บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Rob Hardy talks shooting Clayface, Ex Machina & why cinematography shouldn't be noticed (4K)

immediacy and tactility. 57 00:04:00.814 --> 00:04:09.037 In that film specifically, I think of the scenes with, of course, iconic scenes, like the ones with Jesse Plemons, the red glasses, and how immediate that is and how terrifying that is. 58 00:04:09.497 --> 00:04:30.735 but then also not too long after that you have that beautiful forest fire sequence which is almost surreal it's expressionistic and the way that you do that you straddle those but you bring so much sort of tactility and expression to both of those yeah I mean it's like I am definitely into the idea of a degree of realism and a degree of 59 00:04:33.137 --> 00:05:00.044 different ends of the scale but um i i really enjoy trying to combine those two elements um because i think you know for me the best kind of cinema the cinema i always have always loved and have grew up on was it was always like a lot of it was american cinema actually but it always felt like far away it always felt like a different world uh from from a viewing point of view but 60 00:05:02.345 --> 00:05:06.287 that I felt I could connect with in that distancing, if that makes any sense. 61 00:05:06.648 --> 00:05:12.811 So it's like almost the more fantastical it became, the more I believed it. 62 00:05:13.391 --> 00:05:27.760 So for example, you know, I mean, like when I was, when I was a kid, like for me, there was a run of John Carpenter movies that I, I think probably really informed what I do now, 63 00:05:29.621 --> 00:05:40.068 and his collaboration with a cinematographer called Dean Cundy, there was always something sort of a bit mysterious about the aesthetic of those films. 64 00:05:40.108 --> 00:05:45.011 I'm talking like Halloween through to The Thing or An Escape from New York. 65 00:05:45.611 --> 00:05:47.313 That little group of films, they're... 66 00:05:48.573 --> 00:06:07.808 is well documented i'm a huge fan of the thing anyway but but there was a there was a sort of um a kind of mysterious smokiness to it but but at the same time it felt real but i loved i loved the idea that it it didn't shy away from from uh spectacle in a way and so so 67 00:06:10.507 --> 00:06:19.911 The thing I've always sort of chased is this idea that you can embed a sort of sense of realism. 68 00:06:19.951 --> 00:06:22.992 You can embed a sense of immediacy. 69 00:06:24.412 --> 00:06:27.453 And most importantly, put the audience into the room. 70 00:06:28.214 --> 00:06:31.295 But at the same time, make it feel like... 71 00:06:33.275 --> 00:06:35.797 you know, it's, it's entertaining. 72 00:06:36.037 --> 00:06:39.099 It's like, it's not, it's, it's like, it's fun. 73 00:06:41.421 --> 00:06:49.747 And so, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's just essentially been a journey of trying to do that, trying to keep replicating that idea. 74 00:06:50.768 --> 00:07:15.465 um i do i mean i really love i really get off on the idea of surrealism and you know i used to love when i've grown up again like time bandits and brazil and

movies like that always used to really sort of take me away and and of course blade runner ridley scott's blade runner um felt like a sort of fever dream to me and it was it was the dreamlike nature of that that really inspired me and i was 75 00:07:16.065 --> 00:07:25.770 you know, I don't know, probably 10 or something when I first saw it, um, when it first came out, show my age, but, um, I'll never forget that experience. 76 00:07:25.810 --> 00:07:39.858 It was like, you know, after seeing a film like that, it felt real, but at the same time, it was just, it was a completely different thing to what my reality was in life. 77 00:07:40.859 --> 00:07:42.800 Um, and so, um, 78 00:07:44.255 --> 00:08:04.180 irrespective of whatever that story is that I'm involved in telling in terms of cinema, um, I'll always hold onto that idea, you know, whether it's sort of, you know, the social realism of something like Boye, um, or as you say, like, you know, Mission Impossible. 79 00:08:04.380 --> 00:08:08.321 I mean, for me, it was, it's just, it's proximity, proximity, proximity. 80 00:08:08.341 --> 00:08:10.882 In fact, I remember having that conversation with, um, 81 00:08:11.502 --> 00:08:24.432 Tom, when we, because we're on first name terms, obviously, you know, when we first started prep on, on Fallout, he would often ask me, what, what do you, what's your plan? 82 00:08:24.472 --> 00:08:25.613 What, how do you, you know, 83 00:08:28.088 --> 00:08:38.697 And, you know, one of the ways I sold it to him was because I'd seen the previous films and there had been a lot of sort of long lensy stuff to cover action, which was sort of a traditional thing to do. 84 00:08:38.758 --> 00:08:43.141 And for me, that was my first big action experience. 85 00:08:43.622 --> 00:08:44.663 I didn't know what I was doing. 86 00:08:45.183 --> 00:08:50.408 All I knew is that, you know, as far as that was concerned, all I knew is that what I knew was... 87 00:08:50.908 --> 00:08:55.990 I wanted the audience to feel what he was feeling and go on that ride. 88 00:08:56.130 --> 00:08:56.350 Right. 89 00:08:56.510 --> 00:09:02.673 And, and, and with, with an actor like that, what you have is somebody who does everything. 90 00:09:03.433 --> 00:09:05.594 So there's no pretending, there's no hiding. 91 00:09:06.194 --> 00:09:06.995 It is what it is. 92 00:09:07.135 --> 00:09:13.757 He rides the bike, he flies the helicopter, you know, he drives the car, it rolls down the steps in the middle of Paris, whatever he's doing it. 93 00:09:13.858 --> 00:09:19.220 So it's like, that's a great opportunity for someone like myself, where you're dealing with realism. 94 00:09:20.060 --> 00:09:24.322 But what's happening in terms of the realism is in fact completely fantastical. 95 00:09:24.883 --> 00:09:29.285 So, you know, I said to him, like, my plan is to put the camera close to you. 96 00:09:29.565 --> 00:09:36.930 My plan is to work off like mid to wide angle lenses and have the audience

experience what's happening here. 97 00:09:38.057 --> 00:09:43.504 And also what's happening all around you, you know, like you're flying through Paris, but we want to see your face while you're doing it. 98 00:09:44.165 --> 00:09:46.228 And he's like, uh-huh, uh-huh. 99 00:09:46.288 --> 00:09:48.291 Because he loves the idea of a camera right here. 100 00:09:48.691 --> 00:09:49.873 You know, that's, that's for him. 101 00:09:49.933 --> 00:09:53.818 It's like, it's the big sell because that's why he's a movie star. 102 00:09:55.967 --> 00:09:57.128 Sorry, I just went off on the tangent. 103 00:09:57.988 --> 00:09:59.129 No idea what I'm talking about. 104 00:09:59.490 --> 00:10:01.191 No, it seems to me that you do. 105 00:10:01.671 --> 00:10:03.112 I mean, hey, I mean, it worked for Tom. 106 00:10:03.512 --> 00:10:11.058 I mean, what you just described there about how that sort of sense of bringing a kind of immediacy, but also a kind of poetry to the image. 107 00:10:11.178 --> 00:10:14.160 And like you talk about with John Carpenter, like it's not flat. 108 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:16.802 It's like, you know, there is real luster to it, but also it's... 109 00:10:17.302 --> 00:10:19.104 There's immediacy and it's fun. 110 00:10:19.184 --> 00:10:21.566 There's energy and fun in the image. 111 00:10:21.947 --> 00:10:28.813 I mean, do you think that is... We were talking a bit before we started rolling when we were setting up about what makes a good cinematographer and what makes good cinematography. 112 00:10:28.833 --> 00:10:34.859 Because I think there is an idea that some people expound, which is like good cinematography almost sometimes should not be noticed or it shouldn't be noticed at all. 113 00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:35.680 I mean, what do you think of that? 114 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:37.722 Do you think good cinematography should be noticed? 115 00:10:37.742 --> 00:10:40.644 Yeah, I do agree with that, actually, because I think... 116 00:10:41.505 --> 00:10:46.667 Film is, of all the mediums, it's probably one of the most collaborative, I would have thought. 117 00:10:47.727 --> 00:10:51.729 I'll go out there and say it because it involves multiple disciplines. 118 00:10:52.869 --> 00:10:57.651 And in order for the film to work, those disciplines have to align. 119 00:10:58.611 --> 00:11:07.355 And they have to, you know, the greatest movies, I think, is where everything just sort of works. 120 00:11:07.575 --> 00:11:08.496 The script is great. 121 00:11:08.876 --> 00:11:10.357 The performances are incredible. 122 00:11:10.817 --> 00:11:12.198 The cutting style is amazing. 123 00:11:12.218 --> 00:11:14.219 The cinematography, all of it, the design. 124 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:21.262 Those things have to, yeah, in order for it all to work, they have to align. 125 00:11:21.462 --> 00:11:26.525 So if you have, you know, one element which stands out more than another – 126 00:11:27.425 --> 00:11:29.992 I think it kind of misbalances them. 127 00:11:30.152 --> 00:11:31.756 It can misbalance the film. 128 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.125 I always, uh, I always use this quote. 129 00:11:35.145 --> 00:11:36.348 It's like, uh, 130 00:11:39.185 --> 00:12:00.211 a helicopter pilot once said to me it's like you know you can't a helicopter does not want to fly and a plane you can take up into the air and it wants to fly but a helicopter you have to force it into the air in order for it to fly i think a film is very similar to that making a film is very you have to force it into existence and in in order to do that 131 00:12:01.351 --> 00:12:05.032 there are so many hurdles you have to jump along the way. 132 00:12:05.152 --> 00:12:11.333 I mean, it's ultimately a bunch of, finding a bunch of solutions to problems really is what it is. 133 00:12:12.733 --> 00:12:16.454 And in order to find those solutions, you have to work with everyone else. 134 00:12:16.834 --> 00:12:17.895 You're all in this together. 135 00:12:19.715 --> 00:12:25.576 If one element is trying to push above all the others, like I said, I think it misbalances the thing. 136 00:12:26.176 --> 00:12:27.897 But I think it also shows... 137 00:12:30.418 --> 00:12:36.262 I suppose, as with a lot of businesses, like ego can come into contact with the creative element. 138 00:12:36.762 --> 00:12:39.384 You know, we're in a business of egos, I suppose. 139 00:12:40.986 --> 00:12:53.515 So whenever I see a movie where I really notice the cinematography above all else, I personally get a little bit turned off because I'm not... 140 00:12:53.575 --> 00:12:55.256 There's a sort of slight sort of... 141 00:12:56.118 --> 00:12:57.840 I get a sense of like, look at me, look at me. 142 00:12:57.880 --> 00:13:02.003 I'm not interested in the sort of individual. 143 00:13:02.063 --> 00:13:06.127 I'm interested in the global picture, the product in the end. 144 00:13:06.728 --> 00:13:07.008 For sure. 145 00:13:07.048 --> 00:13:09.550 I want to be taken away, you know, any kind of movie. 146 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:11.132 You just want to be taken away. 147 00:13:11.172 --> 00:13:18.118 And, um, so yeah, I think what makes a good cinematographer is, um, 148 00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:30.397 I mean, everybody's different, but for me personally, I think you're delivering, irrespective of what the genre is, you're trying to deliver a sort of sense of truth. 149 00:13:32.652 --> 00:13:50.473 um you want or at least i do some honesty in in the approach and in the end in the end product is like and i don't when i say truth and honesty i don't mean like oh it's realism social realism or anything like that but 150 00:13:51.573 --> 00:13:52.994 It can be in anything. 151 00:13:53.114 --> 00:13:54.254 It could be in a space movie. 152 00:13:54.294 --> 00:13:54.914 It doesn't matter. 153 00:13:54.974 --> 00:14:00.175 But it's, you know, it's like there's a sort of I feel quite humble. 154 00:14:00.775 --> 00:14:16.599 I can feel get quite humbled by the idea of, you

know, working alongside other great artists and creating something that ultimately people can watch and believe and can be moved by. 155 00:14:16.619 --> 00:14:20.520 And truth plays a big part in that. 156 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:44.885 you know yeah yeah and how do you personally as a cinematographer go about i guess injecting that sense of truth into your work because i hear that uh and bringing that sense of truth to something as fantastical as like say supergirl which is which has just come out like how would you personally when you're on set go about injecting that what that sense of truth into what you do when applying it's such a fantastical spectrum is that well yeah 157 00:14:45.337 --> 00:14:48.198 For me, it's about often a good starting point. 158 00:14:48.278 --> 00:15:02.644 Once you work through the sort of world-building aspect of it in prep, I think if you're putting it into a sort of practical space, then... 159 00:15:03.944 --> 00:15:26.459 For me, a really good approach is to, irrespective of whether you're in a bar, which is on a different planet, or whether you're in a space bus, or, you know, or an airplane or whatever it is, it's like to make sure that that to ensure that that environment feels like it exists, like it's real. 160 00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:30.042 Um, and, and obviously that comes through design and it comes through SFX and all those things. 161 00:15:30.062 --> 00:15:44.812 But also I think for me to allow the space to breathe, to give that space over to the actors, to the director, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, 162 00:15:45.272 --> 00:15:59.802 to inhabit and and and a good starting point for that is it's like you're lighting a space as opposed to individual faces or whatever which can come later that was all that stuff comes later 163 00:16:01.527 --> 00:16:10.937 The best way I can describe it, weirdly, is by using a music analogy in terms of my approach. 164 00:16:11.838 --> 00:16:19.205 There's an engineer or a producer who always liked to call himself an engineer, a guy called Steve Albini, 165 00:16:19.906 --> 00:16:34.753 And of all the things, of all the big inspirations for me, it's been this dude for some reason, not cinematographers or other directors, but this guy, only because it's like the way in which he records music is about the room. 166 00:16:35.474 --> 00:16:45.899 So he could spend a great deal of time setting up microphones in specific places to capture the sound as if the band were playing live. 167 00:16:46.699 --> 00:16:55.023 And then the band will come into that room and they will perform and they can perform as they are, as they really sound. 168 00:16:55.704 --> 00:16:58.025 But there is something then that happens. 169 00:16:58.645 --> 00:16:59.546 It's sort of height. 170 00:17:00.026 --> 00:17:07.250 I don't know how he does it, but it's like the material he's chosen to use, the microphones or whatever it is, it somehow heightens the truth of that sound. 171 00:17:07.950 --> 00:17:09.792 And it pushes it into a different arena. 172 00:17:09.832 --> 00:17:12.694 So it becomes that thing that we were talking about earlier. 173 00:17:12.754 --> 00:17:19.799 There's a sort of, not surrealism, but a sort of stylisation of the realism. 174 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.963 And that can only happen if you get a truthful performance. 175 00:17:24.423 --> 00:17:33.450 In this case from a band, in the case of me from the actors, you know, allowing the director to work the sets themselves together. 176 00:17:35.193 --> 00:17:50.078 So I guess for me, if I can light a space in a way that it looks good from every angle, but it feels like an honest space and the light, the way in which I love the way in which light pollutes other light. 177 00:17:51.098 --> 00:17:58.921 So in the same way, the example I use where sound can pollute other sound, it's like, there's, there's a truth in that. 178 00:18:01.702 --> 00:18:03.983 And so I believe it. 179 00:18:04.623 --> 00:18:19.961 You know, like the case of Supergirl, there are some scenes in there I have I have to say I'm really, really proud of in terms of the way they look, because I mean, the film itself has a very sort of grungy kind of vibe to it. 180 00:18:20.121 --> 00:18:23.105 It's the opposite of what I guess a lot of people. 181 00:18:24.877 --> 00:18:28.519 we're expecting or even hoping it would be. 182 00:18:28.919 --> 00:18:29.520 It's not that. 183 00:18:31.681 --> 00:18:34.142 But it just inhabits this real space. 184 00:18:34.882 --> 00:18:42.206 And that's so important to the way in which Millie was, you know, would deliver that character. 185 00:18:43.267 --> 00:18:47.889 with all of her flaws, Kara's flaws. 186 00:18:48.769 --> 00:18:52.171 And then, you know, the cinematography had to reflect that. 187 00:18:52.571 --> 00:18:55.292 But at the same time, you're delivering a big film. 188 00:18:55.712 --> 00:18:57.953 You're delivering a cinematic experience. 189 00:18:59.374 --> 00:19:01.835 So you have to combine those two things, you know. 190 00:19:04.476 --> 00:19:06.697 Again, I just went off on a tangent here. 191 00:19:08.638 --> 00:19:13.924 I start answering a question and then I've no idea where I, how I got to the other, but I'm just, you know, it's fantastic. 192 00:19:13.944 --> 00:19:14.865 You're doing my job for me. 193 00:19:14.885 --> 00:19:16.307 It's great. 194 00:19:17.128 --> 00:19:18.209 No, it's fantastic. 195 00:19:18.329 --> 00:19:27.800 The, yeah, that grunginess, as you say, I think I totally see that in Supergirl and the way that it is, it poetically matches the character and like that, her and her vibe and her, 196

00:19:28.260 --> 00:19:54.176 sort of tonality i mean and there are so many sort of by the way you're shooting a blockbuster spectacle and there are scenes like yeah in bars and in like space bars like kind of like a moss eisley cantina kind of thing all these different practical aliens and you're shooting all of that i remember hearing you describing it like you like to shoot almost like a 360 degree space i remember hearing you talking about boy a it was kind of some other thing about you light sort of the space and then you the actors can then play in it yeah and then like and they can do what they want to do and then you follow it 197 00:19:54.676 --> 00:20:01.703 And was that, it sounds like that was the case on Supergirl with those sets and with those characters and with those special effects and those practical aliens. 198 00:20:01.723 --> 00:20:03.124 Was that the same approach? 199 00:20:03.164 --> 00:20:03.625 Absolutely. 200 00:20:03.645 --> 00:20:04.185 A hundred percent. 201 00:20:04.225 --> 00:20:05.026 As much as possible. 202 00:20:05.286 --> 00:20:05.506 Yeah. 203 00:20:07.568 --> 00:20:13.974 I mean, just notwithstanding, it does, you know, not only in my opinion, it delivers a really good, authentic look. 204 00:20:15.135 --> 00:20:42.922 um but it also you know just purely from a practical point of view it means you can you can work quite quickly and you can pivot very quickly if you need to or at least you know it you you're allowing or you're you're offering this this to the director to you know make it work in any direction or you know if something goes wrong as it often does that we can try something else in a different way um you're not restricting the actors to a specific way of 205 00:20:47.867 --> 00:20:53.315 but yeah, I mean, it definitely requires a lot of preparation, 206 00:20:56.309 --> 00:21:17.820 it requires a degree of bravery sometimes and trust in yourself to know that you know you i mean like i learned a hell of a lot doing music videos when i was in my early days very early days i think that's where i learned a lot of um 207 00:21:20.053 --> 00:21:23.315 a lot of things about how to light spaces and move quickly. 208 00:21:23.556 --> 00:21:33.202 And, you know, we would often, in those days, everything was shot on film, 16mm mostly for music videos, occasionally on 35. 209 00:21:34.864 --> 00:21:35.744 But there was no... 210 00:21:37.225 --> 00:21:40.788 There wasn't necessarily any discipline, as it were. 211 00:21:41.309 --> 00:21:50.876 You know, like, I kind of like, we should take our time and, you know, enjoy the medium and respect the medium. 212 00:21:50.976 --> 00:21:52.958 It was like, no, no, no, we've got like... 213 00:21:54.319 --> 00:22:02.869 you know, eight hours with this band and we need to get a 400,000 shots in order to make this band look good. 214 00:22:03.469 --> 00:22:04.691 And it has to start now. 215 00:22:05.011 --> 00:22:07.333 And so, you know, but it also has to look good.

216 00:22:08.154 --> 00:22:12.579 So, you know, it was a sort of baptism of fire, really doing that kind of stuff. 217 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:34.607 um i i sort of learned a lot through working in the chaos and so often i would sort of you know take the approach that i felt like like often i think most photography is um for me at least even with stills cameras it you know the frame i think it's always i'm always trying to frame chaos i feel um 218 00:22:37.705 --> 00:22:42.868 you allow the space to exist, you allow everything in it to exist and then the cameras enter. 219 00:22:43.128 --> 00:22:57.976 And then after that it's, you know, you've made the decisions about the lenses and how those lenses are going to add character to any given story, how those lenses are going to react to certain kinds of light and the way in which the light's used. 220 00:23:00.197 --> 00:23:04.319 You have all of your elements and then you just have to harness that chaos, you know? 221 00:23:04.959 --> 00:23:24.552 at least that's the way i see it yeah and that's one of the most enjoyable things when you finally get to that point where it all sort of converges into that frame and then you are like you know it's it's why i often i often um 222 00:23:25.647 --> 00:23:27.188 it's like you're at the point of the movie. 223 00:23:27.348 --> 00:23:29.530 You're at the point of the movie coming into existence. 224 00:23:30.691 --> 00:23:43.180 Um, of course that all happens again later in the edit, in the edit room, but physically it's like everything after all the months of talking and you're doing it. 225 00:23:44.221 --> 00:23:50.746 And, and, and one of the things I often think is like, that's one of the reasons why I often like to look through the viewfinder. 226 00:23:51.967 --> 00:23:52.207 Um, um, 227 00:23:54.868 --> 00:24:00.613 because I feel you, you, you're witnessing the cinema being made in the moment. 228 00:24:01.533 --> 00:24:10.660 I often put me personally on, I'm like a, you know, using the camera, but filming off a monitor is just doesn't make sense to me. 229 00:24:10.681 --> 00:24:21.289 I've seen images of some cinematographers like with these beautiful film cameras, but they're kind of like looking at a monitor, which is attached to the film camera. 230 00:24:22.810 --> 00:24:23.911 I, I just like, 231 00:24:25.472 --> 00:24:32.057 I don't understand it because I'm kind of like, you've got, you've got the opportunity to look through the glass itself. 232 00:24:33.318 --> 00:24:40.143 And, uh, there's so much joy in that, you know, it's like your own private little cinema when you put your face to the viewfinder. 233 00:24:40.364 --> 00:24:40.644 Yeah. 234 00:24:40.844 --> 00:24:41.304 It's great. 235 00:24:41.585 --> 00:24:41.845 Yeah. 236 00:24:42.225 --> 00:24:46.368 Um, I guess it also means that you're closer to the actors. 237 00:24:46.388 --> 00:24:47.169 You're close to the action. 238 00:24:47.189 --> 00:24:51.032 If you're looking for the viewfinder yourself and you've got the camera there, you're right in there with them. 239 00:24:51.092 --> 00:24:51.332 Yeah. 240 00:24:51.372 --> 00:24:51.612 Yeah. 241 00:24:51.632 --> 00:24:53.274 You can feel you absolutely can. 242 00:24:53.294 --> 00:24:54.394 I mean, look, these days, I, 243 00:24:55.793 --> 00:25:04.680 because of the sort of epic nature of some of the films that I work on, and often multiple cameras. 244 00:25:05.401 --> 00:25:09.204 And so actually a better way to work is to be more global about it. 245 00:25:09.824 --> 00:25:21.274 And so I'll often sit back, operate one of the cameras, but do it remotely so that I can also see, have images of all of the other angles. 246 00:25:22.668 --> 00:25:24.371 and sort of hold it all together that way. 247 00:25:26.674 --> 00:25:29.418 But yeah, I mean, I remember 248 00:25:31.230 --> 00:25:49.582 Again, when I was first starting out, there was that thing of, like, you put the camera on your shoulder, you go handheld, and it's, like, you know, 35mm or 16mm camera, and you're looking through the viewfinder, you're looking through the lens, you've got the actor, and it's just the two of you, and three of you, whatever, and there's a sort of choreography that happens. 249 00:25:49.602 --> 00:25:51.783 You're responding to that thing. 250 00:25:52.203 --> 00:25:58.747 And I know that's, like, for a lot of cinematographers who, like, early on in their careers, that's the thing that... 251 00:25:59.648 --> 00:26:09.290 you know, they, that's, that drives the spark as it were, it kind of like people get very excited about that element. 252 00:26:11.270 --> 00:26:11.430 Yeah. 253 00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:11.990 Yeah. 254 00:26:12.150 --> 00:26:26.493 That idea of what you just said there about like capturing a kind of chaos with the camera, it really, it really reminds me again of the film we've mentioned Civil War, which I think of all the films you've worked on, I think particularly the ones you've worked on with Alex Garland, I think that maybe is the one, the key example of that kind of, 255 00:26:27.594 --> 00:26:52.853 capturing a kind of chaos because the story obviously takes place in this sort of divided in a divided America chaos is everywhere and you see that in the on screen in the image and because I was thinking about like what I want to ask about what kind of equipment you use what kind of cameras you use because I want to say Civil War was shot was it on the Ronin 4D was that what that was shot on which is a very specific camera I remember hearing you talk about it's like a chicken right is that you hold it like a chicken like can you explain that to me like 256 00:26:52.993 --> 00:27:15.949 what i like how you went about shooting i mean the only reason i caught chickens because it looks like one so um and you know it's like you're holding the body of the chicken and the head sticks up here and and if you move you you sort of walk along with the chicken its head stays

in the same place but its body's moving it's like it's essentially like that um we when we first 257 00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:31.327 When the idea, when Alex first conceived the idea for Civil War, he wanted to do something that was, you know, again, it felt like we were thrusting the audience into a real space and it was a real experience. 258 00:27:32.227 --> 00:27:36.009 But at the same time, we weren't making a documentary. 259 00:27:36.249 --> 00:27:37.790 We were making a movie that had... 260 00:27:38.690 --> 00:28:00.308 dramatic elements to it and also elements of surrealism and so we wanted to maintain that kind of sense of control over the frame um steady cam wasn't we at which point we were like neither of us wanted to use steady cam because we're both you know he kind of liked the idea we both share the same sort of 261 00:28:02.058 --> 00:28:05.503 aesthetic sensibilities when it comes to framing. 262 00:28:07.526 --> 00:28:19.142 And so he would rather that I was sort of in control of the camera as it were, in control of the comp, composing the frame and not going through a third person. 263 00:28:20.948 --> 00:28:37.664 So we, on men, we use this device called a Stabil Eye, which kind of did a similar, which did a similar thing where it's like a sort of small remote head that I can control the frame and be on comms and talk to the person who's holding it. 264 00:28:38.505 --> 00:28:40.186 So position them and all of this stuff. 265 00:28:40.246 --> 00:28:41.527 I mean, it's still a collaboration. 266 00:28:41.587 --> 00:28:46.292 It's still, you know, you're getting the energy off of them and everything's sort of working together. 267 00:28:46.612 --> 00:28:47.793 But there was still the way it moved. 268 00:28:47.833 --> 00:28:48.494 It didn't quite. 269 00:28:48.514 --> 00:28:49.534 It's not what we were after. 270 00:28:49.574 --> 00:28:51.836 We wanted something that was that felt solid. 271 00:28:51.896 --> 00:29:00.503 It was almost like you were throwing a crane into a situation that then very quickly could become handheld or feel like a steady cam or any of those things. 272 00:29:00.563 --> 00:29:09.550 And we some research was done and these devices were found, these cameras you're talking of and the 4D. 273 00:29:11.995 --> 00:29:16.196 And they weren't really on the market at that point. 274 00:29:16.236 --> 00:29:19.697 They were just being developed. 275 00:29:19.817 --> 00:29:27.358 Certainly, mostly as a sort of EPK-style camera, not really to shoot films with. 276 00:29:27.378 --> 00:29:31.139 I think they were very surprised when we contacted them and said, we'd quite like to have a go. 277 00:29:31.399 --> 00:29:32.480 Can you send us some units? 278 00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:37.761 And we want to just, you know, have a go, research it, R&D the cameras. 279 00:29:38.681 --> 00:29:39.102 And we did. 280 00:29:39.142 --> 00:29:42.206 And we found that they were really, you know, they weren't perfect. 281 00:29:42.286 --> 00:29:44.248 They were flawed in some ways. 282 00:29:44.349 --> 00:29:47.913 You know, the sensors weren't quite giving the things that we wanted. 283 00:29:47.953 --> 00:29:49.155 But actually... 284 00:29:50.964 --> 00:30:03.655 We could look beyond that because what they gave us in terms of the flexibility, but also the control that we wanted in that environment, it was a no-brainer. 285 00:30:03.695 --> 00:30:08.039 So 90%, I think, of Civil War was shot using those cameras, maybe 80%, 90%. 286 00:30:08.139 --> 00:30:12.603 And we used Venice cameras and more traditional cameras for other stuff. 287 00:30:12.623 --> 00:30:16.727 But I think what it was is that with Civil War, 288 00:30:18.216 --> 00:30:22.039 often we would look at, and it comes back to that idea of the frame and the chaos, right? 289 00:30:22.100 --> 00:30:28.025 So we would be looking at Stills, you know, a war photographer's work. 290 00:30:29.238 --> 00:30:48.105 and also a lot of news footage of that kind of stuff, but not, not sort of traditional news footage, more, more like stuff that's been captured by people, you know, in, in cities that are being bombed, leaning out of their, on their balcony, filming on their phone and a missile goes off over there on the right. 291 00:30:48.125 --> 00:30:51.386 And they, they, they, you hear the sound and it's suddenly captured. 292 00:30:52.006 --> 00:30:55.427 It's that sort of idea that, that things are happening outside of the frame. 293 00:30:55.447 --> 00:30:56.908 Um, um, 294 00:30:59.385 --> 00:31:02.987 and how you suggest that, you know. 295 00:31:03.007 --> 00:31:10.071 There's a very classic approach, again, of we create the thing and then we throw the cameras in, you know. 296 00:31:10.251 --> 00:31:22.078 We create the chaos and we had real tanks and all of this stuff, real military advisors and everybody just, you know, we would have a war room where we would discuss things 297 00:31:22.858 --> 00:31:36.668 the movement of the tanks and where the journalists would go, where the troops would move to without really thinking about addressing the cameras at any given moment until we knew what the action was, that choreography was. 298 00:31:37.348 --> 00:31:43.512 And then it was like, okay, we'll throw the cameras in now, make it feel like we're experiencing it for the first time. 299 00:31:44.974 --> 00:31:45.634 Like viscerally. 300 00:31:46.190 --> 00:31:51.672 Yeah, and also what helped was that we shot the film in a sort of linear fashion. 301 00:31:52.433 --> 00:32:03.278 So as was often the case with working with Alex, he likes to shoot kind of in a linear fashion so that, you know, the actors can keep track of what they're doing. 302 00:32:04.238 --> 00:32:30.784 from a story sense and ultimately civil war is like a road movie so it made perfect sense to do it that way so by the time we got to the end with the big battle sequence and the siege on the white house um everybody's nerves were frayed you know

it was chaos and um you know the actors were sort of having breakdowns and it was all it was all in a good way yeah yeah 303 00:32:31.784 --> 00:32:57.790 um but it all helps you all you know we were all exhausted it was you know but it it kind of really helped i remember you saying nick offerman he came into in that linear fashion he came in to shoot the opening of the film at the start and then he came back to shoot the ending where he where spoiler alert you know he gets shot and he was and he came and saw all you guys he was like what's going on here you're all fried he literally was the first shot of the first day and the last shot of the last day 304 00:32:58.350 --> 00:33:14.355 was nick offman wow yeah he bookended the movie it was kind of too it was almost too perfect in a way but yeah he got he was the one who got to see uh the full you know he was you know standing back he got the godlike perspective on it all 305 00:33:15.090 --> 00:33:22.133 I mean, zeroing in on that sequence, the ending, I mean, because there's so many fantastic beats in that ending, dramatic beats. 306 00:33:22.314 --> 00:33:31.738 I mean, I guess the key one, I mean, one of a couple, but I guess for me the key one is where Kirsten Dunst pushes Jessie out of the way of a path of a bullet and takes the bullet. 307 00:33:32.158 --> 00:33:39.201 And then as she's dying, you know, Kayleigh lifts up her camera and takes the shot of her corpse. 308 00:33:39.382 --> 00:33:41.843 And I remember hearing you say once about that scene, 309 00:33:42.703 --> 00:34:02.660 that like there is as a as a cinematographer there is something almost kind of protective about putting a camera up to your face and looking at something through a lens where obviously when when i first watched that i thought that's just such a cold event that's happening like the fact that it's it's almost about d it's almost for me sort of sums up the dehumanization of of the war that they're in but 310 00:34:02.900 --> 00:34:05.924 It was interesting hearing you talk about it, but there is something protective about that. 311 00:34:05.944 --> 00:34:11.770 It's like her taking that picture of her friend dying is actually like it's once removed. 312 00:34:11.810 --> 00:34:14.033 It's like, you know, she's protecting herself emotionally from that. 313 00:34:14.233 --> 00:34:14.453 Yeah. 314 00:34:14.553 --> 00:34:20.280 And I thought for you being a cinematographer, who is your whole job is cameras and lifting up lenses, looking for them. 315 00:34:20.380 --> 00:34:21.782 How does that resonate with you? 316 00:34:22.560 --> 00:34:26.923 I mean, it really resonated with me because it's like, it's such a, it's such familiar territory. 317 00:34:27.203 --> 00:34:30.506 You know, there is, there is always that separation. 318 00:34:30.826 --> 00:34:41.753 People talk about, you know, like I mentioned earlier, that idea that if you have a camera on your shoulder and, you know, often cinematographers will say, you

know, there's that choreography between me and the actor. 319 00:34:41.773 --> 00:34:42.594 And I feel like... 320 00:34:42.894 --> 00:34:43.695 We're connected. 321 00:34:43.775 --> 00:34:45.836 And there's truth to that. 322 00:34:46.256 --> 00:34:48.858 But ultimately, there's always a barrier. 323 00:34:49.198 --> 00:34:52.120 There's always this other thing that stands in the way. 324 00:34:52.180 --> 00:34:53.020 And it's that frame. 325 00:34:53.801 --> 00:34:57.783 And that frame is something that is being dictated by the way you think. 326 00:34:58.664 --> 00:35:03.447 And so your brain is sort of separating the elements. 327 00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:13.282 Um, and there's always a sort of very analytical part that I think overrides most of the other elements, the emotional elements, all of that. 328 00:35:13.542 --> 00:35:29.207 I mean, you know, um, I wouldn't be able to, uh, you know, conceive and execute some of the shots that I've done throughout my career had I been too emotionally attached to the thing that I was shooting. 329 00:35:30.987 --> 00:35:42.531 it would have affected my ability to frame the thing and create, if you like, a sense of truth, comes back to that word. 330 00:35:43.351 --> 00:35:49.193 So it's like you have to sort of bypass the truth in order to present the truth. 331 00:35:49.333 --> 00:35:49.593 Yeah. 332 00:35:49.753 --> 00:35:51.354 That makes sense. 333 00:35:51.714 --> 00:35:59.116 And it's a really strange and interesting position to be in because I often think about that with... 334 00:35:59.416 --> 00:36:11.832 you know, particularly with photojournalism, because it's right there at the sharp end of that concept that you have to remain... 335 00:36:13.959 --> 00:36:23.645 You know, there has to be a degree of coldness, I guess, for want of a better word, or a separation, emotional separation between you and the thing that you're recording or documenting. 336 00:36:25.467 --> 00:36:33.252 But the whole point is the reason that you have to get to that situation in your mind is because you're delivering truth. 337 00:36:36.694 --> 00:36:37.094 So, yeah. 338 00:36:37.114 --> 00:36:37.775 Yeah. 339 00:36:39.078 --> 00:36:41.039 like those characters, they're doing their job. 340 00:36:41.059 --> 00:36:42.940 You know, it is also a job. 341 00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:43.720 Yeah. 342 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:44.721 They want to do it as best. 343 00:36:44.741 --> 00:36:48.042 Like Kirsten is 100% committed to what she's doing. 344 00:36:48.783 --> 00:36:54.605 But then you see the sort of accumulative effect of that, you know, years of doing that job. 345 00:36:54.785 --> 00:36:56.106 The cracks start to show. 346 00:36:56.146 --> 00:37:02.629 And I think it's quite common, having read some accounts of other, you know, 347 00:37:03.989 --> 00:37:28.878 um war photographers specifically war photographers uh you know who've spent a life a lifetime documenting horrendous things um and how you know and then they go

home to their families and how they have to keep those things separate and um not that i'm equating what i do to that because it doesn't come anywhere close close to that but 348 00:37:30.278 --> 00:37:42.698 I often find that, you know, now, especially now, it's like you go into a day's shooting, especially if you're working on a movie, and it's a very, very long process. 349 00:37:44.207 --> 00:37:45.547 And there are a lot of ups and downs. 350 00:37:46.387 --> 00:37:50.848 There's a lot of chaos, there's a lot of egos, a lot of craziness that happens. 351 00:37:52.088 --> 00:38:00.270 And you have to dive into it head first in order to make it, you know, like I said earlier, force it into existence. 352 00:38:00.330 --> 00:38:03.650 And at the same time, then you have to sort of switch off and go home. 353 00:38:04.831 --> 00:38:11.832 There was a time when I first started, like I remember after Red Riding, shooting Red Riding, 1974, 354 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:17.521 which is still one of my favorite pieces. 355 00:38:17.641 --> 00:38:17.961 Actually. 356 00:38:18.841 --> 00:38:22.102 I watched it again the other day after an absence of 15 years. 357 00:38:22.142 --> 00:38:25.142 And I was quite, I was like, yeah, it's all right. 358 00:38:25.222 --> 00:38:27.023 You know, I did some crazy shit on that. 359 00:38:27.183 --> 00:38:29.703 And, uh, and, and, and it sort of paid off. 360 00:38:30.063 --> 00:38:36.405 But, um, I remember finishing that film and it was such an emotional ride. 361 00:38:37.565 --> 00:38:46.250 and for everyone involved you know the subject matches this it's like a sort of descent into hell but we put so much into it um 362 00:38:47.842 --> 00:38:51.304 And I remember being at home in the kitchen and opening the dishwasher. 363 00:38:51.364 --> 00:38:53.525 And for some reason, it triggered something. 364 00:38:54.165 --> 00:38:56.106 And I just sort of burst into tears. 365 00:38:56.667 --> 00:39:07.532 And I was like, is this the thing that's going to happen to me every time I finish a film that I put so much into that I'm going to sort of like, you know, cry around domestic appliances? 366 00:39:08.072 --> 00:39:09.213 Is that what's going to happen? 367 00:39:11.214 --> 00:39:13.175 Luckily, it's not what happened in the end. 368 00:39:13.215 --> 00:39:15.276 But, you know, I managed to sort of contain it. 369 00:39:15.316 --> 00:39:17.077 But over the years, you sort of like... 370 00:39:17.317 --> 00:39:20.660 you know, they call it, or they call it film blues or something. 371 00:39:21.281 --> 00:39:23.903 Um, post film blues, post shoot blues. 372 00:39:25.765 --> 00:39:27.667 I don't get it so much anymore, but, um, 373 00:39:29.692 --> 00:39:32.854 I know people who, you know, who get very affected by it. 374 00:39:34.114 --> 00:39:37.756 But it's nothing like war photography. 375 00:39:38.137 --> 00:39:47.402 Well, I remember hearing, actually, I think Paul Tom Sanderson once said about how with cinematographers, like, it is, it can be a tough life in this regard, because also, I think cinematographers, you know... 376 00:39:48.563 --> 00:40:09.322 tend to work quite a lot i mean like if they obviously if they're they're well liked and if they're good at their job they go from job to job to job and it can be quite a trying you know and testing uh job in some respects i guess maybe on a personal level as well as a professional one because you're just you're you're going from job to job and it's a bit maybe feels a bit nomadic is that fair to say is that accurate would you say i would say that's pretty accurate yeah um 377 00:40:11.762 --> 00:40:22.790 Yeah, because you don't, you never really know what's, I mean, if you're lucky enough, you do, but, but, um, you, you often don't know what your year is going to look like at the beginning of the year. 378 00:40:23.770 --> 00:40:29.715 Um, I've been in situations before where I have known and it, it feels good. 379 00:40:29.775 --> 00:40:35.959 It's like you often joke, it's like, oh, it's like having a real job because I know what I'm doing for the next 18 months or whatever it is. 380 00:40:35.979 --> 00:40:37.260 Um, yeah. 381 00:40:39.268 --> 00:40:50.553 But you do, yeah, I mean, irrespective of that, every production you work on is different. 382 00:40:50.973 --> 00:40:56.416 And every person you, you know, specifically for me, every director that I work with is different. 383 00:40:57.116 --> 00:41:02.178 So you're aligning yourself with a completely new experience. 384 00:41:05.140 --> 00:41:11.143 so not just physically you're moving to different places, but you're also emotionally having to move to different places. 385 00:41:12.343 --> 00:41:19.146 Um, because you're creating at the beginning of every production, you're essentially creating a family, you know? 386 00:41:19.167 --> 00:41:27.911 Um, and in that family, you're either going to hopefully get along most of the time and, you know, um, get through it. 387 00:41:27.931 --> 00:41:28.731 Um, 388 00:41:30.669 --> 00:41:34.211 But I think nowadays I've got, you know, I've got kids, you know, young kids. 389 00:41:34.551 --> 00:41:39.814 And that has in recent years sort of informed the decisions I've made. 390 00:41:40.534 --> 00:41:43.816 Because I know there's a window of time with... 391 00:41:46.237 --> 00:42:04.742 you know when the kids are growing up there's a small window there where it moves so quickly and so i've i've kind of had to make some some difficult decisions recently about you know films that maybe would have been something i would love to have done but actually i'd much rather 392 00:42:06.973 --> 00:42:10.974 work a different, a different thing so that I can be a family, you know? 393 00:42:11.355 --> 00:42:12.435 Yeah. 394 00:42:12.635 --> 00:42:19.818 And I think that's a really, it's a, it's, it's a hard thing to manage, but I think it's, you know, you have to, it's just the reality of it. 395

00:42:21.095 --> 00:42:23.396 And you have to kind of service that idea. 396 00:42:23.416 --> 00:42:27.917 You know, I don't want, I don't want my kids growing up thinking I was never there. 397 00:42:28.837 --> 00:42:35.239 And maybe when they reach their teenage years, they'll probably hope that I'm, want me to not be there. 398 00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:37.880 In which case, I will take that movie in Australia. 399 00:42:38.080 --> 00:42:38.820 It'll be fine. 400 00:42:39.921 --> 00:42:43.622 But right now it's like, you know, they're at an age where I just, I want to be here. 401 00:42:43.962 --> 00:42:44.122 And. 402 00:42:46.174 --> 00:42:46.554 So, yeah. 403 00:42:46.794 --> 00:42:47.495 Yeah, I hear that. 404 00:42:47.515 --> 00:42:48.655 Well, hey, you've got to look after both. 405 00:42:48.675 --> 00:42:51.457 I mean, you've got to tend to both sort of poles. 406 00:42:51.477 --> 00:42:58.061 I remember Eddie Marzan, the actor we had on, he once said, like, I've got time for, like, my job and time for my family. 407 00:42:58.541 --> 00:42:59.101 And that's it. 408 00:42:59.421 --> 00:42:59.882 You know what I mean? 409 00:42:59.902 --> 00:43:01.162 Like, I mean, I'm paraphrasing. 410 00:43:01.202 --> 00:43:02.043 I'm paraphrasing broadly. 411 00:43:02.063 --> 00:43:05.785 But I remember him saying something to that effect of, like, you know, I've got my family, my job, social life. 412 00:43:06.345 --> 00:43:07.025 Yeah, that'd be nice. 413 00:43:07.346 --> 00:43:07.786 But as well. 414 00:43:07.826 --> 00:43:09.207 But, like, you know, I don't have the time. 415 00:43:09.647 --> 00:43:10.787 It's about time as well, isn't it? 416 00:43:10.807 --> 00:43:10.907 Yeah. 417 00:43:10.988 --> 00:43:11.328 Yeah. 418 00:43:12.068 --> 00:43:18.911 zeroing in on one of your key collaborations, because you mentioned the way that you work, you create a family with each new job. 419 00:43:18.931 --> 00:43:29.496 I guess Alex Garland being one of the key directors you've worked with multiple times, and having a film family with him and the crew that you guys work with. 420 00:43:29.897 --> 00:43:32.498 What is it that makes Alex so special as a collaborator? 421 00:43:34.715 --> 00:43:39.762 I think really it comes back to this idea that there's a sort of honesty to it. 422 00:43:39.922 --> 00:43:49.115 You know, when we, in the case of Ex Machina, when we, which was the first thing we worked together on, yeah. 423 00:43:50.076 --> 00:44:14.297 i remember reading the scripts obviously being blown away by it but but also just really blown away by the sort of the economy of it and uh the economy of the of the words without you know i understood it visually almost immediately without it being described to me and that's a great skill in a writer and and that rarely happens um 424 00:44:16.877 --> 00:44:20.020 and I felt like he didn't over explain things. 425 00:44:20.681 --> 00:44:24.945 It kind of, there was a sensibility there that I just connected with. 426 00:44:25.045 --> 00:44:28.088 Anyway, when we spoke for the very first time, we talked about it. 427 00:44:31.042 --> 00:44:33.043 it didn't feel like much of an interview really. 428 00:44:33.063 --> 00:44:36.663 It was more a case of like, well, yeah, you sound all right. 429 00:44:36.863 --> 00:44:37.123 Yeah. 430 00:44:37.143 --> 00:44:37.884 You sound all right. 431 00:44:38.464 --> 00:44:39.044 Should we do this? 432 00:44:39.084 --> 00:44:40.044 Yeah, let's do this. 433 00:44:40.664 --> 00:44:48.866 And it was, it literally was a case of like, I liked, I liked Alex because he just gets straight to the sort of practical side of it. 434 00:44:49.266 --> 00:44:52.027 Because I think in terms of the creative elements, 435 00:44:53.453 --> 00:45:01.197 There's that sort of trust and knowledge that the person you're talking to knows what they're talking about. 436 00:45:01.677 --> 00:45:02.918 They have great taste. 437 00:45:03.798 --> 00:45:07.460 And it is, in this case, is a question of shared taste. 438 00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:14.783 And we shared that taste, the same taste, whether in some people's opinions it's a bad taste or good taste. 439 00:45:14.803 --> 00:45:15.163 I don't know. 440 00:45:15.183 --> 00:45:16.304 But I think it's good taste. 441 00:45:17.104 --> 00:45:36.895 um and it literally is that um so we i think it's i think it was actually uh kubrick who said something to the same effect of like good movies making a making a film is just a question of taste making decisions i'm paraphrasing because i don't really know what it was but ultimately it's like you know 442 00:45:38.502 --> 00:45:43.105 those decisions you make apart from the really practical ones are the creative ones. 443 00:45:43.125 --> 00:45:44.545 It's just a question of taste. 444 00:45:45.866 --> 00:45:54.791 And, um, yeah, I think, I think that's why it was successful, has been so successful on the films that we've worked together on. 445 00:45:55.031 --> 00:46:07.038 It's, um, you know, we, we rarely would read, we would rarely look at references from other films, for example, um, 446 00:46:08.705 --> 00:46:15.948 mainly because we just wanted the films that we've worked together on to exist in their own right, not to feel like anything else. 447 00:46:17.149 --> 00:46:23.471 Um, they needed to, they need to, to, yeah, be born on their own merits, if you like. 448 00:46:23.731 --> 00:46:24.872 Um, 449 00:46:25.513 --> 00:46:31.601 But there was always that underlying idea that, you know, in the case of Annihilation, for example, we'd both seen Stalker. 450 00:46:31.921 --> 00:46:34.886 We both knew that movie and we both liked Tarkovsky. 451 00:46:34.906 --> 00:46:41.134 You know, for me, Tarkovsky was a sort of film school thing that I went through and I think... 452 00:46:41.995 --> 00:47:02.064 you know hopefully every film student should go through because it's that it's that early stage in your creative career where you're like creative life

i was didn't have a career at that point i was a film student um where you're just absorbing as much as you can and tarkoski is one of those directors who uh 453 00:47:05.610 --> 00:47:19.593 is at the extreme end of allowing imagery to exist in its own right and for the viewer to absorb that imagery without too many cuts, without too much. 454 00:47:20.233 --> 00:47:24.254 The manipulation happens in the frame and the camera and everything else. 455 00:47:25.195 --> 00:47:30.436 The choreography of the actors, it all moves together, the design and the effects and everything. 456 00:47:30.516 --> 00:47:34.997 It's like you're watching poetry, visual poetry live, happen live. 457 00:47:35.797 --> 00:47:38.159 And both Alex and I obviously understood that. 458 00:47:39.139 --> 00:47:43.302 When we went into Annihilation, we never spoke about Stalker. 459 00:47:44.443 --> 00:47:45.804 We never looked at images from it. 460 00:47:46.864 --> 00:47:50.927 But we knew what essentially Annihilation is sort of a remake of Stalker. 461 00:47:51.768 --> 00:47:55.852 With big guns and a bit of 2000 FD grunge. 462 00:47:55.932 --> 00:47:56.633 Hollywood stars. 463 00:47:57.054 --> 00:47:57.314 Yeah. 464 00:47:58.275 --> 00:47:59.737 Hey, it works for me. 465 00:47:59.837 --> 00:48:00.938 I love that about it. 466 00:48:01.158 --> 00:48:06.344 And actually, I see a little bit of that Tarkovsky influence as well in stuff like men as well. 467 00:48:06.424 --> 00:48:09.308 That visual poetry kind of emotion happening in front of you. 468 00:48:09.368 --> 00:48:11.210 I see those kinds of shots and compositions. 469 00:48:11.690 --> 00:48:21.436 In the other films that you've done together, but particularly, I think, in Men as well, the way you guys shot the landscape and those trees and the apples falling from the tree and all those images. 470 00:48:21.456 --> 00:48:23.677 I kind of felt that as well in there, too. 471 00:48:23.917 --> 00:48:24.258 Yeah. 472 00:48:24.518 --> 00:48:25.778 I mean, Men's a funny one. 473 00:48:25.899 --> 00:48:26.679 I really like Men. 474 00:48:26.839 --> 00:48:34.243 It's like of the films that we made together, it's the sort of... 475 00:48:35.304 --> 00:48:37.325 It's like the runt of the litter in a way. 476 00:48:37.745 --> 00:48:43.667 It kind of like it was the film that came out through a necessity to make a film. 477 00:48:45.768 --> 00:48:50.690 In the circumstances that we were in, we were waiting for civil war to happen. 478 00:48:51.290 --> 00:48:58.152 We were off the back end of, you know, everybody coming out of the pandemic. 479 00:48:58.973 --> 00:49:04.215 And there was this desire to do something and do it in a contained way. 480 00:49:06.796 --> 00:49:13.842 I think it's the most different of all of them because in terms of the world building aspect, it... 481 00:49:14.927 --> 00:49:29.720 it sort of has this inbuilt aesthetic to begin with, which in this case is like, and it may not be familiar to American audiences so much, but it's like the Cotswolds, you know, the Cotswolds aesthetic. 482 00:49:30.141 --> 00:49:32.943 How do you take the Cotswolds and make a horror film? 483 00:49:33.123 --> 00:49:34.885 It's like, how do those two things combine? 484 00:49:35.005 --> 00:49:36.186 I struggled a lot. 485 00:49:36.206 --> 00:49:41.310 I have to say trying to with, with that aesthetic, uh, 486 00:49:42.291 --> 00:49:59.873 specifically um because it felt so familiar um and that's the first time we'd ever done that however it's one of my favorites because it's just so strange and it's just so it's got a real fuck you nature to it and shit and 487 00:50:00.273 --> 00:50:02.796 And Jessie Buckley is the heart of that, you know? 488 00:50:03.036 --> 00:50:03.837 Yeah. 489 00:50:04.397 --> 00:50:12.846 And instead of, you know, like most people do in horror movies, they run, they go running, screaming when they're, they're being attacked or whatever. 490 00:50:13.127 --> 00:50:14.288 She's much more like, 491 00:50:14.931 --> 00:50:16.352 No, fuck this. 492 00:50:18.074 --> 00:50:24.419 And I, and I love that, you know, and obviously all the men in it are just, just an absolute nightmare. 493 00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:33.727 Kinnear, you know, Kinnear, Jesse's, you know, lover, a boyfriend, whatever, all of it. 494 00:50:35.909 --> 00:50:40.573 But yeah, there's, I think again, the imagery of, 495 00:50:41.807 --> 00:50:47.090 there's a sort of poetry in it, I suppose you want, you know, we were looking for not consciously. 496 00:50:47.130 --> 00:50:49.031 It was just, again, it came down to a question of taste. 497 00:50:49.091 --> 00:50:55.154 It's like we walk, we go on our scouts and I take a camera with me and that's us, Alex. 498 00:50:55.194 --> 00:50:58.376 And we walk into a forest and we're like, Oh fuck, this is great. 499 00:50:58.436 --> 00:51:01.978 And you take the picture and you've got the image already because you can see it. 500 00:51:02.078 --> 00:51:02.959 It's right in front of you. 501 00:51:03.339 --> 00:51:04.319 It presents itself. 502 00:51:06.080 --> 00:51:08.642 As is often the case when I take stills, it's like, 503 00:51:09.302 --> 00:51:12.224 I don't look for the, I try not to look for photographs. 504 00:51:12.264 --> 00:51:15.126 I wait for them to come to me. 505 00:51:15.246 --> 00:51:23.130 But yeah, that one's a bit like, I like to see it as a sort of Tarkovsky meets Last of the Summer Wine, you know? 506 00:51:23.150 --> 00:51:30.835 So I'm like, that's the only way I could describe it with a bit of, with a bit of Lynch thrown in for good measure, you know? 507 00:51:30.855 --> 00:51:31.335 Yeah. 508 00:51:31.475 --> 00:51:34.577 That should have been the post advert for that movie, the tag lab, that movie. 509 00:51:34.677 --> 00:51:37.759 It's Last of the Summer Wine meets Tarkovsky. 510 00:51:37.839 --> 00:51:38.099 Yeah. 511 00:51:39.319 --> 00:52:05.233 yeah i mean yeah i mean where do you go from that i mean

so many um of those images are indelible i mean in the work that you and alex have done i mean i was thinking i was looking back at scenes that you've shot like iconic scenes that you've shot from those films and the other films that you've worked on as well with other directors but like zeroing in on back on ex machina like the dance scene with like oscar isaac and that red sort of pulsing disco lighting yeah i mean that's such a sort of standout scene yeah i mean do you remember the shooting of that 512 00:52:05.533 --> 00:52:06.115 Yeah, I do. 513 00:52:06.135 --> 00:52:07.478 I remember it like it was yesterday. 514 00:52:07.538 --> 00:52:12.690 I mean, it's like, you know, again, just for us at the time, it was just fun. 515 00:52:12.930 --> 00:52:14.554 It was just, we just wanted... 516 00:52:15.753 --> 00:52:17.934 We just wanted it to be funny. 517 00:52:18.454 --> 00:52:19.975 And it was funny. 518 00:52:20.475 --> 00:52:29.220 And, you know, Alex's direction was really kind of like, how do we make this like a nice, like, you know, it's like a disco scene. 519 00:52:30.120 --> 00:52:34.542 But there's also something that's just, it's just a bit shit, you know. 520 00:52:36.583 --> 00:52:38.744 And so that's what I did, you know. 521 00:52:38.764 --> 00:52:43.547 I mean, the way I see it is just like the lighting in it is just a bit shit. 522 00:52:43.567 --> 00:52:44.027 Yeah. 523 00:52:44.307 --> 00:52:49.652 because it matches what's happening with the choreography and the dancing and the whole nature of the scene. 524 00:52:52.234 --> 00:53:02.623 It's, it's, it really works because of, because of Donald Leeson's just incredulous expression, you know, that's what it is. 525 00:53:03.163 --> 00:53:08.888 And, and of course, obviously Oscar and Sonoya, but you know, Oscar, come on, man. 526 00:53:08.988 --> 00:53:12.051 I won't even attempt to do it, but you know, um, um, 527 00:53:13.091 --> 00:53:18.735 Yeah, again, I think it's like you try and capture the truth of the moment, don't you? 528 00:53:18.995 --> 00:53:20.896 Yeah, and the truth being this is a bit shit. 529 00:53:20.996 --> 00:53:22.577 Yeah, the truth is it's a bit shit. 530 00:53:22.878 --> 00:53:24.739 And so you want it to feel like that. 531 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:28.902 Well, it's an iconic scene. 532 00:53:29.062 --> 00:53:29.943 It's an iconic scene. 533 00:53:30.403 --> 00:53:32.444 And, you know, and there's so many of those. 534 00:53:32.484 --> 00:53:33.305 I mean, and even... 535 00:53:33.965 --> 00:53:55.147 just i mean because i have to touch on fallout briefly because actually we had the editor of uh fallout eddie hamilton eddie right yeah he was he's great he's brilliant and and um and looking back at that film i mean like so like because i'm all right in thinking that like cruise and macquarie visited you in the annihilation cutting room and that's kind of how that started was that that relationship like they came to visit you and then they kind of onboarded you 536 00:53:55.567 --> 00:54:01.070 Yeah, I mean, they didn't visit me personally, but they did visit the cutting rooms. 537 00:54:01.410 --> 00:54:04.371 That's true. 538 00:54:04.711 --> 00:54:18.317 I met with Macquarie and then Tom wanted to see something that I most recently shot, which happened to be Annihilation. 539 00:54:18.377 --> 00:54:21.839 So I think, well, I know that 540 00:54:22.699 --> 00:54:28.943 And again, knowing Alex and now knowing Tom, two completely different energies. 541 00:54:31.165 --> 00:54:50.017 And so it just amused me to think that, you know, security turning up to the cutting rooms and just like, you know, Tom coming in and Alex with his hundred packets of niggrettes and just them, just him showing stuff and Tom going, yeah. 542 00:54:50.477 --> 00:54:50.918 Yeah. 543 00:54:52.801 --> 00:55:10.011 you know and he was all i know is that he wanted to see something dark he was like show me the darkest thing and i think it was probably the scene the bear scene i imagine um because the bear scene you know that again was like addressing the truth of it um 544 00:55:11.857 --> 00:55:19.260 They go into this place and they have to take everything with them, including their lighting. 545 00:55:19.941 --> 00:55:21.401 And that's how it worked. 546 00:55:21.822 --> 00:55:29.325 And so, you know, there's lots of research done into what units would they take that can fold up neatly into a backpack. 547 00:55:29.765 --> 00:55:38.927 And I, again, at the time, I was staunchly not into using any kind of LED light because I didn't like the texture of it. 548 00:55:39.387 --> 00:55:40.408 It's slightly different now. 549 00:55:40.468 --> 00:55:47.009 I think it's sort of improved and I enjoy sort of mixing that with tungsten light. 550 00:55:47.069 --> 00:55:50.050 But at the time, I was very much in that world. 551 00:55:50.110 --> 00:55:54.351 And so we had these small units, which were tungsten units. 552 00:55:54.671 --> 00:55:56.771 So they got searingly hot. 553 00:55:57.051 --> 00:55:59.172 You couldn't touch them, but they look great. 554 00:55:59.912 --> 00:56:05.838 Um, and the scene, tire scene was lit with those, those little kind of work lights, if you like. 555 00:56:06.799 --> 00:56:13.666 Um, and Tom loved it, you know, I mean, well, he obviously did cause they offered me the job. 556 00:56:13.706 --> 00:56:15.788 So, which was great. 557 00:56:15.948 --> 00:56:17.069 Yeah. 558 00:56:17.129 --> 00:56:18.090 Um, that's dark enough for us. 559 00:56:18.150 --> 00:56:18.431 Yeah. 560 00:56:19.841 --> 00:56:20.503 Yeah, you won't die. 561 00:56:20.543 --> 00:56:21.906 There you go. 562 00:56:21.986 --> 00:56:22.287 Yeah. 563 00:56:22.367 --> 00:56:29.603 So not that I think, I think Fallout has much darkness in it, so to speak, but, um, 564 00:56:31.986 --> 00:56:32.226 Yeah. 565 00:56:33.567 --> 00:56:34.909 Yeah, I'm very proud of that, actually. 566 00:56:36.110 --> 00:56:36.290 Yeah. 567 00:56:36.530

--> 00:56:37.171 Yeah, I'd say. 568 00:56:37.211 --> 00:56:38.312 I mean, like, I agree. 569 00:56:38.332 --> 00:56:38.912 I know what you mean. 570 00:56:38.932 --> 00:56:41.514 Like, Fallout doesn't have much darkness in it, but there is a... 571 00:56:41.614 --> 00:56:50.102 I keep on coming back to the word luster, and, like, the blacks are really black and strong for me when I watch it, and, like, yeah, the sort of tactility of the image. 572 00:56:50.202 --> 00:56:52.444 But, like, again, I just keep coming back to the word luster. 573 00:56:52.604 --> 00:56:58.029 And, like, the bathroom fight scene, like that pure white bathroom. 574 00:56:58.049 --> 00:56:58.289 Yeah. 575 00:56:58.309 --> 00:56:59.270 Do you remember the shooting of that? 576 00:56:59.650 --> 00:57:23.742 i do i do remember that i remember the conversations leading up to it because originally the bathroom was conceived um the design of it was something which was darker a lot darker because they're in a club and albeit this you know it's that huge the glass place i can't remember the name of it yeah that's the grand palais in paris and um 577 00:57:25.845 --> 00:57:28.727 you know, it had that sort of clubby vibe to it. 578 00:57:29.527 --> 00:57:39.674 And so the lighting and in the design, in the concepts, was very, lots of pool lighting and the textures and everything was, there were reds and blacks in there. 579 00:57:40.274 --> 00:57:45.198 And I remember saying one of my first, I was quite being quite sort of cheeky actually. 580 00:57:45.698 --> 00:57:50.061 And I was just like, wouldn't it be great to have something that completely contrasted with the 581 00:57:50.661 --> 00:57:52.702 the environment that they're stepping out of. 582 00:57:54.003 --> 00:57:58.485 And when they cross the threshold into that bathroom, it's a visual surprise. 583 00:57:59.165 --> 00:58:13.792 And the surprise needs to be that they were expecting to be able to kind of like, you know, achieve their goal here and do it efficiently and use the shadows in order to do it. 584 00:58:14.112 --> 00:58:16.814 But what if that bathroom is the opposite of that? 585 00:58:17.215 --> 00:58:28.725 What if it's another challenge, another thing, which is like, which is a very much part of the mission impossible IP, if you like, of, uh, Oh shit, things just get worse and worse and worse. 586 00:58:28.745 --> 00:58:31.267 It's just another problem on top of another problem. 587 00:58:31.727 --> 00:58:38.453 And I think having, you know, I suggested this, just this white bathroom and I was like a blanket white lighting. 588 00:58:38.493 --> 00:58:39.574 So there's nowhere to hide. 589 00:58:39.594 --> 00:58:40.815 There's nothing you can do. 590 00:58:40.835 --> 00:58:40.895 Um, 591 00:58:44.062 --> 00:58:51.456 And luckily the idea was, you know, was taken because... And I think it became... 592 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:55.842 visually such a fun thing to then do. 593 00:58:57.863 --> 00:59:01.747 And we

spent, we, we were supposed to have five days in that bathroom. 594 00:59:01.767 --> 00:59:11.595 We ended up being in there for three weeks, which I'm sure Eddie may have mentioned, but kept going back to redo stuff and add more things. 595 00:59:11.775 --> 00:59:15.618 And I think it really benefited from that, that, um, um, 596 00:59:16.959 --> 00:59:21.323 But yeah, I just, like I say, I just love the idea that there was nowhere to hide. 597 00:59:21.343 --> 00:59:22.624 Yeah. 598 00:59:22.864 --> 00:59:29.269 And also what's also really important about that in terms of action is geography. 599 00:59:29.689 --> 00:59:33.653 And I was obsessed with the idea of... 600 00:59:34.694 --> 00:59:56.536 the audience understanding the geography of a space because what's the point if you don't you get confused in a fight sequence and i think that's quite common in cinema in action cinema is that um you know the best ones show you you have an understanding of the space in which the people are in uh and the worst ones don't really uh 601 00:59:57.797 --> 01:00:21.231 give you that element they just give you the fight element but not really anything else and it needs so much more than that it's like we were saying earlier it's like a fight scene to me is is like any scene in a movie it has to have a narrative to it and it has to be able to progress the narrative the bigger narrative and in this case uh in the bathroom scene in in mission impossible it's like 602 01:00:22.632 --> 01:00:43.641 here's the geography this is the problem here are the set of problems that need to be achieved you have one side you have the other you can see everything very clearly um you understand where you are in the space because they go in and they explore the space and we start with a wide shot and we hold those shots which is the other important thing too um 603 01:00:46.647 --> 01:00:47.027 So, yeah. 604 01:00:47.347 --> 01:00:47.568 Yeah. 605 01:00:47.888 --> 01:00:49.449 Yeah, so it all flows like cream, I guess. 606 01:00:49.469 --> 01:00:51.150 That is what I remember what George Miller said about action. 607 01:00:51.630 --> 01:00:51.910 Yeah. 608 01:00:52.170 --> 01:00:52.350 Yeah. 609 01:00:52.450 --> 01:00:54.672 I mean, hey, this has been such a fantastic chat, Rob. 610 01:00:54.692 --> 01:00:55.852 I mean, as a fan. 611 01:00:55.872 --> 01:00:57.393 I could go on, actually. 612 01:00:57.653 --> 01:00:58.714 Yeah, I could go on. 613 01:00:58.774 --> 01:00:59.314 I could hear you. 614 01:00:59.615 --> 01:01:09.440 I mean, I guess it's like a sort of, as a wrap-up question, because as I said earlier, like you've worked on, so last year you did Supergirl and Clayface, sort of quite quick succession to completely different projects. 615 01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:10.281 I mean, what can we expect? 616 01:01:10.301 --> 01:01:13.202 I guess I think Clayface is the next thing you've got coming out that you've shot. 617 01:01:13.262 --> 01:01:15.984 Clayface will be, and then

after that we'll be Blade Runner, yeah. 618 01:01:16.164 --> 01:01:16.745 Amazing, yeah. 619 01:01:16.765 --> 01:01:18.489 I mean, what can we expect from your work on Clayface? 620 01:01:18.509 --> 01:01:20.773 I mean, again, such a different genre to Supergirl horror. 621 01:01:20.793 --> 01:01:21.575 Like, what can we expect? 622 01:01:21.655 --> 01:01:23.037 Yeah, it's an interesting one. 623 01:01:23.057 --> 01:01:23.538 Um... 624 01:01:24.710 --> 01:01:33.333 Well, I hope, my hope and dream is that people are going to get something that's unexpected. 625 01:01:34.453 --> 01:01:46.738 But what you have here is you have a studio, not specifically, actually specifically a comic book hero. 626 01:01:48.118 --> 01:01:50.339 Coming from a stable of comic book heroes, right? 627 01:01:50.399 --> 01:01:51.980 In this case, not hero, anti-hero. 628 01:01:53.101 --> 01:01:59.011 um, so you have that element, but you also have ultimately the element that it is a horror film. 629 01:01:59.052 --> 01:02:04.542 It's designed as a horror film, um, a body horror, actually specifically, um, 630 01:02:07.237 --> 01:02:16.100 Our pitch was always kind of Joker meets The Fly, which is really what he is, what we hope it's going to be. 631 01:02:17.121 --> 01:02:17.921 Two great movies. 632 01:02:18.521 --> 01:02:21.682 And so you can only hope and dream to be like that. 633 01:02:24.026 --> 01:02:27.607 But I had a huge amount of fun working on Clayface. 634 01:02:28.527 --> 01:02:35.549 I think James Watkins is just one of the loveliest directors on the planet. 635 01:02:35.889 --> 01:02:36.829 And he knows horror. 636 01:02:36.869 --> 01:02:39.450 He knows how to do it. 637 01:02:39.530 --> 01:02:41.030 And horror is not an easy thing to do. 638 01:02:41.050 --> 01:02:45.151 I think of all the genres, it's my favorite genre. 639 01:02:45.251 --> 01:02:48.472 I could just, for the rest of my life, just shoot horror movies and I'd be happy. 640 01:02:54.653 --> 01:03:01.156 it's almost like it can encompass all of the other elements from all of the other genres. 641 01:03:01.276 --> 01:03:06.999 It's like the one genre that can do that, you know, and it can go anywhere. 642 01:03:09.340 --> 01:03:10.321 I think, I think... 643 01:03:11.748 --> 01:03:16.812 I'm hoping that there are people will be surprised, pleasantly surprised with Clayface. 644 01:03:18.953 --> 01:03:22.576 He's, he's a very unknown character, kind of an unknown character. 645 01:03:24.417 --> 01:03:29.241 His depictions have often been slightly comicky, comical. 646 01:03:29.321 --> 01:03:30.422 There is humor in the film. 647 01:03:30.502 --> 01:03:32.223 It's not comedy, but, um, 648 01:03:34.267 --> 01:03:36.730 it will be interesting to see the reaction. 649 01:03:37.511 --> 01:03:48.805 Because, I mean, there are times when we were shooting going... As was the case with men, actually, where I would be looking at stills from the previous days, thinking... 650 01:03:50.503 --> 01:03:51.924 what are we making here? 651 01:03:52.064 --> 01:03:55.926 Like in a good way, like what the fuck is this? 652 01:03:57.807 --> 01:03:59.928 So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. 653 01:04:00.109 --> 01:04:05.992 In fact, I go into post on it in a couple of weeks and yeah, I'm really looking forward to delivering. 654 01:04:06.312 --> 01:04:07.233 And here's the other thing. 655 01:04:07.393 --> 01:04:08.234 It's set in Gotham. 656 01:04:08.254 --> 01:04:12.739 So it's, you know, we were very much left to our own devices with regards to what that Gotham is. 657 01:04:12.799 --> 01:04:18.745 It's our Gotham as opposed to the Batman Gotham or, you know, Joker Gotham. 658 01:04:18.805 --> 01:04:26.193 It's like, you know, it had to be ours because with Clayface, it was, you know, it wasn't on the scale of Supergirl or Batman. 659 01:04:26.273 --> 01:04:27.795 It was very much a smaller movie. 660 01:04:29.461 --> 01:04:33.182 James Gunn and everyone else were like, we don't want this to feel like a DC film. 661 01:04:33.202 --> 01:04:34.342 We want it to be a horror film. 662 01:04:35.463 --> 01:04:36.103 And that was that. 663 01:04:36.263 --> 01:04:36.723 That was it. 664 01:04:36.763 --> 01:04:37.223 That was it. 665 01:04:37.243 --> 01:04:37.744 That's the brief. 666 01:04:37.804 --> 01:04:39.924 And we were left alone to go and do it. 667 01:04:41.445 --> 01:04:48.087 And so creating a Gotham on a shoestring, if you like, was quite fun and challenging. 668 01:04:48.107 --> 01:04:49.147 And I enjoyed it a lot. 669 01:04:49.487 --> 01:05:07.596 yeah hey hey you gee me up to see it i mean it sounds like you're gonna finally get to channel a bit of the thing as well but it's a little bit of the thing in there that body horror so oh yeah hey hey i can't wait to see it great well hey well thanks so much for coming on pleasure and uh yeah i can't wait for the next one which is say clayface