บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Builder Behind the IPO: Maia Bittner on Founding Pinch and Scaling Chime

she said, Hey Maya, you know, I know you're planning on going to grad school, but I really want you to think about the opportunity you're leaving behind here. 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.800 And I want you to join on as my co-founder and CTO. 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:20.639 So became the co-founder of Roxbox, but I feel like there's an asterisk or like a little caveat, you know, it's not like as much of a co-founder, sort of a junior co-founder role because I wasn't there at the beginning. 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:21.839 Megan really started it. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:32.879 And then I she hired me as a first employee, which having actually founded companies, you know, like being there from the beginning is really powerful and it indicates that somebody has that risk appetite. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:37.120 They can dump in and do what matters most and and move quickly. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:45.759 But there is a really big difference, I think, between being the first employee and being hired into something early and then actually being the one who started the company and is doing the hiring. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:46.879 It is not typical. 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.279 Like I don't hear about it all the time that somebody joins as an employee and ends up getting the co-founder title. 00:04:51.360 --> 00:05:04.160 But I think in that situation, it makes a lot of sense because you have somebody who has a big plan ahead and you know, you have to get them away from that plan, and they're providing zero-to-one value in a company with maybe one employee, one to two employees. 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.519 So I think that's really interesting. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:08.079 Have you seen that much with other founders you've chatted with? 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:09.519 No, I have right. 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.439 I think what you're saying is pretty uncommon. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:18.319 I did recently invest in a company which had two co-founders, uh, the CEO and the CTO, I believe. 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:23.360 And they switched roles, which actually felt it's funny, as soon as they told me, I was like, oh yeah. 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:28.079 Like, and I had even assumed that the that it was the way that the new way was. 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.160 And I feel like it was a much more natural fit. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:31.279 And and that made sense to me. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:32.319 So I saw, I saw that. 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.399 They switched who was the CEO. 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:39.279 And, you know, even within founding teams, or some question about the CEO role and how that plays out. 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.160 Founding team dynamics are super important. 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:47.199 And even there was tension with me and Meg because she was sort of the real founder. 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:53.439 And I was a co-founder in title, but like in every way, kind of less of a founder than she was. 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:58.560 You know, I had less equity and I wasn't there from the beginning, and it was her idea and all of those different pieces. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:12.560 And so I think there was a lot of tension as we are managing that and managing like what does it mean for us to show up as co-founders to our employees and to the press and to people that were, you know, all of those different relationships. 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:13.199 Um, yeah. 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:24.079 And I also think like the founding team dynamics, so much of being a successful company leans on that because without that, you're never gonna get out of the early days. 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.920 And if you don't get out of the early days, you're definitely not getting to big success. 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:29.600 And so, yeah, I I don't know. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:31.439 Like, I almost, you're like, oh, do I see that a lot? 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.160 And I'm like, no, I don't see that a lot, but probably for good reason. 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.000 And I don't really recommend it, right? 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:41.839 Like and you also mentioned, right, that you were going to do your masters and you had like this trade-off essentially. 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:48.319 Like, what what was it that, you know, about the company that you were at that you're like, you know what, this is the path I want to take versus the other one. 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:49.600 Yes, so many things. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.040 So I felt like Megan really had, right? 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:54.319 Her idea was really good. 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.879 And I could tell that people loved it, right? 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:58.399 People loved Rock's Box. 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:05.120 Our customers would send us love letters in the mail talking about how much they like the product and how big of an experience we had. 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:06.879 And I knew that that was something really special. 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:12.879 And my whole thing, right, was about how people interact with technology and how that can make a big improvement on their lives. 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.079 And here I was working at a company that was actively doing that. 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:17.680 I didn't need to go to grad school. 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:19.839 So all of this was felt very clear. 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:24.879 Megan also talked about she was like, Ma, like we work so well together and we are so powerful. 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:30.480 Like, I know that we will start a company together at some point if it's not rock spox. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:33.839 So, like, we can either do it now or like we will do it later. 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:34.639 And I don't know. 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:35.839 I thought, I thought she was kind of right. 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.040 So it just felt like it felt like I could go to grad school. 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:52.560 It was like an experience that I could sign up for at any point in my life, but it

felt like founding a company with somebody I worked really well with, um, with an idea that was really resonating with people, you you can't like call that up on demand. 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.879 So that's why I chose to um chose to do to do Roxbox instead. 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:57.519 That's awesome. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:59.920 And one last thing I I would just want to kind of comment on. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:02.480 I feel like founding designers are actually having a moment right now. 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:10.000 So it's interesting that you had a software engineering background, but you were going in for the UX designer role and kind of taking that path as you were thinking about grad school, even. 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:16.480 So it makes sense that that sort of mentality was really, really valuable at the beginning because you're thinking so much about what users need. 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:28.240 So I think that's I feel like it's finally coming around that people are realizing that value and they're like design is actually a role that we need in this company really early on, and particularly the type of designer that can flex into different, different thought spaces. 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:29.519 I was also gonna ask too. 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:40.080 I mean, you mentioned that you have, you know, uh the different kind of like uh tension that was in, you know, the early days, especially being not the, I would quit say quote unquote original co-founder, right? 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.080 Like you were brought on as the co-founder as well. 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.320 Um, and obviously we hear it all the time. 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.720 It's you know, the mindset that founders have to have. 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.799 Um, you know, they have to be really flexible, they have to have that grit, that resilience. 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:57.600 I'm curious, like for you, was there anything like outside of that, uh, you know, that outside of work that brought you like joy, kept you sane? 00:08:57.759 --> 00:08:58.960 Was it the work itself? 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.600 Yeah, how did how did you, you know, kind of go through all of that? 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:02.879 Yeah, great question. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.919 So at that point in my life, it was rock climbing. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:10.320 So rock climbing was a Billy, like I went, I mean, there were times I went to the gym. 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:15.840 I think on average, the rock climbing gym, it was like 40 times per month or something. 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:20.960 Like I would definitely go every day and then like pretty frequently twice a day. 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:23.759 So yeah, it was like a really big part of my life. 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.440 And that was every like every weekend was rock climbing trips out around the bay. 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:32.960 Um, so yeah, rock climbing was uh a really big, big part of my for sure. 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:39.039 Like then when I was at Pinch, honestly, a lot of it was investing, and I say investing in quotes, right? 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:44.000 Um, but it's doing those early stage coffee chats with aspiring founders and new founders. 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:49.039 And some of that is under this investing deal flow evaluatory lens. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:56.000 But honestly, it was really more about giving them advice and sort of like welcoming them to the founder community and supporting them. 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:04.559 And that's one of the things that, you know, should founders angel invest is a common contentious that shows up on Twitter from time to time. 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:13.840 And for me, I really felt like if I spent an hour doing coffee with founders, that would give me the energy to have like two hours at work. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:20.639 So it was actually, you know, it was more about looking at how to keep my energy high and motivation high. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.279 And that was a way that that was really helpful to do that. 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:33.200 While I think sometimes we can be too focused on time and we think like all hours of the day are the same, and any hour taken away is and just realistically, I don't think that's the case. 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:40.480 I think very few people are so productive that time is their limiting factor rather than like creative energy. 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:41.279 Totally. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:41.679 Yeah. 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.080 So we talked a lot about Roxbox and how that experience came together. 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.679 I'd love to talk about Pinch, which is what you did next, the the fintech company. 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:55.279 And for anybody listening, so Roxbox was acquired, which we'll get into later, but next came up with Pinch. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:11:00.799 So I would love to hear more about what Pinch did and what made you decide to solve that problem as a founder early on. 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:06.799 Yeah, let me talk to you about how we came up for the idea at the Pinch and how I did that transition from Roxbox. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:15.120 Um at Roxbox, I was working on we called it, I was the I I had did a bunch of different roles at Roxbox. 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:16.480 So I was a CTO. 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.879 We hired in a VP of engineering at some point, and I really passed off. 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:30.080 You know, we had built a team of seven engineers at the time we hired the VP of Engineering, and then I really passed off management of the engineering team to our new VP of engineering. 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:35.840 I went and focused on operations at that point in time, since that was really what was killing us. 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:42.559 Sort of redid our operations, pulled it up, and then hired in a VP of operations to run that. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:59.120 And then I worked on the next weakest point, which is actually my real

passion as a person and a professional and a founder, which we called the VP of customer lifetime, but it was really working on retention, on working on NPS scores, right? 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:02.159 Like how much do people like the product and do they stay with us? 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.240 And so I was a really right parallel. 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:05.759 We had our VP of growth. 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.360 And so she was responsible for getting new signups, and I was responsible for having them stay. 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.799 Um, and I dug into, I did a ton of projects on retention. 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:19.120 I really love this space, really love building products that people love. 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:27.759 But one of the things that impacted our retention, we were a subscription product and uh credit card failures would cause people's subscriptions to be canceled sometime. 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:30.000 And this was a space I really didn't understand. 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:31.360 I found kind of confusing. 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:36.480 And so I did what any, you know, user-oriented researcher would do. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.480 And I said, I'm just gonna call some people up and learn more about this problem space. 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:53.759 And so I called up some Roxbox members who had recently failing credit cards and I said, Hey, this is Maya from Roxbox, and I'm just looking to understand, you know, did your credit card expire and you need to update it with the newest information or what's happening here? 00:12:53.919 --> 00:13:06.720 And what I heard over and over again was a huge surprise to me, but I think uh maybe not a surprise to a lot of people in the industry I now work in, but it was that people they didn't have the money to pay for their Rocksbox subscription. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:08.480 That was why their credit cards were failing. 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:20.399 So either they had a debit card and the charge was being declined because they were out of money in their account, or they had a credit card and they were at their credit card limit and the charges were being declined for exceeding their credit limit. 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.720 They really wanted to pay for Roxbox. 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:24.080 They still loved the service. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.799 And they would sort of conspire with me on how to get the subscription charges to go through. 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:36.080 So they would say, look, I get paid on the last day of the month, and so I pay my credit card bill down then, but it doesn't get processed until the first. 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:41.440 And so if you run the charge through on the first, it should go through and then I can keep my rocksbox subscription. 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.559 So we were doing these sort of conversations like this, which I thought was very interesting. 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.000 But the problem, it just felt so big and so novel. 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.639 It felt so important and interesting to me. 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.559 And it felt like no one I knew was talking about this problem space. 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:04.799 And I also felt a little bit like, you know, like I had been so excited about everything we achieved with Roxbox and our growth was really good and we had all these signups. 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:12.720 But to see that people were in debt or literally trying to spend their last dollar with Roxbox didn't actually feel good. 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.440 Roxbox is renting costume jewelry, right? 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:21.519 And I don't know, you're not supposed to judge how people spend money and this is the whole thing, but like I am judging it. 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:28.639 I feel like the experience I created at Roxbox is not what you should spend your last dollar on, and it's not worth going into debt. 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:41.679 And actually, like it kind of negatively tainted all of you know all the executive meetings I was in that we were looking at our conversion rate and what ads were performing and things like that. 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.879 I'm like, we are converting people who cannot afford this product and should not buy it. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.679 And we had a whole like, you know, I thought the product was good. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:50.960 I had worked there for years. 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:59.440 We had this whole thing about empowering women and being able to wear different types of jewelry without having to commit to purchase it and they're saving money long term because they're not buying all this stuff. 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:07.360 All these things were sort of running through my head when my best friend from college reached out and he said, Hey Maya, we've always talked about starting a company together. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.879 I'm thinking about leaving Twitter and looking at my next moves. 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:12.399 Where are you at with Roxbox? 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:14.480 And so it was really, it was that perfect timing. 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:21.519 I was like, I just kind of, and you know, I also think sort of a privilege of not being the real founder, right? 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:29.039 I could leave Roxbox um and not like it didn't kill the company for me to leave because I wasn't the founder the way that Meg was, right? 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:30.559 Like Meg could not leave Roxbox. 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.279 I don't know if she'd ever thought of it, but she wouldn't have had that option. 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:46.000 And I sort of like had done my tour and left to go found Pinch, where we wanted to work on, we wanted to explore like what are the opportunities for software and tech to help Americans be more financially stable. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.360 With Pinch, we actually first thought it would be an insurance company. 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:51.360 Insurance was really hot at this time.

00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.840 Lemonade had recently raised a ton of money. 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:59.120 People were very excited about the opportunity for tech to impact the insurance market. 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.799 We thought we'd create like a modified property casualty policy. 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:09.440 So there's a like basically a renter's insurance policy, and we wanted to help cover the financial risk that people are actually facing. 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:15.039 So these are the things that it's like people were living on the margin, they had very little like extra buffer. 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:19.039 And there were these situations like getting their car towed that would then sort of push them. 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.720 It's like, okay, well, if their car gets towed, they don't have enough money to take it out of the tow yard. 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:23.519 They don't, right? 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:29.039 So it's racking up fees, then they can't get to work because they don't have their car, then they really don't have enough money. 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:30.000 Look at things like that. 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:36.159 So we looked at at designing this policy and kind of got started on it, and it was this huge flop. 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.320 Like, nobody wants to buy insurance. 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.240 People don't want to buy optional insurance. 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.240 Car insurance is required, and not everyone even buys car insurance. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.639 A lot of people are just like scooting by on the edge and hoping that they don't get pulled over. 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:58.559 Um, and then particularly for our user base, which was people who don't have a lot of extra money, selling them on an insurance policy that they may or may not ever use was a really hard sell. 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:04.559 So we sort of scrapped that, went back to basics, and we were like, look, lending is really the right solution. 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:10.319 You know, and we didn't want to be lenders, but lending's really the right solution for if your car gets towed, right? 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:11.359 You should borrow money. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.799 You should go get it ASAP. 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:18.559 Do not rack up fees and daily charges, keep going to work to earn more money and then pay back your loan. 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:24.799 And so we were like, if lending is the right product, why does this problem still exist? 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.200 And that's how we kind of discovered credit scores. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:33.119 And we found that um millennials have the worst credit score of any generation at their age. 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:39.759 They're sort of uniquely affected by the student loan crisis and a couple of other big macroeconomic situations. 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:44.160 And so people weren't able to affordably borrow money to pay for situations like this. 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:45.440 We looked at what they right. 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.039 Um, your credit score is often uh, you know, mortgage. 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:54.079 It's an auto loan, it's credit cards, it's kind of composed of the different ways that you borrow money. 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.599 And so we looked at what they are spending money on and they're spending money on rent. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:08.880 And so that's sort of how we got to the product promise of pinch, which is we built the best way for people to pay their rent, which included reporting those rent payments to the credit bureau so they could build their credit score by paying their rent. 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:21.839 But also we had all of these automated features around financial fitness, including like if you got paid twice a month, we could automatically pull out half of your rent out of each paycheck and then lump it together into that one rent check, right? 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.319 Rent was usually the largest bill that people had. 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.160 Usually they get paid more frequently. 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:32.160 A lot of people are doing things like having their entire last paycheck go to rent and then trying to live off the other paycheck. 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.480 So we did smoothing and a bunch of features around that. 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:43.599 So that's sort of how we how we got from me looking at retention with Rocksbox and running into this financial stability problem that Americans are facing. 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:57.519 Went through insurance, which was a bad idea, that we raised a bunch of money off of that idea, and pivoted into credit score improvement, which was such an obvious change in kind of product market fit and market demand, right? 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.960 The response for credit score improvement was way, way stronger than anything we went and saw with our insurance product. 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.319 And so we felt pretty good about it. 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:04.960 It's awesome. 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:07.440 And I've seen that from so many first builders too, by the way. 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.079 Like the type of folks that go in, they have an idea and they quickly realize, hey, this isn't gonna work. 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.319 But they by even executing on that, you realize what is the thing that is going to work. 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.480 And then you're kind of the captain that's trusted to guide the ship toward that route. 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.119 So that's awesome. 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.079 Because that's my it's like that's my personal background. 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:25.359 And yeah, you do see that a lot. 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:38.319 Like I actually I do really like founders that have kind of had a similar like they get excited about building something, they have an idea, they realize it doesn't work, and then they use the data that they learned from that idea of failing to build

something bigger. 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.039 So yeah, I'm very bullish on this founder profile. 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:49.599 And I also think, you know, I had spent so much time working on member experience and retention and product experience for Roxbox. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:57.519 I thought that meant I knew how to build a compelling product, but it's like rock, like the fundamentals of Roxbox are pretty good business. 00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:59.680 And Meg had figured that out, right? 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.920 And she had figured that out with her background and she had come, so I'd kind of gotten that for free. 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.319 And, you know, I don't think I took it for granted, right? 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:12.960 I knew it was special and it was enough to avoid, or turns out, like totally not go to grad school for and things like that. 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:19.680 But all of that focus on NPS, it's like NPS doesn't matter if you don't have any customers because they don't like your pitch, you know? 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.920 Like I had been so focused on like a little bit later stage of the funnel. 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:29.039 And so it was really eye-opening to go through those like early phases of what do people want in a product. 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:29.519 Yeah. 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.160 And I love that focus on like the customer retention side. 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:33.920 My background is in customer success. 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:50.160 So for any like CS retention, account management folks out there, like just hearing how you are talking about like how much that feeds really into the product experiences, the nuggets that you can actually pull out that you have made some assumptions potentially before, right? 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:51.359 Like based on the activity. 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:59.839 But when you actually go and talk to the customers, you figure it out, like, hey, they still are trying, you know, to get the product, even when it was just, you know, not going through. 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:05.440 So, you know, I love that like insight that you're getting really like on the customer success, like retention side as well. 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:07.440 Yeah, that's been my that's like my whole history. 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:08.160 I'm so passionate about. 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:15.200 And I think part of it is I'm so frustrated at a user anytime I run into bad product experiences. 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.799 And I'm like, you should know better, you should talk to people, you should do better. 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.480 Um so that's why that's the type of founder I want to be. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:22.960 Totally. 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:23.519 Awesome. 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:28.880 Regarding the type of founder you wanted to be, what do you think about your background made you more likely to be a founder in the first place? 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.119 Because not everyone is willing

to take that risk and and sees the opportunity and jumps in. 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.440 So just curious if there's anything that pops out to you. 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:36.799 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:39.119 In hindsight, it feels really obvious. 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:48.000 And even like, you know, like all through school, like everybody joked it was like we're all gonna be working for Maya one day, right? 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.039 And like, you know, like like in middle school and high school. 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:55.759 And so it feels sort of obvious in hindsight, but it didn't feel obvious at the time. 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:56.640 I think so. 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.759 I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life or my career. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.480 Um, when I was looking at colleges to go to. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.119 People asked me, they were like, Well, what are you good at? 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:06.880 And I was like, Well, I'm pretty good at math and science. 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:08.400 And people said you should become an engineer. 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.559 So I ended up at Olin College. 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.079 Um, it was a new school. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.079 I was part of the fifth class. 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.640 Uh, the first class ever graduated in 2006. 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.559 I joined as part of the class of 2010. 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:18.960 Yeah. 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:21.920 And they thought like education is broken. 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.400 Air it is broken, particularly for engineering, right? 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:28.400 And engineers are coming out of college and they're coming up with the same solutions to the same problems. 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.160 People don't know how to think outside the box. 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:31.920 They don't know how to work as part of a team. 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.359 They're bad at communicating. 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:36.559 Like America deserves much better engineers, and we're gonna make that. 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.519 And so it was, you know, it was really appealed to me. 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:41.759 Um, it was also free, no tuition. 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:48.480 Uh, and so I I went to Olen and my summer after Olin, I got a uh summer internship at an internet startup. 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.559 And I had always loved the internet. 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:55.680 I sold things on eBay all throughout middle school and high school, which was a big part of that time of my life. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:04.799 I was very into like alternative web browsers like Opera and um Firefox, which was actually called Firebird at the time that I was using it. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:09.920 I didn't know that that was like a job that people could work on these cool internet things. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.440 Or and it's like technology was always like I always love technology. 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.400 It's funny, I just had to clean out my bedroom at my mom's house. 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:22.880 And I have all these things from like second grade about it's like Maya has to choose a topic and like she's doing like technology. 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:24.480 It's always tech, tech, tech, tech, tech. 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:25.920 Like tech has been my whole life. 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.359 Um, I've always loved it. 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:32.160 I literally didn't know that this could be a job when I was in high school working in tech. 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:37.359 And it was my summer internship at an internet startup, which was awesome and actually kind of a similar thing. 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:39.680 I ended up dropping out of school and staying on for them. 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:45.279 Um that I was like, this is a job, like it was so clear to me that that's what I wanted to do and that's where I wanted to work. 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.960 And then I ended up going back to college and getting my bachelor's degree. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:53.119 But I always knew I was going out to San Francisco and I was gonna work in tech startups. 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.119 And so I was very focused on that. 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.200 I never thought of being a founder and you know, I kind of tripped into it, right? 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:01.519 I was just a very early employee with Meg. 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:05.200 I thought what she was building was really special and I was really excited about it. 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:07.119 I worked my ass off. 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:12.640 That's just kind of my personality and childhood trauma, but like works well in the tech industry. 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.200 Then she ought, right, she invited me to be a founder. 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:25.200 And I think uh I was pretty, so I was pretty young to have been the founder of right, Roxbox, when not raised series A, like raise$10 million. 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:28.319 Um, and I was pretty young to have that experience. 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:32.400 And so I do think I kind of tripped into it as soon as I was a founder. 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.000 I was like, this is it. 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.559 Like this is this is what I this is what I'm meant to be. 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:40.960 And I'm sort of, you know, I'm kind of like anti-establishment and stuff like that. 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.160 And I think I don't always work well for other people. 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:46.079 I don't think I'm a great employee. 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:49.519 Um, I think I'm a much better founder than I am an employee. 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:54.960 Yeah, no, it's super interesting when you talked about like also like going to Olin College as well. 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:58.640 Um, because I noticed actually that you um are focused. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:04.160 Like I think one of your like investment funds that you work with, right, is really focused on

like Olin founders. 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:10.559 And there's a lot of discourse today about like Silicon Valley based founders versus like Ivy League based founders as well. 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:16.559 And obviously you're kind of going against like maybe the the grain on that by investing in the non-Ivy League founders. 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:22.480 What do you think, like, you know, those types of founders at Olin or outside of the Bay Area have as a sudden edge? 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.079 Yes, I think Olin alumni make exceptional founders. 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.000 And it's really, what's a couple of different things? 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:37.759 If you look at the type of person that goes to Olin, basically they all got accepted to Ivy League schools or MIT, which is not Ivy League, but kind of more relevant in the engineering world. 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:47.359 And so they all got accepted to like much more prestigious schools, schools with a much bigger brand name that their grandparents recognize, rather than this random school no one's ever heard of outside of Boston. 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:50.400 And yet they chose to go to Olin anyway. 00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:56.960 And I kind of think it's that that makes, well, that's one of the factors that makes them really exceptional founders. 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:13.119 It's some kind of like thinking for themselves and, you know, not not going for the brand name success, not going for what other people have deemed as high status, but looking at their own priorities and choosing to do those instead. 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.559 It's funny, like I feel like I've been, I don't know exactly how I want to say this. 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.640 Like, like in the early days of Roxbox, it was like a a bat job. 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.440 I don't know if that makes sense. 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.359 Like, right, but it was, it would like my all of my friends were making a lot more money at Google, right? 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.200 All of my friends had graduated from Olin. 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:33.839 Olin actually has the highest average starting salary of any four-year undergraduate institution in the United States. 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.319 Their alumni make a lot of money and people really love them as employees. 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:50.960 What everyone says is that hiring a new grad from Olin feels like hiring somebody like three or four years out of school because they have the skill set to work as part of a team and all of those other skills that Olin facilitates. 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:52.240 And it's just engineering. 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:53.599 So they're technical people, right? 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:58.000 They join like Google and Facebook as engineers and product managers and they make a lot of money. 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:02.640 I was working at Roxbox, a company no one had ever heard of, and making not that much money. 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:07.759 And it

then became much bigger and everyone's really impressed, and they're like, wow, you're a founder of Roxbox. 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.119 But you have to go through that time where like it's a pretty low status role. 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:16.559 And now, you know, I think culturally being a founder just in and of itself is kind of higher status. 00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:21.920 But I think a lot of people know in those early days of founding something, it's like not that high status, right? 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:28.079 If you haven't raised any money and you don't have any customers, you don't have any employees, you don't have any press messengers, it's not an impressive thing. 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:29.759 And you have to be able to make it through. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:39.279 So I think part of why Olin alumni make great founders is they've already gone through that experience of turning away from the brand name and doing what's important to them. 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:41.599 And I think that's the found like that's the experience of founders. 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:47.359 You're turning away, it's you could go work for Google, you could go work for Facebook, and instead you're gonna start your own thing. 00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:48.160 So there's that. 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:50.160 Then of course, like it's an engineering school. 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:51.839 So they're all technical. 00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:03.200 And I think like if you create, you know, they they tried to create their like this engineer of the 21st century, which is an engineer that can think outside the box, communicate, solve problems, work as part of a team, be ambitious. 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.279 Like it turns out that's really great. 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:09.599 But maybe it's the engineer of the 21st century, but it's also really incredible founders. 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:10.559 And we've seen that, right? 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:14.160 There's only about a thousand people that have ed or graduated from Olin College. 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:24.319 But if you look at the percentages of alumni that have got on to found companies that have raised 10 million, 100 million, a billion dollars, it's like they're much higher percentages. 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:28.720 Sorry, I don't think anyone's raised a billion dollars, but they have companies worth a billion dollars. 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:29.440 Awesome. 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:34.240 Yeah, it's like much higher percentages than alumni from Stanford and things like that. 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:36.240 So like it is, I think the numbers are there. 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:37.119 It's a very small school. 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.039 Only 75 students graduate per year. 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.920 So it's very, very few people. 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.119 Um but they've founded some big impressive companies so far. 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:49.359 They've certainly had some like big I'm trying to think. 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:54.240 I think like nine-figure exits, Guy Dio's worth a couple billion. 00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:55.839 That was founded by an Olin alumni. 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.359 Wow, I didn't realize that. 00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:58.720 Yeah, super cool. 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:06.799 So there's been some big companies like I've invested in um a bunch of early stage companies with the fund, and I feel I feel very good about it. 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.640 It's been, yeah, it's been a big focus. 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:14.480 Um, and it feels awesome to work on in part because Olin is it's still not the brand name, right? 00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:18.480 I think it's easier to raise money if you graduated from Stanford than if you graduated from Olin. 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:23.839 And so I want to help give people, you know, it's a leg up, but only to be a level playing field. 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.319 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:28.640 And when I heard you talk about it, it really sounds like it's like the mindset piece of it. 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:32.000 Like I love when you mentioned, like, hey, they chose to do this. 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.720 And I mean, it's the same thing like for the successful founders. 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:40.880 Like they have to really choose it and also understand and know what they're almost like getting themselves into a little bit as well. 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:53.039 So, you know, the fact that they've chosen something against the grain such so early on probably will give them that same, again, that mindset to like, you know, when they found a company later on to continue and persevere. 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:53.599 Exactly. 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.880 I think being a founder is like it can be very lonely, it can be very hard, it can be very low status. 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.400 And it's funny, I don't hear people talk about status much. 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:08.319 It's like kind of not okay to talk about status, but it is a big part of our lives and communities. 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:10.640 And I think it impacts people really deeply. 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:21.519 And it's funny, I felt it myself, which I think being the founder of Rocksbox and then the founder of Pinch are like much more high status than now, which is like, um, I actually still work at Chime. 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:22.559 I work at Chime. 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:30.400 I have this like tiny fund that I raise with the really specific investment criteria of all in college alumni, and I'm a partner extractor. 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:39.519 It's like I've got some cool things going on, but it's kind of it's like less high profile, less visible than when I was a founder of Pinch or the founder of Roxbox, right? 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:41.039 So it's kind of lower status. 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:48.400 And it's funny, I feel like people are often asking for like, what's the big cool thing I'm building? 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:53.039 And

I'm like, I don't have a big cool thing that I am building at this point in my life, in this phase of my life. 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:59.279 And people try to be like, oh no, but actually, like, I feel like they're they're trying to be like, no, you're still like, you're still all this big thing. 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:07.519 And I'm looking at them and I'm like, look, I never really cared about other people's assessment of me and the work that I'm doing. 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.759 And I didn't care about that when I joined Rock's Box as the first employee. 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:18.720 And I didn't care about that when I got promoted to being co-founder, and I didn't care about that when I left Rock's Box to start something new. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:19.680 And do you know what I mean? 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:21.680 Like, and now I am right. 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.720 Like, I feel like now I just had like I have this like random job. 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:29.039 I'm like this like low-level independent contributor for a random company. 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:33.599 And I'm like, you know, I've got like got these little things, and I still don't care what other people think about me. 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.759 But it it's funny to see like those reactions. 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:49.839 And I do think it's a big, um, it does like I have to say, like it felt a lot better when 10 times a day people would tell me like how cool and impressive and precocious and smart and how incredible it was that I was a founder of Roxbox, even though it was only 24 years old. 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:50.400 Like all that. 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:51.839 That feels really good. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:59.279 And I think for some people, going like going from a position like that where like if they're at Google or whatever, right? 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:07.200 All of your parents' friends have heard of Google, they're very impressed to go from that to I'm the founder of you know, science. 00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:08.480 Company if you've never heard of. 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.680 Yeah, you've never be really rough for people. 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:14.720 And a lot of people are not prepared for that job. 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:15.759 Yeah, definitely. 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:25.039 It's funny you mentioned that too, because I've seen a lot of tweets from folks being like, Well, my parents just discovered my job is real when they read about it in the New York Times, you know, like five years into the founding journey. 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.200 So you're so on point. 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.480 Like the, yeah, it's it's a low status role, it's not glamorous. 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:38.559 You're doing like all the grunt work, not just the the cool stuff like the fundraising and the sales and the product stuff, but there's just everything that you need to do behind the scenes. 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.000 So I like that you're kind of in it for the right reasons and you've had that DNA. 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:47.119 Even when you were at risk of getting addicted to it because you were in a high profile role, you're still like, you know what? 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.000 I don't need to have that extrinsic value attached to what I'm doing in order to be working on something important. 00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:54.720 So I think that's really important uh for a lot of founders. 00:32:54.799 --> 00:33:12.000 Um, and even at the council, like one of the top three things we look for is like alignment with the mission and like in it for the right reasons, because I find that, like you said, a lot of founders from Stanford and the Bay Area can raise capital very quickly, but can they build a sustainable business past just raising the capital for a business? 00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:18.960 Um, you know, and some of them can, but it also, you know, you get weeded out at a certain point when you have to show the metrics at series A and series B. 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.319 And so I've definitely seen like founders outside of the Bay tend to have that. 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.039 If they're gonna do it, they're doing it for a reason, sort of thing. 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:27.279 So um, yeah, it's super cool to hear that. 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:32.640 Yeah, there's so many interesting, and I think this part of your kind of thesis on how amazing these first builders are, right? 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:40.480 Because if you're one of the first employees of a startup, an early stage startup, you've probably already been through that experience of like like that's kind of low status too, you know. 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:42.240 You had to do it, you've been through it. 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:42.559 Yep. 00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:42.960 Yeah. 00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:43.680 You know what it's like. 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:46.720 So it's less of a drop to found a company. 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:54.559 I also, you know, I feel like in some ways I was lucky that because I work, I feel like I'll work at Chime Now, I work for big tech. 00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.519 It's like really, I don't I uh uh okay, I was gonna say it's really cushy. 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.960 I don't want to say it's not like you know, there's all this stuff about like email jobs, not quite like that. 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:12.960 But what I mean by cushy is like if you want to hire someone, this is probably probably all your list, probably everybody's worked for big tech, and everyone's like, why is this news for you? 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:38.079 Okay, but if you want to hire someone, right, you like come up with a job description and then your recruiter posts it and your recruiter reaches out to people and your recruiter phone screens everyone and your recruiter identifies like promising candidates and then surfaces them to you, and then you bring them in for an interview loop with you as the hiring manager and also a bunch of other people who are

relevant. 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.559 And like that is really nice. 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.400 Like, I'm like, damn, I see how a person could get used to this. 00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.880 If you are hiring for an early stage startup, like, I mean, just it is so much work. 00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.599 And it's funny, people are like, oh, if you like building things, you should be a founder. 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.480 I'm like, no, if you like recruiting, you should be a founder, right? 00:34:54.719 --> 00:35:02.960 20% of your brain all the time, including while you're sleeping, needs to be thinking about recruiting, needs to be thinking about like who are the ideal candidates? 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:06.000 Why would like what are they looking for in their next role? 00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:13.119 How can you sort of like like squeegee your company into the shape of what they want in their job, right? 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:15.519 So it's like you've got your dream candidate and you're not gonna get them. 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.760 So, like, who's kind of like your dream candidate? 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:31.360 They've got 80%, but they also they've got some rough edges and they don't want to work Tuesdays and they've right, and like taking them out to drinks and going out to drinks and going out to drinks and going out to drinks and selling people on like what you're trying to build and do it, like I mean, the recruiting is just relentless. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:37.679 And this is if you're so lucky to have the resources to hire people and to be growing quickly enough to justify hiring new roles. 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:39.519 Um, but you do so much recruiting. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:45.840 And my first experiences hiring people in big tech, I was like, dude, this is so nice. 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.840 And there's a lot, like all of that infrastructure. 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:53.039 You have a whole IT team that deals with all the annoying IT stuff. 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:59.920 And you've got right, like I just really all of you know, knowing that things are compliant, like all of those things. 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:01.519 There's even like a compensation team. 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:02.559 You don't even need to think about it. 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:04.400 You just like, you know, approve at the end. 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:06.559 Yeah, you just like approve the like offer. 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.760 Yeah, you don't even think about how much to pay this person or like come up. 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.280 So I think there's a lot of weaknesses in this approach. 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:19.599 And I think there's a lot of opportunities for startups to hire really incredible talent by outmaneuvering recruiting teams at big tech. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.000 But as somebody who like now works at big tech, I'm like, dude, this is like a really is really luxurious. 00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:27.920 Yeah, that's I don't want to use the word cushy. 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.599 I want to use the word luxurious. 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:31.519 Yeah, it's a nice setup for sure. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:39.519 And you know, and speaking of which, too, it's it's really interesting because it's very rare to see founders like stay at their choir for as many years as you did. 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:44.400 What was it about Chime that made you want to stay aside from the luxurious, you know, setup that you had? 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:46.000 Full recruiting. 00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.639 I mean, we were only, I only was only gonna stay a year. 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:53.599 And we the pinch acquisition, it happened really quickly, really, really, really, really, really quickly. 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:59.440 I we met with, so we worked really closely with Satya, who was the partner at Homebrew that led our precede round. 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.000 And we met with him usually every two weeks and had all the updates on our product and things like that. 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:08.239 And at some point he was like, he was sort of like, guys, this like this is not working. 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:17.679 And he was like, you need to go back to the drawing board, and maybe it's not even fintech, but you need to kind of start again from scratch, come up with a problem and build a solution to it. 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:21.760 Like maybe it's a problem you have personally, but like this is not working, you need to bail on it. 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:26.079 And so my co-founder, Ducker and I, we talked about it, and he was he was jazzed. 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:28.239 He was like, We're gonna go figure out all these ideas. 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.079 And I was like, not jazzed. 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:38.559 I was like, look, I've spent a lot of time in early stage, like I've spent a lot of time doing customer interviews and prototyping websites and coming up with that. 00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:42.239 And like, I don't know, like I really wanna be scaling something. 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:48.719 I really want to be doing that work of improving a product that has product market fit, but turning it into experience people really love. 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.679 And I don't know that I'm I'm ready to go back to square one. 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:52.800 And so talked to that. 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:57.039 We talked about, I was like, you can have all my equity if you want to keep going as a solo founder. 00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:58.800 I was like, I don't think there's anything here. 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.599 And then we ended up, we decided to shut the company down. 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.559 Like, truly cannot explain to you how quickly this happened. 00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:08.559 Like, I think it was June 18th that we met with Satya. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:12.159 And then like June 21st, we decided to shut the company down. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:14.239 And we had money in the bank too.

00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.719 Like, we totally had enough money for another go-round. 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:18.639 Um, so we weren't out of money. 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.360 We were out of, like I said, it's that energy and enthusiasm. 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:35.679 We've been doing it for two years, and this is something I tell people a lot is that I feel like you kind of have most people have about two years of like pushing something forward without other enthusiasm for pushing forward the flywheel. 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:42.320 Like you need customer energy or press or investors or employees, like somebody else helps to help you push this thing uphill. 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.440 If it's just you, like you kind of run out of steam after two years. 00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:56.079 And so we were there and I was like, look, if this can technically be an acquisition in any way, that would just look a lot better on my resume than if it's just shut down a company. 00:38:56.239 --> 00:39:06.559 And so we were like, okay, we'll we'll we'll try to sell a company and we're gonna try and do it really fast because we know we have the money in the bank and we don't want to burn down all of our money trying and failing to be acquired. 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:08.960 Like we want to just give it back to investors if that's where we're at. 00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:18.960 And so we sent out like 50 emails to like everyone, like it was like every fintech company and then just like a couple other companies that you know might do fintech stuff that could be relevant. 00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:24.880 Like I think we emailed a friend to Airbnb and Corp Dev and um and things like that and sort of ran a process. 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:30.079 And we told people that we had to know by the 4th of July if they were really interested. 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:37.440 And we ran a super quick process, and I think it was done with chime and all wrapped up like by 25th. 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:41.039 Um, though all the legal paperwork and stuff took some other time. 00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:44.480 I started working, I think August 15th for Chime. 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.519 And yeah, and so it happened really fast. 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:50.079 I had not really thought, had not really thought. 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:51.599 So I was like, I'm gonna spend a year there. 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.960 Part of the reason why it happened so quickly is Satya at Homebrew. 00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:04.239 So he had invested in Chime, that was a homebrew company, and he sort of architected a lot of that acquisition behind the scenes, which I think investors often do. 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:11.920 And that was, and we loved, like, I had met Ryan King some years ago at a homebrew portfolio founder dinner where we were just getting started. 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.440 And I actually I wanted to join Ryan and Chime at that time because I thought Ryan was like really special. 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:18.079 I still do. 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.559 Like Ryan is just like an outstanding person. 00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:22.719 And I was like, this guy is something else. 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.400 Like, I want to go work for this guy. 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:29.360 Um, and so yeah, I I wanted to join Chime at the very beginning of our pinch journey. 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:31.199 But my co-founder, Michael Ducker, right? 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.719 This was his first company, and he was like, no, I want to go do like the, I want to do the startup thing. 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:40.239 He's like, if you want to join like a smart person, he's like, there's a lot of smart person, people with like interesting companies I want to start around. 00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:41.360 And I was like, that's fair. 00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:42.880 Like, that's what I signed up for with you. 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:43.440 Let's do that. 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:48.320 And so then, yeah, when it like wasn't working, we came back with our tail between our legs to join Time. 00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:50.000 Ryan is awesome. 00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:54.000 We felt like the people at Time, I was like so nice. 00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:59.760 We like accidentally kind of sat in on their weekly all hands because it was at the same time as one of our meetings. 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:01.840 We're like, the energy here is so good. 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.280 These people are so nice. 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:06.079 Like, let's just like let's land here. 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:08.639 We had three requirements for our acquisition. 00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:11.039 We wanted job offers for both Ducker and I. 00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:16.239 We wanted equity for our investors, and we wanted it to technically count as an acquisition, right? 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:23.199 We wanted to be able to say we were acquired by time, not like we talked to Stripe, and Stripe was like, you cannot say that you were acquired by Stripe if we do a thing. 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.360 And so we were like, okay, something that we want. 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:33.440 And so, yeah, and I was like, okay, we'll be here for a year because I need to spend the next year like figuring out now what, right? 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:47.360 I was like sort of the founder of Roxbox, and Roxbox had like a really like mediocre exit to a public jewelry company um that was sort of the founder of Pint, and Pint had this like mediocre exit to Chime, which is a big fintech company. 00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:54.400 And I was like, given that this is I like, I was like, I feel like I need a year to get my head on straight and figure out what I want to do with my career and like what are the next steps for me. 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.079 So I was like, I'm gonna be at time for a year. 00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:57.119 I am still at chime. 00:41:57.360 --> 00:41:59.760 So it was 2018, it's now 2025, right? 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:00.800 It's like

seven years later. 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:07.440 And the answer for I'm still at chime, honestly, is it's different at different points of time, but yeah, I really like it. 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:09.679 And time, it's grown so quickly. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.719 For one, I feel like being at time has like whacked me upside the head. 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:20.639 And it's been a really important lesson as a founder on like this is what product market fit looks like, right? 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:32.559 Like really everybody like just hanging on by the skin of their teeth, like as it's growing, like just and and it's almost like it feels like I feel like we made a bunch of mistakes at time. 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:36.559 And it feels like even if we screw up, like all of the numbers are good. 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:37.199 Do you know what I mean? 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:41.920 Like growth, it's like it's almost like you cannot stop the growth and the amount of money it's making. 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:46.239 Yeah, you have downward momentum and stuff like pushing a ball up a hill. 00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:47.840 Exactly, exactly. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.960 It's like, yeah, if you can right, it's a pushy ball downhill. 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:52.880 And it's like if you can push it faster, great. 00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.039 And like it's been a bunch of successes that have done that. 00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:56.960 But even if you do nothing, it's still going. 00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:01.840 And even if you do the wrong thing, like it's not enough to stop this ball from going downhill. 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.840 And so that I think has been like a really awesome lesson for me. 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:10.159 I think growth and like, you know, um, there's a quote by a poet, right? 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.440 Chaos is a ladder. 00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:15.440 I think like when a company's growing so quickly, it's like there's a ton of opportunity. 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.199 And it was just like it's just really exciting to be at a company that is growing so quickly. 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:20.320 And to be, it's funny. 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:28.320 Like at the time, I didn't feel early because Chime was raising its like like they'd raised, I think, their series B and then they raised their series C soon after we joined. 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.960 So for me, it felt quite late stage. 00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:40.480 But it's funny now there's a bunch of people at Chime who are like, Ma has been here so long, like since the you know, since the beginning, like it it doesn't feel like the beginning for me because I know what the actual beginning looks like. 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.159 But I think I was employee like 75 and Chime has had, I don't I don't know, like 1200 employees or something like that. 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.719 Um so yeah, it's like it's fun, it's exciting. 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.840 A, right, like I feel like I I don't know, I

just really love my job. 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:59.679 I work from home, I work on like really interesting, cool problems with really passionate people. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.079 I feel like I have a ton of control over what I work on. 00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.480 And I get to do things the way that I like, right? 00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:08.239 Which is like in this high quality way. 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:14.880 And I get to do the thing that I'm really passionate about, which is like making a product experience that people love and at a really big scale. 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:20.960 I think part of Yeah, so I think like in the early days, I mean I was like, I'm just gonna be there for a year. 00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:28.079 So it's sort of just like hanging tight and learned a bunch of new things and then had a bunch of cool opportunities. 00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:33.679 And then I feel like at this point in time, I think I have like a lot of cred at time. 00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:42.800 Um, and people trust me, but that means it's like, I don't know, I'm just so excited to go to work every day and I'm so excited to like think about the problems that I'm working on. 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:46.159 And like I said, you know, I was like, I don't think I'd be a very good employee. 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:53.280 It's because like if you ask me to do something that I don't want to do, like it's basically like I'm not gonna do it. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:54.239 It's basically impossible. 00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:58.000 Like I have no ability to do something I'm not bought into. 00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:02.079 And I'm not talking about like I'm just like like, you know, unethical things or anything. 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:04.639 I'm literally just talking about something that like I don't think is important. 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.199 Like it's impossible for me to get that done. 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:07.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.599 And like, I don't know, my job I get to work on stuff that I think is super important. 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:18.159 And then when there's stuff that like I don't think is important, it's like everybody's gotta do the whatever. 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:24.400 I'm like, eh, you know, I think that like this doesn't apply to me, and I'm gonna I'm gonna opt out of that thing that I don't think is important. 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:26.880 So that's why I've been there for so long. 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:37.360 I also think like, well, when I first joined Time, I felt like my history, so I felt like Roxbox, I had created this experience that people loved, but it wasn't actually like a great business, right? 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:41.920 It was very operationally intensive, margins were low, like it's not a great business. 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:46.639 Then at Pinch, I had also created a product that people loved, and it also wasn't a good business. 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.360 Um, and I feel like, right, we brought this up several times. 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:56.239 Like, I'm so passionate about good user experiences, but you have to marry that with compelling business models. 00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:02.079 And I think it's easy to forget, I think particularly in tech, like our first big business model of tech was advertising. 00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:06.000 And the way that advertising works is like as long as you make something that people like, you make money. 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.320 Like as long as you make something that people like Facebook. 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:15.280 If people like Facebook, if they spend enough time on Facebook, if they keep looking at Facebook, Facebook makes money because they sell ads when people are looking at Facebook, right? 00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:18.480 But like not all businesses work like that. 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:24.719 Yeah, and probably it generated so much thought pieces from that era that like founders get that advice today. 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.280 Like, just build something customers love and it's gonna take. 00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:30.239 Yeah, build it and they will come. 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:37.119 Um I felt like I had built two product experiences that people love, right? 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:44.960 We were one of the like, you know, we were on like Life Hacker, one of the top-downloaded apps and the Google Play Store, like all this stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a great business. 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.639 What I found compelling about Chime is frankly, it's like the business model. 00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.639 Like the business model is my favorite thing at time. 00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:53.599 Part of it is like there's some regulatory arbitrage and things like that. 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:55.440 It's like a little bit like not that pure. 00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:57.840 But um, business model is my favorite piece of time. 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:00.400 So Chimes, most of Chim's revenue is from interchange revenue. 00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:04.400 Interchange revenue, interchange fees are the fees that merchants pay to accept credit cards. 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:10.719 The bulk of those fees actually go to the issuer of the credit card, which in the case of Chime credit and debit cards is Chime. 00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:12.639 So Chime gets interchange revenue. 00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:14.320 It's a fee the merchants pay to accept the cards. 00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:24.800 So Time gets to offer a product for free or like very low fee to its customer and make a bunch of money from merchants, but merchants don't really have a say in it, right? 00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:29.519 I think if we look again at Facebook's business model, Facebook builds a product for consumers. 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.079 They want people to like it a lot and advertisers pay them. 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:35.679 In some sense, advertisers are Facebook's real customer. 00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.280 They're the

ones that are paying money. 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.719 And Facebook needs to serve the advertisers to be a good business, right? 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:47.199 They have to like serve up the users' like intent and clicks and wallets in order to make money. 00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:52.480 But time, the merchants are not like the real customer in that same way. 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.599 Time doesn't even have like time doesn't have a relationship with merchants. 00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:59.920 It's all mediated through um Visa and other credit card networks. 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:06.000 Like, and interchange rates are kind of like they're set and there's like a schedule and there's some negotiation, it's a tri-party negotiation, like it's complicated. 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:17.679 But it's not, it's not like time and the merchants have a relationship, and time is like really serving up our customers to the merchants, the way that I kind of think Facebook serves up its users to advertisers. 00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:20.079 And so I just felt that so I was like, this is so cool. 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:32.079 I'm able to make a product that like the more people use it and the more money they spend on time, the more money that Chime makes, but without having to charge Time members anything because it's all funded by merchants. 00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:33.199 I just thought it was the coolest thing. 00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:34.159 I love the business model. 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:38.559 I actually, so when I joined Chime, we talked about like where in the org I should be. 00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:41.599 And I said, I want to be on the finance team, right? 00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:48.239 I don't have a finance background, but I really felt like I was missing that piece about how to create a really compelling business. 00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:52.320 And when I look at like, dude, how am I gonna found a billion-dollar business in the future? 00:48:52.480 --> 00:49:01.440 I feel like I've got the skill set to make like product experiences that people love, but I don't know how to create that business model that really works in the same way. 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:03.840 So I actually joined Times finance team. 00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:05.440 I was there for the first year. 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.079 And then there's a bunch of transitions and re-orgs and stuff. 00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:11.440 We brought in a new guy, chief business officer reported him, things like that. 00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:31.519 Um, and it was our SVP of product um was like, hey Maya, like I know that you're on the finance team, but you are always highlighting these like high friction user experiences and like these pain points that you've heard people talking about that is like really compelling for us and has really helped us step up our product experience. 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:34.960 Like, how can we make this your full-time job because you're creating so much value? 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:37.360 And I'm like, yeah, this is my thing, right? 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:41.679 Like I was trying to address a weak spot by being on the finance team, but like really that's my jam. 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:50.000 And so I actually joined the product team and I started a team at time called Voice of the Member, which um, and then grew that to be um a bigger team and stuff like that. 00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:55.920 And so Voice of the Member was really focusing on like, yeah, identifying pain points and surfacing those and getting them fixed and things like that. 00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.239 So like I ended up doing that at time, but that's not how I started. 00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:02.159 I started on the finance team because I found their business model really compelling. 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:06.559 And I was like, this is a skill that I need to be a big founder in the future. 00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:07.360 That's awesome. 00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:08.719 First of all, two things. 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:14.320 Number one, thank you for sharing your kind of process for getting acquired because I feel like a lot of companies go through that. 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:24.639 Like, you know, of course, as a VC, we imagine that every company in our portfolio is going to go through an IPO or like a multi-billion dollar exit, but we know realistically that's not gonna happen for most of the portfolio. 00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:27.760 And a lot of acquisitions happen the way that you just shared. 00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:30.880 And I think, you know, not many people talk about their exact experience like that. 00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:34.800 So I love that you shared that and even just the tactics of like what are the steps you go through. 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:48.159 And then second of all, uh, that experience at Chime, scaling from like, I think you said 75 to like 1900 or something employees, just seeing that level of change within an organization while you have downward momentum and true product market fit is like, you know, an incredible. 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:50.880 It's like a window into a world that some will never see. 00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:53.119 And so it's just super cool that you've had that experience. 00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:56.239 Um, so we're gonna transition into a rapid fire round. 00:50:56.320 --> 00:51:00.320 So we're gonna ask you some really quick questions and you you're just supposed to say the first thing that comes to mind. 00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.239 So uh I'll let Rachel kick off. 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:02.880 Yeah. 00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:05.679 Um, best early product that you've ever used. 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:06.960 I don't have a good answer here. 00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:13.119 Like I'm gonna say superhuman, which I feel like is a big cliche and not that interesting, but that's my answer. 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:13.920 That's what I think of. 00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:14.400 Awesome. 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:16.639 And favorite

founder ritual or productivity hat? 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:27.199 I did like going on vacation or retreats um with the same like ideas, like you've gotta you have to focus on like your energy and enthusiasm and momentum there. 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:31.119 And often what people need to be more productive is they need to take a step back. 00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.000 Is there one founder that you would back in any market? 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:36.800 Lots of Olin founders and um lots of people. 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:43.039 I would I would say like most founders and I've often backed people and not even known what company they're building. 00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:43.599 Awesome. 00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.000 And you have strong opinions on parenting that you've shared online. 00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:47.119 What's your hottest take? 00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:51.840 Probably just that this is again a cliche and makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:52:02.480 But I do think it's important to remember that like nobody makes money off of saying, like promoting the parenting philosophy that you should just like kind of wing it and do what seems right to you. 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.519 But that I feel like is like my parenting philosophy. 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:07.760 And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:10.239 And it has been really successful for me. 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:15.679 So yeah, that's my parenting philosophy is like just wing it, do what seems like the right thing to do. 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:17.840 Um, and I think more people could embrace that. 00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:21.599 Then last one, would you ever start or would you ever found a startup again? 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:22.000 Yes. 00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:23.840 I think at the moment, yes, totally. 00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:25.199 I'm very excited about that. 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.679 I do think like my fund is a startup, you know. 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.800 I mean, I don't know, I had to like incorporate you have to found that. 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:31.280 Yeah. 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.719 Um, it was harder to raise money for the fund than for my last startup, but that's okay. 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:37.920 I like doing hard things. 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:40.400 And I would love to, yeah, I'd love to find a startup. 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:44.639 Right now, I'm excited about founding companies and not raising venture capital. 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:48.480 So sometimes when people say would you found a startup, they mean venture backed specifically. 00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:53.360 And I'm kind of more excited about founding outside of that ethos. 00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:54.559 I feel like I've done that. 00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:55.920 I was not that successful. 00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:56.719 I learned a lot. 00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:57.599 It was super fun. 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:01.360 I know I have this big drive to build a big business, but I'm not sure that. 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:02.719 And I mean, I love VCs. 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.000 I do investing myself, right? 00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:05.920 But like I feel like that's not my next path. 00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:06.639 That's awesome. 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:10.079 And especially with AI, it seems like that's more possible these days, too. 00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.360 Okay, so we're gonna transition to founders' wish list. 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:21.039 If you had a magic wand, um, what's thing one thing you would fast forward for number one, yourself, and number two, the future of fintech and AI. 00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:27.920 Yeah, I mean, I feel like fast forwarding AI in general is kind of an answer. 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:28.960 Like there's so much enthusiasm. 00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:30.960 I use AI like quite a bit. 00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:34.239 Um, and like a lot of it freaking sucks, I have to say. 00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.760 Like a lot of the coding that I do with AI, I'm like, this is garbage. 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:39.280 It's so bad. 00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:45.599 I know, and like everyone's talking about like all the success they have, and I'm like, this is I'm not having the same experience. 00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:50.480 The same thing with writing, like, I feel like it's really helpful to have AI make a first draft. 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:53.360 And then I basically rewrite the entire thing. 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:55.599 Like, I don't use any of the AI words. 00:53:55.760 --> 00:54:02.239 It is a helpful productivity hack to have it do the first thing, but like all of the words end up being mine in the end because it's our two bads. 00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:03.039 And so I don't know. 00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.800 I feel like I feel like there is a bunch of cool stuff that can happen with AI. 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:14.480 We need to focus on, like, I think the agent stuff is cool, and I think making a version of the web that agents are able to operate, which a lot of people are talking about, like, I'm excited about that. 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.679 I'm like, let's skip forward to when that is reality. 00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:25.039 And like AI agents can really easily navigate the web and accomplish me things really, like that I'm very excited about. 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:28.639 The future of fintech, I actually think I don't know. 00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:33.360 I'm excited about like, and there's a lot of talk about employment opportunities in the US, but I I don't know. 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:35.840 I'm I'm excited about fintech's role in it. 00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:38.159 Used to be called the gig economy, and then that went out of favor. 00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:41.440 There's a creator economy, and I think that's on the outs now. 00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:50.159 But I'm still really like I'm really excited about the possibility for software and technology to help people make money in ways that fit in

well with the lives that they want to live. 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.000 I think Uber was huge for this. 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:55.280 Uber, like, you don't have to schedule it in advance, you just turn on your app. 00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:58.320 Like you can make money any time of day, any day of the week. 00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.719 You don't have to, like, that's so powerful. 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:07.199 I also I even think like like working in Amazon warehouses is like kind of a shit job from many perspectives. 00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:11.280 But from others, it's like, look, you can do it as like as long as you want to. 00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:15.920 You can kind of do it from like anywhere in the US because like there's Amazon warehouses everywhere. 00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:26.000 There's all of these advantages, and I think um tech has the opportunity, like we still have so many constraints around the ways that we work that like chafe with the way that people live their lives. 00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:29.039 And I think there's the opportunity for tech and fintech to help merge those. 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:30.719 And so that's a future I'm excited about. 00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:31.840 Great chatting with you guys. 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:33.599 And we can't wait to see what you build next. 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:34.800 So yes, excited. 00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:35.599 See you too. 00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:37.280 And where can people find you also? 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:38.000 On Twitter. 00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:41.920 Okay, yeah, I'm on Twitter at at Maya B M-A-I-A-B. 00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:43.199 That's the best place. 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:47.360 I feel like the algorithm, it's currently not really favoring my tweets. 00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:48.880 It goes in and out in phases. 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:51.760 I'm I'm out of style right now, but I'm I might be coming back. 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:52.159 I don't know. 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:54.480 I try periodically. 00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:55.039 Right. 00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:59.920 You may or may not see me in your feed, but that's the best place to keep up with what I'm up to. 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:01.039 Thank you so much, Maya. 00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:01.760 Thank you. 00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:03.280 Oh, that was fascinating. 00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:06.320 Rachel, I'm curious what stood out most to you in Maya's story. 00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:12.800 Yeah, it was so much, but the thing that really drew me was how it was so important to think for yourself in this ecosystem. 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:20.880 And she emphasized it a lot when she mentioned not liking working on things that aren't moving the needle or that don't align with her personal values. 00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:27.360 Yeah, and I think it's that focus on intrinsic value versus extrinsic value, which can get so many founders caught up in the early phases. 00:56:27.519 --> 00:56:33.920 And I think there's one piece of advice I got from her that I think translates to our portfolio is that it's gonna be rough as a founder. 00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:38.239 So make sure you're in it for the right reasons because it's gonna be low status and challenging for a while. 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:39.519 Yeah, absolutely. 00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:51.360 And then the other thing, too, that she really emphasized, and you could just tell she lit up a lot during that, was whenever she talked about the user experience, that delightful customer experience and that retention of the customer as well. 00:56:51.519 --> 00:57:06.239 And I thought it was really fascinating that even though she had those experiences early on in her career, it really wasn't until she was at Chime that they got that downward momentum and that real product market fit and that pull from their customers to see it take off as well. 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:20.480 Yeah, and I love that you you talked a little bit about that rapid growth phase because I believe it's those experiences of not only seeing the inside of a successful company, but seeing it at a time where they were going from like vulnerable to really high growth in a really exciting phase. 00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:23.440 That's when you really learn things like do we have true product market fit? 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:24.559 What does it really look like? 00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:26.559 What are the different levers we can pull? 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:33.280 And those are really, really valuable things to learn and take into your next experience as a founder if you're gonna found a company in the future. 00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:35.119 So I thought that was really interesting. 00:57:35.199 --> 00:57:38.159 She mentioned that and, you know, tracks with the sort of people that we look for. 00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:39.280 Yeah, absolutely. 00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:46.320 Well, if you love this episode, please leave a review and subscribe to First Builders and feel free to share it with your favorite operator. 00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:48.159 Yeah, and next time definitely tune in. 00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:49.599 You won't want to miss it.