บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 37 - It Made Sense at the Time: Debating Plot Holes from Indy to Middle‑Earth

00:04:52.236 --> 00:04:53.832 on continuity and they didn't make the changes, 00:04:54.700 --> 00:04:58.896 so yes so that but the causes of it is also something that I guess we can get 00:04:58.896 --> 00:05:04.416 into fixes I think or we're going to maybe try our write our hands at maybe 00:05:04.416 --> 00:05:06.598 fixing somebody's yes we're going to kind, 00:05:07.136 --> 00:05:12.376 of break the rule again after breaking the rule so many times advice, just stab at, maybe. 00:05:12.376 --> 00:05:15.556 Sure, but I guess we're better than George Lucas, clearly. 00:05:16.176 --> 00:05:20.096 Well, yeah, we'll get to Star Wars, because there's... Is there? Star Wars. 00:05:21.516 --> 00:05:26.791 So, at the top, I mentioned Raiders of the Lost Ark, and specifically, 00:05:27.456 --> 00:05:30.946 and there is actually in existence a fix for this plot hole, 00:05:30.946 --> 00:05:36.646 so maybe this is a bit of a cheat on our part, but it's the point where Indiana 00:05:36.646 --> 00:05:41.608 Jones and Marion are tied to the stake, and they're opening the Ark of the Covenant. Right. 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:49.099 The power of God comes out of the Ark and starts melting Nazi faces. Yes. 00:05:49.418 --> 00:05:56.781 Woo! And Indiana Jones and Marion survive because Indy says, Marion, don't look. 00:05:57.159 --> 00:05:59.115 Yes. Keep your eyes closed. Yes. 00:05:59.765 --> 00:06:04.226 How did he know that? At no point throughout the entire rest of the story does 00:06:04.226 --> 00:06:08.936 Indy learn that the power of God from the Ark of the Covenant will kill you 00:06:08.936 --> 00:06:10.795 if you look upon it. Yes, he does. 00:06:11.916 --> 00:06:15.005 No, it was, and this is what I mean, this is what I'm starting with this one 00:06:15.005 --> 00:06:17.017 because it's a very easy, easy fix. 00:06:17.244 --> 00:06:22.795 There is a scene in, that was deleted from Raiders of the Lost Ark in which 00:06:22.795 --> 00:06:26.166 Indy and Salah are discussing the headpiece. 00:06:26.864 --> 00:06:30.885 And there's an old wise man who's there you don't see him in the actual movie 00:06:30.885 --> 00:06:35.728 but an old wise man he's interpreting the runes and symbols around the headpiece 00:06:36.158 --> 00:06:39.641 and he actually reads it to say that, 00:06:40.545 --> 00:06:46.315 essentially that no one can look upon the power of God and survive and that 00:06:46.315 --> 00:06:50.785 scene was removed Okay then I'm going to have to go back and re-watch this is 00:06:50.785 --> 00:06:54.055 giving me excellent reason to go back and re-watch Raiders Yeah, any excuse? 00:06:54.055 --> 00:07:01.215 That I have a clear image in my head of Indy going to a, 00:07:01.775 --> 00:07:06.363 it was a, it's a black and white what looks like pencil drawn image in a book 00:07:06.611 --> 00:07:11.475 of the rays of the light coming out and people dying all around. 00:07:11.475 --> 00:07:14.835 Yeah, that's when he's in the museum talking. Yes, at the start. 00:07:15.795 --> 00:07:20.925 But he is, he's saying to the government guys saying that any army that carries 00:07:20.925 --> 00:07:22.669 the Ark before it will be triumphant. 00:07:23.290 --> 00:07:30.545 Yes, so So I always took that to be they're hiding a piece of information while 00:07:30.545 --> 00:07:32.589 they're discussing something else. 00:07:35.155 --> 00:07:40.485 So I don't consider that much of a plot hole. The hole in Raiders is that indeed 00:07:40.485 --> 00:07:42.826 means nothing to the story. 00:07:43.244 --> 00:07:45.825 His decisions have no impact really on the end. None at all. 00:07:45.825 --> 00:07:53.335 The only impact that it has is that the arc ends up being stored away in American Warehouse. 00:07:53.695 --> 00:07:59.755 That is his only only contribution to the entire story because if he simply 00:07:59.755 --> 00:08:00.857 gets in the way of the Nazis and, 00:08:03.142 --> 00:08:07.312 and he basically he points them in the wrong direction while he's digging in 00:08:07.312 --> 00:08:12.862 the right place and he doesn't destroy the Ark when he has the opportunity he 00:08:12.862 --> 00:08:17.142 gets captured as you mentioned and all he does is not look yeah, 00:08:18.802 --> 00:08:25.082 but how did he know to tell Mario not to look but it is revealed in a deleted scene sure but I, 00:08:26.182 --> 00:08:32.702 never because of that first shot of that book saying you know as in people cowering at the light then, 00:08:33.682 --> 00:08:38.032 don't look it's like but there's also in that picture there's an army behind 00:08:38.032 --> 00:08:44.362 the arc and they're they're marching forward like it's up on a hill around the 00:08:44.362 --> 00:08:47.558 light with but the entire there's another army behind the arc, 00:08:48.385 --> 00:08:55.199 as the people are holding it up I don't remember that but the I mean I've only seen it five times. 00:08:57.539 --> 00:09:06.142 Good good good yeah it's indelible indelible but it is sufficient it's like the old list when, 00:09:07.622 --> 00:09:13.782 a holy item begins to emit light close your eyes it's in the evil overlord list 00:09:13.782 --> 00:09:15.723 yeah but it could have easily killed him anyway, 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:20.492 like whether your eyes were closed or not it's possible but sure why not close 00:09:20.492 --> 00:09:25.704 your eyes yeah yeah it is almost like you could say it's almost a mark of respect that, 00:09:26.642 --> 00:09:31.088 no one shall look on the light all that jazz So, the flaws in it, 00:09:32.182 --> 00:09:35.227 the reason why I thought you wouldn't go for it is that. 00:09:36.388 --> 00:09:42.767 Even if we take the deleted scene as a plot hole, the story itself works, 00:09:43.842 --> 00:09:50.112 without Indy's involvement, without the deleted scene, that the story is so 00:09:50.112 --> 00:09:53.762 phenomenally good that it carries you through. 00:09:54.197 --> 00:09:57.939 And this so that's really why I

thought it would be an exception to this because 00:09:58.317 --> 00:10:00.909 there is it is the rare story where, 00:10:01.801 --> 00:10:07.067 the fluking car where it didn't it's just it could be just nonsense but, 00:10:07.537 --> 00:10:11.849 each scene carries forward each it does think that the you know why is why is 00:10:11.849 --> 00:10:17.029 marion you know in fucking mongolia where they find her not really known as like or, 00:10:17.689 --> 00:10:22.209 why does she have the thing not really it's the one piece that is like so it's 00:10:22.209 --> 00:10:24.720 very much you could almost call that contrivance 00:10:25.062 --> 00:10:31.179 but you don't because it's set in almost this Pulp Fiction-y world of, 00:10:31.179 --> 00:10:32.949 you know, of... Of the 30s. Yes. 00:10:33.489 --> 00:10:38.150 1930s. It is, whatever came after, you know, the Pulp Fiction, 00:10:38.539 --> 00:10:43.676 what was it, Flash Gordon, you know, that sort of era of entertainment. 00:10:44.389 --> 00:10:48.249 The traveling by map. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These sort of tropes, 00:10:48.249 --> 00:10:50.705 the fact that, yes, he has a gun in them, but... 00:10:51.669 --> 00:10:59.069 The whip. Yes, he has he has a a thing that gets and it is him a a. 00:11:00.893 --> 00:11:03.786 Shirt that is never fully tied and that, 00:11:05.249 --> 00:11:08.436 the only thing the only thing that's holding it together is the satchel strap, 00:11:09.221 --> 00:11:11.318 and for some reason the whip always comes back, 00:11:12.228 --> 00:11:15.569 it is so always ties onto something flawlessly, 00:11:16.329 --> 00:11:21.799 that he can swing it and unties exactly when he needs to untie so he's there 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:25.309 just going pulling on and it's going I can't no I have to leave it behind yeah, 00:11:25.929 --> 00:11:29.709 never I know it happened like that I really whipped it on there pretty good yeah, 00:11:30.369 --> 00:11:35.379 never happened it's just a nice well structured well put together movie from 00:11:35.379 --> 00:11:45.269 what 1981 82 yeah and it still lives up to today yeah it holds up so so no I shall dismiss, 00:11:46.042 --> 00:11:51.987 your attack indeed okay your scurrilous attack I can't badmouth Indiana Jones 1, 2 and 3. 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.379 I mean, there only were three. The Stranger they never made, 00:11:56.379 --> 00:12:00.584 no, hang on, yeah, Crusade was three, yeah. The Stranger they never made anymore. 00:12:02.199 --> 00:12:04.639 It's good they left it well. I mean, it's almost like they wrapped it up very 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:08.324 neatly on the third one. Incredibly neatly. Yes, they didn't need to do any more. 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.879 Well, I know why they didn't make any more movies, because they couldn't have 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:14.559 made them any better than that trilogy in and of itself. 00:12:14.959 --> 00:12:17.959 Yes, an unplanned trilogy, absolutely. 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:23.739 A wonderfully buttoned-off thing. right we will move along to because I have 00:12:23.739 --> 00:12:28.379 another one here which is are you going to cause me to an angry outburst again 00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:32.248 we'll go to Lord of the Rings we're what? Lord of the Rings. 00:12:35.119 --> 00:12:38.577 Are you trying to slip in some Rings of Power shit because that's full of foothills, 00:12:39.439 --> 00:12:42.759 I don't know what that is it's something that also never happened, 00:12:44.319 --> 00:12:48.589 it's coming back Lord of the Rings again this blah hole might have been discussed 00:12:48.589 --> 00:12:50.349 to death there are many people you 00:12:50.349 --> 00:12:56.858 know, the fans of these I'm trying to remember, please go on there is a, 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:00.199 it's not a plot hole however, 00:13:00.719 --> 00:13:04.879 then this whole episode about plot holes is going really well, 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:09.464 it's been seen as a plot hole, okay, by many who maybe perhaps don't understand, 00:13:10.311 --> 00:13:14.479 okay, well that's a good type of plot hole, as in for the ignorant let's go, 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:21.459 so the eagles why did they not just fly everybody to Mount Doom and Happy Days. 00:13:21.459 --> 00:13:25.929 They get on the eagles, eagles fly to Mount Doom, Frodo hops off, 00:13:25.929 --> 00:13:28.427 drops the ring in, everyone's back before tea. 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.019 I can understand the... 00:13:35.738 --> 00:13:38.808 I'm going to rewind. I wouldn't call it an ignorant statement, 00:13:38.808 --> 00:13:42.178 because you'd have to know a lot about the lore in order to go, 00:13:42.178 --> 00:13:43.185 yeah, I understand that. 00:13:43.545 --> 00:13:46.372 But also, it was a covert mission. 00:13:47.043 --> 00:13:51.796 There was an army in the way. Not of eagles. What there was in the way, though. 00:13:54.611 --> 00:13:59.790 Was the Nazgul. Was the Nazgul, and in fact, the Eye of Sauron. Yes. So... 00:14:01.164 --> 00:14:06.170 But it is quoted as a thing, like, you know, in the intersphere of people going, 00:14:06.170 --> 00:14:10.441 oh, that's so stupid, the eagles should have just flown them to Mount Doom. 00:14:10.766 --> 00:14:13.262 But yeah, you have the Eye of Sauron, which would have spotted them. 00:14:13.401 --> 00:14:16.577 Yes. And sent the Nazgul, which would have ripped them all apart. Yes. 00:14:17.252 --> 00:14:20.330 So that's a good reason why they didn't do that. Yes. But yet, 00:14:20.330 --> 00:14:23.510 it is still cited as something that, well, maybe they could have got them as 00:14:23.510 --> 00:14:27.265 far as, or maybe they could have just somewhere flew around. You know. 00:14:28.610 --> 00:14:37.553 But I think that, that, suffers from the eagles being used in the travesty that was the Hobbit movies. 00:14:37.797 --> 00:14:40.990 Yeah. That they were, I think, at the end of the first Hobbit movie, 00:14:40.990 --> 00:14:45.410 then they hopped up on

the backs of the eagles to take them basically the rest 00:14:45.410 --> 00:14:47.191 of the way, basically from waypoint to waypoint. 00:14:47.591 --> 00:14:52.311 Yeah, exactly. But when you see where they land and then you see how far away, 00:14:52.983 --> 00:14:59.200 Erebor is, it's like, it still looks like it is weeks away when they land. 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:03.150 The eagles like yeah this is as far as we go pal but again that could have been 00:15:03.150 --> 00:15:07.380 like we're afraid of the dragon going any closer well yes no but i think i think 00:15:07.380 --> 00:15:12.952 that that is a much much bigger plot hole yeah that once you introduce the facility, 00:15:13.610 --> 00:15:17.630 and don't use the rest of it like you you have one of the you have you know 00:15:17.630 --> 00:15:22.790 gamoff going yeah come on come on and then i'm going no why the fuck would they 00:15:23.230 --> 00:15:26.850 bring them so far and that's not even a little bit further because that, 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:28.510 you know, a smog's not going to come out. 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:32.910 He doesn't come out. That's what, that's the problem. He has a aura of fear, 00:15:32.910 --> 00:15:36.460 but he doesn't actually visit that upon the villages around him. 00:15:36.460 --> 00:15:39.570 For a bird, perhaps that is enough of the, you know, they go, 00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:42.880 but they have, but you have a little, they have, well, they, 00:15:42.880 --> 00:15:46.336 I'm going to get them, they will, I near with them. So, 00:15:47.109 --> 00:15:51.729 They have essentially a godling with them. That's not going to be an issue. Yes, exactly. 00:15:53.149 --> 00:15:59.429 But I think there's evidence from, it's either, I think it is in the books, in Lord of the Rings. 00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:04.739 It's only the movies where people have watched and go, why can't they use the 00:16:04.739 --> 00:16:06.259 eagles to get all the way? 00:16:06.764 --> 00:16:14.609 But I think it is stated in the books that the eagles wouldn't deign to be so 00:16:14.609 --> 00:16:19.343 close to anything so evil as the one ring and that they just, 00:16:19.471 --> 00:16:21.415 they could, they couldn't stand to be around it, 00:16:22.081 --> 00:16:25.179 and therefore they wouldn't carry Frodo to anywhere. 00:16:25.179 --> 00:16:28.219 They wouldn't go near Frodo or anyone that has had that ring. 00:16:28.219 --> 00:16:31.939 They, they would have just avoided completely because they're, 00:16:31.939 --> 00:16:34.305 they're like creatures of like pure good. 00:16:35.049 --> 00:16:38.369 And they couldn't actually physically be close to the one ring. 00:16:38.369 --> 00:16:42.990 I think it is stated somewhere there. In The Hobbit, who's carrying the one ring? 00:16:43.954 --> 00:16:48.894 In The Hobbit, yeah. Yeah, no, no, yeah. Who's carrying the one ring? 00:16:49.670 --> 00:16:52.189 Who's carrying the one ring in The Hobbit? Bilbo, the guy that they're carrying. 00:16:52.189 --> 00:16:57.449 They're carrying, yeah. So that is another bullshit line that it's... 00:16:58.569 --> 00:17:02.049 Or else the Hobbit movie's ignored from the books. 00:17:02.389 --> 00:17:06.769 The Hobbit movie's did a lot of bad shit. So we can't ignore them as Peter Jackson, 00:17:07.509 --> 00:17:09.963 being forced to create something that he doesn't actually want to do. 00:17:10.955 --> 00:17:16.980 Yeah. So, yeah, so the, but so you could, this is a good talking point in that 00:17:17.421 --> 00:17:21.832 there are those things that are seen as being bad. Yeah. 00:17:22.541 --> 00:17:28.369 But it is, it is clearly not that you are, it's almost like a, 00:17:28.749 --> 00:17:31.209 a, an audience intelligence test. 00:17:33.277 --> 00:17:34.618 Can you figure why aren't they there, 00:17:36.175 --> 00:17:39.438 Do you have to, do I have to spend the next 15 minutes of this car ride away 00:17:39.438 --> 00:17:41.758 from the cinema to explain to you how this shit happens? 00:17:42.226 --> 00:17:46.978 Or can we just understand, understand that it was, that the story is about the 00:17:46.978 --> 00:17:50.068 journey that you're focused on the end. 00:17:50.068 --> 00:17:54.838 And indeed, one could almost use this as a, as a diagnostic tool for the, 00:17:55.398 --> 00:17:59.112 the type of person watching, you know, because there's people who like endings, 00:17:59.478 --> 00:18:01.098 who just, who want the big battle. 00:18:01.254 --> 00:18:04.498 They want the, yeah, they want the, they want the guy to get the girl. 00:18:04.643 --> 00:18:07.098 They want the girl to get the guy. They want all that stuff to happen. 00:18:07.098 --> 00:18:09.038 The dopamine release. Exactly. They want that thing. 00:18:10.458 --> 00:18:13.183 There's people who want the journey. They want the experience. 00:18:14.020 --> 00:18:18.802 And maybe you could make the statement that these days with the, 00:18:20.161 --> 00:18:25.478 TickTucker clips of just getting to the end of things. 00:18:26.018 --> 00:18:31.986 Just get right to the end. But yeah, all the way through. Then you're missing the story. 00:18:32.218 --> 00:18:35.986 You're missing the journey. So yeah, they could have just picked them up and dropped them off. 00:18:36.183 --> 00:18:39.318 They could have used parachutes. A line of dialogue though from Gandalf would 00:18:39.318 --> 00:18:41.944 have said that they couldn't, you know, taken it from the books. 00:18:42.408 --> 00:18:46.098 They could have given Gandalf a line to say that, no, they can't, 00:18:46.418 --> 00:18:48.968 they can't abide being so close to the ring. 00:18:49.718 --> 00:18:52.048 Something like that would have went, ah, everyone would have went, 00:18:52.048 --> 00:18:57.259 okay, yeah, that's, Gandalf said it, it's true. So we're not questioning his wisdom in this. 00:18:57.560 --> 00:18:59.976 Problem is, Gandalf wears well in the rings. Yeah. 00:19:01.347 --> 00:19:07.360 Well, it's the one ring,

I think. Sure, but that one ring is still connected to the one ring. Yeah. 00:19:08.375 --> 00:19:12.190 So, and I don't know if Sauron wears one, but I know that Gandalf wears one 00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:14.225 of the rings. Yeah. One of the other ones. 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:20.570 So, it also means that when they go in and they fight the, because there is 00:19:20.570 --> 00:19:27.339 scenes, and maybe it's in Hobbit again, bad movies, where they are fighting 00:19:27.471 --> 00:19:29.294 the, oh, it can't be in the Hobbit. 00:19:29.988 --> 00:19:34.990 I have a scene in my head where they're, oh no, maybe from Rings of Power when 00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:39.096 the eagles are fighting the Nazgul the Nazgul all have rings, 00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:46.042 that's what they are so the abhorrentness or a anti-aura or whatever, 00:19:47.020 --> 00:19:48.300 I don't buy it as much as. 00:19:50.863 --> 00:19:56.452 It's like you shouldn't need to explain everything. Yes. 00:19:57.147 --> 00:20:02.667 And this comes back to one of my... And I think, sorry, but I think in the movies 00:20:02.667 --> 00:20:06.047 it does explain that the Nazgul are in the sky. They're watching like... 00:20:06.307 --> 00:20:08.947 It doesn't relate them to directly. I don't think it explains, 00:20:08.947 --> 00:20:11.657 but the thing is, that's probably what I'm saying, that it doesn't explain it. 00:20:11.657 --> 00:20:17.517 Yeah, but they're in the sky. But you know when you're watching the second movie, as in they're there. 00:20:17.517 --> 00:20:22.387 When you say maybe it was the third movie, when they're attacking the city, 00:20:22.387 --> 00:20:28.017 that they're a presence. In fact, both second movie and second movie and third 00:20:28.017 --> 00:20:30.807 movie, you see them on their respective wyverns. 00:20:31.187 --> 00:20:39.042 So they are an air force that Gandalf has to ride out and actually push away. So. 00:20:41.076 --> 00:20:44.313 It is, it comes back to, the thing I was going to say was, it comes back to 00:20:44.499 --> 00:20:50.443 my oft-hated trope about when someone says oh I love the world building, 00:20:51.598 --> 00:20:56.107 and I was like no you love what of the world building you've been shown you 00:20:56.107 --> 00:20:59.864 don't get everything you don't get all of the, 00:21:00.647 --> 00:21:06.607 all of the decisions that have been made by that writer or those writers displayed 00:21:06.607 --> 00:21:13.819 for you you just don't get them you get a fragment of them and you shouldn't expect, 00:21:14.585 --> 00:21:17.404 someone to then spend even more time because. 00:21:19.047 --> 00:21:22.617 There's going to be a balance between exposition and info-dumping. 00:21:23.676 --> 00:21:27.548 And saying, you know, you have the eagles appear twice. 00:21:28.199 --> 00:21:32.234 You have them once rescuing Galenalf and once at the end to do the pig-up. Yeah. 00:21:33.644 --> 00:21:38.607 If you are focused on trying to figure out why

they weren't previously around, 00:21:39.164 --> 00:21:44.844 in a world where magic is dying out, maybe you're looking at the wrong spot. 00:21:45.744 --> 00:21:50.704 And fair ado is, well, I'm going to enjoy, I'm going to go home and watch it again. 00:21:51.484 --> 00:21:56.804 Between now and going to work tomorrow I have at least now 10 hours of Lord 00:21:56.804 --> 00:22:00.294 of the Rings and 2 and a half hours of Indiana Jones to watch fuck it no I'll 00:22:00.294 --> 00:22:02.084 watch all three pretty much yeah, 00:22:03.275 --> 00:22:09.214 so yes I will happily be in defense of yeah there is it's asking it's a curious 00:22:09.214 --> 00:22:14.818 case of asking for more exposition in and I imagine the same person would ask 00:22:14.934 --> 00:22:17.866 for there to be a more streamlined story, 00:22:18.533 --> 00:22:21.383 like we don't get details of where Shadowfax is from? 00:22:21.865 --> 00:22:26.062 No. None at all. He just shows up. He gets... He whistles. Yeah. 00:22:26.399 --> 00:22:29.052 The next minute, he's like, he must have been quite close. 00:22:29.604 --> 00:22:33.237 Was he following Gandalf? Yeah. Was he around the corner? What the fuck? 00:22:33.725 --> 00:22:36.087 It's like, did Gandalf go to where he just hangs out? 00:22:36.984 --> 00:22:41.294 Why did Gandalf let... If you want to talk about contrivances or false plot 00:22:41.294 --> 00:22:44.391 holes, why did Gandalf let Gollum follow him? 00:22:45.552 --> 00:22:52.074 Why? There was absolutely no reason for him, except for except for the the sense 00:22:52.074 --> 00:22:56.841 of things to come yeah but that's that's Gandalf all over isn't it like he has this sense. 00:22:58.547 --> 00:23:04.170 He can't see the future, but he kind of reads the past and present enough to maybe guess. 00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:10.890 I would say that that is more of a plot hole than anything else because if he 00:23:11.210 --> 00:23:13.245 knows what's to come, he didn't prepare them for his own death. 00:23:14.590 --> 00:23:16.330 His own transformation. 00:23:19.590 --> 00:23:27.210 There is things you can point at. Why didn't he know about Durin digging too deep. 00:23:27.767 --> 00:23:31.888 Why didn't he know about the barok coming up? Because given that they are of the same. Yeah. 00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:40.123 Why didn't he know that? Why did he even think to ask Frodo the most stupid of the questions? Okay. 00:23:40.378 --> 00:23:44.099 Do we go over the mountain or go under the mountain? By the way, go under the mountain. 00:23:44.425 --> 00:23:49.561 There is something so profoundly powerful down there that is going to kill me 00:23:49.764 --> 00:23:52.266 or has the potential of killing me. 00:23:52.457 --> 00:23:55.534 But it's wet out here. It's snowing. 00:23:56.670 --> 00:24:01.330 It's cold but why even ask that question this is the contrivance because you 00:24:01.330 --> 00:24:07.630 are because this is a story about these you know if you you can look at

Lord 00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:09.892 of the Fellowship as the Hobbit story, 00:24:10.356 --> 00:24:12.210 as primary because that's where you spend most of your, 00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:17.530 time then when it goes to Two Towers they're all over everyone's all over the 00:24:17.530 --> 00:24:20.838 place so you have everyone's story and even like, 00:24:21.592 --> 00:24:24.870 you don't get like it's not Logolassa story or Gimli story they are essentially 00:24:24.870 --> 00:24:28.410 with the clowns in a Shakespearean sense because they don't really get their 00:24:28.410 --> 00:24:32.090 own story except for things that were in the extended edition. 00:24:32.304 --> 00:24:37.680 So you have literally the path of the return of the king and the path of the 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:39.928 two pairs of hobbits and that's it. 00:24:40.439 --> 00:24:46.935 So there's a lot of you could or even as I'm going through the contrivance of, 00:24:47.382 --> 00:24:52.400 Gandalf arriving exactly when he said he would when at the start it's like he 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.529 never arrives he only arrives where he'll attend to. 00:24:55.340 --> 00:25:02.219 There's all these little lines in this wonderful story, which could be pointed 00:25:02.219 --> 00:25:05.895 to as being bad, but they're not. 00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:12.511 When you were saying about the question of, oh, where shall we go? 00:25:12.947 --> 00:25:20.429 You imagine some outback hiking guide going to the tourists that just showed 00:25:20.429 --> 00:25:24.349 up from Ireland, going, which way do you think we should go through this? 00:25:25.343 --> 00:25:31.159 Spider-infected forest or crocodile-infested waters, which, you know, 00:25:31.159 --> 00:25:34.819 it's up to you which, you know, a guide should be guiding at that point. 00:25:34.819 --> 00:25:42.424 Sure, but it's more that, shall we go through the slightly risky the slightly risky mountains or the, 00:25:44.472 --> 00:25:46.049 the will kill us all. 00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:52.552 They managed to get away from the orcs and the goblins or the goblins, 00:25:52.837 --> 00:25:59.588 but the and the cave troll they have a cave they have a cave troll and the Balrog so it's there is, 00:26:00.331 --> 00:26:08.419 if you want to to nitpick to find you can you can nitpick until your heart comes 00:26:08.419 --> 00:26:13.479 home shall we move on then but there's no plot holes here alright let's move on then, 00:26:14.477 --> 00:26:22.576 um so I mean ones we were looking at well I was looking at again these are kind of like uh, 00:26:23.969 --> 00:26:31.499 I suppose, commonly or largely discussed online kind of things that people say are potholes. 00:26:31.499 --> 00:26:35.017 That may or may not be potholes, but I think... Oh God, what were you going to go on? 00:26:35.774 --> 00:26:39.802 Well, I think there was one there in relation to the Prisoner of Azkaban. 00:26:40.679 --> 00:26:46.210 So in the Prisoner of Azkaban, it introduced...

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. 00:26:46.627 --> 00:26:51.331 It introduces this idea that... Or Hermione has this device called a time turner. 00:26:52.662 --> 00:27:00.179 Yep. Except she can use it to go and do extra classes, is how she explains it. 00:27:00.719 --> 00:27:04.759 And so they introduced the idea of time travel. 00:27:04.962 --> 00:27:08.375 They put it into existence. I know, you know, we probably have a couple of time 00:27:08.375 --> 00:27:11.465 travel-y ones like that, or Back to the Future one as well that I'm thinking 00:27:11.465 --> 00:27:13.496 of. Back to the Future is perfect. 00:27:15.411 --> 00:27:21.145 Well yeah yeah yeah we'll get there so time travel is established and, 00:27:22.254 --> 00:27:29.385 they never use the time turner to prevent tragic events that occur like the 00:27:29.385 --> 00:27:34.393 death of remus or sure any of these things and then in a subsequent book they destroy them all, 00:27:35.072 --> 00:27:40.668 except for the one they kept around for the cursed style which they use to go back in time yeah, 00:27:41.845 --> 00:27:43.575 yes the time turners are absolute pieces of shit. 00:27:43.749 --> 00:27:47.823 This is a wonderful example of that, that Rowling can't write for shit. 00:27:48.766 --> 00:27:53.205 They are absolutely, profoundly, 100% pieces of caca. 00:27:53.745 --> 00:27:57.654 It is a bad idea. It is worse than a bad idea. This is a. 00:27:59.693 --> 00:28:03.853 Whatever you add, whatever story, especially if you're writing an ongoing, 00:28:04.865 --> 00:28:10.379 series, whatever you add, first thing first, if you're writing an ongoing, 00:28:11.011 --> 00:28:15.385 saga, an ongoing series of books, you are bound by the things that have gone 00:28:15.385 --> 00:28:20.655 in the past yeah and by saying that i'm not bounding you to them you're bounding 00:28:20.655 --> 00:28:21.986 yourself to them yeah that, 00:28:22.745 --> 00:28:27.135 if you have made a decision about the metaphysics of the world the super science 00:28:27.135 --> 00:28:29.678 of the world that x can't happen, 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:37.793 then it is you have to be very very specific about allowing x to happen in in in the future, 00:28:38.872 --> 00:28:44.184 The time turner was a, ain't it cool moment. Yeah. It was a, 00:28:44.393 --> 00:28:48.282 let's, as I said, let's give Hermione the time to do an extra class. 00:28:49.217 --> 00:28:53.801 Because that's just like her. You can't do them in the evening when everyone 00:28:53.801 --> 00:28:55.831 else is just hanging out. 00:28:56.891 --> 00:29:02.491 If you just look at it in a microcosm, absolutely. But if you then extrapolate 00:29:02.491 --> 00:29:04.693 that out going, okay, she has this small. 00:29:07.711 --> 00:29:12.376 Necklace-like device flip over time turns that she just randomly picked up somewhere 00:29:12.545 --> 00:29:18.263 no she was given it yeah she was going to buy either McGoggle or Dumbledore to do extra classes, 00:29:19.216 --> 00:29:22.281 which means that they have access to it yeah which means that they have access 00:29:22.281 --> 00:29:28.491 to a much much better version of it much much much better so that means that 00:29:28.491 --> 00:29:31.991 time travel exists in the universe yeah but limitations I think that's, 00:29:32.978 --> 00:29:38.291 maybe part of the key that might fix something like that is had limitations 00:29:38.291 --> 00:29:43.331 being placed on the time turner as in you can only every time you use it, 00:29:45.431 --> 00:29:53.121 it costs you a certain amount of time of your life limitations make powers better, 00:29:53.731 --> 00:29:55.864 I'm not quoting one of Sanderson's, 00:29:56.811 --> 00:30:04.167 this existed before Sanderson ever existed limitations in powers are just good it costs to do stuff, 00:30:05.385 --> 00:30:06.791 that or a, 00:30:08.631 --> 00:30:11.120 expression of a better version of a power. 00:30:13.251 --> 00:30:17.991 Is limited by some form. Absolutely. So for example if Hermione aged twice as 00:30:17.991 --> 00:30:23.953 much as the time she went back or something. There's just a cot. Or she loses Sunday. 00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:28.909 She has to, yeah, she is exhausted after using it. Yeah. 00:30:29.889 --> 00:30:33.189 She goes to sleep on a Saturday. She disappears for the entire Sunday and wakes 00:30:33.189 --> 00:30:34.973 up on Monday morning. Yeah. 00:30:35.733 --> 00:30:38.027 She has the same number of hours in a week that everyone else has. 00:30:38.236 --> 00:30:41.469 She's just sorting them out. Yeah. Reallocating them to it. Unfortunately, 00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:43.652 in the Cursed Child, they go all the way back. 00:30:44.429 --> 00:30:47.982 They transfer, what, I think, 20 or 30 years back into the past. 00:30:48.122 --> 00:30:50.359 Yeah. So they're bullshit. 00:30:51.617 --> 00:30:56.579 So you are introducing the concept of time trial which in itself is a such a 00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:02.239 dangerous topic to get involved with it's a massive thing in any story because 00:31:02.239 --> 00:31:04.219 you are because it is the underlying, 00:31:04.844 --> 00:31:11.299 part of any story yeah passage of time from a to b to c i'm actually in one 00:31:11.299 --> 00:31:12.389 of the things i'm writing at the moment, 00:31:13.504 --> 00:31:19.766 the the there's a a moment because i'm dealing with that at the moment so it's in my head that, 00:31:20.491 --> 00:31:23.789 essentially this character is being attacked by three different wizards and 00:31:23.789 --> 00:31:28.369 she divides the timeline into three parts rather than having to deal with all 00:31:28.369 --> 00:31:33.349 three of them at the same part so she's standing in the middle of a fun house, 00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:37.169 and the three of them attack or the three of them get into the fun house at 00:31:37.169 --> 00:31:40.229 the same time but by the time they get they don't realize that they've been 00:31:40.229 -->

00:31:44.269 separated and they all entered the same room roughly around the same time so 00:31:44.269 --> 00:31:47.988 I'm writing the three scenes simultaneously Simultaneously, which, 00:31:48.869 --> 00:31:52.269 I'm quite sure I finished it up last night. Have you gone mad trying to? 00:31:52.849 --> 00:31:59.233 Well, I'm going to go back to smooth it over again because I want the text to flow a bit better. 00:32:00.568 --> 00:32:04.948 But the one that this is an exaggeration 00:32:04.948 --> 00:32:08.807 of her ability with very specific limitations and reasons. Yes. 00:32:09.516 --> 00:32:14.048 That so there is a, so she's not going to do this every time. 00:32:14.485 --> 00:32:18.925 But one of the key statements that I'm making in this is that, 00:32:19.901 --> 00:32:23.250 just as, and this is kind of a reflection of the first fight in the first book, 00:32:23.592 --> 00:32:29.268 and that she engaged in that she suffered from the fact that when that people 00:32:29.268 --> 00:32:31.238 who could elongate dimensions as in, 00:32:32.283 --> 00:32:38.338 a gunshot is fired yeah then all you do is elongate the path a path until that 00:32:38.338 --> 00:32:39.818 bullet just literally falls out of the sky, 00:32:40.842 --> 00:32:44.888 that someone was contracting the distances so that she could be shot at much 00:32:44.888 --> 00:32:49.706 much easier so rather than being you know across a large distance she's actually at point black range, 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.645 in this which is to say forces travel across distances, 00:32:55.309 --> 00:33:00.417 forces also travel across time and all magic ultimately travels across time so, 00:33:00.951 --> 00:33:05.768 you know it's like whether it be casting a spell using your words flashing a 00:33:05.768 --> 00:33:11.218 wand lightning whatever they all travel through the timeline which makes, 00:33:12.138 --> 00:33:20.408 time control so ungodly powerful yeah so it is a so by introducing it especially 00:33:20.408 --> 00:33:23.147 as frivolously as it's introduced Yes. 00:33:24.398 --> 00:33:26.375 Without a thought to it. 00:33:26.566 --> 00:33:30.937 It's not even a case of Hermione is engaging in like special, 00:33:31.618 --> 00:33:36.895 you know, forbidden spells that no one else, you know, it's not like it's just extra classes. 00:33:37.121 --> 00:33:39.389 Yeah. Which you kind of wonder, well. 00:33:42.696 --> 00:33:49.036 It would be even of a benefit if, say, McGonagall had time travelled into the 00:33:49.036 --> 00:33:52.436 future and said, oh, Hermione needs to know this stuff to help. 00:33:52.956 --> 00:33:57.626 And then gives Hermione the time-turner and go, you need to do these classes 00:33:57.626 --> 00:34:00.075 as well. This is the only way you can really do it. 00:34:00.879 --> 00:34:05.136 That at least would serve some purpose other than it's Hermione's character 00:34:05.136 --> 00:34:08.385 because she's such a swat that she loves classes. 00:34:09.996 --> 00:34:14.544 It kind of truncates the purpose it kind of cuts it off midstream there like 00:34:14.921 --> 00:34:21.116 yes is she getting more powerful profoundly more powerful I think it's a solution to. 00:34:23.246 --> 00:34:27.397 The book itself that she takes Harry back in time and they can see themselves 00:34:27.612 --> 00:34:34.375 a few times so they cross their own timeline several times over which in itself is a problem, 00:34:35.401 --> 00:34:41.076 It is a, yeah, it is a profound, see, I wouldn't even call it a plot hole, 00:34:41.076 --> 00:34:42.777 I'd call it just really fucking bad writing. 00:34:43.173 --> 00:34:50.686 That it is a, because it is a plot device hole. Yeah, plot device hole. 00:34:51.506 --> 00:34:57.848 A bit more specific. I suppose a potential fix of that then perhaps could have been, 00:34:58.575 --> 00:35:04.736 had it been established earlier in like before the use of the time or around 00:35:04.736 --> 00:35:06.563 the time, the first use of the time, 00:35:07.326 --> 00:35:10.865 if it was kind of established that you can't change events that have already happened. 00:35:11.643 --> 00:35:14.052 Yeah, make a predestination, sure. Yeah. 00:35:14.906 --> 00:35:18.576 So then it doesn't matter that you go back in time because what has happened 00:35:18.576 --> 00:35:20.496 has always and will always have. 00:35:20.496 --> 00:35:26.086 Yes, it makes it a, not a bootstrap paradox, it makes it a, essentially an information 00:35:26.086 --> 00:35:29.938 game, that you can be in a place where you previously weren't, 00:35:30.449 --> 00:35:31.896 but you're witnessing a thing. 00:35:31.896 --> 00:35:36.186 Like, it's, say that someone doesn't believe you about a certain event. 00:35:37.052 --> 00:35:40.686 I will then take you in time, back to that event, show you what happened, 00:35:40.686 --> 00:35:43.582 so you're seeing it, and go, oh my god, you're right, this person is evil. 00:35:43.703 --> 00:35:48.237 And then, so, they could use it for plot purposes. Yeah. 00:35:48.754 --> 00:35:54.526 But they didn't. it is just yeah well speaking of bootstraps and sticking with time travel plot oh god, 00:35:55.099 --> 00:36:00.246 there's the idea of well in relation to the Terminator movie we'll get the back 00:36:00.246 --> 00:36:04.666 to the future that'll be probably our last time travel thing but time travel 00:36:04.666 --> 00:36:06.726 does cause a lot of kind of it's, 00:36:07.326 --> 00:36:10.086 like I say it's so powerful there's only, 00:36:10.924 --> 00:36:14.026 two time travel movies that make sense, 00:36:15.926 --> 00:36:20.126 that sorry only two time travel movies that that let's say like the spring to 00:36:20.126 --> 00:36:25.716 mind which are which are not predestination which are plastic universe time 00:36:25.716 --> 00:36:29.966 travel that that makes sense and that's Back to the Future and. 00:36:32.336 --> 00:36:32.566 And, 00:36:34.567 --> 00:36:38.035 I've just forgotten it. Oh, Jesus.

I'll remember in a second. Okay. 00:36:39.117 --> 00:36:43.411 Dead air. Dead air. Jesus. I can see the cover right in front of me. 00:36:44.011 --> 00:36:48.309 Okay, describe it to me. Describe it to our listeners. It's a box in a... 00:36:49.365 --> 00:36:54.261 Fuck. It's the name... Can I even see the name of the guy who created it? 00:36:54.261 --> 00:36:58.191 I'll remember in a second. Yeah, it's a time travel box that they... They put in a warehouse. 00:37:00.231 --> 00:37:03.291 And we have talked about it before. That's why now it's killing me that I can't 00:37:03.291 --> 00:37:07.706 remember. And Sean Carruthers is the game, the guy who created it. Yeah. 00:37:08.551 --> 00:37:13.470 It's a very mundane title as well. It is. It's like a single word. Not the box. Yeah. Yeah. 00:37:16.171 --> 00:37:20.821 Well, I'll remember a second. But yeah, those two are the only two which are 00:37:20.821 --> 00:37:23.571 predestination, or say, which are not predestination, which work. 00:37:23.751 --> 00:37:26.201 You have things like 12 Monkeys, which works, but that's predestination. 00:37:26.201 --> 00:37:28.534 Yeah. You have things like Terminator, which is predestination. 00:37:29.234 --> 00:37:39.051 Yeah. And I think, but perhaps, was I seeing perhaps a different or edited or, 00:37:39.721 --> 00:37:43.971 additional director's cut thing where it kind of addresses it? 00:37:44.644 --> 00:37:51.780 It has been mentioned, you know, that Skynet send one Terminator back. Sure. Why not an army? 00:37:53.334 --> 00:37:57.684 Why are they sending, like, an infiltration unit instead of just a bunch of 00:37:57.684 --> 00:38:01.530 Terminators to go kill Sarah Connor in the first movie? 00:38:02.461 --> 00:38:11.342 Well, that is less of a plot hole because it would be a plot hole if it demonstrated 00:38:11.481 --> 00:38:14.831 previously a previous ability and then didn't do it. Yeah. 00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:23.382 The ability to travel in time, like, they don't go into much detail about how they got Rhys back. No. 00:38:23.725 --> 00:38:27.924 That... You don't know if it's a separate facility. I think the later movies 00:38:27.924 --> 00:38:29.974 might have explained an assault on Skynet. 00:38:30.774 --> 00:38:32.814 That's irrelevant. Yeah, it doesn't matter. 00:38:34.152 --> 00:38:36.724 It's encapsulated in that one movie. Yeah. All the information, 00:38:36.724 --> 00:38:41.864 because I think half that is fiction from the other movie. 00:38:41.864 --> 00:38:49.684 So essentially it's like Skynet sent a cyborg covered in living flesh because 00:38:49.684 --> 00:38:53.130 you can't bring technology back through time. 00:38:53.814 --> 00:38:57.252 That's a limitation placed on it. Lovely. It's grand. Yeah, happy days. 00:38:58.098 --> 00:39:01.724 Now, more likely it would work the other way that you can't send living stuff 00:39:01.724 --> 00:39:05.914 through time. You can only send inorganic material because organic material 00:39:05.914 --> 00:39:09.063 will probably rip apart or something in the fabric of space-time, whatever. 00:39:09.423 --> 00:39:14.300 But if, so they had enough power, we'll say, to send one. 00:39:14.985 --> 00:39:19.324 Say if that, is it the same facility? We just don't know. Is it the same facility? 00:39:19.324 --> 00:39:22.752 Did the resistance create their own time travel thing? 00:39:23.257 --> 00:39:27.402 Was there only enough power for one go? You know, they only had enough fuel, 00:39:28.434 --> 00:39:33.048 to send one item or in Reese's case, one person. 00:39:34.029 --> 00:39:41.302 You don't know if Skynet just kept sending Terminators for and over and over. Okay. If they could. 00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:46.281 So the other time travel movie? 00:39:46.827 --> 00:39:50.050 Primer. Primer. Which is fantastic. 00:39:50.375 --> 00:39:54.477 I think it has a lot of things layered in. Not the greatest of stories, 00:39:54.802 --> 00:39:59.178 but a fantastic, fantastic time travel movie. 00:40:01.987 --> 00:40:03.206 The question about... 00:40:05.327 --> 00:40:09.897 So, the reason why I don't think it's a plot hole and doesn't fall into this 00:40:09.897 --> 00:40:12.301 category is because it's a part of the premise. 00:40:15.807 --> 00:40:20.227 And I shall make the assumption that a premise can't have a plot hole because, 00:40:21.067 --> 00:40:23.286 you haven't expanded the plot yet. 00:40:24.524 --> 00:40:27.843 That you have stated the inception, but that's it. 00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:36.156 The Terminator was basically a zombie movie. It was a singular zombie movie. That was it. 00:40:36.382 --> 00:40:39.877 The Terminator slowly degrades over time. 00:40:40.324 --> 00:40:42.634 Similar to what happens with the Terminator in T2. 00:40:43.267 --> 00:40:44.992 That it slowly degrades over time. 00:40:45.896 --> 00:40:52.715 That a singular person, they get that one person sent back in time to help. 00:40:53.768 --> 00:41:00.582 That's all fine that's it's a B-movie yeah and for that like every every part 00:41:00.582 --> 00:41:03.812 of that is just a B-movie it's an incredibly good 00:41:04.232 --> 00:41:08.592 B-movie it's like just try not to think about it no no no you'll enjoy it more 00:41:08.592 --> 00:41:12.232 no no you can think about it and indeed the whole thing about the predestination 00:41:12.552 --> 00:41:14.851 aspect of it is wonderfully thought out that, 00:41:15.701 --> 00:41:21.892 that the the photograph which Rhys has given to which is given he doesn't know 00:41:21.892 --> 00:41:25.639 that At that point, she's already pregnant with his child. Yeah. 00:41:25.994 --> 00:41:28.392 So there is a further... 00:41:28.852 --> 00:41:30.963 And he's dead when that photo was taken. 00:41:31.648 --> 00:41:35.496 But no, no, he wasn't alive yet. Sure, at the same time. Yes. 00:41:36.532 --> 00:41:40.581 That his life ends in the past and starts... It's like Nishrodinger's Reese. 00:41:40.843 --> 00:41:43.594 No, but

actually, he may have already been born by that stage. 00:41:43.890 --> 00:41:47.022 So he is alive. In fact, he could be alive at the other end. 00:41:47.022 --> 00:41:48.522 Yeah, he could be alive at the same time. 00:41:48.777 --> 00:41:54.582 Because it depends on how far into the war that they send it back. 00:41:54.872 --> 00:41:59.383 Because then you could say, you could question all these other aspects of, 00:41:59.575 --> 00:42:05.332 well, when did Skynet develop time travel technology, why did they not send 00:42:05.652 --> 00:42:07.514 them back to just build a bomb? 00:42:08.372 --> 00:42:10.544 Just send a smart one back. 00:42:11.459 --> 00:42:18.492 That then was like, because they needed, maybe it was the fact that why do you want to send one back? 00:42:18.492 --> 00:42:24.442 If you want to go into it, Skynet knew that the one is sent back would be the 00:42:24.442 --> 00:42:26.814 creation point. Yeah. For itself. Mm-hmm. 00:42:27.732 --> 00:42:32.562 It knew its own history. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to question that, 00:42:32.562 --> 00:42:35.916 without sending that Terminator back, it never got created. 00:42:36.212 --> 00:42:41.245 Yeah. I suppose if you had to send a bunch of Terminators back and they were defeated, 00:42:41.921 --> 00:42:45.442 which is reasonable, you know, given American military might and, 00:42:45.442 --> 00:42:48.260 you know, National Guard, you know, if you have a bunch of Terminators, 00:42:48.644 --> 00:42:52.922 it would cause a bigger response and then perhaps Skynet would never have gotten 00:42:52.922 --> 00:42:54.992 created because they all would have been utterly destroyed. 00:42:54.992 --> 00:42:58.733 Yes, that if they sent, if they weren't covert. 00:43:01.012 --> 00:43:04.962 If the American military found this thing, that machine from the future, 00:43:04.962 --> 00:43:08.462 yes, that was on the drawing board at the moment. Scrap all machines. 00:43:08.462 --> 00:43:11.567 Yeah, let's not fucking do this. That'd be fucking terrible. 00:43:11.753 --> 00:43:18.122 So, yeah, so that's a reasonable statement of why to avoid sending somebody back. 00:43:19.092 --> 00:43:25.952 Indeed, talking about other parts of the franchise, the Sarah Connor Chronicles, 00:43:25.952 --> 00:43:31.482 which I know people rail about and talk fondly about because of Lena Headley 00:43:31.482 --> 00:43:33.279 and because of Summer Glau. 00:43:34.467 --> 00:43:38.878 I fucking hate it from the start because it was just it was during the time I've never seen it and, 00:43:40.038 --> 00:43:44.738 in one of them they send a Terminator so far far back in time like 00:43:45.118 --> 00:43:49.378 he then he what a civil warrior or something is it was definitely western he 00:43:49.378 --> 00:43:52.143 then locks himself away basically looks up in the stars and see and basically 00:43:52.479 --> 00:43:56.258 he realizes that he is out of sequence or that the stars don't match I've been 00:43:56.258 --> 00:44:00.358 going to power down for a hundred years and then he walks and puts himself in, 00:44:01.078 --> 00:44:05.215 a walls himself up comes back out looks up I'm going, all right, right, there we are. 00:44:05.476 --> 00:44:08.574 Oh, dear. And heads off. And, you know, so it then becomes a threat. 00:44:09.153 --> 00:44:16.137 So, and you're one from Garbage is also a super advanced Liquid Terminator. 00:44:16.427 --> 00:44:19.678 Spoilers, because it was shit. You're one from Garbage, as in Shirley. 00:44:19.836 --> 00:44:22.778 Shirley, what's her name, yeah? What's her name, Shirley Mick? 00:44:24.270 --> 00:44:27.569 Yeah the singer from the band Garbage, 00:44:28.909 --> 00:44:33.519 she was she was from the future she was great but yeah so Manson Shirley Manson 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:34.937 Shirley Manson that sounds alright, 00:44:35.894 --> 00:44:41.939 comes back to you yeah eventually so yeah so I say that the even again so taking 00:44:41.939 --> 00:44:48.758 it as a what if it is a plot hole yeah I don't think it's a necessarily a bad one, 00:44:49.569 --> 00:44:52.249 or even that it is a a, 00:44:53.269 --> 00:44:55.622 story damaging one because it doesn't affect. 00:44:57.149 --> 00:45:02.698 When when when use time travel as an ignition point or a story yeah, 00:45:03.368 --> 00:45:07.349 you can almost forget about it it's like here's we're assembling our pieces 00:45:07.349 --> 00:45:11.659 yeah to get them together we're using time travel or using super science or 00:45:11.659 --> 00:45:13.474 using magic or we're doing this or, 00:45:14.409 --> 00:45:17.989 once you have made that as part of your part of your your, 00:45:18.992 --> 00:45:24.679 opening and you never use it again like no point in in terminator do they travel 00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:31.012 in time at no point in Terminator there's a it is just they arrive that's it yeah so, 00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:34.676 off we go exactly so you essentially can say that, 00:45:35.285 --> 00:45:40.359 they could have if you can so easily go they could have come from other dimensions 00:45:40.359 --> 00:45:47.117 yeah and I come from space I know I know from the the storytelling in the filmmaking part, 00:45:47.966 --> 00:45:53.569 of things on Terminator is you can understand why not only is the, 00:45:54.129 --> 00:45:58.679 arnold schwarzenegger's terminator you don't show him like it's not shown him 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:02.239 traveling back in time it's not showing that he is a robot, 00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:06.779 because you're not supposed to know that at this point if you went in fresh 00:46:06.779 --> 00:46:09.490 to to the theater 86 i think it was, 00:46:10.013 --> 00:46:14.219 about that yeah and it's arnold schwarzenegger and he's going around he's he's 00:46:14.219 --> 00:46:17.969 all of a sudden he's he's walking around collecting clothes and. 00:46:18.938 --> 00:46:22.270 Kind of boots and motorcycles and I know that was Terminator 2 but, 00:46:23.050 -->

00:46:28.408 yeah you don't know that he's a robot at that stage you haven't he's just Arnie 00:46:28.592 --> 00:46:31.290 yeah he's just Arnie Arnie's a bit stiff yeah and he's, 00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:35.630 you know he gets underway with what he's doing so I can understand from a storytelling 00:46:35.630 --> 00:46:40.920 point of view you can't see the robot being sent back by other robots or machines 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.320 or whatever because he's why not, 00:46:44.104 --> 00:46:49.270 because you aren't supposed to know that he is a robot no but It's just a tension thing. 00:46:49.270 --> 00:46:53.730 For, for, but you said robot's sent by robot. I don't see why not you could, 00:46:53.730 --> 00:46:57.351 why you couldn't say it. No, it doesn't, it doesn't say that until Rhys goes, 00:46:57.821 --> 00:46:59.081 this is what happens. Yeah. 00:46:59.791 --> 00:47:05.062 But he doesn't have to be, you know, the Terminator. You see the robots at the start, don't you not? 00:47:05.864 --> 00:47:09.280 No. Coming in and, and, and attacking the resistance. No, that's Terminator 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:10.460 2. That's Terminator 2. Yeah. 00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:18.360 The only time you see the, uh, is the Terminator in action in the future is 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:22.960 when they fight against the the hunter killers, 00:47:23.844 --> 00:47:29.718 And Reece returns home, the dog starts barking, and he has the picture of Sarah 00:47:29.718 --> 00:47:32.585 Connor. Yeah. And it's a T-800. 00:47:33.658 --> 00:47:39.214 Yeah. Or one of the early, they had rubbery skin. Yes. You can see that a glowing eye. Mm-hmm. 00:47:39.528 --> 00:47:43.638 So you can see that something is wrong about them. But that's. 00:47:45.958 --> 00:47:51.705 After he has identified the Terminator. He's described it to Connor. Yeah. 00:47:51.890 --> 00:47:55.788 And this is after they possibly after they sleep together because then he wakes 00:47:55.788 --> 00:48:01.258 up out of a out of the nightmare and Sarah's there to comfort him so there, 00:48:02.218 --> 00:48:05.908 I don't see the reason why they couldn't have said it but they didn't have to 00:48:05.908 --> 00:48:11.444 say it because as I said it's a zombie movie that it's interesting that the whole the unknown, 00:48:12.458 --> 00:48:18.648 the whole sci-fi aspect to it is almost tacked on that it is and yet it is the 00:48:18.648 --> 00:48:20.018 thing that everyone points to oh it's, 00:48:21.086 --> 00:48:23.558 but it's almost like it got tacked on and then, 00:48:24.686 --> 00:48:28.598 it is fusing in through the entire story you can almost see, 00:48:29.518 --> 00:48:35.068 I know that it was creation of out of a dream that Cameron had but you can almost 00:48:35.068 --> 00:48:42.181 see the the it's a zombie story but the zombie is a robot oh yeah, 00:48:43.162 --> 00:48:48.916 because I remember it was a Solaris around the time there was a few there was a few Harvey Keitel, 00:48:50.002 --> 00:48:51.458 merging with a robot I have, 00:48:52.898 --> 00:48:58.868 a vague impression of it so you have these kind of half you have all these other 00:48:58.868 --> 00:49:04.143 examples of monstrous robots somewhat connected to flesh, 00:49:05.894 --> 00:49:08.750 so you have hence the Terminator but the. 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:15.674 So you can see how the horror aspect of it manifests you don't need the time 00:49:15.674 --> 00:49:20.250 travel aspect yeah it's just this relentless force that is constantly pursuing, 00:49:20.831 --> 00:49:24.254 this woman yeah like it could have been simply you know the story itself could 00:49:24.254 --> 00:49:29.534 have been that it was a modern day creation it was a futuristic modern day creation 00:49:29.534 --> 00:49:33.594 yeah and so time travel wasn't necessary for it so you could and that's indeed, 00:49:34.314 --> 00:49:38.075 you could say from a story creation point of view that, 00:49:38.931 --> 00:49:46.114 it's I came going back to if if you want to do jaws then you shouldn't be focused 00:49:46.114 --> 00:49:47.818 on the focus you shouldn't not be focused on the shark, 00:49:48.741 --> 00:49:52.824 yeah oh well speaking of a quick quick one on jaws it was what jaws forward 00:49:52.824 --> 00:49:55.860 or revenge that that didn't exist that yeah, 00:49:56.876 --> 00:50:03.083 But this is where, and it's so utterly preposterous that you just, 00:50:03.643 --> 00:50:05.914 you don't know how this came to be. 00:50:06.315 --> 00:50:12.843 But it was a case of, the shark, the shark, now, the shark wanted revenge on 00:50:12.843 --> 00:50:19.883 Brody's wife and followed her across to the Caribbean from, what was the name of the town? 00:50:20.243 --> 00:50:22.503 Amity? No, I don't remember. 00:50:24.163 --> 00:50:32.063 Yeah, however. So, yes, the shark somehow knows that she went from mainland 00:50:32.063 --> 00:50:37.103 US to the Caribbean and follows her down there and wants revenge for the previous 00:50:37.103 --> 00:50:38.857 shark being killed. Was that the Michael Caine one? 00:50:39.484 --> 00:50:44.233 I can't remember it that well, but I just... Because I remember him saying that 00:50:44.233 --> 00:50:46.735 it was an absolutely terrible movie that he got paid very well for. 00:50:47.344 --> 00:50:51.313 Well, that's probably it then. But, I mean, a simple fix for that, 00:50:51.940 --> 00:50:57.373 because her son is killed by the shark at the start, is just have the human 00:50:57.373 --> 00:51:01.507 wanting revenge and going hunting the shark, not the shark following the human. 00:51:02.019 --> 00:51:08.206 No, but my point is that the heart of Jaws isn't the shark at all. Yeah. 00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:12.223 Has nothing to do with the shark. It's about a guy coming to terms with his, 00:51:12.223 --> 00:51:16.173 his, his, his, almost his lot in life. Yeah. That he is terrified of the water 00:51:16.173 --> 00:51:20.704 and that he has to overcome fear in order to, to

kind of rise to the challenge. 00:51:21.116 --> 00:51:23.287 That, and that fear is more of the water than the shark. 00:51:24.930 --> 00:51:29.260 If you are, when you have someone say, I want to learn from Jaws, 00:51:29.626 --> 00:51:35.544 and they come out with a script that's all about a fish, then they haven't learned anything from Jaws. 00:51:36.124 --> 00:51:40.004 With Terminator, if you're coming out with saying, I want a time travel movie. Yeah. 00:51:40.816 --> 00:51:45.544 No. It's not a time travel movie. Well, no, but time travel is a nice element 00:51:45.544 --> 00:51:48.442 to it. Yeah. But it's just to get a setup to it. 00:51:49.684 --> 00:51:55.824 But if you're talking about how a... It's a backdrop. it is it is it is part 00:51:55.824 --> 00:51:57.524 of you know you could say it's part of the world building but it's. 00:51:59.644 --> 00:52:04.844 It's it's almost it just explains the origin I guess of the Terminator it explains 00:52:04.844 --> 00:52:07.484 the it explains the the start and the very end, 00:52:08.270 --> 00:52:13.574 yeah if you chopped off both those bits and just had it end with the machine 00:52:13.574 --> 00:52:15.748 crushing the Terminator and Sarah going, 00:52:16.984 --> 00:52:20.494 and then her slowing down and the end and then the credits rolling then that 00:52:20.494 --> 00:52:23.384 would have been fine too it's like the end of a Blade Runner, 00:52:23.727 --> 00:52:27.094 you, as in, you just have them leaving in the, in the elevator and just cut 00:52:27.094 --> 00:52:29.642 it there. Yeah. To some, that's a better movie. 00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:33.965 You don't, you don't see them driving off in the middle of nowhere. 00:52:34.923 --> 00:52:39.915 But the, and the heart of Terminator is a, is the relentlessness of the killer. Yeah. 00:52:40.291 --> 00:52:45.578 The, the, nothing can stop it. Yeah, the, the, the struggle to survive. Yeah. So, 00:52:47.157 --> 00:52:51.558 Well, I was going to touch on Back to the Future, but maybe we'll leave time 00:52:51.558 --> 00:52:54.518 travel because it's just another potential time travel plot. 00:52:54.518 --> 00:52:56.448 You know, just throw it at me so I can bat it away. 00:52:56.848 --> 00:53:02.775 Okay, so it's, because it's a fun comedy, essentially, with time travel. Yeah. 00:53:04.628 --> 00:53:11.746 There's a question of when Marty interferes with his parents' relationship, 00:53:12.518 --> 00:53:14.300 why doesn't he suddenly just disappear? 00:53:14.948 --> 00:53:19.158 And not you know he doesn't disappear he has a chance to kind of get everything 00:53:19.158 --> 00:53:25.646 back on track again and he's watching his older brother yeah his older sister yeah and he starts, 00:53:26.362 --> 00:53:32.614 how how is that a plot hole that's that that's the that's the metaphysics of the story, 00:53:34.019 --> 00:53:39.048 well yeah because when when you think about it if it's a kind of a propagated 00:53:39.428 --> 00:53:42.568 timeline

no we don't have to we don't you have to go there at all. 00:53:42.736 --> 00:53:45.203 Just go, it's how the timeline works. 00:53:46.408 --> 00:53:50.619 You can have good, actually, mostly bad time travel movies, but. 00:53:53.708 --> 00:53:58.745 The fact that, see, I would go the opposite way and say, they shouldn't disappear at all. Right. 00:53:59.412 --> 00:54:02.216 Okay. They are now paradoxes outside the timeline. 00:54:03.087 --> 00:54:09.456 Or on another timeline. Well, yes, the Twin Pines timeline as opposed to Lone Pines, 00:54:10.408 --> 00:54:15.615 no timeline but the so why does the photograph it's a ticking clock yeah, 00:54:16.908 --> 00:54:21.628 it's a plot device yeah that in itself is a plot device I wouldn't so the fact 00:54:21.628 --> 00:54:24.808 it doesn't disappear I don't have a problem at all you know about the whole 00:54:24.808 --> 00:54:30.499 Marty Zero idea Marty Zero yeah no no go ahead so Marty so, 00:54:31.010 --> 00:54:32.879 who disappears at the start of that movie, 00:54:33.506 --> 00:54:35.882 actually who does Marty see, 00:54:36.543 --> 00:54:40.839 get into the Glorian at the end of the movie Is that Marty Zero? 00:54:41.245 --> 00:54:44.238 No. Well, no, I'm going to ask you the question. You're going to give me an 00:54:44.238 --> 00:54:46.760 answer, goddammit. Himself? I don't know. 00:54:48.067 --> 00:54:54.267 He, no, he sees the guy who grew up with the author father, the good-looking 00:54:54.267 --> 00:54:56.657 mother, and the better house with the car. 00:54:57.231 --> 00:55:02.485 Oh, true, yeah. Right? So he... Marty 2.0. Marty 0. 00:55:03.042 --> 00:55:08.837 So you have Marty 1. So the entire plot, you could say, is how he stole some 00:55:08.837 --> 00:55:10.936 other Marty's life. Oh, yeah. I like that. 00:55:12.487 --> 00:55:17.544 So where does the DeLorean at the end go? Um... No idea. Um... 00:55:19.123 --> 00:55:24.314 No idea, yeah. Because it doesn't go back in time, because we never follow the timeline. 00:55:24.874 --> 00:55:28.994 Does Doc bring it forward in time? Does he not say he's going forward 50, 00:55:28.994 --> 00:55:32.106 30 years into the future? Nope. No change at all. 00:55:33.161 --> 00:55:35.338 To which, yeah, which DeLorean? 00:55:36.917 --> 00:55:40.197 No, because Marty comes back. 00:55:40.354 --> 00:55:44.974 Yep. He comes, he arrives back to the Lone Pine Mall. Yeah, so he arrives somewhere 00:55:44.974 --> 00:55:49.096 new for the first time. Yeah, because when he arrives in 1955. 00:55:51.214 --> 00:55:57.432 He destroys one of the trees. So what became... Twin pines. ...has become now the Lone Pine Wall. 00:55:58.163 --> 00:56:02.719 So he's in a totally different world timeline. In a... 00:56:03.634 --> 00:56:06.597 A... A... Revitalized timeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:56:07.108 --> 00:56:12.824 And that DeLorean... What happens? Yeah. It's a spurious go. In a puff of logic. 00:56:14.490 --> 00:56:18.654 Well, there you have it. So that you couldn't... That you might call a plot 00:56:18.654 --> 00:56:20.655 hole. In that, where does Marty Zero go? 00:56:21.319 --> 00:56:24.314 No idea. No idea. But again, it's a fun comedy, though. 00:56:24.334 --> 00:56:28.054 You're not supposed to think about it too hard. No, but it also is a far, 00:56:28.054 --> 00:56:32.627 far better time travel movie than almost every other time travel movie out there. This thing. 00:56:35.698 --> 00:56:40.454 When I watch things like Rick and Marty, or Rick and Morty, which I used to, 00:56:41.114 --> 00:56:46.131 like a lot, and I've kind of fallen out of watching, but when it was at its 00:56:46.415 --> 00:56:49.817 top, at its prime, It was some of the best sci-fi on TV. 00:56:50.647 --> 00:56:54.658 Better than, well, Star Trek, which has just gone down the shitter. 00:56:56.834 --> 00:57:01.824 Dealt with complex ideas. I'll have a Star Trek one as well. 00:57:01.824 --> 00:57:06.575 Awesome. But it deals with complex ideas and dealt with, you know, 00:57:07.133 --> 00:57:11.572 decent, you know, meaty concepts. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:57:12.414 --> 00:57:19.074 And even when they had fights, the fights between the president and Rick, 00:57:20.214 --> 00:57:24.140 there were so many different phases to them that it was. 00:57:25.394 --> 00:57:30.884 I was like, this is fucking this is fucking great it's just awesome and it is 00:57:30.884 --> 00:57:33.814 you can see you can see the intelligence behind the writing and yeah, 00:57:34.814 --> 00:57:41.415 and you can see that it is a clear difference between what is being written 00:57:41.543 --> 00:57:43.454 and what can be written yeah, 00:57:43.954 --> 00:57:47.824 so when people say that there's no good writers anymore say no there's plenty 00:57:47.824 --> 00:57:50.774 there's plenty it's just they're they're cowed, 00:57:51.294 --> 00:57:53.789 into mediocrity yeah, 00:57:54.473 --> 00:57:56.444 I suppose I was like, well, no, 00:57:56.444 --> 00:57:59.863 I was going to go, not unlike the original Declaration of Independence, 00:58:00.658 --> 00:58:03.624 Thomas Jefferson wrote and was ripped apart and changed by committee, 00:58:03.624 --> 00:58:05.372 and the one he wrote was far superior. 00:58:05.993 --> 00:58:08.874 And he used to hang on to his original draft and show people throughout his 00:58:08.874 --> 00:58:10.392 life. Really? Yeah. I didn't know. 00:58:10.508 --> 00:58:13.364 He's like, this is what I wrote, and apparently it was, like, 00:58:13.364 --> 00:58:15.558 infinitely superior than the one they actually went with. 00:58:16.754 --> 00:58:19.414 Yeah. Writing by committee never. I must look that up. Well, 00:58:19.734 --> 00:58:23.247 yeah, I guess. No, the Star Trek one was The Wrath of Khan. 00:58:23.971 --> 00:58:29.506 Okay. You know, the, the, the one time, uh, I think Khan came from the original 00:58:29.901 --> 00:58:34.748 series, the original series. I think the episode was called Space Seed. 00:58:35.432 -->

00:58:39.490 Sounds right. Uh, so he was a, he was a one and done. Yeah. 00:58:40.047 --> 00:58:44.304 You know, would have gone into obscurity had it not been for Wrath of Khan, 00:58:44.304 --> 00:58:47.400 where he became one of the great, you know, movie villains. Yeah. 00:58:48.353 --> 00:58:54.704 But there is a moment where he meets, I think it was very early on, where he meets Chekhov. 00:58:54.878 --> 00:58:58.494 Right. And he says, I never forget a face, Mr. Chekhov. 00:58:59.005 --> 00:59:04.013 And Chekhov wasn't in that. Chekhov wasn't on the Enterprise from the original. 00:59:04.013 --> 00:59:08.466 Like, they're referencing this character. He's the same character. Yeah. 00:59:08.890 --> 00:59:11.913 He wasn't on the Enterprise at the same time Chekhov was on the Enterprise. 00:59:11.913 --> 00:59:14.962 I heard. I heard. Yeah. Yes. You know. 00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:19.893 Who knows? You know, there's... No, no. I think that is the thing is that is 00:59:19.893 --> 00:59:24.633 a legitimate plot hole that he now you could say that he met him off screen 00:59:24.633 --> 00:59:26.949 but I I honestly can't remember, 00:59:27.605 --> 00:59:32.473 if Walter Connick had actually joined the cast no not until season 2 so then 00:59:32.813 --> 00:59:35.493 yeah so you could say oh no of course he's he's. 00:59:38.453 --> 00:59:46.366 Door is open and we're being invited by a little dog. By a little dog. 00:59:47.903 --> 00:59:51.618 So that's fair enough. I guess we'll just keep an eye on the little dog that 00:59:51.618 --> 00:59:55.128 has just entered the studio. She has it, is she? Yeah. 00:59:57.248 --> 01:00:04.036 You could try and hang a lantern on it and say that that he was on the crew. Yeah. 01:00:04.645 --> 01:00:07.558 One of the lower ranks. that he hadn't got promoted. There was, 01:00:07.558 --> 01:00:10.062 what, 400 people on that ship at one time. 01:00:10.288 --> 01:00:13.108 He wasn't part of the deck crew. And Khan could have gone immediately through 01:00:13.108 --> 01:00:16.648 the entire roster on the ship and go, I'm going to remember everybody. 01:00:17.228 --> 01:00:20.468 Or he just happened to meet him in the hallways and byways. 01:00:21.103 --> 01:00:25.172 But he may not directly have attached that to the Enterprise. So, yeah, absolutely. 01:00:25.788 --> 01:00:31.718 A questionable plot hole, but one where it is, but you can understand, 01:00:31.718 --> 01:00:35.342 even if it was intentionally put in, going, we know that this didn't happen. 01:00:35.615 --> 01:00:39.958 Let's throw it in anyway the amount of people who because it wasn't a major 01:00:39.958 --> 01:00:48.060 deal at that point as in Star Trek was not as wowed it was there was conventions, they were small, 01:00:49.468 --> 01:00:55.378 that those movies weren't a massive money spinner it would take the kind of 01:00:55.378 --> 01:01:01.799 move up into even into TNG those years where it was like absolutely kicker. 01:01:03.866 --> 01:01:11.338 So I can understand and intentionally adding that in as a known plot hole? 01:01:11.338 --> 01:01:14.574 That's another thing that we have yet to get into, the idea of, 01:01:15.735 --> 01:01:20.428 do you intentionally put in plot holes? Or if you can't get around where you 01:01:20.428 --> 01:01:23.370 are? Yeah, well, if plot holes are kind of, you know, 01:01:24.565 --> 01:01:29.810 inconsistencies in either your established lore, your established story, 01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:31.371 established power sets. 01:01:31.934 --> 01:01:37.013 You know, if that's what plot holes are, like, I think they're generally considered to be a negative. 01:01:37.484 --> 01:01:41.270 Yes. That you don't want. You don't want a reader or you don't want an audience 01:01:41.270 --> 01:01:45.011 member looking at something and going, that, what? That doesn't make sense to me. 01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:50.860 You never set this up. And, you know, it's a huge, you know, 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.180 I mean, it says it all there when it's a plot hole. 01:01:54.660 --> 01:01:59.920 It's like I'm on this track and there's a gap I don't know how I get from this 01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:06.679 side to the far side yes but I would say that almost in defense of, 01:02:08.140 --> 01:02:11.310 other holes yeah that that. 01:02:14.002 --> 01:02:18.141 A story isn't a solid block of cheese it's Swiss cheese sure, 01:02:18.801 --> 01:02:22.960 so you're not gonna be able to show everything to everybody at all times exactly 01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:26.180 you're not gonna be able to fully explain everything as we talked about the 01:02:26.180 --> 01:02:30.637 idea of you're going you are going to sacrifice some exposition yeah, 01:02:31.270 --> 01:02:36.001 for expediency expediency yeah yeah so I would almost say that, 01:02:36.870 --> 01:02:38.020 there's some things that you 01:02:38.020 --> 01:02:41.166 drive some plot holes you drive straight over and go fuck it I don't care, 01:02:42.133 --> 01:02:47.080 and if you are if there is a momentum to the story if you're if you're a reader 01:02:47.080 --> 01:02:51.180 or audience has caught up with it or is caught up with it yeah then, 01:02:52.141 --> 01:02:57.360 they kind of don't care That's where I think I can kind of going back to our 01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:02.100 one of our first talking points Indiana Jones it doesn't matter that he has 01:03:02.100 --> 01:03:03.535 no impact on the story. No. 01:03:04.202 --> 01:03:07.586 Because you're in it with him. Exactly. Yeah. You're caught up with Will. 01:03:08.780 --> 01:03:11.718 You're traveling along with this wonderfully epic story. 01:03:12.857 --> 01:03:18.490 Same with you know same with Last Crusade that he's there to rescue his father, 01:03:19.198 --> 01:03:20.417 and also do some figuring out as well. 01:03:20.551 --> 01:03:22.878 Yeah. And he has to figure out to find the father. 01:03:24.171 --> 01:03:29.146 There is a, the purpose is its own reward. Yeah.

01:03:29.749 --> 01:03:37.227 So while I'm trying to actually think of a plot hole that I went, yeah, I'm okay with it. 01:03:37.875 --> 01:03:46.054 I can't think of any, so I'm setting up accepting something that I may not, in fact, agree with. 01:03:46.310 --> 01:03:53.320 Because of course there are like certain plot holes like in in literature where, 01:03:53.972 --> 01:03:58.367 a subplot could be abandoned without ever being resolved yes, 01:03:59.107 --> 01:04:03.807 and if that is the case like you know clearly you you want to rethink your subplot 01:04:03.807 --> 01:04:07.737 you want to either tie it off in a satisfactory manner or delete it altogether 01:04:08.068 --> 01:04:13.433 yes or change things that you don't have hanging subplots that like I think when, 01:04:14.734 --> 01:04:20.443 for Game of Thrones for example when I think it was the house of the when. 01:04:21.975 --> 01:04:29.347 Daenerys is talking to the wizards, you know, the, the, is it the house of the undying? 01:04:30.035 --> 01:04:35.695 Yes. Yeah. And then there's some lady with, uh. Lacry mask, which, 01:04:35.695 --> 01:04:39.386 uh, I'm going to remember her name. Quaithe. 01:04:39.984 --> 01:04:41.662 Wait. And what happens? 01:04:42.318 --> 01:04:45.575 Nothing. But then she, she, she, she could be Sierra Seastar. 01:04:45.575 --> 01:04:51.275 She could be, as in, she could be, would share Seastar is the sister, 01:04:51.795 --> 01:04:57.068 stepsister to both Bloodraven and the, I think it was Blittersteel. 01:04:57.793 --> 01:05:00.985 But that might be sorted out in the Winds of Winter, maybe. I don't know. 01:05:00.985 --> 01:05:03.835 No, no, no. Oh, no. She's going to be in the Winds of Winter, 01:05:03.835 --> 01:05:05.195 or she would return. Absolutely. 01:05:05.775 --> 01:05:07.418 She's appeared many, many times. 01:05:08.855 --> 01:05:13.916 In the dreams that Queda has sent her, she said things like the glass candles are burning. 01:05:14.375 --> 01:05:21.768 Uh there's gino who you are there there the the the words of quake are so important 01:05:21.937 --> 01:05:26.025 yeah i were completely ignored by by dal and dave yeah it's like she was written 01:05:26.025 --> 01:05:28.721 into the show and then just abandoned, 01:05:29.442 --> 01:05:34.535 yes yeah pretty much and and and that maybe they didn't know which thoughts 01:05:34.535 --> 01:05:40.018 they were going to follow at that stage maybe well i think that that it is a case that they, 01:05:40.674 --> 01:05:45.133 they well as they have proved to themselves that they're not very good at what they do. 01:05:46.215 --> 01:05:51.003 They have had a few examples of being good here and okay there. 01:05:51.310 --> 01:05:57.735 I was looking forward to Lovecraft Country and it turned out to be really, really fucking awful. 01:05:59.251 --> 01:06:00.063 It is a, 01:06:01.284 --> 01:06:06.235 Game of Thrones is a good example of lots and lots of buttholes because they 01:06:06.235 --> 01:06:10.403 just ditched so much good stuff. And stuff that. 01:06:12.485 --> 01:06:17.652 If they had taken the extra few seasons, it could have been absolutely fantastic. Yeah. 01:06:18.151 --> 01:06:23.605 And that is a problem, though, when you're trying to make an adaptation of a 01:06:23.605 --> 01:06:26.057 book or a series of books. 01:06:26.271 --> 01:06:32.925 You know, the game, the Song of Ice and Fire are kind of so widespread and there's 01:06:32.925 --> 01:06:38.351 so much material within each of the books and then as the books are collectively, 01:06:38.972 --> 01:06:43.265 to make a TV show you're going to have to start ruthlessly kind of hacking things 01:06:43.605 --> 01:06:47.665 off in order to give us some sort of through line that an audience member watching 01:06:47.665 --> 01:06:50.125 for an hour every week might be able to follow. 01:06:50.165 --> 01:06:59.417 I would tend to disagree because the first three seasons they they, 01:07:00.246 --> 01:07:05.028 They started to spin their plates. They built, I think it was referred to as 01:07:05.028 --> 01:07:11.178 the American football method, where they, where, you know, imagine you're drawing 01:07:11.178 --> 01:07:13.433 American football from left to right. 01:07:14.589 --> 01:07:18.678 It gets quickly expanded out, and then you hit a midpoint, and then at the midpoint, 01:07:18.678 --> 01:07:19.738 you should collapse back down. 01:07:20.005 --> 01:07:23.563 So it expands, and rather than a singular line, it expands out, 01:07:24.248 --> 01:07:25.188 and then comes back down again. 01:07:25.775 --> 01:07:30.728 The problem that they encountered was and you could say that Martin's encounters 01:07:30.728 --> 01:07:36.278 as well that they got to the midpoint and they couldn't pare it down yeah it 01:07:36.278 --> 01:07:39.300 just kept got out of control then yeah so. 01:07:40.568 --> 01:07:44.568 And because they were adapting something that they arguably I think, 01:07:45.648 --> 01:07:50.266 that the show suffered from Martin Martin's belief that he could have the two, 01:07:50.834 --> 01:07:58.428 books of Winds of Winter and Dreams of Spring the last two books done by the 01:07:58.428 --> 01:08:00.450 end of the seven years. Oh, yeah. 01:08:01.141 --> 01:08:06.438 Because it was what, Dance came out either the year before or the year after 01:08:06.438 --> 01:08:08.193 the Game of Thrones started. 01:08:08.750 --> 01:08:13.748 So they had this vast amount of material that if Dan and Dave had went, 01:08:13.748 --> 01:08:17.655 right, okay, let's take this vast amount of material and turn it into ten seasons. 01:08:18.172 --> 01:08:22.638 They had the entire thing laid out. Indeed, they had, they had in this city, 01:08:22.638 --> 01:08:26.885 in Dublin, they had a meeting with George R. R. Martin who took them through 01:08:27.083 --> 01:08:30.716 what was going to happen in the last two books. So they could have went, okay, 01:08:33.531 --> 01:08:42.039 Let us

find the midpoint, let's find even 10 small arcs across that. 01:08:42.712 --> 01:08:49.288 Ask for between 10 and 12 episodes and then build it across time. 01:08:49.784 --> 01:08:53.585 They could have done that. Instead of a see how it goes at the end, yeah. Yeah. 01:08:57.054 --> 01:09:00.798 The mic drop moments they had of Daenerys surviving the fire. 01:09:00.798 --> 01:09:04.275 Sure. And that's end of book one. Yeah. 01:09:04.937 --> 01:09:10.858 But maybe put it halfway through book two, maybe put it halfway through season two. Yeah. 01:09:12.104 --> 01:09:15.865 Allow the threats to grow, allow the people to expand. 01:09:17.138 --> 01:09:21.378 I think they suffer from the fact that season one was so focused on the murder 01:09:21.378 --> 01:09:24.798 mystery of John Aaron, which was, you know, Game of Thrones. 01:09:26.116 --> 01:09:30.458 If they had allowed the other things to, because they know what things are going to happen. 01:09:31.046 --> 01:09:33.218 They know all those stuff is going to come in from this, this, 01:09:33.218 --> 01:09:39.988 this place. So have them introduced either through other means or like have 01:09:39.988 --> 01:09:41.808 Oberon, Oberon Martell. 01:09:41.808 --> 01:09:45.598 Oberon Martell, I thought is one of the, one of the best characters in that 01:09:45.598 --> 01:09:51.278 series and was completely misused by, arguably by Martin as well, 01:09:51.598 --> 01:09:53.368 that he goes everywhere. 01:09:53.571 --> 01:10:02.158 He, the, the, the, his daughters are, are that he had with women all around the world. Yeah. 01:10:03.838 --> 01:10:04.886 All you have to do is track, 01:10:06.147 --> 01:10:11.099 This is a Elysian princess. This is a girl he had with a scepter. 01:10:11.290 --> 01:10:14.047 This is when he was off fighting with the Insullied. 01:10:14.245 --> 01:10:16.627 This is when he went all the way to... All the sand snakes. 01:10:17.167 --> 01:10:21.188 ...to Shia Under the Shadow. He has gone all over the world. 01:10:21.513 --> 01:10:27.673 And even if you took a fragment of time to say, where's Oberyn now? Oh, Oberyn. 01:10:27.777 --> 01:10:31.087 And then you do a little info dump about a character you're going to see in 01:10:31.487 --> 01:10:32.676 two seasons' time. Yeah. 01:10:32.961 --> 01:10:36.507 Where's he? Oh, he's over in this. I heard about this girl with dragons that's 01:10:36.507 --> 01:10:40.897 never going to happen and so you can you can see how conversations have laid 01:10:40.897 --> 01:10:43.988 the groundwork exactly that you can and you can, 01:10:44.627 --> 01:10:50.456 give the wonder and awe of the loss of Valyria of the you could talk about how, 01:10:50.908 --> 01:10:55.087 oh this war happened oh I heard the second sons were involved second sons don't 01:10:55.087 --> 01:10:59.347 get involved in anything that doesn't involve doesn't involve the the the, 01:11:00.147 --> 01:11:05.427 what's not the not the Targaryens the Peter Steele's forces. 01:11:06.467 --> 01:11:12.547 But you you establish the lore of a thing through other fights through other, 01:11:13.551 --> 01:11:18.767 so could they have done a 10 season of that yes but they would have been sitting 01:11:18.767 --> 01:11:24.149 right now at the end of 10 seasons going where the fuck's the next two bucks George so, 01:11:24.987 --> 01:11:29.427 they were ultimately screwed by it but they could still have built a far far 01:11:29.427 --> 01:11:33.917 better show with a far far better ending because then they go okay Which would 01:11:33.917 --> 01:11:37.309 have been immortalized for all time as... 01:11:38.149 --> 01:11:41.318 One of the greatest TV shows that has ever existed. 01:11:41.551 --> 01:11:44.136 Yeah. Had they just held a line 01:11:44.264 --> 01:11:48.037 a little bit longer or just decided to do things a little bit different. 01:11:48.298 --> 01:11:52.089 Because, you know, I know we're talking about plot holes and we're probably 01:11:52.089 --> 01:11:57.110 going to wrap up shortly, but plot holes come in many kind of varieties. 01:11:57.464 --> 01:12:00.609 We were talking about, you know, abandoned subplots, you know, 01:12:00.609 --> 01:12:04.586 just inconsistency with the story, inconsistency with powers, 01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:07.829 inconsistency with characters is another one. 01:12:07.829 --> 01:12:12.583 And as you were speaking about Game of Thrones there, or the TV show Game of Thrones, 01:12:13.453 --> 01:12:17.941 One of the great character inconsistencies, I think, is Jaime Lannister's character. 01:12:19.276 --> 01:12:24.784 He starts off as this arrogant best swordsman in the world, or in Westeros. 01:12:25.098 --> 01:12:28.926 He likes a little bit of incest and pushing kids out windows. 01:12:28.926 --> 01:12:32.191 He's kind of not the greatest person ever. 01:12:32.498 --> 01:12:36.154 You know, he has a lot of flaws, a lot of arrogance, a lot of, 01:12:36.281 --> 01:12:39.835 you know, he's not liked. He's not a likable character. 01:12:40.550 --> 01:12:45.566 However, he then starts kind of going through everything he suffers through 01:12:45.566 --> 01:12:50.421 after losing the battle and then being captured, you know, losing his hand. 01:12:51.766 --> 01:12:56.786 He starts growing. His arc starts kind of developing in a particular way. 01:12:56.786 --> 01:13:02.826 He actually does, you know, it turns out when he's talking to Brienne that he 01:13:02.826 --> 01:13:07.806 did kill the Mad King for honorable reasons because the Mad King was going to kill everybody. 01:13:08.346 --> 01:13:12.416 You know and this this bad reputation he had was probably less deserved but 01:13:12.416 --> 01:13:16.926 it was probably the cause of all his spikiness against everybody because everybody 01:13:16.926 --> 01:13:18.125 hated him he hated him back, 01:13:18.698 --> 01:13:22.976 but that started changing through everything he was suffering and then you know 01:13:22.976 --> 01:13:25.531 he's he's spending time with brianne he's kind of, 01:13:26.202 --> 01:13:29.656 you know he sacrificed or not sacrifices but he puts himself in danger to save 01:13:29.656 --> 01:13:36.046 her from the bear and all all of that and in traveling with her kind of learns to be a better man, 01:13:36.806 --> 01:13:39.151 by her example of being a better person. 01:13:39.639 --> 01:13:44.266 You know, so you have all that and he's, he's, he then goes to fight for. 01:13:45.726 --> 01:13:50.256 He goes up north to fight against the White Walkers because he feels like that's 01:13:50.256 --> 01:13:52.557 the right thing to do and this is Jaime Lannister. 01:13:53.138 --> 01:13:56.510 You know, Jaime Lannister from the first episode isn't this guy. 01:13:56.661 --> 01:13:58.886 Yes sir. It is and it isn't. No, no, no. 01:13:59.606 --> 01:14:05.930 He's gone through. I can understand the, the, the drivers that you're going to, get to. Yeah. 01:14:06.081 --> 01:14:10.545 But no, that's all the way up to that point, he is the same character. Sure. 01:14:11.892 --> 01:14:19.724 But his, he seems to be on one particular trajectory and then he just goes to Cersei. 01:14:21.029 --> 01:14:25.079 It's like he, all that kind of development is forgotten and he just, 01:14:25.989 --> 01:14:30.509 his actions don't affect the, you know, nothing he does in that episode affects 01:14:30.509 --> 01:14:34.046 anything other than he's together with Cersei when they die. 01:14:34.245 --> 01:14:36.061 Yeah. And it's like, okay. 01:14:36.311 --> 01:14:39.393 It just feels like an inconsistency of his character. It's worse than that. 01:14:39.632 --> 01:14:44.389 Because at one point he says I don't care about people yeah which why the fuck 01:14:44.389 --> 01:14:49.733 did he kill the kill the mad king forked to save people he didn't know yeah 01:14:50.029 --> 01:14:52.955 that's exactly what he was he was the, 01:14:53.848 --> 01:15:03.389 it is a a an example of a wonderful piece of narrative told in a unexpected 01:15:03.389 --> 01:15:08.816 way um and the the showrunners utterly destroyed him yeah, 01:15:09.789 --> 01:15:12.002 utterly he was done so badly yeah, 01:15:13.109 --> 01:15:16.829 he was done bad that is a jumping off point which I want to talk about in our 01:15:16.829 --> 01:15:24.907 next episode so this is where we should we will hopefully have either plugged or filled in or got some, 01:15:25.789 --> 01:15:30.769 very hot thermican to cover over all those plot holes in the road and, 01:15:31.908 --> 01:15:36.029 I guess we shall just wrap it up there and Alan, 01:15:38.089 --> 01:15:39.729 Keep watching the skies!