บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ ep121: Hyperscale Data Centers + Palestinian Comedian Kokym

--> 00:03:38.270 whether we can do something very different. I think it's 66 00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:41.039 a book that really meets the moment, right? As we're 67 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:45.259 seeing all of this opposition to data centers growing, it's 68 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:47.900 almost wild that my book is being published right as 69 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.740 all this happens. And of course, I would be very 70 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.500 grateful if you did pre-order a copy. It means a 71 00:03:53.539 --> 00:03:56.340 lot as an author to have pre-orders on the book 72 00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:58.479 and is a real kind of sign of confidence in 73 00:03:58.500 --> 00:04:00.520 the book even before it comes out. And of course, 74 00:04:00.539 --> 00:04:02.340 if you wanna do that, there will be a link 75 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.240 in the show notes or you can just go to hyperscalebook.com. 76 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:06.680 But ahead of the book. 77 00:04:06.580 --> 00:04:08.800 Coming out, I was thinking about where the seeds of 78 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.699 the idea for the book actually came from. And to 79 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:14.979 be honest, they were planted back in 2024 when I 80 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.720 was working on this series called Data Vampires to really 81 00:04:18.740 --> 00:04:22.620 dig into what we were already seeing from the construction 82 00:04:22.660 --> 00:04:24.560 of data centers at that point. Of course, you know, 83 00:04:24.579 --> 00:04:28.160 that was earlier in the generative AI moment when all 84 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:30.759 of this stuff was a bit more novel, I guess. 85 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:33.829 And kind of popular attention was just starting to be 86 00:04:33.870 --> 00:04:36.610 paid to data centers. It's not that data centers had 87 00:04:36.670 --> 00:04:39.930 not affected communities in the past, but as these companies 88 00:04:39.970 --> 00:04:42.649 were seeking to build more and more, more communities were 89 00:04:42.709 --> 00:04:45.069 starting to feel it. And of course, many more do today. 90 00:04:45.589 --> 00:04:48.180 as they have continued building for the two years since 91 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:51.750 I made this series. But since the original idea for 92 00:04:51.790 --> 00:04:53.889 this book and kind of how I thought about data 93 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:57.459 centers was really formed as I put together this series, 94 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.279 I figured it would be a good time to revisit it, 95 00:05:00.579 --> 00:05:02.459 not just because the book is coming out, but also 96 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:05.939 because the public view on data centers has evolved so 97 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.720 much since it was made. And I think the series really, 98 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.139 even though it often refers to figures from 2024, is 99 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:15.139 still incredibly current to the moment. And I think some 100 00:05:15.189 --> 00:05:17.310 of you

who maybe didn't listen to it at the time, 101 00:05:17.389 --> 00:05:19.579 or maybe did, but kind of forgot about it, might 102 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:23.250 still take some important things away from this series. And, 103 00:05:23.269 --> 00:05:25.009 you know, maybe it will set you up to want 104 00:05:25.050 --> 00:05:27.089 to grab the book and to dig in even more 105 00:05:27.529 --> 00:05:29.790 as well. So through this series, there might be some 106 00:05:29.850 --> 00:05:32.009 small updates to what we published in 2024, but it's 107 00:05:32.069 --> 00:05:35.480 going to be nothing, you know, too deep, too major. 108 00:05:36.009 --> 00:05:37.680 Before we get into it, I do want to say 109 00:05:37.699 --> 00:05:41.180 the city of the Dalles in Oregon, you will notice 110 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.000 I pronounce as the dolls. And it was kind of 111 00:05:45.019 --> 00:05:48.019 pointed out to me afterward that I had unfortunately mispronounced 112 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:51.860 the city's name. So apologies for that in advance. But 113 00:05:51.899 --> 00:05:54.480 this first episode really digs into, you know, what a 114 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:57.189 data center is. How we got to this moment where 115 00:05:57.230 --> 00:05:59.589 so many are being built out and how the cloud 116 00:05:59.649 --> 00:06:03.259 really played an important part in this kind of centralized 117 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:07.259 computation that has now become the hyperscale data centers of 118 00:06:07.300 --> 00:06:11.500 the present. And how understanding that is essential for basically 119 00:06:11.540 --> 00:06:14.269 what we're seeing today and what has been birthed out 120 00:06:14.310 --> 00:06:16.589 of it. And maybe I would mention as well, one 121 00:06:16.629 --> 00:06:18.769 of the people I speak to for this episode is 122 00:06:18.810 --> 00:06:21.810 Cecilia Rickap. And if you're a regular listener of the show, 123 00:06:21.970 --> 00:06:23.790 you will have noticed that she has a new book 124 00:06:23.860 --> 00:06:26.879 out recently as well called The Rulers, Looking at the 125 00:06:26.939 --> 00:06:29.699 Power of These Cloud Giants. So of course, you can 126 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.199 go back and listen to that episode as well. So 127 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:35.899 sorry for the long introduction on this first episode. I 128 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:40.019 hope that you will enjoy revisiting Data Vampires through this month. 129 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:42.410 And of course, stay tuned to what I have planned 130 00:06:42.449 --> 00:06:44.970 in October, where we'll be digging in even more on 131 00:06:45.009 --> 00:06:47.089 data centers to talk to people about what is going 132 00:06:47.250 --> 00:06:50.329 on in different parts of the world where it's not 133 00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:52.610 just the United States that we're seeing this pushback, but 134 00:06:52.649 --> 00:06:55.389 in so many different regions and countries. If you do 135 00:06:55.410 --> 00:06:58.829 want to pick up Hyperscale, my new book, again, hyperscalebook.com, 136 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:00.439 or you can find the link in the show notes. 137 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.360 As always, if you want to support Tech Won't Save Us, 138 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:04.939 the work that I do on this, and of course, 139 00:07:04.980 --> 00:07:08.060 get access to full-length interviews with the people who I 140 00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:11.170 interviewed for this series, you can support the show on patreon.com 141 00:07:11.269 --> 00:07:15.550 slash techwontsaveus. So enjoy Data Vampires, enjoy learning more about 142 00:07:15.610 --> 00:07:17.529 how we got to the point we are today with 143 00:07:17.589 --> 00:07:21.240 data centers, and stick around for future weeks where you 144 00:07:21.250 --> 00:07:24.100 can hear the rest of these episodes. Thank you so much. 145 00:07:25.180 --> 00:07:28.019 In 2004, a young guy named Chris Saka turned up 146 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:31.009 in the Dalles, Oregon. The city had long been sustained 147 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:34.389 by the aluminum industry, but its 16,000 residents were wondering 148 00:07:34.689 --> 00:07:37.790 what was next after the local smelter's furnaces had gone cold. 149 00:07:38.189 --> 00:07:41.209 Would they become yet another community across the United States 150 00:07:41.269 --> 00:07:44.120 to lose its primary industry and the tax revenue that 151 00:07:44.149 --> 00:07:47.050 accompanied it? Or would they find something else to replace it? 152 00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:50.720 Luckily for them, SACA came with a possible answer. By 153 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:53.800 that time, the internet had been commercialized and privatized for 154 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.519 nearly a decade. The boom and bust of the dot-com 155 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:59.170 bubble was over, and the companies that survived the crash 156 00:07:59.269 --> 00:08:02.329 were solidifying their gains and gearing up for another wave 157 00:08:02.389 --> 00:08:05.910 of growth. SACA claimed to represent a company called Design 158 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:09.439 LLC that was proposing to spend hundreds of millions of 159 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.439 dollars to establish a presence in the DALs, build its 160 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.879 own facility, and create hundreds of permanent jobs. The facility 161 00:08:15.939 --> 00:08:18.560 it was proposing to build was a data center, but 162 00:08:18.579 --> 00:08:21.110 there was a catch. It wasn't a coincidence that this 163 00:08:21.189 --> 00:08:24.819 mysterious company was eyeing Oregon for its data center project. Sure, 164 00:08:24.939 --> 00:08:27.540 it was close to the internet company hubs, the Bay Area, 165 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:31.379 and Seattle, but it also had particular financial advantages. This 166 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:34.360 is how the Oregonian business journalist Mike Rogoway put it 167 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:37.450 when

speaking to the Berkeley Technology Law Journal podcast. 168 00:08:37.970 --> 00:08:40.549 Back in the 1980s, Oregon, like a lot of other states, 169 00:08:40.629 --> 00:08:43.029 created what they called an enterprise zone program. It's a 170 00:08:43.409 --> 00:08:48.649 set of property tax incentives for the idea with small manufacturers. 171 00:08:48.730 --> 00:08:52.850 And you put them in distressed communities, rural areas. small 172 00:08:52.889 --> 00:08:57.610 towns and try to attract manufacturers by giving them a 173 00:08:58.629 --> 00:09:02.529 temporary exemption on their property taxes. But lawmakers didn't put 174 00:09:02.590 --> 00:09:06.370 any cap on the size of those tax breaks. So 175 00:09:06.429 --> 00:09:09.889 when the data centers industry emerged two decades later, they 176 00:09:09.909 --> 00:09:13.279 looked up at Oregon and said, wait a minute, we 177 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.639 can get enormous tax breaks. Those property tax exemptions, as 178 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:19.299 I say, they save tens or hundreds of millions of 179 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:22.279 dollars a year or over the life of the exemption, billions. 180 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.559 Of dollars for these really large projects. 181 00:09:25.220 --> 00:09:27.539 No wonder companies were looking to Oregon. But for the 182 00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:30.490 dolls to win the industry it so desperately wanted, Design 183 00:09:30.590 --> 00:09:33.929 LLC had a series of demands. It wanted a connection 184 00:09:34.009 --> 00:09:37.230 to a transatlantic fiber optic cable, enough water and energy 185 00:09:37.269 --> 00:09:40.750 to meet its needs, and complete secrecy over its business operations. 186 00:09:41.110 --> 00:09:43.330 But on top of all of that, it wanted a 187 00:09:43.350 --> 00:09:45.850 15-year property tax break that had to go all the 188 00:09:45.889 --> 00:09:49.139 way to the state governor for approval. They were hefty demands, 189 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:52.220 but the dolls didn't have many options, so Saka and 190 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.879 the company he claimed to represent got what they wanted. 191 00:09:55.429 --> 00:09:58.559 When the data center finally opened in 2006, the mask 192 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:02.000 came off Design LLC. The company behind the facility was 193 00:10:02.059 --> 00:10:05.500 revealed to have a much more familiar name, Google. For 194 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:08.389 years after, city officials still didn't want to publicly use 195 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:11.350 the name because of the confidentiality agreements they'd had to 196 00:10:11.409 --> 00:10:14.409 sign years earlier. The dolls became the site of Google's 197 00:10:14.450 --> 00:10:18.429 first company-owned data center. With thousands of servers crammed inside 198 00:10:18.450 --> 00:10:21.029 a building the size of two football fields, the company 199 00:10:21.049 --> 00:10:23.629 was growing and it needed all that infrastructure to power 200 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:26.940 its dominant search engine and its ambitions for future expansion. 201 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:29.620 But Google's data center in the dolls was just one 202 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.580 part of a larger shift playing out in the infrastructure 203 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:52.590 powering the internet in that moment. This is Data Vampires, 204 00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:55.230 a special four-part series from Tech Won't Save Us assembled 205 00:10:55.269 --> 00:10:58.139 by me, Paris Marks. In the early days of the internet, 206 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:00.259 it was easy to believe that a bit more technology 207 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.220 and connectivity would make things better. There were tangible benefits 208 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.899 to this new infrastructure and what was happening on the web. 209 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:08.659 But as it was commercialized and as the expectation of 210 00:11:08.750 --> 00:11:11.809 massive returns became cemented as part of the tech model, 211 00:11:12.129 --> 00:11:15.669 the widespread benefits have been consistently eroded and reduce the 212 00:11:15.690 --> 00:11:18.309 promises that never arrive, just so a small number of 213 00:11:18.370 --> 00:11:21.600 billionaires can make out like bandits. Today, there are few 214 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.919 fights more central to deciding our technological future and who 215 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.740 benefits from it than the one brewing over data centers 216 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:30.500 around the world. Over the course of this series, we'll 217 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:32.950 learn more about data centers and how they really work. 218 00:11:33.250 --> 00:11:36.110 We'll hear about the impacts they're having in communities around 219 00:11:36.129 --> 00:11:38.909 the world and how people are fighting back. We'll dig 220 00:11:38.970 --> 00:11:42.129 into how generative AI is an accelerant on this fire. 221 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:44.940 and what's driving these powerful people in the tech industry 222 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:47.460 to try to voice this vision of the future on us, 223 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.019 regardless of whether we want it or whether it will 224 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.919 even make the lives of most people any better. This 225 00:11:52.970 --> 00:11:55.850 series was made possible by our supporters over on Patreon, 226 00:11:56.149 --> 00:11:58.049 and if you learned something from it, I'd ask you 227 00:11:58.110 --> 00:12:01.850 to consider joining them at patreon.com slash techwontsaveus, so we 228 00:12:01.889 --> 00:12:05.149 can keep doing this important work. Plus, enjoy premium, full-length 229 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.000 interviews with the experts I spoke to for the series, 230 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:10.340 and I've put them together in a special collection whose 231 00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:12.580 link you can find in the show notes. Become a 232 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:17.610 supporter at

patreon.com slash techwon'tsaveustoday. So, with that said, let's 233 00:12:17.659 --> 00:12:20.450 learn about these data vampires, and by the end, maybe 234 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:22.909 we'll be closer to driving a stake through their hearts. 235 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.330 So what is a data center anyway? They're not necessarily 236 00:12:30.389 --> 00:12:32.789 the easiest things to locate, and they're certainly not all 237 00:12:32.830 --> 00:12:35.110 the same. If you pull up Google Maps and search 238 00:12:35.129 --> 00:12:37.490 for data centers in your city, you might be surprised 239 00:12:37.509 --> 00:12:40.250 to find a bunch dotted around downtown cores and urban 240 00:12:40.289 --> 00:12:43.809 centers in places you never expected. When I searched in Montreal, 241 00:12:43.850 --> 00:12:46.460 there were facilities in nearby office buildings I thought looked 242 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:49.240 practically abandoned, and even one that seemed to be in 243 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:50.620 the same building as a hotel. 244 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:51.639 Our data is. 245 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.590 Stored and processed all over the place. but increasingly it's 246 00:12:54.629 --> 00:12:57.950 happening in large centralized infrastructures controlled by some of the 247 00:12:57.990 --> 00:13:00.570 most powerful tech companies in the world. To get a 248 00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:02.870 better picture of what a data center is, I reached 249 00:13:02.909 --> 00:13:05.509 out to an expert. Dwayne Monroe has been working in 250 00:13:05.549 --> 00:13:08.259 and around data centers for over two decades. He's currently 251 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.129 a senior cloud consultant. Here's how he explained it. 252 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.659 Data centers should be thought of as warehouses filled with 253 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.919 servers and also filled with the equipment that supports the 254 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:23.039 creation of platforms. So in the data centers, I've, been 255 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:27.120 in in my career, there would be hundreds, sometimes thousands 256 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:31.950 of these devices wired up, wired into the corporate network, 257 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:36.029 and then wired via connections to, say, WorldCom or AT 258 00:13:36.029 --> 00:13:40.070 & T to the public internet. And then networking equipment 259 00:13:40.210 --> 00:13:42.870 and switches and hubs and so forth, and lots of 260 00:13:42.950 --> 00:13:46.129 cables to connect things together. You'll just see row after 261 00:13:46.210 --> 00:13:49.809 row of computers. And they like to take pictures of 262 00:13:49.830 --> 00:13:52.000 them with the lights down, so it looks very science fiction-y. 263 00:13:52.539 --> 00:13:53.929 But if you turn the lights up, what you see 264 00:13:53.950 --> 00:13:58.350 are like just big computers racked together in racks, all 265 00:13:58.870 --> 00:14:01.529 assembled together. And in a good data center, it'll look 266 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:02.090 nice and neat. 267 00:14:03.309 --> 00:14:06.110 I often refer to data centers as server warehouses. So 268 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:07.909 I was happy to hear Duane agree with me on 269 00:14:07.929 --> 00:14:11.409 that description. Instead of the large warehouses where Amazon stores 270 00:14:11.509 --> 00:14:14.330 anything and everything you could possibly think of buying, just 271 00:14:14.370 --> 00:14:16.929 swap all those shelves of goods out for computer servers 272 00:14:16.970 --> 00:14:19.649 and hard drives, and you've got a hyperscale data center. 273 00:14:20.090 --> 00:14:22.769 Those facilities store vast amounts of data and provide the 274 00:14:22.809 --> 00:14:26.269 computation for virtually anything you might interact with on the web. 275 00:14:26.690 --> 00:14:29.210 Streaming a video on Netflix, doing a Google search, or 276 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:33.049 putting a prompt into ChatGBT may seem like an immaterial thing, 277 00:14:33.370 --> 00:14:36.809 but behind it all is a ton of hardware, energy, water, 278 00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:40.090 mineral resources, and the labor that makes it all work, 279 00:14:40.570 --> 00:14:44.070 often in mere milliseconds. There's something pretty incredible about it, 280 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:46.840 but how did it get this way? Data centers in 281 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.220 some form have been around for ages, since the early 282 00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:52.279 days of computation. Companies used to have to build their 283 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.879 own facilities to manage all the information they held about 284 00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:57.370 their business and their customers. And even to this day, 285 00:14:57.450 --> 00:15:00.549 many still do. But these days, there's an alternative, one 286 00:15:00.570 --> 00:15:03.190 we often call the cloud. They're data centers that are 287 00:15:03.289 --> 00:15:06.210 so big, they're referred to as hyperscale because of, well, 288 00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:09.629 the scale they operate on. As demands for computation grow, 289 00:15:09.970 --> 00:15:11.529 they're the ones that are taking over. 290 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:14.870 One of the first data centers I worked in a 291 00:15:14.889 --> 00:15:18.309 number of years ago was for a pharmaceutical firm. Now, 292 00:15:18.549 --> 00:15:20.509 by the standards of most corpos, that would. 293 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:21.230 Be quite large. 294 00:15:21.250 --> 00:15:26.110 There were, I believe, something like 2,000. 295 00:15:25.289 --> 00:15:26.370 Discrete computers there. 296 00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:29.690 Hygroscale is much more. 297 00:15:30.049 --> 00:15:32.110 There's a highlight from a new episode of Tech Won't 298 00:15:32.129 --> 00:15:38.360 Save Us. Find it wherever you get your podcasts, at techwontsave.us 299 00:15:38.899 --> 00:15:45.539 and at harbingermedianetwork.com. You listen to Harbinger Showcase on your 300 00:15:45.580 -->

00:15:49.110 local campus and community radio station. I'm Harbinger director Andre 301 00:15:49.129 --> 00:15:50.190 Goulet in Montreal. 302 00:15:51.149 --> 00:15:51.600 Coming up next. 303 00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:58.210 Broadcasting since September 2020, Habib Di Please features activist and 304 00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:02.259 academic Nashmalina Khan exploring politics, pop culture, and beyond from 305 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.159 an internationalist and Canadian perspective. On this excerpt from a 306 00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:08.120 new episode, she sits down with Palestinian pop artist Kokum 307 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:11.620 for a conversation about music, liberation, language, and what it 308 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.049 means to make joyful Palestinian art. Now, here's the show. 309 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:25.090 And she doesn't want a seal, nor does she want 310 00:16:25.230 --> 00:16:29.309 a seal. She wants a Palestinian flag to be thrown 311 00:16:29.389 --> 00:16:32.460 at the courts. She doesn't want a gift, nor does 312 00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:36.919 she want a gift. She wants a Palestinian flag to 313 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:37.919 be thrown. 314 00:16:37.659 --> 00:16:38.320 At the prison. 315 00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:42.460 And I don't want a flag, nor do I want 316 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:46.779 a flag. I want a Palestinian flag to be thrown 317 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:47.539 at the prison. 318 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:50.200 I don't want it. 319 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.980 To melt or melt in the air I want Palestine 320 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.220 to stop being trapped in the ground And she doesn't 321 00:16:57.259 --> 00:17:01.279 want gold or gold in the air She wants a 322 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:05.380 Palestinian flag to be lifted from the prison of the 323 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:10.849 rebels She doesn't want a symbol 324 00:17:10.930 --> 00:17:14.210 325 00:17:14.250 --> 00:17:17.789 326 00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:22.690 327 00:17:22.769 --> 00:17:25.410 328 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:31.259 329 00:17:31.339 --> 00:17:35.599 330 00:17:35.619 --> 00:17:40.039 I want 331 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:43.039 to liberate the country from the sea. 332 00:17:42.980 --> 00:17:44.400 To the sea. 333 00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:48.589 I want to liberate the country from the sea to 334 00:17:48.730 --> 00:17:48.940 the sea. 335 00:18:16.750 --> 00:18:17.630 Thank you so much. 336 00:18:18.049 --> 00:18:19.269 You're welcome. 337 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.680 Hi, everyone. Today we're in the studio for a really 338 00:18:21.740 --> 00:18:27.240 special collaboration between Havipti Please, CKUT's Under the Olive Tree, 339 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.720 the longest running community radio show on Palestine, and CUTV. 340 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:34.859 It feels very special and meaningful. to gather here in 341 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:38.859 Montreal to talk about Palestinian music, joy, memory, humor, and 342 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:44.630 liberation with an artist whose work moves across borders. Welcome 343 00:18:44.650 --> 00:18:45.250 to the show. 344 00:18:45.269 --> 00:18:47.930 Thank you for having me. 345 00:18:49.130 --> 00:18:51.170 We're happy to have you here in Montreal today. 346 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:52.170 Me too. 347 00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:54.529 It's been a pleasure since I came here. 348 00:18:55.539 --> 00:18:58.420 And we just heard one of your most popular songs, 349 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:01.299 Zafat At-Tahrir. Can you tell us a bit more about 350 00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:04.230 that song and the meaning and the specialness of it? 351 00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:11.779 Well, it's like an anthem for Palestinian liberation. I've heard 352 00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:14.829 it for the first time in a wedding in 2017 353 00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:19.970 in Istanbul in a boat. And then my friend recorded it. 354 00:19:20.109 --> 00:19:22.710 It wasn't a song. We were just chanting it to 355 00:19:23.390 --> 00:19:27.180 the groom. In the wedding, because the electricity went out, 356 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.700 we had no DJ. And I was the DJ, so 357 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:36.559 we didn't have electricity to run the songs. So we 358 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:39.910 started doing this anthem, and I was playing the drum. 359 00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:46.809 And one guy started singing the words that he wrote. 360 00:19:48.049 --> 00:19:54.220 His name is Mohammed. From that moment on, my friend 361 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.240 recorded it and uploaded it to SoundCloud. And it just 362 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:02.500 started to go a bit viral through time with years. 363 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.319 And then in 2021, I was in a protest in 364 00:20:06.339 --> 00:20:10.220 Sheikh Jarrah. And people started chanting that chant. I was like, 365 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:11.660 hold on a second. 366 00:20:12.710 --> 00:20:13.450 I'm part of that. 367 00:20:13.470 --> 00:20:17.609 And it turns out they also found it on SoundCloud, 368 00:20:17.650 --> 00:20:20.869 the same recording. And then I thought, okay, I should 369 00:20:20.970 --> 00:20:24.759 actually do something with it. Then I went home and 370 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.059 I did record it in like four hours and I 371 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:32.700 added lyrics and I changed the like pronouns of the 372 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.019 anthem it was more about uh like i don't want 373 00:20:37.059 --> 00:20:39.700 that so i made it like she doesn't want that 374 00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:42.859 because she wants like to have a wedding and then 375 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.700 it developed in the months months after that where my 376 00:20:46.809 --> 00:20:50.230 other friend jumped in and we added more lyrics to 377 00:20:50.309 --> 00:20:53.589 it and it became a full song and yeah i 378 00:20:53.630 --> 00:20:55.410 released it and everything. 379 00:20:55.130 --> 00:20:59.869

Changed amazing yeah And speaking of everything changing, can you 380 00:20:59.910 --> 00:21:02.279 introduce yourself? Your name is Karam, but who is Kokim? 381 00:21:02.730 --> 00:21:07.940 Well, my name is Karam Khalaf. Kokim is my, now 382 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:09.759 it's my stage name, but it used to be my 383 00:21:09.819 --> 00:21:14.559 nickname in high school. And I've been making music for 384 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.420 a long, long time, like since I was 11 or something. 385 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.480 And then at school, when I started releasing the music, 386 00:21:21.619 --> 00:21:24.740 I just named myself after my nickname. So The kids 387 00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:29.349 at school can find me easier. And yeah, that's what happened. 388 00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:34.769 Then it became what it is now. I'm a Palestinian 389 00:21:35.069 --> 00:21:40.269 pop artist and I sing in my dialect with pop tones. 390 00:21:41.869 --> 00:21:47.710 And yeah, I try to just share the joyful side 391 00:21:47.730 --> 00:21:55.539 of Palestinian culture in me away from the the stereotypical 392 00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:58.599 image of Palestinians in Palestinian music. 393 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:02.089 Thank you so much. And the song we just heard, 394 00:22:02.589 --> 00:22:05.849 like you mentioned, Zafat al-Tahrir, it's one of your most well-known. 395 00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:10.529 And usually, Zafat is usually a wedding or a graduation, 396 00:22:10.569 --> 00:22:12.869 a celebratory song. And you told us this backstory, but 397 00:22:13.250 --> 00:22:15.690 I want to ask you more about using it as 398 00:22:15.710 --> 00:22:18.170 a song about liberation. 399 00:22:19.430 --> 00:22:22.660 Well, because liberation is kind of like a wedding, you know? 400 00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:27.990 you jump from, uh, like a state to another, like 401 00:22:28.049 --> 00:22:33.660 status to another when you're, uh, getting married. And when 402 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.579 you are liberating your homeland, you also jump from like 403 00:22:36.619 --> 00:22:43.839 an occupied nation to a fully sovereign nation. And I 404 00:22:43.859 --> 00:22:46.569 think that's worth a celebration as much as a wedding. 405 00:22:48.549 --> 00:22:50.430 And also wedding is like joyful, you know? 406 00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:50.930 Yeah. 407 00:22:51.230 --> 00:22:56.480 It's like the celebration of, uh, The outcome of like 408 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:01.720 a relationship or the outcome of, you know, like sometimes 409 00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:04.500 it's a battle to make this work. 410 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.559 And it works. 411 00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:10.400 So people celebrate that. And I think liberation or the day, inshallah, 412 00:23:10.779 --> 00:23:16.450 that we will be liberated should be as celebrated as 413 00:23:16.470 --> 00:23:18.450 a battle, you know. 414 00:23:18.789 --> 00:23:18.990 Yeah. 415 00:23:19.150 --> 00:23:19.650 Battle wins. 416 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:20.160 Yeah. 417 00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:24.119 And I really appreciate you sharing all these anecdotes with us. 418 00:23:24.259 --> 00:23:27.920 And in the song specifically, you named three prisons. And 419 00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:31.039 right now, with so many campaigns around Palestinian prisoners, prison 420 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.980 is one of the compasses of Palestinian liberation. It's one 421 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.660 of the biggest asks in many campaigners asks. I know 422 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:38.940 in Montreal, it's a huge ask. There's a big prisoner 423 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.859 campaign that just got launched by Palestinian youth movement. I 424 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:43.740 want to ask you more about naming those prisons in 425 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:44.259 this song. 426 00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:47.700 Yeah, I mean, prisons, especially the ones I mentioned in 427 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:51.569 the song, are part of my childhood because my uncle 428 00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:57.549 was imprisoned in one of those things, Shotta. And we 429 00:23:57.970 --> 00:24:03.599 literally spent our 15 years of my upbringing was about that, 430 00:24:04.259 --> 00:24:09.859 like about that prison, going like there, passing by it, 431 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.289 thinking we have people here. And then the day he 432 00:24:13.349 --> 00:24:19.339 was released, we also went there and we were very 433 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:26.940 much involved in this topic. Some of my family members 434 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:32.349 were also activists in the movement for the liberation of 435 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:39.490 the prisoners or hostages. And yeah, mentioning it in the 436 00:24:39.509 --> 00:24:43.789 song just makes it more close to home. And yeah, 437 00:24:43.849 --> 00:24:47.380 I always want my songs to represent what I think 438 00:24:47.490 --> 00:24:49.740 or who I am. So that also was one of 439 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:50.740 the parts. 440 00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:54.400 And can I ask you about the day that you 441 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:56.799 went when your uncle was released from prison? What was 442 00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.160 that like? The images you saw, the sounds you heard, 443 00:24:59.400 --> 00:24:59.960 that feeling? 444 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:05.519 Literally, it's like Zephyr, like the celebration. It was like 445 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:08.140 a wedding, and also we did kind of a wedding 446 00:25:08.259 --> 00:25:10.170 in a wedding hall for him. 447 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:10.859 Of course, yeah. 448 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:16.470 Yeah, it was very touching, very surreal, because once they 449 00:25:16.509 --> 00:25:19.930 go in, it's like death. You just hear about them, 450 00:25:20.670 --> 00:25:23.650 and you can't visit them if you're not their son. 451 00:25:24.089 --> 00:25:30.480 Sometimes even the close family members can't visit them. So 452 00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:33.720 for me, it was someone coming

back from death. It 453 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:40.200 was so real, but also just gave me an insight 454 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:46.630 about how many people are facing this in Palestinian society 455 00:25:46.690 --> 00:25:48.750 because everyone knows someone. 456 00:25:49.109 --> 00:25:49.309 Yes. 457 00:25:49.490 --> 00:25:50.970 That is inside, especially now. 458 00:25:52.009 --> 00:25:52.269 Yeah. 459 00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:55.500 So, yeah, I think it's also my duty to shed 460 00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:56.599 the light on that. 461 00:25:57.559 --> 00:25:59.400 Thank you so much. And I want to invite you 462 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.319 to share another song with us and more of yourself 463 00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:02.660 with our audience so generously. 464 00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:03.839 Okay. 465 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:04.559 Which one? 466 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:05.339 Oh. 467 00:26:06.579 --> 00:26:07.230 No, I know which one. 468 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:08.000 I'm just joking. 469 00:26:08.019 --> 00:26:10.279 No, you're so funny. And can you introduce the song 470 00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:12.900 before you sing it to us and give us that? 471 00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.259 This is. 472 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.680 Which means, if you're going to Jerusalem. And it's one 473 00:26:18.700 --> 00:26:21.690 of my favorite songs I've ever written and done. It's 474 00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:28.650 sampled from a folklore song. Just two lines. But it 475 00:26:28.730 --> 00:26:34.190 talks about nostalgia and coming home after... so long being 476 00:26:35.009 --> 00:26:39.390 away from home and or not able to go home 477 00:26:39.430 --> 00:26:43.680 and just telling anybody that is going home to take 478 00:26:43.700 --> 00:26:47.539 to take to take them with you or just bring 479 00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:53.430 something for you to remember so thank you yeah. 480 00:26:53.349 --> 00:26:55.029 You're gonna go amazing. 481 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:13.759 Thank you. 482 00:27:20.910 --> 00:27:28.430 Ya raihina al kudis khuduni Maakum habibi zaiya kelbi wana 483 00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:33.660 kelbi Bi huwakum ruku min babi al amun Balchul ki 484 00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:40.759 tu liya mitkhabbi banhali biyut awan gilli Yehuan zilli a 485 00:27:40.819 --> 00:27:46.609 khan al zat Shuflin chanhu bil bat Kullu innu wallahi 486 00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:51.799 baadu fi bani I've been away for years, I've been 487 00:27:51.819 --> 00:27:55.900 walking from Haifa to Jenin. I've been around all of Palestine, 488 00:27:56.099 --> 00:27:58.000 and I've been looking. 489 00:27:58.900 --> 00:27:59.420 For Ali. 490 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:01.200 The last time I saw him, I sang to him 491 00:28:01.349 --> 00:28:01.890 on the street. 492 00:28:01.970 --> 00:28:04.309 How many times did I go to Badr and I 493 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:06.009 forgot my country? For the first. 494 00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:09.730 Time in a while, I'm going down to the country. 495 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:17.359 I went all the way back to the past Oh. 496 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.799 Go, oh, we're going to. 497 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:23.720 The holy place Take me with you, my love My 498 00:28:23.769 --> 00:28:27.369 heart is lost and I'm a dog I love you, go. 499 00:28:27.190 --> 00:28:31.869 Away from the door of the tower I don't want. 500 00:28:31.349 --> 00:28:34.829 You to tell me I'm hiding between these houses or 501 00:28:34.930 --> 00:28:37.750 at my place Oh, I saw him with the sultan's 502 00:28:37.769 --> 00:28:41.720 khan He's walking and he's a robber On the heart 503 00:28:41.900 --> 00:28:44.000 of my heart that is in love with Ali. 504 00:28:44.019 --> 00:28:46.700 My eyes are on you like a knife. 505 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:47.900 His gaze is like a bullet. 506 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:50.230 I will hide my heart so that it stays in 507 00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:57.410 my mind. At the end of the night, I looked 508 00:28:57.430 --> 00:29:01.180 up at the top of the mountain Instead. 509 00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:03.400 Of the herbs, I planted the colors on the. 510 00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:06.049 Top of the mountain From Jaffa, I brought him a 511 00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:11.450 kilo of poulticals And if you're hungry, come down to 512 00:29:11.470 --> 00:29:16.079 Abu Shukri Oh Rayah, oh Rayahine Take me with you, 513 00:29:16.099 --> 00:29:20.380 my love My heart is lost and my heart is 514 00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:23.299 in your hands Get out of the door of the house, 515 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.900 even the T2 Why are you hiding between these houses 516 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:29.670 or in my house? What is it? 517 00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:32.069 We are going to the church Take. 518 00:29:31.950 --> 00:29:35.630 Me with you, my love My heart is lost and 519 00:29:35.970 --> 00:29:41.940 my heart is in your hands leave the door of 520 00:29:42.019 --> 00:29:47.039 the castle and start the book For me to. 521 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.940 Hide between these houses. 522 00:29:59.779 --> 00:30:12.579 There's a highlight from a recent episode of Habibti Please. 523 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.460 Find new episodes at habibtiplease.substack.com or wherever you get your 524 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.710 podcasts and at harbingermedianetwork.com. You're listening to Harbinger Showcase on 525 00:30:20.750 --> 00:30:24.349 your local campus and community radio station. Coming up next. 526 00:30:25.690 --> 00:30:29.730 Launching in October 2024, news criticism podcast The North State 527 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.900 features journalist Scott Martin punching through the noise biweekly and 528 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:36.539 tackling how news media frames issues, omits information, and pushes 529 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.880 the status quo. Look on this recent episode featuring a 530 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:42.299 conversation with press progress reporter Eric Wickham to unpack how 531 00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:46.789 Ontario Premier Doug Ford deftly

wields anti-American posturing to paper 532 00:30:46.869 --> 00:30:49.410 over his policies. Now, here's Scott. 533 00:30:50.029 --> 00:30:52.109 The North State is a proud member of the Harbinger 534 00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:07.809 Media Network. Welcome to The North State, the podcast that 535 00:31:07.829 --> 00:31:10.150 punches through the noise of the Canadian news media ecosystem. 536 00:31:10.609 --> 00:31:11.910 I'm your host, Scott Martin. 537 00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:15.589 Ontario Premier Doug Ford is no stranger to playing politics 538 00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:18.190 to his advantage. Despite the fact that he was caught 539 00:31:18.230 --> 00:31:20.720 on mic saying he was ecstatic when Donald Trump was 540 00:31:20.779 --> 00:31:24.259 elected US president, the biggest boosts in his government's image 541 00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:27.059 has been from public feuds with Trump and the US. 542 00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:31.180 While everyone gets super weird about the US government renaming 543 00:31:31.220 --> 00:31:33.589 Lake Ontario to some stupid bulls * * t with 544 00:31:33.650 --> 00:31:36.009 Google Maps following suit, and we'll certainly talk about that 545 00:31:36.589 --> 00:31:40.769 if on sufferance, Ford has been drumming the Ontario beat. 546 00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:43.019 But while this has been what the news media has. 547 00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:46.440 Covered nonstop over the past now almost two weeks, Ford's 548 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:50.200 damaging policies continue to wreak havoc. Joining me this week 549 00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:53.039 to discuss Ford's political moment and why he succeeded so 550 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:56.880 long with a majority government in Ontario is Ontario reporter 551 00:31:56.920 --> 00:31:58.349 for Press Progress, Eric Wickham. 552 00:31:58.420 --> 00:32:01.049 Eric, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me, Scott. 553 00:32:01.430 --> 00:32:04.109 I cannot wait to yell on this podcast. 554 00:32:04.450 --> 00:32:06.769 It's the one place that you can and I won't 555 00:32:06.809 --> 00:32:09.890 yell at you on air. But before we begin, a 556 00:32:10.029 --> 00:32:11.910 quick reminder to listeners to support the show by heading 557 00:32:11.930 --> 00:32:14.170 to readthecatch.ca to sign up for a free or paid 558 00:32:14.210 --> 00:32:17.730 membership and by rating us on your podcast app of choice. Now, Eric, 559 00:32:18.130 --> 00:32:20.730 it seems like just yesterday that all the headlines about 560 00:32:20.789 --> 00:32:25.130 Ford were about his Billy Bishop expansion, attacks on transparency 561 00:32:25.150 --> 00:32:29.150 with FOI changes. The Progressive Conservative Party had staffers fly 562 00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:31.880 to Jamaica to spy on then-liberal leader Bonnie Crombie. 563 00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:33.680 Ford denies that he knew about this. 564 00:32:34.490 --> 00:32:37.380 What does this particular pivot say to you as someone 565 00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:40.240 who covers not just Ford, but the Ontario government and 566 00:32:40.539 --> 00:32:43.720 the material effects on Ontarians on a regular basis? 567 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.220 Well, I don't know. So I think the first thing 568 00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:49.519 we have to remember with Doug Ford is he ran 569 00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:52.190 this election early. I mean, I wouldn't want to speculate, 570 00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:56.490 but I think possibly to take advantage of the fact 571 00:32:56.529 --> 00:32:58.390 that there was a heavy anti-Trump sentiment. 572 00:32:58.450 --> 00:33:00.809 Yes, the signs were all there that that was a 573 00:33:00.890 --> 00:33:03.450 big factor, but, you know, nothing explicitly confirmed. 574 00:33:03.670 --> 00:33:04.059 Right, so. 575 00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:09.299 Ford ended his second term a year early when they 576 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:12.359 went to the polls, and he benefited from talking big 577 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.809 about how he was going to fight for Ontario, talking 578 00:33:14.849 --> 00:33:19.730 about cutting power to the places that Ontario delivers electricity to. 579 00:33:20.029 --> 00:33:24.829 It was a strategic move to present himself as an 580 00:33:24.930 --> 00:33:29.119 anti-Trump candidate. I think we can all see it has succeeded. 581 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.740 It's maybe the only thing that Ford has been able 582 00:33:32.779 --> 00:33:36.420 to use to his advantage to present himself as someone 583 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:40.240 who's fighting for Ontarians. Because, I mean, beyond this sort 584 00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:43.779 of branding exercise where he tells Donald Trump to kiss 585 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:45.279 his a * *, he's doing a lot of things 586 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:48.980 that are making people's lives worse, right? I mean, we 587 00:33:49.029 --> 00:33:53.230 can go into the threat of privatizing water. We can 588 00:33:53.289 --> 00:33:57.470 go into the defunding of hospitals and public education. Teachers, unions, 589 00:33:57.529 --> 00:33:59.349 none of them have deals right now, even though all 590 00:33:59.410 --> 00:34:02.309 five of them gave him notice to bargain over the summer, right? 591 00:34:02.630 --> 00:34:07.619 He's on a 21-week break. after passing wanton legislation, just 592 00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:10.760 like there was just so much policy passed at the 593 00:34:10.780 --> 00:34:13.900 start of the year that is impacting your life directly 594 00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:17.380 if you live in this province. And every time I 595 00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.199 talk to someone about what they think about Doug Ford, 596 00:34:20.739 --> 00:34:23.519 it's always, well, I don't really like his politics, but 597 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:26.139 I do like that he's standing up to us against America. 598 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.360 And I think that's kind of interesting. 599 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:28.880 Yeah. 600 00:34:29.059 --> 00:34:31.619 And I think

it is important because when we talk 601 00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.760 about the politics of Canada in 2026, as much as 602 00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:39.110 it pains someone like me who really, you know, I 603 00:34:39.369 --> 00:34:41.730 try to focus a lot of this podcast and my 604 00:34:41.750 --> 00:34:44.309 analysis on Canadian specific stuff. 605 00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:46.809 There is no way to separate. 606 00:34:46.510 --> 00:34:50.780 Canadian politics, whether it be provincial or federal, from Donald Trump, 607 00:34:51.019 --> 00:34:53.260 the trade war, and everything that's going on. And you 608 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:56.599 can see it in not just Ford, but how other 609 00:34:57.219 --> 00:34:59.800 premiers are positioning themselves as well. Like Daniel Smith, who 610 00:34:59.860 --> 00:35:03.610 is famously not going after Trump right now, is paying 611 00:35:03.650 --> 00:35:05.869 for it politically and a bunch of other things too. 612 00:35:06.550 --> 00:35:11.409 And Carney, who made absolutely clear how I feel about 613 00:35:11.449 --> 00:35:13.699 his policies and how damaging they are, he is seen 614 00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:16.119 as a strong prime minister because of how he is 615 00:35:16.179 --> 00:35:19.760 treating Doug, not Doug Ford, he's treating Doug Ford pretty equally, 616 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:22.780 how he's treating Donald Trump. And I think Ford is 617 00:35:23.929 --> 00:35:26.070 someone that a lot of people on the left probably 618 00:35:26.110 --> 00:35:29.849 hate with justification, but there's something about him that is 619 00:35:29.929 --> 00:35:32.489 unique from other politicians. And is there anything in your 620 00:35:32.530 --> 00:35:36.000 reporting that you're kind of, like, shocked by but not really? Like, 621 00:35:36.340 --> 00:35:38.739 it's very specifically a Doug Ford thing that he's been 622 00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.119 able to get a third majority, push through this legislation, 623 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:43.920 and take, like, half a year of a break. 624 00:35:43.940 --> 00:35:45.199 So, like, what is it about. 625 00:35:45.090 --> 00:35:49.030 Doug Ford that makes him likable in this realm to 626 00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:50.389 the detriment of everything else he does? 627 00:35:50.530 --> 00:35:51.269 It's interesting. 628 00:35:51.429 --> 00:35:51.630 I mean. 629 00:35:52.530 --> 00:35:56.230 I think the Fords have all kind of embodied the 630 00:35:56.250 --> 00:36:01.250 same sort of right-wing pseudo-populist approach to politics. They have 631 00:36:01.289 --> 00:36:04.449 a specific brand of politics that doesn't start with Doug. 632 00:36:04.489 --> 00:36:07.489 It doesn't start with his brother, Rob. But the patriarch 633 00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:10.690 of the family was a sitting MPP, and it was always, 634 00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:13.610 you know, be available to people. Give me a text 635 00:36:13.659 --> 00:36:16.460 on a cell phone, right? I mean, that's a Doug 636 00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:19.760 Ford thing. But his father also was accessible. 637 00:36:20.250 --> 00:36:22.489 Ford Fest was a thing for a long time, right? 638 00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:23.190 Yeah. 639 00:36:23.349 --> 00:36:26.550 I covered it in journalism school because I was at 640 00:36:26.590 --> 00:36:30.719 Humber North, right? So it's just– there's a very specific 641 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:33.840 I'm just one of you guys kind of politics that 642 00:36:33.860 --> 00:36:39.280 I think sits really well with a specific brand of Ontarian, right? 643 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:41.980 It's kind of got like that weird hockey dad on 644 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.840 your team who– is not super likable, but will yell 645 00:36:45.889 --> 00:36:47.090 at the ref on your behalf. 646 00:36:48.210 --> 00:36:49.329 I think that does play. 647 00:36:49.610 --> 00:36:52.150 But I mean, everybody was trying to be the anti-Trump 648 00:36:52.170 --> 00:36:55.369 candidate in the federal and the provincial elections last year, right? 649 00:36:55.670 --> 00:36:58.750 Polyev was trying to be the anti-Trump candidate. And it's like, 650 00:36:58.769 --> 00:37:04.659 hilarious results. Yeah. I don't think people really bought it. 651 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.260 But I mean, if you listen to things that Ford 652 00:37:08.300 --> 00:37:12.150 said before Trump won his second term, I mean, he 653 00:37:12.170 --> 00:37:15.130 was very supportive of the Republican Party and Donald Trump. 654 00:37:16.449 --> 00:37:20.739 What did he say on that hot mic moment, either 655 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:22.030 during or right after the election? 656 00:37:22.059 --> 00:37:24.360 I think it was right after he called the election 657 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:24.840 or right before. 658 00:37:24.860 --> 00:37:26.000 I'll have to double check the exact timing. 659 00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:28.400 But it was basically he said he was 100 percent 660 00:37:28.420 --> 00:37:29.280 supportive that he won. 661 00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:32.019 And then he started making those tariff threats against Canada. 662 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:34.059 Yeah, it was like it was a knife in his 663 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:35.909 back or something. And it's like, what did you expect? 664 00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:39.619 The man who made his career stabbing people in the 665 00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:44.730 back to do with a knife. He's awful to everyone, 666 00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:46.409 but he's going to be nice to us. 667 00:37:46.570 --> 00:37:48.929 Do you think that that allows him some credibility, though? 668 00:37:48.969 --> 00:37:52.710 Because he and Trump seem more eye to eye than, say, 669 00:37:52.789 --> 00:37:57.510 maybe Tim Houston or another premier like David Eby. Do 670 00:37:57.530 --> 00:38:01.510 you think that lends him credibility when you finally see 671 00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:03.570 someone who's so similar to Trump and is like, hey, 672 00:38:03.610 --> 00:38:04.070 this guy's a. 673

00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:06.519 Like, do you think that lends credibility to him? 674 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:07.010 I don't know. 675 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:07.489 I don't know. 676 00:38:07.550 --> 00:38:11.179 I wouldn't want to speculate just because I don't know 677 00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:14.480 what exactly is making things cook. Like, I covered that election. 678 00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.039 It was the first thing I did at Press Progress. 679 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.900 And I thought our coverage was smart. I thought the 680 00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:22.880 things that we were talking about in that election were important. 681 00:38:23.059 --> 00:38:26.139 You know, we talked about housing. We talked about health care. 682 00:38:26.179 --> 00:38:28.960 We talked about education. We talked about the quality of 683 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:30.860 life for Ontarians. 684 00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:33.960 And nobody cared. Nobody cared. 685 00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:37.840 Um, and maybe that's because the other major political parties 686 00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:41.900 in Ontario did not field candidates, you know, like no 687 00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:44.059 disrespect to the other people who ran, but Bonnie Crombie 688 00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:46.599 couldn't win in Mississauga where she was mayor. 689 00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:47.239 Yes. 690 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:48.579 That's a massive failure. 691 00:38:48.820 --> 00:38:50.760 I mean, you got to hand it to him. 692 00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:51.599 He knows how to win. 693 00:38:51.619 --> 00:38:51.900 Yeah. 694 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:54.550 I'm getting away from the original points, but just to 695 00:38:54.590 --> 00:38:57.650 get to the, you know, does it lend credibility or not? 696 00:38:58.730 --> 00:39:01.469 Dougie seems to be in the sights of Donald Trump. 697 00:39:01.489 --> 00:39:03.929 Donald Trump seems to be quite mad at him specifically. 698 00:39:04.110 --> 00:39:08.210 And I, I'm curious who's feeding him specific Doug Ford notes. 699 00:39:08.250 --> 00:39:11.929 Cause I don't think Trump really knows who Doug Ford is, 700 00:39:12.170 --> 00:39:14.630 but I do know that some people do know who 701 00:39:14.650 --> 00:39:18.289 Doug Ford is in the federal conservative party and who 702 00:39:18.329 --> 00:39:22.250 might have ties to Donald Trump's vice president. Um, because 703 00:39:22.269 --> 00:39:26.090 there's like, Trump said some, some pretty wacky things about, uh, 704 00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:30.889 How Doug had no charisma, but his... uh his late 705 00:39:30.989 --> 00:39:33.840 brother did the late great rob ford i think he 706 00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:36.070 said and i mean jury's still out about the greatness 707 00:39:36.110 --> 00:39:39.619 of that man he was caught smoking crack while mayor more. 708 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:42.360 Than enough to eat at home you know canadian heritage moment. 709 00:39:42.219 --> 00:39:45.460 The man got caught uh reading council agendas while going 710 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:48.579 like 80 on the gardener there were incidents at city 711 00:39:48.619 --> 00:39:52.389 hall that consistently and they sort of neutered his power 712 00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:54.829 as mayor as well counselors were not he was moving 713 00:39:54.849 --> 00:39:57.489 a little erratically that was a very specific deep cut 714 00:39:57.610 --> 00:39:59.289 and i also i don't know i'm gonna take this 715 00:39:59.389 --> 00:40:01.800 way off off base but i thought it was quite 716 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:06.440 interesting that donald trump said that considering what happened to 717 00:40:06.619 --> 00:40:10.019 his brother right the president and the premier are both 718 00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:13.639 teetotalers and i don't know what inspired that decision but 719 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:16.769 they both have a sibling who passed away who also 720 00:40:16.849 --> 00:40:19.920 had Issues with substance abuse. And I think that's actually 721 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.360 quite interesting and it's not brought up a lot. 722 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.340 I mean, there are definitely similarities there. 723 00:40:24.659 --> 00:40:27.050 I mean, even before all this talking about Doug Ford's 724 00:40:27.670 --> 00:40:30.949 most publicized moves have been to liberalize alcohol sales. And 725 00:40:30.969 --> 00:40:32.809 it seems like something that he always goes to, you know, 726 00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:35.340 when there's a Canadian Olympics match going on, he's like, 727 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:39.199 bars can sell it earlier. Trump, who famously does not drink, 728 00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:41.679 is like, you got to let American whiskey and he 729 00:40:41.929 --> 00:40:42.719 doesn't really care. 730 00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:44.820 But it is of utility to him. 731 00:40:44.860 --> 00:40:46.159 And I do want to get back to, you know, 732 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:49.000 you said that why it's cooking and it is cooking 733 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:53.460 to use the parlance of the younger generation, because there's 734 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.539 concrete numbers behind this. 735 00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.460 You know, before the trade talks collapsed. 736 00:40:56.199 --> 00:41:00.079 In July, Ford was seeing like 24 percent approval in 737 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:03.860 a poll. The main headline was that liberals, I mentioned 738 00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:06.360 this earlier, they still don't have a leader. 739 00:41:06.380 --> 00:41:07.260 They're still working on it. 740 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:09.800 They were polling at 38% while the PCs were polling 741 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:14.920 at 33%. But since this trade talk collapsed, and it 742 00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:17.019 was a little bit closer to its collapse, so it 743 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.090 might be a little bit of an outlier, but approval 744 00:41:20.110 --> 00:41:23.070 for Ford jumped 12%. And the same poll showed that 745 00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:26.650 the PCs

were now at 39% to the liberals 35%. 746 00:41:26.650 --> 00:41:28.909 So obviously, that's a lot of numbers to just throw 747 00:41:28.969 --> 00:41:32.750 out there. But it's showing there is actual political utility 748 00:41:33.369 --> 00:41:37.769 in this public opinion thing. And I'm wondering why this 749 00:41:37.789 --> 00:41:40.610 has not necessarily been something that any other premier can 750 00:41:40.869 --> 00:41:43.190 wield effectively. I mean, Wab Kanu is the most popular 751 00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:45.809 premier in Canada, so maybe I'm discounting him just because 752 00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:49.230 people are impressed with his resume. But like, David Eby, 753 00:41:49.989 --> 00:41:52.570 still got charisma, still, you know, not maybe Doug Ford level, 754 00:41:52.610 --> 00:41:55.170 but he doesn't seem to have that same ability to 755 00:41:55.210 --> 00:41:57.869 turn around a quote-unquote sinking ship that Ford does. 756 00:41:58.210 --> 00:42:01.500 You know, I hate to besmirch the reputation of my... 757 00:42:02.210 --> 00:42:05.329 wonderful hometown province, but I do think the politics here 758 00:42:05.389 --> 00:42:08.190 are quite stupid sometimes. And I'd say that as someone 759 00:42:08.210 --> 00:42:10.190 who covers Ontario. 760 00:42:10.210 --> 00:42:13.070 Two good Ontario boys talking right now, and I agree. 761 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:13.860 Yeah. 762 00:42:14.510 --> 00:42:17.059 So it's just like, you know, I hate to be like, 763 00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:20.679 this is because we're not thinking about things properly here. 764 00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:23.800 But I do think that Doug Ford is the same 765 00:42:23.860 --> 00:42:26.800 guy who bought himself that private jet that everybody was 766 00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:27.260 mad about. 767 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:28.739 This is the same guy who keeps. 768 00:42:29.309 --> 00:42:33.530 claiming historic events in education and healthcare, but it's really 769 00:42:33.570 --> 00:42:38.050 just more buildings. There's no personnel to fill those buildings, right? 770 00:42:38.530 --> 00:42:41.449 It's the same guy who threatened a public service worker 771 00:42:41.530 --> 00:42:44.480 to find another job when he was forcing them all 772 00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:46.900 back to work. He's the same guy who got out 773 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:49.840 of the LCBO deal. three months early at the cost 774 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.880 of hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money. 775 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:54.119 He tweeted something. 776 00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:00.199 He made an announcement at some press conference. He bought 777 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:03.599 an ad in the States quoting Ronald Reagan that cost 778 00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:08.260 $ 70 million and tanked trade talks at the time, right? 779 00:43:08.780 --> 00:43:10.639 Those are the things that seem to be working. 780 00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:13.820 And I find that frustrating because food insecurity is

still 781 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:16.429 at the same level. The number of homeless people is 782 00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:19.949 not being fixed. We're just focusing on how we really 783 00:43:19.989 --> 00:43:22.809 stuck it to Donald there. I don't see a point 784 00:43:23.190 --> 00:43:26.820 in celebrating a win like that when, I mean, we're 785 00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:29.280 still going to have to go back to the table afterwards. 786 00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:32.800 It's going to be angrier at our premier. And the 787 00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:35.400 whole thing is so stupid. Like, I want to I 788 00:43:35.420 --> 00:43:37.940 want to really drive that home. The big controversy over 789 00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:40.739 the weekend was that Donald Trump signed some executive order 790 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:42.239 to rename Lake Ontario. 791 00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.599 And it's like, please go outside. Yeah, like you. 792 00:43:46.170 --> 00:43:49.800 Losers this is just so embarrassing like no one should 793 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.480 care about this No one should be paying attention to 794 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:58.519 it because we're trying to solve actual problems here. Ontario 795 00:43:58.539 --> 00:44:01.019 has real issues. Don't focus on whether or not Google 796 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:06.159 Maps is flipping the name from Lake Ontario to Lake America, right? 797 00:44:06.550 --> 00:44:08.610 This is goofy. This is goofy. 798 00:44:08.630 --> 00:44:11.349 I think the most we can spend on this is that, 799 00:44:11.530 --> 00:44:13.909 I mean, it's very indicative of where a lot of 800 00:44:13.949 --> 00:44:16.230 coverage has fallen. And I saw something on Global News 801 00:44:16.269 --> 00:44:20.329 where it said, like, Some Ontario sites are displaying Lake 802 00:44:20.369 --> 00:44:23.710 America instead of Lake Ontario. And, you know, the long 803 00:44:23.750 --> 00:44:27.030 and short of it is these sites source from Google Maps, 804 00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:29.260 and Google Maps has changed it. So, you know, first 805 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:32.019 of all, American tech oligopolies are going to do American 806 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:35.760 tech oligopolies. I mean, if this is your first introduction 807 00:44:35.820 --> 00:44:37.599 to that, welcome to planet Earth. 808 00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:38.519 My name is Scott Martin. 809 00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:41.079 But the thing that we need to focus on, and 810 00:44:41.099 --> 00:44:44.380 I think you're good in pointing it out, is all 811 00:44:44.420 --> 00:44:46.010 the material effects. 812 00:44:46.050 --> 00:44:47.289 However, I think. 813 00:44:48.010 --> 00:44:51.929 It is a very difficult and thorny question to talk 814 00:44:51.969 --> 00:44:54.849 about because these trade talks will have material effects. A 815 00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:58.719 lot of manufacturing happens in Ontario, a lot of car factories, 816 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:02.219 and whatever we think of Trump and Ford

kind of 817 00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:05.400 having these like basically social media shits over each other. 818 00:45:05.780 --> 00:45:06.659 There is a risk. 819 00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:10.420 For what level quality of life we have in Ontario, 820 00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:14.070 which is a lot lower than it was in 2018, 821 00:45:14.070 --> 00:45:14.829 deteriorating further. 822 00:45:24.449 --> 00:45:26.789 There's a highlight from a recent episode of The North State. 823 00:45:27.110 --> 00:45:30.550 Find new episodes at host Scott Martin's thecatch.ca substack and 824 00:45:30.570 --> 00:45:34.369 hear the rest of the conversation at harbingermedianetwork.com. You listen 825 00:45:34.389 --> 00:45:37.230 to Harbinger Showcase on your local campus and community radio station. 826 00:45:37.530 --> 00:45:45.940 I'm Harbinger Director Andre Goulet in Montreal. And finally, since 827 00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:50.780 February 2016, Polite Conversations has been covering conversations religion, sexuality, 828 00:45:50.969 --> 00:45:54.280 culture wars, and right-wing extremism from a leftist immigrant perspective 829 00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.340 with host Ina Mohamed-Smith in Toronto. On this highlight from 830 00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:00.960 a new episode, investigative journalist and To Catch a Fascist 831 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.000 author Christopher Mathias joins the show to discuss the state 832 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.079 of the American far-right. Now, here's Ina. 833 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:12.239 Polite Conversations is part of a progressive, independent Canadian podcast community. 834 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.519 Check out Harbinger Media at harbingermedianetwork.com. 835 00:46:20.110 --> 00:46:22.739 The conditions in the past few years have been a 836 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:34.050 perfect storm for extremism, hate, and conspiracy theories to flourish 837 00:46:34.250 --> 00:46:36.150 around the world. 838 00:46:36.230 --> 00:46:38.929 Join me as I try to learn more, one country 839 00:46:39.070 --> 00:46:40.150 at a time. 840 00:46:48.230 --> 00:46:54.969 In another Polite Conversations miniseries, this time exploring the global far-right. 841 00:46:58.250 --> 00:46:59.670 Hey there, lovely listeners. 842 00:46:59.789 --> 00:47:04.570 Welcome to another episode in the global far-right series. It's 843 00:47:04.590 --> 00:47:06.849 been a while since we've done one of these. I 844 00:47:07.289 --> 00:47:11.340 must admit, I have found the very idea of doing 845 00:47:11.380 --> 00:47:16.260 an episode on this particular country quite daunting and and 846 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:20.480 so have probably avoided it for a while, because even 847 00:47:20.539 --> 00:47:24.630 though I am extremely familiar with and cover the American 848 00:47:24.710 --> 00:47:29.469 far-right quite often, even though my audience is majority American, 849 00:47:29.590 --> 00:47:35.059 it just feels like a very difficult task to capture 850 00:47:35.139 --> 00:47:38.619 the urgency and totality of what is happening. 851 00:47:39.139 --> 00:47:42.139 Happening there, and to do it real justice, you know? 852 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:46.420 Because how do you cover the far right of a 853 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:52.460 rogue superpower state that is currently terrorizing several countries in 854 00:47:52.500 --> 00:47:56.840 the world, assisting in and arming a genocide, threatening to 855 00:47:56.900 --> 00:48:00.400 wipe out civilizations, and so on? A country where the 856 00:48:00.460 --> 00:48:03.920 far right has now basically stepped out of the shadows 857 00:48:03.940 --> 00:48:08.400 and and into the most powerful positions in the land, 858 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:13.539 and is taking a wrecking ball to the whole world, basically, 859 00:48:13.900 --> 00:48:17.679 including itself. It doesn't feel right to call it just 860 00:48:18.019 --> 00:48:24.039 the far right, because it has engulfed the whole country. But, 861 00:48:24.500 --> 00:48:27.659 you know, I think we had a really great conversation here, 862 00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:30.570 and I'm so excited to share it with you, and 863 00:48:30.650 --> 00:48:33.829 with such a knowledgeable guest to guide us through all this, 864 00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.739 But since this is a topic that has so many 865 00:48:37.780 --> 00:48:43.380 different nodes and layers and paths, even after a lengthy discussion, 866 00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:47.199 we really just barely scratched the surface of the extremist 867 00:48:47.809 --> 00:48:52.789 horror show plaguing the U.S. currently. So I'm hoping that 868 00:48:52.829 --> 00:48:55.409 we can do a follow-up to this discussion sometime again. 869 00:48:55.989 --> 00:48:59.579 But in this episode, we talk about what laid. 870 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:04.739 The groundwork for these political conditions. We compare Trump 1.0 871 00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:05.659 and 2.0. 872 00:49:05.659 --> 00:49:06.739 We talk about some. 873 00:49:06.579 --> 00:49:11.000 Of the cartoon villains, basically, that are part of or 874 00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:15.130 adjacent to this current administration. And we discuss how this 875 00:49:15.269 --> 00:49:19.130 level of fascism manifests even in events like the recent 876 00:49:19.230 --> 00:49:23.210 FIFA World Cup. you know. And if you know me, 877 00:49:23.409 --> 00:49:26.840 you know I know nothing about sports, but the politics 878 00:49:26.889 --> 00:49:30.539 around it always interested me. Some of the topics that 879 00:49:30.579 --> 00:49:33.039 we didn't get around to, but I'd like to mention here, 880 00:49:33.179 --> 00:49:36.860 just to give a very basic but fuller picture of 881 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:41.559 how wide-ranging this fasciness is and how many directions it 882 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:46.699 has spread to. I mean, it's the attack on universities, 883 00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:56.630 the surveillance and techno-fascism, the corporate takeover angle, the

unbelievable corruption, 884 00:49:56.650 --> 00:50:01.050 the Maha aspect of things, cuts to departments that are 885 00:50:01.130 --> 00:50:06.360 very important to keeping people safe, leading to potential explosive 886 00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:12.679 diarrhea spreading everywhere. Doge and USAID, and how many deaths 887 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:16.719 that led to. And then there's the clear eugenics equality 888 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:22.559 that Pete Hegseth's intolerance of diversity takes, his obsession with 889 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:29.880 fitness and unfitness. Like, he was fat-shaming army generals and 890 00:50:30.019 --> 00:50:31.380 calling people beardos. 891 00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:32.619 As if the U.S. 892 00:50:32.659 --> 00:50:37.639 Military wasn't fashy enough already. But now, even from within... 893 00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:42.539 Anything outside of the very specific physical mold simply will 894 00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:46.699 not be tolerated by this guy in charge with Nazi-esque 895 00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:51.869 tattoos who calls himself the Secretary of War. There's also 896 00:50:51.929 --> 00:50:57.690 the atmospheric, incel-like hatred of quote-unquote childless cat ladies coming 897 00:50:57.710 --> 00:50:59.170 from the Vice President, J.D. 898 00:50:59.230 --> 00:51:03.780 Vance himself. And, you know, not to mention Trump's. 899 00:51:03.510 --> 00:51:08.309 Behavior towards female journalists. Then there's the whole exploitation of 900 00:51:08.349 --> 00:51:12.739 the Charlie Kirk assassination and the whole Epstein aspect of things. 901 00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:16.179 There's just a lot. A lot. 902 00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:21.199 So keep in mind just how much fashiness we are 903 00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:25.699 swimming in when talking about the far right in the U.S. 904 00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:31.809 A truly nightmarish reality. Now, I'd love to be able 905 00:51:31.829 --> 00:51:35.250 to unlock the entire episode for everyone, as I like 906 00:51:35.289 --> 00:51:38.360 to do with all my miniseries, but as a very 907 00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:42.500 small one-person show, I can only afford to do that if. 908 00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:44.559 People subscribe and support. 909 00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:48.969 Via patreon.com forward slash nicemangos. So if we get just 910 00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:53.250 seven new subscribers, I'll unlock the full episode on the 911 00:51:53.289 --> 00:51:56.969 main feed. And if you can't subscribe, you can still 912 00:51:57.010 --> 00:51:59.980 support the show by leaving a review below. or sharing 913 00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:04.699 the episode online. All these things help. All right, here's 914 00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:05.380 the episode. 915 00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:10.010 Hello, hello, everyone. 916 00:52:10.090 --> 00:52:14.230 Welcome to another episode in the Global Far Right series. 917 00:52:14.309 --> 00:52:16.150 It's been a while since we've done one of these, 918 00:52:16.369 --> 00:52:19.369

and today I have a massive one for you, an 919 00:52:20.010 --> 00:52:23.690 episode that seemed quite daunting to me for a while, 920 00:52:23.769 --> 00:52:26.579 because how do you cover a country like this, to 921 00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:30.389 be honest? But today we are going to talk about 922 00:52:30.510 --> 00:52:31.849 the U.S. 923 00:52:31.949 --> 00:52:32.639 Of A. 924 00:52:33.190 --> 00:52:38.099 With journalist and author Christopher Mathias, author of To Catch 925 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:38.880 a Fascist. 926 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:41.409 Hi, Christopher. How's it going? 927 00:52:42.090 --> 00:52:44.369 Hey, it's going great. Thanks so much for having me. 928 00:52:44.409 --> 00:52:46.820 It's a pleasure to be here, even though the topic 929 00:52:46.860 --> 00:52:48.139 can be a little dark. 930 00:52:49.099 --> 00:52:53.800 Yeah, no, thank you so much for coming on. You 931 00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:59.320 are the perfect guy to talk about this. And also 932 00:52:59.539 --> 00:53:05.570 consistently and constantly anti-fascist. And I have to say that 933 00:53:05.610 --> 00:53:10.510 that is a rare, rare thing nowadays, even amongst... people 934 00:53:10.550 --> 00:53:15.070 who otherwise cover extremism in the West since the genocide, 935 00:53:15.650 --> 00:53:18.469 I have noticed like a pattern where people are very 936 00:53:18.510 --> 00:53:22.250 selective about what kinds of fascism they call out and 937 00:53:22.369 --> 00:53:27.389 what kinds they are completely silent about. And I'm delighted 938 00:53:27.409 --> 00:53:28.610 to say you're not one of those. 939 00:53:28.730 --> 00:53:32.679 So, well, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I, yeah, 940 00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:35.280 I mean, that could be a whole episode of in itself, 941 00:53:35.380 --> 00:53:38.460 but I think a lot of, a lot of people have, um, 942 00:53:39.300 --> 00:53:43.739 you know, I think probably decided not to speak out for, 943 00:53:44.070 --> 00:53:46.250 I think at times for fear of their jobs and 944 00:53:46.610 --> 00:53:50.289 other stuff. But it's a crazy, crazy, it's been a 945 00:53:50.309 --> 00:53:54.579 crazy climate working in media the last God, what, three years? 946 00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.139 Yeah. 947 00:53:55.699 --> 00:53:55.940 Yeah. 948 00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:56.340 I bet. 949 00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:59.760 And especially on your beat, because like, how do you 950 00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:05.739 even zero in on, like specific kinds of fascism when 951 00:54:05.780 --> 00:54:09.440 it seems like the whole country is like exploding with. 952 00:54:09.340 --> 00:54:10.739 Fascism yeah. 953 00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:14.780 Yeah i mean that's kind of the um you know 954 00:54:14.860 --> 00:54:16.480 ended up kind of and we can get into this 955 00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:17.860 in a bit but it kind of ended up being 956 00:54:17.900 --> 00:54:20.260 the the premise of or the kind of the animating 957 00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:23.659 question of my book which is which is essentially about 958 00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:29.900 anti-fascist doxing which is you know about exposing fascists but 959 00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:35.639 um you know if the entire gop is arguably fascist 960 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.519 then can you really unmask anybody. 961 00:54:38.900 --> 00:54:41.539 That's right i mean though they were getting quite angry 962 00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:46.739 about their ice freaks being literally unmasked. 963 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:48.300 They they're very mad about that i guess. 964 00:54:48.099 --> 00:54:52.809 Yeah yeah but uh you're right like when you're like 965 00:54:52.989 --> 00:54:56.030 president is a fascist and your vice president is a 966 00:54:56.050 --> 00:54:59.030 fascist and everyone else surrounding them as a fascist, it's, 967 00:54:59.309 --> 00:55:01.869 it feels kind of like, okay, so now what do 968 00:55:01.889 --> 00:55:03.670 we do? They're out in the open. 969 00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:05.030 Yeah. 970 00:55:05.369 --> 00:55:05.989 Yeah, exactly. 971 00:55:06.010 --> 00:55:08.909 Um, no, it's, it's been a wild, um, you know, 972 00:55:08.909 --> 00:55:12.769 10 years, you know, I been covering the far right 973 00:55:12.789 --> 00:55:16.800 for about that long. And, um, and we can get 974 00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:19.599 into this, but I actually started off like covering Islamophobia, 975 00:55:19.659 --> 00:55:23.010 which kind of segued, naturally into covering the far right. 976 00:55:23.889 --> 00:55:28.880 But it's crazy to see the degree to which the 977 00:55:28.969 --> 00:55:34.139 private chats I used to read on Nazi servers, the 978 00:55:34.179 --> 00:55:37.960 language they use, the terms they used have now just 979 00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:42.889 gone completely mainstream. One example, I used to see the 980 00:55:42.969 --> 00:55:46.579 phrase import the third world become the third world, which 981 00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:50.679 is something that, yeah, something that the white house or 982 00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:54.380 that Trump has tweeted. Now I used to see terms 983 00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:59.059 like remigration, great replacement in, in Nazi chats 10 years ago. 984 00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:01.739 And again, now that's, you know, you can see it 985 00:56:01.780 --> 00:56:05.309 on the DHS Twitter account. So it's been, it's been 986 00:56:05.349 --> 00:56:06.409 a crazy, crazy ride. 987 00:56:06.610 --> 00:56:06.969 Yeah. 988 00:56:07.110 --> 00:56:09.190 I mean, and, and for me, like I used to 989 00:56:09.250 --> 00:56:13.070 hear those things, um, talked about in the new atheist 990 00:56:13.130 --> 00:56:17.880 scene and I was already feeling very alarmed because I'm like, 991 00:56:17.909 --> 00:56:21.800 this is white nationalist talk. And how are we doing 992 00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:26.159 this under the guise of, you know, reasonable, rational critique 993 00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:31.320 of religion or, um, You know, and they would always 994 00:56:31.900 --> 00:56:36.190 position themselves as the more reasonable ones, as the sensible ones. 995 00:56:36.510 --> 00:56:39.510 Yet that rhetoric became more and more extreme and it 996 00:56:39.590 --> 00:56:45.630 seemed to be borrowed directly from white nationalists. And now 997 00:56:46.130 --> 00:56:48.550 it's exploded onto the mainstream. 998 00:56:48.949 --> 00:56:52.349 And yeah, it's pretty horrifying. 999 00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:27.250 We'll be back with a new episode next week. Until then, 1000 00:57:27.269 --> 00:57:31.159 I'm Harbinger Director Andre Goulet in Montreal. Now, back to 1001 00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:34.139 your regularly scheduled community radio station programming.