บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 223. Perfectionism, Self-Compassion and Making Progress - with Dr Tara Cousineau

ado, let's welcome Dr. 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.199 Tara to the Exam Study Expert podcast. 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:40.720 Hi, I'm Tara Cousineau. 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:43.040 I'm a clinical psychologist. I'm in the Boston, Cambridge area in the United States. That's Massachusetts. 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.959 And I'm really happy to be on your podcast, William. 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.199 We are so excited to have you here, Dr. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:49.680 Tara. 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:51.680 Thank you so much for giving up your time. 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:53.839 I'm really excited to have this conversation. 00:04:53.839 --> 00:05:17.360 Um I wonder perhaps if we before we zoom into the specific conversation about perfectionism, which I think will be of great interest to many of us listening today, I wonder if we could maybe start with just a little bit of breadth, perhaps your kind of perspective, having having had a uh a role as a staff psychologist on a on a university counselling um mental health services team at one of the world's great universities. 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:25.920 I'm just curious, what are some of the sort of challenges and patterns and trends that you've sort of seen in the years you've been doing this? 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:33.680 Uh, some of those kind of perennial themes that that create difficulties for students, um, you know, particularly studying at kind of elite institutions. 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:35.120 Wow. 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.800 So I've been a clinical psychologist for a long time, about 25 years. 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.079 I've worked at the University Counseling Center for about six. 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:50.319 So, in the short time, relatively short time of six years, I think if there's there were there's some interesting trends. 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:58.480 So we had COVID, um, which really actually incited a lot of anxiety because there was such a lack of structure. 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:09.040 And so um a lot of students and high achievers actually felt somewhat at a loss during that time because the structure wasn't there. 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:18.879 Um, and and now we have AI, which is, you know, in the last year has been also an interesting trend in a number of ways. 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:32.959 How that affects studying, I'm not as clear as how it affects when people sometimes come into my office and they've asked ChatGP, you know, how to cope, you know, or I'm going on a first date, or you know, I need an outline for a paper. 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:43.439 And so there's been some some interesting developments, I think, over the last few years that I I feel like we're all kind of curious about and trying to figure out how to navigate that. 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:44.879 Yeah, yeah. 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:54.720 And in terms of the sorts of things, the sorts of conversations you know you you have with with with students and and the sorts of uh issues they they bring to the table. 00:06:54.720 --> 00:07:01.759 I mean, I clearly perfectionism is is is one and and that's that was one of the kind of inspirations for for the book and your your work on this. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:10.639 Um are there any other uh sort of patterns that that you see people uh you know causing people to come and knock on your door, so to speak? 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:13.680 Well, I uh they're they're typical, I think. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:14.959 They're human concerns. 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:35.040 It's often imposterism, not feeling like you fit in, um sort of some hits to your self-esteem if you didn't do as well as that you you thought you could, um, having to do things that you didn't really have to do before, you know, presentations in front of large audiences, uh, situations like that. 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:36.720 And also just developmental. 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:48.720 I mean, you know, when you're transitioning from a high school to a college or college to graduate school, or even, you know, mid-career to graduate school, it's a new phase in life and you don't know what you don't know yet. 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.120 And that could be really uncomfortable for people. 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:57.279 So you you've got kind of particular passion and expertise for for the topic of perfectionism. 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.920 You've you know something you thought about quite quite a lot, written written on. 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:08.480 Um I I'm curious, you know, what what kind of got you what kind of got you particularly interested in in that subject uh in in particular? 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.720 What drew you to to work on that? 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:14.639 Well, I think first of all, I was raised by a perfectionist. 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:15.759 My mother is German. 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.639 We couldn't leave the house until things were organized and efficient. 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:20.959 We always had to look our best no matter what. 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:25.360 You know, uh you kind of squashed down your feelings in order to present yourself well to the world. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:26.639 So I had that conditioning. 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.920 I love my mother, by the way, but there was a lot of that conditioning. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:36.480 And then there's just growing up in, you know, in the world and then, you know, going to college and earning a PhD. 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:40.320 There's lots of comparison, you know, am I smart enough? 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.639 So I have that life experience. 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:46.480 I feel like, you know, I've been exactly where my students have been at one point or another. 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:48.559 So I I resonate very much. 00:08:48.559 --> 00:09:03.440 But what really got me started is was probably in the first year of working at the University Counseling Center where every student came in, either saying that they were a perfectionist or struggling with not

feeling good enough. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:11.200 And it was impossible for me on an hour-to-hour basis to address enough students. 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.120 So I decided to start some workshops. 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:20.000 I'm like, okay, if I could get more people who are feeling the same way in a room together, then we can start to tackle this as a group. 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:26.480 So I started running groups called Overcome Perfectionism and one for graduate students called Befriending the Inner Critic. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.639 And I've been running those for about five years. 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:34.879 And that has just been incredibly rewarding because many people struggle with this. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:36.720 You don't have to go to an elite university. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:47.440 Um, you don't have to even go to a college to actually experience a lot of the um sort of characteristics associated with perfectionism or wanting to strive or being highly motivated. 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:53.039 So, you know, I was just really immersed sort of in the perfectionism pond, so to speak. 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:54.879 So I felt like I had to do more. 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:56.559 Yeah, no, it's really interesting. 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:02.799 I I wonder if you could maybe just give us a little bit of colour um on the sorts of ways it's affected. 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:14.000 I know, either from your own story or from the students you've seen, sort of how it's kind of affected people, you know, perhaps in terms of kind of late for deadlines or kind of emotional state. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:21.039 Yeah, maybe just a little bit of human colour on what perfectionism means for people and what it uh how it impacts their lives. 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:27.279 Well, so I I've come to there are some research orientation, you know, sort of research definitions around perfectionism. 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:42.799 And I've sort of come to my own, I just call it my armchair definition of perfectionism, which is it's really a paradox created by a need for belonging and a fear of rejection paired with unrealistic expectations for achievement or approval. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.120 And this sacks your energy or life force. 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:53.440 So I feel like a lot of the research-oriented definitions don't actually address how draining it is. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:57.200 So people will come in often in a panic. 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:01.840 They've left a 10-page paper to the last minute, right? 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:04.399 They've they're trying to pull those all-nighters. 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:06.960 You're probably familiar with this behavior. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:15.279 Um, or they got their first B or C plus here in the United States, we, you know, the A, B, C, D system. 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:24.799 So they got, you know, a less than stellar grade on something, and it's so counter to their experience to that point, it feels devastating. 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:38.320 Or they're studying, if you know, medical student has a shelf exam, you know, they've just done a rotation and now they're going to be tested on it, and it will be, you know, sort of an oral exam or a written exam, and they're in a panic because they're afraid they're gonna freeze. 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:43.840 Those are the kinds of situations that might bring a student to a counseling appointment, and rightly so. 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:52.720 So you mentioned that that definition, um, which is really interesting, and and you you mentioned some of the kind of research, the kind of academic literature on this. 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:53.679 I'm just curious. 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:58.480 I mean, you you we you we may have a fairly scholarly uh listener phase today. 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:13.440 I'm just curious, like, are there any sort of interesting things um in the academic literature in terms of the sort of research that's been done on this that might be helpful uh for us in sort of starting to understand perfectionism, where it comes from, how it affects us? 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:18.320 I think it's a fairly small area of study, generally speaking. 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:29.360 Um, but in that domain, there have been researchers in Canada, for example, who have been studying perfectionism and they actually developed this multidimensional scale of perfectionism. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:36.720 And um, they've really sort of identified three types of perfectionism, if you will. 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:44.159 One type is self-oriented perfectionism, and self-oriented perfectionism is really, you actually have have raised the bar for yourself. 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:52.000 Your standards are really high, you strive for excellence, you're sort of internally, you know, internally and externally motivated to do well in the world. 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.159 Um, you put a lot of pressure on yourself, basically. 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.120 You know, that's the that's sort of the self-oriented perfectionist. 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.360 I know I identify with that category. 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:04.480 I got myself, you know, as the first, you know, person in my family to go to college and then get a PhD. 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.360 So I definitely fit under that category. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:15.600 Um, and then there is other oriented perfectionism where you have this expectation that other people have these high standards of excellence just like you do. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:22.399 And so you can get very easily frustrated when people don't meet the standards that you have or expectations you have for them. 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:37.600 And that could be the stereoty almost the stereotypical sort of bully that you might see in a movie, you know, um, you know, Meryl Streep's character and the devil wears Prada, you know, Miranda, you know, just this high unrealistic standard for other people

that no one can ever meet. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:38.960 So there's that category. 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:43.840 And we all have a little bit of all of this if you're at all in this domain of perfectionism. 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:53.120 And then there's um socially prescribed perfectionism, which is the kind of perfectionism where you're you're doing that, what I call the compare and despair. 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:58.240 You're constantly measuring your own ability, capacity, and success to other people. 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:02.240 Um, so those are sort of three buckets, and we have to see them more as spectrums, right? 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.039 So we might have a little bit of this, we might have a little bit of that. 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:18.720 But my understanding from the researchers is that the kind of perfectionism that has the most um consequences in terms of mental health is the socially prescribed perfectionism. 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:50.399 What I do think is interesting, and there's actually a UK researcher, uh Thomas Curran, who also wrote a book on perfectionism, um where there seems to be trends, if you this is so correlational versus causation, but that perfectionism really started, it was like on this little trend upward, and then all of a sudden there was this big spike, and that was around, I don't know, 2012, you know, or so in the in the mid-10s, if you will, that coincides with the onset of the smartphone. 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:58.879 When all of a sudden people started having their phones in their hands, you're looking at it 24-7, you you know, you go to sleep with your smartphone under your pillow at night. 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:11.279 And so we can make some inferences that social media, the introduction of smartphones, um spiked that socially, you know, that social perfectionism. 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:18.320 And so that's in a way the ones that we have to kind of watch out for, at least and sure enough, like that's one of the things. 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.159 I'm like, how long are you on your phone? 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:31.600 You know, if you're spending, you know, more than a few hours on your phone a day, that's a problem, you know, it could really sort of trigger um self-defeating thoughts and that compare and despair cycle. 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:33.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.720 Well, I'd I'd love to talk about some sort of practical strategies in in a moment. 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:42.080 It sounds like we may be already hinting the way towards one of them, which is try and get off the phone a bit. 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:48.080 Which has benefits for for lots of things, not just perfectionism. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:16:00.080 Um in terms of in terms of just sort of rounding out our understanding of of the kind of phenomena of of of perfectionism, you've mentioned this idea of the inner critic a couple of times. 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.840 I wonder if you could just expand on that concept a little bit more for us. 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:06.000 Yeah, sure. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:11.360 So, you know, perfectionism is really the sort of unrealistic set of standards, right? 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.919 Or ideals ultimately that's difficult to attain. 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:18.960 Well, how does that actually manifest in our internal life? 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:28.000 And it usually manifests um, well, physically with tension, stress, and anxiety, but also mentally with what we say to ourselves. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.559 So the that sort of inner dialogue. 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:38.480 And when we are stressed, the body is actually interpreting that as threat, right? 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.919 It's a it's a sort of str a response to threat. 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:43.840 And then we have to make sense of it. 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:45.039 So we come up with a story. 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:59.600 And the story is usually I'm not good enough, I shouldn't have been here, I'm a fake, I'm a fraud, and all sorts of things, you know, come in because we have this, you know, what some neuroscientists would call the negativity bias, right? 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:04.319 Is that our bias for our attention networks is to focus on what's wrong rather than what's right. 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:05.519 And we all have it. 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.000 We all have the negativity bias to some extent. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:16.880 And so that really can sort of feed that inner narrative or narratives, because often there's more than one narrative that's happening at the same time. 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:29.279 That's especially true for the perfectionist procrastinator sort of loop that will happen is that there's one part of you that's saying, This is exactly what someone said to me last week, you know, I'm saying, go, go, go, go. 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:34.000 And then there's another part of me that says, wait, just chill, just relax, it's gonna be okay, right? 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.880 So then you have this internal conflict that's happening. 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:38.720 Those are competing voices, right? 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.160 And they they both are valid. 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.200 You know, they're so how do you kind of manage that? 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:55.920 Um, so learning to identify and tease out with some specificity, what the narratives are can be really helpful in identifying patterns. 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:57.039 Yeah. 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:01.920 Well, should we talk a little bit about what we can what we might be able to do? 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:08.720 So if we're we're listening to this and resonating with some of the things you've been describing, uh Dr Dr. 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:09.279 Tara. 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:17.039 I would love to sort of explore what are some of the things we might be able to take from this conversation to to help us uh to help us move forward a little bit.

00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.519 So we've already signposted the way to one. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:24.079 You you mentioned the the impact of social media, smartphone use generally. 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:25.200 So that will that. 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:29.440 I guess the takeaway there would be, yeah, let's try and get off the phone, let's try and get off social media a little bit. 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:30.240 Right. 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.319 You know, people talk about a media diet, and that's all very practical. 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:38.400 We need diets, you know, we have to kind of do everything in moderation. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.680 And so I it's an obvious one, but students actually really do struggle with it. 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:48.319 They have a hard time because now they've got the dopamine hits and it's become a little bit of an addiction, and so to tight trait off can be you know challenging. 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:53.440 And that that can affect your social life, it can affect your study life, it can affect a number of things. 00:18:53.440 --> 00:19:03.279 But I'm gonna go back to the inner critic because you know, when I started running these groups in a university setting, there were different sort of scripts or stories that would come up. 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:09.119 And so then I kind of identified these archetypes, if you will. 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:14.240 Like there could be that inner bully, which is almost oriented, like that other oriented perfectionism. 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:23.119 Like you expect other people to do everything right, you expect yourself to do everything right, or an inner detective that's that's that doom scroller, or you know, leave no stone unturned. 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:29.599 Like sometimes some people cannot stop studying and they're not studying effectively, as you know, and they kind of go down these rabbit holes. 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.920 So there I call that sort of your inner detective. 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:37.680 There could be an inner joy thief that almost everybody relates to, and also in summertime, right? 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.400 People are on vacation. 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.359 I've got graduate students who say, like, I can't enjoy a weekend. 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:44.799 I can't relax because I've got all these other things to do, right? 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:49.920 And so that's a part of you that's saying it's not okay and you know, guilt trips you. 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.599 Um, there can be a nitpicker, right? 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:56.799 So I definitely have an inner nitpicker with the way that I grew up that I can't even think straight unless my desk is clean. 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:01.759 Like before this podcast, I had to actually just put away all my sticky notes because I had a hundred of them. 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:03.200 It's totally inefficient, right? 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.319 And so I need to actually work with that part, you know. 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:15.839 So when we identify that we've got these sort of, you know, little inner personas or characters and that they're all, you know, trying to help you in some way. 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:31.039 So, so here's where I kind of have like an issue with the mindset work because yes, it's great to change your mind, but if you don't understand the underlying mechanisms of why you're sort of like, you know, your inner judge is getting on you, um, it's gonna be very hard to change your mind. 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:32.319 You're gonna go back to that pattern. 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.400 So many people come in, they've got an inner judge. 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:42.319 Sometimes I'm like, give it a nickname, Judge Judy, give it, you know, and notice when that that comes up, because it does come up in every area of life. 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:50.480 It comes up, oh, in this computer science class, or it might come up when you have to go to the dining hall and you know, you don't want to sit by yourself. 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:52.160 When does the judge show up? 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:58.640 And how might this element have been constructed in your life to help you? 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.960 And this is where, like, you know, that's a mind-bending thing. 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.079 Like, well, you know, I need my perfectionism, I can't let go of it. 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.960 If I didn't have my perfectionism, I wouldn't have gotten this far. 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.759 And I'm like, Yes, that is probably true. 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.039 But do you have to suffer to get this far? 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.039 You know, check in with your feelings. 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:29.599 So when people start to to recognize, like, oh, this judge part of me showed up in the third grade when I had a math teacher, and that math teacher said, Well, I'm really surprised, Susie, that you didn't do better than this. 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:30.559 Right? 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:34.480 That becomes a traumatic memory in a way, you know. 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.039 And then, you know, what does little Susie do? 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:46.079 Well, she tries like heck to make sure that she doesn't make any mistakes and that she studies, and then she begs her mom for a tutor and all these things, and you know, and then overcompensates. 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:59.200 Well, when you can recognize that, that allows you to get a little bit of mental space and some emotional space to say, oh, I know why this little judge is here. 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:05.359 This class really means a lot to me, and I want to do well. 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.960 And then we start to insert practices of self-compassion. 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:22.559 So Thomas Corinne, who wrote a book on uh the perfectionist trap, and he comes from the sort of social economic perspective, like we're just marinating in the soup of perfectionism, and everything has to be more,

more, more and better, better, better. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.279 Um, you know, I had the same question to him that you had to me, like, okay, well, how do you help with this? 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.400 And he also mentions self-compassion. 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:35.839 Because the practice of self-compassion helps to offset that inner critical narrative. 00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:37.839 And there is a lot of research on this. 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:50.640 Is that self-compassion is a really great antidote to um that the harsh inner narratives, and it can help alleviate anxiety and depression and traumatic memories and all sorts of things. 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:55.039 And it's a hard sell, William, with high achievers. 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.599 You know, oh, be kinder to yourself. 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.079 You know, they're like, Well, I need to let myself off the hook. 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.759 And like, no, that's not what it is at all. 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:05.680 So then we actually have to learn what self-compassion is. 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:09.759 So not always an easy thing to implement. 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:16.240 I I can you give us some uh examples of ways we could practice more self-compassion, what that could look like in practice? 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:17.119 Yes, yes. 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.680 Well, you know, self-compassion is this, um, and again, according to the research, uh, Dr. 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.359 Kristen Neff's research, is that there's actually three elements of self-compassion. 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:26.319 Isn't that interesting? 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:31.599 One is mindfulness, which is being aware of this of the present moment without judging it. 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:38.799 Like, can we be aware of our moment-to-moment experiences without trying to define it, change it, or judge it? 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.519 So mindfulness is a really important element with self-compassion. 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.279 It's often, I think, there's no order here, but it's a good first step. 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:53.519 Um, the second piece is common humanity, which is recognizing that you are actually not alone with your struggle or your fears or your worries or your imposterism. 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:55.680 It is a human experience. 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:01.279 While your situation might be specific to you, it is actually a very common human experience. 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:05.599 And that's why I love doing the groups because I feel like it really engenders common humanity. 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:09.039 And then the the third component is self-kindness. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.279 And what is self-kindness? 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:18.079 And I was like, well, I think the easiest way to remember that is to like, you know, be a good friend to yourself. 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:19.519 I call it befriending. 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:29.119 You know, if you knew a friend was struggling with her exam

anxiety or her dissertation or her oral defense, how would you orient yourself to that person? 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:30.559 How would you tent to that person? 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.680 And you know, and often people say, well, I would be really encouraging. 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.680 I would be kind, I would give them a hug, I would say a mirror for them. 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.240 Like, great, can you redirect that back to yourself? 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.559 Can you make that u-turn and do that for yourself? 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.039 So those are the elements of self-compassion. 00:24:47.039 --> 00:25:14.400 And one way to kind of, and I'd be so interested from your study expertise, see what you think about this, um, but is actually creating for yourself what I call sometimes self-compassion statements or power statements where you actually are writing down for yourself a statement that is encouraging, that you can metabolize, that that it's not like fake it till you make it, you know, that you actually can digest it, right? 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:18.559 Because you know, people you tell people to go in front of a mirror and say, you are beautiful. 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:20.480 They're like, no way, I can't do that. 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:24.720 So you have to come up with phrases that actually mean something to you. 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:30.319 Um, and so it's being kind, it's being clear, and it's being authentic to yourself. 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:36.880 And I often ask students to write at least three of those and then to put it somewhere in their visual cue. 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.279 It's like, ah, screensaver on your cell phone is the first thing that you look at in the morning. 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:55.279 Um, put it on a sticky note, say it out loud, talk about it with with friends, start to create, it's like learning a new language, essentially, is orienting your attention to okay, we can call it a positivity bias. 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:56.640 And that takes time. 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.799 That is all about, like you said, making space. 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:00.880 It's about repetition over and over again. 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:09.279 And if you can reinforce that with allies, your roommates, your friends, um, it can be really powerful, but it does require practice. 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:10.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.079 No, that's that's great advice. 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:13.039 That's great advice. 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:26.400 And you you as as you've been talking, I've I've been kind of ruminating on some of the kind of specific ways I think kind of different elements of perfectionism show up in some of the conversations I have with with with my coaching clients. 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:34.400 And you know, like a couple of the big ones, I think, are you know, kind of beyond the kind of kind of everyone's sort of general impression of what you know what perfectionism would would involve. 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.279 I think there's a couple of interesting sort of specific little details where it kind of shows up. 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:49.359 I mean, one is you know, we talk a lot, as you know, about kind of power of retrieval practice on the show, testing yourself and that that being the the high road, if you like, to learning effectively, learning um, you know, in a in a kind of rapid uh space of time. 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.519 Um that inevitably involves being wrong. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.039 Like testing yourself means you'll sometimes get the answer wrong. 00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:01.759 Um, and sometimes people will put off doing the testing, doing the retrieval practice because they don't like the element of being wrong. 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:06.480 Like they want to just read it and read it or kind of write it out a billion times until they can get it like right. 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:16.480 But but that of course is in an inefficient way to study and means the whole thing takes a lot longer, versus like embracing the element of kind of being wrong and kind of accepting that as part of the process. 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:32.079 And and then I think sort of more generally, you know, for for students perhaps that are uh um you know further on in the academic journey, you know, as as you get into sort of more more um you know research roles kind of further on in the academic journey, you know, that increasingly involves a huge amount of uncertainty. 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:35.279 You know, you you're trying to figure out things that no one's figured out before. 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.759 It's not supposed to be easy, like it's really hard. 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:39.680 No one's worked this stuff out before. 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:48.559 Um, and you know, the the the sort of psychological struggles that people wrestle with there, um, you know, are very uh can can be can be very can be very tricky. 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:54.799 Like I've never been in one of those roles myself, but from the conversations I've had, um, you know, that's that can be can be a big thing. 00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:00.720 Well, there's a number of techniques that can be used, and this is where everyone needs to kind of figure out what their own toolkit is. 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.759 Like you need to try a number of things because not everything works for everybody. 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:05.920 I think that's there's like no simple answers. 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:15.599 But often when you're struggling with like, I really don't want to do this, or there's maybe a part of you that's saying, Oh, I don't have the energy, that's when an I say, use an even though statement. 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:23.759 Even though this is a struggle for me right in this moment, I know that when I put in the effort, I will feel so much better later. 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:26.400 And I completely accept where I am right now. 00:28:26.400 -->

00:28:36.400 And now you can pair that even with there's certain um energy psychology techniques like tapping, which so many students have found helpful because um tapping is emotional freedom technique. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:44.079 There's been a couple of meta-analyses on the benefits of tapping, which actually helps to reduce that amygdala response to the fear, right? 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:52.960 Because whether you're facing uncertainty, you don't really know what you don't know yet, or you're trying to discover something new, you have no idea if it's gonna work out, or you have to, you know, do an exam. 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:58.319 All of that is actually, you know, causing a fight-flight-freeze reaction. 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:04.400 So I often work people with people from a sort of like a bottom-up perspective versus the top-down. 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.279 Like mindset work is top-down, and that's really important. 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:14.799 But you also actually have to work bottom-up, which is actually tending to the nervous system in some way, and it's absolutely essential. 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:20.720 And I feel like for many students in particular, it's a missing ingredient. 00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.480 And, you know, are the you know, procrastination is often a freeze response. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.720 Well, that's different than a fight-flight response. 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:33.039 And actually, the coping skills for a freeze response are gonna be different than coping skills for a fight-flight response, right? 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:44.640 So if you're in that freeze response, skills that will help you get a little more energy and to move and motion is gonna be helpful if you're in freeze. 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.079 If you're in fight-flight, actually, the calming skills will be helpful. 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.319 Learning, you know, the breathing techniques, box, box breathing, things like that. 00:29:52.319 --> 00:30:00.400 So I feel like it's almost, you know, you have to kind of have a number of skills, like a good 10 skills, and then you have to know when to use them, right? 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.240 And that's when you have to check in with your body. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.799 What do you what is your body saying it needs right now? 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.160 Does that make some sense? 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.799 And then try all these retrieval skills, right? 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.039 I think it's important to practice. 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.720 I mean, life isn't easy, right? 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:15.920 So that's the other piece of it, is like that's why I like the even though statement. 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:20.640 Like, even though this is a struggle and I'm learning, I know that practice is really going to help me. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:29.680 Um, and it just kind of helps with the dialectic there versus the you know, all or none that humans will often default to. 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:30.880 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:35.200 Yeah, so maybe some days we need to to go go for a walk, get get the body moving. 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:39.759 Some days we might need to need to calm ourselves down and and do some decent breathing breath work. 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:59.279 One one other thing I just wanted to to put to you, and and uh kind of on behalf of of all of you listening, which uh, you know, this I know this is a thing for for a lot of people, um, is is it sounds kind of obvious when you say it, but the amount of conversations I've had where people are wanting to go into an exam, particularly being 100% prepared. 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:06.079 In other words, they have done every resource, they've done every question, they've learned every detail. 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:12.960 And that's rarely an achievable goal except at you know relatively young, you know, when you maybe 14 or 15. 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:17.680 You're taking quite a straightforward exam at high school, relatively straightforward exam at high school, you might be able to do that. 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:24.400 But the further up you go in academia, the harder and harder it gets to do that as as the scape scope and scale of your course grows and grows. 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:31.759 Um you you know, you'll you'll you'll never perfect every detail for for a more advanced, more challenging exam. 00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:34.720 Um and here's the thing: you you you don't need to. 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:36.960 Nobody needs 100% in an exam. 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.000 That that's not the goal. 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:43.119 The goal is to pass or get the 4.0 or the A or the whatever, and that doesn't need 100%. 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:44.960 That's so true. 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.000 The idea of enough, you were talking about totally. 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:49.839 It is, you know, what is enough? 00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:50.880 And so there's a couple of things. 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.240 So, because you like the research, right? 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:58.880 So there's a Canadian researcher, Patrick Gaudreau, and he looks at perfectionism in the context of goal attainment. 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.519 And he has what's called sort of the uh, you know, it's the point of diminishing return. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.359 So if you're looking at a graph, right? 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:11.359 So there's a tipping point where your striving for excellence is no longer beneficial, right? 00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:16.160 You've put in all of this effort and actually it's gonna backfire at a certain point. 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.799 You've put in 110%, and guess what? 00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:23.519 You're gonna be exhausted, more likely to make a mistake, uh, you know, all of that. 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:35.759 So I like that, I like sort of the idea of this point of diminishing returns, which brings in sort of the 80 or the 85% rule

that people often talk about, talk about it in business, talk about it, you know, it's like you're really shooting for 80%. 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:46.240 And that gives you some space, it gives you wiggle room, it gives you, you know, an understanding that, right, I need to get through this milestone. 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.839 It doesn't have to be, you know, 100%. 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:59.680 Now that is it's it's a hard sell, but when you when students begin to understand, right, uh there is a point of diminishing returns. 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:09.839 And often, and of course we see students when they're usually in that panic state already, like you have the privilege of seeing them before they get there, probably, but sometimes, not always. 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:18.880 Um, it's like, yeah, no wonder is like you know, they've gotten to this panic point and their body has spoken, right? 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:25.119 Because sometimes I say, yeah, if you don't get it yet, like if your body will tell you in some way. 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.119 And the body is such an exquisite emotional radar system. 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:39.119 So if you're denying how much you're struggling, or you know, you're trying to get to this point and you're not in sync with your body, your body's gonna shout it out. 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:40.000 So what happens? 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:46.480 You know, people get insomnia, they get IBS, headaches, migraines, there's all sorts of things, and those are really important cues. 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.839 You hope that it doesn't get to that level of significance. 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:56.240 So this idea of point of diminishing returns to me says, okay, what do you need to do to set up your life? 00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:08.880 That you're in a place of regulation, essentially, emotional regulation, attention regulation, like you've got a good balance in your life, and you're remembering the meaning of the work that you're doing. 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:20.000 So this comes up often like with dissertation students, right, or thesis students, where sometimes they they fall out of love with their project or why they went to graduate school in the first place. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:28.800 And um, you know, Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist, has what he calls a minimal viable, no, a minimal lovable product. 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:37.360 And I love that phrase because I feel like, you know, when you're going for your thesis or your dissertation or presentation, go for the minimal lovable product. 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:44.159 Like what still gets you sparked and inspired and that you feel like, yes, this is meaningful to me. 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:47.599 I have something to share with this particular audience or reader. 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:49.920 Um, that's what I'm going for. 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:55.599 It's not actually about me so much as about the meaning that I'm actually putting out into the

world. 00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:02.639 So you're almost like extracting you, your ego from the situation, like, oh yeah, I'm striving towards this. 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:05.039 And I do have something interesting to share. 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:11.840 So I love the concept of minimal lovable product because that's this, that's how I say minimal lovable dissertation. 00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:13.440 You know, get to where you need to go. 00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.280 You want to write that book, you do it after. 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.199 You know, you can always write it later. 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:32.000 So, you know, I think sometimes we just have to get to that 80%, you know, point rather than trying to go overboard and you might just end up harming yourself rather than helping yourself if it gets too extreme. 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:32.800 Indeed. 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:33.039 Yeah. 00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:35.679 I I love that idea of the minimal lovable products as well. 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.239 That's great. 00:35:36.239 --> 00:36:09.920 I uh put put in mind uh was it ahead of the the the calmest uh doctorate um PhD candidate I I knew um sort of tooth you know tooth in the final weeks uh before before deadline um he always struck in my stuck in my mind because uh he he he just um remember sort of asking him how his how his write-up was going and and he just sort of very calmly said, you know, I think I've got a I've got a good sensible body of work to to to call a PhD um and and that kind of attitude of like I've done a good I've done a sort of I've done enough. 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:10.960 I've done enough. 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:13.360 I've done a good enough amount of work. 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:20.800 Um and he handed it in and got a pass without any minor corrections, uh, which is not something you come across every day. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.800 Um so so he's done a great job. 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:28.480 Um but but that kind of calm I think was was really interesting to see in that attitude of I can always do more. 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.440 There's always more, you know, there's always more, there will always be more. 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.400 Um but I've done enough uh was was really cool. 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:42.239 The the we sort of I think the the the the conversation we're having about those sort of diminishing marginal returns kind of feeds into this this quite nicely. 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:47.280 But you mentioned a little bit earlier that sometimes we have this idea that perfectionism as kind of a force for good. 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.119 You know, we feel it helps us to achieve our goals. 00:36:51.119 --> 00:37:04.800 So so you know, clearly, like maybe a little bit of perfectionism in sort of inverted comments, you know, will help compared to having if you think the counter if if the if the uh if the counterfactual is having very, very low standards for ourselves. 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:11.760 You know, how would you help us sort of reconcile this idea that you maybe want a bit of a when you go too much, it's not good. 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:16.559 Yeah, no, I do think that we have to think of things more as multifaceted and honest spectrum. 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:19.440 I think that that's a much more flexible way of looking at things. 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:26.639 I mean, people often say, okay, like you know, it like perfectionism will be like the favorite flaw that you'll say in a job and review, you know. 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:32.480 But actually, if you can see it more as striving for excellence versus perfectionism. 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:36.480 And actually, Patrick Gaudreau, I loved it when I saw his research, I was like, yes, thank you. 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:41.360 You did the research behind this, where he calls it excellencism versus perfectionism, right? 00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:44.320 So you've got the isms in there, but it's really a striving for excellence. 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:45.360 And so, so what is that? 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.039 Well, that is that that good enough attitude. 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:57.440 It's having flexibility versus rigidity, it's having realistic expectations, it's not attaching your self-worth to your accomplishments, right? 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:04.880 Whereas perfectionism is very much a singular kind of identity focus that I am what I produce in a way. 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:11.199 And so I think we just need to kind of loosen the reins on the perfectionism. 00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:37.679 And there are a lot of perfectionism, you know, influencers, let's say, in the world, you know, of course, we don't see what people's struggles are in their real lives, but we have to remember that our brains are very vulnerable, you know, to the messages and the information, um, how systems are structured, that we don't even recognize that we might have fallen into that perfectionism trap because we're just marinating in it all the time. 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:46.480 So it is really important on the cognitive behavioral side, you know, to bring in some of those skills is like, well, all right, if I'm such a dumb person, you know, what's the evidence for that? 00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:48.159 Like then you start checking the evidence. 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:51.920 And there usually hardly is any evidence other than your own inner critic, right? 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:53.360 Which is not evidence. 00:38:53.360 --> 00:39:08.320 So we have to kind of remind ourselves that um there's actually a lot of positive things are happening in our life all the time, and progress is being made, but we're not paying attention to that. 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:16.239 What we're paying attention to is what we're not getting done or not, you know, and so we really do have to see where is our attention going? 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.239 And that is actually sort of a really good mindfulness skill. 00:39:20.239 -->

00:39:22.719 Like, where are you noticing your attention is? 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:31.760 But to your question about like when students say, Well, ah gosh, I you know, my perfectionism got me this far, and I'm like, okay, let's keep the word perfectionism. 00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:36.960 When you notice it in your life, how are you feeling? 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.760 Let's just do a little litmus test. 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:40.719 How are you feeling? 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:45.679 And if they say they're tense and anxious and in panic, I'm like, okay, it's not really working for you, is it? 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:53.360 If they're saying, Well, I'm feeling inspired and motivated, and and you know, I can't wait to pursue this, I'm like, oh, then it's inspirational, right? 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:59.360 So I think sometimes we have to kind of check in with what our body and our mind and our hearts are telling us. 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:02.559 Never a one size fits all. 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.000 It's never a size. 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.719 Your own uh yeah, your own psychology around this all this is so important. 00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:17.519 I did just want to ask though, so you you've shared a kind of a number of nice sort of practical nuggets along the way as we as we've been talking. 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:38.159 I kind of wondered if there's one, and you know, mindful of the fact that you know different things for different people, but but if there's kind of one or one or two sort of practical habits or tools that you think you wish the the kind of the typical student, the vast majority of students, would know and use when it comes to to supporting with with this area. 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:41.599 Is there anything in particular that comes to mind that that we haven't touched on? 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:49.920 Well, I wanted to remind your listeners, sir, wherever they are in their life, they have all the gifts that they already need, all the talent. 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:51.920 They're there, they're in you. 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:58.639 Sometimes we just need to kind of pull over the curtain to see that they're there and to really trust yourself. 00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:01.519 So I think self-trust is a really important element. 00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:08.880 Um and and just trying to silence those inner critics and that inner doubt, right? 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:10.079 That's just fear speaking. 00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:17.039 And if you can actually become comfortable with uncertainty and fear, and no, it's just another sort of element in your life, I think that will be really helpful. 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:23.199 And the second thing is I would really encourage people to practice self-compassion. 00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:35.599 So, you know, there are studies that show that even like micro moments, like putting a hand on your heart or just inclining your head towards yourself and saying, you know, like, oh, hey, Tara, you're doing the best that you can. 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:36.559 It's gonna be okay. 00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:37.760 Keep at it. 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:45.039 Some simple gesture like that, done repeatedly every single day, actually promotes well-being. 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:46.239 And it's so simple. 00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:50.239 I feel like it's the best prescription, you know, that we can have. 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:54.239 Um, that, and then let somebody else know that about themselves. 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:55.840 Like be kind to somebody else. 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:00.480 I know it sounds simple, it sounds trivial, but uh, the research is unequivocal. 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:05.280 My first book was called The Kindness Cure how the science of compassion can heal your heart and your world. 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:14.159 And there are all of these skills accumulate benefits over time when you practice them repeatedly. 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:19.280 Just like if you're practicing those really great study skills, repetitions matter. 00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:21.920 So be kind to yourself and repeat. 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:23.840 Well, Dr. 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:28.400 Tara, thank you so much uh for that and and for your wisdom generally today. 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.599 It's been genuinely really, really interesting talking to you and I. 00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.519 I've taken a lot from our conversation. 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:36.639 Uh, and I'm sure many, many of our listeners will have as well. 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:43.840 If anyone is interested in your work that wants to find out a little bit more, where would we go next? 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:45.360 Oh, sure. 00:42:45.360 --> 00:43:06.639 Well, people can find out about my book, uh any sort of online retailer, The Perfectionist Dilemma, or go to a website for the book, which is perfectionistdilemma.com, or my website, which is my name, tarahuzno.com, or if you're interested in learning more about perfectionism, I have a Substack newsletter called the um The Peaceful Perfectionist. 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:08.960 So you can find me on Substack too. 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:09.599 So yeah. 00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:13.280 But it's been a joy to be on this podcast with you, William. 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:14.079 Wonderful. 00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:14.960 Well, thank you again. 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.519 We will put the links in the show notes to make it easy for people to find. 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:18.800 Thank you so much once again. 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:20.400 We really appreciate it. 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.840 Well, thanks again, Dr. 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:24.559 Tara. 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:30.239 Uh, and as always, links to Tara's resources, including her book, are in the show notes. 00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:37.039 So do take a look at the episode description on whatever platform you're listening to and click through those links to check out her work. 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:46.400 I want to take a moment uh just before we go today to thank our supporters on Patreon over the past year or so since we we relaunched our Patreon. 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:52.880 Uh, really grateful to those who've been supporting us in that time uh and really helping to make the show possible. 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:59.760 Uh, if you yourself have found value from the show uh and the tips we've shared, and that's helped you in your studies, helped you along the way with your exams. 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:04.800 And if you're in a position to do so, we'd be really glad to welcome you to our supporters community. 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:09.679 And in exchange, we'll be able to hook you up with some really nice exclusive benefits just for our supporters. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:17.119 Go and check out the options and how you can support the work we do over at examstudyexperts.com forward slash Patreon. 00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:20.400 P-A-T-R-E-O-N, the links in the show notes. 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:24.159 That's examstudyexperts.com forward slash Patreon. 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:27.039 And thank you very much to all those who support. 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:32.239 And with that, I just want to say thank you to everyone for tuning in today. 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:38.960 It's been a joy, as always, to have your company, and I'd love to wish you, as ever, every success in your studies. 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.519 I'll look forward to seeing you next time. 00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.159 Well, that was good, wasn't it? 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.199 I found myself taking notes. 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:57.599 If you need a reminder of anything from today, head to the website for a write up of this episode, as well as lots more top notch advice and resources. 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.119 That's uh examstudyexpert.com. 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:03.519 See you next time.