บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ E47: Reinventing Business Banking with Everett Cook (Rho)

and they told me what they're gonna do. 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.639 Like that there are people like there are rumors of that. 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:07.360 That doesn't happen. 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.120 And even if it did, it wouldn't really help you that much. 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.680 You know, so it's really about like seeing the bigger picture more clearly than everybody else, right? 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:21.279 Seeing the picture, the pieces come together and understanding where the market has biases and where the market is ultimately like crowding and hurting. 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:24.639 And, you know, how do you understand something that that nine out of 10 people don't? 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.279 And that's very similar to starting a company, right? 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:34.639 You know, especially when you're starting out, there aren't necessarily really big secrets, but understanding technology trends and okay, this is changing, right? 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.519 There's here's a foundational technology that's changing. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.040 And what does that power? 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:44.079 And you know, the obvious answer is not usually not the right one, but it's like, how do you understand that second order? 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.000 And then how do you move really fast to execute? 00:04:46.160 --> 00:05:03.759 And so there's actually a pretty long history of founders that have similar backgrounds to me that made that transition because the while the the hard skills are not the same, the sort of the soft skills are, you know, that the critical thinking, the sort of understanding investment markets and and how broader shifts impact, you know, sort of micro. 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:08.399 And we're definitely gonna dive deeper into fintech and how we went from macro to starting row. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.120 But can you just touch on your experience working with Mike Bloomberg? 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:11.920 That's very fascinating. 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.360 And we'd love to hear how that inspired some of your interest in entrepreneurship. 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.519 Yeah, it was it was an amazing opportunity. 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:19.759 I was really lucky to have really at a really early age. 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:22.560 And that's probably what inspired me really to be an entrepreneur. 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:24.879 At a really young age, I really wanted to work. 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.279 I loved, you know, I loved business. 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.240 And I just, I, you know, I didn't want to go play with my friends in the summer. 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:31.519 I wanted to get a job. 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:41.920 And I was able to sort of talk myself into a, you know, really like really sort of very like very like low, you know, low risk job from their perspective at at Bloomberg at the time. 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.920 I was the youngest, youngest employee there, probably still

uh probably hold that record for a summer. 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.399 And anyway, I went in, they kind of put me in the corner. 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.720 They were like, here, just watch a bunch of videos and I catalog them. 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:51.680 I came back two weeks later. 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.639 I was like, I built a database for you guys, like to manage all this stuff. 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:56.160 Like, okay, you're kind of useful. 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:01.040 And so anyway, I stuck around for a long time through the campaign, through and then for the first six months in City Hall. 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:07.839 But for me, it was amazing just as an opportunity to really see, you know, one of the best founders, entrepreneurs of all time, right? 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:15.360 And get a front of receipt into someone operating that caliber, you know, which is again, like I think one Mike is one of the greatest founders of all time. 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:22.639 I know people don't think about him in the same sort of, you know, like tech world, you know, versus like Zuckerberg or jobs, but he is like, right? 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.680 He's he is absolutely up there and has built a company that is like that size. 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:26.079 Yeah. 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:32.079 For me, it was really fascinating because number one, you appreciate like the humanity of someone like that. 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:33.839 Like he's not a he's not a superhuman. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:35.279 He's a he's a he's a person, right? 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:36.079 He puts on his shoes. 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.560 Yeah, you know, and he's very down to earth. 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:40.720 And you know, he built an incredible company. 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.480 And he did it by understanding that there was a technological shift happening, right? 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:48.480 Understanding that that finance was going to move towards towards computers, toward digital. 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:53.839 He had an advantage in terms of having you know a better understanding of that from his prior role at Solomon Brothers. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:03.120 And then he built a phenomenal culture around it once he sort of had that MVP product in the market and never stopped and never took money from VC either, which is uh which we'll get into as well. 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:03.439 Yeah. 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.199 For me, that was amazing just just to be able to see, like, just to be able to be, you know, 10 feet away and see what's happening there. 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.360 Because at a really young age, I was like, well, I want to do that. 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:16.560 I I have no, you know, belief that I I can approach anything close to what he's accomplished. 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:18.560 But it's amazing that a human being can even do that. 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.399 And that's that was always what I wanted to do. 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:20.720 Yeah. 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:21.439 That's amazing. 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.360 So you leave the PM role 2017, 2018, to start a company. 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.639 And one of the first things that you have to do, which Will did for us, was set up a bank account when you ran into a problem. 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.480 What did you want to start initially? 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.399 And then what happened when you were like, oh crap, this is harder than what I thought. 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:36.879 Yeah. 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:37.839 So that's right. 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:39.360 I left the fund I was at. 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.199 You know, I talked about market changes. 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.839 There were a couple of interesting market changes that I thought were happening that I wanted to take advantage of and build a company around. 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.480 So first I didn't leave with like a divine inspiration. 00:07:48.560 --> 00:08:05.120 And I think that there's this myth that, you know, if you're and I I don't you guys talk to more founders than I do probably, but I think there's the this, there's this myth that like you're gonna have this perfect idea when you leave your company and you know, you're gonna go start your company, you know, you're gonna resign one day and start the company the next day, and everything's gonna be laid out. 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:06.399 Maybe that happens for some people. 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:07.839 Definitely didn't happen for me. 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:22.079 And my my perspective was look, if I'm gonna spend the next 10, maybe longer years building a company, I want to make sure that it's something that I believe in, that I care about, and that I have really put in work into the why before I, you know, say, yeah, I'm let's let's go down this journey. 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:28.879 So I left, I spent about three months trying to figure out what was what was interesting and what did I want to do. 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:37.200 And I thought the the initial idea that I had was, well, Instagram is is growing really fast and it's gonna redefine the way that consumer products are sold and and made and delivered. 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.759 And this was the very beginning of sort of the direct to consumer boom, which ended up in a sort of a bust after that. 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:43.919 But so it was probably a good a good miss. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.559 But step one, performed LLC. 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:49.919 I was like, I'm gonna do some business projects, and then step two, open a bank account. 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.639 And I got to step two and I kind of got stuck. 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.440 It's wasted a day and a half trying to open a bank account. 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:56.799 I was like, why is this this hard? 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:09.519 I was an early adopter of fintech solutions, like simple and some of the wealth management sort of fintechs, and had

friends that are, you know, were early employees at SoFi and some of the early fintechs at that time, and kind of stuck in my head. 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:10.639 And then I kept going. 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.080 I was like, okay, well, I did get it open. 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.039 It wasn't, you know, it wasn't it didn't totally block me, it was just a waste of a day. 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.600 But yeah, um, but it didn't even need to be need to be like that. 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:21.919 Tried to work on a couple of D2C projects, realized that that wasn't necessarily my strength. 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.799 And then I kept getting asked by other founders like about fintech. 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.799 And like everyone'd you use, what'd you do? 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.200 Yeah, and just like everyone was fascinated with fintech. 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:35.200 All these people that had done other things like ad tech and stuff like that, they were like, you know, they were like, they were like, oh, this is this thing, and I don't know anything about finance. 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:36.559 I was like, well, I actually know something about that. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.879 So maybe this is like the universe pulling me in this direction. 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:46.240 And we sat down, had a brainstorming session, and I talked to a number of founders, entrepreneurs, and like what's broken, and they were like, Man, like business banking is just terrible. 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.120 Like, and I was like, Oh yeah, like I had that experience, you know, a month ago. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:50.799 Like it was, it was really tough. 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:51.759 Why is this so bad? 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:56.639 And why is like every other piece of software, every other piece of technology that I touch, you know, feel new. 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.240 And then this feel like I'm going back in time, like 10 years longer, right? 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:00.480 Yeah. 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:02.559 So that was sort of the inspiration. 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:07.600 We started building there with the simple view of like what makes just the best bank account in the world. 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.480 And then we built that, or what we believed that was the case. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:14.159 But what we really realized was the best bank account in the world isn't a bank account. 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:15.200 It's really a system. 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:19.440 And it's a system for you know, operating and organizing your finances as a company. 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:27.039 And so all those things that people were doing outside the bank account, like bill pay, like expense management, like corporate cards, those needed to come in. 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:34.240 And it needed to be one platform that you could use and that you wouldn't have to touch anything else as a finance person, as a founder, as an accountant. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.639 And that's really what we what it's the inspiration for Roe. 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:37.600 There's a big vision. 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.039 And some people were like, you know, you're crazy, like this is a good idea, but you're never gonna get that far. 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.000 But you know, here we are seven years later, continuing to hack away at it. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.600 Yeah, that's very fascinating. 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:50.720 And you you touched on how you built out the product and the natural extensions of the bank platform. 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:56.320 Obviously, as a seed series A now, you know, series B post Series B business resources are scarce, right? 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.360 You only have so much capital, you have to make your capital go as far as it can. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:07.039 How do you go about deciding what is the next project or the next piece of the product that you should work on? 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.600 How do you how does that prioritization process work? 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:19.120 I mean, look, I think that's true at any stage, no matter how many people or resources you have, you're always systematically constrained because companies can only do a couple of things really well, you know, even if you're Microsoft, right? 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.919 For us, we have a phenomenal product management team that spends all day kind of thinking about those problems. 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:27.679 Earlier on, when we didn't have that, it was really about just talking to customers. 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:32.879 And actually, really early on when we first started, we knew that there was a huge spectrum of things that we did not have. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:34.480 And we were like, what do we do first? 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:40.159 And we would actually go out and pitch customers on our product, pitch customers that were larger than our ICP because we wanted to go out and market. 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.279 And we just had a spreadsheet and we were like, why'd they say no? 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:44.559 And we would just mark it down. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:50.080 And whichever kind of had the highest score and the lowest you know difficulty rating, we would just do first. 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.639 And then we kept working on that list over time again, eventually kind of became product management, became more professional. 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:56.159 But but it was it was really that simple. 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:57.840 It's just talking to our users day in day out. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:58.399 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:58.480 --> 00:11:58.879 Very customer. 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.360 Why didn't you start with the initial wedge of row? 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:08.080 The initial wedge of row, which is better business banking, and it was opening a business bank account online, you know, for startups. 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.440 And it was interesting because when we started, it was 20 2019. 00:12:11.600

--> 00:12:13.919 It was October 2019, it was when we launched the product. 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.559 And you know, we would market it and we would talk to customers. 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.360 We did a lot of community stuff, we did a lot of meetups in New York. 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.200 And, you know, about half the time we hear, well, like there's a Chase branch like by my, you know, right down the street from me. 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.840 And I was like, okay, but you don't want to spend your day there, like, you know, like do this online. 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:31.200 This is 20 2019. 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:32.799 You know, we're pretty far along at this point. 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.879 And then three months later, right, COVID happens and you know, everything's shut. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.440 And you know, all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can do this all online now. 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:40.159 I don't I don't have to. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:41.279 Like you, you know, you don't have a choice. 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:42.159 We're the only game of time. 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:44.960 So you know, we went like this, it was really exciting. 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.279 But then even after that, right, like we never got that question again. 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.720 It was never like, oh, I want to go to branch. 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:49.919 Everyone realized they didn't have to do that. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:56.879 The behavior changed, COVID had fundamentally changed, shifted people's perception of what you had to do, you know, physically, and the world was never gonna go back. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:03.039 But that was, you know, initially that was very hard for people to do outside of you know us and a few other people early that were early. 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:20.000 Yeah, I think that brings up an interesting point that I'd love to touch on, which is just trying to understand why is this an area that's better suited for a technology company as opposed to a larger financial institution like a Chase, which is obviously part of JP Morgan, as are other retail brick and mortar banks, right? 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:21.519 Why should this be a tech solution? 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.320 First of all, it's not purely a tech solution, right? 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:29.200 We we partner with banks to deliver products and services, and uh among them business banking. 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:37.840 So today we partner with Webster Bank, which is a$70 billion bank based in Connecticut, and they do what they're excellent at, which is risk management, balance sheet management, et cetera. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.120 And then we deliver technology that the customer you know touches and feels. 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.840 Banks are not technology companies, and technology companies are not banks. 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:44.960 And I think that's that's really important. 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.559 I think most banks would agree with that too. 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:49.600 They're not their expertise is not building great products. 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.200 Building a product organization, building great software is really hard, right? 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:56.559 You guys see it every day in your portfolio and companies that you meet, founders that you meet. 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:03.360 You know, it's it's it's a organizational skill that is very different than what exists at banks, even the largest banks. 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:08.799 And just because they have thousands and thousands of uh engineers doesn't mean they can build better products. 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:13.039 And that's like it's like it's a pure, you know, sort of innovator's dilemma type type thing, right? 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.200 Like it's the same with same with startups, right? 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:21.519 Just because you know, Microsoft, Google have lots of engineers doesn't mean that they can build everything or build it better unnecessarily. 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.799 So I think it's it's really about that, about like just deeply understanding your user, you know, maybe picking one of them, right? 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:32.480 We don't do consumer banking, we don't do, you know, like mortgages, all these other things that a bank kind of has to do. 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:32.799 Yeah. 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.039 We really focus on one lane, and then we are building software because we believe that software is really what adds value to customer experience. 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:44.960 And then the bank really like owns the the back end of ultimately the payments, the money storage, stuff like that. 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.679 Now, a quick word from our sponsor. 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:54.320 Laura and I are thrilled to announce a partnership with Grata, an intuitive deal sourcing intelligence platform. 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.639 Keep missing out on private market deals, ditch the Rolodex and get Grata. 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:07.279 Grata's AI-powered platform provides accurate data, deep insights, and time-saving workflows that help get more deals done. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:12.720 And it's trusted by over 500 firms in 3,000 deal makers, including myself. 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:22.639 I've personally used Grata in both my deal sourcing and diligence workflows and would recommend their tool to any investor across private equity, growth equity, corpdev, or investment banking. 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.679 We've negotiated a special offer for our audience. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:35.200 Mention partner path to the Grata team during sign-up, and you'll get free executive seats for your partners and MDs included in your subscription. 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:36.799 Now back to the episode. 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.039 Obviously, there are other tech solutions that are taking on the consumer banking side, right? 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.120 Like a Chime or other various new

banks. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:44.720 So I think that begs the question. 00:15:44.960 --> 00:16:01.039 Looking forward, what do you think the outlook is for big banks like a JP Morgan Chase or a Bank of America, where obviously you guys are taking business from them or some type of value that would otherwise accrue to them on the commercial banking side, they're getting attacked on the consumer banking side. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.519 It almost seems like some of these big financial institutions are dying and death by a thousand cuts. 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.279 What will they continue to excel in? 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:13.759 You mentioned risk management among a couple of other things, but what's your perspective on the long-term outlook for a lot of these big players? 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.519 Yeah, I think that they're there are a couple things. 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:16.399 I don't think they're going anywhere. 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:20.320 Soon, you know, I think that they will continue, they will start to partner more frequently with fintech companies. 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.399 Some may buy some, but they will, I think there'll be more of a, you know, more of a partnership. 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:29.519 I think fintech and banks went through a couple of phases over the past, you know, decade or so, right? 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.360 First, you know, the the banks were like, well, this is this is too small to matter. 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:34.240 Like nobody cares. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.639 And then fintech valuations, you know, during the bubble were like, you know, just insane. 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.000 And it was sort of the other way. 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.919 And now I think it's more like, let's meet in the middle and let's figure out how to build a better solution for our customers. 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.000 The banks recognize that they're not software companies. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:58.559 The fintechs recognize that they need to work with good banks and really good banks, not just like these little regional banks that I think people had had worked with, sorry, not regional, but community banks that some of the fintech companies have built on top of. 00:16:58.639 --> 00:16:58.720 Yeah. 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:07.759 And it's like, look, if you're gonna build a premium grade product, you need to work with a premium grade bank that actually is well regulated, understands this product, understands this space, like our partner today. 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.640 And so I think that it's a it's a positive relationship over time. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.240 I think that there are areas that will move more towards fintech. 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.759 I don't think that fintech will ever be big balance sheet lending. 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.920 There's no competitive advantages of fintech to do that. 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.200 I don't think that fintechs, you know, on the consumer side, I think there are segments. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.880 I think that the prime segments, I think it will still be hard for fintech to crack. 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:28.000 I haven't seen that happen yet. 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:37.920 Maybe they will, but I think segments where the banks struggle to serve and struggle to do really well, those will ultimately be, you know, fintechs will be doing them, and then fintechs will be hopefully doing them in partnership with great banks. 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.799 And I think over time that's that's ultimately how how it progresses. 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.240 I do think that there'll be a hollowing out of like the mid-tier banks. 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.920 You know, it it they'll either be excellent at lending and be earning their name that way and really not making much on the other side, or they they won't necessarily be there. 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.720 Banks end up sort of you know looking like credit credit hedge funds in a lot of ways, right? 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:04.079 They're putting credit out there, they're borrowing, you know, but but they don't necessarily have a thriving retail business outside the sort of the top top couple. 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:09.119 Do you think there's room for any brick and mortar presence in the banking future in five or 10 years? 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.279 Yeah, you know, I I do actually. 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.119 I think that it's it's really interesting. 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:19.039 I mean, you you see some banks that are pulling back from it, you know, and and just not investing. 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:26.559 Other banks like PNC, who I actually have a ton of respect for, I think it's an exceptionally well-managed bank, are investing$1.5 billion in in brick and mortar. 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.640 There's definitely like return on that investment. 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.400 There's customers that that care about that. 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:39.039 There are also just customers that care about like like workflow software and you know, process optimization and stuff like that, and and accounting integrations and doing all those things really well. 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.119 So I think that there's room for both, just like you know, direct to consumer, right? 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.519 Seven years ago, people were like, oh, like retail is gonna be dead. 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.480 Like it's just gonna disappear. 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.119 Like, no, you know, you're gonna walk down Madison Avenue and it's gonna be empty. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.400 Yeah, it didn't happen, right? 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:51.920 Like, yeah, but it evolved. 00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:06.240 You know, there's some stuff that you buy online, there's some stuff that you buy in stores, and there's the the use of stores today is probably different than it was 10 years ago because it's more about a you know showcasing the brand as opposed to necessarily, hey, like

walking into the store to buy, you know, a stapler or something like that that you buy on Amazon, right? 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.640 Yeah, yeah. 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.400 So I think that's true in this space as well. 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.720 Do you think that any of the digitally native banks will ever get into brick and mortar presents? 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.039 Will we be able to walk into a row back to the I don't know? 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:23.599 It's probably not like a you know a venture, venture scale sort of like return on investment, maybe one for for marketing purposes, but probably not in the near term. 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:24.319 Yeah, got it. 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:33.039 I guess then when you think about we've touched on the big bank side of the market and where they play in, I guess, row generally speaking, but what about it's become a highly competitive space? 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.759 And I think it's a big market, so there probably can be a few winners. 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.839 But how do you think about differentiating from some of the other players, like Rex and Ramp? 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.680 And I also know that their initial wedge was like a little bit different than Rose. 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.319 Yeah, I mean, look, we all started around the same time. 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.640 I think we all understood that there was a transformational shift in terms of what was possible, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019. 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.000 And then that would ultimately end up in a sort of software-driven world. 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.759 I have a lot of respect for all those companies. 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.519 I think they some of them have led the way, some of them are, you know, have were later. 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.960 But for us, we think about it as like, look, number one, yes, it's a really big space. 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.640 And you know, it's if you actually count it, it's probably the biggest tan across the board. 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.119 Number two, we think about it around our customers. 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.480 We're just like we talk to our customers, we're customer obsessed, we're not competitor obsessed. 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.519 For us, it's really understanding where there are problems that we can solve and and solutions that we can deliver. 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.599 And yeah, like for them, I think we have a couple things that are different philosophically. 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.920 We started with business banking, both of them started as cards. 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:27.359 Brex now does business banking. 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.680 I wouldn't be surprised if if other people start doing that. 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:36.400 In addition, for us, we we really believe that customer service is an integral part of customer experience. 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.720 And it's not something that that should be sort of an afterthought. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.960 That's probably the one of the biggest differences that that we see. 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.839 You know, we believe in having the best product, having the best pricing, and also delivering it with the world's best customer service. 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.079 And that's something that probably, you know, other other folks have a different philosophy on than we do. 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:59.759 How can you differentiate from like a customer service standpoint and how do you know when you're spending too much versus not enough time with a customer, especially as you've been around for a while, but still a lean team? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.240 Yeah. 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.640 You never want customer service to be your requirement. 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.759 You never want people to have to reach out to do something or have to, you know, non-bl have you always want the product to solve the problem. 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:15.039 That said, when you are dealing with people's money, there is a heightened sense of sensitivity and there's a desire to talk to someone fairly frequently. 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:21.839 And so we think about it as like from a, you know, we have a multi-tiered model in terms of how we structure those teams and how we deliver that service. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:29.519 We don't use BPOs, we don't outsource it, but it is cost effective because uh we're, you know, the product is generally able to solve all the problems. 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:35.119 But sometimes our team is able is there to help them understand sort of where, you know, how to how to use it themselves. 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.599 And then they have to go back to our designers and be like, hey, like, you know, we have this, but it wasn't intuitive enough. 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.799 How do we make that more intuitive that we have less of those tickets? 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:45.039 Um so those things also like just support each other, right? 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:49.200 Customer service is is part of our product org and it and it supports our product. 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:50.720 You know, their goal is to make that go down. 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:57.920 But why don't you hope that nobody needs it, but you want to make sure that when someone interacts with your organization, like it's it's an A plus every time. 00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.759 And so that that's how we think about it. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.480 Yeah, it sounds like some of the AI customer service companies might not be the best fit for fintech. 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:05.839 I don't you know, I don't know. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.039 Like we're we'll see. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.039 I think we're I'm optimistic on that side. 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.440 I think that it'll be uh it'll be an evolution. 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:18.079 You know, the more of the low-level stuff that can be automated gives your team more time and bandwidth to to solve

sort of more complicated problems. 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:23.119 But yeah, I think overall, like there's there is still a a premium put on being able to interact with a human on the other side. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:33.599 Do you have a view on I know this is a slight tangent, but there's been a lot of venture money going into folks like Sierra and Decagon and their customer support, customer service agents. 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.519 If you think back five, 10 years, there was a lot of capital invested in customer service AI. 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:39.759 Right. 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.160 Right? 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.000 Which which there's a lot of products out there, intercom, a core AI. 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.200 There are a lot of folks that already provide quote unquote customer service AI. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:57.200 Do you have a view on whether investment in this new agenc world in that product use case will kind of come to fruition or I'm really excited about it? 00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:58.240 Yeah, we've explored all of them. 00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:59.599 We're really excited about that space. 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.240 I think that again, it allows our team to ultimately like up-level what they're doing. 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.559 Yeah. 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:05.839 So I'm I'm hopeful. 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:13.359 I mean, the foundational models are evolving so quickly that I think that it's natural that you'll see more agentic solutions in the future. 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.319 But again, we think about it as like, look, where's the market today? 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.000 Where's it going to be in a year or two years? 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.880 How do we position there, you know, as we continue to kind of move forward? 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:22.319 We'll think longer term as well. 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:24.880 Right now, no, it's not, it's not quite there. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.000 Like I think you can tell, right? 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.319 Like the turning, it generally fails the turning test. 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:29.279 But but we're getting closer. 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:38.319 So maybe it would be good to touch on the interest rate cycle and how you've seen that effect row from what you've got a market standpoint and just value proposition for your existing customers. 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:38.799 Yeah. 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.480 So we're we're influenced by that. 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:46.400 And I think that the way that we've thought about it is you know, we we have a cash management business and a spend management business. 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.920 Cash management is business banking, spend management is corporate cards. 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.039 For us, when when rates go up, generally speaking, the cash management side does better. 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:59.920 And also we're able to deliver more value back to customers in terms of by giving them treasury solutions. 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.960 So founders that are sitting on millions of dollars of cash, you know, can earn four or five percent. 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:05.119 Yeah. 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:05.839 Yeah, exactly. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.680 So that becomes really attractive to people who, you know, where that money may have been sitting somewhere else, not doing anything. 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.359 But our margin on our cards goes down a bit because we have to borrow for that. 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.759 And then on the other side, when rates go down, vice versa. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.240 We try to build a sort of a more somewhat balanced business. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:22.240 It may shift sort of one way or the other a little bit. 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:31.759 But ultimately we believe like both of those things are important, both for the end user as well as for the business model to make sure that we're not super you know impacted by interest rates, regardless which direction they're moving. 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:32.480 Right, right. 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:38.240 Which I'm sure your experience as a macro investor helps you position a little bit, you know, sooner maybe thanks to the. 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.279 Yeah, I mean, I I I'm more trying to like not take risk. 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:46.319 Like I'm I, you know, my perspective is like I I did that before, you know, I'm sort of done, I retired from that world. 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:56.000 So my goal is always obsessing about like how do we, you know, how do we avoid taking a view on that stuff, or how do we avoid taking risk on things that are, you know, are macro and focus on just like building a business. 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:57.680 But you actually have to think about it if you're gonna avoid it. 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.720 Otherwise, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna be kind of you know whipsawed by it. 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.359 Right, right. 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:08.720 And I I know, Everett, you've done a couple other podcasts where you've touched on high-level your ICP and and the type of customer that you target. 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:14.160 It's typically right when you're starting to think about bringing on a CFO or fractional CFO, right? 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:18.319 Going from one person business to a couple of people is an interesting inflection point. 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.960 But I think it'd be helpful to chat through your ICP and how you decided to target that ICP. 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:28.400 Obviously, you're focused on fast-growing small, medium-sized businesses across various verticals. 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:33.759 Maybe you should start with why focus on smaller businesses with high growth and what was the thought process there? 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.119 So you know, today Roe spans a pretty wide spectrum. 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:48.319 So we we work with companies that are literally just getting started day zero to you know, 10,000

plus person companies with you know hundreds of locations across the country and everything in between. 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:54.960 But for us, we think like the companies that get the most value out of row are those ones that are that are just starting to hit some inflection. 00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:11.359 And really because we're able to give them sort of a full you know financial operating system that they can take out of the box and have day one and ultimately solve those problems that that they're experiencing around spend management, around you know, managing their capital, around you know, closing their books faster. 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.519 Um, so ultimately that's where we see that need the most, the most acute. 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.559 But really, like we love starting with companies like when they just get started too. 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.559 And you know, the platform is can be self-service and they they can sign up and just go all the way through. 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.640 And ultimately, and that way when they do hit that inflection point, they're they're ready. 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.599 Is it difficult to build for a self-service customer as well as an enterprise customer? 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:32.559 Yeah, it is. 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.759 It's like a it's a particularly unique challenge that our product managers have to kind of figure out every day. 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.119 There is definitely like an overlap. 00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.119 If you think of it, there's like a Venn diagram, right? 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:42.960 And it's like, what does that enterprise customer want? 00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:44.960 What does that smaller SMB want? 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.039 And how do we make sure that the product works together? 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:54.640 We try to frame it as like at Row, and this is part of our mission statement internally, is that we're trying to build the simplest and most powerful product in our category. 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.519 And simple meaning like you can use it out of the box. 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:05.119 If if you were to start a company tomorrow, like sign up for row, you know, easier than than Chase or then you know some of the other FinTech companies. 00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.960 But if you're scaling, you know, it's not gonna break. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.400 You're not gonna have scaling problems. 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:12.720 And ultimately you're gonna be able to have your permissions that are as granular as you want, right? 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:23.599 So, you know, if you're big companies that they get very granular in terms of like whose labs do what, how do we like do permissions, you know, if you're allowed to spend, who has to approve it, who has to approve that, you know, several chains down, et cetera. 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:30.319 So, yes, making all that work together in sort of a single user experience that's cohesive is a is a challenge,

but that's why we hire really smart people. 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.000 But ultimately, you really believe that simplicity is universal. 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:36.480 Everybody wants a simple product, they just want to be able to do the thing. 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:37.920 So, yeah, that's that's right. 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:44.240 How would you describe or what would you describe as a business that's outside of your ICP or who you try to focus on? 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.759 Because I know you focus more on tech companies, obviously fast-growing businesses we mentioned. 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:54.000 Yeah, but also there are different types of businesses, whether brick and mortar retail businesses versus tech companies. 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.039 How do you think of what you might not want to focus on and why? 00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.119 We don't have a ton of brick and mortar retail. 00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.920 We don't touch cash. 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.400 So if you're a company that takes cash, that's that can be tough. 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:02.799 Yeah. 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:11.200 And generally speaking, it's like professional services type, office type businesses, whether you're in tech, you know, if you're an architect, if you're in finance. 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.880 There are lots of categories where we have lots of, lots of, lots of sort of space. 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:15.920 But generally speaking, it's that. 00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.319 Yeah, we don't have a ton of like brick and mortar, you know, but and then we also work with lots of accountants. 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:28.799 So that's sort of another ICP for us is accountants and accounting firms where they may have, you know, 10 or 100 clients and they're managing that, they're juggling that. 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.079 We build product for them as well. 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:36.079 So we build product that helps them manage their client portfolio inside row, ultimately close their clients' books more efficiently. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.119 And those span like tons of different industries, dentists or you know, or tech companies or anything above. 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.839 So it's really a universal problem that we're solving. 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.039 There's definitely certain market segments where we have just better access, better, better connectivity. 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.799 They're generally early adopters, but we believe the whole market is our TAM, really. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.480 It's just focusing on one thing at a time. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.039 Yeah. 00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:07.440 And I think one interesting trend that would be interesting to touch on is the evolution of vertical software and why you think banking and cash management, spend management shouldn't be included in this business in a box type trend. 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:07.759 Right. 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:08.880 There's a couple reasons. 00:29:09.039 -->

00:29:12.160 And I think this was sort of our like anti-thesis when we started the company. 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.480 Because at the time it was very sort of in vogue that was that there was going to be, you know, banking and spend for X, Y, Z for every every vertical. 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.000 Right, for barbershops, you know, for we had Alex at sense on. 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.079 They provide software to laundry mats, right? 00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:26.240 Yeah, car washes, yeah, you name it. 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:27.920 So some of those I think will exist. 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:31.279 But I think from a banking perspective, the first point is that it's it's really hard. 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:39.519 This is not a bolt-on project that you just like, oh, cool, let's get like, you know, two engineers and we'll, you know, we'll just integrate this and it'll just spit out money. 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.359 That's really not how banking and payments works. 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.319 It's all about like handling edge cases exceptionally well. 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.839 At Roe, we built all our technical infrastructure from the ground up. 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.519 We started with the Bass solution, we found its limitations very quickly. 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:59.200 And then we're like, hey, like if we don't build our own core infrastructure, we're gonna, you know, maybe we upgrade to the next generation of Bass, but we're gonna have the same problem again and again and again. 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:04.000 And ultimately the customers and the scale of customers that we're trying to service are not gonna be happy with our solution. 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:11.759 So we believe that that's really critical if you're gonna deliver a solution to companies that you know depend on you, frankly, to survive, right? 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:13.440 So, first of all, it's hard. 00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.400 Second is that the problems are pretty universal. 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.279 The CFO at that company, a tech company, and the CFO at let's say like an architecture firm are actually struggling with a lot of the same things. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:24.160 How do I close the books? 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.759 How do I make sure that you know we understand you know where money's going faster? 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:34.319 How do we ultimately ensure that our bills are getting paid on time and that we're not getting vendor fraud and stuff like that? 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.839 These are universal concepts that that permeate industries. 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.640 You know, you can really think about it as like the CFO, the finance person is actually the industry, right? 00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.960 And then there's like vehicles that kind of intersect that. 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.759 And the finance professional is really like, is really all of them, 100% of them are trying to close their books faster. 00:30:49.839 --> 00:31:04.160

100% of them are trying to have less software to juggle on a single platform, 100% of them, you know, want to be able to have the best banking solution in the world, you know, be able to talk to somebody if they need to, and if they don't, like be able to just do, you know, do everything online. 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.279 So yeah, from our perspective, that's really the industry. 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:10.400 And then the vertical is just, you know, kind of subsets of that. 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:10.720 Yeah. 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.559 What about from a go-to-market standpoint? 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.160 I mean, it's such a wide ICP. 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:14.400 Yeah. 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.400 And there's definitely a lot of risk going after startups. 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:16.720 Yeah. 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.599 And you want people like as they're starting their company to think of row. 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.839 So how do you approach that from a go-to-market? 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.240 So I think that's that's where we get probably a little bit more vertical, is like when we when we go to market. 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.279 Because you're right, like it's harder to hit you know the whole market at once. 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:36.319 And that's sort of the challenge in this space is you can get sort of wide-eyed and you know start to boil the ocean really quickly if you don't, if you don't narrow it down. 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.599 But I think it's important to remember that, hey, like this whole market does exist. 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.640 If we want to focus our attention here, we can focus right here or here. 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.359 And so we we really do a lot of like, you know, just like in product management and the go to market side, what's the most important category? 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:50.559 What's the most important segment? 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:56.160 Where can we drive the highest, you know, return on effort, return on investment in terms of bringing customers to grow? 00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:56.480 Yeah. 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.799 We do a lot with tech companies of all stages. 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:03.200 We've done a ton here in New York City and we're doing more in San Francisco, actually starting next year. 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:04.559 And then we do a lot with accountants. 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.039 It's really been a critical category for us that then spans a lot of categories. 00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:12.880 For us, we've also we've we've set the path on trying to be the best partner in the market. 00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.119 We're not the biggest firm by by headcount. 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:16.799 We're not trying to grow through headcount either. 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:36.400 So, what we're trying to do is really to develop super high-leverage partnerships with great organizations like Nabon, who we partnered with a year ago, and really work towards shared goals and help them deliver to their customer promise and help us deliver the best banking and card and spend management product in the world alongside the products that they're selling. 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.839 And that's been really successful so far. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.559 And that's helped us span, you know, across a number of industries. 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:40.960 Yeah. 00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:43.839 What do you think Roe looks like in 2030? 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.599 2030 is not that far away, right? 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:46.160 It's five years. 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.039 It's kind of crazy. 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.720 But I think our long-term, our long-term aspiration is that we're building one of the largest financial institutions in the United States. 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:55.119 And we're building it because we're not a financial institution. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.480 We're a tech company, right? 00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:05.279 But in terms of scale, in terms of size, in terms of number of customers touched, we really believe that that is possible, that that will happen in fintech, and we want to be the ones that that that do that. 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.559 We have a better product than than the incumbents, like Bar none. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:10.559 So to me, it's it's inevitable. 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.880 The first customer, the first 10 customers, first hundred customers, thousand, that's the hardest part, right? 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:16.400 Now it's just how do we rinse and repeat? 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:17.039 How do we scale? 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.079 How do we get that to a million? 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.839 How do we get that to every business in America? 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.160 But we believe that that's that's ultimately where this goes. 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:29.119 And so we're excited to kind of spend the next, you know, I don't know if it's five years or or longer, but yeah, you know, spend that spend that time period getting there. 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.440 Yeah. 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.079 Should we end with a quick fire round? 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:32.880 Sure. 00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:33.279 Okay. 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.240 So if you weren't CEO at Roe, what would you do for work? 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.039 I don't know. 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:41.599 I'd I would try to I'd probably be trying to find another problem, interesting problem to solve. 00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:42.079 Okay. 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.680 What's the third step in starting a business? 00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:44.559 Yeah, that's right. 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.720 What's one thing you would tell yourself if you could go back to day one of starting row? 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.559 So believe in yourself more, right? 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.759 Like I think that as a founder, you're especially a first-time founder. 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:55.599 You you think about all the things you don't know. 00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.759 What you don't realize is that nobody really has those answers. 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:02.240 And if you just you know are more confident and and push harder, you will go faster. 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.319 What is your favorite iOS app? 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.079 Perplexity, for sure. 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:06.720 Why? 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:07.920 It makes you smarter. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.119 It's like it's an amazing product. 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:15.679 It's the best, it's you know, it's the source of all like human knowledge accumulated over millennia in an app. 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:16.639 It's incredible. 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:17.599 Yeah, it's really good. 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.239 Actually, OpenAI is a real-time search is getting much better. 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.639 That is that's a side tangent. 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.000 And what's one book recommendation? 00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:33.280 One of my favorite books is this book called The Art of Learning, which is about it's about a chess player, but really it's about like how to solve hard problems and how to think about problems that you've never sort of solved before. 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:38.000 I read it when I was a portfolio manager and it was really, really impactful as I made the transition. 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:38.559 Yeah. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:39.039 Great. 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:39.440 All right. 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.760 Well, thanks so much for coming on and chatting about Ro. 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.239 And obviously, if you're listening, check them out if you're starting a business. 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:44.800 That's right. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.159 R H O dot co. 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.400 Uh and happy to support all founders. 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.360 We have a ton of perks for companies just getting started.