บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Dev to Dev S03 E08 - Max Pears

adult a keyboard or a controller, it'd be the reverse effect, right? Where people feel more comfortable on the a keyboard versus controller. But I think as a younger kid that the l shall we say, what look like the lesser inputs connected better. speaker-1: Got it. So the con the machine itself was more approachable, more accessible, and that kind of drew you in and felt like it was for you. Interesting. And w where did you grow up? speaker-0: So I grew up in England, in Yorkshire from a small town just outside of York. I don't wanna give much more away in case people come looking. I don't live there now, guys. speaker-1: You can't hunt him down there. and and did you and did you have any other siblings or any other sort of family members other than your dad and uncle that played? speaker-0: Yes. we had my I I'm a twin brother and I've got a younger sister as well. we all played games, even my mum as well. I remember a great session we had. We had time crisis for the PS one and me and my mum playing around with that and you know, she was a great hoop for for that. Despite her not being very good at it, she would lie, but she wasn't very good. But like I think we all engaged in it. My dad was into Computing grew up with video games prior to that, in the earlier stages. so yeah, I think all of that kind of manifested there. You know, eventually we all faded off. My sister still plays Sims, but it's probably as far as she goes in terms of engagement with video games. My brother still plays, my dad's an avid player still to this day. I think he's on the World of Warcraft Forever train right now, so he's very much into that. But yeah, so I think you can see that It came across all of us, shall we say? speaker-1: Yeah, cross generational, very gaming family. Gaming was in your family's DNA. and I'm guessing you know, you see a small village, w were there kind of other people at school? Yeah. W was gaming kind of a big part of your culture or was it only really at home? speaker-0: I'm sure you'll feel it as well, Alice mate. Like watching kids now all be accepting of people playing games versus like, you know, getting your ass kicked for talking about games is a very different world you and I can relate to. Yeah, like I had a a great best friend growing up who played games. He had the Sega Genesis, so more like we say two D layer, but like he was really into them. I had friends come over, we play multiplayer, like local couch couch co op. Because again, that's all you had, unless you had a PC. but yeah, so there's so many of us who I grew end up gravitating towards, got into eventually secondary school in that found again, more like-minded people. And you could start to see the transition, right? Especially for for my generation. I remember Call of Duty Modern Warfare, right? Like that to me was such a huge Obviously your GTA's had cultural impacts, but I think Modern Warfare f you know, the f Modern Warfare Call of Duty Four, Modern Warfare, the true the the true original of that one had like such a a ripple effect of people who weren't the biggest game players now we're all talking about it. Obviously Xbox three sixty had started to bring console online. You'd start to see that become more common. So like, yeah, there's a real shift. I think at that moment where games were starting to be a bit more accepted. I probably was one of the only ones, well actually a f a friend of mine, Joe, Joe Ford, he works at Riot Games now as in audio. But it was only like me and him were probably thinking about games as a career, shall we say, right? So speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is when when so it sounds like, console games especially games were a a part of your culture, they were a part of your friend group you so you very much grew up with them. When did that when did that love of playing turn into a dream of working? speaker-0: Man, I think it's it's like you mentioned, right, you feel like games come out of nowhere, right? And especially that time period as well. I'm curious how how it was for you growing up as well, mate. But a lot of that time felt like Japan especially speaker-1: Hundred percent. speaker-0: was, you know and from a small town in Yorkshire, Japan could have been a whole different world, you know? Like so To me it it didn't feel like possible, right? no but actually not knowing the amount of yourself the the amount of like studios that were here in the UK that were really starting to boom off, you know, and you know, we talk about GTA. Everyone would have thought that's an American studio, right? Like you just because of where the the the matter is based. But yeah, I think it was once I started to figure that stuff out, I do remember I had a very look, I misbehave kids don't follow my example here, but one where I was like, I'll show you at a science teacher and Resident Evil outbreak had just come out and it was like the first time I'd bought a like myself had bought a strategy guide. relics have gone gone by times now, mate, but And I was like reading that under the table and I should have been paying attention to to science. And I remember him being like, there's there's nothing in here for video games. You can't make a living out of video games. I was like, We'll see. But it was one where the options in terms of trying to find out what that meant was so limited, right? still to today I'm subscribed to Edge magazine, but my dad read that and then I started to read it and you'd obviously come across interviews. So you'd start to see, I th there are human beings that make it, not these mythical, you know, like beings over in over in Asia. And from that point, like I'd start to try to see well, what what can I do? And from there, mate, we transitioned over to starting to make small small things, right? I learned action script with Adobe Flash in my first ever game. I I made it when I was fifteen. it's some just be clear, it's something so simple, nothing

nothing amazing. But I made a point of making sure I finished it before it was three days before my birthday or something. But it was just like this asteroids would just come down. And you just had buttons to move left or right for your spaceship, right? Just see how long you last until your spaceship blows up, points would accrue, right? Because again, no one's teaching this at this point in in my school, right? I had to go find a certain IT teacher who wasn't my teacher to ask, can you teach me this? Right. And he was a so many incredible teachers, I just want to say, like, played a huge role in all of this, right? Like, supportive family as well. I definitely know some families who like people just no, not a chance, you're not you're not doing that. So yeah. Did that eventually stuff like Little Big Planet came out and that came out with its level editor, right? And that's when I started to play around with those aspects. Same with Gears of War. I think they had like a small Gears of War editor, part, you know, a spin-off of Unreal UDK at the time. And started to play with that. You know, I remember, man, like the first Unity tutorial I ever watched was like control making a little worm move and then it shoots fireballs as turrets shoot at it. And it took forever to make that, but learnt from that point there. And then I started to investigate that there were university courses, right? And I think compared to yourself, man, like it was something which I I feel very fortunate about, right? Like, even though some of the stuff may not be perfect in some some regards, especially at that time, it was still something where like there's people with experience teaching, right? There's people who had released games. helping out and you know, again, without their help as well, I don't think I would have made it into the into the industry. So yeah, man. speaker-1: Interesting. Right, so so it almost sounds like, Flash and Action Script and there there was desire there to go beyond play that wasn't driven by that was self motivated by the sounds of it. what do you think triggered that? 'Cause not everybody necessarily makes that leap from like I love playing games like, can I actually go make that? Like you you mentioned LBP and Gears maybe came afterwards, but like what first triggered you to go make your own stuff? speaker-0: man, we'll go I'll try to keep this as light as possible, but it is a a sad story in its its own regard. so I lost my mum when I was eight, right, and I think games was my escapism for speaker-1: right. Wow. speaker-0: and I think to me it was like a chance to these things that had helped me move and accept and grow from this was a something that I wish I could give back to others, right? Wow. To tell these stories that had meant so much to me, that had aided me in the growth of me as a human being, to then Yeah, just something where I felt these me this as a medium could be so much larger than what it was ever given credit for. Obviously you and I sit in a position today where games are normalized. Most people in the world play them. You know, the gender gap is almost fifty fifty when you consider mobile. That wasn't the case when you and I were growing up and to see them now, you know, like soundtracks are being nominated at the Grammys. you would that was scoffed at back in the day, right? BAFTR is a now like an an everyday occurrence where like I've been fortunate enough to be a judge at that fortunate enough where some of my games have been nomin that I've contributed to have have been nominated. You know, it's a it's a different time versus back then, you know? Like we're talking about the revolution revolution of 3D, right? Like I remember when I first worked on mobile used to put three D in the title screen because that was a wow moment that mobiles could play three D, So yeah man, it was very much like this was a medium that helped me. This was something that allowed me to escape, to grow, to grieve, and it's something that I wanted to give back to, contribute to in in in in any way I could. speaker-1: Wow, that's powerful. I love that. Yeah, that you've you found you wanted to give back. You wanted to, contribute back to something that you love so much that had been so important to you. And and do you think that really drove you to want to get into the industry? Really drove you to look for, you know, any opportunity you could to make stuff on loan? speaker-0: Massively so, mate. As I said, the small I wanna make clear, when I say small town, it wasn't like a a a a village of five people to be clear. Like it was a town still still under a hundred thousand people to be clear, you know. But it was something where again like you didn't know where these things these things were made, so like I think it was also a way for me to to get out and see like yourself, you lived abroad as well, mate. the opportunity to do something you love and see the world while you do it. Mm-hmm. Not everyone gets that opportunity. Not everything offers that. And for me it was a chance to to chase something, right? kid I remember, mate, kids dreaming about being footballers. I won't lie, I dreamed about being an actor or a thespian at some point, but I remember when kids were around playing football, I had a strategy guide of I think black and white too, because I was just so enamored with these things. You know, I don't want to say I was a you know, a ladies magnet at the time, but definitely not. But it was this sort of thing which just yeah, forever stuck with me, you know. speaker-1: And I guess once you found the ability to actually start making stuff that was very powerful and drove you and and and you mentioned going to university to study. so what did you study a p particular part of game design? Like what did you study? It was speaker-0: Just global games. I as I said, I think we were still very early in terms of that university what is, right? it wasn't until I actually got

into the I did a placement year to through mine. So that's where I went and made mobile games. And it wasn't until part way there that I realized like what was the difference between game design and level design. Now I'm more specialized in level, but I've participated part of my career through like different parts of game design, technical, bus design, you know. Different mechanics, all those, but level design is my is my more bread and butter. And so yeah, it was still more broad scope. Your first year you learn everything from 3D modeling, animation, a little bit of a little bit of of coding and you know, level design, and then you pick where to specialise. Now my university was Teesside University. At the time of my research, it was Teesside, Bournemouth. And Abate, which were the big the big three ones there, mate. And I y I'm not particularly educated when I say educating me more I didn't achieve high high grades at school in that sense. And I just remember I went to Teeside and I like, Man, this is this something I want to be at. Like this you know, we had people who worked on the driver franchise, twenty four hour of the game, many more, right? So it was Truly people that had done it, lived a life that I aspired to one day get to. So that's what appealed to me. And so yeah, it was an overall general game design kind of course, I'd say. speaker-1: Got it. Interesting. Small aside the T side and Abate have both come up on previous guests that I've had this season. Yeah, yeah. So that's cool. It sounds like they were, you know, very influential studios. universities. Okay, yeah, so so you get a broad you know, broad go you get a placement. So how so when you get a placement, you know, how did that feel to actually go into a team? Is that making stuff? speaker-0: I I'll just wanna first wanna say to any students who may may be listening, 'cause I think this is a a real f am I allowed to swear on your show? speaker-1: I will bleep it out, but you are you are alone. speaker-0: Can I see if I Okay, I can bleed myself. speaker-1: you got you're a breeper. speaker-0: So I really want to make this clear to any student listening, like, really pay a f attention to what I'm gonna say here. the the one for me was like just how odd it was. This so the company, I don't think they exist anymore, sadly, but they were called Fog Media. Fog stood for free online games at the time. The one of their like managers, a guy called Craig, lovely guy. came they gave a talk at our university, right? and we sat in the the room and like after his talk so many people left and just didn't say a word. Like I went over to him like went to ask him, showed him like my stuff I was working on, really made a point of like, hey I'm here if you've got something, I'm your guy. I am ready. And I think I was their first placement and like it worked out, right? Like in it yeah, for the design course there was only me and another guy. Now his placement was at Microsoft, but I don't necessarily know if it was games per se. but yeah, man, so I just really want to stress to any students listening, like take advantage, right? Like I don't know about you guys, mate, but like I occasionally go do talks at universities from time to time. Like we want to talk, we want to help, we want to hear your thoughts. Like so anyone listening, don't be shy about it. There is no such thing as a stupid question. We are literally there to to help. So don't squander that y opportunity. Cause I just remember, man, no one said anything. And like for me, happy as a clam that no one did say anything, but also very dumbfounded that no one did, you know. So t seize the opportunities with that. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: mate, I was a fish out of water when it came to that placement because like I think they were expecting someone who had more like coding background overall, right? I had v so little. I remember I was calling my dad, he remembers the story very differently, but I remember calling him saying, I'm gonna get fired, and he took that as like I wanted to quit. That was never the Coche case. It was more it's that imposter syndrome. I I don't necessarily know my skills matched. Mm-hmm. We ended up using an engine called Construct Two, but has like a visual scripting element to it, right? And mate, like man I remember the first game I made and again, it's to most people it's nothing amazing, but it was the first game I made, I was over the goddamn moon. It was just one of these tower stacking games, right? a crane has a brick, you've got to time them all when it and then build as high as you can. Different bricks have different abilities. And made like again We're in a very different time at this point as well. Like I had another one where it was called like a Stan we named after our artist Stan, Stan's parking jam, right? And you know, a a car puzzle where you had to move stuff out of the way to get your car out of the parking lot. Dude, like on my weekends I asked the boss, because you could fit it all on a USB drive. I said, Can I take this home and just work on this over the weekend, make new levels? The fact that they would let you take the whole project on a USB home and like you know, trusted me to just make levels in my spare time to then come back and we'd update it, mate, it was amazing. But definitely I felt more like fish out of water. Obviously my skill sets weren't one for one what they wanted, but like, mate, what a a a great one because at the time I don't r I didn't realise it versus now when you look back, but like the biggest team I ever got was like four people on a project, right? Most of the time it was two of us. You didn't have a huge amount of time to make these games, but we still made stuff. one of our games made it into the top fifty of the app charts. Mm. You know, which is a huge achievement. It's not angry birds, money, because if it was, you know, I'd be somewhere not talking to you, you know. The Just yeah, man,

like the fact that we we built from that, right? Like we've found that depending on certain markets, like China really loved this racing game we made and kinda blew me away. I was like, whoa. Cause it didn't do so well in Europe, but over here, we still reach people that in enjoyed that. So yeah, dude, it was a big learning curve, but one where I got to learn more about coding in general. So it was a great skill up for me how to work with people and how to make something, pretty pretty efficiently quickly. So yeah. speaker-1: Mm, excellent. And I I it sounds like, you know, rapid turnaround, right? You probably went from idea to ship in a very short time. Great way of kind of getting your feet wet in terms of learning the process as opposed to, you know, going into a studio and working on something for multiple years and you know, maybe shipping it, maybe not, right? It feels like that's a good way of kind of getting yourself started. speaker-0: mate, I was extremely jealous of the the other land who'd gotten with Microsoft, right? 'Cause the prestige and all this, versus at the time, right, and I say this in more of a an insult to myself. mobile games were just on the come up for most people, right? It's day to day now. And obviously what you can do with mobile is so different to what you could do back in twenty twelve when I was making them. I was like, Who's gonna play this? Like this isn't the story dream games that I love. And like it was so silly. Like 'Cause as you said, such a great opportunity. I think it was seven games I had released in that one year, Yeah. Wow. And each one allowed me to get better. Each one had great highs, some had bad blows, but you still kept coming in and you still I said I got opportunities to work on it in the weekend when I wanted to and do all of that. So yeah, mate, like and I said to to learn more about coding at the time, which would play something a role later in my career, like Yeah, you almost miss it, mate in a necessity. So when you join these big studios, which again is its own amazing and crazy cool thing, but it does change things in terms of input to output, right? There's a bit more things going on before you see the end results and yeah, man. So that was a huge, yeah, huge huge fun for me there. speaker-1: Yeah, that's great. And and so you you you speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: you do your placement of fog, you gra you you you finish uni and then what when do you get your first role in the studio i in the industry, proper role in the industry? speaker-0: Proper role. So just a quick one. W there was a a small competition called Dare to Be Digital, right, up in Scotland. It was at Aberdei University, right? Where a team of five of us would go try in eight weeks build like a proper prototype. And we made this augmented reality kind of like quote unquote tower defence game, but it was all about bringing your imaginary friend to life. It was called like Pygmy Panic and mate, it was Again, there's five

of us, the fact this university was paying for us to to do this. And we met some incredible people. And like I just want to say this quick side note, because we talked about like doing something to connect was part of the reason why I got into games. I'll never forget this is still my favourite moment in in my career of making games. So at the end of it we have this like big present like this big exhibition where people from all over Dundee come over and this this man comes with his granddaughter. And I can't remember what she had, I can't remember some sort of ADHD or it might have been Asperger. I I can't remember off the top my head, but like he said she had real struggles with like properly connecting with people. But she picked up the iPad, she looked at the little AR thing as it came to life in her. And we our first tutorial was like it was a toy box, right? You shoot open the three latches, the box would open, you'd see this island like pop out, and then you'd play the game. And he just comes over to me and he's like When is this out? Because I've never seen her be so engaged, never seen her react to this. And like that to me was j it's still I said still is my favorite moment in making games because it was something where I could see it have a meaningful impact. It changed clearly her grandfather's view on games as well. So yeah, that was beautiful. And that's where I met a great guy called Andrew Willens. Who worked at Ubisoft Reflections at the time. And I was able to show this product and the mobile games to him and who would then be my lead, called Manny Diaz, which was again another superstar in his own right. and like mate, like end of uni, I'm trying to find a job. I turned down a mobile job in Germany because I was just like, right, I've done mobile, I love it, but like I want to see if I can make it in the triple A. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: But as you and I both know. Design roles are far few and in between. So my friends tell me, look, you know, you've spoken to Andrew. Andrew says he's there might be something great. I go see Manny, I show him that that project at this other like he's given this talk and I show it to him. That blows him away. And I'm very fortunate to get my like an internship over at Ubisoft Reflections. That's my first like introduction into the more triple A kind of space there, mate. That's about two thousand and Fourteen at that point. speaker-1: Got it. Okay. I I'm fascinated already, Max, by the amount of times that you went and spoke to someone, you went and showed something, you went and asked the question. I love like you said that you just said that advice you gave. It's really indicative of how you can make your own yeah, you can make your own entry point to the career if to a career if you work well. And also the fact that the the reaction you got from that family, you know, speaks so much to the reason why you make video games, right? You know, to to Trigger reactions to get to give back, to

get people engaged in ways that they engage you. I love those are those are fantastic stories. speaker-0: Yeah, man. It's it's the thing that inspires us, right? day in, day out, that's the thing that speaker-1: Yeah. And still inspires you today. That's really cool. and so yeah, so Ubers of Reflection, so and great studio, right? To to make a storage studio. not too far from you, but still a move. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, I remember like having to ask my dad for some money just to help pay down the the first deposit for the the the place I was renting from, right? made sure to pay that back quickly. but the yeah, moving up to Newcastle, I said not too far. I'd gone from Middlesbrough to Sunderland, back to Middlesbrough, up to Scotland, back to Middlesbrough to now Newcastle. So I was Primarily around the north of England at this time. I felt I was very fortunate to be part of almost that prime years of Ubisoft. every game they were putting out was at minimum eight out of ten in terms of many critically acclaimed players were there. I was entering on a new franchise, which was Tom Clancy's The Division. This whole kind of like multiplayer looter shooter was really just kind of coming up at the time, right? Like us and destiny really made a mark on the the industry, man. And like yeah. Man, what a what a great thing. I'd say this about Ubisoft, man. Ubisoft had a great way to teach young devs how to make games, right? you have so many great structures of leads, seniors, your intermediates, all wealth of knowledge. And I was very fortunate because we talked about me doing mobile and learning how to do a bit of coding. That led me into more of a technical level design role at the time. And like I was Bricks, because again, sorry, I should let rephrase that. I was bricks. They're like we for me it was the my technical lead, Simon Cooper, scoop as I called him at the time, again another just super smart. Everyone on that team was incredible, just FYI. if I did names, I'd be here all all day, but like everyone was a winner. And so for me it was a great chance to to learn like The more core values like rational level design, how do you pace things out correctly, documentation, right? these weren't the things you would talk about in the mobile games, as we talked about, it's out. No one's asking you to look at the design document. We've talked, there's three of us working on it. Crack on. So versus now there is like multiple hundred, three studios in total working across on this project, right? And yeah, man, like I was in charge of creating, I guess, like prefabs for the open world events. So it was it was a really big thing, man, like to as a as a junior to really Make sure that 'cause Snowdrop at the time was going from Unreal, right, with its visual scripting, but instead like what you can similar do now with Unreal, where you can make macros, you couldn't do that at the time with Unreal, right? But they did that in Snowdrop. So my sort of thing was making sure, right, you want to create this type of event. Well, instead of 15 nodes, here's one node, here's the parameters you need exposed, use that. back and forth feedback. Maybe we need more of creative freedom here. Maybe there's too much. How do I simplify this? Introduce that. And then I would start to work on some of the open world events across some of the districts as well. So it's a lot, man. Like it was a real lot to to contribute to to such a big, you know, which was now a franchise in its own right, you know. And you and I both know not every game you make lasts, you know, X years. Like division I labeled contract on the mobile version division resurgence. You know, I think it's like last year or it's either last year or this year is the ten year anniversary of division as a franchise. So, you know, again to to contribute to three entries in that is, you know, something I don't take for granted as well. So yeah, very, very fun with that, mate. speaker-1: That's great. And and that must was that a culture shock, going to a team, that big and process that mature? speaker-0: Yes, I think so because I think I was very much like an energetic puppy, right? Where I was like just so happy, wanting to go, go, go, and going from somewhere which was just hey go versus rain the leash in a little bit on on this kind of aspect is yeah, very different. But I understood why, and again I had great leads. And I was really fortunate, man, because we we're talking about moving abroad. As a junior, they sent me over to one of the other studios. I think I stayed in For almost a month over in Sweden to work with them, right? that my my boss at the time, Daniel Molnow, a great guy, said to me, He's like, Max, I want you to be the first one in the office and the last one to leave. Do you understand? Like you need to represent us and you need to make sure that like people see that how you work is a reflection on us. So yeah, spent longer times than I wanted to rather than going to Sweden, you know. But their drink prices were ridiculous, so it's not like I could do much anyway. speaker-1: Yes, so true. Yeah, interesting though. And you know, th that you were it sounds like you were given a lot of responsibility, but also, you know, sort of thrown a little bit into the deep end in terms of a you know, big franchise, big team, you know, big machine that you've got to find your place in and and and did you fight it sounds like you sort of shifted into more a facilitator role, almost, you know, more kind of like building pieces that support the content in a way. Was that Did you find that challenging? Did you enjoy that, that role as opposed to being on the front line actually making the content? speaker-0: It was definitely like a shock in the sense of the distance, right, between myself and the the actual content. You know what I mean? Like versus we talked about making mobile games, like me, one other person, boom, it's in. Like you can see the changes, you

can play it instantly, right? Like now you've got to wait X hours for a build to be made to then test it. And now I need to test with three other people to see the proper result. So yeah, it was it was different. I think I was also very nervous because my my lead Simon He's an incredibly smart man, and I definitely didn't feel I was like anywhere near that level of intelligence to be in this more technical role, right? And you know, imposter syndrome is is is is a real thing and I definitely missed the creative aspect for sure, but like it was very fun to have more of a I say a more a f a footprint that echoed throughout the entire game, right? Because people are taking these templates and there's elements there and eventually I would get to make the content again. Love it. It was just more of one where I get to see the more technical side, have my brain tested as I said, I I'm not by education standards, I'm not an intel intellectual man. But to to have that to prove I can do these things was yeah, great. Like I think one of my favorite stories is my would become design director, Manny said his favorite thing was watching was going and giving me feedback and he said I'd always be like, Yeah, I'll do it. And then he'd watch me get back to my desk and like look in dread on how the hell am I gonna s do the thing I just agreed to. So it's, you know, but you've got to like my my ethos is when a director asks you to jump, you just say how high. speaker-1: Absolutely. Es especially at that time in your career, right? those are great opportunities to muck in and get stuff done and learn and and grow. And and so you're at you're at Ubisoft for a couple of years and then you move over to CD Project Red. What what drove that move? speaker-0: I think a couple of things, mate, it was one as we said, like a chance to A chance to move abroad really like and do the thing we love was really appealing. And a funny story, so this was for Cyberpunk. I remember making the mobile games back in 2012, and it was 2013, the first ever trailer of Cyberpunk came out. And man, I just remember thinking seeing that trailer. If I could work on that, that would be something different. So the opportunity came about. Some friends I knew from Ubisoft had gone over there. mate, the there's some whole mess ups with the the tests and the process. But we got there and yeah, it was just what a what a great experience to to do that. Longest project I've ever worked on, about like just shy of four years. And then I contributed onto the DLC for Phantom Liberty. I didn't see it out to the to the end, but like yeah, mate. Very just yeah, a very just wild experience, right? in terms of living abroad. It's my first time, being by myself living abroad. I didn't move over with anyone, just me on my toddl. I think you probably had it even more of a culture shock 'cause you went to the other end of the world. Europe, there's some there despite the language not being the same, right? there is some

more cultural similarities versus say like America, I feel like we speak the same language, but there are some big cultural gaps in some ways, And Yeah, mate. So to to be able to p work on Cyberpunk was just it was so freeing as a level designer because you had so many routes you could offer the player, right? division was very much like, hey, we've got mechanics that might be able to solve it, but really your solution is shoot, and that solves the problem. In Cyberpunk, you could stealth through, you could d use dialogue, depending how you upgraded your body, you could unlock different routes, you could even skip most of the mission if you'd really put in into the the the perk system that that way and you know go through skip entire content if you really upgraded yourself. So yeah, dude, it was a a wild ride and an incredible experience too. You know, we talked about when you came on mind about like BlizzCon, like I got to go s to E3 and Tokyo Game Show, which was like things I'd only like dreamed of when reading Edge magazine, right? And you're there representing a game that you're working on with some people that you like absolutely respect and are in awe of the skill that that team can can bring, you know? So yeah, dude, it was a like again, ups and downs. It's no secret how Cyberpunk released, but the the overall experience wouldn't change, wouldn't wouldn't ask for anything different, you know. speaker-1: Speak speaking that you don't have to get into the the the the grim details, but I'm curious from your perspective working on a game that you were so obviously so enamoured with, the opportunity to do so, a dream game, when it launches that way, how do you personally navigate that challenge? speaker-0: Dude, it was very lonely, right, for us because it was it released during COVID, right? So compared to as you know, like most places do launch parties when a game comes out. Like we sadly as a a team couldn't do that. So you just feel very like like I said, my family wasn't there. I can't go see friends because COVID's on lockdown. So you're really disappointed because the reviews start coming in really well, right? And you know, my my trust is in the team. You know, there are some things that you and I know when you we're at teams of the sizes of hundreds to thousands, there's so much out of your control, right? And you you've gotta trust everyone that they're they're do they're pulling the weight 'cause there's no such thing as a lazy dev. Not And I've not I've only met one in my entire career, right? Like the rest everyone's the real deal. Everyone is really passionate and care about this. So yeah, it's heartbreaking, man. It's it's one where you Because we were split trying to obviously fix the base game and start Phantom Liberty, right? Like and you're going back and forth and I I'm very appreciative, I'm sure it's very different for for you when you were starting in games, right? once the game's on the disc, that's it. Right. when I started making mobile, as I said, I could go work on a weekend and update it, send the update. so I love this aspect of game development now where we as teams can still build on what we have. And it ends up being, obviously other than no man's sky, I'd say one of the the better turnarounds for a for a game. speaker-1: Definitely. speaker-0: But it was tough, you know, it's definitely tough. The situation of Covid I don't think made anything better. But again, as I said, it's trust in the team. Yeah. It was trust that we would as a team get there. Again, we may not be singing, dancing, drinking at this time, you know, in celebration, but like everyone put their nose back to the ground grindstone and just as I said, did a huge great job turning it around. Mm-hmm. I played a small role and that was obviously hundreds of other incredible people that put the hard work into that, you know. So yeah, it was very it's it was tough. But think I wish it was the great nine out of ten game that it could you that it is now. Yeah, speaker-1: It is now I was gonna say that it's become, speaker-0: that it would have been on the launch. Mm-hmm. You know. But again, it's still look, it's still a mark in gaming history in it in it in its own right, both good and bad. And I I appreciate that and don't take that for light. So yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, agreed. And, still making bro impacts and and being talked about today. So and and so after C project where you go on kind of a consultancy contractor kind of journey across various studios, like talk to me about that. What drove that yeah, transition and and what was it like sort of shifting from being sort of within the bosom of a team to kind of working in that more sort of consultant c contractor role? speaker-0: Yeah, I think it came about just because it was a an opportunity, right? at that time versus what we have now, right? you've done consulting roles, but I think you can speak to it as well. A designer doing contracting was a rare thing, right? that was not from my experience, not many people were doing that at all. And I noticed I was getting a few of them coming around. Obviously, the I want to make it clear, I love doing this for games to be clear. I'm just saying contracting make you make more money doing it. I'm not saying that as in greedy kids, I'm not a millionaire. I think you'd tell from my small office I'm not a rich man. But it's it was an opportunity to again learn from different studios and also design so many different ways, right? Like Cyberpunk, great project. It was the longest project I worked on, right? So there's a a design me to like, okay, what can I learn now? What What different things can I be challenged by? I am by no means a master of l like I said, level design by bread and butter. There are other things I do, but I'm no nowhere near a master of that. There's so many incredible, different designers who are just way better than me. So it was an opportunity to to learn, right? So that

was kind of what inspired it for me, this chance to see different studios to help to just be in that creative aspect as well, right? When we talk about Making games on the Teams, there are politics involved. And I don't necessarily mean that use that word always necessarily in a negative way, but it is a part, right? Versus now like, hey, I'm hired to do a job here. You know, if people like me or don't like me, or if like there's something going on, I'm not involved in it. Right. My thing is I'm here to do this. I'm here for a time period to solve this problem or to get you to this stage. If we move on to the next, great. If not, There was contracts at that time, So it was a great one to go for. one of my dream companies was Ninja Theory at the time. And I got a chance to contribute. You know, sadly, as you and I both know, and many of our listeners, Ninja Theory is pretty much no more now. So to be able to, again, to do that before all is said and done was you know a dream come true for me. Like I the them as a small team always were like innovating for such a small team, right? And like In terms of the tech, I know some people weren't a fan of their take on Devil May Cry, but their level design for that Devil May Cry to me was wow. The dynamicness of it, the combat, all of that just played really well. So yeah, really cool to see that. And then there was, I said, I helped out with Ubisoft on Division Resurgence as well. Mel Eden was by another company over in Poland and The last contracts that I did was say that of Mafia the old country. in terms of like differences, one of the things I think was like a big difference is as I said, but one of the things that I I really try to do is always learn, right? Like I'm really fascinated in in in learning and growing. As a contractor, you don't you don't have someone to like communicate directly above you to be like, what are your thoughts on these, right? Like it's either yes, no, duh, duh, it's It's not necessarily cold is the word, but more I guess pragmatic, right? Like Yeah. speaker-1: A little bit more transactional almost, isn't it? speaker-0: So that was a big shift for me. Also, like when we're talking about money as well, it's like how you operate that with money, right? Like you've got to negotiate that each time around. Like some contracts only last a couple months, some contracts last over a year. It really can depend, you know? And you've got to manage that also like What a great thing to learn about managing a company. I my company was first in Poland, then it was in England. So you're learning these different financial rules, which not always the most fun, but a great new thing to learn, right? So yeah. Really just again, something that was Yeah. Something I do not do not regret it and just what a cool experience. 'Cause you know, contracting seems more normal now, but at the time it wasn't then. speaker-1: Yeah. so yeah. Yeah, you're right. I think in the design space I can only think of a handful, a couple of people across here in America that that do it. And and you say, there's more now, but and and and I I love that sort of the angle of that and I I feel the same, that opportunity to kind of learn from a lot of places, learn little bits from lots of you know, lots of places rather than kind of stay at one place and you know, grow of course and learn, but you get more exposure to different structures and different processes and different approaches to things, different tools. It's a good opportunity. So you do that for a while, yeah, you contract for like speaker-0: I think it's about four and a bit years, four and a half. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, and so and and then like you say, so s I guess you started in Poland doing that. Yes. And then you moved back to the UK. Exactly, mate. and then what what sort of led you to to you know take up a permanent role again at People Can Play? speaker-0: Yeah, a couple of things, mate. the first one was, you know, it's no secret the state of the industry and how long that's been going on. It was very clear to me that a lot of contracts were drying up and at the time when working with hangout, which again is a great place to work. I can only speak highly of of them, was that when I came to speak to them, I was like, right guys, we are like 'cause I always say and I recommend if anyone goes to contracting, put this in your contract. Most contracts will say give you a one month notice period. Demand three because you never know what you need to do. Most people or most companies will wait to the near the end of that month to tell you. So by putting in three, you better safeguard yourself. It's nothing out of malice anyone does it. It's just things are happening, right? Like it's hard to predict. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And when I spoke to them, I was like, what is the chances of the contract extending at this time? And that time they said, not really. And at that point also, I was like, I really wanted to be a lead. I really wanted an opportunity to to lead a team. And I I'd seen so many incredible leads really shape my career. And I'd sadly seen some that weren't as great, you know. But I really wanted that chance. And people can fly, got in contact with me. took a chance on me. And that's kind of how it came to be, mate. And you know, like I said, almost two years will be two years in December for me that I've been there. And yeah. A very different skill set, right? Leadership management and management versus being in there. And I'm very fortunate where I still make levels as well as manage. I think that is something like I really do appreciate as as well to to do both. speaker-1: How have you taken to leadership? How have you found that that process? speaker-0: Depends who you ask, but the it's it look, mate, I've really enjoyed it. It's definitely moments of like finding your feet, right? And I think that is something where I wish I could sit here and say to everyone

listening, man, the perfect leads. But that's rubbish. That's nonsense. I'll never be that. There are some days I wake up and I think, right, I've got a better understanding of this. And there are some days I wake up and go, God, I'm I I'm drowning in this situation. It is it is tough to balance because everyone is different in terms of who you're managing. And what I don't think people realize, and especially I didn't realise until I was at that more senior and principal level, the opportunity for your team's growth and the game's growth don't always go hand in hand, right? Yeah. And you've got to manage that. And as I said, each person is different. How do you communicate with them? If you're really are like you have to love people, in my opinion, to be a good lead. Because you've got to learn What makes someone take how do I give feedback to this person? Because it's not going to work for others. We talk about cultural differences. If your team is diverse in terms of people from different parts of the world, they operate differently. So you need to understand how to communicate that. You also need to understand when's the time to have open dialogue with your team versus time of like, hey, we've got deadlines and if mistakes are made, it's on my head, not yours. So unfortunately, creative decision wise, we're just gonna go in this direction. It's not because your ideas are bad. It's because deadlines are here. And if something goes wrong, I'd rather it be my mistake than be costly on someone else, you know. So but I love it, man. I I can't like, don't be wrong, there are days that are challenging, as I say, but like I absolutely love it. There is nothing nothing better than watching my team now grow into, you know, something where I'm just so proud of. Like it honestly feels weird in the sense of like. It almost feels like sometimes I'm not needed because they're doing such an incredible job. And you're always like, damn, like am I the problem? But like it's more to watch them all grow into that and and deliver is yeah, some of the the most amazing things. You know. I definitely miss, like I said, being more hands on. I still get to do it, but it's definitely not my ownership isn't as as broad, you know, or or that. So yeah, man, I love it. It's something that I Like said, fortunate to do. I don't take it for granted because you've got people's careers here. And my saying to everyone who joins my team is always at one point we'll start working together. I hope it's not for a long time, but my hope is is whenever you leave, you feel that you've grown as a designer. That's my goal. And that's what I'm trying to deliver to, you know. And I'm like I said, it's not perfect every day, speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: but that's the end goal. speaker-1: I love that and and and I'm not sure, not everybody's cut out for leadership, right? Not everybody has the right makeup or has the right passion for it. And I think the way you describe it, that desire of trying to, just every day help people's careers grow and it's more about seeing your team shine is absolutely yeah, the right the right angle to take and yeah, and and trying to balance that with IC work is always challenging, but So I'm constant of time. there's a couple of other questions I love to ask. you know, you've you've got a very personal story about, you know, how you got into video games and and why you make video games and that's clearly fuelled you, you know, through this career and does daily. has being in game dev changed you as a person? speaker-0: Yeah, I don't it's like anything, right? I don't I don't see how it wouldn't, you know, like I think man, like the fact I get to work with such incredible people that make me feel like I'm the I'm the weakest link across the world has been so eye opening and humbling and inspiring, you know? So like I think that to me changed me and I think also the The aspect of the games is a business. And I'm not saying this in a jaded manner, but it is something that eventually you pick up on. And again, there's more of as I get older, there's more of a a balance in that. I still want that quality to be absolutely clear. I still want to give the best. everyone I work with. I know, like I said, there's only one lazy dev I've ever met in my entire career. And mate, the There's a reality in that, and especially when we're talking about in these times right now, right? I think you and I can both agree the amount of games now you see come out and instead of launch parties, as we discussed, people are saying farewell because the game didn't sell that well. Mm-hmm, And it's it's something where I wish I didn't have to care about the business side, but I think you'd be foolish not to pay attention to it. So I think it it changed a little bit of my like view of looking at certain things. as well. But as a person, yeah, man, like how I communicate is different now. I think the fact I've lived abroad, the fact I've worked with people all over the world. I'm not that same kid that was from the small town of North Yorkshire, so that's yeah, a very very big thing. speaker-1: Yeah. And I like that that pragmatism that you're talking about, right? There's an element of doesn't doesn't dampen your desire to succeed, but it does make you a bit more realistic about what you can do and and when you need to do it. speaker-0: I think you and I can both agree, mate, not every game is built with the same budget, whether that be financial, time budget, dev budget, so you make the best with what you can, and that as long as you can say that no matter the metacritic, no mat whatever the comments or whatever may be, as long as you can look in the mirror and go, Man, we gave it in the constraints we had, we gave it everything, that to me is like a victory that no one can ever, ever take away from you. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, definitely agree. And and what about your family? as you grow up in a gaming family, how do they relate

to your career and, your your what you've achieved? speaker-0: I still think some people don't get what I do. Still but like no my dad's like, you know, I love chatting about games with my dad more now 'cause like he'll be like, I've got an idea about this and like you know, he's he he loved the division, like he's thousands of hours into that. Like so you know, and that's amazing. Like my brother still plays games, Made me sad, like he loved Witcher Three, but Wasn't a fan of cyberpunk, so I was only a little bit hurt, but e g again it was yeah, it's a it's a great thing there. And I think I don't know about you, mate, but like 'cause we worked on products, right? So you've got a clear timeline of hey you're working from A to to Z in this time. I don't know how life would be if it was like I'm just going in and just doing not necessarily the same thing, but like there's no end, right? Like the the job is its own journey. And I feel very fortunate that like Man, I get to at some point I'll finish this project and at some point I'll do this project and that's really cool, you know. So yeah, it's still good. I think my sister's still a bit embarrassed of me, but like I'm always gonna be the embarrassing older brother, mate. So that's that's not changing no matter how old I get. speaker-1: Well it doesn't matter what you do. speaker-0: Exactly, exactly. So yeah. speaker-1: and on that last question, if you weren't making video games, what would you do? speaker-0: It's really tough. I don't know is the honest answer. it's a copper answer. I think look, if I wasn't gonna do this, I think I would go try as we said, the game industry's not in a great place like now. But say if I for some reason lost my job and could never get into the game industry again after crying for a while, I think I'd then I'd try to transition into like therapy, I think, like and you know, help people on that one. 'Cause I think games can be a great I don't know if you've ever heard of Psychology of Video Games is a great podcast. speaker-1: Yeah, I love that podcast. speaker-0: And I think that having that kind of element to Yeah, I guess help people, right? Like I went through tough times, so I'd love to be able to again help in some some sort of way is something that I'd look at. speaker-1: Yeah, that's what a what a great way of putting a bow on this conversation. I feel like it brings it full circle, right? That idea of being able to your day job sounds like you're powered by this ability to and this desire to give back, but then being able to im introduce video games to other folks and help them grieve and recover and find friendship and satisfaction and achievement. Yeah, well that's a that's a great message. I love that and and feels very max. That makes a lot sense. speaker-0: we're so for it, mate. speaker-1: Thank you, chat. Really appreciate your time. Great conversation. Great journey. some great experiences you've had and continue to have. So thank you for making time and speaker-0: I appreciate it, mate.