee though. speaker-1: No, I, do you know what? I'm bad for that. I'll be like, and it'll be an iced coffee too, so it's, I've just got it. speaker-2: There's a window of course. An hour is probably two. speaker-1: Yeah speaker-0: I'd say thirty minutes is quite bad and I think speaker-2: Yeah, like there's a few minutes. speaker-0: Yeah, five to ten. I'm only saying this because I want to cover my heart. speaker-1: Yeah, no, me too. All right, someone whose phone is always on do not disturb. two, one. speaker-0: I'm sorry. speaker-1: I'm gonna go with Amber. Purely, I mean, I work in social media. My phone, I do find it exhausting sometimes. Like the pop-up notifications. Sometimes I'm just like, for my phone to be on do not disturb, then I go and look at the notifications when I'm ready to. speaker-2: I think it's just the word always. Because speaker-0: Yeah, that's speaker-1: This is true. speaker-2: I have mine on j don't still a lot and I do think we are far too accessible speaker-1: Yes, always. that's why I was like Amber, because I also do think I've definitely thought about it in like the dating sense as well when a man's phone is always on do not disturb. always like, I'm just not going to speaker-0: emergency or what if I really need you in that moment? I know you can set up rules speaker-1: Mine has roles. You bring me twice it comes though. speaker-0: But my my emergency might be the friend to appeal about. speaker-1: And my, yeah, true, all my closest friends. speaker-2: an emergency is an emergency. Yeah, exactly. If I need you, I need you. The speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: Exactly. speaker-2: other day I didn't I didn't text about my girlfriend and and then she said she w she was she'll send me a message going, everything okay? And I'm like, shit, yeah. Sorry, and I'll call her. She go, takes five seconds, Jen. speaker-1: You were like, yep, fair enough. speaker-2: We're long distance. Yeah. So the phone is a big thing. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: and she's right. And it was it was very like, I'm sorry, won't happen again. And had a re it was yesterday. God, I never said I was on the way here yesterday because I thought I got my things mixed up. I thought I was supposed be here. I actually I actually had a screening across town. no. So then I was on the I was just like, I've just fucking gone the wrong way, blah blah blah. So then when I didn't text her back, I like, Yeah, I've had a frazzled morning. She was like, It takes five minutes. And it is just like a yeah, I'm having a good morning. I hope you are too. That's it. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Can't can't play for a while. Love you, bye. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Okay. speaker-2: I will say, I will say, if if if you're dating and that man is pushing back on the texting, he doesn't like you. I am speaker-1: Yeah, fair. speaker-2: very much in love with my girlfriend. And I will be I when she gets annoyed, I don't I don't fight it. Yeah. I've been dating people before in the past where I'm like, I'm just I don't want to be on my phone all the time. speaker-0: Yeah, nice. speaker-2: So I know there is I'm just gonna say if he's not texting you back. speaker-1: This is so true. It's for speaker-0: I speaker-1: all the listeners who are dating. speaker-0: when this is so embarrassing, but I will say it on hook 'cause I don't care. But I remember when I've I've been with my partner for quite a while, but like when I was dating before meeting him, I get this a lot of like guys not replying and then being like, I'm just I'm never on my phone. I'm just speaker-2: And we think that's true. Yeah. We think that. speaker-1: 100%. Well, you need to think it's true to get through. speaker-0: 'Cause I'd been in a long way to show. So I like, Okay, well it could be true, whatever. and then someone was like, you should read he's just not into you And I it's like a not the film, but like a very short self help book or whatever. It's like, whatever speaker-1: say the film is pretty good as well. speaker-0: I've not seen it, but the it's so short, I was like, I'll ask him through it. And it genuinely said something that did actually change my approach to relationships and I still believe in it. It said, if if he's not texting you back, he's not into you, because you won't even need to question it when someone is into you. Absolutely. And then I met my partner and I never needed to question it. It was always like the next date was set. The text was and it's so crazy, it's so true. speaker-2: The general law is if they if they like you, you'll know. If they don't, you'll be confused. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: If you're confused, they don't like you. there's a fuckery going on. speaker-2: We used to say that in the dance industry too. If you're reading a contract or you've not been paid so or s if you're confused, there's probably a fuckery go. speaker-1: Yeah, I like that. I'm to use

that. speaker-2: I feel for for everyone involved in this, cause cause everyone does this in dating, because you believe the lie you're saying as well, because you're telling yourself the lie. I really did think I was bad with my phone. I really did think I was bad with my phone. It I just couldn't get good enough for you. And I've sorry to those I'm sorry there's a couple of people who I've never texted, but I'm sorry. You know, I've been I've been a shitty guy today. We all we've all been bad with our phones, but I do think it's a hurdle that you will overcome. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. I like that. like that. speaker-2: Anyway, that was that. speaker-1: Sorry. speaker-2: I rem Yeah, no. speaker-0: Ha ha ha ha. speaker-1: Okay, let's go with speaker-2: Don't email me. speaker-0: Ha ha ha! speaker-2: You know who I'm talking about. speaker-1: Let's go with splitting the bill on the first date. Someone who wants to split the bill on the first date. speaker-2: Who's the someone? speaker-1: okay. Well, let's do both. Let's start with the man wants to split the bill on the first date. speaker-2: Okay. I g I I feel like I'm gonna get in trouble for this. Okay. speaker-1: This is my friend. I'm Amber. I'm Red. You're Red. Go, please. speaker-0: Three and both. speaker-2: Okay, can I explain? So obviously, obviously, if you don't have the money, that's by the by, there will be different circumstances. This is not this is not an individual circumstance, this is a general thing. So there will be individuals out there who can't afford I'm talking to you, fella. If you can't afford it right now, don't do it. Don't don't don't split the bill with that lady. You can't afford it. But my girlfriend has really hit the zone for me. And also I have always felt this no money goes into dating for men. No money goes into dating relationships for men. It is just the dinner. The the cost that women have to go through with it from everything that leads to the date and also the cost of being in a relationship afterwards is it's far outweighed. Yeah. And I'm just a bit like, it's a fucking dinner. Yeah. I can it's it's I'm not even doing the like gentlemanly thing. I don't really give a shit about any of that stuff. I'm just like, I know what the cost is. Yeah. And I'm gonna I'm gonna say something else as well. speaker-1: There you go. speaker-2: god, the guy's so good. Maybe it's just because a lot of women are my I've got a lot of friends in my life who are women. Women are fun to be around. Women give like how how often are you on a date and you you know it's like was the date fun or was I fun? That's but that is more often than not. speaker-1: my God, I say that all the time. I'm always like, was it fun or was I just funny? speaker-2: I have learnt to be I have like I don't I think a lot of men, particularly men who are attractive, they're not fun dates. I said this all the time. I'm like, I'm not a stunner, I'm gonna I'm a fun date. I'm I'm gonna be a fun date. Like, but in general, I'm just like, I'm I just think just don't debate this one. I agree it's a it's a it's a double standard whatever just fucking pay for the day, tip well, yeah, and then just move on. Talking about be nice. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Be nice to the waist. And that's it's such a bad sign if you are not nice to waiters, bar people, whatever. But I so the reason I put amber, I agree with all of this, by the way. especially the hidden cost. I think women much of it. Yeah. The only reason I put amber is that when I was single, I would often split the date because I didn't want there to be any expectations. Like you've bought speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: people have no, I know, but speaker-2: Yeah, I agree. I agree. speaker-1: I agree. speaker-0: Of course it's not me, but let me tell you, I'm not the only girl who has received a we should go on another date. No, thank you. Well can I have my money back? I spent you got c speaker-1: Really? For having- speaker-0: No, remember when he was like, I've bought you a glass of wine? And I was like, Well the fuck he held it over a speaker-2: Did you want your money back? speaker-1: He held the money back. speaker-0: everything. speaker-1: Yeah, was, and I said, I didn't realize the seven pound glass of wine came with like access to my body. See? Cause he was, he was like, I'd love to see you again, but I don't want to date you. I just want to sleep with you. Okay. Well, was the vibe he was giving. So I don't want to go on dates and spend money when I don't really see this going anywhere, but I would like to see you again. And I was like, okay, so you just sleep with me. But he was like, but I don't want to spend money. And I was thinking, you bought me one glass of wine. I bought my other glass of wine after that, which was so fine. But I was like, it was seven pounds. Like, I'm like, God forbid you have to take a girl for a wine first before you like. speaker-2: I actually think it says a lot about what men think sex is. Exactly. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-2: I just need access to something. And it's not. I was talking about this recently with my partner about consent. Yeah. About the fact that for a lot she she she articulated this really well that consent became a sort of popularized conversation post-me too. So we were mostly Talking about it in white in the wider, of course we all knew what it was, but we were talking about it a lot. Post me to, you know, the the tea analogy, all of that. And so consent is this conversation about can I have? Yes, I've got the ticket. Great, great, we're doing this. And actually, like the the the the joy of connecting with someone is like that you're I don't I don't want to do gestures with my hands, but that you are connect you are in a consensual moment together. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: And so it's like I don't wanna go on a date and make a woman feel like, feel less about herself just until the the gate is open or whatever. It's like, yeah,

buy that drink. Like have fun with that person. speaker-1: So is my company not enough? You want to, access my body, but God forbid you have to have a conversation with me over a wine first. you should be enjoying that. Cause obviously then that makes it all more enjoyable, right? Cause you get on with someone better. Yeah. speaker-0: thing is is so it would often be that I would be very happy to split when I knew I didn't want to have a second date because I didn't want to have this well I paid for you chat which I found so disgusting. Sure, yeah. I think that people often like well not people, some men, think that you put like with like vending machines, you put money in, you get sex out. And I just didn't want to deal with that anymore. So that's I completely agree with you. Yeah. It's just the how this side speaker-2: No, yeah, that that so speaker-1: That was my answer to why I do it. It's not, it's not the biggest red, but I'm like, it's not a deal breaker. If someone says this, you say, obviously individual circumstance, you know, like you don't know what someone's position is, but if you enjoy, if I've enjoyed the day enough, like obviously. speaker-2: My girlfriend set the tone at the beginning. She like, You're paying for dinners. nice. And I pay for every dinner but she's also been like, If things change, then w yeah then I will then I will also split dinners with you and speaker-1: There is hidden costs, like you've said, the makeup, the time. The taxi. The added element on top of that is I've had dates planned and then it's gotten to the exact time we're meant to be at the restaurant. I'm running late, but it's just up the road or something. And they've said, sorry, I'm not going to make it. And I'm like, I've spent an hour probably getting ready. So not only just the cost of my makeup, my hair, probably like things like I enjoy getting my nails done. Some men would argue, you don't have to do those things. And I'd say, well, I don't know, society also encourages us to look and feel a certain way. speaker-2: Why they're saying that. I don't know. If you didn't turn up with all that done, they'd be like, What's this about? speaker-1: Yeah, you've not put any effort in. So it's like all these extra costs. speaker-2: When did they start this nonsense about you don't have to shut the fuck speaker-1: No, I know. As if women haven't been told for years they need to look in centuries, they need to look and feel a certain way. speaker-0: relationship with someone and then you take ages getting ready and it's like, yeah, 'cause you liked what you saw. But you love the result. speaker-2: True. And I I will say I do complain about it. speaker-0: But one thing to leave it now. speaker-2: We're a bit late, we're a bit late. speaker-1: You're supposed to be going anything I can do to help speaker-2: Exactly. Five minutes later I'm like, Dad, you look good. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Don't rush me. This takes time. speaker-0: Yes, yes. Yeah, poor you go down. Five minutes speaker-1: Throw a wine. Yeah, we're not going to finish these. speaker-0: Maybe we should move on to study. speaker-1: So fine. Any good ones? Okay, we'll do one funny one quickly. Okay. Is it a red flag or a green flag if someone sleeps with socks on? Three, two, one. speaker-0: I wouldn't do it but I don't care about it. you speaker-1: No, I, no, it's, it's more internal for me. I feel suffocated with socks on. So I'm like, how could you be also sleeping socks on? It stresses me out. speaker-2: So if you're sleeping they're in the bed and they've got their socks on. speaker-1: I'd be like, no, it's not coming off. This feels weird. speaker-2: Do you feel suffocated because you're speaker-0: I I couldn't see for them either, but I don't care either way. I'm it's like we're in speaker-1: Even in winter I can't bear to. speaker-2: This is the this is the thing about being a dude. I could fall asleep in the clothes I'm wearing. If it was appropriate and if they would clean, I would do so. speaker-1: Yeah, fair. Do speaker-0: Very speaker-1: want to move to your study? speaker-0: I mean I don't because I'm having so much fun. But this is still another little fun bit, so we're not gonna we're not gonna depress ourselves or anything. Well maybe, I don't know. our next segment, we call it guess again. It's where I have a study that I found and then you and Carla can guess the answer. There might be multiple choice, so it might straight up. speaker-2: God, okay, right. speaker-0: This one is multiple choice, so I think that's quite fun. so Equimundo's State of UK Men 2025 report. Asked men about relationships. What percentage of men said women expect too much in relationships? And I'll give you speaker-1: You said this wasn't gonna depress us. speaker-0: I've got a nice spit afterwards. We'll speaker-2: No, it's speaker-0: end on a high. Yeah. Okay, so A 34%. B forty-seven percent. speaker-1: See? speaker-0: 62% or D seventy-four percent. speaker-1: I'm gonna go B. I think I'm gonna try be optimistic and go B. speaker-2: I'm gonna go C because I'm hoping it's not D. And if it is B, then I'll be happy. It's C. I expected it. speaker-1: 62 %! Wait, how many men were surveyed? I'm so sorry. no, you're fine. That's speaker-0: can't say. speaker-1: so fine. So sorry. I'm curious. fine, Carla. speaker-0: I'm speaker-1: No. speaker-2: surprised that is a that is a a viewpoint that's out there and I think even if people don't think they think it they probably would just be like yeah yeah that doesn't so it doesn't surprise me that it's higher. I'm glad it's not seventy two. Sixty was it sixty two that's yeah? speaker-0: No, I'm saying I I sixty two. It's crazy how with these studies you slowly temper your expectations. speaker-1: Every time you ask a new one, I'm like speaker-2: early six out of ten men hate me? Living speaker-0: So four men left. speaker-2: living a good life, huh? speaker-1: Yeah, how do I find that score? Almost out.

speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: In that in that same research as well, I was getting some of these notes down and this one really made me sad. Forty four percent of men said that they'd given up on romantic relationships and one in four believed nobody would ever fall in love with them. speaker-2: I don't no, sorry. I don't care about it. I'm just like because the thing is, it's like we've all been sad. We've all been lonely. My big thing is, there is so much rhetoric online from men, and I want to be very clear. I I have had problems with mental health. I've talked about it on my on my page before. I've had problems with the the suicide devil. I've had real problems. I am so sympathetic to that, those c those issues. But so much rhetoric online from men is like. Get to the gym, improve this. The one thing they won't work on is is everything up here. And it's like, I I like, what are we talking about? You you you can absolutely go out and meet someone in the world, but like have you worked on yourself? Of the of the 44% of men who say that, like, are they worthy of the attention that they are seeking? I agree with that. And I don't know if they are. I I'm sure a lot of them, I'm sure there are plenty. I I have friends who are very lonely. Who who struggle to find someone and I'm like, damn, they're incredible. Both male and female. There's a friend I'm thinking about right now who like just keeps kind of meeting douchebags. And I'm like, you're incredible. Why is this not working out for you? I'm so aware that that might happen, but there are so many people I'm like, you're a douchebag. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: You're lonely because you're a fucking dickhead. Yeah. And like I meet more dickheads in I I I and I'm I'm confronted with more dickheads online than I am like real true sub stories. Again, I will stress this. There are people that I am like, Damn, this sucks. I'm sure you need a little bit more confidence here, or it sounds like or really heavily medicated, depressed people who are like, I just can't get out. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: All of those stories exist. But let's stop pretending that forty four percent those are s those douchebags are in that list as well. So yeah. There's some of you I don't care about, yeah. speaker-0: Well, that's the thing. It's sad it's sad to read these stats because you don't want to see anyone thinking that they're, unlovable or that they'd given up on things in their life. But I do agree that, a lot of the time it's because they aren't working on themselves. They don't bring qualities to relationship that people would, you know, really be appreciative to have. And then they sort of go, Well, no one wants to be with me And it's like, Well, yes, I understand that because you know, no one would be with me if I didn't work on myself either. So I do I completely understand that perspective. speaker-2: We've all been single. We've all speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. speaker-2: been on we've all been like, God fucking know this is tough. Yeah. speaker-0: Anyway, we'll do it afterwards. Alright, I will give you one more. the same study asked what quality was central to being a man today. And ninety-one percent of men chose one of these. speaker-2: Wow. speaker-0: A providing financially, B physical strength, C being a friend, or D being a father. Ninety speaker-1: What was it? 91 %? speaker-0: one percent of men chose one of those when asked what quality was central to being a man today. speaker-1: B was strength, right? Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna go with that. speaker-2: What was the second one? speaker-0: physical strength. It was A providing financially. speaker-2: I feel like it's speaker-1: Yeah, it's probably going to be that. speaker-2: god it's the fr it's the friend one. speaker-0: Great. speaker-1: that's, wow, no, here's me like being a pessimist expecting it to be bad. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Nice. speaker-1: And then you get surprised. that's good. Yes those 91, you're so right. speaker-2: That's interesting 'cause that's that wouldn't be what I would say. If I I don't know what I would say. I don't actually don't know what. speaker-1: thought it was going to be strength based off of everything we hear online these days. speaker-2: I also thought father would have come before friend. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually speaker-1: Wow! speaker-2: the of all of them, that's the one I was the for speaker-1: Yeah, was like, it's definitely not that one. speaker-0: To include this because it really made me question what I assumed everyone is thinking because so often we do these studies and it's so doom and gloom. And I thought, Wow, that's that's kind speaker-1: I that. speaker-2: I do Yeah, yeah. Great, sweet. Look at it, great. speaker-0: Awesome. They're not impressive. speaker-1: Bye! speaker-0: I can make it nice. Amazing. speaker-1: We like to finish every episode asking our guests what... What is it? speaker-0: Do we speaker-1: I was like, is it big sibling, big brother, big sister? let me start again. We like to finish all our episodes asking our guests what big sibling advice you might have for our listener today. Do you have a piece of big... speaker-2: I'm I am the oldest sibling as well. I I don't know, it's my the big sibling advice I have is that it's probably not as bad as you think. And you probably sh sh I think should look maybe internally before you look externally at at solving whatever it is you think is right in front of you. I think the answers are probably within and they're probably not out there. Is a big thing for me. I you know, I've changed careers multiple times, gone through a quite a lot. even dating. I I was dating someone in twenty twenty-four and when it was over, I was like, I'm done. And I took a year off and now with my partner. And in that year off, I went internal, not external. And I think that's probably the biggest useful advice is that the answers are probably somewhere in all of this and on all of this. They're probably not on the internet. Yeah. They're probably not in the chat room. They're probably not in the Discord group. They're probably they're probably not even in in in the Moolah. They're probably here, you know. I I I My my life is good right now. I make a lot of money off of content creation, more than I made as a dancer. It's it's the foundations of like the building blocks of who I am were built when I had little, when I was alone, all of that. It's all there. Go to therapy. That's my that's my big brother advice. speaker-1: Yes. Go to therapy. Yes. Love that. speaker-2: I'm still in therapy, it's great. speaker-1: it's the bass. speaker-2: It's the best. It literally is the best. Yeah. speaker-1: You have been there for years. speaker-0: Thanks for that. This has been the best. if people want to give you a follow, where can they find you? speaker-2: My name, Jamal Berkmar, TikTok, Instagram. That's it. Maybe one day YouTube. I don't know. I'm very tired. speaker-0: Thanks again for listening. speaker-1: share it with your friends or literally everyone you know and follow us across all social platforms, Hassle Official and Hassle Pod.