บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Evolving Fire Chats with Sravya Gummaluri and Dr. Frank Gorritz

kind of where my journey really kind of even took off because now I had more like of an influence, more power to really kind of start bringing um awareness to this topic and then also just awareness to topics in counselor education as a whole. 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:23.600 So that's kind of really where my service had started. 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:32.319 So kind of starting from my own personal experiences as a survivor and now kind of leading into leadership as a platform to kind of start advocating for really important issues. 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:46.079 Um, so yeah, and then from there it just kind of took off and um I've really kind of used leadership in counseling as a vessel in many ways to provide service, um, and then also just help communities that aren't necessarily heard in our spaces. 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:57.600 So that could be students, that could be new professionals, um, BIPOC and marginalized folks in counselor education as a whole through various organizations like Counselor Social Justice, um, AMCD and other spaces as well. 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:12.560 So um, yeah, I would say really my journey just started from my own personal experiences, and then really just wanting to make sure that other folks who are feeling alone um in terms of their own activism or feel like they aren't being advocated for, um, feel like they have a community that stands behind them. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:14.240 Thanks for sharing this, Robbie. 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:15.040 What about you, Frank? 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:17.759 How did you end up where you're at? 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:42.480 So I think, you know, as a prelude into getting into that, you know, I I want to clarify, I think, what we mean when we say white supremacy, because there's a lot of misconstruing of information, particularly from, you know, folks who are trying to defend racist systems, who are maybe trying to defend their own privilege, they're afraid of confronting systemic injustice, right? 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:48.560 And I want to speak to that in the sense of white supremacy isn't about hating white people. 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:50.399 It's not about that at all. 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:59.920 This is about hating the white racial dominance that has impacted our systems and has influenced the way that we lead our lives. 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:16.560 And so I know for a fact that white racial dominance and heterosexism played a huge role in my life, even just stemming from being a kid, you know, I'm Puerto Rican, and even in my family, we weren't really encouraged to learn Spanish, right? 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:20.879 We spoke English in the house, we spoke English at school. 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:28.639 And even though it was never forced on us to only speak English, it's we had to fit in with the norms, right? 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:33.920 That was the at least the expectation, not just at home, but in school as well, right? 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:37.600 So I grew up in South Florida, and I actually live now where I grew up in South Florida. 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:39.680 Um, I grew up in Coral Springs, Florida. 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:47.759 Um, and so back in the day there, there was a lot of white representation in just everything you could think of. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.519 Um when I first, you know, was really coming to terms with my sexuality as a gay man. 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:57.920 Um, that was when Queer uh Query for the Straight Guy came out. 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.120 It was like legit airing on TV for the first time. 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.959 Um and I'm sitting here going, OMG, this is so weird. 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:08.399 And I was I was sitting here going, I shouldn't be watching this. 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:09.839 I need to turn a channel. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:10.720 I shouldn't be watching this. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:12.319 Because I grew up in those systems, right? 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:12.480 Right. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:18.240 Where they encouraged you, you know, as a man to pursue heterosexual relationships, right? 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:32.159 Um, and so with all of that, there was a lot of reckoning that I had to come to and figure out on my own, and because it's these systems that isolate brown young people and black young people from being able to explore themselves. 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:35.440 I didn't have any mentors to guide me when I was young. 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:50.960 I um I actually always wanted to be a helping professional, but I didn't kind of face that because I think I took a peer counseling class in high school, and a teacher who was a white woman uh said I wouldn't be good at it, and so I never pursued it. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.240 That impacted my entire life, someone's opinion. 00:08:54.639 --> 00:09:06.799 And that's how, you know, I continuously come to terms with that to this day, because I let the dominance of white representation really speak to how I lived my life. 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:10.399 So I'm working in retail, I'm still doing social justice work. 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:12.960 That has always burned alive inside me, right? 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.080 As we, you know, focused on um advocacy within South Florida. 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:24.080 Um I was president of Lambda United uh with uh Florida Atlantic University, which was my undergrad. 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.799 And um, we had a blast really just disrupting straight culture on campus. 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:34.639 Um we had parades all the time, we just like and I don't think they were even authorized, we just like did them. 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:34.960 Yeah. 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:37.519 Um some of them we just did, you're like whatever. 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.120 Um because we needed that in 2012, right? 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.159 And we still need that today, um, for sure. 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:49.360 So the the young queer folks who are listening, you

know, please, you know, take up that mantle and be disruptive. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:53.120 Absolutely disruption has been what's gotten me here. 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:54.639 Disrupting the odds. 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:54.960 Yeah. 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:56.960 Because, you know, and you know what? 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.120 I think too, my mentors did not show up for me until I was 20 or 21. 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:02.639 Let's like put it at that. 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.200 Or actually, no, mid-20s, mid-20s, even. 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:12.480 Um, because my dear friend Nicole was a black woman who really saw potential in me and told me I needed to go into counseling. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:13.600 And I was like, no. 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.559 And she's like, I'll literally unfriend you if you do not apply for this program. 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.960 Um I was like, okay, fine. 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:23.840 Um because I showed her some programs and she was like, see, you're looking at it, you want to do it, right? 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.000 And she encouraged me, so I did it. 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:27.279 And I loved it. 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.360 I realized this is what I'm actually good at. 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.799 You know, I never knew what I was good at before that, other than astrology. 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:36.240 I had my little astrology book, and that was like all I knew, right? 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:37.039 That's awesome. 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:40.240 So like I was obsessed with astrology because that was the one thing I was good at. 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:49.759 But maybe what I was really good at was people and emotional intelligence, and um, that was something that I never got to own until I started being in this field. 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:50.159 Yeah. 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.919 And so I grew up, by the way, thinking that I couldn't do anything. 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.000 I was not an A student kid. 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.279 I was like a C student, D student, B student, B's got degrees, you know, nobody cares. 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:01.919 Yeah. 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:10.240 But in my master's program, I was like, I want to do something different because I grew up thinking my entire life of how much I couldn't do. 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:10.559 Yeah. 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.399 And now I want to do everything. 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:19.360 Everything that I was told I couldn't do by my own personal conscious, the systems, etc. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:21.120 And then I was straight A's. 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:23.279 Master's and doctoral, straight A's. 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:24.080 That's what I did. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:25.519 Because I could do anything. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:27.279 And I had to keep reminding myself of that. 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:33.759 Now I'm a teacher, now I'm all these things that 14-year-old me would have never even imagined being at all. 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.159 Um, I didn't even think I could have a future. 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.240 That was not in the cards for me. 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.679 I think, you know, I think they said I could be a news reporter. 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.320 That was the high school assessment that I got. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:46.720 Um, and I was like, interesting. 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:47.679 Um, okay. 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:49.679 That doesn't resonate. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.039 I mean, it could. 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:52.799 I mean, I've got presence. 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:54.559 You know, screen presence. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:55.279 I have presence. 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:04.799 You know, but coming into my queerness allowed me to own my presence because, like, you know, feeling repressed and suppressed in that way, it's it's silencing, it's deafening. 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:18.159 Um, and so I I feel like really just being able to bloom out on my own through the the the prison, the prison type cocoon that keeps you inside because of these systems. 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.799 So that's how I feel like I really got here to this point in my life. 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.559 Now that I'm like 37. 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:26.639 But don't tell anyone about that. 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:28.960 Listeners, if you're listening, don't tell anyone. 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:29.840 Yeah, right. 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:30.320 Yeah. 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:32.720 Don't reveal that information. 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:33.679 Correct. 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:34.559 Yeah. 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:42.159 Yeah, I I really resonate with some of the stuff you're saying about um like being told what we can't do. 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:44.159 I feel that a lot. 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:52.559 Um I I feel like I had I had such an interesting, I think it's interesting, journey to where I'm at. 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:54.639 I also did the retail game. 00:12:55.279 --> 00:13:04.639 Um I my undergrad was from a very small private Southern Baptist College in South Alabama. 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:12.240 And um I went there because I was convinced if I was stronger in my faith, I wouldn't be gay. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.200 And it was an all-women's. 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:23.200 So I'm not sure how going to an all-women's college was supposed to help with that, but whatever. 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:37.279 Um but it was such uh I I am appreciative of that experience in some ways because that's where I I started realizing I did have leadership skills. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.440 Um and but I didn't know what to do when I was done. 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.200 I have a BA in English, and I'm like, what the fuck am I supposed to do with this? 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:52.720 So I did the retail game and um then a friend of mine was like, I really think you need to think about being a counselor. 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:54.799 And I was like, what? 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:16.320 And so

and so yeah, that sparked into I went to yeah, I went to Appalachian State for my master's and um that's where I really feel like I got an understanding of the advocacy act activist part of me. 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:24.240 Um I don't feel like I really knew that until I went to my graduate um program. 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:30.960 And um yeah, I had, you know, my that's when my mentors showed up. 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:45.840 Um I had two mentors that I still have contact with from my master's program, and they were very instrumental in getting me involved with um, you know, our professional organizations and encouraging that. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:54.080 Um and then also they one of them is is the whole reason I have um any adjunct experience in teaching. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:02.559 Um he just said, here it is, here's the class, take it if you want it, um, because of some issues in his own life. 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:13.840 And um and that I feel like has morphed into a much more activist part than an advocate. 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:20.480 You know, I feel like as a master's student, I was really into feminist therapy, you know, because that made sense to me. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:27.679 My partner's first degree was in gender and women's studies and race studies, and it was like that just clicked for me. 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:43.919 Um and then as I got in the field and was doing my thing and um was kind of trying to figure things out, doing communal health, and then um yeah, being in leadership. 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.080 Uh Sravba, you talked about leadership too, you know, being in those spaces. 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:55.679 Um and I think sometimes just realizing the bullshit that's in those spaces, it's like, what are we doing? 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:57.679 Why why do we have to do it this way? 00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.200 This is so oppressive. 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:17.360 Um I really started moving away from that and um well, I won't say away from leadership, but a away from certain organizations and yeah, just really morphed into, I feel like more as a more of an activist. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:29.440 Like activist feels um responsive, you know, like we're doing things, we're trying to shift the tide. 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:48.000 Um and I feel like that was kind of part of my process is realizing um how I needed to show up in spaces and um and kind of push, like you know, Frank said, being a disruptor in those spaces. 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.919 Um because those spaces are so oppressive sometimes. 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:59.279 Um and just not they just don't feel helpful to me in a lot of ways. 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:10.000 Um yeah, I I I think 20-year-old me would be very surprised that I ended up where I did. 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:37.039 Um again, just growing up in the Southern Baptist Church as you know, uh being um a socialized female, I was told a lot about what I couldn't do and where my fa where my you know where my place was, and you know and so to deconstruct that and then learn that and then kind of show up and be a disruptor is very different. 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:38.480 Very different. 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:47.119 So social justice, that's how the three of us came to know each other, being involved with counselors for social justice. 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:59.519 So thinking about kind of just where we're at right now as a field, um what do y'all feel like how we're doing with that? 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:00.720 Where are we going? 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.119 Any of that around kind of social justice? 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.079 Would you like to go first thing? 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:11.920 Go ahead, please. 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:14.319 I have a couple of thoughts. 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:21.839 So um first things first, I think relatively, I feel like more people are getting it in the provision. 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:30.319 Um, so just like what social justice can consist of, how they can be involved in the various types of social justice and how those forms can present, right? 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:37.119 So you don't always have to be on the grounds demonstrating your social justice can show up the research, the writing, through working with their clients, right? 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.960 Or even just within conversations um within the community. 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:48.240 And so I think we are making progress in that and how people are defining themselves as social justice activists and advocates. 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.640 Um, but I think a lot of work is still performative in a sense as well. 00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:02.319 So I think um, you know, that's kind of just been my experience where I've met some wonderful people who are really doing the work because this is what they want to be doing, this is how they grew up. 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:06.559 Um, and then I've also met a couple of people who are doing the work, right? 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:08.640 But it can also be performative to an extent. 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:10.559 And in the end, that can be harmful. 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.039 Um, so that's kind of how I have experienced social justice in the field as a whole. 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:21.119 So with my work, I'm really trying to like push people to move forth past that performative piece, right? 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:30.640 So, you know, you can be doing the work, um, and you know, you don't necessarily have to like get anything out of that work other than just like supporting the community and helping people. 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:37.440 Because I think sometimes social justice work can be praised in some ways, and that's where the performative piece comes in. 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:44.000 And I think it's really important for people in that space to really kind of start thinking, okay, like what is what aren't my core values? 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.559 Why did I start this work to begin with?

00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:50.960 And kind of, you know, redirect themselves, reflect and kind of go from there. 00:19:51.119 --> 00:20:00.559 Because I think when we all kind of come together and um kind of get rid of that performative piece, we can actually really make some important movement for communities that are really being impacted. 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:01.440 And as well. 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:04.160 So that's kind of how I've experienced it. 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:11.039 In terms of leadership spaces and social justice, um, I feel like again, we are making movement as well. 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:25.279 I think we again just have to break past those oppressive hierarchies and how whiteness still kind of sits in our institutions and in our organizations, especially within counseling, because again, the field has been so it has been colonized, right? 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.279 It is built still on white supremacy. 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:31.599 So, how are we going to, like you were saying earlier, Frank and Angela, how how are we going to be disruptors? 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:38.400 How are we going to dismantle that white supremacy and hierarchy to continue moving forward to really do some good work? 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.799 Well, yeah, having people show up with where their strengths are. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:53.839 You know, and I feel like I I've just it's uh it also is bothersome to me how white supremacy has gotten into our activism. 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:08.480 You know, it's like you'll hear even some, you know, very popular, um, respected uh people in the field talk about, you know, well, if you haven't done this, this, and this, don't talk to me about being an activist. 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.319 And I'm like, whoa, hold on. 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:23.200 Like you realize like that's uh just as oppressive, you know, that it you can't claim the term activist if you've not done these certain things. 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:28.880 Like, no, that's not that's not what our the leaders before us just showed us. 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:33.599 Is that activism comes in a lot of different ways. 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:46.319 And so finding where your strength is and doing that instead of trying to, you know, look at I guess leaders or elders in the field and say, oh, if I don't do it like they're doing it, then I'm not doing it. 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:47.440 Well that's not true. 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:52.880 You know, not everybody is uh somebody standing on the street corner, you know, protesting. 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:59.599 Some people are babysitting the kids of the people who want to stand on the stand on the street corner, you know, or cooking the meal. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.559 for the neighbor, you know, or whatever. 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.720 Like all of that to me feels like activism. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:29.119 Um and yeah, how do we because I I agree with you, Saravi, in that you know, it it's bothersome

to me how we see the same even within CSJ, even within especially within ACA, even within our state branches, we see the same people. 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:30.400 Right? 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:42.880 The same people in leadership, the same people getting awards, the same people and it's like are we looking outside anybody else? 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:49.680 I mean and for me, and I no shade on counselor educators, like full-time counselor educators, spirit bless you. 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.559 Oh, you can throw shade, honey, let's say spirit bless you. 00:22:53.359 --> 00:23:10.319 That has always been my criticism of the field is that especially organizations, state branches, North Carolina, probably Florida, ACA, all these organizations, the people in leadership are counselor educators. 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.319 Most of them are not full-time clinicians. 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:24.799 I totally agree with that point and another point that you're making just to the earlier which I'm going to reflect on as well, but even just the privilege of being able to pursue a PhD, right? 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.400 Not everyone has that privilege. 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:36.480 So really who are we kind of allowing to show up in these leadership spaces to and you know not everyone again is going to have access to the resources, especially now, right? 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:42.400 With the big beautiful bill and other federal funding cuts to even be able to pursue that level of education. 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:54.240 So are we going to actually open up these leadership spaces to clinicians um to members of the community as well because they bring a lot of expertise that you know countereducators might be far removed from as well. 00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:03.200 So and another point I wanted to make was just your um reflection of just the leadership hierarchy as a whole, right? 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:09.039 How we might have recurring members, we might just have people who have been in these positions for such a long time. 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:16.960 It kind of reminds me of just our government structure as so even just looking at the Senate people have been there for years and years and years. 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:23.039 And this was actually a question I was asked at the watch um march on Washington last week in that interview. 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:30.240 And basically you know um even just like restructuring that from the ground up was my answer. 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:36.160 And I think that's what we have to do in our counselor education and um leadership spaces as a whole as well. 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:44.240 We just need to do a whole systemic reform and a full systemic restructuring to kind of start abolishing that white supremacy that shows up as well. 00:24:45.279 --> 00:25:14.880 Absolutely Frank you want to throw your thoughts in here I have so many bubbling thoughts right now which I'm so you know I'm really excited to share um I think because I'm also kind of realizing a little bit too as we're talking you know sort of the humanized aspect of why counselor educators are still doing what they're doing. 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:21.279 And I think it's because too this is a very this is actually a lot easier field to get into than people think. 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:22.319 Why? 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:29.119 Because the expectations are not that high people actually don't have to be licensed in counseling to become a counselor educator. 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:56.160 That's that's troubling to me right we have counselor educators out there who have no clinical practice experience have sat next to them in training they've turned to me and said what do we do but they are actually actively training other people who are going for their licensure and like we can't we can't have that but you know what it is what I find interesting is that what draws a lot of people into countereduction is folks who feel disempowered. 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:12.799 Somehow if we go into countereducody a whole sense of goodness and I think that is also part of the problem sometimes because when we're trying to chase goodness so much this puritanistic stance of who we can be that's part of white supremacy. 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:28.799 Well right it's like because that means that that's the standard right like whiteness is the standard and as long as that's the standard yeah I mean it's gonna be in order to get close to that we've got to uphold these systems of oppression. 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:41.440 No matter who we are whether we're white Hispanic Asian whatever that that's where we've got to get to right in order to have goodness. 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.720 Yeah because goodness they're now equating with power. 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:45.119 Right. 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:49.759 And I think that's where a lot of countereducators are going wrong on this is they're equating power with goodness. 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:51.920 The power to change systems and do all these things. 00:26:52.000 --> 00:27:07.759 That's what we get promised in school but we need to ask all the countereducators who are listening when are we going to recognize when we turn into an oppressor ourselves when do we realize that the power that we're seeking is actually changing us. 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:21.680 Changing us because maybe we're seeking that approval, that validation which is why so many people are trying to go for awards and organization involvement because the tenure system also takes advantage of our psychological weakness. 00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.920 It takes advantage of you need to do all of these things to prove yourself to me. 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:47.920 And it's this ongoing system ongoing system of disempowerment that leads us to a psychologically wounded place and asks us to take over everything as much as possible to prove our worth and I feel like that's what a lot of people are trying to do and a

lot of white people in catch education have a really easy time doing that because of their privilege access. 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:54.799 And they have a ball doing it but sometimes if we're not realizing that the power is controlling us we turn into the oppressor. 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.880 We are the ones who are taking our frustrations out on students of color. 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:17.359 We are the ones who are gatekeeping students of color for our own personal reasons that have to do with biases that were never examined because we're just trying we're just trying to chase the power that we never had so we know what it's like right I and I hear that sometimes between the words of what counselor educators are saying. 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:18.240 Yeah. 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:54.079 And I don't think and this is one of the the other points that I have too if you've never had your core identity taken away from you then you will never really know what oppression feels like and why people of color are enraged why people are disruptive right you can have your right to be attacked but when your psychological core gets taken from you because of these systems it brings out something different in us something different for us where we're actually fighting to make a difference so that doesn't happen to other people. 00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:05.440 And there are some people who have never been able to even emotionally touch that experience because then they're judging the people who are disruptive and going that's not professional. 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:06.960 Right? 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:18.880 Professionalism has become the new gatekeeping for white supremacy um because it's also very vague and very differentially uh defined um and that's what's so sneaky about white supremacy. 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:33.759 It loves to find ways to disguise itself in standards and expectations and even if we're just trying to do the best we can it sneaks in there because in order to be the best person we can be, we are misquating goodness with power. 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:52.319 Yeah I feel like it's what hit me about what you're saying is about yeah if you've never had your core identity either taken from you or told that it was sinful or wrong. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:11.680 You know it's like that I mean that is that is a at least for me that is part of kind of that was a I mean it's a deconstructing religious trauma that I'm still doing at almost forty six. 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:38.000 I mean to and like to be in those spaces you know and being told because we're all in spaces where we're told you know what's good, what's professional what's whatever and so much of that is connected to all these systems of oppression white supremacy and patriarchy and racism and sexism and you know fill in the blank. 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:45.359 Um and that to just sit with that. 00:30:46.480 --> 00:31:02.319 I think especially when we have privilege um it's uncomfortable and I appreciate Frank what you said at the beginning about white supremacy is not about hating white people it's hating the system of whiteness. 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.559 And it made me think of yeah because it does it to people of color too. 00:31:06.799 --> 00:34:18.079 Yeah for sure for sure that you know people people of color people of the global majority trying to get close to whiteness again because that's the standard you know that's the goodness I mean even think about you know Carl Jung and our metaphors and archetypes and all that white is pure and black is not I mean just something that that is so ingrained in us you know not even about people but about like symbols and metaphors and mythology like all that that white is pure and black is evil I mean so um but when you talked about white supremacy it made me think about um the race to dinners have you seen these um regina um uh Regina Jackson and Sario Reyo who's an Indian American um and they wrote a book about it and it's basically they go to dinners with white women you know a white woman reaches out to them and says we want to do this and there's usually you know six to eight ish and they're all typically the white women all typically know each other in some capacity and I just happened to watch a clip of one I don't know a couple of days ago um where Regina Jackson was talking about how if you're a white woman she doesn't trust you you know and how personal these white women were taking that and I'm like can y'all just not like can y'all step out of yourself for a hot second this is not like personal right this is her life experience that white women and we can't be trusted in a lot of places you know and so it's like that just being being able to really look at that for yourself and do your own unlearning deconstruction you know that's why I I talked to my students about when I I've taught social and cultural twice about cultural humility is an inside job it's not an outside I took 18 CE credits on social and cultural no oh and if you're teaching those CEs that doesn't count either no the real people who are doing it fight for it every day struggle sometimes even with an inner sense of whiteness that you know we don't want to take over us right because I feel the pressure too as a counselor educator I feel the pressure to um publish uh publish till we perish and no matter what like this journey to power that we feel like we've lost it's not real because even the people who are tenured I still see them people of color doing research like their life depends on it. 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:20.800 Yeah because that's what they were trained to do at this point. 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.480 So you're never fully free. 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.599 If you play by the rules of the system you're never fully free. 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.480 And I think we've all been tricked into that. 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:43.039 Yeah from the converse like this conversation and conversation I've

had with other counselor educators who are at universities that even after tenure it still feels like you're still on shaky ground in some regards. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:54.079 Even if you have tenure you know that it's especially I feel like with um you know the legislative and governmental attacks on higher education. 00:34:54.480 --> 00:35:22.000 We just had a bill that in North Carolina that went into effect actually this school yeah that said for higher education you could not require a course of any kind of I mean of course they listed all the things any kind of diversity blah blah blah blah blah right and so of course that affects any uh master's counseling program. 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:26.559 And so I talked to a friend of mine who's a counselor educator and I was like what did y'all do? 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:42.400 And he was like oh we had to go through this big long thing to get an exemption and it had to like go to the attorney and then it went up the chain and it's like and we have to so for AppState we now have to every semester submit our syllabus to be reviewed. 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:50.079 Even adjuncts and it's like so it's still yeah even that tenure it still feels shaky. 00:35:50.320 --> 00:36:03.679 And I think Frank what you're talking about is that trying to keep close to that power because that's how you feel like you're gonna survive when in reality it's actually how you're dying as you keep fighting and you keep period. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:13.599 It's a it's an infectious soul wound that is taking you and taking us if we don't stop ourselves and go, wait a minute, what are we doing and what are we doing it for? 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:14.320 Right? 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:20.719 This false sense of security when let's be real any governmental power can take away the tenure process at this point. 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:21.280 Yeah. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.599 They know how to play the game in that too so tenure will never protect you. 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:42.960 The only people the only things that can protect us is each other and we need to do more of that of like really supporting each other and like to stop focusing so much on celebrating ourselves of look at me syndrome I feel like a lot of council educators have look at me syndrome. 00:36:43.039 --> 00:37:10.719 Look at me look at me look at me and that's why I barely post anything because for me I get it I know it's important for us to celebrate our you know things that we're doing right to but at the same time when does it become toxic when does it become um what's the word I'm looking for um oh there's a word that I'm looking for with that like when does it become more about gluttony? 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:56.159 Yeah and that that makes me think about some of the conversations that we've had in the advocacy committee about how do we come back around to um I mean all of it being based in community and not and not this very individualistic, you know, European Western white you know um kind of because at the same time a lot of these people that I'm thinking about in my head, I realize one major denominator when it's getting kind of like self-serving is when they're not even including other people or they're including the same people over and over. 00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:57.519 Like they're not sharing space. 00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:59.840 They're not sharing space with disempowered people. 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.119 They're not going, hey you know what I was presented with this opportunity but let me give it to a student. 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.400 Let me give it to a colleague who has not been recognized yet. 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:30.400 Let me spread the wealth rather than hoard it because we feel like we have to or you get a a white person who then contacts a person of a minoritized to get them together and like oh I did this with this person you know like that's gross. 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:31.519 That's gross to me. 00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:49.119 That's that you're at taking advantage and tokenizing somebody's identity experience whatever to like get your own like oh look how great I am because I authored this article or this book with all these people of color. 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:50.880 Look how what a great white person I am. 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.599 Man goes exactly that is so sad. 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:54.800 So sad. 00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:56.639 I don't have time for that. 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.639 Please share your thoughts too because I want to hear about your thoughts on this. 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:34.159 Of course I just wanted to say I mean that's just free emotional and intelligence related labor right where it's like well let me again just a pattern let me build my success off the backs of people minoritized identities but a lot of times in these positions they don't even get comped right there's no compensation there's really not much recognition either right so tip let's go back to if it's a textbook for example typically like the authors aren't really recognized like right to the extent which the editors are or we're not even getting really comped for writing a chapter or whatever it might be. 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:47.519 So even just kind of going into that like again it's free labor and you're profiting off that free labor as a white person or as someone from dominant identity maybe even like faculty versus student for example could be an opportunity there too. 00:39:47.679 --> 00:40:03.760 So um yeah I think those are all really important points and even kind of just going back to what we were talking about just community and like the conversations we've had on advocacy committee and social justice as a whole I think again a lot of times counselors really do have that look at me syndrome. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:18.639 And I think that's when it can become really harmful when people show up to leadership spaces or important community spaces and that

space isn't being shared, that brave space isn't being created where people are being included. 00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:26.639 And I've seen that happen so many times where that's when it starts to become harmful where it's like okay like maybe I don't belong here. 00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:35.199 Maybe the space isn't for me maybe activism isn't for me because I haven't done it in such a way that this person is saying that it has to be done as well. 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:49.039 And that's when we start losing people who have all these strengths, all these capabilities um so much they can actually bring to the field and activism as a whole because no one's really like advocating for them to do that work. 00:40:49.199 --> 00:41:06.320 So yeah which makes me think I mean it makes me think about so many things even within our own system and how you know again like if you're going for tenure it's so important if you're the first person listed on an article or a presentation that's so gr gross. 00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:07.360 Why? 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:18.639 Why why is that a thing you know and so how about if you're a white person say no I'm not I'm gonna be the last person listed. 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:21.920 I want all my I mean why not do that? 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.519 Because look as a white person you already got privilege somewhere else. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:38.159 Like you know or look one thing we did so Sage NC when we would present we just all agreed if you're putting it on your C V, you're the first author. 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:44.400 And we just swapped it up and it's like I don't care I truly don't care because I'm not a counselor educator. 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:45.599 I'm not going for tenure. 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:46.800 I don't care. 00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:55.519 But I was working with faculty who were and we just all agreed yeah if it's on your CV put yourself as the first author. 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:56.320 Great. 00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:01.920 100% and I think there's a thing about people feeling threatened about their power. 00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:24.480 I see that a lot in um white oppressive like faculty and for example um where anything that you do so like for example the the trend that that I like to do of like calling people future doctor and like using their doctor names before they get it there's even POCs sometimes who get offended by that and they go well no like you shouldn't be doing that and I'm saying going why? 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:38.400 They're on their way to us what is the problem why can't we encourage them and allow them to dream their way here are we that are how are we feeling security wise about our own status? 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:39.920 Like why is it about us? 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:41.519 Why is it about us? 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.000 And why do we make so many things about us? 00:42:45.039 --> 00:43:18.800 Well and why why do we feel like it it it's giving like scarcity mindset to me that kind of the chatter around um you know the healing practices and you know how licensed people are so much better than peer supports, coaches, qualified professionals and I'm like, okay, let me tell you something I worked in community mental health I've seen licensed people that I think how the fuck did you graduate from a master's program? 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:32.800 And then I've had qualified professionals that are like I would give you a master I would just give you a master's degree because of the amount of knowledge and experience and just pure wisdom that you bring to the field. 00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:36.800 It's like what status isn't everything. 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:52.239 We are so misled by this idea of status we are misled by the idea that if I do so much that it proves I am more experienced than you it proves that I am better than you it means that I'm above you in some way and that is absolutely not true. 00:43:52.559 --> 00:44:01.039 Yeah and then kind of pushing like people with a global majority minoritized identities in our field to achieve that status right to have Any value. 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:10.239 Um, I think that's just so beyond harmful where it's like you have to like work consistently to like beat that status quo, reach it to actually have any value. 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:22.400 And then um, I've known like, I mean, I've seen many leaders that are people of the global majority who've now kind of fallen into that performative trap because now you're kind of all the way up here and you've kind of forgotten where you know you've come from. 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:30.559 And maybe people have earned it, of course, but at the same time, like don't forget to advocate for others to kind of reach that position as well. 00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:32.480 100% on that. 00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:33.039 Go ahead. 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:33.760 Oh, go ahead. 00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:36.960 Oh, and I was just um adding to that. 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:45.599 I think a lot of times, especially given that we are one, in a helping profession for thinking about counseling and clinical work as a whole, but two, we're also educators, right? 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:53.199 And so shouldn't our whole like moral compass be centered around uplifting people, around educating people and kind of bringing them up. 00:44:53.440 --> 00:45:06.880 Um, and so I always get, you know, baffled, really, where I'm just like, why are these like for lack of a better word, why are these politics kind of at play where it's like, why do you have to bring someone down to elevate your own status? 00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:08.480 I just don't think that's necessary at all. 00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:11.599 And given the field that we're in, it's just I feel like it's just immoral. 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:17.519 Well, yeah, we know that education is so important, that's why they keep attacking it. 00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:18.320 Yeah. 00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:21.760 You know,

that's um, I mean, we know that. 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:28.880 Um something else you were saying about um Oh, it's gone. 00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:45.119 Um but yeah, that the breaking down of other people, um, I feel like that that also is why I'm so drawn to us coming back to working in community and taking care of each other. 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:57.280 And that no way of I don't know, education, healing, being a counselor is no better than another way. 00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:58.960 It's just different. 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:04.559 You know, I mean we even see it in like the hot new things that come out, right? 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.159 That there's a higher even within that there's a hierarchy, it feels like. 00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:12.480 You know, that EMDR is like the gold standard for people with trauma. 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:24.400 I've met plenty of clients that EMDR either didn't work for them or made them worse because the counselor didn't know what they were doing, you know, or the hot one now is IFS and my my poor therapist. 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:25.679 God love them. 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:35.280 They talked to me three times about IFS and I finally said, look, um, no shade. 00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:52.880 Um, but I just don't I just don't jive with IFS, it feels like the hot new thing, and you know, I just whatever the dude's name that does IFS, he wasn't the first one to talk about parts. 00:46:53.199 --> 00:47:01.440 You know, I talk about parts in my shamanic work, like, you know, I just and he's a white dude. 00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:04.320 I just, you know, and I'm preaching it. 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:10.719 And I told I mean I did tell him because it there is some overlap between my spiritual work and parts work in IFS. 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.159 And I said, I'm I'm willing to try it, you know, because of the overlap. 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:21.199 Um uh, but I'm definitely not a cheerleader for IFS. 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:30.559 And so even in that, like even in the stuff we use in our own field, it feels like there's a it's gotta be evidence-based, it's gotta be research, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:34.960 Which all that is good to some degree, because we don't want to be doing harm, right? 00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:47.760 And there can be things that are just effective, if not more effective, for folks that maybe aren't quote unquote evidence-based, you know, or things insurance will pay for, right? 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:51.119 And NASA too, council educators do this to each other too. 00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:58.800 That evidence-based this term, I think, is being misused and abused by people who want to feel more powerful than other people. 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:07.360 I've noticed council educators do that to each other, where if you're not liked in the field and they don't want to see you rise up, oh, that's not evidence-based. 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:09.840 But qualitative research is evidence-based. 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:11.039 It doesn't always have to be quant. 00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:14.400 And even if you try quant, oh, those numbers aren't high enough. 00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:17.199 But they often excuse the work of others, right? 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:30.079 So, for example, we have no psychometric properties on how effective, like um Freudian's version of psychoanalysis was, but we still teach it like golden standard. 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:39.199 Yes, there's been research on psychodynamic right all the way through, but why are we still so obsessed with teaching about stuff with history? 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:42.480 History that there's nothing out there on that. 00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:43.920 Yeah. 00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:45.199 I'm sitting here going, what? 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:46.800 Or the research is outdated. 00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:49.039 But they want to follow it. 00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:51.760 And what you're trying to do is not right. 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.519 If you're trying to advance the future somehow, and your ideas differ than other people. 00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:59.679 I noticed that a lot. 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.960 And I'm going, ew, like, don't do that to break people down like that. 00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.480 Like, all types of research is evidence-based, right? 00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:11.440 So the quants who are listening and getting some heart murmurs right now, I'm so sorry. 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:14.800 Um, but you know, it's mixed. 00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:15.920 There's room for all of us. 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:16.159 Yes. 00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:18.320 Qual is just as powerful as quant. 00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:22.320 Quant is representing numbers, and I'm more about quality over quantity. 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:23.280 It's literally nanane. 00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:24.559 Qual quant. 00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:26.960 Exactly. 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:30.559 I want words, I want language, I want to hear expression. 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:32.880 Both are valuable. 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:33.760 Both are valuable. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:34.320 Absolutely. 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:36.480 So don't make them compete with each other either. 00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:40.000 Be a mixed girl if you want. 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.199 Slightly. 00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:50.880 I had a thought, um, just for overall conversation, just kind of pops into my head um surrounding, I guess, what we were talking about. 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:58.320 Um, are you and people having certain like statuses and things like that, and what's kind of taboo to talk about in counseling and what's not. 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:10.239 Um, I think one thought that's always kind of sit in my mind is that counselors and counselor educators are really not expressed, like you were saying, Frank, like to kind of share like their core identities, right? 00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:15.199 Um, maybe because they've been challenged in the past and

maybe they just have not been able to be accepted. 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:22.719 So even that just being like, I've heard so many times, even within my own experiences, well, don't confuse the professional with the personal, right? 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:24.719 So don't bring that in whatsoever. 00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:27.920 And I'm just like, in this profession, that's nearly impossible. 00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:30.079 Like you cannot separate the two. 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:31.280 And same with politics. 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:32.400 Like you hear it all the time. 00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:34.719 Don't bring in politics with counseling. 00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:37.679 And I've heard that in practices that I've worked at before. 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.880 Um, and again, just impossible to not mix the two. 00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:47.119 So I think um counseling really like in some ways expects us to be a dehumanized version of ourselves, right? 00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:54.079 So you can't be human, you can't experience emotions, you can't experience traumatic incidents and be still be a good counselor. 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:55.519 And I hear that all the time. 00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:58.719 Or you can't experience all that and be a good activist for other people. 00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:02.159 And I think that's kind of what our conversation just like kind of sparked in me. 00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:04.480 And I'm like, well, that's not okay at all. 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:08.960 And I think that's again the oppression that's being perpetuated in our field. 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:16.800 So yeah, that actually just I really appreciate you saying that because that kind of gave I just had like a a ha moment around counter transference. 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:17.280 Yep. 00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:23.440 Like that, I mean, at least when I was a master student, that was the devil. 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:30.320 Like, if you had counter transference, it was so bad, you gotta immediately stop and get supervision, blah blah blah blah blah, right? 00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:42.000 And I mean, I I think I'm uh there's the part of me that wants to like go a deep dive when we're done here around counter, like where this idea of counter transference comes from. 00:51:42.239 --> 00:52:00.239 Because my gut's telling me it's it's rooted in white supremacy, about just how like you said, how we are it actually is encouraging us almost to an extent to be a dehumanized version of ourselves. 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.960 Like you check your personal stuff at the door. 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:04.320 How is that possible? 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.480 How is that possible when I'm sitting in conversation with another human being who is hurting? 00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:15.440 How how am I supposed to check my personal stuff at the door? 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:19.199 That just doesn't align with me. 00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.400 Now, I'm not saying we throw counter transference out the window. 00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:22.880 No. 00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:26.719 I mean, we need to have boundaries and we need to not sleep with our clients. 00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:31.840 I don't know why that's still a thing, but we still like have to talk about that. 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:35.760 We're saying that because it's still happening a lot and we don't want to see it anymore. 00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:37.280 So stop seeing sleeping with your clients. 00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:40.079 Please, please stop sleeping with your clients. 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:49.760 You know, and it also if we take it too far, I feel like it actually makes us harmful as counselors. 00:52:50.239 --> 00:53:01.760 You know, if it's like I don't know, I can't I'm supposed to be neutral so that I don't have counter transference and the client doesn't have transference. 00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:02.320 No. 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:03.440 No. 00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:06.480 I can't go along with that. 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:09.840 Right. 00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:11.199 Exactly. 00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:19.039 So yeah, that yeah, I feel like that's I need to do a deep dive about countertransference. 00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:20.400 Found out where that came from. 00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:26.000 What's interesting too, oftentimes, is that they only had white people in mind when they wrote that. 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:26.800 Right? 00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:36.159 Because Freud and Adler, I think, were still saying demeaning things about racially minoritized people and gender and sexual minorities. 00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:43.760 So like Adler, even in creating his stuff, it's like, oh, well, being gay is kind of like a diagnostic issue. 00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:44.639 Right? 00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.960 So like there's so many people whose voices are left out because we were deemed as other. 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:55.039 And counter-transference, I think, comes from that lens of like, oh, like, if because we're all equal. 00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:55.840 We're all equal. 00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:57.360 It comes from that standpoint. 00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:00.000 If we're all equal, we're all equal white people, right? 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:03.360 Like, no, it's not just about white people in this field. 00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:06.480 And this is the whole issue as to why white supremacy is a bad thing. 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:19.519 Because it's about that centralized notion that all of us, you know, regardless of race, they use that to justify the continuation of white will always be the norm, you guys will sit at the other table. 00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:20.159 Mm-hmm. 00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:21.440 Yeah. 00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:24.320 Yeah, that white is the norm, white is the standard. 00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:31.599 And I it feels like, at least for me, that's where so much of, you know, we're talking about professionalism. 00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:42.639 Well, yeah, I mean, uh the professionalism has always

been very um white centered, cisgender centered, you know. 00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:53.199 Um, you've got still, you know, in states, you've got laws on the books that black people have to change from the way their hair comes out of their head. 00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:54.960 I'm like, are you kidding me? 00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:56.480 It grows that way. 00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:58.000 Just leave it alone. 00:54:58.239 --> 00:54:59.679 I don't understand. 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:03.599 You know, what if it was a white person who had red hair? 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:06.639 And red hair was considered unprofessional. 00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:09.840 You know, that would never happen. 00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.039 But it's sure happening to people of the global majority. 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:38.000 I mean, that's yeah, and that yeah, it's all it feels like that standard and everything is that's the standard that a so many things are um held to, whether it's like you said, what's evidence-based, what are we teaching in the class, what textbooks are we using, what laws are on the books, like all of that. 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:52.320 And so being able to disrupt that and say, No, actually, I'm gonna use, you know, this textbook, or I'm gonna, you know, whatever. 00:55:53.920 --> 00:56:13.679 That's how structural violence works for sure, too, because I think to like part of what holds us still in racist systems is that people are too scared to let it go, particularly people in power, because the US was built on it, so they have no idea what the rest of the world would look like afterwards. 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:14.000 Yeah. 00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:15.280 And they're scared of that. 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:16.719 And I don't know why. 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:17.599 It's great. 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:43.199 Hello, we talk about humanism all the time, but it's also because we have people who are fear mongering and saying, if you allow diverse people to have rights, then uh trans people are gonna take over your bathrooms and your locker rooms, and they're gonna do this, and like creating so much fear-mongering of the other that's been around since the beginning of systemic oppression, of what black people will do, about what Asian people will do, about what Latin people will do, they're gonna steal your jobs, right? 00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:47.920 There's always something to try and fear monger to avoid future change. 00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:51.840 Future change that is appropriate and inevitable. 00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:54.480 Like we're here. 00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:55.760 Like, what are you going to do? 00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:58.960 Why is that so important to you that we're here? 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:00.960 And they're scared. 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:04.880 I think that's really what it is, but like you're saying the fear mongering where it's like, they're scared. 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.920 We are taking over various positions, right? 00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:19.039 Of power, even, um, and various roles, and you know, people in power with white supremacists, they just don't want to see that because now their power is apparently being taken away, right? 00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:23.440 Um, and I just think the colonizers want to continue colonizing, right? 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:30.480 And just keep us out of important conversations, whether it be in this field, whether it be in the community, whether it be in larger government as well. 00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:45.360 Yeah, that the um the keeping us out keeping folks out of conversations and holding on to power, you know, is is how they survive. 00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:52.400 And so, you know, there's part of me that can have empathy for that, can have empathy of, yeah. 00:57:52.719 --> 00:58:04.480 It it makes sense to me that it would be scary to look at a world being so different from the world you have experienced thus far. 00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:06.159 I can have empathy for that. 00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:09.360 Um I can I think we all should have empathy for that, yeah. 00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:13.119 Because I mean fear is a natural emotion that's really scary. 00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:14.800 Absolutely. 00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:25.519 And you know, I feel like the the and of that is a big and my I love my clients so much. 00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:28.079 They'll talk about I hear you in my head all the time. 00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:34.320 And I'm like, Mo most things have an and, actually, you know. 00:58:34.559 --> 00:59:29.360 Um but the other the behind that and is how how much this is gonna sound so cheesy and optimistic, how much more wonderful would things be if we weren't trying to climb over top of each other and fight and compete and whatever, if it was we just took care of each other and we had community spaces that had healing practices of all kinds and had mutual aid and had affordable ho you know, we had communities that had affordable housing and we had places paying livable wages, you know, and that you know, people had stable housing, and we didn't have communities that are basically food apartheids, you know. 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:34.239 It's like why what why not? 00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:36.800 Like why not do those things? 00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:47.360 Even amongst your fear that, you know, if this person has something I don't well that's not actually what we want to move towards. 00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:50.639 We want to move towards you have it and I have it. 00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:56.480 And that's great, because then we can both live a life worth living. 00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:04.400 Oppressing others isn't going to keep you warm, nor is it going to make you any colder if you shared space. 01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:06.159 We just all want to be warm. 01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:07.119 Mm-hmm. 01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:09.440 Absolutely. 01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:16.400 And it and I feel like if any group of people should get that, it would be

counselors. 01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:22.719 And uh oh, you know? 01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:27.199 We're supposed to, but it's also because of the lack of training, right? 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:31.199 Because we don't centralize, you know, social justice the way it should be. 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.119 Where like social justice is the benevolence that we've been talking about. 01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:37.760 You can't have beneficence without social justice. 01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:39.119 Sorry, not sorry. 01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:40.880 Otherwise, it's fake beneficence. 01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:43.440 It's beneficence towards selective people. 01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:45.840 It's being a polite person. 01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:48.159 Yeah, it's being polite or whatever. 01:00:49.039 --> 01:00:54.320 Yeah, the selective empathy uh is key, I think, there too, right? 01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:58.000 Or like a performative benevolence that you mentioned. 01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:11.599 Yeah, that if and I feel like uh if any yeah, again, if an any group of people would be on their front lines of trying to change things, it would be counselors. 01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:14.559 And that's why I can't get behind that counseling is not political. 01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:15.440 Yes it is. 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:16.719 Yes it is. 01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:22.559 Because we all know about our clients need their basic Marshmallow. 01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:28.960 Our clients need their basic needs met in order to continue to thrive. 01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:45.599 And then when you've got you know, gerrymandering and redlining and you've got people actively working against people having affordable housing and having food and having clean water how what? 01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:47.119 No. 01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:55.280 Yeah, counselors, you ought to be out there advocating for clean water and protesting data centers. 01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:03.519 I mean, it's uh I don't they're I just counseling is political, full stop. 01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:07.679 And they're afraid to give up their comfort, a lot of people. 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:21.199 They're afraid to give up their comfort because of what other white people are gonna think of them, of what their profession is gonna think of them, because we can't admit that our field is still led by intimidating forces of oppression. 01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:26.159 They keep a lot of people going, Oh, I need to I can't do all that. 01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:32.880 Instead, I'm gonna advocate through just research because that's good advocacy. 01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:35.440 That's safe advocacy. 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:43.199 Or I'm gonna see I'm a white therapist and I'm seeing people with a global majority, but I actually don't care about what's happening in the world around you. 01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:54.239 I'm not asking you about how you're feeling when you've seen members of your community hanging from trees or being shot by law enforcement. 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:55.599 I'm just not gonna read it. 01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:58.320 I'm also scared to read that research, that asked. 01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:01.519 I'm also scared to read that research if it's not about people. 01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:03.440 Like, what is this really about? 01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:04.960 Yeah, what's it about? 01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:11.679 Well, and how are you how are you conducting that research? 01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:13.519 Who's in your research? 01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:15.119 Where are you going? 01:03:15.679 --> 01:03:25.360 Are you doing safe research where, you know, you're not going into the other side of town? 01:03:28.159 --> 01:03:31.280 Are you including who are you including in your research? 01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:36.719 Yeah. 01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:38.960 And then how are you framing that? 01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:40.719 So how are you framing these responses? 01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:47.760 Let's say you are working with marginalized communities, now you get this data, how are you actually interpreting it so it's not harmful? 01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:50.480 Yeah. 01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:57.519 Well, yeah, I mean it's just like you know, again, how are how are you interpreting it, how are you writing about it? 01:03:57.679 --> 01:03:59.039 Because language is important. 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:07.599 And I, you know, I used to use the term food desert, you know, um, because I thought that's yeah, that makes sense to me. 01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:08.639 But I was listening to Dr. 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:15.519 Raquel Martin, who is phenomenal, to follow her, and I've been to several of her trainings with Dr. 01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:22.079 Han Ren, and they talk about, you know, food desert a desert is a naturally occurring environment. 01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:23.760 This is a food apartheid. 01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:28.960 Like you're actively trying to get rid of a group of people. 01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:30.639 That's apartheid. 01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:32.079 I was like, whoa. 01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:34.400 Blew my mind. 01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:35.679 But there but she's right. 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:48.079 I mean, she's right in that when you have communities that don't you've got people who don't have access to grocery stores, fresh produce, locally grown stuff, that's a that's food apartheid. 01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:49.360 That's not a food desert. 01:04:50.239 --> 01:04:53.280 And even how hard it is to actually get those resources, right? 01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:56.079 The boots that you actually have to go through. 01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:00.880 Um, where I think people on the outside don't necessarily understand, like there's a process. 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:08.239 You can't just access these resources, right, by just asking for them because they're built again on deservingness as well. 01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:19.519 So with all this that we've talked about and and these systems that we find, we all find

ourselves in, you know, because just like Dr. 01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:23.199 Jennifer Mullen says, there this is a mental health industrial complex. 01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:24.719 And so we're all in it. 01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:26.559 Like we are all in it. 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:41.039 What what do you feel like are some I mean, kind of some things that maybe we could do, small things, big things. 01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:45.360 I mean, the advocacy committee, we do kind of more bigger things. 01:05:45.920 --> 01:06:11.760 Um for folks who are kind of in their universities, in their clinics, and their agencies, um maybe things you've done that have been successful or ways you've You've advocated or been activist in smaller circles or kind of just some ideas maybe people can kind of think on to see if and see if it's something maybe that they could do. 01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:17.039 I think you can go ahead, Frank. 01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:18.400 I feel like I've been talking a lot. 01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:31.039 No, I mean one thing I'll say and I want you to share is um take more risks so that like oppressed people don't have to take on all of that burden and then be punished for it. 01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:38.800 Like if I had more of that support, like I could have been in a completely different scenario sometimes in my professional environments. 01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:44.800 About just taking those risks. 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:46.960 Um, I would have to agree with that. 01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:54.960 Um, just being one of my pieces of advice too, just like really put yourself out there, especially if you are holding a dominant identity. 01:06:55.119 --> 01:07:03.199 Um, and you do have that power and you do have that privilege where you aren't necessarily being I guess you aren't fearful, right? 01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:09.760 Necessarily of having repercussions to the extent folks who are of minoritized identities would experience. 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:25.360 So if you are in the position, um I would encourage you to really use your platform to uplift these voices or to protect your marginalized peers as well and colleagues, um, as we are doing the work, because I think that is key as well. 01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:28.880 Where right now a lot of people are are under attack, right? 01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:30.800 Especially those with marginalized identities. 01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:35.920 So if you could take that risk, um I think that would really make a lot of a difference. 01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:45.760 Also, don't hoard resources, like share resources with people, you know, and you know what's really funny actually, and this this blew my mind. 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.199 So um when I was in my doctoral program, it was a female student of color who shared this opportunity with me to join CSJ. 01:07:53.679 --> 01:07:55.840 But you know who else was sharing opportunities with me? 01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:58.239 One white woman in my cohort. 01:07:58.400

--> 01:08:04.159 And because of that, I was able to apply for some things, get a grant, like a small grant, etc. 01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:09.360 And it's because the white people, white students were being fed information that the students of color were not getting. 01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:14.079 Um, and that shit happens more often than you think in council education programs. 01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:18.319 So you know who you are out there, change your systems, right? 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:22.319 So that everybody has equal access to opportunities, and don't hoard resources. 01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:29.680 If you are a like high and mighty, fierce person of color who's like above it all or like at the top, right? 01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:42.079 Email your other people, the newer people in the field, and said, Hey, I have no idea what your life aspirations are, but here are compiled resources that I built so that you could be successful in Council Ed. 01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:43.119 Just have it. 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:44.640 I typed it up for you. 01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:47.439 I put a whole bunch in there, like it's all for you. 01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:52.880 Imagine how much of a difference that would make if more of us did that for each other. 01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:56.319 Like when we just show up offering people a plate of food. 01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:02.880 I'd rather have somebody say no thank you than assume that they're not hungry. 01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:07.680 We need to more of that. 01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:14.560 Yeah, we yeah, which makes me think about again that with cultural humility being an inside job. 01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:17.279 Like at some point saying, you know what? 01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:19.279 I don't need any more. 01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:20.960 I don't need any more. 01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:28.560 I don't need any more accolades, I don't need any more positions, I don't need any more grants, I don't need to I don't need any more. 01:09:29.199 --> 01:09:30.239 Here, you have it. 01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:38.479 Not and not in like a cocky, arrogant kind of way, but just in a but let's include you in it, right? 01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:39.039 Right. 01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:41.520 I've had my fill, right? 01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:47.199 And so you know, like with the food, like no, I don't think I need to take leftovers today. 01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:47.840 You take them. 01:09:50.319 --> 01:10:03.760 You know, it and that yeah, and I I feel like yeah, that advocacy and activism uh sometimes goes quietly. 01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:09.760 You know, activism isn't always um out in front. 01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:20.720 You know, sometimes it's the things that we do quietly or that the only people that know about it are us and the person that we talk to or whoever. 01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:27.199 You know, activism doesn't always have to be these big things, it's little things too. 01:10:27.359 --> 01:10:38.560 And so to not discount those, don't discount the um the call you made to the social worker, you know, or whatever that those are important too. 01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:44.239 And that's that's just as much activism as protesting on the street corner. 01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:46.800 Yeah. 01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:56.800 And when you see people victimized as well by oppression, I think back to when I lost my job last year, right? 01:10:57.039 --> 01:10:59.279 And now I'm in a whole new job, which is wonderful, bless. 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:10.479 Um, but when I lost my job last year, the students actually put more effort into advocating for me by writing letters to the higher up people than actual people in counselor ed did. 01:11:10.720 --> 01:11:11.039 Wow. 01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:14.800 And like people in Counselor Ed would just look at you and be like, Are you okay? 01:11:15.439 --> 01:11:16.800 Do you need anything? 01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:22.000 Some council educators had gone out of their way and said, Hey, I may have an opening where I'm at. 01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:23.039 We want you here. 01:11:23.439 --> 01:11:32.319 You deserve a home to be in, you deserve food, because you were literally put out on the street and everybody else was watching from their windowsills. 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:33.119 Yeah. 01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:33.920 Yeah. 01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:37.039 And so, like, I'll always remember who those people were. 01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:40.640 And so I go, Okay, I see you. 01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:49.520 And know that if that ever happened to somebody else, including the people who were at their windowsill or whatever, I would be looking for jobs for them and helping them. 01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:51.760 A hundred percent. 01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:54.159 If that happened to somebody else, because it should never happen to anyone. 01:11:56.640 --> 01:11:56.960 No. 01:11:57.279 --> 01:12:16.159 Well, and that come back to taking care of each other and that um it we're getting out of this mindset that if I give this opportunity to you or if I draw your attention to this or whatever, that means I'm gonna go without, and that's just not true. 01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:18.239 It's just not. 01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:19.760 Will you miss out on something? 01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:21.039 Sure, of course. 01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:22.239 You know. 01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:31.680 Um but I just don't I just don't believe in hoarding things or keeping things to ourselves. 01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:40.960 Because we've been told we've been sold to lie that that's how we are successful and we that's how we grow. 01:12:41.039 --> 01:12:43.840 And I was like, I just don't know. 01:12:44.239 --> 01:12:46.479 I grow when I take care of my community. 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:53.359 And I believe the universe is gonna take care of me if I take care of who I'm called to take care of, which is my community. 01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:00.800 That's just I agree with that so much. 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:11.600 Um, even just

in terms of how we can approach um activism and leadership, just because that's a big basis of what my leadership really is, where it's like just taking care of one another, right? 01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:28.000 Um, you know, if I have certain opportunities that I can send, whether it's newer students, newer professionals, or even like people who just haven't been in these spaces, I will because I think it's just so important to get new people, new voices in these spaces, especially people who have not had that privilege to get in there. 01:13:28.239 --> 01:13:40.319 So um I just really love what you were saying earlier, Frank, where it's like, okay, like, you know, maybe you see someone who's new, whether it's a student, new professional, just have like a list of resources, whatever it might be, and send it to them. 01:13:40.479 --> 01:13:42.479 Um, you know, if it's helpful, like they'll use it. 01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:44.159 If not, then it'll sit there. 01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:55.359 But at least like we've kind of done our due diligence where it's like, you know, I see um newer people coming up in the field and I want to help them now because I have these resources as well. 01:13:55.520 --> 01:14:02.800 So yeah, and that if you if your plate is full, don't keep taking. 01:14:03.039 --> 01:14:03.680 Yeah. 01:14:04.880 --> 01:14:09.520 You know, I if your plate is full, go sit down. 01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:13.840 Let somebody else, you know, because I feel like that's part of it too. 01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:15.279 Yeah, pass it down. 01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:19.600 This is why a lot of us are burnt out in counter ed, too, because we don't stop saying no to things. 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:22.479 And what we actually should have been doing is going, hey, you know what? 01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:24.880 I actually know somebody who'd be really good for this. 01:14:25.039 --> 01:14:32.479 And like, make sure you put somebody who could benefit from these opportunities, even if they're a student, bring them into the fold. 01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:38.479 I think this would be a great opportunity for you to be able to learn, grow, and develop your skills as a leader. 01:14:38.640 --> 01:14:42.800 Like, you can do all of these things because we don't ask for much. 01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:43.840 We don't. 01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:44.720 We don't. 01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:49.520 People who ask us, oh, can you take this on, this on, most of the time they don't look at my CD. 01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:55.520 So if I'm sitting here going, Oh, well, I recommend this person, that should be enough. 01:14:56.239 --> 01:14:57.359 Like, pass it down. 01:14:57.520 --> 01:14:57.840 Yeah. 01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:03.439 And let people learn, let people grow, like, let people eat, like do those things. 01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:03.920 Yeah. 01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:06.399 Stop complaining that you're stuffed. 01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:07.920 Well, and stop complaining that you're not gonna be able

to do it. 01:15:09.439 --> 01:15:09.600 Right. 01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:11.359 You're so burnt out. 01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:19.600 You know, there's a person over here that would be really good for that. 01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:26.880 Or you know, I'm not I'm not able to take that on, but I know somebody who would be a killer at it. 01:15:27.199 --> 01:15:28.720 So here's their information. 01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:31.920 I mean, because again, the opportunities are gonna come again. 01:15:32.960 --> 01:15:44.079 So it's sometimes it's like even talking to yourself of like because I get it, like I get the fear again of that scarcity. 01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:45.439 I get that. 01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:47.760 I feel that a hundred percent. 01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:55.600 And coming back to we don't uh we're not hoarding. 01:15:56.079 --> 01:15:58.479 You know, that's not gonna help us be successful. 01:15:58.640 --> 01:15:59.760 It's gonna kill us. 01:15:59.920 --> 01:16:00.880 So That 01:16:01.199 --> 01:16:01.520 asked. 01:16:01.600 --> 01:16:01.760 Why 01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:04.479 are you sitting there being scared about scarcity when you got heartburn, honey? 01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:08.800 If you got heartburn, you need to hand that plate over because you don't need to be eating no more. 01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:11.039 And don't be worried about scarcity. 01:16:11.199 --> 01:16:13.520 Your body's like, I had enough, please stop. 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:16.800 Listen to your body. 01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:23.119 Um, okay, so my my closing question. 01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:24.960 This is a fun question. 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:29.520 What is on your music playlist right now? 01:16:30.640 --> 01:16:32.159 What are you listening to? 01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:36.560 Okay. 01:16:37.279 --> 01:16:39.279 Um, I think I have a good mix. 01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:41.680 Um, I think Bad Bunny is on my playlist right now. 01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:42.479 Yes. 01:16:43.439 --> 01:16:46.399 He's always on my playlist, so yeah. 01:16:47.840 --> 01:16:48.479 Yes. 01:16:52.640 --> 01:16:53.520 Not you, Frank. 01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:54.239 He's on your playlist. 01:16:54.399 --> 01:16:55.199 Oh, it's my turn. 01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:56.159 Oh gosh. 01:16:56.319 --> 01:17:03.520 You know, as a queer person, you know, you've screwed me over with this question because you know I've got so many divas on my own playlist. 01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:05.039 Like, what you mean? 01:17:05.119 --> 01:17:06.640 Just like music on my playlist. 01:17:06.800 --> 01:17:09.520 First of all, I think of Insravia, you're gonna laugh at this. 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:11.119 I've told you this before as well. 01:17:11.279 --> 01:17:21.039 So Rain on Me by Lady Gaga and Ariana is always on my playlist because I imagine myself as Lady Gaga singing, and then I imagine Sravia as Ariana Grande singing. 01:17:21.279 --> 01:17:26.159 Like, that's all I think about in my head as we're doing the choreo to like a music video in

my head. 01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:28.800 That's like all I'm thinking about when I hear that song. 01:17:29.039 --> 01:17:32.399 Cause like legit, like that just power is so dope. 01:17:32.560 --> 01:17:39.760 And and that's why, as well, Sarabia, you're one of those people that I love pouring into because I want to see you and others have it all. 01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:40.239 For sure. 01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:47.600 Like, if something ever happened to me, you're the next supreme, like, ready to go and like do things right. 01:17:47.920 --> 01:17:54.239 Because I know it's in your heart to do that, and like I don't just give stuff freely to everybody, I get that. 01:17:54.640 --> 01:18:00.479 And if I know it's one of our people who can do some real good, just give it to them. 01:18:00.640 --> 01:18:01.199 Give it to them. 01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.039 Why is that so hard? 01:18:03.680 --> 01:18:06.079 I share, offer her one biscuit. 01:18:06.159 --> 01:18:06.560 Damn. 01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:08.960 Seriously, one hot biscuit. 01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:10.880 Yes, yes. 01:18:11.279 --> 01:18:12.640 At least, yeah. 01:18:12.880 --> 01:18:19.920 I feel like we at the CSJ conference we need to find a karaoke place because I feel like I need to see that in person. 01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:21.359 I need that. 01:18:23.439 --> 01:18:24.000 I'd be down. 01:18:24.399 --> 01:18:25.439 I would be that. 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:29.199 And of course, RuPaul, you know, RuPaul's music is always living for me. 01:18:29.359 --> 01:18:35.279 I always listen to ASMR, cake and candy, um, the Queen Dall of it. 01:18:35.359 --> 01:18:43.520 Because it's such feel-good music that you can imagine yourself walking down the runway to just to remember how special you are and how important you are for just being you. 01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:45.359 Forget about all the other stuff. 01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:49.119 Literally, we are just born naked and the rest is drag. 01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:51.039 Like, RuPaul was very right about that. 01:18:51.279 --> 01:18:51.920 A thousand percent. 01:18:52.159 --> 01:18:55.039 Um, so I'm just sitting here going, like, let's just have a good time. 01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:59.359 Let's just have a good time, let's just be us and let's celebrate that. 01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:00.560 Yes, 100%. 01:19:01.279 --> 01:19:01.680 100%. 01:19:02.399 --> 01:19:08.000 Man, I have I have so much I have such random things on my playlist. 01:19:08.079 --> 01:19:08.640 I can't. 01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:11.760 I mean, of course, Melissa Etheridge is always at the top. 01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:14.479 I mean, she's just like, oh my god. 01:19:15.039 --> 01:19:16.239 I just can't. 01:19:16.479 --> 01:19:17.680 I just can't. 01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:23.840 Um, so she, I mean, she's definitely um always part of the playlist. 01:19:24.079 --> 01:19:33.840 Um I and I mean I grew up in the 80s, and so I love some Aerosmith, poison, like all that. 01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:42.319 Um, and

then some really cheesy stuff like Holland Oates and Rick Astley and uh, of course, Hart and Dolly Parton. 01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:43.520 She's on my playlist. 01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:48.399 Um, yeah, so quite quite a mix, quite a mix of stuff. 01:19:48.479 --> 01:19:50.800 So this podcast episode is for you, Dolly. 01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:51.600 Friday. 01:19:52.640 --> 01:19:56.479 Totally I wouldn't throw me a thousand dollars while I up there to do. 01:19:56.880 --> 01:19:57.520 Oh man. 01:19:57.760 --> 01:20:04.159 If you so I listen to this woman, her name's Monty Mater, and she I follow her on all my socials. 01:20:04.319 --> 01:20:14.560 She is um an activist, uh musician, and she did she has a podcast called Flippin' Tables, which I love because that's my favorite story on Jesus. 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:20.560 And she did an episode, I think it was almost two hours, about Dolly Parton. 01:20:20.880 --> 01:20:22.319 Oh my gosh. 01:20:22.560 --> 01:20:34.000 I mean, I knew Dolly Parton was a one of a kind human being, but my gosh, she really breaks it down from like where she was born, how she grew up, all the things that she's done. 01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:35.119 Oh my god, it's phenomenal. 01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:36.079 So you gotta listen to it. 01:20:36.159 --> 01:20:36.800 It's so good. 01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:37.920 It's so good. 01:20:38.399 --> 01:20:43.119 Really quickly as well, when I said the Supreme comment earlier, that's just a reference to Kevin. 01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:48.239 We do need to abolish hierarchies because truth be told, like, we actually are all supremes, like together. 01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:51.520 Um, and that doesn't take away from another person or whatever. 01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:56.079 Like, nobody is just greater or inherently greater um than somebody else. 01:20:56.239 --> 01:20:57.520 That's bullshit. 01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:00.000 So we're demolishing that bullshit. 01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:00.960 Sorry, Kevin. 01:21:01.359 --> 01:21:02.159 Sorry, Kevin. 01:21:03.439 --> 01:21:09.039 We all have our talents, we all have our gifts that spirit has given us, and we need to use those. 01:21:09.199 --> 01:21:12.399 My talents are not gonna be the same as either one of y'all. 01:21:12.880 --> 01:21:17.600 We may have similar ones, but we're gonna have ones that others don't have. 01:21:17.680 --> 01:21:19.680 And we can't do this without each other. 01:21:20.159 --> 01:21:20.479 No. 01:21:21.039 --> 01:21:21.359 No. 01:21:21.920 --> 01:21:22.720 We can't. 01:21:22.960 --> 01:21:23.760 We can't. 01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:25.600 Well, I really appreciate y'all. 01:21:25.760 --> 01:21:27.279 Love you both so very much. 01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:31.760 I'm so glad y'all were my first episode because y'all are amazing. 01:21:32.159 --> 01:21:35.760 And yeah, all the stuff will be in the show notes. 01:21:35.920 --> 01:21:39.520 And yeah, thanks for a great chat today. 01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:43.520 Keep thriving and slaying, my queer queens who are listening. 01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:44.239 Yes. 01:21:44.560 --> 01:21:45.119 Absolutely. 01:21:45.279 --> 01:21:46.960 And thank you so much for having us, Angela. 01:21:47.039 --> 01:21:47.600 This is amazing. 01:21:48.159 --> 01:21:49.039 We love you, Angela.