บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Moonlight: Soft Touches, Hard Masculinity, and Queer Awakenings

communicate, tell someone what you want, it's better. 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:11.840 And then maybe we don't have all these billies running around thinking they're amazing. 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:16.160 Although he might just think he's amazing anyway and be like, those bitches are liars. 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:30.800 If you're going to um fake it, because we have such terrible sex education in this country, people are learning it from porn. 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:31.360 Yep. 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.399 And then mainstream media, which is what we make. 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:46.480 If we show every sexual encounter that we're saying is successful includes both people orgasming, that's going to send the message that this is what is normal and what happens with everyone. 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:52.240 And then I remember watching movies and being like, oh, okay, so that's what everybody's doing. 00:04:52.480 --> 00:05:12.720 And I mean, that's why I think there's also a huge percentage of Gen Zers who are saying that they're much more into choking, but they don't have the knowledge how to do it safely or perform it safely, but they're really into choking because they keep seeing it in media, they see it in porn, and it seems like a sexy thing to do. 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:21.439 It can be a sexy thing to do if done safely, but I think that this just because people are watching porn, they think that's what's supposed to happen. 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:35.519 I was in a rehearsal the other day for a simulated sex scene between two men, and one of the men was like, I've had sex before, like I know what I'm doing here, and I'm like, I'm sure you do. 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:37.360 This is not sex though. 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:38.720 This is a different thing. 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:40.319 This is gymnastics. 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.600 Like, this is this is kabuki theater. 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:48.079 Yeah, this is an unrelated skill, but that's great. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.920 I'm glad you know what you're doing in your own personal private life. 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:59.920 Intimacy coordination or performing intimacy in film is knowing where the clitoris is and pretending it's somewhere else. 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:05.839 You need to know the anatomy and know how the body works in space and then know how to fake that. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.160 Or in his case, like where the peace bat is. 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:09.360 Yes, exactly. 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:10.240 The choking. 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.720 Because we see it so much in media, boys feel like that's what girls are expecting. 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.639 Girls feel like that's what they're supposed to be game to do. 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:24.480 And so then so many people end up doing something that neither of them actually enjoy or know how to do or want to do. 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.319 Since we're on the topic, aerial. 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:27.040 Yeah. 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:32.319 Because we actually do this in our work because we do fake chokes that don't hurt the person. 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:37.439 What is a safe way to choke someone if you're wanting to do it in a sexual situation? 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:39.360 Ooh, okay. 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.439 Well, first you should talk it over first. 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:42.319 That's number one. 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.600 Communicate is communicate ahead of time. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:47.600 Make sure you both want that. 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.399 Number two, there's a few different ways to choke someone. 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:58.240 So when you choke, quote, choke someone, it doesn't mean that they can't breathe necessarily. 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:07.920 It can sometimes just be a hand at the throat lightly holding your neck in place more so than a strangle hold. 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.959 If you want to go for a strangle hold, you just have to be careful of the trachea. 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.519 And you have to make sure you're not putting your thumb directly over the artery. 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.240 You can do really severe damage. 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:25.680 Be aware of your partner and create a safe word without the ability to speak. 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:34.800 So let's say maybe it's a tap of the hand, like two taps is a red, because sometimes when you are being choked, you lose the ability to speak. 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:43.680 And your partner, whoever's the dominant figure or aggressive figure in the situation, should definitely be really looking out for those cues. 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:55.199 Yeah, respiratory play is a very controversial topic in the Kenken BDSM community because it is so high risk, even if you're just doing a choking with the hands. 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.079 Oh, this was specific to hands, by the way. 00:07:58.319 --> 00:07:59.839 There's other ways to do this. 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.480 There's other ways to we're just gonna talk hands. 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:13.759 One thing I always tell actors when we're doing a stage choke, even this will give you a bit of a head high, and you might start to feel a little dizzy if you're the one being choked. 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.279 I would say as soon as you're starting to feel that, have the person stop. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:23.279 Because after that, it's really hard to determine where the danger zone is because it's almost like an avocado. 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:28.480 It happens so fast that we get to that turning point, or it can be so fast. 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:40.399 Honestly, a much safer version of this is honestly putting your hand and cupping it over the mouth, and you can even squeeze the nostrils at the same time if you want to do respiratory play. 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:45.519 And it's much safer because you're not putting pressure on vital organs. 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.639 Your pressure points are over here near your collarbone.

00:08:48.879 --> 00:09:02.000 If you just put your hand over their mouth, they will still experience that same head rush, that same sort of stranglehold feeling without actually potentially damaging your partner in a significant way. 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:08.399 Quick clarification fakers choking and breath play carry serious risks, even when consensual. 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:14.159 Safe words and communication are important, but they don't eliminate the possibility of serious injury. 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.519 Please do your research, know the risks, and play responsibly. 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:19.039 Now back to the show. 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:28.480 And today, in honor of its 10th anniversary and theatrical re-release in 4K, we are covering Moonlight. 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:44.960 Moonlight was released in 2016, written and directed by Barry Jenkins, based on the unproduced play in Moonlight Black Boys Look Blue by the 2013 MacArthur Fellows Program honoree Terrell Alvin McCraney. 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:49.360 It was nominated for eight and won three Academy Awards. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:58.159 It was the first film focused on LGBT plus themes, and the first film featuring an all-black cast to win the Academy Award for Best Picture. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:10.080 Moonlight tells the story of Chirone, a black queer man in Miami who struggles with his identity and sexuality at pivotal moments when he's a child, a teenager, and a young adult. 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:11.039 Ariel. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.600 What's your experience with Moonlight? 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:15.200 That'd be nothing, Morgan. 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:16.480 No experience at all. 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:22.720 Oh my god, what I have never seen this movie. 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:24.240 I know nothing about it. 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.519 I honestly have just been waiting for us to go over it. 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.879 There have been quite a few opportunities where I've been like, should I watch it? 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:32.799 I should finally watch this movie. 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.039 It's been on my list forever. 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.840 But I was like, no, we're gonna go over it in the podcast. 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:39.360 I'm not gonna watch it. 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.440 Honestly, so amazing. 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.360 I'm jealous that you get to watch this for the first time right now. 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.519 I've written some context, but what's your experience? 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:50.320 Oh shit. 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:50.960 Great question. 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:51.919 My experience. 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:53.600 I saw it when it came out. 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:59.600 This was a very pivotal movie for me, similar to Brokeback Mountain. 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:04.879 And I saw this, and as I was watching it, I was like, how did they get away with making this movie? 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:05.519 Ooh. 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:07.679 I thought it was so beautifully done. 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:14.480 I loved the way it was depicting queer male romance and sexuality. 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:16.960 I thought the film was beautifully shot. 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:18.879 The performances were incredible. 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:30.799 And it felt kind of like the beginning of this period in Hollywood where we suddenly had incredible representation of these groups who previously hadn't had that representation. 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.440 And it's really lovely revisiting it. 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.480 I actually watched La Bola Negra on Sunday. 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:37.840 I hear it's amazing. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:38.879 It's amazing. 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:52.639 It's wild watching that and then watching this because I feel like La Bola Negra is gonna be like another pivotal gay movie that is gonna be like one of these like touch points in cinema. 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:53.679 Context. 00:11:53.840 --> 00:12:01.360 It's the early 2000s in Liberty City, a poverty-stricken neighborhood where masculinity is rigid and aggressive. 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:12.480 Local boys bully an 11-year-old Chiron known as Little for being small and queer, except for Kevin, who encourages Chirone to stand up for himself by play wrestling him. 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.399 Now, Chirone is 17. 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:20.639 While he avoids bullies, he runs into Kevin, who brags about getting caught having sex with a girl at school. 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:23.840 He also gives Chirone a new nickname, Black. 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.000 That night, Chirone fantasizes about Kevin and the girl's encounter. 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.159 We start with Shirone in bed. 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:39.440 We're gonna see Ashton Sanders as Chiron, Darrell Jerome as Kevin age 16, and Irvine Moncion as Samantha. 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:45.440 For those following along, time code is gonna be 4227 to 4327. 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:47.759 And as always, that's gonna be in the show notes. 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:51.519 May I make the smallest tangent happen? 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:52.000 Yeah. 00:12:52.559 --> 00:13:08.240 The moment you said Liberty City, my brain like went on a whole vibe because back in the 2000s, there was Grand Theft Auto 5, there was this radio station called Chatterbox. 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:14.799 It used to be like a comedy radio station in the video game that I used to listen to all the time. 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:25.679 And it had absolutely ludicrous ads like, come to Liberty City! Like, oh my god, no way! It made me crack up so hard. 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:27.039 So funny. 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.360 That is neither here nor there. 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:31.360 Let's watch Moonlight. 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:31.840 Okay. 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:36.399 We have a handheld video going through the house. 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.320 Shirone's shoulder and very yellow lighting.

00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.960 As he walks outside, we hear the sounds of the ocean as well as moans. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.399 He walks through the backyard. 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.639 He sees his friend Kevin from behind. 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:58.960 It looks like he is fully wearing his boxers as he simulates penetrative sex from behind with Samantha. 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.120 Samantha's face is completely obscured. 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.159 She's lifting away, and it's getting a little more intensive. 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:09.440 The moans get a little more a little louder, and we've woken up from a nightmare. 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:10.960 Any initial thoughts? 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:12.799 It's a dream sequence. 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:19.440 So it doesn't bother me as much that he is fully wearing boxers while simulating sex. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:28.480 Granted, you could have sex when you have a penis while the boxers are completely on if it's, you know, through the hole in the front. 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:30.240 I wonder if that has a name, by the way. 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:31.840 I just call it the escape hatch. 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.720 I don't think that's the Is that the name? 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:36.000 No, it's not. 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:37.759 That's just what I call it. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:44.720 What is the name of the hole in the front of the boxer brief? 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.120 A fly or a fly hole. 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.080 That's not as fun. 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:49.360 I think escape hatch is better. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:50.399 Escape hatch. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:51.360 That's hilarious. 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:56.080 My mom said that to me once because I used to get my brother's hand-me-downs and I was really little. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.200 I didn't understand why I couldn't also have his underwear. 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:05.840 And my mom was like, well, because boys underwear has the escape hatch, which I think she was just like, I don't know what to call it. 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:09.200 But then for years I thought that's what it was called. 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.759 And then I said it casually in high school to some friends, and they were like, What? 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:20.159 If you're just looking at the sheer definition of it, I mean, yes, it is an escape hatch. 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:21.279 That is what it's doing. 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:22.399 That's given it. 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:24.480 Doesn't that feel so much cooler? 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.399 Like your penis is an astronaut than a fly hole. 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.480 Than a fly hole, which seems like you're going like ice fishing or something. 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:33.039 Right. 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:43.200 Also, as a small side note, I don't know if I've ever given this story, but I once had an actor call a foam barrier a member defender, and it was like basically saying. 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:46.559 Oh, I love that. 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:48.000 It's so much more epic. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:49.039 What an epic name. 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:50.159 Member Defender. 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:51.120 I'm gonna steal that. 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:52.320 Yes, I think you should. 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:54.000 Anyway, back to Moonlight. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:57.120 Yeah, I think it would normally bother me that we can see his boxers. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:04.399 You can have sex with it on, but I don't believe it's a common practice when you can pull it down and be less constricted. 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:08.960 But beyond that, I think that the physical motion made sense. 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:14.399 In context, like he seemed intrigued and upset watching this. 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.360 Kevin seemed so at ease with his friend just behind him. 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.320 It definitely was wild line moans. 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:24.799 They didn't quite match the action. 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:26.720 Let's go to the next scene. 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:27.120 Okay. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.480 Context for scene number two. 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:38.799 After spending most of the night on the subway to avoid his mother, who's struggling with addiction, Chiron heads to the beach for further refuge. 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.279 Suddenly he hears a familiar voice. 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.360 It's Kevin, who's surprised to find Shirone at his smoking spot. 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:50.080 Sharing his blunt with Shirone turns into sharing something much deeper. 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.399 Ooh, his penis? 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:56.159 You'll see, you'll see. 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:03.759 And again, the actors we're gonna see in this scene are Ashton Sanders as Shirone and Jarell Jerome as Kevin, age 16. 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.839 So we are at 5336 to 5552. 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.880 They're sitting next to each other outside, maybe by the ocean. 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:19.200 Body language is closed off, but also slightly directed at one another. 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.079 They're like playfully slapping each other's arms. 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.759 He's putting his arm over his shoulders. 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.200 Oh, are they gonna kiss? 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:32.000 Oh! Oh! We have a thumb gently touching his face. 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:33.759 Oh my god, he's leaning in. 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.240 Repeat! They are both leaning in. 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.759 And then they kiss! It's very short. 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:40.880 There's tension. 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:41.680 They don't know. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:43.440 Will the other person be upset? 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:53.759 But then Kevin leans in and Chiron leans in and they're going for a second kiss as Kevin moves his hand and oh damn, okay, immediately starts moving for the belt. 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.440 This moved quick. 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:00.400

And then now we've cut to I can't quite see what's happening. 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:02.240 It's probably simulated sex. 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:03.119 We're behind them. 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.759 Chiron's hand is digging into the sand. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:07.279 Something is moving. 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:09.440 Is someone giving someone oral sex? 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.000 No, he's manually stimulating Kevin. 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.960 I believe from this story, while Kevin cradles Shirone's head. 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:18.640 They look at each other. 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:19.920 A beautiful shot. 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:21.680 They're afraid to touch one another. 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:22.799 They've separated. 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:24.160 He says, I'm sorry. 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:25.759 What are you sorry about? 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.359 Yes, exactly, Kevin. 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.440 What do you gotta be sorry for? 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.000 And then he wipes off the ejaculate on the sand. 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.079 And then they're in the car. 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.880 Oh, chills. 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:40.559 Chills and tension. 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:41.759 Yeah, tell me more. 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:42.319 Tell me more. 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:50.240 I did think it was very fast to go from one kiss, break apart, question mark, kiss, second kiss, immediate belt. 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.400 I mean, to be fair, they're 16 years old. 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.839 I understand, I get it. 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:54.880 It's quick. 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.000 It is a big jump. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:03.279 I do believe that people do that though, especially when they're at that age. 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:10.079 And I think especially because we've established that Kevin is sexually much more experienced. 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.599 For him, it's not as big of a jump as for Chiron. 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:14.960 That's fair. 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:22.480 I thought that the shape they made when Chiron was manually stimulating him was really beautiful. 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:32.160 It was a little hard to see in the beginning just because the film itself is so dark and the camera angles were kind of interesting, but I actually didn't mind it. 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:40.880 I did not mind that we didn't understand what was happening because we understood that some kind of sexual contact was happening. 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:48.160 We hear breath pulsating and we see shifting shapes, and we do see the hand digging into the sand. 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:56.000 And my God, that hand digging into the sand, it reminded me the energy of Carol pulling the robe. 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.359 Pulling the robe. 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.279 It just was like, yes, dig in. 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:02.799 Yes. 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.039 I do love the hand digging into the sand. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:15.119 It's such a beautiful

way of showing what's happening between the two of them without being too explicit. 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:23.119 The writer director, Barry Jenkins, didn't want to shy away from having an overt homosexual moment in the movie. 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:28.720 But I'm also sure he was cognizant of the fact that these characters are minors right now. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.880 We're not trying to be too explicit. 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.000 And the film in general, I would say, uses subtlety beautifully and has a very deft hand. 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:41.680 So in all the ways, it makes sense that we're seeing it the way that we're seeing it. 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:48.480 I love that all of a sudden we're behind them and we're just seeing the shaking of the bodies and the cradling of the head is so sweet. 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.079 It felt soft. 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.240 They're kind of at an odd angle. 00:20:52.559 --> 00:21:00.240 It seems almost like they're watching the sunset together, like from that angle, and he's just holding his head. 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:06.720 If not for the shaking and breath and moan, I think that we might just think they're hanging out. 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:13.599 I included the context about the earlier chapter when they were 11 and they were wrestling. 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.519 I wanted to make it clear that like they've had a physical interaction before. 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:22.240 That one obviously was not very sexual because they were 11, but there was still something there. 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:31.759 They're in an environment where there is a very limited view of what masculinity is, and it does not include softness and vulnerability. 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:36.559 And I love that we get to see that with these two characters in this moment. 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.480 Should we spice scale it? 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:39.920 Let's spice scale. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:40.640 Let's spice it. 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:52.240 Welcome to the spice scale, our not so scientific way of rating intimacy scenes based on consent and power dynamics, technical craft and coordination excellence, and heat factor. 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.079 Each category gets a score from one to five, with five being the highest. 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.200 Then we add it all up to give the scene a final letter grade. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.480 Let's start out with consent and power dynamics. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:07.039 How the scene depicts consent and power in the story and if known behind the scenes. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.880 You want to take these one at a time as opposed to together? 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:12.079 I think they're different. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.079 I think we should look at them differently. 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:14.400 Yeah. 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:15.039 Agreed. 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.480 Let's start with scene one, the dream sequence. 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.359 Consent and power

is sort of interesting here because we are in Shirone's mind. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:23.920 Mm-hmm. 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:26.079 So he has all the power. 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.880 He is envisioning exactly what he's trying to envision in this moment. 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:38.880 I would say it isn't consensual because he seems upset looking at it, but it is consensual because he chose it. 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:47.519 I mean, I think this is really a manifestation of his emotional reaction to the story that Kevin told him earlier that day. 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:48.480 Sure. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:23:02.720 Like you were saying, there's that combination of feelings of being aroused by the idea of Kevin being sexual, even if it's with someone else, and then the sadness and maybe a little bit of jealousy of him being with a woman. 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:08.960 Definitely a lot of anxiety in the dream as he looks at them by moonlight. 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.400 Yes. 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:13.519 Yeah. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:25.920 Yeah, as far as like power, it does seem like in this situation, although he does ultimately have all the power, it's kind of a shared power between him and Kevin. 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:33.839 I think Samantha has little to no power in this situation, but I don't think it matters that much in this context. 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:40.319 I think it was really deliberate that we don't see much of Samantha because this really is about the two boys. 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:42.240 He doesn't want to see her. 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:43.200 Right. 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:47.920 And it's also this is much more about him envisioning Kevin being sexual. 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:55.200 And I love when Kevin turns and says, like, you good, Black, and calls him by the nickname that he had just given him. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:01.200 And it's like he's inviting him to be a part of the experience. 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:08.960 Not necessarily like physically join in, but to acknowledge, like, I know you're here and watching, and that's fine. 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.599 There's something kind of like tantalizing about it. 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.000 Yeah, it's called voyeurism, baby. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:14.880 Yes. 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:16.559 So I say a five. 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:17.279 That's what I say. 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:17.759 Five. 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:18.400 Five for me. 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:19.039 Beautiful. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:20.240 Second scene. 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.920 I have some background info. 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:22.640 Yes. 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:28.799 So this film is the film with the lowest budget that ever won an Academy Award. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:29.279 Okay. 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:31.920 This had a shoestring budget. 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.079 Because there was no budget, there was no rehearsal ahead of filming. 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.000 The actors met on set. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.480 And Barry Jenkins did not have an intimacy coordinator. 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:43.279 It didn't exist. 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:44.880 So it wasn't a thing. 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:56.079 He talked in interviews about how, especially for the second scene that we're talking about, he really wanted to make sure that the set environment was calm and quiet. 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:07.279 He wanted the boys to feel comfortable having this really intimate scene in front of a bunch of tough gaffer guys and mostly male crew. 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:15.759 For the second scene in particular, he had spoken to the actor playing Kevin, who was trying to understand where his character was coming from. 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.960 And Barry had told him, Shirone has never kissed anyone. 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:24.880 He hasn't been intimate with anyone, but Kevin is really experienced. 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:26.319 So you're shepherding him. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.880 And that like helped Kevin understand where he was coming from in that moment. 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:31.680 Okay. 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:40.559 I think that is real a real achievement trying to keep things quiet and calm when you are outdoors with two maybe teenagers. 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.400 It seems consensual from all the body language. 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:50.720 Power-wise, because Kevin has slightly more experience, he is more of the initiator. 00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:57.920 They both kind of initiate, but Kevin's the one who likes has the small thumb stroke on the cheek, which is super, super cute. 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.319 Yeah, so honestly, five for me. 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.240 Kevin does have experience with women. 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.519 It's never established whether or not he has any experience with men. 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:08.799 I'm assuming no. 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:12.240 Just because their environment, it's so contentious. 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:17.920 It feels like it would be so risky for him to have encounters with other men. 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.599 He might also not have any other men that he would be interested in. 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:29.680 So yes, he's more in power because in general he's more experienced, but at the same time, this might be both of their first times being with another man. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:30.880 I accept that. 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:32.240 Still fives. 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:33.119 Still fives. 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:34.880 Let's go to technical craft. 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:43.839 Technical craft and coordination excellence, the staging, film coverage, modesty, protection, choreography, and overall execution of the scene. 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:45.039 Scene one? 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:46.400 That underwear. 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:48.480 I know, I know, I know. 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.039 I wish it wasn't there. 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:57.119 I know he's 16, and I'm glad we're not sexualizing

them as 16-year-olds who are having sex. 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:05.680 However, why in his dreamiest of dreams is Kevin wearing underwear in this moment? 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:10.799 You could have had the underwear tugged down a little and it would have sold the story. 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:16.559 And it would have sold the story, and you don't have to see his rear, you don't have to see any butt sheep whatsoever. 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.559 Technically, he could have been using the escape hatch. 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:21.759 The escape hatch, yeah. 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:22.960 To penetrate. 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:30.319 For me, it's like a 4.5 because I'm like, technically, you could still be doing this, but it does kind of bother me. 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.880 I think it bothers me enough to go to a four. 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:33.440 Okay. 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:40.480 I I I understand that you can have simulated sex through the escape hatch. 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.119 And it's not to say that nobody does, but why would you choose to? 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:51.359 And even beyond that, this is his vision of them having sex. 00:27:51.839 --> 00:28:12.480 And while he may not know what that looks like, I don't need to see buttocks, but if we did see, let's say, for example, rear nudity, then maybe it would push the envelope even further of he's trying to see it and be part of it, but also is disgusted by it to a degree. 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:18.640 He has presumably access to pornography as well and movies as well and knows what these things look like. 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.839 But why would he envision him with underwear like that? 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.039 Like you said, he could have moved it down just like a little bit. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.839 He could have been wearing jeans and we just see the sides of the jeans like opened up. 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:30.880 I think it's weird. 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:36.319 He was telling the story about how he was having sex with her at the school, I think in a stairwell. 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:52.880 Even though Shirone doesn't know this, maybe Kevin would be doing it through his escape hatch because if someone suddenly shows up, it's easier to hide what's going on or to have some level of plausible deniability because your underwear's on. 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:56.559 It's a stretch. 00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:57.599 What is she wearing? 00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.279 Did I notice what she's wearing in there? 00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:05.599 She's wearing a dress and her dress is pulled up in a way that it's believable she's being penetrated. 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.039 It's a four for me. 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:07.440 Okay. 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.240 It's a four. 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:08.880 It's a four. 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:09.680 We'll give it a four. 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:17.200 It could have been a really interesting choice if her dress was all the way down, or if she was

wearing pants and the two of them are just like having sex with clothing on. 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:22.400 It would tell me that he doesn't want to see the action between genitalia there. 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.680 Some part of him wants and needs to see the two of them together. 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:28.079 But because her dress is up now, I don't like it now. 00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:28.640 I don't like it. 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.119 Okay, okay, fair, fair. 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:31.440 Four. 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:31.839 Okay. 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:32.720 Scene two. 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.599 I love the hand in the sand. 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.599 I love the kisses initially. 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:44.400 Do I think that the angling of the body perfectly represents the story they're trying to tell? 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.559 We all know what's happening. 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:55.039 If I were to be my Simon Cowell self and my simulated sex detective self, I would say it's not perfect. 00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:56.799 But I do understand the story. 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.359 I think it's well done, especially without an intimacy coordinator. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:02.480 I don't think there's anything here that I would have done very differently. 00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:08.400 I may have angled the body ever so slightly more into each other, but that's fine. 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:08.880 Yeah. 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:19.440 I was really excited for you to watch the scene because there's a lot of very subtle movements that are slowly building the physical contact between the two of them. 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:25.279 Like at first, they're knocking their arms into each other when they're joking around and little slappies. 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.119 Yeah, little slappies. 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:36.400 And then Kevin goes to put his arm around him, and then he has his hand on his neck, and then he moves his hand to his face, and he's stroking his cheek slightly. 00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:43.359 And the way that they move in, they don't just go for it, they start to move in, and then Shirone like looks at him and is like, really? 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:45.279 And then they move in a little more. 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.440 There's such gorgeous hesitancy. 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.359 They really take their time. 00:30:49.519 --> 00:31:01.759 And I will say, in the movie in general, Barry Jenkins is very comfortable with silences with taking things slowly because he wants to extract all those little moments. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:05.440 I loved the detail of him cradling his head. 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:06.480 I loved it. 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:08.960 It's so sweet. 00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:10.640 It was the cutest thing. 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:19.920 Listen, how many scenes have we seen where someone is manually stimulating another person and no one cares about their head? 00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:22.559 And you're not holding the other person at all. 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.880 Like they're like the only contact is the hand to genitalia. 00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:27.359 Yeah. 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.599 I also loved that he wipes his hand off in the sand after. 00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:36.000 I'm so grossed out by it, to be honest, but I do love it. 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.359 Like I love it conceptually and visually. 00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.160 It's such a strong image. 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:48.160 In reality, if I saw someone do that, I'd be like, mmm. 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.680 But in the movie, I think it's great. 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:53.519 And it's realistic. 00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:04.720 Like I remember when we were watching the scene from off campus where Garrett finishes pleasuring himself, and then you were wondering what happened to his ejaculate. 00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:06.000 He doesn't wipe it on the sheet. 00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:06.880 Right? 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:07.839 You know what? 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.440 You're making a good point. 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.920 I love to know where it ends up. 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.920 And I think that this was a good way to handle it because where else is it going? 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:33.519 When I was doing my research, the playwright who wrote the play, that the screenplay was based on, was talking about black masculinity specifically and the hypermasculinity that happens in these more impoverished communities. 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:51.359 And he was saying that to gain some power when you're in a powerless situation in so many different ways, you get to a point where you're being so rigid and so policed about how you interact with other people that you can't admit that you want to be caressed. 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:57.920 You can't have those soft touches with other men that you may want or with other people that you might want. 00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:02.480 And I thought it was so beautiful that they had that in this scene. 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.400 There was so much gentleness and care. 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:08.559 And it's a five. 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:09.359 Five for me. 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:09.920 Bye. 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:11.039 Bye, bye. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:17.359 Heat factor, the level of erotic charge or sexual tension in the scene. 00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.000 Dream sequence area. 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.640 The personal heat factor is like a one. 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.480 I don't feel much about this. 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:28.400 There is sex happening, but it doesn't feel very sexual to me. 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:29.839 It feels a little cold. 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.680 It feels like he's like, hey, what's up, bud? 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:42.640 But the actual what was represented, I don't know why I'm so stuck on this underwear, but it really changes a lot for me. 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:49.359 It feels like Chirone is intrigued as well as not interested in

looking at this. 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:54.640 Like he's hurt and he's intrigued, and I don't see a reason for his intrigue. 00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:01.839 It looks very clinical, and it's very like, uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh interesting. 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:19.360 It doesn't feel sexual, it doesn't feel sensual, it looks like a man penetrating a woman wearing underwear, and I mean I want to kind of a three, but I but I would be willing to give it a four if you want to give it a four. 00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:21.039 I would pump it up to a four. 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.079 I hear what you're saying. 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.639 I personally didn't find it to be clinical. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:31.280 It's tricky because it's a scene with minors, so it's hard to say like I was feeling this erotic charge watching a child. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:46.559 But what they intended, what they intended, and I think with the build of he's walking outside, he starts to hear moans, he hears the breeze, we have this gorgeous, sumptuous lighting. 00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:53.679 He walks out and he sees him from behind, and we do see his butt cheeks through the underwear. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:58.719 The sex to me was very believable for what a teenager would be doing. 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:13.280 I think when they cut to Shirone in his bed, the implication is that he's had a wet dream, like dreaming about this, yeah, and he kind of has that moment of release and then lies back on his pillow. 00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:15.760 I felt like they were executing what they wanted. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.159 But I mean, if you didn't, then that means it wasn't clear generally. 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:21.920 So I'd be cool with like a four. 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.760 All right, but the second scene, second scene, second scene's a five for me. 00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:28.159 Five. 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:28.800 It's a five. 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.119 Five, yeah, so gorgeous. 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:38.320 The tension that they build is so beautiful, it's so subtle. 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:41.360 And you know, we say this over and over again. 00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:45.360 It's not even about whatever sexual act they get to. 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.000 I would say like 80% is the build-up to that actual moment. 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:50.960 Absolutely. 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:53.119 The sexual tension. 00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:56.639 Tension. 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.400 Oh my gosh, just building, building, building. 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:05.599 I love the little slappies going into the little hits going into the little arm over the shoulder. 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:15.199 It the growth is so purposeful because you can almost feel the characters testing the water, testing the water, testing the water. 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:16.559 Mmm, five. 00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:17.760 Yes, five. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.519 So then that first scene got a B. 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.400 Still very respectable. 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:29.119 Fair. 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.199 But that second scene got an A. 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:32.559 It got an A. 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:38.719 A. 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:42.800 You know what happens when we get an A. 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:47.280 And as this is like ruining D we ruin it, yeah. 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.920 So how would you ruin it, having seen it more? 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:50.480 Okay. 00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:58.719 I would not have this be a moment where they're getting to be like gentle and soft with each other. 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:08.480 I would keep the masculinity that Kevin successfully is projecting in his everyday life and that Chiron is really trying to. 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:12.559 I would have them be really tough with each other and like kind of wrestle each other. 00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:26.159 And then they end up aggressively kissing, like in Brokeback, where Heath Ledger almost broke Jake Gyllenhaal's nose, and then he like vigorously manually stimulates him to the point where you're like, oh my God, ow, is he chafing? 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.280 There's no lubrication, jerking each other off. 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:34.880 And then they ejaculate at the same time and then nod at each other. 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:37.360 There we go. 00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:38.079 We did it. 00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:39.599 I love that. 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:46.800 I would say, let's move from manual stimulation to oral stimulation. 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.480 I believe even that shift, and he like holds his head down. 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.519 He's not cradling, he's holding that head down. 00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:01.599 And instead of breath and slight vocalization in that breath, we hear choking sounds. 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:13.119 I think just making it more porn-like, making it more aggressive, adding in Celine Dion as a soundtrack with ruin it pretty bad. 00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:20.639 I'm actually really glad we didn't see the ejaculate on the hand and that it just was like he just wipes it in the sand and we know what's happening. 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:21.840 We know it's there. 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.440 I don't need to see the liquid for that to feel authentic. 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.239 If not Celine Dion, some kind of needle drop. 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.239 What if it's like an EDM like dunno? 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:33.119 Sure. 00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.079 I was gonna say like a DMX. 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:36.639 Yes. 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:44.400 Or just not the soft sounds of the ocean breeze and the gentle moans. 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.679 Like instead, it's just like a hard song. 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:49.440 We ruined it. 00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:50.800 I think we ruined it. 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:52.079 Should we do some credits? 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:53.360 Let's do some credits. 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:58.239 If you liked today's episode, follow us on whatever podcatcher you're on right now. 00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.440 Leave us a review, tell us about your favorite scene we've covered. 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:05.119 Not only does it make our day for real, it helps other people find us. 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:07.039 Thank you for listening to Faking It. 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:11.199 This episode's research and contacts was done by me, Morgan Smith. 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:13.599 New episodes drop every other hump day. 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:16.559 Follow us on social media at faking it the pod. 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:18.400 Want to get involved? 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:19.519 I know you do. 00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:22.559 Head to patreon.com slash faking it the pod. 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:26.320 For$10, you get bonus content and never before seen footage. 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:32.800 For just one dollar, you can suggest scenes for future episodes, and you get a shout out like these listeners. 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:39.440 Thank you, Gina, Carly, goodbye, Guy, Susan, Dave's friends, Lee, Erica, and Brielle. 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:44.400 This episode was produced by Ariel Lee Cohen, social media and branding by Morgan Smith. 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.639 Our theme song is Faking It by Mike Getz. 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.480 Credits for the film or show we reacted to are in the episode caption. 00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:52.400 Stay real, fakers.