บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Rethinking Banter and Behaviour with Andrew Hampton

will eventually start to respect you no matter where their starting point is. You know, and that's what I did as a head teacher. [00:05:08] Um, I was talking to my wife about this just the other day, you know? And if somebody did something wrong and they really crossed a line, because I'd always shown every single pupil massive respect and really kind of looked them in the eye and kind of believed in them when they did something wrong. And I, and I was going, oh wow. [00:05:24] You know what [00:05:25] on earth happened there? They were kind of devastated. They didn't really matter how tough they were. It was really horrible to have me look at them and sh and say, I'm really disappointed now. I think that sounds like I'm, you know, teaching in a nursery school. But actually these 15 year olds were kind of going, ah. [00:05:41] I hate it when you look at me like that. And that was the power that I was able to exert over them and their behavior in, in, in a, you know, using respect in a really, really [00:05:50] positive way. But I think what's often ignored in these schemes is the mutual respect between the pupils. And so that's where my work with both boys and girls is really focused, is getting them to understand that they can change, that they, their daily experience, of course, is about their social connections. [00:06:07] You know, if you ask a child when they come home from school. You know, how was geography? I, I dunno, did we do geography? But I can tell you that Sophie said to me this [00:06:15] and then Josh did that, you know, it's about those social connections. So their daily experience is, is until 90%, it's about how well they're getting on with their mates. [00:06:23] And if they're not, and they are existing in relational culture, which is really not very nice, they're mean to each other, et cetera, et cetera, that this relational, um, practice can focus on that and help them to support 'em. Be nice to each other on a consistent basis. [00:06:40] Yeah. That's so interesting. And I think if you think back a few decades, it was, um, respect is earned. [00:06:44] Yeah. And I think sometimes, um, we need to reframe that, don't we? And just sort of Yeah. Yeah. Give students a chance to, to to be themselves and we show respect to them automatically, you know, as a, as a starting point. Yeah. And you kind of never withdraw that respect ever. Even when they've done the most heinous of things, you're still treating them as a dignified human [00:07:05] being and believing in them and believing that they can better. [00:07:07] And even when they, they literally cross that line and you have to ask them to go to another school or whatever, I would still treat them with complete and utter respect, which I felt. Left everybody in a better dignified space, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And so how do you, how do you evoke that empathy amongst pupils in schools? [00:07:24] How do you make that happen? And I think that's where my work has evolved over the last sort of 10 years of my [00:07:30] headship and into beyond Headship is, is working out what, what is that sort of magic formula? How can you get them to relate to each other in an empathetic way? And it's about relatable exercises. [00:07:42] So I go into schools and I'm working with, uh, y yesterday, day before yesterday, I was working with year four children, you know, and I tend to work with, I know, and it was quite, quite a, you know, I, I thought they were gonna be year five and I was [00:07:55] a little bit more comfortable with that. But actually year four and I work with, so with sort of nine year olds, eight and nine year olds, right through to sort of 16, 17 year olds. [00:08:02] And it's the same with all of them. What you need to do is to find. Things that they kind of go, oh yes, that happens, doesn't it? So let's just take an example of, um, of girls for sake of argument. The thing that, um, I use very early on in my session, which really gets the the debate going and breaks the ice really [00:08:20] well, is just talking about the group sizes that they have for their friendships. [00:08:23] So on the whole, I mean, nothing I say is always universally true, of course, but on the whole, they form friendships in twos, threes, and fours. So they kind of go, yeah, okay, what, what, what are you saying about that? And I say, okay, well, I'm not really saying anything, I'm just kind of reflecting it. So what's the advantages of being in a pair three and a. [00:08:39] Four and off we go. And after about quarter hour, all their hands are going up and they're saying, oh, and this happens. And that [00:08:45] happens. And you know, one of the biggest debates is like, let's say you're in a group of four and you want to have a sleepover or you wanna go out on a Saturday night, but one of you can't make it, do you go And they all start to contribute to that debate and they all start talking about whether you would send them Snapchats or not. [00:08:59] And whether you talk about it on Monday or not. So what we're finding is, is if you just, um, take the lid off. Of the, the daily dilemmas that they experience, which can also just literally be [00:09:10] walking down a corridor and they've got a walk in single file. And would they go front, middle, or back? That's a dilemma that the girls kinda go, oh wow, this, there's a lot to say about this as a huge, and you know, and so off they go and all you are doing is like, I'm not teaching you, I'm not judging you. [00:09:26] That's hugely important. All I'm doing is just holding up a mirror and asking you some key questions. And it's exactly the same for the boys. Ask them the key questions around [00:09:35] banter, around the way they play football, around their online gaming, what they get angry about and they kind of go, wow, you know, this facilitator is really kind of getting us to reflect on stuff that really is, uh, very important and very significant and takes up

an enormous amount of our school day. [00:09:50] And it's really, really interesting to talk about it with each other. Yeah, that's so interesting. Um, and having worked in schools myself for, you know, three decades, I've seen groups [00:10:00] and the group dynamics and how they all interact, um, and sometimes really don't have any empathy for each other. Um, and as I say, it borders into that sort of every. [00:10:09] You know, bit of banta as a victim and, and you see that a lot, don't you? Yes. Yeah. And it's very much, that banter thing is very much a kind of a line. It can be that it actually, everybody is very happy and they enjoy being the focus of banter, but actually, also, as soon as someone starts the banter, everyone's kind of putting their helmet on and going.[00:10:25] [00:10:25] I hope I'm not the focus of this banter because it's horrible. And then it becomes a thing that we relate to each other in a horrible way. That we would never, ever say anything nice to each other. And if you did, you'd be called gay or pussy or some ghastly expression like that, and you kind of think, what are we doing here? [00:10:40] You know, Josh's mother has just died. Can we not muster a tiny bit of empathy? A tiny bit of sympathy. Brit really? Wouldn't it be to say, I'm so sorry. [00:10:50] You must be feeling absolutely terrible. No, we're not gonna do that because that's not who we are. Wow. You know, and it's that sort of fear of showing your feelings, isn't it, as you say, for being called names. [00:10:58] Just because you are in touch with your feelings, it's seen as a very sort of new age, um, you know, transatlantic, uh, thing to do, isn't it? Um, so, so with teachers, how can teachers demonstrate empathy to students without crossing those professional boundaries? Yes. [00:11:15] I think that the, the, the boundaries are there. [00:11:17] Whatever you're doing, aren't they? I mean, you know, and I suppose if you are, like I do, starting to find, uh, ways to evoke the empathy amongst themselves, and then they kind of look at you and kind of go, Ooh, that's really quite insightful. You just have to be careful that they don't kind of latch onto you in some. [00:11:33] In appropriate way. But I don't think that's a problem. I think that, um, it's, it's definitely appropriate to, [00:11:40] to remain empathetic, um, and, and to be empathetic. But yeah, you just have to kind of be careful of the reaction that you might get. Yeah, sure. And of course, teachers only see students for a certain, um, number of hours a day. [00:11:53] Um, we have so much influence. But where do parents come into this picture? I mean, how do you think parents have a natural empathy or is it something they have to learn as a parent? I, I mean, it sounds strange, but I think they do. Um, [00:12:05] and I have conversations with parents, uh, after my parent talks. So I go to a school or yeah, sometimes do online. [00:12:11] And I'm sort of talking to parents about parenting of daughters in particular. Um, and they sort of tell me a story and I'm thinking, sort of saying, what, what should I do? Because my daughter's doing this and she's doing that, and it's, you know, there's quite a conflictual relationship going on between us, and I'm thinking, you're just not seeing it from her point of view. [00:12:27] You know, you are absolutely, really, my [00:12:30] life is this and it's very complicated and it's very busy, and I want her Nita to do this and do that, and you're going, but you're not seeing what her needs are. So just trying to reflect that back to parents, I think does kind of make them stop and think. But it's difficult because. [00:12:44] One of the things that, that the girls say to me is that the parents often say things which are really unhelpful when they're distressed about their friendships. They say, oh, well, you know, make new friends. Or have you tried talking to them? [00:12:55] And the girls are going, ah, you know, it is just you, you make me despair when you say things like that because it just feels like you really don't understand me. [00:13:02] But also, a mother might say, and, and, and I've shared this with girls on a frequent basis, a mother might say, first of all, I know what you're going through. You know, and it feels to me that that mother's perfectly entitled to say that because she is a woman. She was a girl and she did experience friendship turbulence when she was at school. [00:13:18] So she does know what [00:13:20] she, that, what her daughter's going through, but, but the girls kinda say, but she doesn't. She really doesn't. And that whole idea that, you know me, is actually. Uh, confusing and actually just makes me really annoyed because you don't know me, you don't know all the in and out of my friendships. [00:13:34] And nowadays, of course, there's also that sense of you didn't grow up with Snapchat and TikTok, so also you don't even really relate to the way I spend my time and how I [00:13:45] stimulate myself. It's sort of in the cultural domain, so. Yeah. But on the other hand, I think there is a sense in which actually the mother probably does know what she's going through, you know? [00:13:53] And, and so, you know, there's that sort of mismatch, but that's the generational disconnect, which we all have to fight to, to get through. But I do think that, um, a lot of my work is just saying. Let's see it from the kid's point of view. We see education and parenting so much from the adult lens and the [00:14:10] pupil or child lens is just ignored and we kind of pay very lip service to kind of pupil voice. [00:14:16] And I'm going, yeah, but what do you really mean by pupil voice? And now you actually getting into conversations where they are being totally honest with you and with each other, because I just don't think you have the tools to do that. Yeah, that's so interesting. And I think that as adults and educators, we all reflect back on our

own experience and like to sort of pass that on to our [00:14:35] students, but we have no clue what it's like growing up, as you say, with Snapchat. [00:14:38] I've never been cyber bullied. I had a phone call, you know, at six o'clock when my dad said. It's cheap. You can now use the phone, but of course, you know, that experience doesn't have any bearing on a young person's life now when it's just 24 connected. So I think we, we try and help, but we need to, as you say, forget about our experiences and think about their [00:15:00] experiences. [00:15:00] Yeah. Yeah. So imagine you're a teacher and you're in that school and, um, you don't have a head teacher that shows empathy to you because of course empathy works always. Um, so how would you, you know, as a school leader, show empathy to your employees? How can you really model that? If it's going to be sort of a cultural, um, part of your, your school life? [00:15:23] How do you model that? And I'm writing a [00:15:25] book at the moment called How to Run a School, which is very much focused on new and aspirin head teachers. And I've been training people into the independent sector for the last 12 years, and many hundreds of people sort of gone through my online course called Leaning at Independent School. [00:15:37] But it, you know, I talk about independent schools, they're all the same really. In many ways in terms of what leadership is and what it looks like. Uh, you and I have talked a little bit, haven't we, about the fact that some had teachers approaching their interviews and then they get [00:15:50] their interviews and when they get the job, they strangely change and they suddenly become very, very nervous and they kind of feel, well, the buck stops with me, so therefore I need to manage people in this very, um, autocratic way. [00:16:01] And, um, you know, you are, you've got a job and I'm gonna set you a target and all this sort of stuff, and it just doesn't work. We have also talked about the attrition of teachers leaving the profession, and that's turning into a, an ongoing crisis. [00:16:15] And it can be just such simple things, can't it? Of, you know, a look, a smile, a nod in the corridor, you know? [00:16:22] Oh, Mr. So and so. I saw that you did that thing with those kids. I was, I was so impressed by That's wonderful. Fantastic. Thank you. So the gratitude thing. Yes. I mean, I think that. A lot of head teachers would say, yeah, I do that. I do that all the time. But do the head teachers kind of go, maybe share a little bit about their own emotional journey through headship? [00:16:39] [00:16:40] Just in, you know, a professional way, but like, yeah, we're all going through difficult times at the moment. You know, we're all very busy coming up to exams. I can tell you that, you know, there's some stuff going on in my office, and so what I'm doing is making sure I go to sleep properly and go for a nice walk and blah, blah blah. [00:16:52] So just a little bit of opening of like, yes, I'm a human being. I understand what it's like. And also, of course, share their experiences of being in the profession themselves. So, you know, I know it's very difficult when you've got, you know, year nine on a [00:17:05] Friday afternoon. I've done it many times myself. [00:17:06] So you're just showing that you became a head teacher from being a good practitioner and from, um, experiencing that emotional journey of being a teacher and finding ways to remain in, in a sort of coping, you know, way and staying. Thriving, and I wanna share that with you. And when I see somebody who's not thriving as a teacher, I wanna acknowledge that this is not the time to set them a target. [00:17:29] This is a time to [00:17:30] sit down and talk to them and just find out more about their lives, about what's happening in the classroom for them and why perhaps they are going under a little bit right now. And what I can do as a fellow human being. To support them. Yeah, that's so interesting. And I think that, um, we do a lot of work about changing cultures in school and my own research looked at, um, as you say, the attrition of teachers. [00:17:51] And it can be something so simple to fix, but [00:17:55] the, the, the critical thing is that you have to live it. Um, and you have to from the top, absolutely 100% live and believe. The empathy and positive emotions, um, are something that you value. So why do you think some head teachers don't show empathy? What, what's, what's led them to that? [00:18:13] Why are they, why do we get there? Why, why do they, why are they there? And that, you know, that's definitely something I'm sort of thinking long and [00:18:20] hard about as I write the book. Um, another way of. Of saying what you just said, there's like the walk, the talk, isn't it? Uh, and, and it's so important. And I do think there's that sense in which all human beings who are in sort in the working sphere can reach the age of 40, 45, 50 and get to a point in their careers where they're kind of thinking. [00:18:38] So I've got another 2025. Years to go and where do I go? So I, you know, [00:18:45] either I'm just gonna carry on doing what I'm doing. And as I say, there are many, many jobs and professions where this is, this is the same dilemma that you've got at that age. You know, either I just carry on doing what I'm doing for another 15 or 20 years, which feels like, wow, you know, because that feels like a long time to be effectively repeating what I'm doing. [00:19:02] Or I go up into management and leadership and I do that, and so many people choose to do that. When actually perhaps they're not really the right type of [00:19:10] person to do that. That sounds a bit judgy, but I do feel that some people are born leaders and are good at leadership just because of the way something about their nature, you know, and others aren't. [00:19:23] I am the youngest of five boys in my family. So it's, it's kind of strange that

it ended up, you know, I'd like to feel like I am and was a good leader and definitely won lots of [00:19:35] prizes for it. So, you know, I feel validated in that way, but you would expect perhaps the youngest of five boys not to be like that, but, but that's not the case, you know? [00:19:43] So I think there is something about being a born leader now, if there is some element of leadership in you. You then need to train. And I did lots of training as well. I did my, um, ma and I did my MPQH and all that sort of stuff. But going back to sort of, you know, why do people end up like that? I think, as I say, they're just not [00:20:00] emotionally as well as professionally prepared. [00:20:02] And again, I think that's where I'm gonna be working very, very hard in the book to say, you know, you are going, going to get anything and everything thrown at you as a head teacher, including a death of a child and suicides of staff, and all of these really, really challenging moments. Are you. Robust enough to take that on the chin and work your way through it and lead an entire community that may be in [00:20:25] really grief stricken, you know, I mean, imagine what it's like to be the head teacher of Bancroft right now where that poor boy who was murdered the other day. [00:20:32] I mean, it must, it's, and, and I did have it, you know, I had a child who took his own life, had a teacher who took his own life. So I've been there leading that community and obviously, you know, it was an enormous emotional strain, but. I did have the reserves and I had the techniques to be able to go home and, you know, [00:20:50] share that with my wife and my children about how I was feeling to get through it and get out the other side of it. [00:20:55] And, and yeah, that's, yeah, you've gotta test yourself before you go into headship really, to say it's gonna be really, really tough, but it is the best job in education. I'm, you know, absolutely convinced about that. There were some really difficult moments, but at the same time, when you get through the other side of it, you kind of, you know, say, well, well done. [00:21:12] Me, frankly. 'cause I, I led [00:21:15] that community and we're now okay again. Yeah, it's a really interesting piece. We've got, um, a colleague of mine that works with still Human. She was a primary school head teacher and she's written a piece about loneliness at the top. And I think once you transition into that leadership role, it can be a real challenge. [00:21:31] It can be very lonely there. And I also think that, um, you, that there this sort of dichotomy that you think you're moving into a different role and therefore you should be. [00:21:40] Different. You need to be separate. You need to be other, you know, and that came out of my research. I, I spoke to a deputy head who, who gave up, actually gave up the profession and he said he didn't want to be different. [00:21:51] He liked being him and he felt that, you know, when he

was interviewing members, staff when the results were out, he felt that he had to, well, was told to say. How are you gonna improve next year, when the results were great and he said, I don't wanna do [00:22:05] that. I wanna say, really well done. That's fantastic. [00:22:08] So it's about being authentic, isn't it? The authentic leadership thing, which is an obvious thing to say, but it's so powerful and I think that when I became a head, I realized, as you say, that I didn't wanna become somebody else so I didn't become somebody else. But that really difficult thing is for 18 years, you are just hyper aware that everything and anything you do is being observed and judged. [00:22:29] Okay. You know, [00:22:30] and that includes, you know, scratching your nose in a, in a meeting about the way you walk down the corridor when you decide to go to the laboratory or not. Everything is commentable on, and so you have to just watch what you say so carefully watch your mood. You know, another sort of great sort of meme is if the head's having a bad day, everyone's having a bad day, and I think that's so true. [00:22:52] And so therefore, when that you as head are [00:22:55] having a bad day because you know, you, you, you're not feeling it today or you know something's happened in your life to make you feel down. You just have to put on a brave face and make sure that it, it doesn't therefore affect other people and just constantly be human, but. [00:23:08] For me, that also meant sort of just going to the staff room and being there and being in the corridors and my door was always open so that I was palpably a human being, experiencing all this stuff too. And therefore [00:23:20] I wasn't this kind of mysterious autocrat who sort of descended into meetings and that. [00:23:24] And then sort of wafted out again. But I think your relationship with your deputies is key. You know, I don't think, I did feel lonely as a head because I had great deputies and we all got on really, really well, and our meetings were full of laughter and joy to be frank. And we would just have a really good giggle about what was going on. [00:23:40] And then we all felt better to, to, to go into the next day. Yeah, it's so important [00:23:45] as a lady when you have to, as you say, put your game face on, and it's a real fine balance between being authentic and toxic positivity, which we've spoken about before. You know, that sort of, you know, everything should be fine. [00:23:57] And actually sometimes things aren't fine. Actually, say when you have a death of a, a colleague or something, it's you. You shouldn't. Try and put the best face on. You know, you've got to show your authenticity there and show your sorrow and sadness and, um, [00:24:10] there's no shame in that really. So what do people do? [00:24:12] You've got a head teacher that, um, doesn't really have the empathy, uh, to, to manage you and lead you well. Um, so what, what can staff do? And how can we, how can we foster environments that are psychologically safe for everybody? Yeah, I think that as the individual employee, whether that's a new teacher or anybody with who's employed on the, on the payroll of that [00:24:35] school, I see it many times that because the, the, the leader just isn't really delivering in that sense. [00:24:41] They just find other people to do it for them, you know, so little mini, um, line management, sort of informal line managements are, are created. And I can remember when I was a head of music, um, the SCO would just sort of, you know. Would you mind, Andrew? You know, you and I would sort of sit down and have a really good chat about, and I said, yeah, absolutely. [00:24:57] I don't mind. I'm very interested in your side of the [00:25:00] work anyway. Um, and so we sort of formed this informal relationship where we would just support each other mutually and, and mo about the leadership, you know, and, uh, and make it work for ourselves. So I think if that's, if, if we're talking to an employee who's going through that, where the leadership isn't really delivering an empathetic, uh, environment, then find somebody. [00:25:20] Near you, close to you that you can work with so that you can support each other. Yeah. That's so [00:25:25] important. And again, it goes back to those connections in schools, isn't it? And that culture of everybody being valued. And you know, as we've said many times, it has to come from the top and it has to be lived and breathe. [00:25:36] That's so interesting. So if our listeners today, we're gonna take away one thing. One nugget from you, what would you, what would your little nugget be for everybody? I think have a really good think about empathy and, and when I was writing the book about girls, uh, and [00:25:50] parenting, I can with, with my daughter Holly, who's 28 now, we feel spent a lot of time just really digging around. [00:25:57] Uh, what is, what is empathy? What does it mean? And, and, and why is it so powerful? And also in particular, what's the difference between empathy and kindness? So I think what I would go away with is you have to work at it. So I think that as a, as a small micro community, a class of children or you know, a staff room or a department, you [00:26:15] can, you can have moments when you, when everyone is feeling great and feeling very empathetic towards each other, and it drains away under the pressure of the whirlwind of, of busyness. [00:26:24] And so therefore you need to take a moment to kind of go, you know what, let's just look across the room at each other and kind of go, how's it going for you? You know, and let's just have a bit of, you know, empathy raising stuff. Perhaps not use that expression 'cause it's a bit sicky, but, but you know what I mean? [00:26:37] Just like, let's just take a moment. [00:26:40] Over coffee just to say, tell me about the dog. You know, you've got a new one. And so you start to sh to reveal your inner selves and then you start to work together and feel it with e with each other. So it's, yeah, just constantly kind of refresh and re evoke is the, is the message item. [00:26:54] That's so interesting and I'm sure our listeners will find that really interesting. So it's been absolutely amazing to talk to you today and thank you for your time and good luck with your podcast. Thanks very much [00:27:05] indeed.