บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Rethinking Seminary for the Next Generation: Bekah Buchterkirchen on Innovation, Inclusion, and Formation

--> 00:02:10,980 Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be joined by 41 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:13,939 Becca Buckturkin. Thanks so much for 42 00:02:13,939 --> 00:02:14,460 being here. 43 00:02:15,340 --> 00:02:17,580 >> Speaker D: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. 44 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:19,900 >> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation. 45 00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:23,580 Is there anything else you want listeners to know about you? 46 00:02:24,860 --> 00:02:27,660 >> Speaker D: Yeah. When thinking about the conversation we're going to dive into, 47 00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:30,460 I was thinking it might be helpful for listeners to know 48 00:02:30,460 --> 00:02:33,060 that I worked, uh, for nearly a 49 00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:35,740 decade in Christian higher education at three different 50 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:38,380 institutions. Um, and 51 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,460 all during eight of those years, my husband 52 00:02:41,460 --> 00:02:43,860 has also been in seminary alongside 53 00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:46,660 pastoral ministry. So for the two of 54 00:02:46,660 --> 00:02:49,140 us, we have been deeply formed by 55 00:02:49,140 --> 00:02:51,990 theological education. Um, um, and we 56 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:54,990 also really believe in the local church despite all 57 00:02:54,990 --> 00:02:57,510 the chaos of the past several years. And, 58 00:02:58,310 --> 00:03:01,110 and so I think for me, how I try to always approach 59 00:03:01,430 --> 00:03:04,390 conversations like these is to not show 60 00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:07,349 up thinking I, I have the answers, 61 00:03:07,350 --> 00:03:10,150 but with a heart that's still being formed and is gen 62 00:03:10,150 --> 00:03:13,110 generally curious. So I'm looking forward to what we'll 63 00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:14,070 be discussing today. 64 00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:16,470 >> Loren: Absolutely appreciate that perspective. 65 00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:19,590 Do you want to share a bit about your faith journey, what that's looked like in the 66 00:03:19,590 --> 00:03:20,870 past and what that looks like today. 67 00:03:21,730 --> 00:03:24,730 >> Speaker D: Yeah. So I was really fortunate to 68 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:27,690 grow up in, um, an entire 69 00:03:27,690 --> 00:03:30,490 family, including all of my extended family that 70 00:03:30,490 --> 00:03:33,490 have known Jesus, walked with Jesus for decades. 71 00:03:34,130 --> 00:03:36,690 And so I like to say that I 72 00:03:37,170 --> 00:03:39,850 really feel like I have known and 73 00:03:39,850 --> 00:03:42,290 loved Jesus ever since I was a little girl. 74 00:03:42,850 --> 00:03:45,730 And it has just been this gradual process of 75 00:03:45,730 --> 00:03:48,450 getting to know him on a deeper level all throughout my life. 76 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:51,520 And, um, surprisingly, I didn't 77 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,160 really have this falling away sort of season. 78 00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:57,800 Um, and for me, I think, in 79 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,600 the past, looking back on it, I grew up in public 80 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,600 school my whole life until I went away to 81 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,520 a private Christian college. And that's when the 82 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,360 Bible just became very real to me and I 83 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,360 gained a lot of head knowledge. But then 84 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,280 I think where I struggled was, wait a second, now that 85 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,140 I have all this head knowledge, how is it supposed 86 00:04:18,140 --> 00:04:21,060 to impact my heart? And how do I. 87 00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:24,700 I, uh, don't know. It's kind of strange to me that I think a lot of the times when 88 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:27,500 we grow in our knowledge of God and the 89 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,460 Scriptures, a lot of time, pride can get in 90 00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:32,980 there. And, um. And so 91 00:04:33,620 --> 00:04:36,620 what it means for me to be a Christian now, it has looked 92 00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:39,270 a lot more like, um, 93 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:42,220 soul care. And I think with my husband having served 94 00:04:42,220 --> 00:04:44,660 in pastoral ministry, getting to sit 95 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:48,350 in front of people and listen and hear their stories 96 00:04:48,350 --> 00:04:51,350 and see the way that God has been moving in their life, 97 00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:54,670 that's really been a beautiful opportunity 98 00:04:54,670 --> 00:04:57,550 for me to try to experience not just head 99 00:04:57,550 --> 00:05:00,550 knowledge, but also heart knowledge. And how does it impact everything we 100 00:05:00,550 --> 00:05:00,870 do? 101 00:05:01,430 --> 00:05:02,630 >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. 102 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:05,910 I'm curious just because this is a theme that I've been 103 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:08,590 following a lot, even if informally 104 00:05:08,590 --> 00:05:11,430 with guests, too, as I've followed this 105 00:05:11,430 --> 00:05:13,350 sort of on the broader trend. Like, 106 00:05:14,250 --> 00:05:16,930 obviously, there's no, like, formula. Right. This is, I think, a 107 00:05:16,930 --> 00:05:19,890 mistake that often happens in some Christian circles is, 108 00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:22,770 like, we have the formula for raising our kids so they will not 109 00:05:22,770 --> 00:05:25,650 depart from the faith. Like, is there anything, like you 110 00:05:25,650 --> 00:05:27,690 think that your parents or your 111 00:05:28,250 --> 00:05:31,250 Christian faith context did, right, to kind of 112 00:05:31,250 --> 00:05:34,010 help you not have that typical, 113 00:05:34,010 --> 00:05:35,530 like, falling away? 114 00:05:36,410 --> 00:05:39,090 >> Speaker D: Gosh, I think about that often, too. Especially now, 115 00:05:39,090 --> 00:05:40,250 raising my own kids. 116 00:05:40,330 --> 00:05:40,730 >> Loren: Yeah. 117 00:05:40,730 --> 00:05:43,690 >>

Speaker D: Where I'm like, what? Okay, what was it? Because I have two 118 00:05:43,690 --> 00:05:46,690 siblings, and similarly, they both love 119 00:05:46,690 --> 00:05:49,650 Jesus. And, um, the only 120 00:05:49,650 --> 00:05:52,650 thing that I can think of in my own personal life is I like to 121 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:55,570 say that I'm a product of mentorship, like, very 122 00:05:55,650 --> 00:05:58,210 intentional discipleship, and my Parents 123 00:05:59,010 --> 00:06:01,929 didn't assume that they were going 124 00:06:01,929 --> 00:06:04,130 to be the sole tenders 125 00:06:04,770 --> 00:06:07,730 of making sure that they pass on the generation of faith. 126 00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:11,250 And so I had several men and women 127 00:06:11,410 --> 00:06:13,490 within our local church context 128 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,880 that poured into me and that were just 129 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,120 present in my life and I looked up to 130 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,880 them. And so because of that, I think it helped 131 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,760 me stay rooted when situations 132 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,160 arose where it would have been easy for me to stray. 133 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,600 >> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Thanks for sharing that. 134 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,800 What kind of, uh, spiritual practice do you find 135 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,040 meaningful today or help you sustain your faith? 136 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:40,560 >> Speaker D: M. Yeah, so right now for me, I, 137 00:06:40,770 --> 00:06:43,620 um, I made the really hard decision a 138 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:46,500 year ago to not return to full time work outside 139 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,340 of the home after my second, uh, kiddo was 140 00:06:49,340 --> 00:06:52,100 born. And I 141 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,300 think being a full time 142 00:06:54,540 --> 00:06:57,100 caretaker now to little kids, I 143 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:59,940 grieved how much my relationship with God 144 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:02,860 changed. Uh, my husband and I were married for 145 00:07:02,860 --> 00:07:05,820 seven years before we became parents. And 146 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:08,880 that gave me a lot of time to develop practices 147 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,600 and rhythms that helped me feel 148 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,440 healthy. And then once I 149 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,360 had kids, all of that just got thrown out the window where you're like, wait a 150 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,840 second, uh, I don't have time to just sit, 151 00:07:20,290 --> 00:07:23,280 um, in stillness and read scripture 152 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,080 or journal or whatever. So for me 153 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,720 it's been over the last several years, a 154 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,440 practice that I regularly return to has been 155 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,400 breath prayers. And those are 156 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,220 just, they're monumental for me. They're like 157 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:39,540 my lifeline throughout the day when I start to feel 158 00:07:39,940 --> 00:07:42,700 frustrated or like I'm losing my patience just to 159 00:07:42,700 --> 00:07:45,300 have some sort of scripture that I can breathe in, 160 00:07:45,380 --> 00:07:48,220 breathe out, and rest 161 00:07:48,220 --> 00:07:51,019 in the knowledge that God is with me, the Spirit is 162 00:07:51,019 --> 00:07:53,540 present, and I can continue about my day. 163 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:56,660 >> Loren: Yeah, that's great. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. 164 00:07:57,380 --> 00:08:00,300 Well, I had Becca on to talk about her 165 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:01,620 experience in 166 00:08:02,810 --> 00:08:05,730 theological education. This is a topic that I 167 00:08:05,730 --> 00:08:08,250 think is incredibly important to the future of the church. 168 00:08:09,050 --> 00:08:11,890 You know, broadly speaking, for our context 169 00:08:11,890 --> 00:08:14,410 in America's sake. And 170 00:08:15,650 --> 00:08:18,570 uh, we're undergoing like, obviously a, uh, serious time of just 171 00:08:18,570 --> 00:08:20,090 change and disruption with 172 00:08:21,130 --> 00:08:23,930 attendance, institutional 173 00:08:23,930 --> 00:08:26,890 stability. I mean, you name the disruption, 174 00:08:26,890 --> 00:08:29,360 like we're experiencing it. And 175 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,120 I've primarily approached this conversation just 176 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,240 from my current most, my most 177 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:39,280 recent situation or context being in mainline 178 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,440 prosthetism. But certainly I follow 179 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,600 evangelical institutions. And so I'm curious, like, 180 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,000 to talk about how these same dynamics or challenges are 181 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,920 playing out in those contexts. So, uh, I guess first of 182 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,760 all, you know, I think it's interesting like, like you said, like you worked 183 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,510 in a seminary Your husband attended it. 184 00:08:57,510 --> 00:09:00,110 So you really saw like both sides, 185 00:09:00,430 --> 00:09:03,310 Both sides of it very well. Like, 186 00:09:03,310 --> 00:09:05,910 what do you think? Like, are the, just to start out, like, what are the 187 00:09:05,910 --> 00:09:08,830 biggest challenges facing seminaries 188 00:09:08,830 --> 00:09:10,430 as, as institutions today? 189 00:09:11,180 --> 00:09:14,030 >> Speaker D: Mhm. Oh man, it's such a good question. 190 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:16,830 And I think the hardest part about it is like you're saying 191 00:09:16,830 --> 00:09:19,750 it's not just one thing which makes it so 192 00:09:19,750 --> 00:09:22,710 challenging, but a few things that really have stood out to 193 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:23,830 me are, 194 00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:26,910 um, I think, correct 195 00:09:26,910 -->

00:09:29,790 me if I'm wrong, but I believe the seminary and 196 00:09:29,790 --> 00:09:32,630 theological education was born out of the church. 197 00:09:33,270 --> 00:09:36,190 And I think over the years we have seen that kind 198 00:09:36,190 --> 00:09:39,110 of start to divide a little bit where 199 00:09:39,189 --> 00:09:42,110 it's no longer integrated as thoughtfully 200 00:09:42,110 --> 00:09:44,990 as it maybe once was. I know even for my 201 00:09:44,990 --> 00:09:47,790 husband, with, um, applying to 202 00:09:47,790 --> 00:09:50,670 different churches, and it's no longer, 203 00:09:51,070 --> 00:09:53,950 um, a requirement at many churches that you 204 00:09:53,950 --> 00:09:56,870 have to have theological training. And that has 205 00:09:56,870 --> 00:09:59,630 even been a really interesting shift to see. So I feel 206 00:09:59,630 --> 00:10:02,630 like at kind of like the broader level, it's 207 00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:05,589 churches who um, need 208 00:10:05,589 --> 00:10:08,430 to almost be convinced, like, why does theological education 209 00:10:08,590 --> 00:10:11,310 still matter and how can it actually 210 00:10:11,470 --> 00:10:13,070 impact our congregation? 211 00:10:13,750 --> 00:10:16,480 Um, because then what it ends 212 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,280 up lending itself to is the seminary that I 213 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,960 worked at. We didn't have a large endowment 214 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,160 that was able to offset the significant 215 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,440 rising costs. 216 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,000 >> Loren: Right. 217 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,080 >> Speaker D: And when that's the case, you have 218 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,920 to partner with the church to be able to say, hey, 219 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,640 what about cohort based models? Are you open to 220 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,520 doing that? Hey, could we use your facilities to be able 221 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,390 to host classes? Or if you have 222 00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:45,190 a pastor, um, or even 223 00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:48,230 like a person on staff that is helping 224 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:50,910 to care for your flock, um, would you be 225 00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:53,830 willing to financially contribute a little bit? And then our 226 00:10:53,830 --> 00:10:56,390 seminary would be happy to match that 227 00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:59,350 to make it more affordable for the student. 228 00:10:59,830 --> 00:11:02,710 So I think those are just like some of the 229 00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:05,510 initial things that come to mind. But 230 00:11:06,020 --> 00:11:08,660 um, yeah, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? 231 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:11,820 >> Loren: Well, that's good. Uh, you're kind of stealing our thunder here. So 232 00:11:11,820 --> 00:11:14,780 I'm glad you just hinted at, I guess you gave a little teaser there to 233 00:11:14,780 --> 00:11:17,780 cohorts and endowments. So we'll hopefully come back 234 00:11:17,780 --> 00:11:19,300 and explore that here in a little bit. 235 00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:22,580 Something I think you can especially speak to, 236 00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:25,420 I'm hoping, as you served, what Dean of 237 00:11:25,420 --> 00:11:28,340 students, right? Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. So 238 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:32,060 one of my previous guests was John Hawthorne, who wrote 239 00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:34,640 about, had a long history 240 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,280 or career in Christian education 241 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,480 and talked about how the, I can't remember 242 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,280 exactly how it said the current student or the future 243 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,160 student is not white, 244 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,200 not male. I Can't remember exactly what it said, but it's basically making the point 245 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,120 the era of 20 something white 246 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,000 guy student, uh, and I imagine 247 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,700 to some extent in seminary, uh, what 248 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:02,500 are, what are you seeing about how the student body has 249 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:05,420 changed, whether not just in demographics but also 250 00:12:05,420 --> 00:12:08,340 in age, in, I don't know, social 251 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:10,060 income. Yeah, talk about that. 252 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:13,180 >> Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up because, 253 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:16,420 um, in my role as Dean of Students, one 254 00:12:16,420 --> 00:12:19,180 of my favorite things that we got to do was we 255 00:12:19,180 --> 00:12:21,580 hosted, um, or we put on different 256 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,140 uh, questionnaires to the entire student body to 257 00:12:25,140 --> 00:12:27,940 be able to see, like what, what are the changes that are 258 00:12:27,940 --> 00:12:30,700 occurring. And if you looked back 10 years, 259 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,000 could see that exact trend where the age 260 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,480 of student has significantly 261 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:37,160 increased. 262 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:37,800 >> Loren: Yeah. 263 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,440 >> Speaker D: And this wasn't something that was just at our 264 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,440 seminary. Um, we were able to 265 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,320 see with the association of Theological 266 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Schools, um, what are the trends that 267 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,560 are going on nationwide. 268 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,160 And a lot of seminaries were seeing that. So even 269 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,200 at my local seminary, what was happening was 270 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,010 it was no longer like young, 20 something 271 00:13:01,970 --> 00:13:04,970 white, uh, male. It was actually our average 272 00:13:04,970 --> 00:13:07,570 student was a 34 year old male 273 00:13:08,050 --> 00:13:10,290 who was working full time 274

00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:13,970 and attending seminary part time. 275 00:13:14,450 --> 00:13:17,290 And so that was a huge shift. We also saw a 276 00:13:17,290 --> 00:13:20,210 significant increase of more female 277 00:13:20,210 --> 00:13:22,770 students that were attending seminary. 278 00:13:22,930 --> 00:13:25,850 But what was really fascinating about that was when 279 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:27,890 we asked a male and a female 280 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,040 seminary student like, what, what is your 281 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,000 career outcome? Or what's your trajectory? Where are 282 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,480 you headed? More often than not 283 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,720 the male students were, were able to have a clear 284 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,560 answer to that. And they said, this is exactly what I plan to 285 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,480 do. Our female students, not the 286 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,040 faintest clue. Because I think in the 287 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,000 churches there's not always a clear, 288 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:53,720 um, outcome for what women can do 289 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,280 with a theological degree. 290 00:13:56,060 --> 00:13:56,300 >> Loren: Right. 291 00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:59,100 >> Speaker D: And that was really fascinating to see too. 292 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:02,580 Um, but I loved the fact that we 293 00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:05,250 had so many, um, 294 00:14:05,260 --> 00:14:07,940 older students that were in their 50s 295 00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:10,820 and 60s that had lived these long 296 00:14:10,820 --> 00:14:13,420 careers and were now coming back and saying, 297 00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:16,300 I just want to grow in my faith and 298 00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:20,180 serve my local body. And that was really, really 299 00:14:20,180 --> 00:14:20,700 beautiful. 300 00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:24,710 >> Loren: Yeah, that's so interesting because again, that even matches 301 00:14:24,950 --> 00:14:27,750 what I've seen again in mainline context where it's like 302 00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:30,230 second and even sometimes, like you said, I think 303 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:33,710 third career. I guess if you're 50s or 60s, you could define 304 00:14:33,710 --> 00:14:36,430 it like as a third career, almost. Students coming 305 00:14:36,430 --> 00:14:38,390 back, certainly an increase 306 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:42,550 in female, non male. 307 00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:44,550 I'm curious about too, 308 00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:49,350 how you saw this challenge play out. I'm 309 00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:52,070 assuming it's a challenge. Again, you talked about that 310 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,280 the age increase of the 34 year old 311 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,680 male working full time. Whether 312 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,040 someone's male or female, if they're in their 30s 313 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,840 or 40s, they probably have kids or 314 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,480 jobs or responsibilities, relationships. 315 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,680 And I imagine that makes this whole 316 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,000 seminary experience a lot more complicated. 317 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,520 Like I remember even just, I 318 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,280 mean, I was in my late 20s when I did seminary, just thinking about, 319 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,810 I didn't have kids yet, but just like the 320 00:15:21,970 --> 00:15:24,970 strain on my marriage, relationship and there weren't 321 00:15:24,970 --> 00:15:27,960 kids in the picture yet. Uh, 322 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,610 I mean, obviously there's some kind of growing and 323 00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:32,130 changing during seminary. 324 00:15:33,650 --> 00:15:36,650 How did you experience it or how did your seminary 325 00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:39,450 experience like working with students and their families 326 00:15:39,450 --> 00:15:41,250 to help support the whole unit. 327 00:15:42,290 --> 00:15:45,090 >> Speaker D: Oh, man. Yeah, that was 328 00:15:45,090 --> 00:15:47,810 probably the number one thing that we heard from 329 00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:50,650 students. Piece of feedback was, I 330 00:15:50,650 --> 00:15:53,170 am juggling so much right now. 331 00:15:53,570 --> 00:15:56,530 And so no longer was it assumed 332 00:15:56,530 --> 00:15:59,490 that all of their attention was going to be fixated 333 00:15:59,570 --> 00:16:02,570 on the degree that they were receiving. Like, oh, come 334 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,530 for four years and then you'll be done. A lot 335 00:16:05,530 --> 00:16:08,450 of our students, like my husband, eight years 336 00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:11,570 in seminary because he's been working 337 00:16:11,650 --> 00:16:14,210 full time and doing this part time. 338 00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:17,620 Um, so it's, it was a 339 00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:19,540 challenge. And I think it's also 340 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:23,460 because of that reality of having 341 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,540 older students, they're not as willing to 342 00:16:26,540 --> 00:16:29,380 uproot their families and move to attend 343 00:16:29,380 --> 00:16:32,020 seminary. So then you have these brick and 344 00:16:32,020 --> 00:16:34,820 mortar campuses that are not being 345 00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:37,620 filled by a student body, which is 346 00:16:37,620 --> 00:16:40,580 another challenge of, okay, so how do you pivot 347 00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:42,580 to online theological education 348 00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:46,150 but not lose the importance of 349 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:48,910 spiritual formation? And that was a 350 00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:51,830 tension that we really saw where our faculty 351 00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:54,550 deeply cared about. I want to know who these 352 00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:56,630 students are. M. If we are 353 00:16:57,190 --> 00:17:00,070 giving our stamp of approval and saying they're going to go 354 00:17:00,070 --> 00:17:02,870 pastor, we want to

make sure that we feel 355 00:17:02,870 --> 00:17:04,470 good about their character too. 356 00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:07,710 >> Loren: Yeah, let's talk about that brick and mortar 357 00:17:07,710 --> 00:17:09,430 challenge because I just saw the news 358 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,319 yesterday or this week of a seminary. 359 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,839 I follow, like my next guest 360 00:17:15,999 --> 00:17:18,879 hopefully will be a, uh, professor from Luther 361 00:17:18,879 --> 00:17:21,359 Seminary in, I think Minneapolis. 362 00:17:21,679 --> 00:17:24,239 And I just saw that they're selling their campus or 363 00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:27,479 making plans to sell their campus. I 364 00:17:27,479 --> 00:17:29,839 mean, again, it's. Nothing shocks me anymore. 365 00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:30,879 >> Speaker D: Yeah. 366 00:17:30,959 --> 00:17:33,759 >> Loren: Just because, like you, you talked about like the financial 367 00:17:33,999 --> 00:17:36,890 challenges and feel free to, to go into this too, 368 00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:39,370 if you want to. But, you know, you mentioned endowments. 369 00:17:39,850 --> 00:17:42,410 Some schools have bigger endowments than others. I know 370 00:17:42,810 --> 00:17:45,730 my alma mater, Phillips Seminary, uh, shout 371 00:17:45,730 --> 00:17:48,730 out. They support the pod like they have, I think a fairly 372 00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:51,610 healthy endowment, which is very much 373 00:17:52,090 --> 00:17:52,970 strengthened 374 00:17:55,690 --> 00:17:58,370 their impact and their ability to be sustainable. 375 00:17:58,370 --> 00:18:01,370 Like I gave you a lot there. So respond to what 376 00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:02,330 you want to respond to. 377 00:18:03,370 --> 00:18:06,250 >> Speaker D: Oh yeah, I'm seeing 378 00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:09,210 that same thing. And I remember even when I was in that role, 379 00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:12,290 it almost felt like monthly is too strong. 380 00:18:12,290 --> 00:18:15,210 But certainly quarterly or twice a year you 381 00:18:15,210 --> 00:18:17,850 would hear the news. I mean even Ted's University 382 00:18:18,569 --> 00:18:21,530 where you're just like, what happened? And 383 00:18:22,330 --> 00:18:24,170 how did we not see this coming? 384 00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:27,730 Um, and how do we try to stay 385 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:30,610 nimble enough to where you can pivot 386 00:18:30,610 --> 00:18:33,600 and make those pivots so that way you're not having 387 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,520 to sell your campus or 388 00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:38,800 um, I don't know, like merge with another 389 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,520 seminary and. But I, 390 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:42,880 I don't know. 391 00:18:43,050 --> 00:18:45,920 Um, yeah, I 392 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,559 don't have a clear cut answer for that. But I think going 393 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,520 to the funding piece. 394 00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:52,090 >> Loren: Mhm. 395 00:18:52,090 --> 00:18:54,320 >> Speaker D: That's, that's really huge. And 396 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,160 again, I think it has to be this 397 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,360 creative opportunity to try to see like 398 00:19:01,810 --> 00:19:04,810 our students don't have thousands of dollars that they can 399 00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:07,570 pour into seminary education on their own when they 400 00:19:07,570 --> 00:19:10,570 know the role that they likely carry 401 00:19:10,570 --> 00:19:13,490 is not going to help them pay off their debt anytime 402 00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:13,810 soon. 403 00:19:14,050 --> 00:19:16,690 >> Loren: Yeah, let's dive into that more 404 00:19:16,930 --> 00:19:19,890 because I was just listening to a conversation with Chuck De Groat 405 00:19:21,170 --> 00:19:23,970 and he was talking about like when he's. It's funny because 406 00:19:24,050 --> 00:19:26,730 I looked up Chuck De Groat also teaches a Western 407 00:19:26,730 --> 00:19:29,660 Seminary, but it's the one in Michigan, not the one 408 00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:30,780 you're associated with. 409 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:31,590 >> Speaker D: Uh-huh. 410 00:19:31,670 --> 00:19:34,180 >> Loren: Uh, but he was talking about in this 411 00:19:34,180 --> 00:19:37,180 conversation like how he's encouraging students like 412 00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:39,660 hey, it's likely it can be bivocationality or co. 413 00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:42,140 Vocationality or whatever, you name it. 414 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:45,620 Certainly I think gone are the 415 00:19:45,620 --> 00:19:48,580 days in the vast majority context where you 416 00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:51,420 can expect to go out and get like a top of the market 417 00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:54,420 type job. So 418 00:19:54,420 --> 00:19:57,350 there's these dynamics of colleges in higher 419 00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:59,110 education is not getting any cheaper, 420 00:20:00,710 --> 00:20:02,950 while conversely like the pay is. 421 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:06,030 So let's talk about kind of like, you know, you hinted at earlier 422 00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:08,230 like these, these cohort models, what are some, 423 00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:11,390 some alternative models of higher 424 00:20:11,390 --> 00:20:14,270 education that, that you've seen or you think should be explored 425 00:20:14,270 --> 00:20:14,630 more? 426 00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:18,310 >> Speaker D: Yeah, I, I love the cohort 427 00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:21,070 based model. And that was something that Western Seminary 428 00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:23,110 did a phenomenal job with. 429 00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:26,530 And it really was when they went to 430 00:20:26,530 --> 00:20:29,250 faculty members and enabled them to have some 431 00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:31,810 creativity and to say, hey, what are you 432 00:20:31,810 --> 00:20:34,210 passionate about? Um, what's a 433 00:20:35,090 --> 00:20:37,850 program that we could develop that would be 434 00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:40,840 appealing to different students? Um, 435

00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,410 and so what they ended up doing is they would actually 436 00:20:43,410 --> 00:20:46,410 partner with specific churches, um, who 437 00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:49,290 were kind of larger based churches, but they said, hey, if 438 00:20:49,290 --> 00:20:51,170 you can find 20 students 439 00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:55,110 that was give, um, or take, that was around the 440 00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:58,110 number that would make it feasible for professors to be 441 00:20:58,110 --> 00:21:01,070 able to engage in it. And then the local church 442 00:21:01,150 --> 00:21:03,550 would be able to find those students, 443 00:21:03,870 --> 00:21:06,830 open up, in a lot of cases, their own facilities 444 00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:10,230 for our professors to come and they would meet once a 445 00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:13,070 month. Um, and all the rest of it was online, 446 00:21:13,710 --> 00:21:16,710 so it was a far easier sell to students as 447 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:19,440 well. Where it was like, hey, give us one 448 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,240 day a month where it's an eight hour day, it's very long. 449 00:21:22,780 --> 00:21:25,520 Um, but the rest of it will be online. But 450 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,600 you'll have this like, beautiful thriving 451 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,080 community. And another seminary I've seen 452 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,680 do really well with that is actually Denver Seminary. 453 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:34,400 >> Loren: Okay. 454 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,960 >> Speaker D: There's a whole group of 455 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,360 Christian female authors, speakers, 456 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:43,000 Bible teachers that are in a 457 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,000 cohort actively right now at Denver Seminary. 458 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:49,700 And the stories that they're sharing about just like 459 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,580 the life transformation that's happening has been really 460 00:21:52,580 --> 00:21:55,460 cool. And for me, I'm like, I want to keep an eye 461 00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:58,300 on that because I think that's going to be a really strategic 462 00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:00,460 model moving forward. And 463 00:22:01,090 --> 00:22:03,980 um, the other option that 464 00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:06,940 I know, um, a lot of seminaries are exploring 465 00:22:06,940 --> 00:22:08,860 are stackable certifications. 466 00:22:09,820 --> 00:22:12,700 Instead of having like this huge M. Div. Program 467 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:15,550 that takes five years, it's like, hey, what if you 468 00:22:15,550 --> 00:22:18,510 were to come in and you could get a certificate in 469 00:22:18,990 --> 00:22:21,990 like Bible transformation or whatever. Um, 470 00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:24,950 and a lot of times for students, all it takes is them to 471 00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:27,950 experience the fruit of what they 472 00:22:27,950 --> 00:22:30,950 receive from seminary that then they say, I want to 473 00:22:30,950

--> 00:22:33,710 continue on. So then it's great, let's just continue 474 00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:36,430 stacking. And if you stack this many, 475 00:22:36,510 --> 00:22:39,510 then you end up with an MDIV or you can 476 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:41,310 just get a certificate and call it good. 477 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:44,810 >> Loren: Yeah, I think that's a great idea because I think 478 00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:48,010 the market, so to speak, is trending in that model 479 00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:51,770 certainly towards like graduate certificates. Like, I'm even 480 00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:54,730 thinking of like Coursera and these online learning models 481 00:22:54,730 --> 00:22:57,530 where you get a professional certificate or a graduate certificate. 482 00:22:57,850 --> 00:23:00,770 And like you said, like, it's not like immediately 483 00:23:00,770 --> 00:23:02,490 taking out a huge student loan. 484 00:23:03,130 --> 00:23:03,690 >> Speaker D: Yeah. 485 00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:06,490 >> Loren: You know, committing five years, like 486 00:23:06,570 --> 00:23:09,450 four, five, six years, eight years. Like your husband. 487 00:23:10,050 --> 00:23:12,840 Uh, and like you said, if you're like, man, I cannot 488 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,400 finish this, like you can walk away with 489 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,880 something. Uh, again, 490 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,760 I have to give a shout out to my 491 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,960 alma mater. They've been exploring this model too 492 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,000 through different programs. They have. I think it's so good. 493 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,280 The other side of this I want to ask about because again, you kind of 494 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,200 mentioned it this Lack of integration with churches, which 495 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,050 I think, I think is a 496 00:23:37,050 --> 00:23:39,930 problem in many different ways, if anything, 497 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:42,810 because from my experience there 498 00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:45,450 can be a disconnect to like what the people in the 499 00:23:45,450 --> 00:23:47,890 pews are experiencing and 500 00:23:48,450 --> 00:23:51,010 where they're at versus like where the 501 00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:52,610 professors or students are at. 502 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:55,970 So I don't remember if we talked about this. 503 00:23:57,010 --> 00:23:59,970 I wonder, uh, maybe in our email exchanges. But I 504 00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:02,680 was thinking about, and I'm curious if you've had an 505 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,320 experience of this or thoughts on this. But like I was thinking about 506 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,440 years ago when I was in Bible college, like 507 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,880 the professors were often like local church pastors. 508 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,480 And obviously that's going to be variable based 509 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,440 on like the region. Like if there's a, you 510 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,280 know,

if it's in a small town, there can only be so many like local 511 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:22,520 church pastors. Right. 512 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,760 I mean there can be a twofold advantage, certainly more like, 513 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,400 obviously, A, there's integration with the churches. B, like you're not 514 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,240 necessarily like, again, for the cost of the seminar, like you're not like 515 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:36,650 expecting that professor's not expecting a full 516 00:24:36,650 --> 00:24:39,610 time salary. Like, what else have you seen? What else have 517 00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:42,450 you seen in that regard? 518 00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:46,970 >> Speaker D: Yeah, I, I think that's such 519 00:24:46,970 --> 00:24:49,930 a great selling point also is for 520 00:24:49,930 --> 00:24:52,850 students to know that, oh, the professors that I'm learning from 521 00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:55,850 have been church planters or they're an elder at their 522 00:24:55,850 --> 00:24:58,730 current church. Um, and they get 523 00:24:58,730 --> 00:25:01,530 it, they have a finger on the pulse to what the 524 00:25:01,530 --> 00:25:04,130 body is experiencing. Um, and 525 00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:07,330 I mean shout out to Western Seminary. That's 526 00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:10,330 one of their main, um, selling 527 00:25:10,330 --> 00:25:13,050 points is the fact that nearly every 528 00:25:13,050 --> 00:25:15,730 single full time seminary faculty member 529 00:25:16,450 --> 00:25:19,330 is actively involved and serving in their church. 530 00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:22,370 And one of my favorite classes 531 00:25:22,450 --> 00:25:25,330 that they held and my husband got to be a part of this was 532 00:25:25,940 --> 00:25:28,530 um, it was a professor who 533 00:25:28,930 --> 00:25:31,690 continued to serve for decades in youth 534 00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:34,410 ministry. And he would 535 00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:37,370 ask every single student to bring in a case study 536 00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:40,090 from their local church. And he would say, because 537 00:25:40,090 --> 00:25:42,930 none of us like attend the same churches 538 00:25:42,930 --> 00:25:45,930 here, it's a safe space for you to be able to 539 00:25:45,930 --> 00:25:48,810 come and wrestle through. Like, 540 00:25:48,810 --> 00:25:51,650 how do I navigate this? And what, how should 541 00:25:51,650 --> 00:25:54,490 I respond? So they were doing this in real time. 542 00:25:55,050 --> 00:25:57,930 And I loved when my husband came home from 543 00:25:58,380 --> 00:26:01,300 those classes and, and he would just say, man, this 544 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,220 case study was so helpful to hear. Like, 545 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:06,860 I've never experienced that before, but it got me thinking, 546 00:26:07,020 --> 00:26:09,850 how would I respond? And um, 547 00:26:09,900 --> 00:26:12,780 so I think being able to have opportunities like 548 00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:14,780 that or I've also seen 549 00:26:15,260 --> 00:26:17,500 sometimes it's a requirement for 550 00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:20,780 first year seminary students to have a 551 00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:23,700 pastor in their Local church that's willing 552 00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:24,540 to mentor them. 553 00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:25,250 >> Loren: Yeah. 554 00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:28,370 >> Speaker D: And, yeah, that's really cool, too, because it's almost this, 555 00:26:28,370 --> 00:26:29,890 like, apprenticeship type thing. 556 00:26:30,050 --> 00:26:30,420 >> Loren: Right. 557 00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:32,850 >> Speaker D: Um, where the professor has different 558 00:26:33,650 --> 00:26:35,890 points throughout the semester where they. 559 00:26:36,690 --> 00:26:39,690 It requires, like, the pastor to submit a 560 00:26:39,690 --> 00:26:42,690 form or maybe have a quick phone call, 561 00:26:42,690 --> 00:26:45,610 check in just to see how are they doing. What are you noticing? What 562 00:26:45,610 --> 00:26:48,370 should I be noticing and paying attention to inside the classroom? 563 00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:52,290 >> Loren: Yeah. The apprenticeship, uh, model is interesting because, again, 564 00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:53,240 like, there's, 565 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,360 broadly speaking, in our society, there seems to be, 566 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,160 hopefully, a growing need and hopefully 567 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,560 growing rise in 568 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,920 kind of the trades thing. And again, I'm 569 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,640 someone who really appreciates theological education, but also, 570 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,760 I think we can both agree there's some students who. 571 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,280 That's not their strength and still 572 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,830 are deeply called to love and. And 573 00:27:20,830 --> 00:27:23,350 serve others to the local church. Also 574 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:27,030 feel strongly about their relationship with God and theology. But 575 00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:31,190 I, uh, want there to be models, I guess, for them to be 576 00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:34,110 like, I don't know, value is the right word, 577 00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:37,110 but recognized. Um, certified. That's 578 00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:38,950 not the right word, but hopefully. You get what I'm saying. 579 00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:42,510 >> Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. And I think 580 00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:44,710 that's one of the unique 581 00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:47,870 opportunities that seminary professors get 582 00:27:47,870 --> 00:27:50,560 to enter into with students. I remember one 583 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,680 faculty member, he actually really struggled 584 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,400 with the word calling because he said, I see 585 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,280 so many of these students come in and they say, I'm 586 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,160 called to be a senior pastor. And 587 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,240

he's like, wow, well, what 588 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,000 happens if you're not actually very 589 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,000 skilled in it or it's not something that 590 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,970 I see for you in the future? And so, um, 591 00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:16,600 to their credit, they were willing to have those hard 592 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,570 conversations. Um, and it wasn't just like a. Ah, 593 00:28:19,570 --> 00:28:22,420 let me tell you, this will never be the case for you, but 594 00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:25,340 more so, hey, let's take a step back. And what is that 595 00:28:25,340 --> 00:28:27,580 rooted in? And what is your first 596 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:30,580 calling? Uh, it's to love God and love 597 00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:33,420 others. And let's just take it one step at a time. 598 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:36,260 >> Loren: Yeah. I'm called to make, you know, 200k as a 599 00:28:36,260 --> 00:28:37,180 pastor, so. 600 00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:37,539 >> Speaker D: Right. 601 00:28:37,539 --> 00:28:39,340 >> Loren: I'm gonna speak that into existence. 602 00:28:40,060 --> 00:28:40,580 >> Speaker D: Uh-huh. 603 00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:43,340 >> Loren: Uh, it reminds me of sort of how we got connected. 604 00:28:43,580 --> 00:28:46,140 Is it Ariana? Is that how you say her name? 605 00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:48,840 Previous guest, Ariana Malloy, who 606 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,080 really recommend her book. Uh, I'll 607 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,000 make sure to link in the show notes, our conversation, 608 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,880 but she talked about that. I can't 609 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,360 remember the word calling. Burnout or calling shame. 610 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,240 When your title doesn't 611 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,200 necessarily 612 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,120 attach or correlate with what you're 613 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,720 doing or your calling. I should say and 614 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,920 how to bridge that disconnect. I thought that was so helpful. And again, 615 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,820 I think that's where that's the 616 00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:20,700 challenge, I suppose, of these online learning models where it's 617 00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:23,660 just like fill a discussion post, 618 00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:26,460 look at slideshows and write 619 00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:29,320 papers. And again, that's very m. 620 00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:30,700 Boiled down. But 621 00:29:32,379 --> 00:29:33,900 in the online learning models, 622 00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:38,300 what have you seen? What works well to kind of stay. Because 623 00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:41,380 like you said, professors want to invest in students. 624 00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:44,240 They don't want to just read discussion posts. I 625 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:44,840 can imagine. 626 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,080 >> Speaker D: Oh, absolutely. 627 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,040 Well, briefly, uh, Ariana's book Healthy Calling 628 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,040 is phenomenal. And uh, I've talked to my 629 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,720 husband about it a lot where he's like, as a pastor, 630 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,600 that disconnect that can happen between. 631 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920 I used to feel called to this, but now I'm so burnt 632 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,920 out. Like, how do you bridge that gap? So, um, she 633 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,800 is a dear friend of mine. Um, so I'm so glad that 634 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,080 she connected us. But, um, thinking 635 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,040 about online education, like how, how 636 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,000 do you do that? Well, and I think a lot 637 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,920 of it is students who are willing 638 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,640 to show up and actively participate, even 639 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,720 in a zoom format. And I know that there's 640 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,600 this whole like asynchronous versus synchronous 641 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,120 learning and the broader 642 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,040 that your student body gets you, you start to 643 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,920 encounter significant challenges with people who are halfway 644 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,600 across the world in different time zones. So it 645 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,560 becomes more and more challenging. But I 646 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,300 do think that there's a way to do it. Um, 647 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,180 and even like how you and I are connecting right now via, 648 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:51,160 uh, this platform, it's like, okay, 649 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,960 you can start to get a sense for who is this 650 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,280 person and are they who they say they are? 651 00:30:56,780 --> 00:30:59,710 Um, so I think it's possible. I know at, 652 00:30:59,710 --> 00:31:02,680 uh, our seminary, what they offered was, 653 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,680 they offered a, it was one week, four times 654 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,250 a year. They called it Threshold. And they would 655 00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:11,130 invite students who were distance learners 656 00:31:11,130 --> 00:31:14,010 to come to campus and have an in 657 00:31:14,010 --> 00:31:16,970 person experience where they would receive 658 00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:19,850 credit for their courses. And it was kind of an intensive 659 00:31:19,850 --> 00:31:22,850 process. But I know even for myself, when I was in 660 00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:25,050 grad school, I actually went to, um, 661 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:27,930 Gonzaga University. As an online student. 662 00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:28,690 >> Loren: Sure, yeah. 663 00:31:28,690 --> 00:31:31,690 >> Speaker D: And that was a requirement. Was, hey, it's 664 00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:34,490 a fully online program. However, during 665 00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:37,450 your second year, you have to be willing to come to 666 00:31:37,450 --> 00:31:40,410

campus, um, for a week long intensive. 667 00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:43,730 So that way you could get to meet the professors face to 668 00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:46,450 face. And I actually, I really like that 669 00:31:46,450 --> 00:31:49,410 model. Um, I know it's, it can be a deterrent 670 00:31:49,410 --> 00:31:51,930 to some students who are like, that's so expensive. 671 00:31:52,420 --> 00:31:55,210 Um, but there's There's a great value to it. 672 00:31:56,170 --> 00:31:59,170 >> Loren: Yeah, I've got to agree with you. When I was starting 673 00:31:59,170 --> 00:32:02,090 seminary, I did online. In the first semester I didn't 674 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:05,740 go to the campus. And the second, like, I didn't feel like. 675 00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:08,300 I didn't feel like I was really a seminary student 676 00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:10,860 until that second 677 00:32:10,940 --> 00:32:13,900 semester where I did a week long 678 00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:16,540 intensive. Like that's when it hit home. 679 00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:19,780 I'm thinking of another example. Like I think 680 00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:22,140 it's Southern Seminary. 681 00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:25,340 Can't remember. South. Can't remember. It's not Southern 682 00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:28,290 Seminary. It's like somewhere in Tennessee there's 683 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:30,690 like a South. Something 684 00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:34,000 Southwestern. No, because it's like 685 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,930 uh, it's like a. Anyway, they invited 686 00:32:36,930 --> 00:32:39,570 me to like speak up. They just do like these weekly 687 00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:42,690 like zoom cohorts where they have a speaker 688 00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:46,410 like once a week and students can pop in and get credit 689 00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:49,050 for popping in and engaging. Like you said in the 690 00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:51,170 conversation or the. What happens? 691 00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:54,930 Uh, like I said, another example I think of what you're talking about 692 00:32:55,010 --> 00:32:57,850 of these Zoom or online participation 693 00:32:57,850 --> 00:32:58,450 cohorts. 694 00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:01,380 >> Speaker D: Oh, I love that. That's so creative too. 695 00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,100 Mhm. 696 00:33:05,380 --> 00:33:08,180 >> Loren: I want to ask this too because I think it's related. You mentioned 697 00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:11,180 the challenges of jobs and 698 00:33:11,180 --> 00:33:13,780 different time zones and family responsibilities, 699 00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:17,540 socioeconomic demographics, so to speak. 700 00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:21,140 What do you think schools, 701 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:24,340 what have you seen? What do you think schools still need to do? 702 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,000 Let's talk about this way, like to help 703 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,920 these non traditional students. 704 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,000 >> Speaker D: Yeah. Oh man. 705 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,760 I really feel like a lot of it kind of has to go back 706 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320 to de 707 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,920 centering the western white male voice, 708 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,280 um, and seeing like what can we learn from the global 709 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,120 church. And a lot of that has to start at 710 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,760 the m 711 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,720 leadership level. Like being willing 712 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,280 to invite people who represent 713 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,240 the student body and faculty members who 714 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,360 more so reflect the student body. Because 715 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,520 really you can shape a classroom, 716 00:34:07,140 --> 00:34:10,080 um, based on the type of faculty that 717 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,000 you have. And I think 718 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,800 that's something that I would love to see just continue 719 00:34:16,769 --> 00:34:19,489 in that direction. Um, and 720 00:34:20,849 --> 00:34:23,809 I don't know if this is exactly, um, related 721 00:34:23,889 --> 00:34:26,769 or not, but something that's coming to mind is even trying 722 00:34:26,769 --> 00:34:29,329 to enhance like lay education, 723 00:34:29,889 --> 00:34:32,289 lay theological education for people 724 00:34:33,009 --> 00:34:35,969 who are leading Bible studies in 725 00:34:35,969 --> 00:34:38,449 their church or maybe their community group leaders. 726 00:34:39,249 --> 00:34:41,889 And they love deep 727 00:34:42,619 --> 00:34:45,299 study. But for them they're like, I would never go to 728 00:34:45,299 --> 00:34:48,299 seminary because I work full time and it's, it's 729 00:34:48,299 --> 00:34:51,219 not in the cards for me. Um, and that is 730 00:34:51,219 --> 00:34:53,979 something where I feel like the Bible project has done a 731 00:34:53,979 --> 00:34:56,739 phenomenal job. Um, as kind of 732 00:34:56,739 --> 00:34:59,179 this. They, they offer 733 00:34:59,419 --> 00:35:02,379 seminary level education. Um, but 734 00:35:02,379 --> 00:35:05,059 it's at a very reduced cost or even 735 00:35:05,059 --> 00:35:08,059 free. So I don't know. I wonder if 736 00:35:08,059 --> 00:35:10,939 there's an opportunity for seminaries to start trying to think 737 00:35:11,019 --> 00:35:12,779 strategically along those lines. 738 00:35:13,410 --> 00:35:15,570 >> Loren: I think that's a great point, because if we think about 739 00:35:17,170 --> 00:35:20,050 the traditional. I shouldn't say traditional. What's become 740 00:35:20,290 --> 00:35:22,978 the church model, I suppose, over the last 10, 741 00:35:23,042 --> 00:35:25,690 20 years? It's just like that one hour Sunday 742 00:35:25,690 --> 00:35:28,490 morning, maybe you're in a small group, but the 743 00:35:28,490 --> 00:35:31,370 whole traditional Sunday school and then 744 00:35:31,370 --> 00:35:33,810 the worship service where you're getting 745 00:35:34,290 --> 00:35:37,090 In Sunday

school, 30, 40 minutes of 746 00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:41,580 biblical education discussion, like, that's not happening. 747 00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:44,740 Like, probably in a small group. Right. It's like, let's talk about 748 00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:47,420 this verse for, you know, 15, 20 749 00:35:47,420 --> 00:35:50,140 minutes. Maybe there's. Maybe there's some kind of 750 00:35:50,140 --> 00:35:53,060 curriculum. But again, I really like your idea about some 751 00:35:53,060 --> 00:35:54,779 kind of lay education program 752 00:35:56,540 --> 00:35:59,380 and, uh, how that could. Oh, and then again, like, your 753 00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:01,820 point about the Bible project, 754 00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:04,060 like, certainly, I think 755 00:36:05,940 --> 00:36:08,820 seminaries, like, they have, like, what's the, 756 00:36:08,820 --> 00:36:10,980 what's the business word? Like, they have the, the market. 757 00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:15,260 Like, they have the, the resources to be able, like, do 758 00:36:15,260 --> 00:36:18,060 that. Well, like, I can't think of, like, the, the businessy 759 00:36:18,060 --> 00:36:20,940 word, so to speak, but, like, uh, they should be able to, 760 00:36:20,940 --> 00:36:23,780 like, again, it's just kind of thinking outside the box, thinking, 761 00:36:23,860 --> 00:36:26,820 you know, long term, how can we engage with different 762 00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:29,700 people in different ways because of, like you said, these different challenges. 763 00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:33,350 >> Speaker D: Yeah, I know. You just reminded me. There were two 764 00:36:33,350 --> 00:36:35,870 professors, um, that were so 765 00:36:35,870 --> 00:36:38,710 creative, and they came up with a podcast 766 00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:39,830 that they wanted to start. 767 00:36:39,990 --> 00:36:40,430 >> Loren: Yeah. 768 00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:43,430 >> Speaker D: And they titled it Food Trucks in Babylon because 769 00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:46,469 our seminary is based in Portland. And so 770 00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:49,270 it was a lot of, like, we are in a 771 00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:50,790 very interesting, 772 00:36:51,570 --> 00:36:53,990 uh, place, culturally speaking, 773 00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:57,000 where we're still, like, we have a 774 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,440 seminary on a hill inside of Portland, 775 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,680 which was really fascinating. And so they said, what if we just 776 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,120 got professors to be able to talk through, 777 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,480 like, what are some of these challenges that we're facing alongside 778 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,160 the church? And how do you do that? Well, and it was 779 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,120 really fun because it ended up becoming this really 780 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,920 cool admissions piece too, where our 781 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,760 admissions team, when talking to students who were like, well, 782 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,560

I kind of want to get a feel for what's it like to be a student 783 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,760 there. It was like, hey, check out our podcast. 784 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:25,200 >> Loren: Yes. 785 00:37:25,290 --> 00:37:27,810 >> Speaker D: Um, and so I feel like, yeah, just 786 00:37:27,810 --> 00:37:30,490 infusing creativity with that 787 00:37:30,650 --> 00:37:33,570 could be really cool. But going back to the piece 788 00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:36,370 about, um, churches, when you 789 00:37:36,370 --> 00:37:39,130 were saying, no longer is it, like, oh, 45 790 00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:41,850 minutes to an hour of deep, rich theological 791 00:37:41,850 --> 00:37:44,730 Study, um, the church that 792 00:37:44,730 --> 00:37:47,610 my husband is currently serving in, they have even seen 793 00:37:47,610 --> 00:37:50,570 themselves a trend of like, no longer is 794 00:37:50,570 --> 00:37:53,010 it a standard practice for most 795 00:37:53,010 --> 00:37:55,930 churchgoers to attend every single Sunday 796 00:37:56,490 --> 00:37:56,890 month. 797 00:37:56,970 --> 00:37:57,370 >> Loren: Right. 798 00:37:58,050 --> 00:38:00,930 >> Speaker D: Our average that we're seeing is a lot of 799 00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:03,850 people attend one or two Sundays 800 00:38:03,850 --> 00:38:04,610 out of a month. 801 00:38:04,780 --> 00:38:05,280 >> Loren: Mhm. 802 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,250 >> Speaker D: So then it's kind of taking even a further step 803 00:38:08,250 --> 00:38:11,250 back. Um, yeah. Where you're like, okay, 804 00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:12,450 things are shifting. 805 00:38:12,850 --> 00:38:14,930 >> Loren: Yeah. I was recently talking to a UMC 806 00:38:15,970 --> 00:38:18,850 denominational leader in Louisiana. He's saying like, his data 807 00:38:18,850 --> 00:38:21,570 is like one out of every six weeks, which is just, 808 00:38:21,810 --> 00:38:24,640 you know, it's not. I would have said once a 809 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,640 month. But I mean, one out of, uh, six weeks doesn't shock 810 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,440 me just because again, what we're seeing from 811 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,360 trends, I, uh, gotta give a shameless plug there. I guess 812 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,880 this too. Like, I do podcast producing. So 813 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,400 if you're, if you're seminary, another seminary wants to 814 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,360 get a podcast back in action, I can help 815 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:43,960 you. Shameless plug over. 816 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,680 Uh, last question here before we take a break. 817 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,040 What do you think we're not talking about 818 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,040 enough in theological education that we need to talk 819 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:53,640 about more? 820 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,600 >> Speaker D: Ooh, this, um, is 821 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,520 something that may just be like a personal piece for me 822 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,280 because I've worked a

lot in marketing as 823 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,960 well, and I think it's poor digital 824 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,440 presence, um, where 825 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,320 a lot of theological education 826 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:14,600 is like 10 to 20 years 827 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,840 behind the times, digitally speaking. 828 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,440 And um, so then I think that's a 829 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,640 massive turnoff to students where, 830 00:39:23,830 --> 00:39:25,960 um, there's clunky websites, 831 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,920 there's unclear admissions processes. 832 00:39:29,590 --> 00:39:32,360 Um, sometimes when you get inside of 833 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,040 student portals, there's just a lot of 834 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,920 confusion of like, I'm sorry, how do I submit 835 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,760 a project? And so 836 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,560 that, that is something that I feel like 837 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,080 I understand the financial component to that, 838 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,720 which is why it's challenging to be able to change those things. 839 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,760 But I do feel like in today's day and culture, 840 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,700 it's something that uh, we need prioritize to be 841 00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:58,100 able to meet the students where they're at and try to make it 842 00:39:58,420 --> 00:40:00,820 as easy as possible for them to, 843 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:02,260 um, attend. 844 00:40:02,820 --> 00:40:05,620 >> Loren: Well, I'm just glad you didn't say like a better social media presence. 845 00:40:06,420 --> 00:40:09,300 Oh, maybe, maybe you're 846 00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:12,220 thinking that. But I could, I could do 847 00:40:12,220 --> 00:40:14,940 without like seminary posting regularly on 848 00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:17,500 TikTok. Like I just. Right, that's another 849 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,100 conversation. Uh, I appreciate your. 850 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:22,820 >> Speaker D: You don't like faculty members doing TikTok dances? 851 00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:25,770 >> Loren: You know, I don't. Maybe I'm just too snobby. 852 00:40:25,770 --> 00:40:28,450 Like, I don't need My professor doing 853 00:40:28,450 --> 00:40:31,210 TikTok dances. And I think maybe 854 00:40:31,210 --> 00:40:34,170 I'm soapboxing here. But I think, you know, I 855 00:40:34,170 --> 00:40:37,050 think some spaces, right, like, they just don't lend themselves 856 00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:39,770 to like. I 857 00:40:39,770 --> 00:40:42,530 remember five, seven years ago, I was starting a new church and 858 00:40:42,530 --> 00:40:45,330 I. I bought this, like, social media advertising 859 00:40:45,330 --> 00:40:48,290 planner for the church. And I quickly realized, like, this kind 860 00:40:48,290 --> 00:40:51,210 of like, you know, you've been in marketing. Like, I kind of realized, 861 00:40:51,210 --> 00:40:54,130 like, this kind of marketing vibe is not the kind of vibe that I want 862 00:40:54,130 --> 00:40:56,210 from my church, you know? 863 00:40:57,570 --> 00:41:00,490 So, uh, you know, you have some 864 00:41:00,490 --> 00:41:02,370 marketing experience. I have some marketing experience. Like, 865 00:41:03,010 --> 00:41:05,930 marketing can be like, oh, can be really ill 866 00:41:05,930 --> 00:41:08,850 if it's not done with, I think, some 867 00:41:09,010 --> 00:41:11,200 intentionality and integrity. Right, agreed. 868 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,970 >> Speaker D: Ah, absolutely. Both for churches 869 00:41:13,970 --> 00:41:15,250 and seminaries and. 870 00:41:15,330 --> 00:41:18,120 >> Loren: Yeah, right, right. Uh, well, 871 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,800 let's take a quick break here and let's come back with some 872 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:21,680 closing questions. 873 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,760 All right, we're back with Becca Buchterkirchen. 874 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,640 Great to have this conversation. Appreciate your time. 875 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,600 And, uh, I think I've gotten your name right both times, so 876 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,520 hopefully that was the case. Closing questions. You're 877 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,360 welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like to, but if 878 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,140 you're pope for a day, what 879 00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:44,540 might that day look like for you? 880 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:46,620 >> Speaker D: Oh, I love that. 881 00:41:47,870 --> 00:41:50,740 Um, I feel like two thoughts came 882 00:41:50,740 --> 00:41:53,700 to mind and just based on where I'm at in 883 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,460 life, I'm like, oh, man, it would be so great to implement, 884 00:41:56,540 --> 00:41:59,500 like, high quality, affordable childcare for 885 00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,500 ministry families. Um, that would be 886 00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:05,300 phenomenal. But thinking about it, just from a 887 00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:08,110 fun, light hearted standpoint, I think it would be 888 00:42:08,110 --> 00:42:10,870 awesome to host an, an epic barbecue 889 00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:13,870 with lawn games on the Vatican lawn and 890 00:42:13,870 --> 00:42:15,910 just be like, come one, come all, 891 00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:19,430 let's. Let's get everyone together and have some fun. 892 00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:23,109 >> Loren: Okay. That is fun. Yeah. Lawn 893 00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:25,790 games. I like that. St. Peter's 894 00:42:25,790 --> 00:42:27,430 Square. Like, I've never been there, but. 895 00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:27,830 >> Speaker D: Right. 896 00:42:29,110 --> 00:42:32,110 >> Loren: Just a bunch of lawn games. Some, you know, 897 00:42:32,110 --> 00:42:34,990 smokers. Because. And I guess I have to clarify this. Like, 898 00:42:34,990 --> 00:42:37,840 are we talking like hot dogs and hamburgers 899 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,840 cookout or are we talking barbecue, which is like meat. 900 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,880 Smoked

barbecue. 901 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:43,920 >> Speaker D: Oh, uh, smoked meat. 902 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:44,280 >> Loren: Okay. 903 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:44,760 >> Speaker D: For sure. 904 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:45,160 >> Loren: Good. 905 00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:45,800 >> Speaker D: Yep. 906 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,120 >> Loren: Um, I like that. That's 907 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,400 fun. 908 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,800 Okay. A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want 909 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,360 to meet or bring back to life. 910 00:42:55,820 --> 00:42:58,600 >> Speaker D: M. I think the first person that comes to 911 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,160 mind for me is Timothy, ah, Keller. 912 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:01,600 >> Loren: Okay. 913 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,200 >> Speaker D: I know he hasn't been gone for all that long, but 914 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,760 being a family that works in 915 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,720 ministry, I feel like he was such a 916 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,720 phenomenal example of being a pastor. Theologian. 917 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,840 And I also really appreciated 918 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,280 how he passed the baton. Well, he 919 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,200 didn't stay the senior pastor at 920 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,080 his church for forever, and he took a step 921 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,000 back, I felt like, at a great time, 922 00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,020 and instead sought to, um, 923 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,640 raise up the next generation. 924 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,000 And for me, I'm just like, wow, I need more examples 925 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,750 like that. Um, in today's church. 926 00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:42,550 >> Loren: What do you think about Tim Keller? When 927 00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:45,190 I'm thinking about through the lens of. We've seen so many, like, 928 00:43:45,830 --> 00:43:48,790 church leaders, whether it's moral failings, whether 929 00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:51,470 it's narcissistic trips, whether 930 00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:54,230 it's. I, uh, mean, obviously, 931 00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:57,230 nobody's perfect. I'm sure Tim Keller has his 932 00:43:57,230 --> 00:44:00,070 flaws. Certainly there's things that I disagreed with him about, 933 00:44:00,070 --> 00:44:02,710 but I also recognize he's a very wise man. 934 00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:07,170 Like, what do you think? What. What are some 935 00:44:07,170 --> 00:44:09,330 traits that you think he showed that are worth 936 00:44:10,130 --> 00:44:13,010 emphasizing, that are especially important for leaders today? 937 00:44:13,940 --> 00:44:16,530 >> Speaker D: M. I feel like he showed up 938 00:44:16,530 --> 00:44:19,409 remaining curious. He didn't strike me 939 00:44:19,409 --> 00:44:22,290 as someone that was really prideful. I feel 940 00:44:22,290 --> 00:44:25,010 like how he approached the scriptures was 941 00:44:25,010 --> 00:44:27,730 with a willingness to. To say, 942 00:44:27,730 --> 00:44:29,890 here's what I believe, but I could be wrong, 943 00:44:30,620 --> 00:44:33,620 and to welcome different perspectives in 944 00:44:33,620 --> 00:44:35,100 a way that I miss that. 945 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:38,420 Um, from what we're seeing in 946 00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:41,420 today's context. Um, and I also liked that. 947 00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:44,460 As far as I could tell, it seemed like 948 00:44:45,420 --> 00:44:48,220 he didn't just covet the pulpit all by himself. 949 00:44:48,780 --> 00:44:51,780 He wasn't the primary teacher 95% 950 00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:54,620 of the time. And I think there's something to that. 951 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,380 Um, and I crave that in my own local church 952 00:44:57,380 --> 00:44:59,580 setting of, like, I want to see different people, 953 00:45:00,210 --> 00:45:03,210 um, sharing about their insights with who God 954 00:45:03,210 --> 00:45:03,490 is. 955 00:45:03,810 --> 00:45:06,450 >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Uh, what do you think history will 956 00:45:06,450 --> 00:45:08,530 remember from our current time and place? 957 00:45:09,810 --> 00:45:12,530 >> Speaker D: Oof, man, that 958 00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:14,450 one. That's so tricky. I. 959 00:45:15,330 --> 00:45:18,210 I feel like it'll probably remember that we 960 00:45:18,210 --> 00:45:21,090 lived in a time of, like, deep cultural 961 00:45:21,090 --> 00:45:23,650 polarization and digital noise, 962 00:45:24,410 --> 00:45:27,010 um, but that I feel like 963 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,120 a lot of people were quietly longing for something 964 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:30,760 deeper. 965 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:31,400 >> Loren: Yeah. 966 00:45:31,570 --> 00:45:34,520 >> Speaker D: Um, and I can sense that 967 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,560 just seeing where things 968 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,360 are headed right now, it's like, you can see that there's a deep 969 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,160 level of sadness, but people don't know exactly what to do with 970 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:43,400 it. 971 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,360 >> Loren: All right, I've got to give another shout out then for my next guest, 972 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,240 Nandra Root, whose book is. And if you haven't read it, I 973 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,880 really recommend it. Evangelism in the Age of Despair. 974 00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:53,730 >> Speaker D: Amazing. 975 00:45:53,730 --> 00:45:56,530 >> Loren: And it's just basically that. That our world is 976 00:45:56,530 --> 00:45:57,810 just deeply sad. 977 00:45:59,330 --> 00:46:02,330 And, I mean, I think it's heartbroken. And I Think one of the 978 00:46:02,330 --> 00:46:02,850 things that, 979 00:46:05,250 --> 00:46:08,170 I mean, I think people are so. There's so many people who 980 00:46:08,170 --> 00:46:10,890 are nihilistic to a point, and they're 981 00:46:10,890 --> 00:46:13,330 hungering for something more, and they're. They're like, 982 00:46:15,490 --> 00:46:16,690 they're chasing

it in these 983 00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:20,320 dangerous, you know, 984 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,760 dangerous patterns. So I don't 985 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,450 want to take too long on that. But, um, 986 00:46:27,450 --> 00:46:30,120 yeah, appreciate you sharing that. Something more 987 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,800 positive. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity? 988 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,360 >> Speaker D: Yeah, I have a lot of hope that we would 989 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,280 learn to truly embody what it means to 990 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,280 love God and love others, and I think to 991 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,240 not get so caught up in who's wrong or who's right, 992 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,040 especially about secondary theological issues. 993 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,840 If there's anything about living in today's 994 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,960 cultural, uh, context that I'm sensing, it's like, you 995 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,800 know what? We need to go back to the basics and even 996 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,720 though it sounds so simple to preach the 997 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:04,600 gospel and to not get so sidelined about all of these 998 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:05,120 other things. 999 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,240 >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, share where folks 1000 00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:11,160 can connect with you and, um, reach out to you 1001 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:12,160 if so desired. 1002 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,680 >> Speaker D: Yeah. Uh, the best place to do that is at my 1003 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,650 website, beccabuck.com. um, I have 1004 00:47:18,650 --> 00:47:21,530 a lot of ks in my name too, so. Ah, B E 1005 00:47:21,530 --> 00:47:24,250 K A H B U C K dot com. 1006 00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:27,490 And, uh, now I predominantly do a lot 1007 00:47:27,490 --> 00:47:30,450 of writing, um, speaking to moms who 1008 00:47:30,450 --> 00:47:33,170 are kind of in the trenches of motherhood, but still want to 1009 00:47:33,170 --> 00:47:36,130 pursue the Lord daily, even when they worry it's not 1010 00:47:36,130 --> 00:47:39,050 enough. So that's where they can find me. 1011 00:47:39,210 --> 00:47:42,090 >> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. I really 1012 00:47:42,090 --> 00:47:45,080 appreciate the conversation. Uh, we always leave folks 1013 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,600 with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you. 1014 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:51,360 >> Speaker D: Oh, thank you. Well, I received that and thank you. 1015 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,760 Likewise for having me. It was a wonderful discussion. 1016 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,600 >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. 1017 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,720 The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate 1018 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,300 Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, 1019 00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:12,330 questions, comments, and ideas for future episodes. 1020 00:48:12,730 --> 00:48:15,690 Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com 1021 00:48:15,930 --> 00:48:18,810 and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of 1022 00:48:18,810 --> 00:48:21,530 the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. 1023 00:48:21,690 --> 00:48:24,650 But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to 1024 00:48:24,650 --> 00:48:27,530 the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get 1025 00:48:27,530 --> 00:48:28,730 this out to more people. 1026 00:48:29,130 --> 00:48:29,530 >> Loren: Thanks. 1027 00:48:29,530 --> 00:48:30,570 >> Loren Richmond: And go in PE.