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[0:02] Welcome to Divorce Without Destruction Mediation Podcast.
[0:08] Welcome to Divorce Without Destruction Mediation Podcast with Resolution, Mediation, Test
[0:14] Whirl and Hillary Sharfnack help Indiana couples navigate divorce and separation in a more
[0:20] peaceful, informed, and future-focused way through mediation.
[0:26] Instead of turning family conflict into courtroom battle, they help people protect their children,
[0:31] preserve their finances and create agreements that support life moving forward.
[0:37] I'm Lisa Mosby, and today we're talking about how divorce mediation can help parents
[0:42] protect their children emotionally, practically, and long-term during a divorce.
[0:48] Thank you both for joining me again today.
[0:50] Hello.
[0:51] Thank you.
[0:52] Thanks, Lisa.
[0:53] You know, test.
[0:54] Let's start with you.
[0:55] Why do so many parents choose mediation when they're thinking about how divorce could affect
[1:00] their children?
[1:01] I think they choose mediation because they have the idea, and I think it's appropriate,
[1:07] that mediation will allow them to create a more personalized parenting plan.
[1:13] And when we are talking with different groups about how mediation compares to the adversarial
[1:18] process, you know, in that adversarial process, there's often that when versus lose.
[1:26] And if one attorney wins, meaning gets more parenting time, or gets more money for the children,
[1:35] that comes from the other parent.
[1:40] So the other parent is hurt, and how do children feel about somebody who hurts their parent?
[1:49] They now feel that way about the first parent.
[1:54] And that battle can go on for a year to four years.
[2:01] So children are pitted between the parents and kind of step into the role of protecting
[2:07] one parent from the other for a huge percentage of their childhood.
[2:14] And I think as parents recognize the destruction, as parents who were children of divorce
[2:19] remember what they went through, they want something different.
[2:24] And in mediation, they have the chance to decide, here's how we want to take care of our
[2:31] children.
[2:32] Here's how we can say, I am my best parent at these times.
[2:37] Other person can say, I am my best at parenting at these times.
[2:42] So how do we combine those, and then how do we resource each other for those gaps?
[2:48] And because we're listening to concerns parents have about themselves or the other parent,
[2:55] we can build those into the parenting plan.
[2:59] We don't ignore them, we try to address them in the most productive ways.
[3:04] And we have a really wonderful process that Hillary is going to talk about that takes it to
[3:09] another level.
[3:10] Yeah.
[3:11] We offer a process called child inclusive mediation, and we always quickly say that does not
[3:16] mean the children are participating in the mediation sessions.
[3:20] It is a process that was developed out of Australia actually, but the person who has developed
[3:26] that training has offered this training worldwide, and we work with two really great child
[3:31] consultants who have gone through this training to be child inclusive mediation consultants.
[3:37] And in the process they being the child consultants are really kind of the voice of the children.
[3:43] So the children have an opportunity to voice as parents are divorcing or separating to
[3:49] voice their concerns and their fears or their hopes and their goals.
[3:54] And they get to voice those things to the child consultant.
[3:58] And then the child consultant gets to then take back that information and kind of summarize
[4:02] it and provide it to us as the mediators but to the parents.
[4:07] And so that as they're going through the parenting plan and making decisions decisions around
[4:12] the children, they have the input from the children kind of in the back of their mind.
[4:16] The children aren't the decision makers, you know, they don't get to be the decision makers
[4:20] because the parents it's their job to do that.
[4:22] But again, we as the mediators and the parents kind of know what children are thinking and
[4:26] feeling.
[4:28] And so we try to incorporate that and help the clients incorporate what the children want
[4:32] or hope for as much as possible.
[4:35] I would imagine there's times when children get overlooked during these situations because
[4:39] the parents and notions are running so high.
[4:42] So including them and letting the parents know where they're coming from is genius.
[4:48] I mean, beyond brilliant and it's all so new to me, but I applaud you for bringing this into
[4:54] your practice.
[4:55] You know, what are some of the biggest challenges children struggle with during and after
[5:00] divorce that you've seen?
[5:02] I think they tend to struggle to adjust to life into homes for anybody who's traveled a
[5:11] lot for work and lived out of a suitcase and had to make sure they had all their stuff when
[5:17] they left one place to go to another.
[5:19] That's the kind of day-to-day tension children are living under just how do I manage getting
[5:28] my cello between the houses, you know, on this parenting plan.
[5:33] And so that's one area where we try to help parents think proactively about how to equip
[5:39] their children.
[5:40] I think children also struggle to know how to remain a child.
[5:49] In destructive divorce, a side effect of that can often be, especially if there's a deeply
[5:57] wounded parent, that the parent child relationship gets flipped.
[6:01] The child becomes the comforter of the parent.
[6:05] The child becomes the protector of the parent.
[6:09] And so what we are always trying to do, and I think the child-inclusive mediation helps
[6:14] because we have this child consultant who's also working with the parents.
[6:20] If the parents have some gaps in their parenting, the child consultant can kind of help and
[6:26] instruct the
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parents how to parent more effectively and understand how to maintain that parent
[6:32] child appropriate role.
[6:36] I think children struggle with loneliness.
[6:39] They struggle with grieving the loss of their family.
[6:42] They struggle with all the different changes, but what we know, and here's where the focus
[6:50] of our practice really is laser-focused is.
[6:55] If we can help parents have as their highest priority working together for the sake of the
[7:04] children, children will do okay.
[7:07] Children's security comes from their parent's relationship.
[7:12] If the parent-marital relationship isn't there anymore, that's problematic unless the co-parenting
[7:21] relationship steps in.
[7:23] And if they have a good co-parenting relationship, and children feel secure, children know I can
[7:32] openly love both my parents.
[7:34] I can enjoy time with both my parents.
[7:37] My parents never put me in the middle or resent me for liking the other parent.
[7:44] If the parents can work together for the sake of the children, the children are going to do
[7:49] just fine.
[7:52] What kinds of parenting plans and family routines are usually discussed during mediation?
[7:57] A lot of different options.
[7:58] I think the biggest key is our job as mediators is to really listen to what the parents'
[8:05] lives are, in terms of work schedules, in terms of children's activities, school schedules.
[8:12] All of that is the initial focus of what parenting plan works for the two of you.
[8:19] Especially if you have one parent who travels a lot for work and is away a lot.
[8:24] How do we still ensure quality time once that parent is back?
[8:30] So I'm going to let test speak to more kind of the specific plans.
[8:34] But I think, again, the biggest goal for us is to really find a creative plan that works
[8:39] for that individual family.
[8:42] Off of all, we'll start is I'm a big white border.
[8:46] We just put the days of the week up on the board over the course of a month and just talk
[8:52] about what makes sense.
[8:54] We do help parents understand that different plans are typically better at different developmental
[9:01] stages.
[9:02] The younger children are the more frequently they need to see both parents.
[9:08] As they get older, the frequency matters less, but the length of time matters more.
[9:14] They kind of need to settle in and have ongoing time with a parent before transitioning.
[9:23] That's a big factor that gets considered, but also work schedules, children's activity schedules.
[9:29] It's not uncommon for our parents to have, okay, here's when I'm kind of on duty to provide
[9:37] the care for children these days and other parents on duty these days.
[9:41] But they're still seeing children because they're still helping get children, you know,
[9:47] these two children to this activity and these two children to this activity, they're still
[9:50] joining forces to be involved in all the levels of their children's lives.
[9:57] And that's pretty wonderful to see.
[10:00] When there are parents that have unique problems like substance abuse or other issues that
[10:06] create concern for everyone involved in the parenting.
[10:11] We do try to craft plans where the person with the substance issue is parenting at their
[10:20] best moments.
[10:21] And they're not necessarily being challenged to try and parent when they're not as able
[10:26] to parent, which brings more security to that other parent.
[10:30] They're more able to support the parent in parenting when they can.
[10:34] If they know, when the parent can't parent, children are going to be with me and I can know
[10:40] they're secure.
[10:41] So we try as Hillary was saying to move into the unique needs of each family and say, what's
[10:48] the best we can do here?
[10:50] I see from a legal perspective that it's so much more about the money and the things and
[10:57] the assets, this approach that you are taking within your company, just how you've put the
[11:03] children first is so much more important and more productive.
[11:09] Can you share with us why it's so important for parents to think beyond the divorce itself
[11:14] and focus on co-parenting relationships that continue long after the divorce is over?
[11:21] Well, if for nothing else, we now have pretty good research that shows when parents are able
[11:28] to put children first and focus on the children.
[11:32] Not only do the children do better, which is what we all want, but the parents do too.
[11:37] They do better financially.
[11:40] They do better in emotionally adjusting to the divorce.
[11:44] They do better in overall life advancement.
[11:50] If they just want to be selfish, you will do better as a person if you can set aside focusing
[12:00] on yourself and instead focus on your children.
[12:04] What we have found is if people can't do that, if they can't get outside their own selfishness,
[12:11] they really can't mediate.
[12:14] It's a pretty good litmus test for whether they are able to mediate or not.
[12:19] How does mediation help parents work through disagreements about schedules, communication,
[12:24] or parenting decisions without escalating that conflict?
[12:28] I don't have a great answer.
[12:29] Well, I think it's getting back at uncovering what are the fears, what are the concerns, and
[12:39] the more we can put those into concrete elements, that then allows the opportunity to try to
[12:47] begin addressing those.
[12:49] Also, I think the role of the child consultant is huge here, because if one parent says,
[12:55] I am really concerned about children being with other parent, but cause.
[13:00] They bring that up to the child consultant, and the child consultant has that in mind as
[13:06] and both of ours are women.
[13:07] We'd love to have some men, but as she is talking to children and is exploring that and it
[13:14] is extraordinarily helpful because if the child consultant
comes back and says to other
[13:21] parent, yes, children are concerned about this because other parent will say, oh, first
[13:27] parent's just making that up because they want more time.
[13:30] If the child consultant is able to say, no, this is a concern for children, but here are
[13:35] things you can do to address that concern.
[13:39] That's huge.
[13:40] Also, if child consultant comes back and says, parent A, I know you're really worried about that,
[13:47] it turns out your children are not.
[13:50] That helps as well.
[13:51] So that child consultant piece can be huge when parents are in significant conflict over
[13:59] what to do.
[14:00] But again, I think the best thing mediation does is we get into the days, we get into the concerns,
[14:08] we get into the, what about this is a problem, and because we make it more concrete in terms
[14:15] of conversation, we are able to get to more concrete answers.
[14:20] I don't know if that helps.
[14:23] It does.
[14:24] It really does.
[14:25] You brought it all together for me.
[14:26] And I want to bring this together for the audience as well.
[14:29] Can you share an example of something parents did during a mediation that helps create or
[14:35] helped create more stability or reassurance for their children?
[14:39] I have one story that I love.
[14:43] Beginning a mediation, mom walked in and she said, I just want to tell you, father is
[14:48] not getting a single day of parenting time.
[14:50] I've done all the care for our three-year-old.
[14:52] He will not have a moment.
[14:55] And if you bring that up, I'm walking out of mediation like, well, golly, we're going
[15:00] to have some difficulty here.
[15:03] Did some one-on-one conversation with her about her concerns?
[15:07] Did some one-on-one conversation with dad?
[15:11] Her deepest need was she had been a stay at home mom.
[15:15] She did not want to lose the couple of years before son went to kindergarten.
[15:21] And once dad understood that, and he already knew that, but he understood it at a deeper level,
[15:30] he was able to walk into mediation and say, look, I want you to be home with son too.
[15:37] And here's what I'm willing to do financially.
[15:40] So you can stay home and not have to work until he goes to kindergarten.
[15:45] And then we need to build a plan for how you start becoming financially independent then.
[15:50] And one of his major concerns was he had a business that one lawyer told him, you're going
[15:56] to have to sell the business and close it in order to create this financial distribution of
[16:00] assets.
[16:01] He said, if I can do that for you, can I keep the business?
[16:06] And I'll make sure you get money you need because they were able to share their deepest concerns
[16:13] and he was willing to make sure she had time with son that was precious to her.
[16:20] She then was more in agreement with him having more parenting time and learning how to be
[16:25] dad because he said, I've worked so hard.
[16:26] I haven't been there much, but I want to take this on.
[16:30] We ended up with a transition parenting plan that within a certain amount of time they
[16:35] were pretty evenly parenting.
[16:39] We wrote up the whole agreement.
[16:43] They came back to sign the agreement and she got there before he did.
[16:47] So she walked in and she signed the agreement and kind of went out the back door of our
[16:52] office as he came in the front door and he came running in and said, you know, where's
[16:55] wife?
[16:56] And said, oh, she just went out there and he went out and I just wanted to make sure things
[17:00] were okay.
[17:01] So I kind of looked out the window and it was clear.
[17:03] He was animatedly sharing a story.
[17:06] I'm assuming about their son with mom and they're laughing.
[17:10] He kisses her on the cheek.
[17:13] Comes back in the office, signs the agreement and goes out the front door.
[17:18] That was about 10 years ago.
[17:21] They have never ended up back in court.
[17:24] And I just love that and that's not uncommon.
[17:28] No, not at all.
[17:29] I think the majority of our couples, even when they are not walking away, kissing each other
[17:33] off the cheek, you know, and they're not going to be the best of friends.
[17:38] They still walk away with, again, that confidence of, okay, we're still a team.
[17:44] And we can do this for the sake of the kids.
[17:48] We don't have to talk every day.
[17:49] We may not even have to talk face to face.
[17:51] Maybe we're communicating through an app or maybe we're texting or whatever the case is.
[17:55] But we've set that foundation for them to, again, have that confidence of we are still a family.
[18:02] It's now a redefined family and we are moving forward still as a family.
[18:07] So we as the parents have to make this work for the sake of the kids.
[18:10] And we've helped provide different tools and resources.
[18:13] And again, always coming back to just building that confidence that they can do this.
[18:18] One other piece that we often do with couples is when you talked about conflict levels, when
[18:23] there is high conflict, a lot of times it is fear driven.
[18:26] And as Tess mentioned, we're trying to get at what is that, that root of the fear.
[18:30] And a lot as we are just kind of reframing things from parents, not to discredit what
[18:38] they're saying or to invalidate what they're saying.
[18:40] But just to provide a different perspective that perhaps where the other parent is possibly
[18:44] coming from or feeling, et cetera.
[18:47] Again, it's bringing impact to your still a team, your still a family, and how do you work
[18:52] together moving forward?
[18:54] It's not just about you.
[18:56] You're not just the better parent.
[18:57] The other parent brings different strengths and different tools than you do.
[19:01] And so working together is ultimately the best for the children.
[19:05] And the children are a combination of both of you.
[19:08] So honor in your child what is of that other parent because that's who your child is.
[19:18] Well said, Tess.
[19:20] I want to thank you both for sharing how you create such a safe space and allow people
[19:24] to be vulnerable at a really difficult time and help them to connect and communicate.
[19:29] Thank you so much for your time today.
[19:31] Thank you.
[19:32] Thanks Lisa.
[19:33] That's it for today's episode of Divorce Without Destruction Mediation Podcast with Resolution
[19:39] Mediation.
[19:41] If you'd like to learn more about Tess Whirl or Hillary Sharpe Neck and the Mediation Services
[19:47] they offer across Indiana, visit Resolution Mediation-I-N dot com.
[19:53] Thank you for listening and don't forget to like, subscribe to the show, and leave
[19:57] a review if you found this episode helpful.
[19:59] We'll see you next time.
[20:00] Thanks for watching.
[20:06] Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button and leave us a review in the comments.