บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Keeping Love at the Center

Divisions that we're experiencing, not only in our broader culture but in the church, reveals about our spiritual condition. 00:07:58 S2: Well, you know, the Lord Jesus says this by this all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another. That's the gospel according to John, verse 13. Uh, chapter 13, verse 35, Jesus is saying to us, Chris, that unsaved people, fallen people, people outside of Christ have a means of discovering something significant about Jesus. And it's through the spirit empowered love of the church, the spirit and power and love that we have for one another. Jesus says, if we actually are putting spirit and power and love into practice in our relationships with one another, that that is an apologetic that is so powerful. Yes. That points people to Jesus. 00:09:11 S1: Now, let me just jump in right there because I think that that's true. Obviously, the Bible argues that. Would it be going too far to say that our, uh, our ability to do that or, or that being demonstrated in our lives is this love flowing through us, uh, to us and through us to others is also a test of our relationship with God. 00:09:39 S2: Sure it is. Sure it is. In fact, and it's a a critical test. It's a, um, uh, it's a central test, in fact, John. John does not write. And you know this, Chris, in terms of shades of gray, it's either this or that. 00:10:01 S1: Yeah. Black or white. Yeah. That's right. He's right. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. 00:10:06 S2: Yeah. Right is wrong and wrong is wrong. And he says, he says that and and he says that um um that um the one who does not love does not know God because God is love. And John is saying that if a person doesn't have one twinkle of spirit and power, love and his or her life, that person is not saved. And that is that's, uh, that's a message that the church needs to hear. In fact, I think it was Martin Lloyd Jones and one of his sermons was, was preaching about this very issue when he was saying, you walk in church and some people are mean, some people are cantankerous. Uh, they're, they're never friendly, they're never kind. And you're raising the issue about whether they actually know the Lord Jesus Christ. 00:11:08 S1: Yeah. I, I've heard of churches like that. I've, I've never seen a saint that that behaves that way. Doctor Neely, I have heard rumors. I've heard rumors. But let me say on a serious note, uh, if if all that you've just said in the introduction to this conversation is true, then I would venture to say that what we have before us in the aftermath of this election and in, uh, the precursor to all of our social interactions this holiday season is a great big test. We got an opportunity that can demonstrate the presence of Christ in our lives, and the difference that the Holy Spirit makes in a person's life. Or we can look and sound no different than the world around us. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation. We're going to take a break. The book is entitled A Love to Live By. When we come back, I'm going to talk to Doctor Neely about how this book gives us guidance on how to navigate difficult relationships. We all have those relationships, the people that seem to get under our skin more than anyone else. Uh, those difficult souls that don't seem to be agreeable, uh, always seem to be on the opposite side of our opinion, or maybe even the opinion of, uh, those within your family. And now you have tension. How do you navigate that? Doctor Neil is going to let us know all of this. All of this can be found at our website. radio.org. I pray that you would go there. Order your copy today. Of a love to live by. Stick and stay. Much more to come. Next up on equip. Only about 1 in 10 Americans see evangelicals as hopeful. Doctor Joel Stoll says it's time to change that. In this light of mine, he reminds us that our hope isn't in politics or elections. It's in Christ. And when we let our light shine through simple good works, a watching world just might ask why? Request your copy with the gift of any amount to equip, call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks phone number 8775675. It's (877) 548-3675. How can Christians, uh, become people whose lives are defined more by the love of Christ than by the political and cultural divisions of our day? Um, I am looking at a wonderful book written by Doctor Winifred Neely that I think is a handbook for how to demonstrate the difference that Christ makes in a person's life in a very tangible and real way. It's called a love to live by rediscovering agape love in Scripture. Um, I am very much interested, uh, Doctor Neely and, um, this whole concept of loving your enemies, loving your enemies, um, uh, there is a, uh, a, a challenge, a huge challenge with that. But yet I believe this is what makes Christianity so distinct and by the way, so attractive, but yet so impossible apart from Christ. What makes loving your enemies uniquely Christian? 00:15:01 S2: Well. You will not find that anywhere else other than from the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, when he gave the commandment in his message. Sermon on the Mount. 00:15:19 S1: Mhm. 00:15:20 S2: The common thinking, even in Israel at the time, was that hatred for enemies was normal and expected. Jesus says, you have heard. You have heard that it was said that you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. Now, the Bible didn't say that, but that was the common thinking that had been popularized, um, through, through, through the teachings of the era. Jesus comes along and says with authority, but I say to you, love your enemies and see what's happened. Chris, I think that we have become so familiar with the Bible, uh, that sometimes the radical, subversive, disturbing nature of what Jesus said is lost on us. I can just begin to imagine what the people were thinking when they first heard that. Uh, pray for love your enemies and pray for those who despitefully use you. And then

the Lord begins to use God's ways and providence to make the point. He talks about how he causes his sun to rise on the good and the evil. He sends rain on the just and the unjust so that God, in terms of his love. Loves everybody. It does not mean that he approves of everything because he's holy, but he loves all people. And Jesus is saying to us that we are to model God's ways of providential love and our relationships with all people, including enemies. And as I've said before, hatred for any human being is off limits for the child of God. And that is a distinctive Christian principal exemplified perfectly in the Lord Jesus Christ. Now I realize this complex, you know. You know, I've said a lot there. Uh, but. 00:17:47 S1: Now, what would you say to the person who says, Doctor Neely, shouldn't I be angry? Shouldn't I hate the the fact that there's so many people doing so much evil? The person who's abusing others, the person who is, uh, willfully lying. The person who's cheating and robbing and stealing, uh, should not be angry about those things. What would be your response? 00:18:12 S2: Well, I think there is such a thing as holy anger. The Lord Jesus does say, be angry and sin not. Let not the sun go down on your wrath, and neither give place to the devil. But there's a difference between holy anger and righteous indignation and sinful anger. Holy anger always attempts to heal. Uh. Sinful anger always destroys in the final analysis. And so, uh, you know, as I was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned that, uh, you know, sometimes we have people in our own families that can become an enemy. I mean, they do things that hurt us for sure. Yeah. Well, you know, that was somebody, Chris, that I could not say this person's name for two years. Yeah. I couldn't even say the person's name. And I was revising the chapter on loving enemies in the Spirit of God spoke to me and I got on my knees and I prayed for this person's, um, uh, repentance. I pray that, uh, that God would touch their heart. Have they heard a lot of people? Absolutely. They didn't make me angry in a righteous sense. Absolutely. Will we ever be reconciled this side of heaven? It doesn't seem likely, even though forgiveness at some point may be extended. So I talk about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, which is also another another big issue here. It's not an easy issue. It's not a call to be naive. It's not a call to be unwise, but it is a call to have a love posture toward other human beings, because hatred of another human being, frankly, is murderous. 00:20:06 S1: All right. Now, this is something that we need to hear as Christians, and something that far too many of us are going to be turned off by. And the reason why is because we're in a day and age that I think hatred of our enemies is being normalized. And even further, I think it's actually, uh, being virtualized. And what I mean by that is that it for some, appears to be more virtuous, to

be angry and to want to eradicate our enemies, to get them out of the way, uh, than to reconcile, forgive, heal. And, uh. And yet I appreciate your honesty in both upholding the clear teaching of Scripture and yet being honest and real about how difficult this is to walk out. I want to give you a scenario that I recently faced, and I'd love to hear your response. Um, recently my wife was in conversation with a young woman who was highly offended by the, the Christian teaching of forgiveness and redemption, and she shared how she had been abused. Uh, she had been abused by, uh, a parent and she had been abused by a youth pastor when she was young. And she was told, hey, you need to just forgive them and move on. And, uh, and, and she found that to be, uh, very detrimental for her own heart. The older she got, the more insane it sounded to her that she would be advised as a young girl to forgive those who were, who were abusive. And so she's walked away from the Christian faith because of the doctrine of forgiveness and, and, and redemption as she understands it. What would you say? 00:22:05 S2: I would say to her, do not conflate forgiveness with reconciliation. Those are two different things. In other words, uh, some things that people have done to us Are so egregious and so painful that even though we may extend for giveness, it does not mean that we have to be reconciled and be in fellowship with an abuser. I believe those are two different things. And I think this is where the where the where the church gets into trouble because we conflate things that that that ought to be separated. And so that's what I would say to her. You, you can, you can forgive. You should forgive. But at the same time, we're not expecting you to be reconciled with a father or a mother that has molested you or sexually abused you. We're not we're not expecting that. Certain things. Chris will not be reconciled until we get to heaven. You know, there's an interesting scene in the Lord of the rings where. Where Frodo Baggins is actually, uh, he was stabbed in the shoulder by one of these these beings. And years later, Frodo says to Gandalf, it still hurts. 00:23:53 S1: MM. 00:23:53 S2: Years have passed. And at the end, he gets on the boat, which is a metaphor for going to heaven. And that's where he's going to finally, finally find healing and the healing. And there are some things I don't believe that we will. We can move on. We can experience God's grace. But certain things will not be settled until all of us step foot on the shores of glory. And that's a reality that we need to recognize. 00:24:24 S1: I love that you said that and you responded that way. I also would just submit to anyone whose heart is struggling with the same question that accountability does not violate love. The desire to see accountability, certainly the desire to prevent an individual who has acted harmfully recklessly immorally from harming other people. Uh, the the, the, the desire for that type of justice is, uh, is a legitimate, God given desire. It is, it is not a violation of love. We can pursue accountability while still walking in love and forgiveness. And I pray that those who have perpetrated abuses would be brought to justice to prevent pain from happening to others. But we also have to understand, uh, the fact that we are sinners in need of forgiveness. That's foundational to this. I want to talk to Doctor Neely about working through forgiveness and love within our own hearts. And how do we love difficult people? Doctor Neely takes that up in his book, A Love to Live By. You can order your copy@equip.org. That's equip radio.org. Seems like we live in a time that is marked by unforgiveness, anger, hatred for enemies, uh, vitriol, divisions. And yet we as Christians have one sterling commandment, and that is to love others as God has loved us. We are called to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. We are also called to love our neighbors and maybe toughest of all, love our enemies. All of this, all of this is central to the Christian gospel, but yet impossible apart from God. That's why I thought it'd be good for us to have a conversation about it all with Doctor Winfred Neily, who's written a marvelous book perfect for our times. It's called A Love to Live by rediscovering agape love in Scripture. I want you to go to our website, equip radio.org to get your copy. That's equip radio dot ORG. We'll get you a copy and we will send it right over to you. Uh, if you go there, you can order, uh, let's go to Grant, who's listening in Orlando. Hey, Grant, thank you so much for listening. What's your question for Doctor Neily? 00:27:14 S3: Um, yes, it's been a verse in Matthew. Um, and this is about the caller who said that there was a person, I think it was you actually, who was saying the story about the woman who had a problem dealing with the doctrine of forgiveness. Well, yes, she was abused when she was a child, and I had a similar problem. And I struggled with that too. But the way that I understand the verse that I'm talking about, it's where it says, um, it would be better for those who offend one of these little ones who believe in me. If a millstone were hanged about their neck and they were cast into the depths of the sea. 00:27:44 S1: Mhm. 00:27:45 S3: So what that voice, what that verse tells me is that there's going to be eternal justice. And when it says better, were it, it means prior to what they did, if they had died prior to what they did, they'd be better off. So God's saying, there will be eternal justice for those who offend one of these little ones who believes in me. So what that does is it gives me comfort knowing that there's eternal justice. I don't have to worry about the forgiveness. God is going to take care of that. I lay it at Jesus's feet. It's up to him. Then once I let go of it, the event, everything, then I'm free from it. It's like it never happened to me. Now it happened to Jesus and he's

going to take care of it. And that's what gives me comfort. 00:28:22 S1: Well, I appreciate you giving us a call, Grant. Uh, thanks for being honest and vulnerable, and I hope that many who are listening can resonate with what Grant just said. Doctor Neely, your thoughts? 00:28:37 S2: Well, you know, I agree that God Himself will right all wrongs and no one escapes, even if they think they do, from the judgment of God. And yet, Chris and I agree, God, there will be some people who will be lost for all eternity. 00:29:06 S1: Yeah. Yeah. 00:29:07 S2: And I and and to be honest with you, I, I think about that. Think about that for a moment. A person will be lost for all eternity if they reject Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. I. It seems to me that hell is going to be a place of isolation. There will be no fellowship there. Each individual will be alone in a. A resurrected body that's suited for eternal punishment without relief. That is an awful destiny. It's terrible. Yeah, yeah. And I frankly wish that on no one. And so I think this is one of the reasons why Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies. We want to see them come to know Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. We want to see them have a change of heart. We desire God's best for them. And again, it doesn't not mean That we approve of everything that people do. It doesn't even mean that everybody is going to trust Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. I don't believe that from what I the way I understand God in Scripture. I don't believe that God delights in eternal punishment. I believe it's it's it's his strange work, but he's a holy God, and he respects our agency so much that he will allow men and women not to choose him and to suffer the eternal consequences of damnation and judgment for not doing so. But that wakes me up at night. It breaks my heart. It it I'm disturbed. It disturbs me when I think about. And moreover. Moreover, our very testimony as Christians who call upon the name of Jesus. If I can say it with as much compassion as I can muster, is not what it ought to be. The church has made decisions that have hurt the cause of Christ throughout history, and it's time for us to recognize that. And I ask God to do something fresh in our own day to bring about revival and renewal in the church and awakening among among lost people. 00:31:52 S1: Phone number is 8775675. That's (877) 548-3675. Uh, Doctor Neely, I would agree with you. I think that as we look through the annals of Christian history, there seems to be this, uh, circular reality of opportunities for us to demonstrate the difference that Christ Makes in the face of cultural pressure to live like the world and to respond in a in an ungodly way. And so often we miss the opportunity. And and because of that, we reaped the consequences. But God in his mercy allows those opportunities to come back around again. And I think we're in another one of those moments where we really have an opportunity to demonstrate the difference that Christ makes in the way that we treat our neighbor and the way that we love one another within the body of Christ, household of faith, and even how we love our enemies. But I do fear that if we miss the moment, then what will happen is, um, not only death and damage and destruction, but the loss of Christian testimony and witness. If you were to go back to the 70s, early 80s, the church had broadly a positive view, according to most social reports and polls At that time, the church was viewed positively as a good neighbor, as contributing to in a positive way to the overall culture as being loving people by and large. Fast forward to today. Church is viewed very negatively, and it causes me to wonder how much of that is just wrapped up in the fact that this generation, our generation, has confused agreement with love. Do I have to agree with you in order to love you? 00:33:52 S2: No. And you know, my wife and I have been married for 50 years. Congratulations. And if I agree with Mrs. Neely about everything, and she agree with me about everything. And that was the basis of our marriage, we would be married. 00:34:08 S1: That's right. That's right. 00:34:09 S2: We wouldn't be married today. Yeah. No you don't. You don't have to agree with everything to be committed to someone in love provided. And again, we're not talking about, uh, accepting verbal and physical abuse. Uh, this is not enabling dysfunction. Sometimes we have to show tough love. I have a chapter in the book about that as well. Loving wisely and with discernment. We need to do that in order to love effectively. But it doesn't mean that, you know, for example, that I will agree with how people vote in an election. I'm. I'm deeply concerned about that when I will castigate and criticize or, or or denigrate someone because they exercise their conscience before God to vote in a certain way. Yeah. I need to I think we need to respect that. Uh, and then we can sit down and talk about issues and things that concern us. 00:35:35 S1: Yeah. 00:35:36 S2: Have love and rigorous debate, but we do it in love with a deep commitment to one another. 00:35:43 S1: Yeah, I, I think that, um, there are policies, certainly that we should, uh, strongly discuss because of the implications. All policy matters impact lives. This is why it's important. It's important not just because of how it impact my life, but how it impacts my neighbor. So those who have a disposition that says that, um, man, if I'm going to love my neighbor, I have to do my best to elect officials who are going to enact policies that tend towards human flourishing. I think that you're right to to say that I think what Doctor Neily is arguing is also correct. And that is, man, we can have a rigorous debate on how to best do that. We can have a rigorous debate on how to best navigate these, you know, issues, and to arrive at policies that can ultimately lead to human flourishing. But what we cannot do is

forget we are Christians in in our dealings with one another, and we cannot attack one another, uh, on, on the basis of partisan politics like the cultural world does, or we've lost our witness and testimony. Now, here's what you put in your book. A loveless church hinders the gospel, And I think that this is the point that you're calling us back to. A Christian love and agape love, because by this will all men know you are my disciples. If we are able to love one another. And let's remember the early church was forced to love one another across ethnic boundaries, Jew and Gentile. Geographical boundaries. They were forced to do that over communion that brought together the rich and the poor. Men and women, uh, people from all backgrounds. This is the power of the table. And and because they did it, uh, Christianity flourished. And I believe that would be true in our time as well, if we're able to follow Christ in this type of love. Let's take our final break of the day. The book again, is entitled The Love to Live By. When we come back, I'll ask Doctor Neely how to have those holiday conversations. Uh, some of you are going to be the host family and folks are going to walk through your door, and then it's going to get fun because conversations will start and, uh, disagreements may emerge. But how we show hospitality and love can actually transform a person's life. It might be be the primary tool that God chooses to use to set the stage for the gospel. And so I want you to stick and stay and to have a plan and to be ready. So we're going to talk to Doctor Neely about that and so much more. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks. Here at equip. We want to help you to shine the light of Jesus in a world that often feels dark and divided. Every conversation we share is aimed at helping believers live out their faith with courage and compassion. And when you become an equipper, your monthly support helps us bring biblical truth and hope to listeners just like you all across the country. Become an Equipper today. Call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Time flies when you're having a great conversation with doctor Winfred Neeley. I am so grateful for his wisdom, for the grace that God has given him to think deeply about the topic of topics. The most important topic, I would argue in Christian faith, the topic of love. And so he has written a great book, A Love to Live By. I want to encourage you to get it. More importantly, read it and apply it. Uh, you can find out more at equip radio.org. Doctor Neely. Julie. I couldn't stay on the line, but she caught what a great comment from South Bend, Indiana. She says this. She feels that social media has done immense damage to the church, that there's not a lot of love on social media. What wisdom would you give for Christians navigating that, especially in this cultural moment? 00:40:33 S2: I would say that every follower of Christ should think long and hard before the Lord about how they use their social media post. Yes, it's a great it's a great mechanism, clearly, and it can be quite useful, but it can degenerate into nastiness. It can denigrate into vitriol. And, um, we can use it in ways that do not promote the kingdom of God. 00:41:12 S1: Yeah, yeah. 00:41:14 S2: You know, go ahead. Chris. 00:41:16 S1: I'm sorry. Well, I was just going to say, and and I want to be clear, while your book is not a technology book, a book on, you know, social media and mobile devices and platforms or AI, I do think that the application of this agape love doctrine to our social media interactions can give us great wisdom. Uh, for example, how we interact or even speak of our enemies. I'm just going to give one tip, just one tip as it pertains to how to deal with areas that infuriate you, uh, on social media. And here's the, here's the tip. Be self-deprecating. And what I mean by that is, let's just say there's an area of hypocrisy that you see in our world that you see in your enemies that really infuriate you. One of the best ways to deal with it is by saying or posting about your own struggle with that same hypocrisy. Uh, to be honest and transparent about how difficult it's been for you to walk in love, or how difficult it's been for you not to fall into the same traps of bad thinking or hypocrisy. It's so easy for us to pick out the plank. I mean, the speck in our brother's eyes and overlook the plank in our own eye. And I just think that if we approached a social media criticisms, uh, with an inward looking focus as opposed to an external focus, uh, then I think more people would be vulnerable. More people would say, you know, I struggle with that too. But who among us is going to be vulnerable when we feel like we're being accused? We're being criticized? I also think, Doctor Neely, very few arguments have ever been won. When you got 100 people watching the argument play out in a public sense. 00:43:19 S2: And I don't think. Yeah. No. And that's right. I you know, I think that this text applies. Therefore whether you eat or drink or I might add post whatever you do. 00:43:33 S1: Yeah. 00:43:34 S2: Do all things for the glory of God. And the big question we have to ask ourselves, it seems to me, if I'm going to get on social media and get into an argument or get into some kind of. Discussion. Yeah. The question I'm asking myself is God being glorified in this process? Yeah. Even the way we talk about the failures of people on social media, in my judgment, actually dishonors the Lord Jesus Christ. And I have a question in in my book about, uh, uh, in one chapter that deals with love, covering a multitude of sins, I have a question about posting about the moral failures of people on social media. Does the church draw a line? 00:44:26 S1: Yeah, I think this is an important book. I want to end by referencing one word in the title. We got about 60s left. It is not just a love to know. It's not just a love to read or research, but it's a love to live by. I want to highlight this word live. What practical step? If you could just give us one parting word would you recommend we take to begin to live by love? 00:44:56 S2: Well, I begin each day In prayer, saying to the Lord, Lord, would you grant me the grace and wisdom to love well all those in my sphere of influence? 00:45:12 S1: What a great. 00:45:12 S2: Prayer. Yeah. 00:45:14 S1: What a great prayer. And it reminds you and me of the fact that we can't do this alone. And this is the gospel. The gospel presents this, uh, this, uh, perfect call of how we should live this perfect Christ, this perfect Savior. And yet, recognizing that you and I are imperfect, that we are fallen human beings. That's why we run to his throne for grace not once, but again and again and again daily calling on the Lord to give us the grace to love him more and to love one another more. Uh, Doctor Neely, what a blessing you've been. Thank you. I hope you and your wonderful bride have a great, great holiday season, and I hope many get a copy of A Love to Live By. God bless you, Doctor Neely. 00:46:08 S2: Yeah. Thank you Chris, and same to you, my friend. 00:46:12 S1: Friends. You can find out more and our website equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. And just know that in the days to come, it's our commitment and our joy to help you to have the wisdom to navigate relationships and to point people to Christ with every day of your life. If you're in need of a Savior, why don't you dial this number eight. Eight, eight. Need him? It's eight, eight, eight. Need him until we're together again. Next time. As always. Remember, equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.