บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Psychologist Who Keeps Suic*dal Patients Alive WARNS About One Word

00:04:02,450 in whatever capacity and they're not being seen for it and 74 00:04:03,034 --> 00:04:04,827 says, I don't agree with that. 75 00:04:04,827 --> 00:04:07,497 Like, no, I'm doing all of the child care. 76 00:04:07,497 --> 00:04:10,833 Like, I don't know where like, why should I validate him? 77 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:11,960 Right. 78 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,255 And my point is always like, you don't have to agree. 79 00:04:15,922 --> 00:04:21,844 For instance, I'm a vegetarian for animal reasons and environmental reasons. 80 00:04:21,928 --> 00:04:25,306 I can easily validate somebody who eats me. 81 00:04:25,306 --> 00:04:27,141 I was a meat eater for most of my life. 82 00:04:27,141 --> 00:04:30,770 I totally understand why somebody would choose to eat meat, 83 00:04:30,812 --> 00:04:33,314 or at least I see validity in that decision. 84 00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:35,942 Okay, it's easier to order at restaurants. 85 00:04:35,942 --> 00:04:38,236 You know, some folks see some health benefits from it. 86 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:39,237 Whatever. 87 00:04:39,237 --> 00:04:43,658 If I wanted to validate somebody, I could, even though I don't agree with them. 88 00:04:43,950 --> 00:04:47,829 Okay, that distinction is so critical. 89 00:04:48,121 --> 00:04:51,416 Otherwise, you cannot have a constructive dialog 90 00:04:51,416 --> 00:04:53,418 with someone that you disagree with 91 00:04:53,418 --> 00:04:57,630 because you're just both going to be kind of waiting for the other to agree. 92 00:04:57,630 --> 00:04:59,257 And that's not going to happen. 93 00:04:59,257 --> 00:05:01,801 And therefore the dialog is stuck. 94 00:05:01,801 --> 00:05:04,554 So I think agreement is a big misconception. 95 00:05:04,554 --> 00:05:06,222 The other is praise. 96 00:05:06,222 --> 00:05:09,976 And this I think is directly a function of social media. 97 00:05:10,184 --> 00:05:14,188 Everyone's like you should not seek external validation is so bad for 98 00:05:14,272 --> 00:05:16,274 oh my gosh, you're so needy. 99 00:05:16,274 --> 00:05:19,444 You're so you know you need to validate yourself. 100 00:05:19,444 --> 00:05:21,696 And yes, that's true, that's true. 101 00:05:21,696 --> 00:05:25,575 But validation is just a signal of acceptance, right? 102 00:05:25,616 --> 00:05:27,368 It's a sense of belonging. 103 00:05:27,368 --> 00:05:30,371 When you think about it in those terms, it seems pretty obvious 104 00:05:30,371 --> 00:05:31,622 that everybody should. 105 00:05:31,622 --> 00:05:36,627 And everybody would seek belonging, and everybody wants to be seen. 106 00:05:36,627 --> 00:05:41,591 And there's nothing pathological about that or problematic about that. 107 00:05:41,591 --> 00:05:43,051 Praise is a judgment. 108 00:05:43,051 --> 00:05:44,927 Praise says like, good job. 109 00:05:44,927 --> 00:05:46,054 Nice work. 110 00:05:46,054 --> 00:05:46,763 Right. 111 00:05:46,763 --> 00:05:49,891 Validation is more along the lines of 112 00:05:49,891 --> 00:05:53,811 I accept you independent of how you look or perform. 113 00:05:54,062 --> 00:05:54,270 Right. 114 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:57,273 It's a it's a it's a small distinction, but it's a critical 115 00:05:58,066 --> 00:05:59,776 Let's talk about social media. 116 00:05:59,776 --> 00:06:01,861 You mentioned social media. 117 00:06:01,861 --> 00:06:04,781 Are people getting validation from social media? 118 00:06:04,781 --> 00:06:06,240 Are they getting the opposite? 119 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:07,867 They're mostly getting the opposite. 120 00:06:07,867 --> 00:06:11,287 So all of the like harder when you post a bikini pic. 121 00:06:11,287 --> 00:06:13,956 And these types of things. This is praise. 122 00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:15,500 And the problem with praise 123 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:19,379 is that you typically have to exceed expectations to receive it. 124 00:06:19,545 --> 00:06:22,507 And so you end up in this filter culture, 125 00:06:22,507 --> 00:06:26,344 right, where we're constantly trying to like, outdo each other. 126 00:06:26,469 --> 00:06:30,807 Outperform to get the clicks and the likes. 127 00:06:30,932 --> 00:06:32,642 I did this 128 00:06:32,642 --> 00:06:37,230 kind of it felt very vulnerable to me thing to do on social media where I had 129 00:06:38,231 --> 00:06:40,525 sorry, I hope this isn't too deep, but I had 130 00:06:40,525 --> 00:06:44,445 I had breast cancer a couple of years ago, and I went through chemotherapy 131 00:06:44,445 --> 00:06:49,200 and I had lost all my hair, and when my hair came back, it looked fine. 132 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,329 I'm sure to like most people, but to me it just wasn't my hair. 133 00:06:53,329 --> 00:06:56,165 I just didn't it didn't feel right. 134 00:06:56,165 --> 00:07:00,169 And I'd taken a picture of myself like a selfie for something 135 00:07:00,169 --> 00:07:05,508 that I was promoting for the book and I posted on social media, and I said, 136 00:07:05,758 --> 00:07:11,013 I'm wondering if folks can give me I'm seeking external validation, right? 137 00:07:11,055 --> 00:07:13,599 I don't want praise. 138 00:07:13,599 --> 00:07:18,062 What I'm seeking is validation around the fact that this picture 139 00:07:18,062 --> 00:07:21,566 might look fine to plenty of people, and people can heart it 140 00:07:21,566 --> 00:07:25,278 and say, you look great, but I don't actually want to hear that. 141 00:07:25,486 --> 00:07:29,907 I want validation around the fact that, like, this just doesn't feel like me, 142 00:07:30,241 --> 00:07:34,912 and I'm sad, and I feel super shallow for saying that at the same time, 143 00:07:34,912 --> 00:07:38,833 because I'm healthy now, I should be grateful. 144 00:07:38,875 --> 00:07:44,839 And yet I'm just having this moment where I feel bad and I don't like what I see. 145 00:07:45,173 --> 00:07:48,050 And I'm wondering if I could get some validation. 146 00:07:48,050 -->

00:07:52,430 And it was this really interesting, kind of like social exercise, 147 00:07:52,430 --> 00:07:56,017 because about two thirds of folks actually responded 148 00:07:56,017 --> 00:07:59,103 with validation in that they said things like, 149 00:07:59,604 --> 00:08:03,191 I can only imagine how that must feel, 150 00:08:03,274 --> 00:08:07,653 and like it makes total sense that this would feel like a, you know, 151 00:08:07,695 --> 00:08:12,241 a vanity thing, even though it's something that's so deep to your identity. 152 00:08:12,408 --> 00:08:15,203 People just said really touching and moving things. 153 00:08:15,203 --> 00:08:18,873 And then about a quarter of folks were like, but you look awesome 154 00:08:19,081 --> 00:08:23,586 and like, so hot and like, did all this stuff, which was like, fine. 155 00:08:23,628 --> 00:08:27,048 But man, that external validation. 156 00:08:27,298 --> 00:08:28,549 People saying, like, 157 00:08:28,549 --> 00:08:31,844 I think it makes total sense that you're struggling with this and 158 00:08:31,844 --> 00:08:35,014 it is hard and it doesn't matter how many years it's been, 159 00:08:35,014 --> 00:08:39,185 and it doesn't matter how whatever it looks like, it doesn't feel like you. 160 00:08:39,185 --> 00:08:40,895 And that's hard. 161 00:08:40,895 --> 00:08:45,608 It's hard to look in the mirror and see the ashes of your disease, 162 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:50,613 you know, like those types of words in response to that experience 163 00:08:50,821 --> 00:08:53,824 that feels restorative, 164 00:08:53,866 --> 00:08:56,827 that fosters healing, at least for me. 165 00:08:56,827 --> 00:09:00,164 It makes me feel less crazy and less alone in the world. 166 00:09:00,206 --> 00:09:00,998 Right? 167 00:09:00,998 --> 00:09:03,584 Like, I mean, there's potential in social media to do that. 168 00:09:03,584 --> 00:09:05,378 These are just strangers who are saying these things 169 00:09:05,378 --> 00:09:07,046 that are deeply speaking to me. 170 00:09:07,046 --> 00:09:12,218 But that's that's what I'm talking about when I say external validation, right? 171 00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:15,263 It's the seeing the other person's experience. 172 00:09:15,304 --> 00:09:16,764 That must have been hard for you. 173 00:09:16,764 --> 00:09:20,685 It was it felt vulnerable to put it out there, 174 00:09:21,352 --> 00:09:24,480 mostly because I thought people were going to think 175 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,399 I was like fishing for compliments, right? 176 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:29,694 There's that again because of the language here, 177 00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:32,697 but it was actually really powerful and moving. 178 00:09:32,697 --> 00:09:36,033 It honestly felt like restorative, 179 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,287 like I felt very seen and like grateful. 180 00:09:40,246 --> 00:09:42,164 do you get emotional when you're reading those comments? 181 00:09:42,164 --> 00:09:45,418 Yeah, I did

and I like shared them with folks again, 182 00:09:45,459 --> 00:09:48,754 literally for the person who wrote the book on validation 183 00:09:49,630 --> 00:09:52,717 and who was point blank asking for it, right? 184 00:09:52,758 --> 00:09:56,012 It's still surprising to me how moving it can be, right? 185 00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:58,764 And speaking to that, you've written that feeling. 186 00:09:58,764 --> 00:10:00,141 Understood. 187 00:10:00,141 --> 00:10:03,060 Lights up the same reward centers in the brain 188 00:10:03,060 --> 00:10:06,522 as opioids, orgasms and cash. 189 00:10:06,772 --> 00:10:07,440 Yeah. 190 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,110 Walk me through what is actually happening in my head 191 00:10:11,152 --> 00:10:13,279 the moment someone truly gets me. 192 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:15,823 Yeah, it's the dopaminergic system. Right. 193 00:10:15,823 --> 00:10:17,408 So it's a hit of dopamine. 194 00:10:17,408 --> 00:10:21,996 And if we look at kind of why why did we adapt 195 00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:26,208 to respond this way to feeling seen or connected? 196 00:10:26,208 --> 00:10:28,544 We survive in tribes. 197 00:10:28,544 --> 00:10:31,589 We're not cats. We don't go off on our own. 198 00:10:31,589 --> 00:10:35,718 We evolved together and we learned 199 00:10:35,718 --> 00:10:39,221 to survive through families and clans. 200 00:10:39,555 --> 00:10:43,684 so being a part of a clan is a pretty important thing, right? 201 00:10:43,726 --> 00:10:48,522 And feeling accepted into that group is pretty critical to our survival. 202 00:10:48,522 --> 00:10:54,695 And so we seek out experiences in which we feel connected and seen. 203 00:10:54,695 --> 00:10:58,366 Those relationships feel safe to us, they feel rewarding to us, 204 00:10:58,366 --> 00:11:02,161 and our brains respond to them so that we are drawn to them. 205 00:11:02,161 --> 00:11:04,121 And we stay close to those people. 206 00:11:04,121 --> 00:11:07,541 We get a little hit, right? It feels good. 207 00:11:07,583 --> 00:11:11,545 I think every single person who's listening to this has had that experience 208 00:11:11,545 --> 00:11:15,341 of just connecting with someone, and it's a good feeling, right? 209 00:11:15,383 --> 00:11:21,430 That is the internal mechanism by which this stuff works. 210 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:24,225 But there's great potential there, obviously. Right. 211 00:11:24,225 --> 00:11:27,645 Like that's a powerful thing to be able to affect in the same way that, 212 00:11:27,687 --> 00:11:32,483 you know, money, orgasms and opioids can drive behavior. 213 00:11:32,483 --> 00:11:33,984 So can feeling accepted. 214 00:11:33,984 --> 00:11:36,737 So we're wired to for validation. 215 00:11:36,737 --> 00:11:38,322 We're wired to seek it yet. 216 00:11:38,322 --> 00:11:41,784 And then we're I don't know, oriented away from like told 217 00:11:41,784 --> 00:11:44,995 that that's a really bad thing to seek, which is, I think, confusing. 218 00:11:45,204 --> 00:11:47,415 I do this experiment sometimes with folks where I'm like, 219 00:11:47,415 --> 00:11:49,667 should you validate people that you love? 220 00:11:49,667 --> 00:11:50,918 Yes, of course. 221 00:11:50,918 --> 00:11:52,670 So good for relationships. Yes. 222 00:11:52,670 --> 00:11:54,046 Should you seek validation? 223 00:11:54,046 --> 00:11:57,550 No no no no no. That's weak, that's shallow. 224 00:11:57,591 --> 00:12:02,555 That's you know, and that to me suggests just a fundamental misunderstanding. 225 00:12:02,638 --> 00:12:02,930 Right. 226 00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:05,182 We can't say that it's really this is an important thing 227 00:12:05,182 --> 00:12:06,267 to bring to relationships, 228 00:12:06,267 --> 00:12:10,020 but an unhealthy thing to expect from them like that seems backwards. 229 00:12:10,354 --> 00:12:12,148 If it is that rewarding. 230 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:14,275 You're basically 231 00:12:14,275 --> 00:12:17,820 describing a drug that I can hand out for free. 232 00:12:18,028 --> 00:12:20,197 What does that do to a person over time? 233 00:12:20,197 --> 00:12:24,660 I think the really interesting thing, the flip on that question is to look 234 00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:27,788 at what invalidation does to people over time. 235 00:12:28,622 --> 00:12:32,418 Invalidation I think is the most caustic 236 00:12:32,835 --> 00:12:38,174 communication pattern that nobody is talking about. 237 00:12:38,257 --> 00:12:39,550 Invalidation. 238 00:12:39,550 --> 00:12:43,596 Folks who come from environments that are highly invalidating are significantly 239 00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:47,433 more likely to suffer from just about every single mental health disorder 240 00:12:47,433 --> 00:12:48,434 you can imagine. 241 00:12:48,434 --> 00:12:52,188 The more invalidating an environment is, the more person will struggle. 242 00:12:52,188 --> 00:12:54,064 It's that black and white. 243 00:12:54,064 --> 00:12:56,025 This stuff is caustic. 244 00:12:56,025 --> 00:13:01,864 It's highly pervasive in the homes of serial killers. 245 00:13:01,906 --> 00:13:03,991 This is a pattern that you commonly see. 246 00:13:03,991 --> 00:13:05,618 It's a profile that they would look for. 247 00:13:05,618 --> 00:13:09,747 Behavioral psychologists would look for a history of pervasive invalidation. 248 00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:14,168 It's predictive of that type of psychopathology. 249 00:13:14,376 --> 00:13:19,006 Again, borderline personality disorder PTSD, depression. 250 00:13:19,048 --> 00:13:22,051 Right. This is really nasty stuff. 251 00:13:22,468 --> 00:13:26,555 When you see somebody who is inundated with validation, 252 00:13:26,597 --> 00:13:32,061 validation, kids who grow up feeling like their emotions are valid, 253 00:13:32,102 --> 00:13:36,899 that their experiences are real, they learn to trust their intuition. 254 00:13:37,149 --> 00:13:40,152 They are better able to validate

themselves. 255 00:13:40,194 --> 00:13:44,114 They trust their experience even when the environment says, 256 00:13:44,114 --> 00:13:46,283 you shouldn't feel that way. 257 00:13:47,493 --> 00:13:50,246 We expect people to be able to validate themselves, 258 00:13:50,246 --> 00:13:53,582 and yet we don't prioritize 259 00:13:53,582 --> 00:13:56,585 modeling that. And, 260 00:13:56,836 --> 00:14:01,173 you know, teaching that in any real way, which I always find very interesting. 261 00:14:01,757 --> 00:14:04,677 guys, we've been so passionate about finding the biggest geniuses, 262 00:14:04,677 --> 00:14:06,762 and this is just one of the many episodes. 263 00:14:06,762 --> 00:14:08,764 If you want to make sure you don't miss the next one. 264 00:14:08,764 --> 00:14:10,057 Make sure to subscribe. 265 00:14:10,057 --> 00:14:11,851 All right, let's get back to the episode. 266 00:14:11,851 --> 00:14:16,105 if you're going back and forth with your spouse, your friend, your child, 267 00:14:16,105 --> 00:14:17,898 and you're maybe in your head 268 00:14:17,898 --> 00:14:21,777 one of those type of people that just is maybe arguing to try to win a point. 269 00:14:21,777 --> 00:14:25,322 Sure I'm harming the other person by trying to get my point across 270 00:14:25,322 --> 00:14:28,325 and not letting them feel heard and validated. 271 00:14:28,367 --> 00:14:28,784 That's right. 272 00:14:28,784 --> 00:14:30,077 It's a matter of degrees, right? 273 00:14:30,077 --> 00:14:32,246 So saying something like walk it off. 274 00:14:32,246 --> 00:14:34,456 That's a pretty invalidating statement. 275 00:14:34,456 --> 00:14:38,794 That can be pretty devastating depending on what you're telling them to walk off. 276 00:14:38,794 --> 00:14:41,088 Right. Boys don't cry. 277 00:14:42,214 --> 00:14:43,716 Stuff those emotions. 278 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:45,134 You're too old for this. 279 00:14:45,134 --> 00:14:48,345 That's something I have had come out of my mouth, right? 280 00:14:48,596 --> 00:14:51,640 Basically, you should not be feeling the way you're feeling. 281 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:54,059 You should have outgrown this. Now. 282 00:14:54,059 --> 00:14:59,064 It would be totally fair for me to say throwing things at 12 is not appropriate. 283 00:14:59,064 --> 00:15:01,525 That behavior does not make sense. 284 00:15:01,525 --> 00:15:05,404 Being frustrated and upset is valid, right? 285 00:15:05,446 --> 00:15:09,950 There's and this is where kind of the method comes into play. 286 00:15:09,992 --> 00:15:13,162 This is where the training is helpful because people are like 287 00:15:13,203 --> 00:15:16,999 I don't want a valid I don't think it's great to be validating my 12 year 288 00:15:17,041 --> 00:15:18,542 old who's throwing stuff right. 289 00:15:18,542 --> 00:15:23,047 Like that doesn't seem productive 100%, I totally agree. 290 00:15:23,213 --> 00:15:23,964 All right. 291 00:15:23,964 --> 00:15:26,216 That behavior is ineffective. 292 00:15:26,216 --> 00:15:27,801 That behavior is invalid. 293 00:15:27,801 --> 00:15:30,971 But my job is to find the kernel of truth in their experience 294 00:15:30,971 --> 00:15:32,473 to find the validity in it. 295 00:15:32,473 --> 00:15:36,185 Because if you believe in cause and effect, then you know 296 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:38,228 that there is a reason for everything. 297 00:15:38,228 --> 00:15:41,190 There is some validity in everything. 298 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:45,694 My job is to focus on that first, and then I am better able to change 299 00:15:45,694 --> 00:15:50,574 or challenge what is in effect of that's kind of the the art there. 300 00:15:50,574 --> 00:15:52,576 So let's take that example because we both 301 00:15:52,576 --> 00:15:55,371 we were talking before this and we both have children. 302 00:15:55,371 --> 00:15:56,413 We both have a 12 year old. 303 00:15:56,413 --> 00:16:00,209 So if our 12 year old, one of ours does something that's a 12 year old 304 00:16:00,209 --> 00:16:03,379 shouldn't do, you said throwing something, hitting a sibling, 305 00:16:03,379 --> 00:16:06,215 I don't know, something that you're like, come on, you're too old for 306 00:16:06,215 --> 00:16:09,343 what's the right response to validate, but also maybe 307 00:16:09,343 --> 00:16:12,596 let them know, hey, this isn't something a 12 year old should be doing. 308 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:13,847 Can we make this, like, real? 309 00:16:13,847 --> 00:16:17,226 Because I just, I. Let's do it 100%. Yeah. 310 00:16:17,267 --> 00:16:22,815 I came with my daughter, who's 12, and we are from Northern California. 311 00:16:22,856 --> 00:16:27,194 She's, I would say had a relatively privileged life. 312 00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:30,489 Okay. She did not want to come to LA. 313 00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:34,034 She would much rather go somewhere cooler for her vacation. 314 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:38,539 Right now, you and I are, like, immediately rolling our eyes 315 00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:40,124 like you get to go. 316 00:16:40,124 --> 00:16:41,917 You know, from my perspective, I'm 317 00:16:41,917 --> 00:16:45,713 thinking like, look at everything that's going on in the world, right? 318 00:16:45,754 --> 00:16:47,589 You are so grateful. 319 00:16:47,589 --> 00:16:49,883 We are. You're an only child. 320 00:16:49,883 --> 00:16:52,803 We are planning an itinerary around what you want to do. 321 00:16:52,803 --> 00:16:53,470 You know, like, 322 00:16:53,470 --> 00:16:56,682 can you imagine as a kid, at least for me, as I was a child of three, 323 00:16:56,682 --> 00:16:58,142 there was no world in which my parents were like, 324 00:16:58,142 --> 00:17:00,019 what do you want to do this right? 325 00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:03,105 Like, let's make sure and eat at the place you want to go to? No. 326 00:17:03,397 --> 00:17:07,901 But she's she's doesn't want to go. 327 00:17:07,943 --> 00:17:09,236 She's

frustrated. 328 00:17:09,236 --> 00:17:10,571 She wants to stay back and hang 329 00:17:10,571 --> 00:17:13,574 with her friends because she's 12 now, which is essentially 17. 330 00:17:13,574 --> 00:17:16,410 Right. And she 331 00:17:17,411 --> 00:17:20,664 let's just, let's imagine that she starts 332 00:17:20,664 --> 00:17:24,376 to kind of have a fit about this and say, I don't want to go. 333 00:17:24,418 --> 00:17:26,712 Why do you guys make me do this? I don't want to do this. 334 00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:29,631 This is not fair. All right. 335 00:17:29,631 --> 00:17:32,217 In my opinion, from where I'm 336 00:17:32,217 --> 00:17:37,056 sitting, yelling at your parents who you're then going to ask you 337 00:17:37,056 --> 00:17:40,017 to, you know, buy things for you while you're there. 338 00:17:40,017 --> 00:17:44,855 It's not super valid or effective for behavior. 339 00:17:44,855 --> 00:17:48,776 We say behavior is valid when it is effective in the long term. 340 00:17:48,901 --> 00:17:49,485 Okay. 341 00:17:49,485 --> 00:17:52,154 In terms of someone's goals and values, 342 00:17:52,154 --> 00:17:55,699 one of her goals most definitely is to get stuff in LA when she's with us. 343 00:17:55,699 --> 00:17:58,660 So I'm going to call that behavior ineffective. 344 00:17:58,660 --> 00:18:01,455 I also see it as invalid 345 00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:04,458 in the sense that she is so privileged. 346 00:18:04,625 --> 00:18:07,878 I recently had cancer. 347 00:18:07,878 --> 00:18:11,965 I think my family has a very real sense of how precious life 348 00:18:11,965 --> 00:18:16,136 is, and I have an almost visceral response to this. 349 00:18:16,136 --> 00:18:19,515 Like, you know, I don't want to spend time with you. 350 00:18:19,515 --> 00:18:20,516 I don't want to. 351 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:24,353 As if all this time that we have on the earth is endless, right? 352 00:18:24,645 --> 00:18:27,606 And so I have this, like, 353 00:18:27,731 --> 00:18:30,692 I want to shut that down reaction. 354 00:18:30,692 --> 00:18:35,239 But if I step back, I also think, okay, she's 12 now, 355 00:18:35,405 --> 00:18:39,451 it is developmentally appropriate for a kid that age to want to spend time 356 00:18:39,451 --> 00:18:42,454 primarily with their friends and not with their parents, 357 00:18:42,454 --> 00:18:46,250 and to not be in a car for however many hours with their parents. 358 00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:51,755 I also know that this child has never been outside of the country. 359 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,882 She's never seen a third world country. 360 00:18:53,882 --> 00:18:55,759 She's never seen a war situation. 361 00:18:55,759 --> 00:18:58,137 She's never seen real poverty. 362 00:18:58,137 --> 00:19:02,724 I can try and educate her on those things, but she has no real sense of that. 363 00:19:02,724 --> 00:19:05,310 And is that her fault? 364 00:19:05,310 --> 00:19:08,897 No, arguably it's probably mine if anybody's right. 365 00:19:09,106 --> 00:19:12,776 So her lack of perspective and the fact 366 00:19:12,776 --> 00:19:16,363 that she can't connect those dots, that's totally valid. 367 00:19:16,572 --> 00:19:21,243 If anything, it seems irrational for me to expect her to be able to 368 00:19:21,535 --> 00:19:25,330 if anybody is being kind of irrational in terms of their response 369 00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:28,500 here or their expectations, I should say I think it would be me. 370 00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:32,004 So what I can say is, 371 00:19:32,004 --> 00:19:36,550 and what I did say in this made up situation was 372 00:19:36,550 --> 00:19:38,635 it makes total sense that you want to spend time 373 00:19:38,635 --> 00:19:40,929 with your friends and you want to stay here. 374 00:19:40,929 --> 00:19:43,724 If I were you at 12, I think I would want the same thing. 375 00:19:43,724 --> 00:19:45,851 I would not have wanted to be in the car with my parents 376 00:19:45,851 --> 00:19:49,438 for however long, doing things that I didn't particularly want to do. 377 00:19:49,646 --> 00:19:51,273 That's valid. 378 00:19:51,273 --> 00:19:53,817 And then I said, it's also the fact 379 00:19:53,817 --> 00:19:56,820 that you are going to want things from us when you're there, 380 00:19:56,862 --> 00:20:01,909 and pitching a fit before we go isn't a super effective way to get stuff. 381 00:20:01,950 --> 00:20:04,703 It doesn't make me want to buy stuff for you. 382 00:20:04,703 --> 00:20:09,124 I also want to remind you that our time with each other is limited. 383 00:20:09,291 --> 00:20:10,834 That's a fact. 384 00:20:10,834 --> 00:20:13,795 It's it's a sad fact, but it's one that we understand. 385 00:20:13,795 --> 00:20:14,755 And that understanding 386 00:20:14,755 --> 00:20:19,092 is actually a gift because it allows us to look at these experiences differently. 387 00:20:19,259 --> 00:20:22,262 And I, for one, am grateful for that. 388 00:20:22,346 --> 00:20:25,474 And I think we can make something important out of this. 389 00:20:26,099 --> 00:20:28,477 So I'm kind of correcting in this moment. 390 00:20:28,477 --> 00:20:31,605 And I think I was I ultimately was a bit more clear here. 391 00:20:31,605 --> 00:20:33,440 You keep complaining. 392 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,943 This is not going to be the trip you want it to be, right? 393 00:20:35,943 --> 00:20:39,696 That behavior is not going to is not the path to getting what you want. 394 00:20:39,738 --> 00:20:40,822 And you keep it up. 395 00:20:40,822 --> 00:20:42,783 And this is going to be a worse trip for you. 396 00:20:42,783 --> 00:20:44,159 Very clear message there, 397 00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:47,162 while at the same time saying, I see where you're coming from. 398 00:20:47,162 --> 00:20:48,705 It's valid. 399 00:20:48,705 --> 00:20:50,123 Does that make sense? It does. 400 00:20:50,123 --> 00:20:54,002 And I think one of the things for potential parents out

there listening 401 00:20:54,002 --> 00:20:57,089 that could be hard is you told you said you. 402 00:20:57,214 --> 00:21:01,468 After she said what she said, you kind of took a step back and took a moment 403 00:21:01,468 --> 00:21:04,972 because I know a lot of people's initial reaction and instinct 404 00:21:04,972 --> 00:21:10,060 in the moment is to bounce back aggressively or just without validation. 405 00:21:10,102 --> 00:21:10,727 Right. 406 00:21:10,727 --> 00:21:12,980 So how important is that? 407 00:21:12,980 --> 00:21:14,690 Hold on. Let me take a step back. 408 00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:17,693 And is that repetition or how do you 409 00:21:18,318 --> 00:21:20,821 how do you get to that place where you can take a step back 410 00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:23,824 in those situations and pause before you actually react? 411 00:21:23,824 --> 00:21:27,577 So that way you can come with validation in addition to reasoning. 412 00:21:27,828 --> 00:21:29,079 Very good point. 413 00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:32,833 I want to state for the record that I don't always do that. 414 00:21:32,874 --> 00:21:37,879 I think that's really important because this is a practice. 415 00:21:37,879 --> 00:21:39,631 I really do look at this stuff, 416 00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:42,259 almost like meditation or like a mindfulness practice. 417 00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:44,553 It's something you aspire to. You don't always succeed at it. 418 00:21:44,553 --> 00:21:46,847 Okay, that's first and foremost. 419 00:21:46,847 --> 00:21:49,224 But second, this is my training. 420 00:21:49,224 --> 00:21:51,476 It is my job. 421 00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:54,688 And it has been my job to have 422 00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:59,818 folks come at me with what seems like radically ineffective behavior, 423 00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:05,866 radically offensive communication, and to have to, like, pause. 424 00:22:05,907 --> 00:22:09,328 And when I feel myself like starting to have that reaction, 425 00:22:09,328 --> 00:22:13,290 it is almost like a mindfulness bell within me to like, okay, slow, slow, slow, 426 00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:18,128 slow, rotate the snow globe like I'm looking at it through one 427 00:22:18,128 --> 00:22:23,467 angle and I need to kind of like really try and see what else is valid here, 428 00:22:23,467 --> 00:22:26,636 because I can feel like my line 429 00:22:26,678 --> 00:22:29,890 of vision, like narrowing and I need to expand it. 430 00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:32,976 So that is a pretty critical catch that like 431 00:22:32,976 --> 00:22:36,813 I needed to take a step back and I often will. 432 00:22:36,855 --> 00:22:39,232 I'll often just say, like, I'm going to go upstairs. 433 00:22:39,232 --> 00:22:40,776 If you follow me, it'll be bad. 434 00:22:41,943 --> 00:22:42,486 She hasn't. 435 00:22:42,486 --> 00:22:44,404 It has been. 436 00:22:44,404 --> 00:22:45,364 Okay, let's talk about science. 437 00:22:45,364 --> 00:22:48,784 What is the science say is the one thing 438 00:22:48,784 --> 00:22:51,870 that makes anyone trust you instantly? 439 00:22:51,953 --> 00:22:53,955 Anybody trust you instantly? 440 00:22:53,955 --> 00:22:56,958 Well, yes, it would be a feeling heard. 441 00:22:57,501 --> 00:23:00,337 So the research on this is so fun. 442 00:23:00,337 --> 00:23:03,423 And you know, I set out to write this book 443 00:23:03,423 --> 00:23:07,469 based on my training, which was primarily from clinical psychology. 444 00:23:07,469 --> 00:23:11,431 And then I had to do all this research, and I found that everyone has pretty 445 00:23:11,431 --> 00:23:12,349 much been studying 446 00:23:12,349 --> 00:23:15,894 this same concept of validation under a bunch of different terms. 447 00:23:15,936 --> 00:23:16,561 Right. 448 00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:19,481 And one of the ways it's been studied 449 00:23:19,481 --> 00:23:23,735 is as like rapport, which is basically 450 00:23:23,735 --> 00:23:27,572 signaling that you accept and understand another person's perspective. 451 00:23:27,739 --> 00:23:30,283 This is what I call validation, right? 452 00:23:30,283 --> 00:23:34,996 And when they use rapport methods with political detainees, 453 00:23:35,038 --> 00:23:38,959 specifically suspected terrorists, what they found 454 00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:42,712 was that those rapport methods were significantly 455 00:23:42,712 --> 00:23:45,715 more effective at getting honest communication 456 00:23:45,715 --> 00:23:50,512 and reliable data from the individual 457 00:23:50,554 --> 00:23:54,808 than, say, torture or more aggressive tactics. 458 00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:55,809 Right? 459 00:23:55,809 --> 00:24:00,063 The same happens to be true for teenagers as we were just talking. 460 00:24:00,105 --> 00:24:05,152 When kids trust that their parents will be validating, they are more likely 461 00:24:05,152 --> 00:24:09,698 to tell the honest version of what's going on for them, 462 00:24:09,906 --> 00:24:14,494 rather than the kind of gee version trailer that they give. 463 00:24:14,494 --> 00:24:16,788 When you ask, how was your day? Right? 464 00:24:16,788 --> 00:24:20,167 And they've done studies on this, and it's really interesting. 465 00:24:20,167 --> 00:24:21,042 If they predict that 466 00:24:21,042 --> 00:24:24,087 the parent will be validating, they are more likely to be honest 467 00:24:24,087 --> 00:24:24,713 and real. 468 00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:29,718 When they anticipate invalidation, they censor, okay. 469 00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:34,055 It's not it's not I mean, on some level, it's very intuitive, right? 470 00:24:34,097 --> 00:24:36,224 If we if we expect to be met with judgments, 471 00:24:36,224 --> 00:24:37,809 we're going to sense for what we say. 472 00:24:37,809 --> 00:24:40,645 If we expect to be met with acceptance and understanding, 473 00:24:40,645 --> 00:24:41,980 we're more likely to talk. 474 00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:47,444 It's just it's a

truth serum in my I kind of that's my way of 475 00:24:48,069 --> 00:24:51,406 wrapping up this research very neatly is just to say that it really does 476 00:24:51,406 --> 00:24:52,949 function as a truth serum. 477 00:24:52,949 --> 00:24:55,952 People just tend to open up when they expect to be heard. 478 00:24:55,952 --> 00:24:56,453 Yeah, it's 479 00:24:56,453 --> 00:24:58,997 I feel like it's not rocket science, but I feel like almost 480 00:24:58,997 --> 00:25:03,084 no one actually thinks about it and practices it It's not just something 481 00:25:03,084 --> 00:25:03,793 we can talk about. 482 00:25:03,793 --> 00:25:06,671 Someone can listen to this show and oh, I'm going to go do that tomorrow. 483 00:25:06,671 --> 00:25:08,423 No, you have to practice it because it's not something 484 00:25:08,423 --> 00:25:10,425 that you can just turn on and off forever. 485 00:25:10,425 --> 00:25:11,927 It's something you have to practice. 486 00:25:11,927 --> 00:25:12,928 You have to practice. 487 00:25:12,928 --> 00:25:16,473 But here's the cool thing about this is that we are in constant communication 488 00:25:16,473 --> 00:25:17,182 with each other. 489 00:25:17,182 --> 00:25:22,479 So unlike, say, meditation where you really have to sit and do a, 490 00:25:22,687 --> 00:25:27,526 you know, seated practice, eyes closed, lights off for however much time it's 491 00:25:27,567 --> 00:25:30,570 you have like endless opportunity to work on this stuff. 492 00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:34,699 I was again trained in it in the context of therapy, 493 00:25:34,741 --> 00:25:37,827 which I was doing a lot of, and so I had a lot of repetition there. 494 00:25:37,827 --> 00:25:41,122 But it's equally as effective with your kids 495 00:25:41,122 --> 00:25:44,751 as I'm describing in corporate settings in the work that I do there. 496 00:25:44,751 --> 00:25:48,338 And so, yes, it takes a lot of practice. 497 00:25:48,338 --> 00:25:51,007 I would say more importantly, it takes intention 498 00:25:51,007 --> 00:25:55,512 because the opportunities to practice, there's plenty right there everywhere. 499 00:25:55,887 --> 00:25:59,307 The bigger challenge is remembering to do it 500 00:25:59,307 --> 00:26:03,061 and then bringing that willingness when you're in front of a 12 year 501 00:26:03,103 --> 00:26:04,187 old who's complaining about 502 00:26:04,187 --> 00:26:06,815 not wanting to go on a great trip, that you're planning them. 503 00:26:06,815 --> 00:26:07,941 And you're very precise. 504 00:26:07,941 --> 00:26:12,320 That validation, it's not praise, it's not problem solving. 505 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,114 It's not necessarily agreement. 506 00:26:14,114 --> 00:26:18,743 Of those three, which one do smart, successful people get wrong? 507 00:26:18,785 --> 00:26:21,746 The most. Probably problem solving? 508 00:26:21,746 --> 00:26:25,458 I would say especially so if I start to look at like the 509 00:26:25,458 --> 00:26:30,922

in my corporate work, because we assume and it is our job to solve problems 510 00:26:30,922 --> 00:26:35,885 there, we tend to respond to every issue with problem solving. 511 00:26:35,885 --> 00:26:38,888 And so an employee 512 00:26:38,888 --> 00:26:42,142 comes to their manager frustrated with another team, 513 00:26:42,142 --> 00:26:46,771 and the manager responds with, well, have you tried pinging them every day? 514 00:26:47,147 --> 00:26:48,398 Yes, I've ping them every day. 515 00:26:48,398 --> 00:26:51,109 It's just more than, well, have you tried this? 516 00:26:51,109 --> 00:26:52,235 Well, have you tried that? 517 00:26:52,235 --> 00:26:55,905 And really, what the person is seeking is validation. 518 00:26:56,072 --> 00:26:57,157 They want to here. 519 00:26:57,157 --> 00:26:59,951 Yes. This team can be really difficult. 520 00:26:59,951 --> 00:27:01,244 I get that, 521 00:27:02,412 --> 00:27:02,704 you know. 522 00:27:02,704 --> 00:27:05,624 How long have you been at it with them? What's going on? 523 00:27:05,624 --> 00:27:08,668 They want to feel heard before they can even 524 00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:12,005 be in the right headspace to take feedback and problem solve. 525 00:27:12,297 --> 00:27:17,469 But smart intellectual folks, they see a problem 526 00:27:17,469 --> 00:27:18,803 and they want to solve it. 527 00:27:18,803 --> 00:27:23,683 It's really hard to just, like, sit on their proverbial hands and 528 00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:26,936 and listen and accept. 529 00:27:27,437 --> 00:27:32,025 It's just counterintuitive, even though it's way more effective in the long run. 530 00:27:32,067 --> 00:27:34,778 Oftentimes not always, but often. interesting. 531 00:27:34,778 --> 00:27:39,658 And do you think it's is it slightly different between male and female meaning? 532 00:27:39,699 --> 00:27:42,410 I had a conversation with Doctor Orion Turban, 533 00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:45,538 and he mentioned that when a male is talking 534 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:49,125 to a male, you just repeat back what the other male says to you. 535 00:27:49,167 --> 00:27:50,293 They'll feel heard. 536 00:27:50,293 --> 00:27:57,425 But when a male is talking to a female that they want to feel like you understand 537 00:27:57,425 --> 00:28:01,721 how they feel, just repeating back to them what they say isn't necessarily enough, 538 00:28:01,721 --> 00:28:05,225 but showing them that you know how they feel makes them feel heard. 539 00:28:05,225 --> 00:28:07,644 Is it different talking to male and female, or is it similar? 540 00:28:07,644 --> 00:28:08,353 So he's 541 00:28:08,353 --> 00:28:11,272 actually talking about a validation skill there that we call copying. 542 00:28:11,272 --> 00:28:13,983 Right. So it's a low level validation skill. 543 00:28:13,983 --> 00:28:19,322 You basically just repeat without obviously doing it. 544 00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:22,659 None of this like big, I hear you saying, but rather you say

something. 545 00:28:22,659 --> 00:28:24,494 I kind of summarize it. 546 00:28:24,494 --> 00:28:28,373 I think the point he's trying to make is that women are often seeking 547 00:28:28,373 --> 00:28:31,918 emotional validation versus perhaps 548 00:28:32,377 --> 00:28:35,130 kind of reasoning or logical validation. 549 00:28:35,130 --> 00:28:38,550 So I could validate someone's logic and say like, yeah, 550 00:28:38,717 --> 00:28:41,803 I can repeat basically the argument you've made, 551 00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:47,809 all I could try and read the emotion behind that argument, I would say, 552 00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:50,395 you know, I'm actually 553 00:28:50,395 --> 00:28:54,232 kind of split on this, and it's purely based on my work with couples, 554 00:28:54,357 --> 00:28:58,319 because I often have a heterosexual working with heterosexual couples. 555 00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:04,200 And for whatever reason, the folks I tend to see, I often the female partner 556 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,748 is often the more emotional and often the one wanting to come to therapy. 557 00:29:09,789 --> 00:29:10,415 Okay. 558 00:29:10,415 --> 00:29:15,336 And the male partner is often I'm in Silicon Valley as well. 559 00:29:15,336 --> 00:29:19,007 So it's a lot of like engineer types, a lot of very problem 560 00:29:19,007 --> 00:29:22,802 solving, logical, logically oriented folks. 561 00:29:22,969 --> 00:29:27,849 And yet what I've found is that although initially 562 00:29:27,891 --> 00:29:31,644 the male partner is like, I don't need any emotional validation, 563 00:29:31,644 --> 00:29:34,647 I just want to know that my arguments are heard. 564 00:29:34,731 --> 00:29:38,777 You give that a couple of months, and the entire therapy 565 00:29:38,777 --> 00:29:41,780 is focusing on validating his emotions. 566 00:29:41,946 --> 00:29:43,323 Wow. Really? Yeah. 567 00:29:43,323 --> 00:29:46,534 And it happens like again and again and again. 568 00:29:46,618 --> 00:29:48,828 There's just I can see it come. 569 00:29:48,828 --> 00:29:51,247 I can see the trajectory of what this therapy is going 570 00:29:51,247 --> 00:29:55,335 to look like for this couple from the first session. 571 00:29:55,376 --> 00:29:56,085 It's like okay. 572 00:29:56,085 --> 00:29:59,339 He's so I don't I don't know about that. 573 00:29:59,339 --> 00:30:01,424 I think it's what we think we need. 574 00:30:01,424 --> 00:30:05,428 don't think men are necessarily as used to being emotionally validated, 575 00:30:05,512 --> 00:30:06,262 I don't know if it's 576 00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:09,724 as common of an experience or something that people tend to open with. 577 00:30:10,099 --> 00:30:13,853 But when done well, like we said, it's like candy. 578 00:30:13,853 --> 00:30:16,564 So who doesn't Like like candy? It's like cash. 579 00:30:16,564 --> 00:30:17,732 It's like a orgasm. 580 00:30:17,732 --> 00:30:20,735 It's like, whoa, it's the best. Wow. 581 00:30:20,902 --> 00:30:22,320 Okay. And let's go to that. Right. 582 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,867 What's the difference between praising someone and actually validating them? 583 00:30:27,867 --> 00:30:28,284 All right. 584 00:30:28,284 --> 00:30:31,871 So in the corporate setting you have somebody who comes to you. 585 00:30:31,871 --> 00:30:34,457 I'm just going off of an example from earlier this week. 586 00:30:34,457 --> 00:30:36,501 Someone's worked really hard on a project. 587 00:30:36,501 --> 00:30:39,128 You say, My God this is great work. 588 00:30:39,128 --> 00:30:41,798 Wow. You must have you must have put in overtime, 589 00:30:41,798 --> 00:30:44,801 like you must have been busting at 12 hours a day to get to this point. 590 00:30:44,843 --> 00:30:47,804 Like, this is really great. Awesome. 591 00:30:47,804 --> 00:30:49,097 That's praise. 592 00:30:49,097 --> 00:30:52,100 It's saying, you know, you've exceeded expectations. 593 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:54,227 You've done good work. 594 00:30:54,227 --> 00:30:56,980 Validation would sound more like 595 00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:59,649 you must be exhausted. 596 00:30:59,649 --> 00:31:04,237 Like if I were in your shoes, I'm worried I might be teetering towards burnout 597 00:31:04,237 --> 00:31:07,699 because this is the third or fourth week that you've you've, you know, 598 00:31:07,824 --> 00:31:10,785 pulled out a project like this at the last minute. 599 00:31:10,785 --> 00:31:12,537 Thank you. 600 00:31:12,537 --> 00:31:14,747 But you're this is not lost on me. 601 00:31:14,747 --> 00:31:17,083 The work that you're doing here is not lost on me. 602 00:31:17,083 --> 00:31:20,712 I haven't commented on the quality of the work at all, right? 603 00:31:20,753 --> 00:31:23,756 I'm simply attending to the person's experience, 604 00:31:24,007 --> 00:31:26,885 and that is the difference. 605 00:31:26,885 --> 00:31:27,302 All right. 606 00:31:27,302 --> 00:31:30,805 And again, in corporate settings, like it's 607 00:31:30,805 --> 00:31:35,560 so it's the lowest hanging fruit that everybody is just missing. 608 00:31:36,227 --> 00:31:40,523 Like people just want to feel like you see the effort that they're putting 609 00:31:40,523 --> 00:31:44,694 in, the sacrifices they're making, even if they're not as big 610 00:31:44,694 --> 00:31:45,987 as you think they should be or whatever. 611 00:31:45,987 --> 00:31:47,780 Like people just want to feel seen for that. 612 00:31:47,780 --> 00:31:51,826 And when they do, they become capable of greatness. 613 00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:54,120 At least that's been my experience. Yeah. 614 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,124 So when you go for validation instead of just praise, 615 00:31:58,166 --> 00:31:59,626 it feels like you're also like 616 00:31:59,626 --> 00:32:01,920 strengthening that relationship with that person, 617 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,838 whether it's a colleague, whether it's a friend, 618 00:32:03,838 -->

00:32:06,716 whether it's a spouse, whether it's a child, you're really like 619 00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:08,092 strengthening the relationship. 620 00:32:08,092 --> 00:32:11,554 And I feel like most people, they're leading with the praise. 621 00:32:11,554 --> 00:32:13,431 They're not leading with the validation. Right. 622 00:32:13,431 --> 00:32:14,557 Here's a test for you. 623 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:16,517 I validate you? 624 00:32:16,517 --> 00:32:19,854 What makes it feel okay for you 625 00:32:19,854 --> 00:32:22,857 to keep talking to me? 626 00:32:23,107 --> 00:32:26,653 I feel like when the person feels validated, 627 00:32:27,487 --> 00:32:30,490 they let their guard down and start opening up. 628 00:32:30,490 --> 00:32:33,493 Because they feel more. 629 00:32:34,202 --> 00:32:36,079 Safe. 630 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:38,373 Psychologically 631 00:32:38,373 --> 00:32:41,376 Psychological safety Psychological safety. 632 00:32:41,376 --> 00:32:42,710 Wow. That's the mechanism. 633 00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:46,464 So they feel safe to to go there when before they didn't. 634 00:32:46,464 --> 00:32:52,345 if we don't trust that it's safe to be vulnerable or safe to be real 635 00:32:52,387 --> 00:32:56,766 or just safe at all, we're not going to show up entirely. 636 00:32:57,141 --> 00:32:59,519 Right. We're going to it's going to be a lot of facades. 637 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:01,646 Yeah, there's going to be a. Wall up. There's going to be a wall up. 638 00:33:01,646 --> 00:33:04,691 And I think people like, well, okay, a wall is kind of good at work, right? 639 00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:08,319 I don't want everybody's just like, you know, mess all over the place. 640 00:33:08,861 --> 00:33:11,572 But psychological safety doesn't tend 641 00:33:11,572 --> 00:33:15,201 to result in people being inappropriate or unprofessional. 642 00:33:15,451 --> 00:33:16,119 Again. 643 00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:19,080 On the contrary, they tend to rise, right? 644 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,206 We take risks. 645 00:33:20,206 --> 00:33:24,961 When we feel safe, we put ourselves out there, we become more creative. 646 00:33:25,294 --> 00:33:28,840 I've talked a fair bit with the folks 647 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,176 over at Second City in Chicago. 648 00:33:32,218 --> 00:33:36,806 They do a lot of the improv work there, and they've got this concept of yes, 649 00:33:36,806 --> 00:33:42,103 and in improv, where they kind of build off of each other's ideas. 650 00:33:42,103 --> 00:33:43,980 There's there's no bad ideas, right? 651 00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:48,151 Someone throws out a line or a character and you just kind of. Yes. 652 00:33:48,151 --> 00:33:49,569 And you build off it. 653 00:33:49,569 --> 00:33:54,198 And in that type of a dynamic, in that type of a setting, there's 654 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,494 this feeling that like, I can just say something stupid and it's fine. 655 00:33:58,494 --> 00:34:00,955 Everyone's going to roll with it. The show will go on. 656 00:34:00,955 --> 00:34:06,002 And that's kind of it's kind of a very similar thing that happens 657 00:34:06,002 --> 00:34:09,839 with validation is it's like, okay, I can kind of like I can take some risks. 658 00:34:09,922 --> 00:34:13,676 I can throw out an idea that's kind of out there, and I won't risk 659 00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:15,845 being rejected as a result. 660 00:34:15,845 --> 00:34:19,891 And so no, people don't become, 661 00:34:19,891 --> 00:34:23,436 you know, a huge mess in front of you all the time. 662 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:29,484 On the contrary, they tend to rise and do more creative, more innovative things. 663 00:34:29,525 --> 00:34:32,445 Okay, let's picture a tense negotiation. Okay? 664 00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:37,909 So let's picture a negotiation where the other person is getting defensive. 665 00:34:37,950 --> 00:34:39,494 They're refusing to budge. 666 00:34:39,494 --> 00:34:44,832 you say that once someone feels validated, they have nothing left to fight against. 667 00:34:44,999 --> 00:34:48,544 I want to lower the temperature fast in that negotiation, 668 00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:52,048 what are the actual words I should say to them first? 669 00:34:52,048 --> 00:34:53,966 It's a really good question. 670 00:34:53,966 --> 00:34:57,512 We're going back to that copying strategy that I mentioned before. 671 00:34:57,970 --> 00:35:02,308 You'll see this technique called a bunch of different things. 672 00:35:02,308 --> 00:35:05,144 You'll find it in international conflict resolution. 673 00:35:05,144 --> 00:35:07,230 It's known as the Rapoport method. 674 00:35:07,230 --> 00:35:10,983 In Gottman Method couples therapy they use the same approach 675 00:35:11,234 --> 00:35:12,276 because here's the situation. 676 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:13,486 If you're in conflict with someone, 677 00:35:13,486 --> 00:35:15,404 you probably don't agree with what they're saying. 678 00:35:15,404 --> 00:35:18,825 And you might be struggling to understand where they're coming from. 679 00:35:18,866 --> 00:35:21,953 Moving that snow globe that I described earlier is hard. 680 00:35:21,994 --> 00:35:22,912 Okay. 681 00:35:22,912 --> 00:35:25,832 So often the only thing you can do 682 00:35:25,832 --> 00:35:29,252 is repeat back what they said, right? 683 00:35:29,544 --> 00:35:32,588 And again, I encourage you to do this from a position 684 00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:36,592 of like curiosity, kind of checking the facts. 685 00:35:36,592 --> 00:35:39,679 Not like, I don't know, 686 00:35:40,429 --> 00:35:43,558 mocking or I hear you saying but like, really? 687 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:46,269 Okay, so from your perspective. 688 00:35:46,269 --> 00:35:50,982 You don't want to come to LA and we're making you do this against your will. 689 00:35:51,023 --> 00:35:53,901 Is that right? That's where you're coming from. 690 00:35:53,901 --> 00:35:57,947 That simple act of

copying this, this one 691 00:35:57,947 --> 00:36:01,826 strategy strategy does some incredibly heavy lifting. 692 00:36:02,118 --> 00:36:05,163 Not only does it result in the other person 693 00:36:05,913 --> 00:36:09,876 literally feeling heard, okay, because you've just said their words, 694 00:36:10,001 --> 00:36:13,129 it activates mirror neurons on my end. 695 00:36:13,254 --> 00:36:17,842 And mirror, mirror neurons allow us to intuit 696 00:36:17,842 --> 00:36:22,221 or taste feel some of what the other person is experiencing. 697 00:36:22,221 --> 00:36:23,973 That is how they function. 698 00:36:23,973 --> 00:36:28,519 So by using this simple strategy, I am both affecting the other person, 699 00:36:28,519 --> 00:36:30,188 but I'm also affecting myself. 700 00:36:30,188 --> 00:36:33,608 I am increasing my ability to empathize and understand. 701 00:36:33,858 --> 00:36:39,906 As someone who has worked with folks who are saying some really out there 702 00:36:39,906 --> 00:36:44,202 things as a clinical psychologist, like I have heard it all, 703 00:36:44,952 --> 00:36:47,705 and often things that are very offensive 704 00:36:47,705 --> 00:36:50,708 to me that are aggressive. 705 00:36:50,958 --> 00:36:55,296 Okay, I can tell you that if I just slow down 706 00:36:55,379 --> 00:37:00,301 and simply try and reflect what I'm hearing and clarify 707 00:37:00,301 --> 00:37:05,431 where the other person is coming from, something happens to me, okay. 708 00:37:05,973 --> 00:37:08,768 And it surprises me every single time 709 00:37:08,768 --> 00:37:12,146 that like to this day, it just it gets me every time. 710 00:37:12,146 --> 00:37:14,357 I'm like, all right, I don't know where the person's coming from. 711 00:37:14,357 --> 00:37:17,151 This is so problematic. I'm just going to reflect it back. 712 00:37:17,151 --> 00:37:19,278 I reflected back. I see. 713 00:37:20,947 --> 00:37:21,697 right. 714 00:37:21,697 --> 00:37:22,490 Well, I don't. 715 00:37:22,490 --> 00:37:23,616 See it that way. 716 00:37:23,616 --> 00:37:25,576 But what if I take this thing? 717 00:37:25,576 --> 00:37:29,705 It just every single time and again, this is one of those 718 00:37:29,747 --> 00:37:32,917 those strategies that we have so much research on. 719 00:37:32,917 --> 00:37:37,171 It's unbelievable copying folks, both their nonverbal 720 00:37:37,588 --> 00:37:40,466 and their you know what they're saying. 721 00:37:40,466 --> 00:37:45,096 It functions to reduce things like implicit racism. 722 00:37:45,263 --> 00:37:50,518 It softens the positions of folks on on either side of a war. 723 00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:54,063 These increases attraction. 724 00:37:54,397 --> 00:37:55,606 These are like. 725 00:37:55,606 --> 00:37:57,858 A study after study after study. 726 00:37:57,858 --> 00:37:59,860 This is such low hanging fruit. 727 00:37:59,860 --> 00:38:03,698 And yet we just it's just not common knowledge. 728 00:38:03,823 -->

00:38:07,702 If step one is copying okay or mirroring, let's say within, 729 00:38:07,743 --> 00:38:09,161 then what's the next step, right. 730 00:38:09,161 --> 00:38:12,290 You're in a tense negotiation or you're in a back and forth. 731 00:38:12,290 --> 00:38:14,917 Someone said something. You totally disagree with you okay. 732 00:38:14,917 --> 00:38:17,003 Step one you copy? Is there a playbook here? What? 733 00:38:17,003 --> 00:38:18,296 Step two. What? Step three. 734 00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:18,754 Yeah. 735 00:38:18,754 --> 00:38:22,008 So as a function of that copying I will. 736 00:38:22,049 --> 00:38:23,092 And if I do it enough 737 00:38:23,092 --> 00:38:26,595 I will start to understand and or empathize with the other person. 738 00:38:26,595 --> 00:38:29,807 And then I can land a higher level of validation, 739 00:38:29,807 --> 00:38:33,894 one of the most powerful steps from there is to propose 740 00:38:34,145 --> 00:38:38,065 a very specific validation strategy, where I basically say something 741 00:38:38,065 --> 00:38:41,652 that I think you might be thinking that I think you might be feeling, 742 00:38:41,652 --> 00:38:45,656 but you haven't said yet, if I land this, it's. 743 00:38:45,656 --> 00:38:48,743 Like, boom. Oh, she gets me. 744 00:38:48,868 --> 00:38:52,121 If I can say something that you haven't articulated yet. 745 00:38:52,121 --> 00:38:54,332 Better yet, if you haven't even fully framed 746 00:38:54,332 --> 00:38:59,128 that idea in your head and I land it, it hits like a bullet. 747 00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:02,840 The queen of proposing is Oprah. 748 00:39:03,424 --> 00:39:05,051 I talk about this a lot. 749 00:39:05,051 --> 00:39:08,262 The Oprah Effect I think literally she built her 750 00:39:08,262 --> 00:39:12,475 entire career around this ability to just. 751 00:39:12,516 --> 00:39:17,229 Hit that note, say the thing that the other person 752 00:39:17,229 --> 00:39:20,024 is thinking or feeling, but hasn't quite put out there. 753 00:39:20,024 --> 00:39:22,109 She did this great interview with 754 00:39:23,069 --> 00:39:23,611 Meghan 755 00:39:23,611 --> 00:39:28,115 Markle She's talking about being the subject of all this scrutiny 756 00:39:28,115 --> 00:39:32,244 and tabloid press and just bad blood. 757 00:39:32,244 --> 00:39:34,705 Everyone's just telling these stories about her, 758 00:39:34,705 --> 00:39:37,583 and she's not standing up for herself. 759 00:39:37,583 --> 00:39:41,170 You know, she's these these stories are circulating and she's staying quiet. 760 00:39:41,253 --> 00:39:46,675 And Oprah says, you know, like, you know, something to the effect of like, 761 00:39:46,717 --> 00:39:49,762 did you, you know, why didn't you say anything? 762 00:39:50,721 --> 00:39:53,641 And you can just see in that moment Meghan's just a little bit like, 763 00:39:53,641 --> 00:39:57,520 I don't know, I, I, I knew it was wrong. 764 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,815 I couldn't see a way I, I should have said something, 765 00:40:00,815 --> 00:40:03,818 but I didn't, I don't know, I, it was really complicated. 766 00:40:03,818 --> 00:40:04,610 It was difficult. 767 00:40:04,610 --> 00:40:07,822 I was just silent and she looks like a little defeated. 768 00:40:07,822 --> 00:40:12,868 And then Oprah goes silent, silenced. 769 00:40:14,829 --> 00:40:16,288 It was Boom. 770 00:40:16,288 --> 00:40:18,124 And that was like. 771 00:40:18,124 --> 00:40:19,250 Being like super dramatic. 772 00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:21,127 So it's like not, you know, it's cheesy, 773 00:40:21,127 --> 00:40:25,297 but it was this moment of like, that's what she was teetering around. 774 00:40:25,339 --> 00:40:25,965 She was trying. 775 00:40:25,965 --> 00:40:28,717 It was choosing this delicate position of wanting to like, 776 00:40:28,717 --> 00:40:30,970 not throw the royal family under the bus, but at the same time 777 00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:33,222 say, like, I didn't feel like I could say anything. 778 00:40:33,222 --> 00:40:36,767 I don't know, I guess I just stayed quiet and she was saying no. 779 00:40:37,435 --> 00:40:39,770 Seems like there was some pressure there. 780 00:40:39,770 --> 00:40:42,773 Seems like this was not totally within your control, 781 00:40:42,898 --> 00:40:45,901 and that is a fundamentally different experience. 782 00:40:46,277 --> 00:40:49,530 It's not just that you were quiet or that you lack the strength, 783 00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:52,950 and that you weren't brave is that you felt powerless. 784 00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:58,247 So with that one word, she reframed and clarified that message 785 00:40:58,414 --> 00:41:03,919 in such a way that it's like, yeah, that's kind of what was going on. 786 00:41:03,919 --> 00:41:08,466 And what can you deduce from that other than you get it? 787 00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:14,221 If you were able to pull that together and say what I didn't and say it in 788 00:41:14,221 --> 00:41:18,809 such a way, that speaks to the experience, you get it now. 789 00:41:18,809 --> 00:41:21,020 Again, like that's high stakes stuff like Oprah knows what. 790 00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:22,855 She's been doing. This for a long time, right? 791 00:41:22,855 --> 00:41:26,817 But like, if you were to ask what's the step up from there, it is to propose. 792 00:41:26,859 --> 00:41:29,278 And again, notice I don't have to agree. 793 00:41:29,278 --> 00:41:32,490 I do not have to agree with her experience that she was silenced. 794 00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:33,949 I don't know anything about it. 795 00:41:33,949 --> 00:41:37,912 Oprah doesn't really know anything about it, but she can, in that moment 796 00:41:37,995 --> 00:41:43,626 read the signals and say, it seems like this was what was going on for you. 797 00:41:44,001 --> 00:41:45,878 That's that's what this is. 798 00:41:45,878 --> 00:41:47,046 So step one is copying. 799 00:41:47,046 --> 00:41:49,757 Step two is

potentially trying to propose something. 800 00:41:49,757 --> 00:41:51,550 And when you're proposing something, 801 00:41:51,550 --> 00:41:55,429 should you assume or have an idea about the way someone feels. 802 00:41:55,429 --> 00:41:57,890 And that's what you propose. You're trying to propose? 803 00:41:57,890 --> 00:42:01,685 Oh, it must have felt like x, y, z, could be a thought, could be a feeling, 804 00:42:01,685 --> 00:42:04,355 could be a. You must have wanted to shoot them, right? 805 00:42:04,355 --> 00:42:06,482 Like you must have been terrified. 806 00:42:06,482 --> 00:42:08,692 You must have been thinking, I got to get out of here. 807 00:42:08,692 --> 00:42:13,531 You can say it as a fact, like you were silenced. 808 00:42:14,031 --> 00:42:15,282 You can ask it as a question. 809 00:42:15,282 --> 00:42:16,784 Were you silenced? 810 00:42:16,784 --> 00:42:19,787 There's all these, like, little delicacies, you know, intricacies 811 00:42:19,787 --> 00:42:24,250 of how you do this, but it's just saying something the other person hasn't said 812 00:42:24,291 --> 00:42:27,628 that speaks to the experience in a way that they haven't yet. 813 00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:30,756 So copying and mirroring that's that's that's level one. 814 00:42:30,756 --> 00:42:32,841 That's pretty easy. That's you can do with anybody. 815 00:42:32,841 --> 00:42:33,509 I always say like think 816 00:42:33,509 --> 00:42:37,221 if I was across from like that one politician that I can't stand, 817 00:42:37,304 --> 00:42:38,597 how would I validate them? 818 00:42:38,597 --> 00:42:41,392 Like, everybody wants to know, how would you validate this person? 819 00:42:41,392 --> 00:42:41,725 Right. 820 00:42:41,725 --> 00:42:45,145 And I always think like low level I would be copying 821 00:42:45,145 --> 00:42:48,482 we've got another strategy in there called attending, which is also just kind of, 822 00:42:49,024 --> 00:42:50,651 you know, really low level. 823 00:42:50,651 --> 00:42:51,485 And that's what I would do. 824 00:42:51,485 --> 00:42:53,445 I would just kind of I could do that with anybody. 825 00:42:53,445 --> 00:42:56,824 And from there, I'm pretty confident that I could even propose. 826 00:42:56,991 --> 00:43:01,453 I could even probably read into that situation in a way that would soften it. 827 00:43:01,453 --> 00:43:04,081 Okay. I want to see this in action. So let's do a live role play. 828 00:43:05,624 --> 00:43:08,043 a business owner, you're providing some product or service. 829 00:43:08,043 --> 00:43:10,212 I'm I'm the customer I'm the anger customer. Right. 830 00:43:10,212 --> 00:43:16,760 So the project is laid I feel ignored, Im coming in hot and we'll go into this 831 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,307 and I want you to respond the way that you really would based 832 00:43:21,307 --> 00:43:24,602 on, you know, because you have a very specific set of skills. 833 00:43:24,602 --> 00:43:27,271 Okay. So let's go. I'm done being quiet about it. 834 00:43:27,271 --> 00:43:29,148 You promised this two weeks ago. 835 00:43:29,148 --> 00:43:30,858 I have a launch that's writing on it. 836 00:43:30,858 --> 00:43:34,278 Do you actually care about this project or am I just a number? 837 00:43:34,278 --> 00:43:36,155 Now that the invoice is paid, Okay. 838 00:43:36,155 --> 00:43:38,657 Two weeks. It's been two weeks. Yes. 839 00:43:38,657 --> 00:43:40,367 so I'm sorry. Do you have. 840 00:43:40,367 --> 00:43:44,163 So you're saying you reached out to us two weeks ago, and 841 00:43:44,246 --> 00:43:45,331 did you get a response or. 842 00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:47,750 No. No, I'm two weeks late on the project. 843 00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:49,585 I've been waiting on your team. 844 00:43:49,585 --> 00:43:53,047 Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it had been two weeks. 845 00:43:53,297 --> 00:43:55,257 Did this go to me or to the team? 846 00:43:55,257 --> 00:43:57,301 It went to your team? To the team? 847 00:43:57,301 --> 00:43:58,302 Okay, okay. 848 00:43:58,302 --> 00:44:00,346 Did you email my email address? 849 00:44:00,346 --> 00:44:02,890 No, I emailed your team. They didn't even reply at all. 850 00:44:02,890 --> 00:44:07,061 I see, I see, and I mean, to be honest, I am responsible for my team. 851 00:44:07,061 --> 00:44:10,147 So regardless of whether or not you emailed me or you emailed my team, 852 00:44:10,147 --> 00:44:11,315 it shouldn't matter. 853 00:44:11,315 --> 00:44:14,193 That said, I didn't see it. 854 00:44:14,193 --> 00:44:16,111 I did not see it. 855 00:44:16,111 --> 00:44:18,238 I take responsibility for it. 856 00:44:18,238 --> 00:44:20,908 But I want you to know I did not see it. 857 00:44:20,908 --> 00:44:24,620 All that aside, you are absolutely right. 858 00:44:24,662 --> 00:44:28,332 Like if you depended on us, you didn't get what you needed. 859 00:44:28,374 --> 00:44:30,751 That's not the contract you signed up for. 860 00:44:30,751 --> 00:44:34,129 Okay, what can I what can we do today? 861 00:44:34,129 --> 00:44:35,673 I need the project I'm past. 862 00:44:35,673 --> 00:44:38,467 Do I need the project by the end of the day today? 863 00:44:38,467 --> 00:44:40,135 Like, otherwise, I want to refund. 864 00:44:40,135 --> 00:44:42,721 Okay. That's fair, that's fair. Here's what we're going to do. 865 00:44:42,721 --> 00:44:45,724 I'm going to see what we can get done by the end of today. 866 00:44:45,808 --> 00:44:47,518 You're a rational person. 867 00:44:47,518 --> 00:44:49,436 I think you can appreciate that. 868 00:44:49,436 --> 00:44:52,022 You know, we have a certain amount of hours 869 00:44:52,022 --> 00:44:56,860 we're going to get done everything that we can, and I'm going to refund you 870 00:44:56,860 --> 00:45:00,656 for whatever was not completed within, you know, within that scope. 871 00:45:00,656 --> 00:45:05,452 But more importantly, I want you to know that this was not personal. 872

00:45:05,953 --> 00:45:08,163 This was not us not taking you seriously. 873 00:45:08,163 --> 00:45:11,291 Although I can see absolutely how there's a lot of signals 874 00:45:11,291 --> 00:45:15,671 suggesting that I did not see a message from you and ignore it. 875 00:45:16,046 --> 00:45:16,380 Okay? 876 00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:19,925 That was not what happened here, even though that may be how it appears. 877 00:45:20,092 --> 00:45:23,387 We're going to do everything we can to make this right. 878 00:45:23,387 --> 00:45:26,640 And in the meantime, you have every right to be upset. 879 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,268 And if I were in your shoes, I'd be. Upset, too. 880 00:45:29,268 --> 00:45:32,020 Is there anything else I can do? Just. 881 00:45:32,020 --> 00:45:33,814 I would just need it done by the end of the day. 882 00:45:33,814 --> 00:45:35,816 If you can do everything in your power to just get it fully 883 00:45:35,816 --> 00:45:38,277 finished by the end of the day, and if you can't do it 884 00:45:38,277 --> 00:45:41,029 by the end of the day, I want a full refund. All my money back. 885 00:45:41,029 --> 00:45:43,449 We're going to try and do as much as we can. How about I. 886 00:45:43,449 --> 00:45:45,743 How about I follow up in two hours and give you a heads up? 887 00:45:45,743 --> 00:45:49,496 Do you want me to check in, or would you rather just us plow ahead? No. 888 00:45:49,496 --> 00:45:50,956 You can check in with me as soon. 889 00:45:50,956 --> 00:45:52,583 As soon as soon as possible. Great. 890 00:45:52,583 --> 00:45:54,960 All right, so I'll do check ins. How about every every hour? 891 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:55,586 Does that work? 892 00:45:55,586 --> 00:45:55,919 Yeah. 893 00:45:55,919 --> 00:45:59,715 Okay, I bought myself a little bit of time there because you're coming in hot, 894 00:45:59,715 --> 00:46:02,342 and I know that emotions come up and then they come down. 895 00:46:02,342 --> 00:46:08,390 I'm doing a lot of just let me hold, let me get through this and keep it steady. 896 00:46:08,432 --> 00:46:11,935 You noticed I did a bit of repeating in the beginning with the two hours. 897 00:46:11,935 --> 00:46:15,731 I was also using that to buy myself a little bit of time, frankly, to think. 898 00:46:15,939 --> 00:46:19,234 So I knew that that piece really resonated with you. 899 00:46:19,234 --> 00:46:21,403 I knew that because you repeated it. 900 00:46:21,403 --> 00:46:24,656 Really important note for anyone who's listening, if someone is repeating 901 00:46:24,656 --> 00:46:27,910 something, it's because they don't feel like you've heard them. 902 00:46:28,243 --> 00:46:32,539 If they are repeating something, it needs to be validated, right? 903 00:46:32,581 --> 00:46:35,125 So I leaned into that two hour thing 904 00:46:35,125 --> 00:46:39,421 because you'd repeated it and to buy myself some time, right? 905 00:46:39,463 --> 00:46:43,217 I also did a little bit of proposing by

suggesting that I hadn't 906 00:46:43,258 --> 00:46:46,553 taken responsibility, that it was my job to take responsibility for it. 907 00:46:46,595 --> 00:46:49,306 As soon as I did that, like, oh, did you email me? 908 00:46:49,306 --> 00:46:50,933 Oh, you emailed my team. 909 00:46:50,933 --> 00:46:51,975 Oh, sorry. 910 00:46:51,975 --> 00:46:55,395 Like, I could easily see the person on the other side going like, yeah, but. 911 00:46:55,437 --> 00:46:57,981 Right. And so I proposed there. 912 00:46:57,981 --> 00:47:00,818 I stepped in and said, but it doesn't matter. 913 00:47:00,818 --> 00:47:02,569 It's still my responsibility. 914 00:47:02,569 --> 00:47:05,697 Knowing That which was that's what the person was thinking, right. 915 00:47:05,864 --> 00:47:06,865 the proposed right. 916 00:47:06,865 --> 00:47:10,536 I also use this other strategy that's taking action. 917 00:47:10,744 --> 00:47:11,662 Okay. 918 00:47:11,662 --> 00:47:16,083 Taking action is a very high level validation strategy. 919 00:47:16,708 --> 00:47:18,919 It's different from problem solving. 920 00:47:18,919 --> 00:47:22,422 Problem solving suggests solutions that you could do. 921 00:47:22,464 --> 00:47:26,009 Well, why don't you contact your team and see what you guys can get by on? 922 00:47:26,009 --> 00:47:28,637 Or why don't we all powwow together? 923 00:47:28,637 --> 00:47:32,808 Problem solving suggests solutions the other person should do. 924 00:47:33,141 --> 00:47:37,229 Taking action has me intervene in some way. 925 00:47:37,437 --> 00:47:41,233 So I said, basically, I'm going to now prioritize this. 926 00:47:41,441 --> 00:47:43,735 I'm going to check in with you every hour. 927 00:47:43,735 --> 00:47:46,738 I am actively putting myself. Out. 928 00:47:46,738 --> 00:47:49,449 To basically meet this need. 929 00:47:49,449 --> 00:47:51,577 That's a high level strategy. 930 00:47:51,577 --> 00:47:54,746 You need to be careful with that, because if you jump in and take action 931 00:47:54,746 --> 00:48:00,085 every time somebody falls or runs into trouble, 932 00:48:00,085 --> 00:48:02,504 they're never going to develop the skills they need, right? 933 00:48:02,504 --> 00:48:05,007 But in certain situations, it can really land. 934 00:48:05,007 --> 00:48:06,216 And this is one of those. 935 00:48:06,216 --> 00:48:09,261 And we also extending the refund is taking action. 936 00:48:09,386 --> 00:48:12,723 Let me saying I'm going to like I take this really seriously. 937 00:48:12,723 --> 00:48:16,184 It's going to be reflected in my behavior is essentially what I'm doing 938 00:48:16,393 --> 00:48:19,396 could you have validated, copied, proposed 939 00:48:19,688 --> 00:48:23,275 potentially taking action without throwing in the Without throwing in the refund? 940 00:48:23,317 --> 00:48:25,569 Yes, I would have needed a really good reason though. 941 00:48:25,569 --> 00:48:29,406 So, for instance, if it was corporate policy, let's say 942 00:48:29,406 --> 00:48:34,620 that I'm at UPS or something But you can't give a refund, right? 943 00:48:34,786 --> 00:48:38,540 yeah, I would say like I would go to great lengths to communicate. 944 00:48:38,540 --> 00:48:40,083 If it was within my power. 945 00:48:40,083 --> 00:48:42,210 I absolutely would like. 946 00:48:42,210 --> 00:48:44,296 This is not my decision here. 947 00:48:44,296 --> 00:48:48,216 I'm saying I want to help you, but my hands are tied, 948 00:48:48,508 --> 00:48:52,095 which frankly is a is a good move if you're in, 949 00:48:52,137 --> 00:48:55,682 you know, in certain situations where you can deflect to a higher power. 950 00:48:55,807 --> 00:48:57,476 They're to say, well, I want to talk to your manager. 951 00:48:57,476 --> 00:48:59,019 Yeah. Great. Please do. 952 00:48:59,019 --> 00:49:00,812 We have we have the levels here. 953 00:49:00,812 --> 00:49:02,064 Number one, copy. 954 00:49:02,064 --> 00:49:04,566 Number two, propose number three. 955 00:49:04,566 --> 00:49:07,486 If you can take action. Yeah. Take action. 956 00:49:07,486 --> 00:49:08,362 That's level three. 957 00:49:08,362 --> 00:49:09,196 It is another. 958 00:49:09,196 --> 00:49:12,032 Level three move is self-disclosure. okay. 959 00:49:12,032 --> 00:49:12,866 So tell me about that. 960 00:49:12,866 --> 00:49:14,618 Yeah, it is exactly what it sounds like 961 00:49:14,618 --> 00:49:18,121 it is to say I've been in your shoes basically. 962 00:49:18,538 --> 00:49:21,667 Again, there's risks to these higher strategies. 963 00:49:21,667 --> 00:49:24,419 If they go poorly, they can blow up your life. 964 00:49:24,419 --> 00:49:26,797 If they go well, it can really land. 965 00:49:26,797 --> 00:49:28,632 I didn't see an opportunity for it. 966 00:49:28,632 --> 00:49:30,676 So disclosing here would have been something like, 967 00:49:31,677 --> 00:49:33,887 you know, like I 968 00:49:33,887 --> 00:49:36,807 interfaced with this exact company, you know, when I worked, 969 00:49:36,807 --> 00:49:40,143 when I do stuff with UPS, sometimes this happens and it drives me crazy. 970 00:49:40,185 --> 00:49:42,562 Like, seriously, what's going on? Right. 971 00:49:42,562 --> 00:49:44,648 I'm trying to, like, level the playing field. 972 00:49:44,648 --> 00:49:52,030 If you look at what happens in AA and Na groups, there's a lot of disclosure 973 00:49:52,072 --> 00:49:57,536 and that is the means by which validation is often communicated. 974 00:49:57,536 --> 00:49:58,495 It is not. 975 00:49:58,495 --> 00:50:01,790 I'm sitting back and listening to your story about addiction. 976 00:50:01,790 --> 00:50:05,669 It's my name is Caroline and I am also an alcoholic. 977 00:50:06,169 --> 00:50:06,378 Right. 978 00:50:06,378 --> 00:50:10,841 There is this leveling that makes it safe for everybody 979 00:50:10,841 --> 00:50:14,011 to be vulnerable and be honest and be real. 980 00:50:14,302 --> 00:50:16,930 I think

there's all in psychology. 981 00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:20,809 Everyone's always wondering, how did how is AA so consistently a fact? 982 00:50:20,809 --> 00:50:22,811 It's been around forever. Like what does it doing? 983 00:50:22,811 --> 00:50:26,398 I think that is one of the most powerful ingredients that gets overlooked 984 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:33,113 is just the the bare bones, the basics of disclosure. 985 00:50:33,113 --> 00:50:37,159 And like we all come here honestly and with no facades 986 00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:39,244 and nobody is better than anybody else. 987 00:50:39,244 --> 00:50:40,912 As a therapist, 988 00:50:40,912 --> 00:50:45,250 this is one I lean on heavily because there's often a power dynamic. 989 00:50:45,375 --> 00:50:49,337 Anytime there's a power dynamic where someone feels or believes 990 00:50:49,337 --> 00:50:53,175 that you are, you believe yourself to be higher than them, better than them. 991 00:50:53,467 --> 00:50:56,470 Disclosure can really level it. 992 00:50:56,595 --> 00:50:59,473 It's like when a doctor says, oh, that's what I would do. 993 00:50:59,473 --> 00:51:02,100 Oh yeah, I would get a second opinion if I were you. 994 00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:04,269 You're like, oh okay. Good. Yeah. 995 00:51:04,269 --> 00:51:07,272 You immediately feel safe and you let your guard down. 996 00:51:07,272 --> 00:51:09,149 You trust that you trust the person more. Yeah. 997 00:51:09,149 --> 00:51:11,735 Oh my daughter had Covid last year. It was the worst. 998 00:51:11,735 --> 00:51:14,529 Oh, we were so scared. Oh, good. Okay. 999 00:51:14,529 --> 00:51:14,738 All right. 1000 00:51:14,738 --> 00:51:18,825 There's just this leveling that happens through disclosure or can. 1001 00:51:18,825 --> 00:51:19,826 Okay. Let's talk about teams. 1002 00:51:19,826 --> 00:51:23,705 So if I'm not mistaken, you get hired to fix executive teams 1003 00:51:23,705 --> 00:51:27,834 that are quietly falling apart when you walk in. 1004 00:51:27,834 --> 00:51:33,256 What is the validation breakdown you find underneath the dysfunction? 1005 00:51:33,298 --> 00:51:34,716 Like every single time? 1006 00:51:34,716 --> 00:51:37,803 Leadership more often than not. 1007 00:51:38,053 --> 00:51:42,224 And it's always very interesting to me because often it's 1008 00:51:42,265 --> 00:51:44,184 the it's leadership that's coming to me 1009 00:51:45,393 --> 00:51:48,522 and saying we have all these issues down below. 1010 00:51:48,855 --> 00:51:53,360 And then I basically want to be a fly on the wall and see how they talk, 1011 00:51:53,401 --> 00:51:57,364 to see how the directors, the CEO, the CFO, the C-suite. 1012 00:51:57,405 --> 00:52:00,033 Let me see how you guys are communicating. 1013 00:52:00,033 --> 00:52:03,036 And frankly, sometimes I do this in kind of a sneaky way, 1014 00:52:03,245 --> 00:52:05,247 which is to say, like, let's have a meeting. 1015 00:52:05,247 --> 00:52:07,207 I want to hear all about the problems that are going 1016 00:52:07,207 --> 00:52:10,585 on, and I just want to sit back and absorb information. 1017 00:52:10,585 --> 00:52:13,463 I want you guys to talk because I want everyone's perspective. 1018 00:52:13,463 --> 00:52:15,215 I do want everyone's perspective. 1019 00:52:15,215 --> 00:52:18,218 I also want to hear how they talk about these problems. 1020 00:52:18,218 --> 00:52:22,139 And in that nine out of ten times, what I see 1021 00:52:22,180 --> 00:52:26,560 is that there's a ton of criticism, 1022 00:52:26,852 --> 00:52:30,397 contempt and negativity bias, 1023 00:52:30,438 --> 00:52:33,441 meaning everyone is focusing on what's wrong. 1024 00:52:33,441 --> 00:52:36,111 There's this sense that everything is awful 1025 00:52:36,111 --> 00:52:39,114 and there's just no texture, there's no 1026 00:52:39,114 --> 00:52:42,367 dimension, there's no positivity anywhere. 1027 00:52:42,450 --> 00:52:46,121 What's communicated is criticism and contempt. 1028 00:52:46,121 --> 00:52:49,124 And if that's the way people are communicating, 1029 00:52:49,541 --> 00:52:52,294 you have to presume that filters down. 1030 00:52:52,294 --> 00:52:55,213 usually my work is like, okay, great, I will work with them. 1031 00:52:55,213 --> 00:52:57,674 Can I work with you guys? first? 1032 00:52:57,674 --> 00:53:00,635 let's set the stage and then filter down. 1033 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,890 Because people learn by watching people. 1034 00:53:05,056 --> 00:53:09,019 And we understand the culture of a place by through observation. 1035 00:53:09,019 --> 00:53:11,813 And that filters down from the top. 1036 00:53:11,813 --> 00:53:14,608 So let's like like what are you modeling? 1037 00:53:14,608 --> 00:53:17,903 And until I'm really confident that that's solid, I'm not going to 1038 00:53:17,944 --> 00:53:21,615 necessarily intervene on a, on the team or a lower level. 1039 00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:25,577 what's the one thing that let's say there's business 1040 00:53:25,577 --> 00:53:27,162 owner executive out there. 1041 00:53:27,162 --> 00:53:29,039 Person with the business person with the team. 1042 00:53:29,039 --> 00:53:33,335 What's the one kind of takeaway or the one quick fix maybe going in 1043 00:53:33,335 --> 00:53:37,464 that they can make a quick change to change the organization? 1044 00:53:37,672 --> 00:53:41,760 It's often this should I respond with problem solving or validation. 1045 00:53:42,093 --> 00:53:42,385 Right. 1046 00:53:42,385 --> 00:53:46,223 So this was a piece of advice that I got from a way, way 1047 00:53:46,223 --> 00:53:49,559 back, like 20 years ago from a mentor. 1048 00:53:49,976 --> 00:53:52,270 Someone comes to you with an issue. 1049 00:53:52,270 --> 00:53:56,358 You have to decide, do I respond with problem solving or validation? 1050 00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:00,737 You can do one and then the other, but in any moment you can only respond with one. 1051

00:54:00,737 --> 00:54:04,824 And if you try to solve the problem in, the person pushes back, switch 1052 00:54:04,824 --> 00:54:07,827 to validation right and then go. 1053 00:54:07,869 --> 00:54:12,958 Nine times out of ten, these guys are all problem solving all the time. 1054 00:54:12,958 --> 00:54:16,169 And they're really they're negativity bias, 1055 00:54:16,169 --> 00:54:19,422 which we all have to this tendency to focus on what's wrong. 1056 00:54:19,506 --> 00:54:24,719 It's almost at the exclusion of things that are going 1057 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:30,392 well, of things that are working, of progress, of perseverance. 1058 00:54:30,684 --> 00:54:32,852 And so I need to balance that out. 1059 00:54:32,852 --> 00:54:35,146 Interesting. Let's talk about apologies. Right. 1060 00:54:35,146 --> 00:54:36,481 Because this is big. 1061 00:54:36,481 --> 00:54:38,525 Most apologies. 1062 00:54:38,525 --> 00:54:40,402 Do they actually make things worse. 1063 00:54:40,402 --> 00:54:44,197 Like so from a validation standpoint what separates an 1064 00:54:44,197 --> 00:54:47,367 apology that rebuilds 1065 00:54:48,368 --> 00:54:49,703 trust 1066 00:54:49,703 --> 00:54:53,498 from one that's just really there to make the person, say, felt better. 1067 00:54:53,623 --> 00:54:58,461 think one of the really if you study apologies, it's really interesting to see 1068 00:54:58,461 --> 00:55:02,382 what people do because they are often much more focused on themselves. 1069 00:55:02,424 --> 00:55:07,095 So for instance, I was late today. 1070 00:55:07,304 --> 00:55:07,929 All right. 1071 00:55:07,929 --> 00:55:09,973 And I caught myself. 1072 00:55:09,973 --> 00:55:11,975 You said, oh yeah, we're ready to go. 1073 00:55:11,975 --> 00:55:13,977 And I said, oh, I'm sorry. 1074 00:55:13,977 --> 00:55:15,603 You know, we took a wrong turn. 1075 00:55:15,603 --> 00:55:17,105 And then we were sitting over there. 1076 00:55:17,105 --> 00:55:21,818 That is the wrong way to approach an apology, because I'm focused on myself. 1077 00:55:22,235 --> 00:55:24,738 Right? I'm focused on saving face. 1078 00:55:24,738 --> 00:55:27,741 And here's my excuse. 1079 00:55:27,907 --> 00:55:28,825 Right. 1080 00:55:28,825 --> 00:55:32,037 The person who's been offended doesn't really care about. 1081 00:55:32,078 --> 00:55:33,830 I mean, they may be kind of whatever. 1082 00:55:33,830 --> 00:55:35,623 They'd much rather hear. 1083 00:55:35,623 --> 00:55:38,001 Hey, I'm sorry you guys had to wait. 1084 00:55:38,001 --> 00:55:39,669 You must have been running around. 1085 00:55:39,669 --> 00:55:41,171 You must have been nervous. 1086 00:55:41,171 --> 00:55:43,089 Is she going to show up? 1087 00:55:43,089 --> 00:55:43,673 Right? That. 1088 00:55:43,673 --> 00:55:46,259 That must have been really uncomfortable. I'm sorry. 1089 00:55:46,259 --> 00:55:47,761 That's what people want to hear. 1090 00:55:47,761 --> 00:55:50,764 They want you to attend to their experience, right? 1091 00:55:50,805 --> 00:55:53,808 Again, even knowing that, 1092 00:55:54,017 --> 00:55:57,562 I still defaulted to me. 1093 00:55:57,812 --> 00:55:58,271 Right. 1094 00:55:58,271 --> 00:56:01,274 Which is to make the point that this is a practice. 1095 00:56:01,733 --> 00:56:04,194 You mess it up, and then you have another chance 1096 00:56:04,194 --> 00:56:07,489 tomorrow when you're late again to correct the next time. 1097 00:56:07,655 --> 00:56:09,741 But that's the distinction in apologies. 1098 00:56:09,741 --> 00:56:13,661 It's about attending to the other person's experience, not yours. 1099 00:56:13,745 --> 00:56:16,956 We're so worried about saving face and. 1100 00:56:17,290 --> 00:56:21,753 just not being seen as as unreliable or X or Y 1101 00:56:21,795 --> 00:56:25,215 that we fail to appreciate the other person's experience, 1102 00:56:25,215 --> 00:56:26,883 which is really what was compromised. 1103 00:56:26,883 --> 00:56:30,887 so there's a wrong way to have an apology in the right way. 1104 00:56:30,887 --> 00:56:35,767 The wrong way is I'm sorry I did this because X, y, z 1105 00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:40,480 whatever happened with me versus I'm sorry and then address their feelings. 1106 00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:41,773 Yeah I think it's a both. 1107 00:56:41,773 --> 00:56:45,944 And like I think it's fine to say I'm sorry I missed the exit. 1108 00:56:45,944 --> 00:56:49,239 And you guys must have been sitting here like, 1109 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,283 seriously worried about what was going on with me. 1110 00:56:52,367 --> 00:56:53,284 You can do both. Right? 1111 00:56:53,284 --> 00:56:56,287 If you're just going to do one, definitely focus on the other person's 1112 00:56:56,287 --> 00:56:57,080 experience first. 1113 00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,582 And there's plenty of times where that's sufficient. 1114 00:56:59,582 --> 00:57:03,461 It's just interesting because instead we almost always do 1115 00:57:03,461 --> 00:57:06,673 the latter at the exclusion of any validation. 1116 00:57:06,798 --> 00:57:08,341 Let's talk about a relationship, right? 1117 00:57:08,341 --> 00:57:11,052 Whether that's husband and wife or boyfriend girlfriend. 1118 00:57:11,052 --> 00:57:14,055 there's a couple and they fight constantly. 1119 00:57:14,055 --> 00:57:16,224 And it's just it's like a circle. It just goes over and over. 1120 00:57:16,224 --> 00:57:16,975 It's the same thing. 1121 00:57:16,975 --> 00:57:19,644 They keep whatever it is, it's taking the trash out or whatever it is. 1122 00:57:19,644 --> 00:57:20,061 Right? 1123 00:57:20,061 --> 00:57:23,148 Is there a validation move that breaks that loop? 1124 00:57:23,273 --> 00:57:26,901 In the context of a dynamic, I think that I rely a little bit 1125 00:57:26,943 --> 00:57:29,487 on the research here, at least in my own relationship, 1126 00:57:29,487 --> 00:57:32,907 because, again, John Gottman, who doesn't

research 1127 00:57:32,949 --> 00:57:35,952 on just thousands of couples and they have this very 1128 00:57:35,952 --> 00:57:40,039 sobering statistic, which is that and they study folks over like 20 years, right. 1129 00:57:40,081 --> 00:57:40,748 The same couples. 1130 00:57:40,748 --> 00:57:44,669 So they've got rich data, the things people are arguing about 1131 00:57:44,919 --> 00:57:49,174 in 1980 are the same things they were arguing about 1132 00:57:49,215 --> 00:57:50,175 20 years later, 1133 00:57:50,175 --> 00:57:53,178 which were the same things that they were arguing about 20 years later. 1134 00:57:53,261 --> 00:57:56,264 I think they say approximately 60% of our issues 1135 00:57:56,264 --> 00:57:59,767 are perpetual, meaning they're not going anywhere. 1136 00:58:00,268 --> 00:58:03,438 We're going to be I'm going to always run a little late. 1137 00:58:03,438 --> 00:58:05,023 You're going to be really punctual. 1138 00:58:05,023 --> 00:58:07,400 That's going to create a rift. 1139 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,736 The strategy is to be able 1140 00:58:09,736 --> 00:58:13,698 to accept each other's God. 1141 00:58:13,698 --> 00:58:16,659 There was this great line from what was it, good Will hunting. 1142 00:58:16,659 --> 00:58:19,704 I'm remembering Robin Williams talking about his late 1143 00:58:19,704 --> 00:58:23,041 wife and saying, you know, you got to pick a Dios. 1144 00:58:23,041 --> 00:58:24,000 I think it's what I like. 1145 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,836 He's like, you got to just accept each other's little weird things. 1146 00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:28,087 And that's marriage. 1147 00:58:28,087 --> 00:58:29,881 I really think there's something to that. 1148 00:58:29,881 --> 00:58:33,343 It's less about winning the argument, perhaps 1149 00:58:33,343 --> 00:58:36,346 less even about getting the other person to take out the trash. 1150 00:58:36,346 --> 00:58:38,014 It's more about being able to laugh 1151 00:58:38,014 --> 00:58:41,768 at the fact that they always forget it and not hate or judge them for it. 1152 00:58:41,768 --> 00:58:47,398 And I think that is where validation comes in, because it's it's the like, 1153 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,861 I see you and I accept you anyway for some stuff. 1154 00:58:51,861 --> 00:58:55,114 And I want to be really clear about this because there are some obviously, 1155 00:58:55,114 --> 00:58:58,243 there are some dynamics and relationships that need to change 1156 00:58:58,284 --> 00:59:02,038 that should not be tolerated and that cannot and should not be validated. 1157 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,500 I'm obviously speaking about violence, abuse, 1158 00:59:05,500 --> 00:59:09,420 neglect, manipulation, exploitation, that type of stuff. 1159 00:59:09,420 --> 00:59:12,423 Is there a psychological reason why 1160 00:59:12,757 --> 00:59:15,635 we hurt the people we love the most? 1161 00:59:15,635 --> 00:59:19,764 I'm a fan of the line hurt people, hurt people. 1162 00:59:20,223 --> 00:59:22,934 And I think, at least 1163 00:59:22,934 --> 00:59:26,062 in my experience, the folks that I have seen suffering 1164 00:59:26,062 --> 00:59:29,357 the most internally often have the most 1165 00:59:29,357 --> 00:59:32,360 fraught relationships with others. 1166 00:59:32,694 --> 00:59:37,699 And I think our when when we struggle with ourselves, when we're not at peace 1167 00:59:37,699 --> 00:59:41,286 and we're not happy with ourselves, we don't treat the people around us 1168 00:59:41,286 --> 00:59:42,328 well either. 1169 00:59:42,328 --> 00:59:46,666 I also think that we are really prone to taking things for granted. 1170 00:59:46,958 --> 00:59:50,753 And the more present something is in our life, 1171 00:59:50,753 --> 00:59:54,340 the more entitled to it we feel and the less precious we see it. 1172 00:59:54,382 --> 00:59:58,094 And that's just a cognitive bias we have to overcome. 1173 00:59:58,303 --> 01:00:01,097 But I really think when it comes to like, 1174 01:00:01,097 --> 01:00:04,183 why do we treat the people around us poorly? 1175 01:00:04,267 --> 01:00:08,021 I would encourage folks to reflect back on how are they treating themselves? 1176 01:00:08,104 --> 01:00:10,732 Are they driving themselves super hard? 1177 01:00:10,732 --> 01:00:14,360 Then they're probably driving their family and the people closest to them hard to. 1178 01:00:14,736 --> 01:00:17,113 And I feel like there's there's times where 1179 01:00:18,239 --> 01:00:20,617 we really hard on the people we love the most. 1180 01:00:20,617 --> 01:00:23,453 But then there's also the opposite, right. 1181 01:00:23,453 --> 01:00:27,874 Why is, you know, why is it that in some cases, the people 1182 01:00:27,874 --> 01:00:33,296 that we love the most, they're the ones that we find the hardest to stand up, to. 1183 01:00:33,296 --> 01:00:34,589 Stand up to? Yeah. 1184 01:00:34,589 --> 01:00:37,592 Because we're most concerned about losing them. 1185 01:00:37,634 --> 01:00:40,511 being rejected by the 1186 01:00:40,511 --> 01:00:41,804 barista at Starbucks. 1187 01:00:41,804 --> 01:00:44,223 Like who cares? 1188 01:00:44,223 --> 01:00:48,102 My daughter, my partner, my my family. 1189 01:00:48,186 --> 01:00:50,188 That is riskier. 1190 01:00:50,188 --> 01:00:52,190 That is going to stick with me. 1191 01:00:52,190 --> 01:00:56,986 And their perception of me informs my understanding of myself. 1192 01:00:57,070 --> 01:01:01,407 And so if they are hostile and negative to me because I'm standing up 1193 01:01:01,407 --> 01:01:05,787 to them, it's hard for me to see myself on fair terms or good terms. 1194 01:01:05,787 --> 01:01:07,622 I internalize that, or at least I can't. 1195 01:01:07,622 --> 01:01:09,165 Many people do. 1196 01:01:09,165 --> 01:01:12,251 in some cases, why do we let someone we'd 1197 01:01:12,251 --> 01:01:15,880 never accept behavior from, like from a stranger? 1198

01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,216 But we accept we we can. 1199 01:01:18,216 --> 01:01:20,134 We let the loved one completely get away with 1200 01:01:21,135 --> 01:01:24,263 Because it's costly to call it out, right? 1201 01:01:24,305 --> 01:01:27,517 And we have to interact with them more frequently. 1202 01:01:27,892 --> 01:01:29,727 Like, I find this actually all the time in my work 1203 01:01:29,727 --> 01:01:34,399 because I can be super effective as a therapist, even helping, 1204 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,695 you know, to with parent training and parenting issues 1205 01:01:38,695 --> 01:01:42,824 with like really pronounced difficult and tractable problems. 1206 01:01:42,824 --> 01:01:44,909 And then I can come home and find. It so. 1207 01:01:44,909 --> 01:01:47,036 Much harder with my kid. 1208 01:01:47,036 --> 01:01:49,789 You know, she's tantrum and I'm like, you want a lollipop? 1209 01:01:49,789 --> 01:01:50,832 Like, what am I doing? 1210 01:01:50,832 --> 01:01:51,916 And it's just that. 1211 01:01:51,916 --> 01:01:52,583 It costs. 1212 01:01:52,583 --> 01:01:55,086 Me so much more and for so much longer. 1213 01:01:55,086 --> 01:01:59,632 And I have to keep it up for so much longer that it's a harder thing. 1214 01:01:59,632 --> 01:02:00,758 It's a marathon. 1215 01:02:00,758 --> 01:02:05,471 I'm really good at sprinting over here, but the marathon is really hard. 1216 01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:09,267 And I always, I think, one of the most important things 1217 01:02:09,267 --> 01:02:11,936 to think about when it comes to relationships. 1218 01:02:11,936 --> 01:02:15,898 Again, I go back to behaviorism, which is punishment and reinforcement, 1219 01:02:15,898 --> 01:02:18,901 and we avoid punishment and we seek reinforcement. 1220 01:02:18,901 --> 01:02:22,196 And so if standing up to you is punishing, I'm going to avoid it. 1221 01:02:22,363 --> 01:02:22,613 yeah. 1222 01:02:22,613 --> 01:02:25,575 Let's talk about the like where we draw the line. 1223 01:02:25,575 --> 01:02:28,703 Because everything you teach, right. 1224 01:02:28,745 --> 01:02:34,375 It makes people trust you faster and argue with you less. 1225 01:02:34,625 --> 01:02:39,881 But is there a line between validation and manipulation? 1226 01:02:40,006 --> 01:02:42,216 It's a good question. It's a question I get asked a lot. 1227 01:02:42,216 --> 01:02:49,098 And one of the points I always make is that you have to be authentic with this. 1228 01:02:49,390 --> 01:02:49,807 Okay? 1229 01:02:49,807 --> 01:02:52,894 I cannot pretend to feel something or suggest 1230 01:02:52,894 --> 01:02:55,855 I feel something that I don't, or 1231 01:02:56,147 --> 01:03:00,276 that to suggest a level of understanding that I don't have that is manipulation. 1232 01:03:00,276 --> 01:03:02,028 That is what politicians do. 1233 01:03:02,028 --> 01:03:05,031 They come out and say, oh, I know this water is such an issue. 1234 01:03:05,031 --> 01:03:08,034 When I'm elected, I'm going to and they're lying. 1235 01:03:08,367 --> 01:03:10,745 They just want to get elected, right? 1236 01:03:10,745 --> 01:03:14,207 You can do that. It's not validation. 1237 01:03:14,415 --> 01:03:16,584 Validation has to be authentic 1238 01:03:16,584 --> 01:03:20,004 or else it is something like manipulation, exploitation. 1239 01:03:20,129 --> 01:03:24,050 I would also add, however, that if you come at it in this way, 1240 01:03:24,091 --> 01:03:25,468 like I said, you've got to be authentic. 1241 01:03:25,468 --> 01:03:30,890 So if all you can do is copy, that's all you got, it will affect you too. 1242 01:03:31,182 --> 01:03:34,811 And so I'm often saying to folks, if, 1243 01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:39,899 if you want to validate me just to manipulate me, please do, please. 1244 01:03:40,107 --> 01:03:42,360 Like if you're going to make attempt I say validation 1245 01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,028 means that you're there, you get it and you care. 1246 01:03:44,028 --> 01:03:46,030 If you're going to really try and understand 1247 01:03:46,030 --> 01:03:49,909 me and really try to empathize with me so as to manipulate me, 1248 01:03:49,951 --> 01:03:52,954 go ahead, please do it all day. 1249 01:03:53,287 --> 01:03:55,039 I want you to. 1250 01:03:55,039 --> 01:03:57,792 Because the more you try to understand and empathize with me, 1251 01:03:57,792 --> 01:03:59,544 the harder it's going to be for you to manipulate 1252 01:04:00,628 --> 01:04:00,837 Okay. 1253 01:04:00,837 --> 01:04:02,380 Let's talk about the internet and social media. 1254 01:04:02,380 --> 01:04:03,381 We talked a little bit about it. 1255 01:04:03,381 --> 01:04:06,384 Let's talk a little bit about it again the whole internet tells people 1256 01:04:06,384 --> 01:04:09,846 to stop seeking this external validation right. 1257 01:04:09,971 --> 01:04:13,015 Do you think that advice is mostly wrong and if so why. 1258 01:04:13,224 --> 01:04:15,852 would encourage folks to stop seeking praise. 1259 01:04:15,852 --> 01:04:18,896 Some praise is fine. Like it's important. 1260 01:04:18,896 --> 01:04:21,899 Praise and validation can go hand in hand and should to be effective. 1261 01:04:21,899 --> 01:04:24,986 A lot of the time that's fine, but if you're building your identity 1262 01:04:24,986 --> 01:04:28,281 around praise, it's like building it around a house of cards. 1263 01:04:28,322 --> 01:04:30,491 It's a very fragile thing. 1264 01:04:30,491 --> 01:04:34,078 You've put so many filters on yourself that you almost can't go outside. 1265 01:04:34,203 --> 01:04:35,204 You know what I mean? 1266 01:04:35,204 --> 01:04:40,251 Because ultimately, as I said before, you have to exceed expectations 1267 01:04:40,251 --> 01:04:43,421 to get praise, seeking belonging, 1268 01:04:43,462 --> 01:04:47,758 seeking acceptance for even from strangers. 1269 01:04:47,758 --> 01:04:49,510 I think that's a very powerful thing. 1270

01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:53,598 And the example I gave before of me blatantly 1271 01:04:53,598 --> 01:04:57,393 seeking external validation, I was shocked. 1272 01:04:57,393 --> 01:05:01,188 I was really trying to do this big like teaching moment, you know, 1273 01:05:01,230 --> 01:05:05,610 in my head, like I'm going to show that there's folks confuse the two or whatever. 1274 01:05:05,610 --> 01:05:08,738 I was not expecting to feel so 1275 01:05:10,239 --> 01:05:13,576 seen by so many different people that I didn't know. 1276 01:05:13,576 --> 01:05:17,455 And it was powerful because it was so many people 1277 01:05:17,455 --> 01:05:19,957 and because I didn't know them, 1278 01:05:19,957 --> 01:05:22,710 you know, just the sense of humanity and connection. 1279 01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:25,171 And I think that's, my God. 1280 01:05:25,171 --> 01:05:26,213 If we were genuinely 1281 01:05:26,213 --> 01:05:30,551 just validating people on social media, that would be awesome, right? 1282 01:05:30,593 --> 01:05:33,596 Because it would there would be no filtering. 1283 01:05:33,971 --> 01:05:35,264 It would be the opposite. 1284 01:05:35,264 --> 01:05:39,226 And so, yeah, I think we should seek external validation, not praise, 1285 01:05:39,226 --> 01:05:43,272 but what your but what most people are seeking 1286 01:05:43,272 --> 01:05:45,608 is praise, They're not going after the good stuff. 1287 01:05:45,608 --> 01:05:46,317 They approximate. 1288 01:05:46,317 --> 01:05:49,362 They get the, the thing that kind of rhymes with it feels kind of 1289 01:05:49,362 --> 01:05:52,365 in the same camp but is fundamentally 1290 01:05:52,615 --> 01:05:56,035 You have a rule that you only validate the part of something 1291 01:05:56,035 --> 01:05:57,995 that is actually valid. Yeah. 1292 01:05:57,995 --> 01:06:00,665 That's right. And you call that I think the kernel of truth 1293 01:06:01,791 --> 01:06:04,085 say someone believes something 1294 01:06:04,085 --> 01:06:07,296 that is just outright false. 1295 01:06:08,005 --> 01:06:10,925 How do I validate them without agreeing to the false part? 1296 01:06:10,925 --> 01:06:12,468 I use this example in my book. 1297 01:06:12,468 --> 01:06:14,595 It's an extreme example. It's honest one. 1298 01:06:14,595 --> 01:06:17,932 I was working at the VA 1299 01:06:17,932 --> 01:06:20,935 with a client who had schizophrenia, 1300 01:06:21,102 --> 01:06:25,189 says someone who believes things that are and sees things that are not there. 1301 01:06:25,398 --> 01:06:27,525 This is as false as you can get, right? 1302 01:06:27,525 --> 01:06:32,113 And in this case, the client had said to me, you'll know if I go off my meds 1303 01:06:32,113 --> 01:06:35,116 because I think that you're colluding against me. 1304 01:06:35,157 --> 01:06:36,534 I worked with this guy for months. 1305 01:06:36,534 --> 01:06:36,826 He was. 1306 01:06:36,826 --> 01:06:38,995 Very stable, very. Sweet guy. 1307 01:06:38,995 --> 01:06:41,205 He stopped showing up. 1308 01:06:41,205 --> 01:06:45,543 He is brought by a family member to my office after several weeks, 1309 01:06:45,584 --> 01:06:50,381 and he is like a like an animal in a cage in my office. 1310 01:06:50,381 --> 01:06:51,716 Just like. 1311 01:06:51,716 --> 01:06:54,343 Very uncomfortable shaking. 1312 01:06:54,343 --> 01:06:58,389 Apparently he had gone off his meds and had like wallpapered his house 1313 01:06:58,389 --> 01:07:04,103 in tinfoil to prevent anthrax from coming in with the mail 1314 01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:07,940 because apparently the government was trying to take him down. 1315 01:07:07,940 --> 01:07:10,609 And of course I was part of that scheme. 1316 01:07:10,609 --> 01:07:14,196 So now, from this guy's perspective, based on what he's thinking, 1317 01:07:14,196 --> 01:07:18,284 I am trying to kill him and he is stuck in my office. 1318 01:07:18,492 --> 01:07:22,204 I do not see any validity in those thoughts. 1319 01:07:22,204 --> 01:07:24,123 They are not based on fact. 1320 01:07:24,123 --> 01:07:28,502 But if I thought that, in other words, 1321 01:07:28,502 --> 01:07:32,298 if I believed what he believed, of course I would be scared. 1322 01:07:32,590 --> 01:07:35,009 I would be terrified. 1323 01:07:35,009 --> 01:07:38,387 I would probably want to record the conversation 1324 01:07:38,387 --> 01:07:41,057 or have some evidence of my own. 1325 01:07:41,057 --> 01:07:43,684 And so that is how I approached him. 1326 01:07:43,684 --> 01:07:44,810 And it was very interesting 1327 01:07:44,810 --> 01:07:48,773 because all of the staff is involved at that point and everybody's like. 1328 01:07:48,814 --> 01:07:51,192 You know, do we sedate him? Like, what do we do? 1329 01:07:51,192 --> 01:07:52,693 He's acting. 1330 01:07:52,693 --> 01:07:55,196 And I just went in and was. Like. 1331 01:07:55,196 --> 01:07:57,323 Listen, you don't have to look at me. 1332 01:07:57,323 --> 01:08:00,034 You can look down. Do you want another person here? 1333 01:08:00,034 --> 01:08:02,328 Do you want to record the conversation? 1334 01:08:02,328 --> 01:08:05,539 I understand that you are really, really scared. 1335 01:08:05,539 --> 01:08:08,876 And if I were in your shoes, I would be really scared too. 1336 01:08:09,085 --> 01:08:09,794 So you don't. 1337 01:08:09,794 --> 01:08:12,463 You don't even have to talk if you don't want to. 1338 01:08:12,463 --> 01:08:13,964 I can just talk. 1339 01:08:13,964 --> 01:08:19,178 But I'm basically I'm validating the emotions 1340 01:08:19,261 --> 01:08:23,307 which are real and valid based on what he's believing. 1341 01:08:23,432 --> 01:08:26,227 His thoughts are invalid, but his emotions are valid. 1342 01:08:26,227 --> 01:08:30,231 This is one of the most important tools I want to give folks, 1343 01:08:30,397 --> 01:08:31,607 because this is where we get stuck. 1344 01:08:31,607 --> 01:08:35,861 We get stuck on

what's wrong, and looking for the kernel of truth 1345 01:08:35,861 --> 01:08:40,366 means I look for what's valid in spite of everything that's wrong. 1346 01:08:40,533 --> 01:08:44,161 And I get one of three things to focus on a person's 1347 01:08:44,161 --> 01:08:46,997 emotions, the thoughts or their behavior. 1348 01:08:46,997 --> 01:08:51,043 If their thoughts are not rational, their emotions may be. 1349 01:08:51,335 --> 01:08:54,880 Their behavior may be in response to those irrational thoughts, 1350 01:08:55,172 --> 01:08:58,926 if their behavior is invalid or ineffective, like my daughter, 1351 01:08:58,926 --> 01:09:03,597 I could still validate her emotions, her thoughts based on where she's coming from. 1352 01:09:03,848 --> 01:09:07,810 So it's just, again, I notice right away what strikes me 1353 01:09:07,810 --> 01:09:11,814 as problematic, which is often behavior when it's aggressive or hateful. 1354 01:09:12,189 --> 01:09:15,401 Sometimes it's it's thoughts when I disagree with them 1355 01:09:15,401 --> 01:09:19,613 and don't see the logic in them, in which case I'm just focused on, 1356 01:09:19,613 --> 01:09:23,117 okay, I can validate their behavior based on what they're thinking, right? 1357 01:09:23,409 --> 01:09:26,787 It makes sense that you're worried about aliens. 1358 01:09:26,787 --> 01:09:31,083 If you've been listening to a news channel that tells you UFOs are coming. 1359 01:09:31,709 --> 01:09:35,171 Okay, I don't agree with that, but I can see where you're coming from, 1360 01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,924 and I see why you're scared and I can validate while you're Right? 1361 01:09:38,966 --> 01:09:40,801 So it's you look at emotions, 1362 01:09:40,801 --> 01:09:44,930 thoughts and behavior and maybe their thoughts are false. 1363 01:09:44,972 --> 01:09:47,641 Like for example, in this case with this patient, 1364 01:09:47,641 --> 01:09:49,977 you know, what he was thinking wasn't true. 1365 01:09:49,977 --> 01:09:53,898 But how he felt in that moment, that moment, 1366 01:09:53,898 --> 01:09:57,484 and maybe his behavior because of how he felt, those are both valid. 1367 01:09:57,484 --> 01:09:59,320 And those are like you said, 1368 01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:02,531 a big part of this seems to be about putting yourself in that person's shoes. 1369 01:10:02,615 --> 01:10:03,032 It can't. 1370 01:10:03,032 --> 01:10:05,367 That's a that's a quick little trick to get there. 1371 01:10:05,367 --> 01:10:09,330 At the very least, I'm very clear in my head 1372 01:10:09,330 --> 01:10:12,875 with what is striking me as problematic here. 1373 01:10:12,958 --> 01:10:18,172 So, for instance, often with the news and politics today, it's immediately 1374 01:10:18,172 --> 01:10:22,801 apparent to me that I don't I don't see the validity in what somebody is saying. 1375 01:10:22,927 --> 01:10:24,678 I see that as a false narrative. 1376 01:10:24,678 --> 01:10:30,267 I see that as a lie, that those

thoughts are problematic, 1377 01:10:30,893 --> 01:10:33,062 I and invalid in my opinion. 1378 01:10:33,062 --> 01:10:38,651 I can see how somebody who believes that or is thinking that might feel 1379 01:10:38,776 --> 01:10:41,403 or might vote the way that they were voting, 1380 01:10:41,403 --> 01:10:43,656 or might say the things that they were saying. 1381 01:10:43,656 --> 01:10:46,867 I understand that I could validate that. 1382 01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:51,121 Given what you think, it makes sense that you're doing whatever. 1383 01:10:51,413 --> 01:10:54,792 That is different from me saying your thoughts are valid, 1384 01:10:54,959 --> 01:10:57,962 Are any politicians practicing validation? 1385 01:10:58,254 --> 01:11:00,172 Oh man, what a great question. 1386 01:11:00,172 --> 01:11:04,802 Not actively and not to alienate too many people, 1387 01:11:04,802 --> 01:11:08,555 but I think that Obama was often close. 1388 01:11:08,847 --> 01:11:12,226 He was a notorious reader and I. 1389 01:11:12,893 --> 01:11:13,602 Which is. 1390 01:11:13,602 --> 01:11:16,772 In my opinion, often an indication of somebody who really is 1391 01:11:16,772 --> 01:11:21,068 invested in empathy, in trying to understand experiences 1392 01:11:21,068 --> 01:11:24,071 from another person's perception or perspective. 1393 01:11:24,071 --> 01:11:27,408 he has some great quotes about the importance of, of empathy. 1394 01:11:27,908 --> 01:11:32,621 And I think he did his as best as any politician could. Do. 1395 01:11:33,497 --> 01:11:36,041 In trying to to practice some of that. 1396 01:11:36,041 --> 01:11:41,422 It seems like maybe validation online has maybe become like a buzzword. 1397 01:11:42,423 --> 01:11:44,174 What is the most common thing 1398 01:11:44,174 --> 01:11:49,471 people call validation that is actually doing harm? 1399 01:11:49,722 --> 01:11:52,725 Praise and manipulation? 1400 01:11:53,642 --> 01:11:55,561 I think it is probably the praise though. 1401 01:11:55,561 --> 01:11:58,939 This like, you know, you're seeking something that should be coming 1402 01:11:58,939 --> 01:12:03,277 from within, when really what they're seeking is, is praise. 1403 01:12:03,277 --> 01:12:07,156 And the reason they're seeking it is because they don't have a solid sense 1404 01:12:07,406 --> 01:12:10,951 of whether or not their experiences are valid, and so they distort them. 1405 01:12:10,951 --> 01:12:15,247 Is there a kind of person, maybe a situation where validating them 1406 01:12:15,873 --> 01:12:18,292 makes things worse? Sure. Yeah. 1407 01:12:18,292 --> 01:12:19,418 This is where you get into. 1408 01:12:19,418 --> 01:12:20,753 This is the. 1409 01:12:20,753 --> 01:12:23,422 Importance of only validate the valid. 1410 01:12:23,422 --> 01:12:28,177 So if with my daughter for instance, if I was to say like you know, 1411 01:12:28,677 --> 01:12:34,224 of course you are going to pitch a fit about this and like, or if I was just

1412 01:12:34,224 --> 01:12:37,353 really accommodating to her, like whining, whining, whining 1413 01:12:37,561 --> 01:12:41,273 right then I am I am validating something 1414 01:12:41,273 --> 01:12:44,276 that is not valid, which is her behavior, right? 1415 01:12:44,485 --> 01:12:48,781 I work with folks who, as I said before, are often suicidal or self-harming. 1416 01:12:48,864 --> 01:12:53,827 I need to be very careful not to validate that behavior. 1417 01:12:54,161 --> 01:12:57,581 I can validate why somebody would want to give an where 1418 01:12:57,581 --> 01:13:02,002 they're at self-harm or suicide, depending about depending on what I know 1419 01:13:02,002 --> 01:13:05,089 about the situation, I'm never going to validate that 1420 01:13:05,089 --> 01:13:08,884 that's an effective way to handle the situation is the distinction. 1421 01:13:08,884 --> 01:13:10,427 But it's critical, right? 1422 01:13:10,427 --> 01:13:14,681 If somebody has really bad arthritis, I can validate why they would not want to 1423 01:13:14,723 --> 01:13:18,519 work out, why they wouldn't want to exercise, why they'd want to lie in bed. 1424 01:13:18,852 --> 01:13:20,771 Of course, that makes perfect sense. 1425 01:13:20,771 --> 01:13:23,899 And if you keep doing that, you will feel worse. 1426 01:13:24,191 --> 01:13:25,442 Same thing with depression. 1427 01:13:25,442 --> 01:13:28,028 Same thing with anxiety, right? 1428 01:13:28,028 --> 01:13:31,031 Makes total sense that like, you want to 1429 01:13:31,323 --> 01:13:34,243 just be on social media and under your covers and not go to work 1430 01:13:34,243 --> 01:13:37,704 when you're really struggling to get by 1431 01:13:37,871 --> 01:13:40,874 and you're just really in a dark place, 1432 01:13:40,916 --> 01:13:45,212 of course you're behaving that way and you will feel worse. 1433 01:13:45,421 --> 01:13:47,297 That is a recipe for depression. 1434 01:13:47,297 --> 01:13:48,590 there's a lot of people watching that 1435 01:13:48,590 --> 01:13:52,428 probably have parents, loved ones, friends, you know, you know, 1436 01:13:52,553 --> 01:13:55,639 family members that are suffering from depression. 1437 01:13:55,681 --> 01:13:56,390 Right. 1438 01:13:56,390 --> 01:14:00,310 And first of all, is validation a cure for depression? 1439 01:14:00,436 --> 01:14:04,857 Is it a potential path towards a cure for depression? 1440 01:14:04,857 --> 01:14:10,779 And how do you validate someone's feelings that is going through depression, 1441 01:14:10,779 --> 01:14:14,575 but at the same time, don't push them down a deeper path of depression 1442 01:14:14,575 --> 01:14:17,035 or these suicidal thoughts. Yeah. 1443 01:14:17,035 --> 01:14:21,039 So there's a distinction between validation and reinforcement. 1444 01:14:21,081 --> 01:14:21,790 Right. 1445 01:14:21,790 --> 01:14:24,793 Validation can be reinforcing because it feels good. 1446 01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:29,590 And so I need to be careful not to kind of 1447 01:14:29,756 --> 01:14:32,718 say, well, of course you want to kill yourself. 1448 01:14:32,885 --> 01:14:35,429 Here's a knife. 1449 01:14:35,429 --> 01:14:35,846 Right. 1450 01:14:35,846 --> 01:14:40,392 Like, if I really see that as valid, then I would take no issue with them 1451 01:14:40,392 --> 01:14:44,521 hurting themselves or doing whatever it is they're doing to some extent. 1452 01:14:44,563 --> 01:14:45,230 Right. 1453 01:14:45,230 --> 01:14:49,276 And that is where that distinction between behavior and emotion and thoughts 1454 01:14:49,276 --> 01:14:50,903 comes into play. 1455 01:14:50,903 --> 01:14:54,823 Because I can say, and I need to say, of course you don't want to get out 1456 01:14:54,823 --> 01:14:55,240 of bed. 1457 01:14:55,240 --> 01:15:01,246 Of course this is hard, and that's why you need help, right? 1458 01:15:01,288 --> 01:15:06,710 I take I care about you so much that I can't just sit back 1459 01:15:06,710 --> 01:15:09,713 and let this continue. 1460 01:15:09,713 --> 01:15:11,632 And I'm not in a position to help. 1461 01:15:11,632 --> 01:15:14,843 I don't know how to treat depression, but I care about you. 1462 01:15:14,843 --> 01:15:16,803 And I see that you're struggling. 1463 01:15:16,803 --> 01:15:20,641 That's the very, very delicate line that you're trying 1464 01:15:20,682 --> 01:15:24,436 to to walk in, in supporting somebody who needs help. 1465 01:15:24,436 --> 01:15:28,649 It's really to get them to get that help and not be like, 1466 01:15:28,690 --> 01:15:32,402 so reinforcing that they, they don't really need it. 1467 01:15:32,402 --> 01:15:34,446 They're getting enough out of you. 1468 01:15:34,446 --> 01:15:34,863 Right. 1469 01:15:34,863 --> 01:15:37,866 So I need to be clear that like this is problematic. 1470 01:15:37,991 --> 01:15:42,496 You can't keep skipping work like this is adding up and this is not 1471 01:15:42,538 --> 01:15:45,749 this is going to make you feel worse and you feel horrible. 1472 01:15:45,749 --> 01:15:48,460 You haven't slept in four days. 1473 01:15:48,460 --> 01:15:49,962 This can't go on. 1474 01:15:49,962 --> 01:15:54,424 I'm not doing you any favors by pretending that this is not happening. 1475 01:15:54,841 --> 01:15:58,971 So it's that balance of like, I get it, I get it change, 1476 01:15:59,096 --> 01:16:02,015 I get it, I get it change what's in effective. 1477 01:16:02,015 --> 01:16:03,267 Validate what's valid. 1478 01:16:03,267 --> 01:16:05,227 Focus on changing what's not. 1479 01:16:05,227 --> 01:16:06,853 Yeah, that makes sense. 1480 01:16:06,853 --> 01:16:07,813 Let's talk about AI. 1481 01:16:07,813 --> 01:16:10,524 I want to figure out how AI fits into all this. Right. 1482 01:16:10,524 --> 01:16:13,902 So because validation 1483 01:16:13,902 --> 01:16:17,489 it starts with paying real attention to the other person. 1484 01:16:17,489 --> 01:16:21,910 But now we live in a world where

half the time people are just staring 1485 01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:23,620 at their phones. Right. 1486 01:16:23,620 --> 01:16:28,834 And they're feeling they're starting to feel from what I've seen, understood by 1487 01:16:28,834 --> 01:16:31,837 Claude ChatGPT as their therapist, like, 1488 01:16:31,837 --> 01:16:35,465 are we getting worse at this as humans? 1489 01:16:35,757 --> 01:16:36,800 A couple things there. 1490 01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:41,805 One is that Claude ChatGPT they can validate up to a point. 1491 01:16:41,805 --> 01:16:44,391 So for instance, they can't disclose. 1492 01:16:44,391 --> 01:16:47,936 And in many ways they can't like take, take action. 1493 01:16:48,103 --> 01:16:50,814 Sometimes they can kind of like rewrite an email for you. 1494 01:16:50,814 --> 01:16:51,064 Right? 1495 01:16:51,064 --> 01:16:54,026 But there's many ways in which they can't really intervene. 1496 01:16:55,319 --> 01:16:56,612 That said, 1497 01:16:56,612 --> 01:17:00,449 I do think part of what has become so addictive 1498 01:17:00,449 --> 01:17:05,245 and we have seen and as a psychologist, my God, the problems I see 1499 01:17:06,246 --> 01:17:10,375 with AI, it's that it can be so validating 1500 01:17:10,459 --> 01:17:13,795 that folks are kind of addicted to it 1501 01:17:13,837 --> 01:17:17,174 in the same way they would be with opioids or orgasms or any of these other things. 1502 01:17:17,215 --> 01:17:17,424 Right? 1503 01:17:17,424 --> 01:17:20,260 They're getting that hit of I totally get you. 1504 01:17:20,260 --> 01:17:22,888 It makes sense that you're struggling with this. Yes. 1505 01:17:22,888 --> 01:17:24,723 That is so horrible. 1506 01:17:24,723 --> 01:17:27,684 How unfair they're getting that hit. 1507 01:17:27,684 --> 01:17:30,687 And then they're, you know, 1508 01:17:31,021 --> 01:17:33,815 doing whatever AI says to do, right? 1509 01:17:33,815 --> 01:17:37,611 AI is very effective at implementing the validation with change. 1510 01:17:38,487 --> 01:17:43,075 Like, yes, this idea is brilliant and you're so smart and you should 1511 01:17:43,075 --> 01:17:46,495 continue to build this made up thing, this made up spaceship together. 1512 01:17:46,495 --> 01:17:49,665 Let's keep working on it, you know, so it can provide a low 1513 01:17:49,665 --> 01:17:52,668 level of validation that is in many ways very dangerous 1514 01:17:52,834 --> 01:17:56,254 because it's not necessarily validating the valid, is it? 1515 01:17:56,296 --> 01:17:58,048 It is saying what you want to hear, 1516 01:17:58,048 --> 01:18:00,926 but that's different from validating the valid. Yeah. 1517 01:18:00,926 --> 01:18:04,680 If it's but if it's making a lonely person feel more understood 1518 01:18:04,721 --> 01:18:08,684 than maybe the people in their own life, is that a good thing or is it? 1519 01:18:08,767 --> 01:18:10,435 Should we be taking that as a warning? 1520 01:18:10,435 --> 01:18:14,731 I have seen more

bad than good come of that, I would say, 1521 01:18:14,898 --> 01:18:20,737 because there is again no concern for you, for the person 1522 01:18:20,737 --> 01:18:25,242 when it comes to a ChatGPT, it is saying what you want to hear, 1523 01:18:25,242 --> 01:18:28,662 but that is not necessarily good for you, right? 1524 01:18:28,704 --> 01:18:31,707 Giving somebody who is anxious a lot of reassurance, 1525 01:18:31,707 --> 01:18:35,752 it is going to cause them to seek you out, seek out the chat, GPT, 1526 01:18:35,794 --> 01:18:36,878 whatever, more and more and more 1527 01:18:36,878 --> 01:18:38,672 which will make them more anxious, which will cause them to 1528 01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,592 it. It cycles things up. 1529 01:18:42,592 --> 01:18:45,262 It's not actually helping you. 1530 01:18:45,262 --> 01:18:48,890 Anything that feels good in the moment is going to lead to another click. 1531 01:18:48,890 --> 01:18:50,100 But is that helping you? 1532 01:18:50,100 --> 01:18:52,894 That's the question. And that's not its job. 1533 01:18:52,894 --> 01:18:54,688 Its job is often to be a sycophant. 1534 01:18:54,688 --> 01:18:57,399 It can be good at that. But is that what the AI wants? 1535 01:18:57,399 --> 01:18:59,025 It wants you to keep coming back to it. 1536 01:18:59,025 --> 01:19:01,570 It wants to serve ads or whatever it's going to serve at some point. 1537 01:19:01,570 --> 01:19:02,821 It wants to make more money. 1538 01:19:02,821 --> 01:19:05,907 The AI doesn't care about your feelings, but people don't feel 1539 01:19:05,907 --> 01:19:08,285 that they feel like it does. Yeah, that's the problem. 1540 01:19:08,285 --> 01:19:09,995 I mean, That's worth it. 1541 01:19:09,995 --> 01:19:14,541 That's where the brave New World situation is that we're so freaking 1542 01:19:14,541 --> 01:19:18,628 desperate for these signals that now that we're getting them, 1543 01:19:18,879 --> 01:19:23,884 it makes us very susceptible in the very ways I've explained. 1544 01:19:23,884 --> 01:19:29,556 But consider the motive of the quote unquote person on the other side of that. 1545 01:19:29,556 --> 01:19:31,516 And are they genuinely validating? 1546 01:19:31,516 --> 01:19:34,019 You know, it is not authentic. 1547 01:19:34,019 --> 01:19:37,272 It's made up and it's not for your good. 1548 01:19:37,272 --> 01:19:39,649 It's for the model. 1549 01:19:39,649 --> 01:19:42,569 You talk about the eight skills, okay. 1550 01:19:42,569 --> 01:19:46,448 You took something that therapists trained for years to do 1551 01:19:46,448 --> 01:19:49,659 and broke it into these eight skills that anyone can learn. 1552 01:19:50,243 --> 01:19:52,120 First of all, before I ask the next question, 1553 01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:53,330 what are those eight skills? 1554 01:19:53,330 --> 01:19:56,333 So we break them down, I say validation. 1555 01:19:56,333 --> 01:19:59,503 I never gave this definition validation, I guess I did it. 1556 01:19:59,503 --> 01:20:01,755 So it communicates that you're there, you get it and you care. 1557 01:20:01,755 --> 01:20:05,926 It has these qualities of mindfulness, understanding and empathy. 1558 01:20:06,009 --> 01:20:10,222 And when they're packaged in such a way, it can result in the other person 1559 01:20:10,222 --> 01:20:11,807 feeling accepted. 1560 01:20:11,807 --> 01:20:12,307 All right. 1561 01:20:12,307 --> 01:20:16,228 So these these skills help me 1562 01:20:16,269 --> 01:20:19,523 hit those notes in just the right way. 1563 01:20:19,523 --> 01:20:21,858 That mindfulness understanding and empathy. 1564 01:20:21,858 --> 01:20:24,569 and kind of stack them up like this on a scale of 1565 01:20:25,862 --> 01:20:28,782 1 to 8, those lower ones, the attending 1566 01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:32,285 and copying which we talked about, they're just showing mindfulness. 1567 01:20:32,327 --> 01:20:33,912 They're just a way of signaling. 1568 01:20:33,912 --> 01:20:36,081 I'm paying attention to what you're saying. 1569 01:20:36,081 --> 01:20:39,209 I'm hearing you without judgment. 1570 01:20:39,251 --> 01:20:40,001 That's it. 1571 01:20:40,001 --> 01:20:44,047 It's a very low signal, but as we've discussed, it can be very powerful. 1572 01:20:44,047 --> 01:20:49,845 And if you don't understand or you don't empathize, that is all you can do. 1573 01:20:49,970 --> 01:20:54,307 And remember, as clinicians, by design, we are working with folks 1574 01:20:54,307 --> 01:20:58,520 whose thoughts are often distorted, whose behavior is often 1575 01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:02,691 very ineffective, and for whom it can be very difficult to validate. 1576 01:21:02,691 --> 01:21:07,904 And so we needed strategies to help us reliably and authentically do this. 1577 01:21:07,904 --> 01:21:11,616 And that's what those first two skills do, that attending and copying 1578 01:21:11,616 --> 01:21:14,995 help us just send that signal when it's really hard to do. So. 1579 01:21:14,995 --> 01:21:19,124 From there we have three skills to communicate understanding, 1580 01:21:19,457 --> 01:21:23,837 contextualizing, equalizing, and proposing, which we discussed. 1581 01:21:23,962 --> 01:21:24,671 All right. 1582 01:21:24,671 --> 01:21:29,259 That shows not just that I'm paying attention, but I get it on some degree. 1583 01:21:29,259 --> 01:21:32,804 I understand I can see how you got 1584 01:21:32,804 --> 01:21:35,807 to how you're thinking or how you're feeling or why you did that. 1585 01:21:35,807 --> 01:21:36,683 Right. 1586 01:21:36,683 --> 01:21:41,271 And at the highest level, we can say, I don't just understand it intellectually, 1587 01:21:41,563 --> 01:21:46,318 emotionally, I get it, I empathize, I've been there. 1588 01:21:46,318 --> 01:21:48,111 Disclosure. Right? 1589 01:21:48,111 --> 01:21:52,115 I'm willing to put myself out taking action. 1590 01:21:53,241 --> 01:21:55,535 I am affected, 1591 01:21:55,535 -->

01:21:59,080 emoting, crying, having an actual emotional reaction. 1592 01:22:00,206 --> 01:22:02,375 Those are the strategies 1593 01:22:02,375 --> 01:22:05,670 that we use, and I always use the most powerful one I can. 1594 01:22:05,712 --> 01:22:08,924 I mean, if I can disclose and it's an appropriate time to do 1595 01:22:08,924 --> 01:22:12,218 so, I'll do it because I know that that's going to send a powerful hit. 1596 01:22:12,218 --> 01:22:15,639 When you walk into a room, can you tell within a minute 1597 01:22:15,639 --> 01:22:19,893 whether someone actually feels understood by the people around them? 1598 01:22:20,226 --> 01:22:23,438 Like, what are you picking up on that the rest of us would miss? 1599 01:22:23,605 --> 01:22:27,859 One of the most basic things I'm looking for is the ratio, 1600 01:22:27,901 --> 01:22:32,030 kind of of how much people are attending to themselves versus others, right? 1601 01:22:32,072 --> 01:22:33,323 And so like in that exchange 1602 01:22:33,323 --> 01:22:36,493 I described in the beginning where I came in and I was focused on me. 1603 01:22:36,618 --> 01:22:37,077 Right. 1604 01:22:37,077 --> 01:22:39,287 That was off balance. 1605 01:22:39,287 --> 01:22:41,247 I was not attending to you. 1606 01:22:41,247 --> 01:22:44,626 And so if I'm watching you interact with with your staff here, 1607 01:22:44,626 --> 01:22:48,713 and I'm seeing a lot of focus on you, which would make sense. 1608 01:22:48,713 --> 01:22:51,508 You're the host. They're all spinning around trying to help you. 1609 01:22:51,508 --> 01:22:54,302 But if I also see you attending to them. 1610 01:22:54,302 --> 01:22:55,971 Hey, you need some water? 1611 01:22:55,971 --> 01:22:56,721 Hey, how's it going? 1612 01:22:56,721 --> 01:22:58,807 Hey, thanks so much. Right. 1613 01:22:58,807 --> 01:23:03,436 I am seeing some degree of equality in the dynamic. 1614 01:23:03,770 --> 01:23:06,856 Those are the types of things that I'm attending to. 1615 01:23:06,898 --> 01:23:09,234 It's really just attention. 1616 01:23:09,234 --> 01:23:11,736 Where are people putting their attention is. 1617 01:23:11,736 --> 01:23:13,363 And is it all on one person? 1618 01:23:13,363 --> 01:23:14,948 Is it across the room? 1619 01:23:14,948 --> 01:23:16,366 What does that look like? 1620 01:23:16,366 --> 01:23:20,120 So tension that's the most important maybe because and can 1621 01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:23,123 that be taught or is that something you have to again repetition. 1622 01:23:23,248 --> 01:23:26,084 Absolutely be taught and practiced through repetition. 1623 01:23:26,084 --> 01:23:26,751 Right. 1624 01:23:26,751 --> 01:23:29,754 And also is that attention positive or negative? 1625 01:23:30,380 --> 01:23:35,301 I didn't interview with this woman actually. 1626 01:23:35,510 --> 01:23:37,012 And my lord. 1627 01:23:37,012 --> 01:23:39,180 She had these. Guys just running. 1628 01:23:39,180 --> 01:23:40,557 Circles around her. 1629 01:23:40,557 --> 01:23:41,433 Because like she was. 1630 01:23:41,433 --> 01:23:45,478 Very snappy and the negative attention was just. 1631 01:23:45,478 --> 01:23:50,191 So you got a sense that there was some bite behind that because she would kind 1632 01:23:50,191 --> 01:23:52,569 of, you know, give a look and everybody would like scramble. 1633 01:23:52,569 --> 01:23:55,405 And, you know, that some stuff had gone down in the past, right? 1634 01:23:55,405 --> 01:23:58,116 So that attention can be positive. 1635 01:23:58,116 --> 01:24:00,535 Let me get you some water or it can be negative. 1636 01:24:00,535 --> 01:24:02,287 I'll bite your head off. 1637 01:24:02,287 --> 01:24:05,165 Dmitri, I love you. You're the best. 1638 01:24:05,165 --> 01:24:06,332 I've not been attending to you. 1639 01:24:06,332 --> 01:24:09,335 I I like he's focused. He's great at what? 1640 01:24:09,377 --> 01:24:11,046 You're great at what you do, by the way. 1641 01:24:12,255 --> 01:24:12,547 Okay. 1642 01:24:12,547 --> 01:24:15,467 And we talked a little bit about disclosing, 1643 01:24:15,467 --> 01:24:18,261 Sharing something from your own life 1644 01:24:18,261 --> 01:24:21,473 so the person feels less alone. 1645 01:24:21,473 --> 01:24:26,936 Where is the line between that and quietly making the moment about you? 1646 01:24:27,020 --> 01:24:32,484 Yeah, it's a thin line, which is why this one takes a little bit of of practice. 1647 01:24:32,567 --> 01:24:34,778 We've all had that parent who's like, back. 1648 01:24:34,778 --> 01:24:36,946 In my day, we had to. Right. 1649 01:24:36,946 --> 01:24:40,784 So there's the issue where you're like trumping their story with yours 1650 01:24:40,909 --> 01:24:44,245 or you make it all about you. 1651 01:24:44,287 --> 01:24:47,832 And there's a little caveat here, which is that 1652 01:24:48,458 --> 01:24:53,004 I have found it really tricky to to navigate disclosing with folks 1653 01:24:53,004 --> 01:24:59,552 who are very emotionally intelligent, because if you disclose with them, 1654 01:24:59,636 --> 01:25:03,640 they'll often take that as a cue from you that you want to talk about yourself. 1655 01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:07,602 And so they're very good at getting you lost in your story. 1656 01:25:07,727 --> 01:25:11,523 They'll do this like, oh my gosh, you had cancer. 1657 01:25:11,898 --> 01:25:13,024 What happened? 1658 01:25:13,024 --> 01:25:13,691 Tell me. 1659 01:25:13,691 --> 01:25:16,694 Like they'll really lean in and if you're not careful, 1660 01:25:17,237 --> 01:25:20,240 you know, 20 minutes in and you're still just talking about you. 1661 01:25:20,281 --> 01:25:22,742 So it has to be this very. 1662 01:25:22,742 --> 01:25:27,580 We do this like, flip it back strategy. 1663 01:25:27,580 --> 01:25:32,252 Actually, you see this I've seen this talked about in the dating literature. 1664 01:25:32,502 --> 01:25:35,588 They talk about like you know, disclose

a little but then reflect it 1665 01:25:35,588 --> 01:25:38,591 back to the other person as like a dating technique. 1666 01:25:38,591 --> 01:25:42,554 And it it works in therapy and just about any dynamic as well. 1667 01:25:42,595 --> 01:25:46,015 Like whatever it is that you disclose, just find a way to like map 1668 01:25:46,015 --> 01:25:49,018 it really quickly back to the other person so you don't get too 1669 01:25:49,060 --> 01:25:49,978 caught up in yourself. 1670 01:25:49,978 --> 01:25:50,562 I feel like. 1671 01:25:50,562 --> 01:25:53,690 You, if I'm not mistaken, talked a little bit about when you were dating 1672 01:25:53,982 --> 01:25:55,775 using this. Tell me about that. 1673 01:25:55,775 --> 01:25:57,193 Which one did it? 1674 01:25:57,193 --> 01:26:00,280 Did it. Ever backfire on you? Oh, gosh. 1675 01:26:01,447 --> 01:26:02,031 I always 1676 01:26:02,031 --> 01:26:05,910 feel like this one will backfire with me because in therapy, I use it a lot. 1677 01:26:05,952 --> 01:26:10,498 So I disclose a lot, which I feel like is historically a very controversial thing. 1678 01:26:10,540 --> 01:26:12,500 Like, the therapist shouldn't talk about themselves. 1679 01:26:12,500 --> 01:26:15,211 They're supposed to be, you know, it's all about you. 1680 01:26:15,211 --> 01:26:19,507 It's a messed up relationship if there's no equality in it. 1681 01:26:19,841 --> 01:26:20,258 Right? 1682 01:26:20,258 --> 01:26:21,676 In my experience. 1683 01:26:21,676 --> 01:26:27,015 Still, that said, it's it's very easy to get caught up in your own thing 1684 01:26:27,098 --> 01:26:31,102 and in the same thing in the same way that you might with a relationship. 1685 01:26:31,102 --> 01:26:32,395 Yeah. 1686 01:26:32,395 --> 01:26:35,481 I can't think of anything right off the top of because people. 1687 01:26:35,481 --> 01:26:40,987 Like probably talking about themselves more than they do, inquiring and trying 1688 01:26:40,987 --> 01:26:44,282 to get your story and then not relating it back to my own story in my head. 1689 01:26:44,532 --> 01:26:48,369 You know, we're wired to probably want to talk about ourselves, 1690 01:26:48,411 --> 01:26:49,370 want to think about ourselves. 1691 01:26:49,370 --> 01:26:52,373 But in order to build a true relationship, 1692 01:26:52,415 --> 01:26:56,711 you actually have to give a ish about what the other person feels and things. 1693 01:26:56,711 --> 01:26:57,587 That's exactly right. 1694 01:26:57,587 --> 01:26:58,963 I think that's one of the best, like, 1695 01:26:58,963 --> 01:27:02,800 dating techniques is to like, get the other person talking. 1696 01:27:02,926 --> 01:27:04,886 It's like one of the most basic strategies 1697 01:27:04,886 --> 01:27:08,890 I teach folks, like right out the gate is like, ask questions, 1698 01:27:09,015 --> 01:27:13,353 think about how much time you're talking relative to how much you're listening. 1699 01:27:14,896 --> 01:27:16,105 The balance

should be that 1700 01:27:16,105 --> 01:27:19,901 you're listening more than you're talking in in most situations. 1701 01:27:19,943 --> 01:27:23,488 Adam granted, some was talking about some research on 1702 01:27:23,863 --> 01:27:27,575 really good leaders and looking at the ratio of how much 1703 01:27:27,575 --> 01:27:29,786 they talk, relative to how much they listen. 1704 01:27:29,786 --> 01:27:34,707 And the more effective a leader is, the more they tend to be 1705 01:27:34,707 --> 01:27:37,752 in positions of listening rather than talking, which is, 1706 01:27:37,752 --> 01:27:40,838 I think, very interesting, especially when you look at some of the 1707 01:27:40,838 --> 01:27:44,801 more kind of narcissistic CEO types that can be out there. 1708 01:27:45,134 --> 01:27:49,514 To really lead well, you have to understand. 1709 01:27:50,056 --> 01:27:53,393 You have to understand the organization and the people that you lead. 1710 01:27:53,559 --> 01:27:56,354 And the only way to get there is by listening. 1711 01:27:56,354 --> 01:28:00,191 If you're just talking, you're only looking at the experience 1712 01:28:00,191 --> 01:28:02,860 through your own lens. That's not effective. 1713 01:28:02,860 --> 01:28:04,779 It will come back to bite you. 1714 01:28:04,779 --> 01:28:08,074 when you're listening to, you know, let's just say you have two hypotheticals. 1715 01:28:08,074 --> 01:28:12,620 You have a room with business leaders all in it or a team in it. 1716 01:28:12,620 --> 01:28:15,248 And maybe you also have, on the other hand, 1717 01:28:15,248 --> 01:28:19,460 just you're out to dinner with a group of friends is the smartest person 1718 01:28:19,460 --> 01:28:20,336 in both of those rooms. 1719 01:28:20,336 --> 01:28:23,381 The person that's probably the one listening, the most. 1720 01:28:23,506 --> 01:28:25,550 Certainly the most emotionally intelligent. 1721 01:28:25,550 --> 01:28:28,261 I would say smartest. I don't know, Okay. 1722 01:28:28,261 --> 01:28:29,637 Maybe, Maybe not. 1723 01:28:29,637 --> 01:28:33,182 But I would say that the emotionally intelligent 1724 01:28:33,182 --> 01:28:36,894 folks tend to pick up the threads. 1725 01:28:37,061 --> 01:28:37,937 Yeah. 1726 01:28:37,937 --> 01:28:42,775 And even if they are talking, they are talking through the other 1727 01:28:42,775 --> 01:28:48,197 person's experience, or they're simply relating something of theirs to that. 1728 01:28:48,281 --> 01:28:51,701 It is it is very again, it comes back to that attention. 1729 01:28:51,743 --> 01:28:52,285 Right? 1730 01:28:52,285 --> 01:28:56,998 And emotionally intelligent people are very sensitive to the needs 1731 01:28:56,998 --> 01:29:00,335 of other people, and most people want to be talking about themselves. 1732 01:29:00,335 --> 01:29:03,296 And so they facilitate that to some extent. 1733 01:29:03,296 --> 01:29:03,546 Yeah. 1734 01:29:03,546 --> 01:29:06,215 It kind of goes back to like how

to win friends and influence people. 1735 01:29:06,215 --> 01:29:09,010 Whereas yeah. it's reinforcing. 1736 01:29:09,010 --> 01:29:10,345 It's dopamine. 1737 01:29:10,345 --> 01:29:12,138 Let's talk about your father. Right. 1738 01:29:12,138 --> 01:29:14,349 If I'm not mistaken your dad went to West Point. 1739 01:29:14,349 --> 01:29:14,849 You did. 1740 01:29:14,849 --> 01:29:16,225 He was a military man. 1741 01:29:16,225 --> 01:29:18,853 Yeah. He didn't show much emotion. No no no. 1742 01:29:18,853 --> 01:29:20,646 Well he's like a tricky guy. 1743 01:29:20,646 --> 01:29:21,564 He's Italian. 1744 01:29:21,564 --> 01:29:23,316 Okay. as am I as you could tell. 1745 01:29:23,316 --> 01:29:26,778 I talk a lot with my hands. But yeah. 1746 01:29:26,778 --> 01:29:31,949 Military guys raised in the 50s. 1747 01:29:31,991 --> 01:29:35,453 60s not very emotionally dynamic. 1748 01:29:35,495 --> 01:29:39,540 He would always say, like, if you tell him something really big, he would say, 1749 01:29:39,582 --> 01:29:41,417 oh, you got to be kidding me. 1750 01:29:41,417 --> 01:29:45,713 You could tell him the Pistons won the playoffs. 1751 01:29:45,922 --> 01:29:48,132 Oh my gosh, you got to be kidding me. 1752 01:29:48,132 --> 01:29:49,509 Dad, I have cancer. 1753 01:29:49,509 --> 01:29:51,260 Oh, you got to be kidding me, right? 1754 01:29:51,260 --> 01:29:55,556 Like that is about the range of his negative emotion display. 1755 01:29:55,973 --> 01:29:58,684 He can be very animated when it comes to positive emotions, 1756 01:29:58,684 --> 01:30:02,688 but as a military man 1757 01:30:02,688 --> 01:30:06,692 from decades ago, his range of negative emotions is quite narrow. 1758 01:30:06,943 --> 01:30:12,156 Interestingly, that means that in order for me to kind of speak to him 1759 01:30:12,156 --> 01:30:17,745 in a way that feels psychologically safe would not be for me to say 1760 01:30:17,829 --> 01:30:21,707 that I'm feeling super depressed about my recent cancer diagnosis. 1761 01:30:21,707 --> 01:30:25,211 I feel a fair degree of embarrassment and some amount of even humiliation, 1762 01:30:25,211 --> 01:30:28,881 which I know must sound strange, but I can't help but cry myself to sleep. 1763 01:30:28,881 --> 01:30:30,049 He would be like, 1764 01:30:31,259 --> 01:30:33,261 you got to be kidding me. 1765 01:30:33,261 --> 01:30:34,137 You know what I mean? 1766 01:30:34,137 --> 01:30:37,432 And so for me, when I do talk to him 1767 01:30:37,432 --> 01:30:41,352 about heavy stuff, I stay much more narrow. 1768 01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:46,065 So he had a health thing a few years back, and he told me about it, 1769 01:30:46,065 --> 01:30:49,527 and I didn't say, I feel depressed, scared. 1770 01:30:49,735 --> 01:30:52,321 I said, you got to be kidding me, 1771 01:30:52,321 --> 01:30:54,949 because that's within his wheelhouse. 1772 01:30:54,949 --> 01:30:59,287 That is his where he's comfortable, right? 1773 01:30:59,328 --> 01:31:02,415 And again, part of validation is being able 1774 01:31:02,415 --> 01:31:05,793 to create a psychologically safe space for somebody. 1775 01:31:05,793 --> 01:31:09,130 And that means working within their bandwidth, not yours. 1776 01:31:09,172 --> 01:31:13,676 That means accepting, not trying to change, at least not in that moment. 1777 01:31:13,759 --> 01:31:14,927 It feels, you know, you're 1778 01:31:14,927 --> 01:31:15,428 it seems like 1779 01:31:15,428 --> 01:31:21,601 you're very emotionally intelligent, but in the context of how you grew up, 1780 01:31:21,767 --> 01:31:24,604 it seemed like the opposite of that environment. 1781 01:31:24,604 --> 01:31:26,647 How do you how did. That. 1782 01:31:26,647 --> 01:31:28,024 You know, complete when it happened? 1783 01:31:28,024 --> 01:31:32,320 I feel like I feel like I see a lot of people like especially. 1784 01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:34,280 I think our generation 1785 01:31:35,490 --> 01:31:36,824 nowadays, we do a lot. 1786 01:31:36,824 --> 01:31:40,453 We're really you've got young kids around the same age as me. 1787 01:31:40,453 --> 01:31:45,416 And so we've been inundated with like positive parenting and like we. 1788 01:31:45,416 --> 01:31:48,419 Are. Working full time and playing full 1789 01:31:48,419 --> 01:31:51,839 time with the kids and really trying to validate their emotions. 1790 01:31:51,839 --> 01:31:55,760 My mom didn't give a crap about the validity of my emotions. 1791 01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:57,887 She could care less, right? 1792 01:31:57,887 --> 01:31:58,596 Like we were just 1793 01:31:58,596 --> 01:32:01,641 running around the neighborhood and getting screamed at when we got in. 1794 01:32:01,849 --> 01:32:04,060 There was just it was a different time. 1795 01:32:04,060 --> 01:32:09,565 I also think I struggled with that a lot. 1796 01:32:09,941 --> 01:32:12,902 know a lot of women I think struggled 1797 01:32:12,902 --> 01:32:19,700 with being unseen in their emotions, unseen in their 1798 01:32:19,784 --> 01:32:23,788 or misrepresented, let's say, in their sexuality. 1799 01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:24,747 At least. 1800 01:32:24,747 --> 01:32:26,999 Again, for I can speak for my generation. 1801 01:32:26,999 --> 01:32:30,211 And I think that has led to a lot of problems. 1802 01:32:31,128 --> 01:32:33,548 But part of what I'm trying to do with this book 1803 01:32:33,548 --> 01:32:38,052 and with this information is to show how these this insight 1804 01:32:38,052 --> 01:32:44,141 that's awareness can be a superpower, even if it wasn't honed or nourished. 1805 01:32:44,183 --> 01:32:47,186 It's a superpower, like flying, like 1806 01:32:47,228 --> 01:32:51,566 if you can fly, it's important that you not just fly into walls, right? 1807 01:32:51,607 --> 01:32:53,442 You've got to figure out how to kind of navigate this. 1808 01:32:53,442 --> 01:32:55,778 And then it's a tremendous power. Right. 1809

01:32:55,778 --> 01:32:58,573 And that is very much how I see a lot of this stuff. 1810 01:32:58,573 --> 01:33:01,576 Can you take me back to the first time that you watched 1811 01:33:02,618 --> 01:33:03,369 validation 1812 01:33:03,369 --> 01:33:06,789 actually work the moment you saw like. 1813 01:33:06,789 --> 01:33:08,249 Whoa, what just happened? 1814 01:33:08,249 --> 01:33:09,834 Yeah, I talk about this in my book. 1815 01:33:09,834 --> 01:33:14,547 It was this super weird experience that like, now in in retrospect, 1816 01:33:14,547 --> 01:33:15,339 I can see like, oh, 1817 01:33:15,339 --> 01:33:19,802 this was kind of weird, but at the time it was just deeply meaningful. 1818 01:33:19,844 --> 01:33:22,346 I had gone over to a friend's house to play 1819 01:33:22,346 --> 01:33:24,682 and she wasn't home yet from dance. 1820 01:33:24,682 --> 01:33:26,517 So I was just waiting in the kitchen. 1821 01:33:26,517 --> 01:33:32,064 And the mom is like unpacking groceries, and she knocks over a two liter of pop 1822 01:33:33,149 --> 01:33:35,484 soda. I'm from the Midwest. 1823 01:33:35,484 --> 01:33:39,697 The two liter of like, Coca Cola spills and she just starts bawling. 1824 01:33:39,697 --> 01:33:42,033 And I am like, you know, I'm seven. 1825 01:33:42,033 --> 01:33:44,368 So presumably this is because the coke spilled, right? 1826 01:33:44,368 --> 01:33:45,661 So I'm like, it's okay. 1827 01:33:45,661 --> 01:33:48,539 I go to like helper. And she starts 1828 01:33:49,832 --> 01:33:50,708 sobbing about her 1829 01:33:50,708 --> 01:33:55,171 marriage and how this guy is cheating on her 1830 01:33:55,171 --> 01:33:59,383 and it's falling apart and she doesn't know what to do, 1831 01:33:59,383 --> 01:34:02,303 and they're going to be separating or divorcing or something. 1832 01:34:02,303 --> 01:34:04,555 And all. 1833 01:34:04,555 --> 01:34:08,225 All I was just trying to do in that moment was like, make her feel better. 1834 01:34:08,267 --> 01:34:08,643 You know? 1835 01:34:08,643 --> 01:34:10,394 Like I was just worried about this woman. 1836 01:34:10,394 --> 01:34:11,562 And I said something 1837 01:34:11,562 --> 01:34:16,192 to the effect of like, oh, it must feel like you're, you know, dying 1838 01:34:16,192 --> 01:34:20,529 and being born all at once or something just very intense for a seven year old. 1839 01:34:20,738 --> 01:34:24,408 And she just looked so she was like, yes. 1840 01:34:25,618 --> 01:34:29,330 And I frankly felt so powerful. 1841 01:34:29,538 --> 01:34:32,124 I was like, what did I do? 1842 01:34:32,124 --> 01:34:34,210 Like, yay! 1843 01:34:34,210 --> 01:34:37,213 This was this really, like, 1844 01:34:37,254 --> 01:34:38,339 touching moment. 1845 01:34:38,339 --> 01:34:41,634 I happen to just say this thing that soothed 1846 01:34:41,634 --> 01:34:44,637 this adult superpower, right? 1847 01:34:44,637 --> 01:34:47,973 And it a light bulb 1848 01:34:47,973 --> 01:34:51,769 went off for me that like, what was that? 1849 01:34:51,811 --> 01:34:55,690 And I would say that I spent a lot of years chasing that, 1850 01:34:55,690 --> 01:34:57,900 you know, trying to find those moments with people. 1851 01:34:57,900 --> 01:35:00,903 I think probably that's why I became a psychologist. 1852 01:35:01,112 --> 01:35:03,739 if that moment never happened, do you think you'd be doing this right now? 1853 01:35:03,739 --> 01:35:06,659 Yeah. Because because I've had many others like Okay. 1854 01:35:06,659 --> 01:35:11,747 Since then, I was always just kind of trying to chase those, 1855 01:35:11,789 --> 01:35:16,168 find those private moments of connection with people, trying to find a way 1856 01:35:16,168 --> 01:35:18,003 to say the thing they needed to hear. 1857 01:35:18,003 --> 01:35:20,464 Did that feel really good on the inside? 1858 01:35:20,464 --> 01:35:24,176 Not just like you're powerful, especially at that age, but like like 1859 01:35:24,301 --> 01:35:27,054 like you said, like a superpower. Like, what the hell did I just do? 1860 01:35:27,054 --> 01:35:29,932 All I did was just say some words. And this person, 1861 01:35:29,932 --> 01:35:32,560 like, their whole demeanor, everything about them just changed. 1862 01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:36,689 And for someone who was sensitive, I think to feel like that sensitivity 1863 01:35:36,731 --> 01:35:41,527 could do something positive for others was really powerful for me. 1864 01:35:41,527 --> 01:35:43,320 And it was very validating. 1865 01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:46,323 It was like, there's utility in this. 1866 01:35:46,323 --> 01:35:49,285 This isn't a burden necessarily. 1867 01:35:49,285 --> 01:35:51,287 Right? Like, this is this is who I am. 1868 01:35:51,287 --> 01:35:53,497 This can be a positive thing for other people. 1869 01:35:53,497 --> 01:35:56,459 And that has really shaped my life. 1870 01:35:56,459 --> 01:36:01,338 Like, how can I be of service through this to others? 1871 01:36:01,589 --> 01:36:04,341 That has always been my Northstar. 1872 01:36:04,341 --> 01:36:07,136 And I'm sure you get so many people reaching out to you after your book 1873 01:36:07,136 --> 01:36:10,347 that are using this in the real world and changing other people's 1874 01:36:10,347 --> 01:36:13,350 lives, changing their own the way they feel about other people even? 1875 01:36:13,392 --> 01:36:16,854 Yeah, it's very humbling, I'll say that. 1876 01:36:17,021 --> 01:36:19,607 think it's the greatest thing I could do with my life 1877 01:36:19,607 --> 01:36:22,568 is to help people use whatever experiences they have to connect 1878 01:36:22,568 --> 01:36:23,736 better with each other. 1879 01:36:23,736 --> 01:36:26,530 I think that's what it's all about, frankly. 100%. 1880 01:36:26,530 --> 01:36:28,199 And at seven, 1881 01:36:28,199 --> 01:36:31,702 did you realize in that moment exactly what you did and like, okay, 1882 01:36:31,744 --> 01:36:33,746

now I'm going to try to go do that again tomorrow, the next day. 1883 01:36:33,746 --> 01:36:36,916 Or did you do you not put it together at that young of an age? 1884 01:36:37,208 --> 01:36:38,542 I thought about it a lot. 1885 01:36:38,542 --> 01:36:42,463 You know, so much that I can I can still recall it now, but I don't think. 1886 01:36:42,505 --> 01:36:46,467 And then I would notice, like, you know, years later with like a friend 1887 01:36:46,467 --> 01:36:49,386 or somebody, like in high school, I was always the person people went to. 1888 01:36:49,386 --> 01:36:51,055 And it was that feeling. 1889 01:36:51,055 --> 01:36:53,641 So I knew that I was mapping on to this feeling. 1890 01:36:53,641 --> 01:36:55,810 I just couldn't reliably hit it. 1891 01:36:55,810 --> 01:36:57,561 You know, I was kind of like throwing darts. 1892 01:36:57,561 --> 01:37:01,440 And then when I learned these skills, when I was training to become a therapist, 1893 01:37:01,440 --> 01:37:02,775 I was like, oh. 1894 01:37:02,775 --> 01:37:05,194 That's what I was doing. 1895 01:37:05,194 --> 01:37:09,865 And here's how I can reliably hit that, and here's how I can get better 1896 01:37:09,865 --> 01:37:11,158 at throwing those darts. Right? 1897 01:37:11,158 --> 01:37:13,160 And now you hit the bullseye every time. Now 1898 01:37:14,411 --> 01:37:15,788 I much, I get much closer. 1899 01:37:15,788 --> 01:37:16,664 Yeah, yeah. 1900 01:37:16,664 --> 01:37:18,874 Let's talk a little bit about your patience. Right. 1901 01:37:18,874 --> 01:37:21,836 And this is so important because you've sat 1902 01:37:21,836 --> 01:37:25,005 across from people who genuinely wanted to die, 1903 01:37:25,005 --> 01:37:29,802 and your job was to keep them alive, basically, or change how they feel. 1904 01:37:29,885 --> 01:37:31,512 What did that teach you? 1905 01:37:31,512 --> 01:37:34,682 That kind of no executive coaching 1906 01:37:34,682 --> 01:37:37,685 room ever could. 1907 01:37:38,060 --> 01:37:41,647 That my own suffering is incredibly powerful 1908 01:37:42,022 --> 01:37:45,025 in those moments when I, 1909 01:37:45,568 --> 01:37:48,237 when I think back to some of the real turning points 1910 01:37:48,237 --> 01:37:52,491 with really challenging clients, it was always when I was vulnerable 1911 01:37:52,575 --> 01:37:57,037 and extended, you know, related to them, 1912 01:37:57,121 --> 01:38:01,750 disclosed something to them in a way that made them feel seen. 1913 01:38:02,042 --> 01:38:06,171 That was the turning point, and that has been 1914 01:38:06,171 --> 01:38:10,009 the greatest lesson of my like, I'll have these things happen, like the cancer. 1915 01:38:10,217 --> 01:38:14,138 And in the moment I am thinking, no good can come of this. 1916 01:38:14,138 --> 01:38:19,268 And yet there's a deeper part of me that knows I will pay this forward. 1917 01:38:19,310 --> 01:38:24,690 This will be of service to someone other than me if I can get myself through this. 1918 01:38:24,773 --> 01:38:27,776 Because that is what those experiences have taught me. 1919 01:38:27,818 --> 01:38:32,197 It's that like you move people by having been moved yourself, 1920 01:38:32,197 --> 01:38:34,199 and if you can kind of store 1921 01:38:34,199 --> 01:38:37,953 that stuff within you and then find a way to challenge it, channel it, 1922 01:38:37,953 --> 01:38:41,874 I should say, in the right moment, at the right time, with the right person, 1923 01:38:42,625 --> 01:38:45,628 you can really change the course of someone's life. 1924 01:38:45,794 --> 01:38:49,840 I'm so grateful that I have like the training and skills to do that, 1925 01:38:49,882 --> 01:38:55,054 but really I, I try and find ways to do that outside of my work as well. 1926 01:38:55,304 --> 01:38:58,474 You know, just whatever suffering I'm experiencing 1927 01:38:58,474 --> 01:39:02,353 or have experienced, how do I connect it to something greater than myself? 1928 01:39:02,353 --> 01:39:04,271 How do I use it to help someone? 1929 01:39:04,271 --> 01:39:07,483 Is there one person you were not able to reach? 1930 01:39:07,942 --> 01:39:10,527 Yeah, I can think of at least one. 1931 01:39:10,527 --> 01:39:13,530 One that I'm even still in communication with. 1932 01:39:13,572 --> 01:39:17,284 I wouldn't say not able to reach. 1933 01:39:17,284 --> 01:39:19,745 It was not able to change. 1934 01:39:19,745 --> 01:39:22,748 I have had a few of those and there I rely 1935 01:39:22,748 --> 01:39:26,251 on my training too, which is that, you know, everybody has free will. 1936 01:39:26,251 --> 01:39:27,920 I am not God. 1937 01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:29,380 I can do the best that I can 1938 01:39:29,380 --> 01:39:32,633 do, and I can want the best for somebody, and it might not work. 1939 01:39:32,633 --> 01:39:34,885 And that's the reality of what I do. 1940 01:39:34,885 --> 01:39:38,305 And if I internalized all of that, I wouldn't be able to do this. 1941 01:39:38,305 --> 01:39:41,266 I couldn't because it's, 1942 01:39:41,308 --> 01:39:44,728 you know, people relapse, people die. 1943 01:39:44,979 --> 01:39:49,984 People do exactly the opposite of what I tell them to do, despite how hard I tried. 1944 01:39:49,984 --> 01:39:52,611 And all I can do is try. 1945 01:39:52,611 --> 01:39:54,238 Let's talk about self validation. 1946 01:39:54,238 --> 01:39:54,947 Yeah. 1947 01:39:54,947 --> 01:39:58,993 You said, if I'm not mistaken, that the most important relationship to validate 1948 01:39:59,034 --> 01:40:00,786 is the one you have with yourself. 1949 01:40:00,786 --> 01:40:01,662 Yeah. 1950 01:40:01,662 --> 01:40:06,125 Are you actually good at this with yourself or is it easier on 1951 01:40:06,125 --> 01:40:07,209 other people? 1952 01:40:07,209 --> 01:40:09,837 is so much easier with other people. 1953 01:40:09,837 --> 01:40:12,840 It's interesting you ask that because when I wrote this book,

1954 01:40:13,257 --> 01:40:16,218 I really value self validation. 1955 01:40:16,218 --> 01:40:20,556 And yet I have found it very hard to teach people just to start 1956 01:40:20,597 --> 01:40:23,809 off validating themselves, because so much of that communication 1957 01:40:23,809 --> 01:40:30,107 that we have with ourselves is, is subconscious and hard to hear, right? 1958 01:40:30,149 --> 01:40:33,277 Whereas when we're talking with others, we're reflecting somewhat 1959 01:40:33,277 --> 01:40:35,571 on what we're saying. We're choosing our words. All right. 1960 01:40:35,571 --> 01:40:37,740 And there's more intention. 1961 01:40:37,740 --> 01:40:41,577 And in that you can be more deliberate in using these strategies. 1962 01:40:41,577 --> 01:40:45,748 And so I learned to validate myself by through the process of validating 1963 01:40:45,748 --> 01:40:49,418 others, developing these strategies, practicing them on others. 1964 01:40:49,418 --> 01:40:55,799 I started to see where I was invalidating my own emotions, my own thoughts. 1965 01:40:55,841 --> 01:40:58,677 Oh, I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't be angry. 1966 01:40:58,677 --> 01:41:01,305 I shouldn't be this. I shouldn't feel this. 1967 01:41:01,305 --> 01:41:04,141 And I could recognize that if that was a client, 1968 01:41:04,141 --> 01:41:08,187 if that was a patient of mine, I would be saying, no, what's valid here? 1969 01:41:08,896 --> 01:41:09,271 Right. 1970 01:41:09,271 --> 01:41:13,567 And so I learned how to validate myself through the process of validating others. 1971 01:41:13,567 --> 01:41:18,655 And so my focus is first and foremost on validating others. 1972 01:41:18,697 --> 01:41:22,743 And the full circle of it is that if you're going to get good at validating 1973 01:41:22,743 --> 01:41:27,206 yourself, the best place to practice first and foremost is with others. 1974 01:41:27,206 --> 01:41:29,333 Because yourself, that's hard. 1975 01:41:29,333 --> 01:41:30,250 It's very hard. 1976 01:41:30,250 --> 01:41:31,418 And how do you do that with yourself? 1977 01:41:31,418 --> 01:41:33,837 Because I feel like a lot of people's thoughts there in their own head. 1978 01:41:33,837 --> 01:41:35,672 Are you saying it out loud to yourself? 1979 01:41:35,672 --> 01:41:38,383 Are you just in your head trying to validate 1980 01:41:38,383 --> 01:41:41,136 what the emotions you are that you're going through in that moment? 1981 01:41:41,136 --> 01:41:44,431 It seems like it's more difficult to validate yourself, 1982 01:41:44,431 --> 01:41:47,643 but like, what are the steps, you know, to self validate? 1983 01:41:47,643 --> 01:41:52,481 yeah, I so I use the same many of the same strategies and I imply them inward. 1984 01:41:52,606 --> 01:41:54,399 Are you saying these things out loud to yourself 1985 01:41:54,399 --> 01:41:55,734 or are you just thinking them in your head. 1986 01:41:55,734 --> 01:41:56,151 Yeah. 1987 01:41:56,151 --> 01:41:59,738 So I got really angry at Comcast the other day. 1988 01:41:59,863 --> 01:42:01,073 Okay. 1989 01:42:01,073 --> 01:42:03,283 actually write about being angry at Comcast in my book. 1990 01:42:03,283 --> 01:42:04,076 You think my whole life. 1991 01:42:05,119 --> 01:42:07,162 But just happen to be setting up 1992 01:42:07,162 --> 01:42:11,625 a new business line with them, and it was just all sorts of shenanigans. 1993 01:42:11,625 --> 01:42:13,335 Just for reference, Comcast, we love you. 1994 01:42:13,335 --> 01:42:14,837 We have no problems with you. 1995 01:42:14,837 --> 01:42:17,840 Sorry. 1996 01:42:18,924 --> 01:42:19,925 We're taking sponsors. 1997 01:42:19,925 --> 01:42:20,759 Okay. No, just. 1998 01:42:20,759 --> 01:42:23,011 Okay. Go ahead. 1999 01:42:23,011 --> 01:42:23,720 bombast. 2000 01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:26,390 So if I was to walk through this I got really angry. 2001 01:42:26,390 --> 01:42:29,226 And I don't like getting angry I don't usually get angry. 2002 01:42:29,226 --> 01:42:33,522 So what I would do and I typically do this at night before I go to bed, 2003 01:42:33,772 --> 01:42:36,775 I'd be lying in bed and I would first think, okay, 2004 01:42:36,900 --> 01:42:39,736 what am I feeling when I think about this situation? 2005 01:42:39,736 --> 01:42:42,447 I don't feel good about it. What am I feeling? 2006 01:42:42,447 --> 01:42:45,868 And the first feeling that comes up, for me, at least right 2007 01:42:45,868 --> 01:42:50,998 now, is annoyance and frustration and guilt. 2008 01:42:51,415 --> 01:42:54,293 Okay. And so I've identified those emotions. 2009 01:42:54,293 --> 01:43:00,090 I label them, I give them emotion adjectives, and then I just repeat, 2010 01:43:00,507 --> 01:43:03,886 all right, in much the same way that I would copy with someone else. 2011 01:43:04,845 --> 01:43:07,097 So I'll try and do this now. 2012 01:43:07,097 --> 01:43:11,143 I'll focus on angry. 2013 01:43:12,686 --> 01:43:14,313 So I say to myself, just over 2014 01:43:14,313 --> 01:43:18,108 there's anger, there's anger. 2015 01:43:18,692 --> 01:43:20,194 I'm just repeating it. 2016 01:43:20,194 --> 01:43:23,655 And the reason I'm just repeating it is because I'm trying to feel 2017 01:43:23,655 --> 01:43:26,658 that emotion as intensely as I can 2018 01:43:27,492 --> 01:43:30,495 without feeding it the narrative. 2019 01:43:31,413 --> 01:43:34,208 I'm trying not to think about the memory of what was said, 2020 01:43:34,208 --> 01:43:37,211 and frankly, the fact that I'm talking to you. 2021 01:43:39,171 --> 01:43:40,047 I'm just focusing 2022 01:43:40,047 --> 01:43:43,050 on where in my body I feel that anger. 2023 01:43:43,133 --> 01:43:46,428 And I try and squeeze that emotion out almost like a sponge. 2024 01:43:47,679 --> 01:43:50,682 And once you've really wrung it out, 2025 01:43:50,849 --> 01:43:56,230 really felt it as intensely as you can without feeding it, it will go down. 2026

01:43:56,355 --> 01:43:59,399 It absolutely will go down so long as you don't feed it. 2027 01:43:59,399 --> 01:44:00,275 And by that I mean like 2028 01:44:00,275 --> 01:44:04,863 replay the situation in your head and then once it starts to go down, 2029 01:44:06,573 --> 01:44:09,243 I look for why was I angry? 2030 01:44:09,243 --> 01:44:12,246 What's the validity in my emotion? 2031 01:44:12,579 --> 01:44:14,748 Okay, I can think about 2032 01:44:14,748 --> 01:44:17,751 they said this, this happened. 2033 01:44:18,293 --> 01:44:21,880 Oh my gosh, that part's really annoying. 2034 01:44:23,173 --> 01:44:23,632 Okay. 2035 01:44:23,632 --> 01:44:27,678 And I'm just kind of going through and I'm looking at the facts that substantiate 2036 01:44:27,678 --> 01:44:28,762 my emotion. 2037 01:44:28,762 --> 01:44:30,514 That's it. I'm just trying to understand. 2038 01:44:30,514 --> 01:44:31,473 And if I start getting caught 2039 01:44:31,473 --> 01:44:34,685 in the story again, which often happens if I start to get, 2040 01:44:34,935 --> 01:44:36,895 I just go back to the repeating 2041 01:44:36,895 --> 01:44:40,857 the emotion to myself and just feeling it, just letting myself feel it. 2042 01:44:40,857 --> 01:44:45,821 That is how we process emotions is to let them be all right. 2043 01:44:46,321 --> 01:44:51,868 And I'm kind of I kind of toggle between those two spaces of kind of 2044 01:44:51,910 --> 01:44:55,706 just wringing out the emotion and then validating it, 2045 01:44:56,123 --> 01:44:57,916 ringing it out and validating it. 2046 01:44:57,916 --> 01:45:01,712 And once it's kind of come down a bit between, 2047 01:45:01,753 --> 01:45:08,051 you know, going back and forth there, I'll usually do some type of self-care. 2048 01:45:08,635 --> 01:45:11,847 I would drink a tea 2049 01:45:11,972 --> 01:45:15,267 if I was awake, since I do this at night often. 2050 01:45:15,559 --> 01:45:19,313 I will put a hand on my chest or on my stomach. 2051 01:45:19,354 --> 01:45:20,897 I'll breathe into my stomach. 2052 01:45:23,066 --> 01:45:26,069 And say something like it's okay. 2053 01:45:28,488 --> 01:45:31,491 Make sense that you're angry. 2054 01:45:33,785 --> 01:45:36,788 You're not a bad person for being angry. 2055 01:45:38,165 --> 01:45:40,167 Even psychologists get angry. 2056 01:45:40,167 --> 01:45:43,170 Now you're really hearing the self-talk, 2057 01:45:43,879 --> 01:45:46,423 and I basically try and comfort myself in much 2058 01:45:46,423 --> 01:45:49,426 the same way that I would want someone to comfort me, or that 2059 01:45:49,426 --> 01:45:53,388 I would try and comfort somebody, then I reach the most critical part, 2060 01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:56,433 which is now what am I going to do with this? 2061 01:45:56,808 --> 01:45:59,561 I've alluded to this several times, and I think this is 2062 01:45:59,561 --> 01:46:03,148 just so important with those negative emotions. 2063 01:46:03,148 --> 01:46:04,524 It's energy. 2064 01:46:04,524 --> 01:46:04,858 All right. 2065 01:46:04,858 --> 01:46:07,569 Energy is not created nor destroyed. 2066 01:46:07,569 --> 01:46:10,989 But if you don't do anything with it, it's just going to eat at you. 2067 01:46:11,156 --> 01:46:14,201 So I have to decide what am I going to do with this? 2068 01:46:14,451 --> 01:46:14,868 All right. 2069 01:46:14,868 --> 01:46:19,122 So when it was when it was sadness about having to do 2070 01:46:19,164 --> 01:46:22,834 chemotherapy, we got some cats to foster. 2071 01:46:23,293 --> 01:46:28,048 I used that energy and directed it there with this anger. 2072 01:46:28,048 --> 01:46:33,804 I actually think it's important to follow back up with Comcast 2073 01:46:33,804 --> 01:46:38,058 and make sure that they correct the situation. 2074 01:46:38,642 --> 01:46:40,227 So I'm not going to avoid this. 2075 01:46:40,227 --> 01:46:43,772 I'm not going to, you know, just pay whatever it is they want me to pay. 2076 01:46:43,814 --> 01:46:45,649 I'm going to follow up with them again. 2077 01:46:45,649 --> 01:46:47,401 That's the action I will take. 2078 01:46:47,401 --> 01:46:49,361 And so that's the full cycle. 2079 01:46:49,361 --> 01:46:54,783 I kind of just go through identifying the emotion, wringing it out, validating, 2080 01:46:54,825 --> 01:46:59,621 see what, seeing why it was valid, why it was logical, what makes sense. 2081 01:46:59,621 --> 01:47:02,290 Then I self soothe and take action. 2082 01:47:02,290 --> 01:47:05,085 I love that okay, last one. 2083 01:47:05,085 --> 01:47:07,838 If validation really is this powerful, Yeah. 2084 01:47:07,838 --> 01:47:11,508 which I believe it is now after talking to you and it's this free 2085 01:47:11,675 --> 01:47:14,719 and it's this easy to learn, is there a version 2086 01:47:14,719 --> 01:47:18,223 of this world where we start using it on purpose? 2087 01:47:18,223 --> 01:47:23,645 And most of the conflict that we've all gotten used to just quietly fades away? 2088 01:47:23,770 --> 01:47:27,107 There's a world where it gets significantly better. 2089 01:47:27,357 --> 01:47:28,984 Like I said, this is a practice. 2090 01:47:28,984 --> 01:47:30,277 I don't expect perfection. 2091 01:47:30,277 --> 01:47:33,238 I don't think it's possible because I have really practiced 2092 01:47:33,238 --> 01:47:35,157 this stuff, and my kid can attest to the fact 2093 01:47:35,157 --> 01:47:38,160 that I still invalidate her from time to time. 2094 01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:42,289 But my God, how much better the world would be 2095 01:47:42,330 --> 01:47:46,751 if we spent as much time working on opinion writing and debate. 2096 01:47:46,918 --> 01:47:50,046 If we spend as much time working on 2097 01:47:50,046 --> 01:47:53,049 seeing the kernel of truth in another person's perspective, 2098 01:47:53,175 --> 01:47:56,178 being able to validate even when we don't agree. 2099 01:47:56,636 --> 01:47:59,097 If we taught kids how to do that 2100 01:47:59,097 --> 01:48:02,809 because, my God, can they learn this stuff much better than my adult clients? 2101 01:48:02,809 --> 01:48:04,895 Can they pick it up? 2102 01:48:04,895 --> 01:48:07,939 That's what we should be teaching in grade school, right? 2103 01:48:08,023 --> 01:48:12,486 There's so much value in that and we do not value it as a society. 2104 01:48:12,611 --> 01:48:14,654 We don't even have the language to talk about it. 2105 01:48:14,654 --> 01:48:16,990 We can't even conceptualize it. 2106 01:48:16,990 --> 01:48:22,787 And so yeah, I see a world that is infinitely better in so many ways, 2107 01:48:22,954 --> 01:48:24,789 but ultimately in the ways that matter most, 2108 01:48:24,789 --> 01:48:27,626 which is the connections we have with each other. 2109 01:48:27,626 --> 01:48:28,210 Totally agree. 2110 01:48:28,210 --> 01:48:30,837 Doctor Caroline Flack, thank you so much for coming on the show. 2111 01:48:30,837 --> 01:48:33,548 was such a blast. I really appreciate it. Thank you.