บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Designing for Legacy: Indigenous Wisdom for a Better Future with Paul Callaghan

00:04:26.321 I have had a very interesting career and for many years, until I was 35, I walked the path of Western traditional success stories. 51 00:04:26.361 --> 00:04:29.024 So I went to high school, did the HSC. 52 00:04:29.064 --> 00:04:36.091 I was told by my school's advisor that I wasn't smart enough to go to uni, even though I finished in the top 10% of the state. 53 00:04:36.852 --> 00:04:41.395 And so I went to TAFE and I did a diploma in surveying, then I did a diploma in drafting. 54 00:04:41.415 --> 00:04:47.459 And in my 30s, I did a Bachelor of Commerce and I majored in accounting and I was lecturing in economics, amongst other things. 55 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:56.645 And so I was the big success story that Western governments say Aboriginal people should be because I believed in the success story that was painted to me. 56 00:04:57.646 --> 00:05:03.650 But on the day of my 35th birthday, I'll never forget it, I sat on a building in a university I was working at, 57 00:05:04.428 --> 00:05:10.353 and I sat down and I cried and they wanted tears of joy, they were tears of fear and tears of desperation. 58 00:05:10.433 --> 00:05:17.178 And I somehow got home, curled up in a bed for three months and had to figure my way through a nervous breakdown. 59 00:05:18.119 --> 00:05:19.420 And as I reached out for help, 60 00:05:20.975 --> 00:05:23.036 I found that the system really didn't understand me. 61 00:05:24.137 --> 00:05:41.325 And I found that the system just told me I was incurable, I would never be able to work again, I'd never be able to connect with others again because I was incredibly agoraphobic and I was full of anxiety, I couldn't talk to anybody, I had panic attacks, all those things. 62 00:05:42.726 --> 00:05:50.030 But a kind of miracle happened through that process where elders kind of found me and took me bush and gave me all this cultural knowledge. 63 00:05:50.861 --> 00:05:52.763 some of which I'm going to share with you today. 64 00:05:54.084 --> 00:05:56.105 And I discovered it filled this void. 65 00:05:56.866 --> 00:06:01.850 And what I discovered was that this Western vision of success wasn't me at all. 66 00:06:02.210 --> 00:06:03.111 It wasn't me at all. 67 00:06:03.171 --> 00:06:04.232 It wasn't my story. 68 00:06:04.712 --> 00:06:07.354 And so tapping into story, I wasn't walking my footsteps. 69 00:06:07.434 --> 00:06:08.615 I wasn't living my story. 70 00:06:09.095 --> 00:06:11.057 And that's a big challenge for everybody to say here. 71 00:06:11.557 --> 00:06:13.779 Here we are being really busy, but aren't we living our story? 72 00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:19.143 And so once I recovered, I joined TAFE out of desperation, but I stayed there for 17 years. 73 00:06:20.355 --> 00:06:23.257 And I could never figure it out, but I kept on getting promotions. 74 00:06:23.317 --> 00:06:26.520 And I started as a manager in an Aboriginal unit. 75 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:28.361 I ended up being the head of Excess and Equity. 76 00:06:28.381 --> 00:06:29.462 Then I was the Dean of Business. 77 00:06:29.502 --> 00:06:37.568 Then I was the Vice-Chancellor of an entire institute where I had an $80 million budget and 23,000 students, 1,200 staff, 10 campuses. 78 00:06:38.389 --> 00:06:42.192 And it was an amazing environment of innovation, creativity, knowledge sharing. 79 00:06:42.914 --> 00:06:50.005 And silly me, I jumped ship and I ended up in social services as a director general, the most senior Aboriginal public servant in New South Wales. 80 00:06:50.606 --> 00:06:52.168 And I thought I would change the world. 81 00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:57.437 But the construct of government held me too tightly and I couldn't help anybody. 82 00:06:58.203 --> 00:07:06.670 And so out of frustration after a year of trying to bang my head against brick walls and knock them down unsuccessfully, I had to leave. 83 00:07:06.810 --> 00:07:09.593 My career was folded and over and I started my own business. 84 00:07:10.353 --> 00:07:12.315 And you might go, wow, that's a big step. 85 00:07:13.116 --> 00:07:13.896 Why did you do that? 86 00:07:13.956 --> 00:07:15.338 Well, I had to do what was right. 87 00:07:16.018 --> 00:07:18.821 And over the last 12 years, my business has been successful. 88 00:07:19.402 --> 00:07:22.765 Five years ago, I started and finished a PhD in three and a half years. 89 00:07:23.326 --> 00:07:24.367 I've got a bestselling book. 90 00:07:24.387 --> 00:07:25.889 I've got another book that's out today. 91 00:07:25.949 --> 00:07:30.113 I've got a business leadership book coming out on the 26th of February next year. 92 00:07:30.694 --> 00:07:34.878 I've got two professors roles at the University of Melbourne and at RMIT. 93 00:07:35.359 --> 00:07:36.920 So the big comment about my story 94 00:07:37.861 --> 00:07:39.983 is don't waste a good crisis. 95 00:07:40.123 --> 00:07:46.268 If you think you're in a crisis, you can kind of jump up and down and feel really upset, and why wouldn't you? 96 00:07:46.789 --> 00:07:51.673 But then take a deep breath and go, okay, I don't know where this has taken me, but who knows? 97 00:07:52.214 --> 00:07:59.300 There's this yellow brick road, and I might just follow it and see where it lands, and that certainly is how I approach every aspect of my life. 98 00:08:01.346 --> 00:08:16.002 And I think you've also spoken to this fundamental thing that at least the leaders I work with, whether it's in organizational contexts or government contexts, that people can feel that there's greater leadership potential within us, but maybe the way that we've built systems around people. 99 00:08:16.506 --> 00:08:18.127 is stopping them being able to embrace that. 100 00:08:18.187 --> 00:08:28.450 And I know in the wonderful discussion that we were able to have prior to this interview, we were discussing how the leadership we need doesn't need to be created, it needs to be remembered because it's actually something far deeper. 101

00:08:28.470 --> 00:08:32.291 We're not creating shiny new tools, but we're trying to come back to the basis. 102 00:08:32.351 --> 00:08:44.795 And also one of the reasons that Australia is so well positioned to be a leader in this space, we've got a long way to go, but being home to the oldest continuing culture in the world that is a champion of the sort of intergenerational thinking 103 00:08:45.298 --> 00:08:49.640 looking seven generations into the future, all of these elements, like there's so much richness here. 104 00:08:49.760 --> 00:09:04.547 And so I wonder from this perspective, as someone who has traversed the system as it stands, has experienced some of the pitfalls of it, what patterns are you seeing in leadership, whether that's in Australia or globally, that is leaving us feeling like leadership is failing us so consistently? 105 00:09:07.988 --> 00:09:11.730 There's a lot there and a couple of things I'll park for later in our discussion. 106 00:09:13.011 --> 00:09:19.034 The discussion about like shiny new things really appeals to me in terms of how we get caught up by that. 107 00:09:19.094 --> 00:09:21.535 So I'll park that comment to a little bit later. 108 00:09:21.555 --> 00:09:27.918 But in terms of patents and leadership right now, I'm going to be controversial and I don't mean to offend anybody. 109 00:09:27.938 --> 00:09:29.259 So apologies if I do. 110 00:09:29.319 --> 00:09:31.180 But leadership globally is failing us. 111 00:09:32.437 --> 00:09:33.158 Total failure. 112 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:39.350 So as leaders, and I was a leader once, and I had 80 KPIs, and I used to always meet them because guess what? 113 00:09:39.390 --> 00:09:41.213 If I didn't, my job was gone. 114 00:09:42.035 --> 00:09:43.678 So you always meet your KPIs. 115 00:09:44.688 --> 00:09:46.769 But was I doing great things? 116 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:48.690 Well, that wasn't what I was being measured by. 117 00:09:49.110 --> 00:09:51.611 So we have leaders achieving KPIs. 118 00:09:51.631 --> 00:09:55.653 We have leaders that are putting in great annual reports and the shareholders are applauding. 119 00:09:56.273 --> 00:09:57.233 The boards are applauding. 120 00:09:57.754 --> 00:10:00.535 And yet across the world, and I'm going to read this off a little list I've made. 121 00:10:01.015 --> 00:10:04.777 Right now we've got war between Iran and Israel. 122 00:10:04.797 --> 00:10:06.197 We've got problems in the Gaza Strip. 123 00:10:06.217 --> 00:10:07.077 We've got the Ukraine. 124 00:10:07.098 --> 00:10:08.178 There's wars everywhere else. 125 00:10:08.838 --> 00:10:10.619 We have climate change and global warming. 126 00:10:11.095 --> 00:10:18.098 We have economic instability where we all put away our life savings and we all freak out when it goes down because the share market is tapped globally. 127 00:10:18.878 --> 00:10:24.380 We have cost of living crisis everywhere where people say I can't afford food, let alone house. 128 00:10:24.900

--> 00:10:28.782 We have cybercrime where we're being warned about be careful, you might lose everything. 129 00:10:29.262 --> 00:10:34.364 And we have IT being used as a weapon of propaganda to tell mistruths. 130 00:10:34.904 --> 00:10:37.485 We have problems with access to energy and food throughout the world. 131 00:10:37.545 --> 00:10:41.867 We have resettlement of populations and we have degradation of natural resources. 132 00:10:42.387 --> 00:10:46.368 So for those that say leadership isn't failing, well, it is. 133 00:10:47.369 --> 00:10:48.069 Now, who's at fault? 134 00:10:48.149 --> 00:10:48.689 I don't know. 135 00:10:49.690 --> 00:10:52.651 My opinion is we can't depend on the leaders of our world. 136 00:10:53.693 --> 00:10:57.215 to do the right thing by us because it's clear they're not going to their failing. 137 00:10:57.255 --> 00:10:57.996 So how do we do it? 138 00:10:58.576 --> 00:11:04.620 We need to reshape how we think as leaders in terms of on the ground, leaders like you and me that are standing here, sitting here. 139 00:11:05.561 --> 00:11:17.849 What is it we can do to start trickling out into communities and creating this better future for our future generations and then manage upward in terms of our expectations of our political leaders who we vote for? 140 00:11:18.469 --> 00:11:21.311 Because added to all of that, I do a lot of work in workplaces. 141 00:11:22.695 --> 00:11:26.596 The research shows that anxiety has now become a norm where people are accepting that. 142 00:11:26.636 --> 00:11:32.617 They're going, I'm so anxious, I can't sleep, I can't remember, I can't do anything, but that's just the way it is. 143 00:11:32.657 --> 00:11:33.517 Well, not good enough. 144 00:11:34.417 --> 00:11:37.177 If we accept that, it will just continue to grow. 145 00:11:37.458 --> 00:11:40.958 And that is not good for us, and it's not good for those coming through our younger people. 146 00:11:41.838 --> 00:11:44.919 And also when I look at Facebook, we have become an outrage society. 147 00:11:44.959 --> 00:11:48.639 You look at Facebook and social media, it's everyone outraged. 148 00:11:48.739 --> 00:11:49.620 Now, I get it. 149 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:51.500 We can all be outraged. 150 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:52.821 But does that help us? 151 00:11:52.901 --> 00:11:53.621 Does that lift us? 152 00:11:53.721 --> 00:11:53.941 No. 153 00:11:54.602 --> 00:12:00.545 And we've got people focusing on what's in this for me rather than what's in this for us. 154 00:12:00.805 --> 00:12:02.887 And so there's this failure of the us mentality. 155 00:12:03.607 --> 00:12:09.971 So thinking about that, I played with the word census because census is when we capture a population, yeah. 156 00:12:10.851 --> 00:12:13.173 And so where is the sense in us? 157 00:12:13.293 --> 00:12:13.973 There's no us. 158 00:12:14.714 --> 00:12:16.375 As leaders, we're not thinking about us. 159 00:12:16.735 --> 00:12:19.697 And so as leaders, think about census and consensus. 160 00:12:20.863 --> 00:12:30.310 Think about what we have a commitment to in terms of what we pay, but on the broader perspective, what does us mean in terms of the global world good? 161 00:12:30.490 --> 00:12:41.138 And then we will have a shift in these patterns because all the patterns are a logarithm at very short term, very finite KPIs that don't take into account the greater good. 162 00:12:43.921 --> 00:12:47.285 And you mentioned there the work that you've done in organizations. 163 00:12:47.325 --> 00:12:52.991 I'm sure for so many people listening right now, they're sitting as an organizational leader, be it of a team, be it more broadly. 164 00:12:53.071 --> 00:12:56.234 And they're sitting here going, wow, I really resonate with a lot of the things you're saying. 165 00:12:56.755 --> 00:12:57.796 They feel a bit out of reach. 166 00:12:57.816 --> 00:12:58.697 They feel complex. 167 00:12:58.737 --> 00:13:00.419 They feel conceptual. 168 00:13:00.479 --> 00:13:06.105 Like for you, if you could take on any organization right now and look to take a few first steps, 169 00:13:06.658 --> 00:13:14.960 What are some of the things that you think organisations should tackle first and foremost to start reckoning with this reimagined or remembered approach to leadership? 170 00:13:15.540 --> 00:13:19.201 So what we're talking about is change management and change freaks everybody out. 171 00:13:19.241 --> 00:13:21.362 No one likes change, especially enforced change. 172 00:13:22.022 --> 00:13:28.304 It's because our brain has a negative bias and it sees change as risky and it doesn't like it because it says warning danger. 173 00:13:28.884 --> 00:13:29.564 I don't like this. 174 00:13:30.108 --> 00:13:34.231 So organisations need to change, but the problem with organisations is they overthink things. 175 00:13:34.291 --> 00:13:40.176 When you understand Aboriginal culture, our ways of knowing, being and doing are incredibly profound, but they're incredibly simple. 176 00:13:41.317 --> 00:13:45.460 It's the implementation that can be complex, but the actual concept of getting it is not hard. 177 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.061 So this one is quite simple. 178 00:13:48.162 --> 00:13:51.364 Organisations need to focus on transgenerational greater good. 179 00:13:52.025 --> 00:13:52.385 That's it. 180 00:13:53.086 --> 00:13:55.668 Every organisation will have their mission, blah, blah, blah. 181 00:13:56.750 --> 00:14:03.075 But underpinning that is, this is our mission statement, this is what we're going to do, and there's nothing wrong with profitability and sustainability. 182 00:14:03.895 --> 00:14:08.639 But how does it support transgenerational greater good? 183 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:13.362 We need every organisation to do that, including government, non-government sectors and commercial sectors. 184 00:14:14.383 --> 00:14:16.905 When we do that, we'll start creating a greater world. 185 00:14:17.999 -->

00:14:21.642 How we do that, lots of things, of course, but that's the big one. 186 00:14:22.162 --> 00:14:22.823 How do we do that? 187 00:14:22.863 --> 00:14:23.423 That's the question. 188 00:14:23.803 --> 00:14:30.008 In academia, they'll say, what is the big question that this research is to fix? 189 00:14:30.168 --> 00:14:31.068 And there is the question. 190 00:14:31.649 --> 00:14:33.650 How do we create transgenerational greater good? 191 00:14:34.911 --> 00:14:47.160 And forgive me for being cheeky and maybe bold, not to put you on the spot to solve all of our problems, but that seems like a real challenge when people are still within all the confines of, as you mentioned, the 80 KPIs, the culture, 192 00:14:47.702 --> 00:14:48.802 Where would you look to start? 193 00:14:48.862 --> 00:14:49.743 Is it with the measures? 194 00:14:49.803 --> 00:14:50.783 Is it with the culture? 195 00:14:50.903 --> 00:14:52.403 Is it supporting the individual? 196 00:14:52.504 --> 00:14:59.066 Is it their own personal journey of developing their leadership or their sort of connection into this idea? 197 00:14:59.146 --> 00:15:00.186 What are your thoughts there? 198 00:15:00.206 --> 00:15:06.328 Well, I'll be cheeky back because that's how the Western way problem solves. 199 00:15:06.388 --> 00:15:09.129 I go, let's get it and let's knock it out of the park and let's fix it. 200 00:15:10.149 --> 00:15:14.230 If you talk to mob, we'll say, hang on, hang on, do we really know what we're talking about here? 201 00:15:15.431 --> 00:15:16.331 Let's light a fire. 202 00:15:17.126 --> 00:15:18.607 Let's sit around for a couple of days. 203 00:15:19.548 --> 00:15:23.891 Let's get a bit of food and just have a little bit of a think about what it is we're talking about. 204 00:15:24.912 --> 00:15:28.615 And so you actually talk about what is transgenerational change? 205 00:15:28.635 --> 00:15:29.516 What does that look like? 206 00:15:29.656 --> 00:15:30.636 What does success look like? 207 00:15:31.197 --> 00:15:33.959 And then you'll bring in stakeholders and say, what do you think? 208 00:15:35.169 --> 00:15:39.111 And then you might come up with some really wild ideas about what that looks like. 209 00:15:39.151 --> 00:15:47.877 So in an organisation, you're not going to throw out your mission statement or your strategy and all those goals because they give you your sustainability and you need organisations to be sustainable. 210 00:15:48.537 --> 00:15:58.443 But within that, you might come up with a new strategy that looks at how do I become a good corporate social citizen because young people expect that and they won't purchase products and services in the future. 211 00:15:59.143 --> 00:16:02.244 from corporations that are just focused on profitability. 212 00:16:02.684 --> 00:16:06.204 They will demand from organisations, show me how you look after the greater good. 213 00:16:06.585 --> 00:16:18.307 So maybe come up with a separate strategy and take the pressure off fixing it now, but saying we're going to contemplate and slowly and incrementally start building this bridge of greater good connection where we will explore. 214 00:16:18.327 --> 00:16:20.767 It might be connecting with local communities to start with. 215 00:16:21.227 --> 00:16:23.868 How can we have an impact in local communities for the greater good? 216 00:16:25.014 --> 00:16:27.775 And then it might be more socially connected. 217 00:16:27.815 --> 00:16:32.335 How can we start supporting environmental productivity and health? 218 00:16:33.055 --> 00:16:36.356 And so you can start just picking at that, like this week's NAIDOC week. 219 00:16:37.096 --> 00:16:41.377 So you might say, yeah, we should be involved with Aboriginal communities just to start building a relationship. 220 00:16:41.757 --> 00:16:48.018 So relationships, all those kinds of things, but take the pressure off coming up with the answer because that's what organisations do. 221 00:16:48.058 --> 00:16:52.199 They rush to the end point, and in doing so miss what it is they need to do. 222 00:16:53.837 --> 00:16:58.301 I have to say it brings me to a place of humility as someone often running leadership programs. 223 00:16:58.321 --> 00:17:03.205 And I'm always telling people don't rush to the action because you'll, you know, just continue to do what you've always done. 224 00:17:03.225 --> 00:17:12.933 And I think you've articulated that so perfectly, both from a sort of ways of working in that Western way versus if we lean more into the indigenous ways of doing, but also just what we know to be effective. 225 00:17:12.953 --> 00:17:20.700 If you just keep hammering on a nail in the same way that you know how, and you don't go inward and, and consider how you can reconceptualize the bigger picture. 226 00:17:21.357 --> 00:17:24.259 you just find yourself recreating the same thing over and over again. 227 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:29.282 And with the wonderfully frightening long list of challenges we're currently facing that you shared. 228 00:17:29.302 --> 00:17:35.606 I mean, the great thing you've got to fight around the fire is, is with people like my, or just with organisational leaders. 229 00:17:36.346 --> 00:17:42.250 What does a transgenerational organisation committed to the greater good, what does that actually look like? 230 00:17:43.251 --> 00:17:48.594 And just play with it, draw pictures, get crayons, draw in the sand, throw stones at each other, doesn't matter. 231 00:17:49.133 --> 00:17:53.355 Be creative and come up with what you think and you'll be shocked with where it lands. 232 00:17:53.395 --> 00:17:55.256 Have someone there maybe to help guide it all. 233 00:17:56.117 --> 00:17:59.358 But you have to have that external lens of thinking. 234 00:17:59.379 --> 00:18:05.082 You're right, there needs to be someone as a catalyst to say, hang on, hang on, you're going back to the old ways, let's get out of that. 235 00:18:05.882 --> 00:18:06.002 Mm.

236 00:18:07.163 --> 00:18:13.226 Because us with habit, we're drawn to it like gravity or like a magnet, so that's- Well, it's comfortable because it's less risky. 237 00:18:14.347 --> 00:18:16.788 We always go to where we're comfortable, always. 238 00:18:17.950 --> 00:18:21.411 There's an old saying, people don't change until they're sick and tired of being sick and tired. 239 00:18:21.911 --> 00:18:23.612 Organisations are kind of like it too. 240 00:18:23.652 --> 00:18:32.354 It's not until the gallows are there and they're on the final breaths of the end of the product life cycle or business life cycle and they're about to die, they go, oh my God, we've got to revamp. 241 00:18:33.335 --> 00:18:40.577 Well, no, make it part of your practice about what is the context and the environment in which we're working in, what do we need to do to keep ahead? 242 00:18:40.877 --> 00:18:42.357 And they're the organisations that win. 243 00:18:44.258 --> 00:18:44.858 Absolutely. 244 00:18:45.597 --> 00:18:52.641 What I'm also hearing from what you're sharing is the need for this to be a real felt experience and a felt journey rather than something that you sort of intellectually process. 245 00:18:52.681 --> 00:18:55.123 OK, we need to change the way we're leading. 246 00:18:55.163 --> 00:19:00.206 And so clearly your approach is really defined by personal experience, cultural philosophy. 247 00:19:00.246 --> 00:19:03.508 And I'd love to see if we can bring that to life even further for the people listening. 248 00:19:03.548 --> 00:19:09.131 So could you share a personal story maybe that has helped to shape your sort of leadership philosophy in life? 249 00:19:10.035 --> 00:19:10.836 Yeah, absolutely. 250 00:19:10.876 --> 00:19:15.842 So before my breakdown, I was in a leadership role at a university and I was doing all the right stuff. 251 00:19:16.263 --> 00:19:17.184 I'd done all the training. 252 00:19:17.244 --> 00:19:19.327 I knew what a good leader does and I was doing it all. 253 00:19:21.870 --> 00:19:25.675 But when I had my breakdown, I didn't find... 254 00:19:26.595 --> 00:19:34.162 any of the mental health services really gave me many insights, but there was one counsellor who gave me a brilliant piece of narrative for everyone to remember. 255 00:19:34.743 --> 00:19:41.930 He said, Paul, I can't help you much with how you're feeling with this massive depression, but I can say this is a message to you, from you, about you. 256 00:19:42.674 --> 00:19:44.475 a message to you from you about you. 257 00:19:44.515 --> 00:19:48.676 And he said, once you unpack that message and know it, then you will be able to heal. 258 00:19:48.876 --> 00:19:54.158 And so years later, as I pondered, I finally found the message and it was no surprise. 259 00:19:54.198 --> 00:19:55.599 I was just not wanting to look at it. 260 00:19:56.159 --> 00:19:57.240 I really did hate myself. 261 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:01.241 I grew up with all sorts of baggage, like a lot

of us do, poor self-esteem, self-hate. 262 00:20:01.881 --> 00:20:03.002 And so as a leader, 263 00:20:03.942 --> 00:20:08.464 I was leaning because I felt so bad about myself, I needed other people's validation. 264 00:20:08.504 --> 00:20:12.685 So you could argue it was ego, but I didn't really want people to put me on a pedestal. 265 00:20:13.325 --> 00:20:16.767 I just wanted people to say, you're valid, you're valid. 266 00:20:17.367 --> 00:20:22.889 And so I led because I needed validation, which was the totally wrong reason to lead. 267 00:20:24.109 --> 00:20:28.151 After I went bush and was given all my cultural learning, 268 00:20:29.472 --> 00:20:30.773 that I'm sharing with you today. 269 00:20:30.793 --> 00:20:38.981 I changed all that and I realised I just need to go inside and a leader first and foremost must need to know who they are and who am I, what are my values. 270 00:20:39.341 --> 00:20:46.568 Most of us don't do that because it's a bit scary, because we live our life fulfilling other people's expectations because we don't want to disappoint. 271 00:20:46.948 --> 00:20:49.210 And so we end up false kind of leaders, false prophets. 272 00:20:50.151 --> 00:20:54.195 So I went in and I went, I need to learn to like myself and then hopefully love myself. 273 00:20:55.031 --> 00:20:59.093 And once I did that, I really didn't give a shit what other people thought about me. 274 00:21:00.054 --> 00:21:05.277 I respected other people, but I no longer, I threw off the chains of other people's opinions. 275 00:21:05.337 --> 00:21:08.559 And I thought, I'm going to lead trusting what I think is right. 276 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:11.761 But in doing that, of course, I'll consult and I'll talk to lots of people. 277 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:13.871 But I'll do what I thought. 278 00:21:13.911 --> 00:21:17.193 And that's how I ended up looking back, getting all these promotions in TAFE. 279 00:21:17.233 --> 00:21:20.055 I became, because I had no fear, I became fearless. 280 00:21:20.835 --> 00:21:22.036 So I became innovative. 281 00:21:22.056 --> 00:21:30.802 I mean, I had, I think when I was the Dean of Business, I had 800 staff, went up to Curry campus that had beautiful golf grounds and all these other, and we had a staff Olympics. 282 00:21:31.794 --> 00:21:44.041 in 2000 and I opened up wearing a toga and a little kerosene, little lamp and we lit the cauldron and we had discus throwing that was with floppy disks and we did all sorts of fun stuff. 283 00:21:44.681 --> 00:21:56.768 And so as a leader, I wanted to have fun because leadership isn't about Lord of the Rings where poor old Frodo had to go to Mordor and throw that dreaded ring in when he could have got that eagle to do it in like two hours. 284 00:21:57.608 --> 00:21:59.629 It should be something enjoyable that we enjoy. 285 00:21:59.649 --> 00:22:04.550 But the research shows most leaders really feel really stressed and don't enjoy their job. 286 00:22:05.070 --> 00:22:08.771

And the majority of staff that leave a job leave because of their leaders. 287 00:22:09.491 --> 00:22:10.872 So again, it's all really wrong. 288 00:22:11.392 --> 00:22:13.412 So I started to leave for the right reasons. 289 00:22:13.512 --> 00:22:15.113 And how does that look? 290 00:22:15.133 --> 00:22:20.454 Well, I'll tell you a story, a story, a real story, not about me, but about a friend who was an elder of mine. 291 00:22:20.934 --> 00:22:22.395 He was now an older man. 292 00:22:23.235 --> 00:22:26.076 But when he was 20, when he was 20, he took 293 00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:29.360 an old man, his uncle, to the city. 294 00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:33.641 And the uncle, they were watching television for the first time, the uncle. 295 00:22:34.701 --> 00:22:41.243 And there was a politician and an Aboriginal man and the uncle got really angry and he started to yell at the screen and he was never like that. 296 00:22:41.343 --> 00:22:43.804 And so the young man was really concerned. 297 00:22:43.824 --> 00:22:46.344 He said, uncle, uncle, uncle, why are you so angry? 298 00:22:46.364 --> 00:22:48.365 Why are you so angry at that television? 299 00:22:48.945 --> 00:22:53.386 And he said, that politician there, boy, he's not telling the truth. 300 00:22:53.406 --> 00:22:54.067 He's not grabbing. 301 00:22:54.487 --> 00:22:55.167 He's a ghost. 302 00:22:55.670 --> 00:22:57.030 He's not doing anything real. 303 00:22:57.071 --> 00:22:58.371 He's just there imaginary. 304 00:22:59.011 --> 00:23:03.913 He said, he looked at this young man and said, don't be a ghost. 305 00:23:04.433 --> 00:23:08.475 When you grow up and you're a leader, don't be a ghost, you leave tracks in the sand for others to follow. 306 00:23:09.035 --> 00:23:10.535 And that's the thing about leadership. 307 00:23:10.975 --> 00:23:12.196 What tracks are you leaving? 308 00:23:12.236 --> 00:23:15.497 Because a lot of our leaders, yeah, you'll have your annual reports. 309 00:23:15.517 --> 00:23:16.217 They're not tracks. 310 00:23:16.417 --> 00:23:17.758 They're not tracks in the sand at all. 311 00:23:17.818 --> 00:23:18.618 They're bits of paper. 312 00:23:19.058 --> 00:23:21.459 You can say all the lovely things you like to an audience. 313 00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:22.700 They're not real either. 314 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:23.800 So for Aboriginal people, 315 00:23:24.793 --> 00:23:33.941 We won't ever show it, but we really watch and we judge all these leaders and very few pass muster because we will say ghosts, they're not really doing anything real. 316 00:23:34.642 --> 00:23:35.883 You were talking about it, Taylor. 317 00:23:36.143 --> 00:23:39.065 Recycle, recycle, same old, same old, nothing changes. 318 00:23:40.206 --> 00:23:48.413 And so if you only do one track in the sand, but it's a good one, that's better than a hundred fluffy strategies that haven't achieved anything. 319 00:23:48.533 --> 00:23:49.975 And so that's the real life story. 320 00:23:50.695 --> 00:23:52.317 Do things that make a difference. 321 00:23:53.481 --> 00:24:02.264 Wow, that ghost analogy is powerful because I know there's so many leaders who, even if they have an inkling of a desire to step into something more bold, they hold themselves back. 322 00:24:02.304 --> 00:24:06.405 They're worried they'll be expelled from the system if they challenge it or talk against it. 323 00:24:06.425 --> 00:24:11.767 But this notion of are you even really leading if you're not making tracks and if you're not making this progress? 324 00:24:12.300 --> 00:24:16.564 I'm also glad that I'm just old enough to have experienced the dial-up tone, the floppy disks and whatnot. 325 00:24:16.604 --> 00:24:20.407 So floppy disk javelin and discus and whatnot is fantastic. 326 00:24:21.648 --> 00:24:23.670 We also use mouses as hemathrows. 327 00:24:24.511 --> 00:24:27.353 So you use the mouse and hurl it and see how far you've got hurled. 328 00:24:27.393 --> 00:24:30.035 We must find photos of the sleigh because this sounds fantastic. 329 00:24:30.116 --> 00:24:38.263 But the thing that I'd love to dig a bit more into, because I've had countless conversations with leaders about this, is I found myself in a position of influence. 330 00:24:38.283 --> 00:24:39.544 I found myself in a place 331 00:24:40.344 --> 00:24:42.266 where I can start to shift things. 332 00:24:42.326 --> 00:24:48.230 But I'm worried that if I start speaking up that I will be expelled from the system, that my influence will be taken from me. 333 00:24:48.290 --> 00:25:01.621 It's something that we spoke with Jo about in the last For Our Future show as well, because she was championing exactly the same thing you are, which is when you step into leadership, that's exactly when you need to be fighting louder, harder, really pushing for the things you want to see change. 334 00:25:01.761 --> 00:25:07.986 I guess, what would your advice be to leaders who are saying, how do I find the balance of being an advocate and challenging, 335 00:25:09.431 --> 00:25:12.073 retaining this leadership position so I can do that? 336 00:25:12.093 --> 00:25:17.018 Or do we need to let go of that hope entirely and say, if the system expels me, then so be it? 337 00:25:18.179 --> 00:25:22.583 Well, there's two parts to that. 338 00:25:22.603 --> 00:25:27.067 First of all, if you're in the wrong place, you have to be brave enough to get out. 339 00:25:27.107 --> 00:25:31.671 When I was in family and community services, it became quite apparent I was in the wrong place. 340 00:25:32.797 --> 00:25:34.858 And no matter what I did, I was never going to shift it. 341 00:25:35.478 --> 00:25:39.240 So that wouldn't have worked out well for them or me or the customers. 342 00:25:39.260 --> 00:25:39.860 So I got out. 343 00:25:41.821 --> 00:25:43.001 But you've also got to be smart. 344 00:25:43.021 --> 00:25:49.864 So the second thing is, if you want to be a change agent, recognize that change is scary and you can't

bring it all in at once. 345 00:25:50.684 --> 00:25:59.648 So you've got to have a long-term game plan, prepared to make it flexible, but bring in small incremental changes and make sure that the changes 346 00:26:00.748 --> 00:26:03.129 exemplify a win for all the stakeholders. 347 00:26:03.169 --> 00:26:06.732 So certainly upwards, you've got to make sure the managers see it as a win. 348 00:26:07.412 --> 00:26:12.515 And particularly if you work in government with ministers, you've got to really make the minister think that's their idea, then they'll love you to death. 349 00:26:13.275 --> 00:26:16.657 So you've got to sell the win, but not in a 350 00:26:18.568 --> 00:26:19.349 in an authentic way. 351 00:26:19.409 --> 00:26:22.210 It's got to be something that's real, but you do sell the positives. 352 00:26:22.291 --> 00:26:25.252 And there's so many positives that aren't seen. 353 00:26:25.272 --> 00:26:37.701 For instance, when I was in the TAFE sector and now I'm in the uni sector, for every dollar spent on education, you get at least a multiplier of $5 to $10 to $15 return on investment in terms of savings to the community and social services, employment, taxes. 354 00:26:38.341 --> 00:26:39.662 But no one looks at investment. 355 00:26:39.682 --> 00:26:40.783 They see everything as a cost. 356 00:26:41.605 --> 00:26:48.687 So it's about convincing the hierarchy of an investment kind of mindset about business, and we're investing in the future. 357 00:26:48.767 --> 00:26:55.470 And these changes will give us a point of difference, competitive advantage, sustainability, all the things that everyone wants, 358 00:26:56.257 --> 00:27:00.259 but in a way that does good things for the planet and good things for younger people. 359 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:12.826 This dinosaur mentality of we flog people to death until they're exhausted and fall over and then we can always replace them, that's going to change because young people are now being interviewed and saying, well, I'm going to choose whether I go to you. 360 00:27:12.866 --> 00:27:16.047 You are choosing whether to take me and I might not be with you. 361 00:27:16.408 --> 00:27:22.271 So being an employer of choice is going to be a big thing and your staff gives you your competitive advantage. 362 00:27:22.331 --> 00:27:24.672 So you need to start thinking about that in terms of wellness. 363 00:27:26.213 --> 00:27:31.176 And what organisations across the world are doing is they're bringing in wellness programs with yoga and stress relief. 364 00:27:31.656 --> 00:27:33.157 The research shows they don't work. 365 00:27:33.357 --> 00:27:37.039 You need to have a workplace culture that prevents those things from happening. 366 00:27:37.819 --> 00:27:40.921 So it's about really reshaping. 367 00:27:41.081 --> 00:27:45.503 And the big challenge is I kind of laughed when I did human resources at uni. 368 00:27:45.583 --> 00:27:47.344 I thought I was going there to look after people. 369 00:27:47.384 --> 00:27:53.448 But it became quite clear that it was just an army force to kind of discourse to help. 370 00:27:54.766 --> 00:27:57.987 to put out kind of control mechanisms and to punish those that didn't. 371 00:27:58.147 --> 00:28:00.208 So human resources isn't humane at all. 372 00:28:00.688 --> 00:28:06.870 We need to reshape human resources so they actually support people rather than protect the organisation. 373 00:28:06.930 --> 00:28:20.394 Now, there might be organisations that have great human resources, but I've had thousands of conversations with staff from all walks of life across this country, and I haven't heard anyone yet say human resources really helped me when I had an issue. 374 00:28:22.030 --> 00:28:24.212 I love that bringing the humanity back to human resources. 375 00:28:24.252 --> 00:28:33.480 And I think that applies across the board to bringing the humanity back to our leadership because everything I'm hearing from you is how do we connect more in with our communities, with our sense of self and our place in the world. 376 00:28:34.181 --> 00:28:47.113 I think there's another thing that I've at least observed, and this is, I've stolen a fact from you that you shared last time that we spoke, which is in 1900, the information in the world that was available was doubling every hundred years and now it doubles every 12 hours, which boggles my mind. 377 00:28:48.214 --> 00:28:48.534 I would, 378 00:28:49.313 --> 00:29:03.864 suggest that maybe that's not equating to an increase in wisdom and an understanding and that we're kind of being bombarded with information, but that people aren't really taking it on and converting it into that sort of wisdom, insight and leadership that we need to drive the change that we're talking about. 379 00:29:04.765 --> 00:29:06.226 What do you observe in this? 380 00:29:06.246 --> 00:29:08.448 Do you think that that's the case and what can we do about it? 381 00:29:10.109 --> 00:29:13.532 Certainly, there's a big problem with data and information. 382 00:29:13.552 --> 00:29:14.372 But before I do, 383 00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:19.460 how these problems came to be or what is fueling it. 384 00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:29.583 And so there's $366 billion a year spent on leadership programs annually, or a year annually, same thing, tautology. 385 00:29:29.623 --> 00:29:33.384 There's $366 billion a year spent globally on leadership programs. 386 00:29:33.404 --> 00:29:34.104 Can you believe that? 387 00:29:35.185 --> 00:29:38.285 Wouldn't I love a piece of that pie? 388 00:29:38.305 --> 00:29:41.266 366, but leadership is failing. 389 00:29:41.286 --> 00:29:43.307 366 billion and it's failing. 390 00:29:45.517 --> 00:29:46.718 And why is that the case? 391 00:29:47.038 --> 00:29:51.200 It's because all of these leadership programs focus on the historic why. 392 00:29:52.041 --> 00:30:01.366 The historic why, if you look at Harvard, the definition of leadership, is about achieving

delineated outcomes within specified timeframes with the budget through people. 393 00:30:01.766 --> 00:30:02.767 Something like that. 394 00:30:03.467 --> 00:30:07.690 And that's what everyone's doing with this $366 billion. 395 00:30:07.870 --> 00:30:10.632 I hear it every night or every week on television. 396 00:30:10.672 --> 00:30:12.873 It nearly makes me keel over and have a heart attack. 397 00:30:13.877 --> 00:30:18.539 We need to be more effective and we need to be more efficient and we need efficiencies and productivities. 398 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.640 We give you a pay rise, we want more productivities. 399 00:30:21.340 --> 00:30:22.160 Where does that end? 400 00:30:23.021 --> 00:30:28.583 The Aboriginal definition of leadership that I've created being with elders for so long is totally different. 401 00:30:29.443 --> 00:30:37.787 The Aboriginal definition of leadership is I must fulfill my responsibilities to care for my place and all things in my place for my children's children's children's children. 402 00:30:38.653 --> 00:30:42.316 I care for my place and all things in my place for my children's children's children's children. 403 00:30:42.817 --> 00:30:44.158 So that's long term thinking. 404 00:30:44.718 --> 00:30:47.220 So we don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. 405 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:48.481 So we need to bring the two together. 406 00:30:49.062 --> 00:30:54.787 So the definition that I call the two worlds definition that's in my new book coming up is that. 407 00:30:56.260 --> 00:31:12.351 definition of leadership in this brave new world is to achieve organisational sustainability and profitability in a way that supports wellbeing of the environment and society and the greater good for future generations. 408 00:31:12.371 --> 00:31:18.736 That's not a hard one to remember to say, look, yeah, we want to be profitable, but we want to care for people coming down the track. 409 00:31:18.776 --> 00:31:21.598 So how does that relate to this data, information, knowledge and wisdom? 410 00:31:24.542 --> 00:31:32.689 As you rightly said, that fact that I talk about all the time, the amount of data and information in the world, it used to double every 100 years in 1900. 411 00:31:32.789 --> 00:31:39.355 It doubled every 25 years in 1945 because the World War started to bring more things in in terms of knowledge. 412 00:31:40.136 --> 00:31:41.497 Now it doubles every 12 hours. 413 00:31:41.617 --> 00:31:43.559 Now, you all know this. 414 00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:46.081 You have a day off work and you freak out. 415 00:31:46.101 --> 00:31:48.664 You think, I don't know if I want to go back to work, so I'll have 100 emails. 416 00:31:49.562 --> 00:31:55.987 because we're all contributing to this problem because we get an email and we'll go, I don't know who to send this to, so I'll send it to everybody. 417 00:31:57.148 --> 00:32:04.814 So we're contributing to our own decay by circulating all this noise because this data, it's impossible to keep up with it all. 418 00:32:05.534 --> 00:32:06.275 Absolutely impossible. 419 00:32:06.795 --> 00:32:08.917 But if we're hard workers and committed, we try to. 420 00:32:10.045 --> 00:32:14.869 But data gets transformed into information and in accounting, we know garbage in, garbage out. 421 00:32:15.169 --> 00:32:17.531 You get the wrong data, it'll give you garbage. 422 00:32:18.151 --> 00:32:21.834 And yet we get it all and we try and process it and we don't know what we're measuring half the time. 423 00:32:21.874 --> 00:32:23.896 And the majority of cases, the KPIs are wrong. 424 00:32:24.857 --> 00:32:26.918 So we're measuring the wrong things with the wrong data. 425 00:32:27.819 --> 00:32:31.122 But we kind of get a bit excited and say, I have a bit of information here, isn't that good? 426 00:32:32.036 --> 00:32:33.597 Well, information isn't much good at all. 427 00:32:33.657 --> 00:32:35.097 It needs to be transferred into knowledge. 428 00:32:35.457 --> 00:32:37.178 So this is a transformation process. 429 00:32:37.638 --> 00:32:41.679 And so there are some organisations that might say, no, we're a knowledge organisation. 430 00:32:42.139 --> 00:32:44.120 We transfer data into information and knowledge. 431 00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:44.760 It's really good. 432 00:32:45.701 --> 00:32:52.503 Well, that's great, but that's not the one that will give you the success in terms of changing the world and supporting your sustainability. 433 00:32:53.093 --> 00:32:55.435 What you really need is to be a wisdom organisation. 434 00:32:55.475 --> 00:32:56.376 So what is wisdom? 435 00:32:56.976 --> 00:33:02.221 It's when you grab this knowledge and you use it in a positive and productive way to create something good. 436 00:33:03.562 --> 00:33:04.183 That's wisdom. 437 00:33:04.703 --> 00:33:16.834 And organisations I've been to, a lot of data, a lot of information, some knowledge, I see very, very little wisdom because people are too busy rushing. 438 00:33:18.115 --> 00:33:18.516 Wisdom... 439 00:33:19.683 --> 00:33:21.685 Can't be kind of just plucked out of the air. 440 00:33:21.745 --> 00:33:26.470 Wisdom has to be kind of respected and found and it will come to you. 441 00:33:26.990 --> 00:33:30.674 Our old people can sit around that fire and they might not say a word for an hour. 442 00:33:30.834 --> 00:33:32.716 And when I first went bush, it drove me mad. 443 00:33:33.613 --> 00:33:36.674 And I realised, wow, there's power in this silence. 444 00:33:37.374 --> 00:33:39.274 Aboriginal people are really comfortable in silence. 445 00:33:39.974 --> 00:33:43.955 And so we sit there and then the wisdom starts to come and we build. 446 00:33:44.675 --> 00:33:50.576 And this is captured by a saying, or it's a funny kind of observation of meetings. 447 00:33:50.596 --> 00:34:01.918 So our old people say, when those non-Aboriginal people, but they'll say those white fellas, but when those Westerners all sit around a

table having a meeting, they're all just a bunch of cockatoos. 448 00:34:02.756 --> 00:34:11.399 They sit there, they get their little things up here and they parade and they flap their wings and they're squawking and they're squawking and they're, oh, let's make a lot of noise. 449 00:34:12.839 --> 00:34:15.340 And that's what we do because we have to push our own brand. 450 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.761 I remember representing a team in an organisation. 451 00:34:17.861 --> 00:34:20.001 I used to have to do it as an executive, not as a CEO. 452 00:34:20.421 --> 00:34:21.142 And I hated it. 453 00:34:22.282 --> 00:34:24.543 And those old people say, there are all those cockatoos there. 454 00:34:25.063 --> 00:34:28.284 And those people at those meetings, they listen so they can talk. 455 00:34:29.264 --> 00:34:31.445 They just listen so they can talk and they all squawk. 456 00:34:32.098 --> 00:34:38.684 When Aboriginal people come together around a table or a fire or a tree, we listen so we can learn. 457 00:34:39.804 --> 00:34:42.627 And there's the power and the beauty of the quiet of that. 458 00:34:43.367 --> 00:34:44.789 We listen so we can learn. 459 00:34:44.889 --> 00:34:48.352 So that automatically says, I've got to learn, so I need to be quiet. 460 00:34:48.392 --> 00:34:49.332 I don't need to squawk. 461 00:34:49.993 --> 00:34:55.217 I don't have the pressure of having to get my little comb up and down and say, look, mine's really pretty. 462 00:34:55.698 --> 00:34:56.458 We can pull back. 463 00:34:57.019 --> 00:34:58.360 And that's how we create wisdom. 464 00:35:00.768 --> 00:35:12.537 I think and it's interesting what you were just sharing and I think actually your first point when you were sharing about your story and how you were feeling about yourself and how that showed up in how you presented as a leader how you were navigating the world. 465 00:35:13.058 --> 00:35:25.328 They feel really connected because I think that when you're not feeling absolutely valid in your place in the world when you have, you know, not reached a place of care and love for yourself, let alone the people and planet around you. 466 00:35:25.879 --> 00:35:31.690 you will naturally feel the need to continue finding that validation, finding that sense of importance, showing, oh, I know things. 467 00:35:32.251 --> 00:35:34.615 And as you said, being that cockatoo with a lot to say, 468 00:35:35.227 --> 00:35:50.338 And that if we can create a space where people can reach that place where they feel that their space is validated, that they can be in that circle, in that dialogue and have the comfort to sit in the wisdom creation of that, that that's such a great opportunity. 469 00:35:50.358 --> 00:35:57.383 And there's actually been a question that came in from Richard that I think fits perfectly with this conversation we're having right now, which is how do we bring this wisdom into? 470 00:35:57.783 --> 00:36:23.320 into the classroom because young people and teachers need to hear this because ideally we're getting this shift in culture and this shift in approach in at such an early age how do we bake this in to how we are raising and educating our young people well that's a great question by Richard and in fact it aligns with some consultancy work I did probably four years ago now with my son who's jumped ship and gone to a university to be an academic and left me high and dry 471 00:36:24.782 --> 00:36:27.183 so we won't even bother talking about how you can't rely on sons. 472 00:36:27.243 --> 00:36:28.143 No, I'm very proud of him. 473 00:36:28.223 --> 00:36:39.226 My son and I did this great research on mental health for Aboriginal communities around the Central Coast, but on behalf of New South Wales Health across the state, and we can use this across the country. 474 00:36:40.206 --> 00:36:43.387 And what we came up with was, with a lot of the problems we're seeing in mental health, 475 00:36:44.908 --> 00:36:46.969 And it's also my research in my PhD. 476 00:36:47.769 --> 00:37:04.215 What I identified in my PhD for Aboriginal people in this instance, was that we can be in no other place than we are currently now, given what has been done to us in terms of our people, in terms of all the impacts of assimilation, acculturation, massacres, and all those things. 477 00:37:04.435 --> 00:37:10.697 We can be in no other place than where we are now in terms of government dependency, because 90% of our people, 10% 478 00:37:12.838 --> 00:37:27.669 are in the bottom 10 percentile of poor people in the 90 percent are in the bottom 10 percent of income earners and what I was able to show in my PhD was government focuses on symptoms not cause and the cause is the taking away of culture 479 00:37:28.755 --> 00:37:29.496 That is the cause. 480 00:37:29.636 --> 00:37:31.998 It's taken away our sense of identity, meaning and purpose. 481 00:37:32.498 --> 00:37:35.281 But also in terms of racism, it's a very unsafe environment. 482 00:37:35.641 --> 00:37:39.044 So we need non-Aboriginal people to be educated about all this. 483 00:37:39.445 --> 00:37:43.228 And then we create this commonality of unity, which is what our law is about. 484 00:37:43.368 --> 00:37:45.430 We care for this place and all things in our place together. 485 00:37:46.071 --> 00:37:48.593 And so we came up with a model and we said there needs to be 486 00:37:49.370 --> 00:38:00.751 funding from the health sector, from government, that's actually channeled into the education sector that brings in elders and knowledge owners into all classrooms throughout the country 487 00:38:01.726 --> 00:38:03.047 to teach this stuff to the kids. 488 00:38:03.827 --> 00:38:14.493 At the moment, if you get a good principal, they might hive off a couple of thousand dollars and bring in a smoking ceremony and a dancer once or twice a year, or they might put on an Aboriginal education assistant to do good things. 489 00:38:14.894 --> 00:38:21.077

But systemically, there isn't enough effort put into making sure this knowledge comes forth into the classroom. 490 00:38:21.677 --> 00:38:31.063 And the thing is, when this knowledge is shared, we all benefit, not just Aboriginal kids, not Aboriginal kids, the system itself, because down the track, we won't have 491 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.422 19 times the amount of Aboriginal people going into jails. 492 00:38:34.442 --> 00:38:38.446 We won't have 34 times the amount of women with domestic violence in hospital. 493 00:38:38.926 --> 00:38:41.329 We won't have 10 times the amount of kids being taken away. 494 00:38:41.789 --> 00:38:43.131 So these things are investments. 495 00:38:43.151 --> 00:38:45.413 So we need them to be brought into the classroom. 496 00:38:45.453 --> 00:38:51.860 Having said that, Richard must be kind of paid by me because I have a new book coming out today. 497 00:38:52.955 --> 00:38:54.676 That's just the most beautiful book. 498 00:38:54.696 --> 00:38:58.317 And I'm going down to the bookshop when I'm finished here to see if it's in there. 499 00:38:58.357 --> 00:39:01.138 And it's 150 pages and it's for primary school kids. 500 00:39:01.858 --> 00:39:07.360 And it has all these storylines and dream stories around body image and what do I do when I'm sad. 501 00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:09.441 And it's got all these cultural aspects. 502 00:39:09.521 --> 00:39:12.042 It's got an old man talking to these two young kids. 503 00:39:12.975 --> 00:39:21.820 And it aims to create conversations with adults and teachers and kids about how to live an improved life of wellbeing. 504 00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:26.823 And so that's the way we bring it into the classrooms is we all need to start asking for it at the end of the day. 505 00:39:27.263 --> 00:39:28.164 That's what we need to do. 506 00:39:30.970 --> 00:39:53.836 Forgive me for the slight tangent that I'd love to take on this, but I imagine I'm not the only person feeling this way, which is if you're someone like me who feels such a deep resonance, feels like ignited by the excitement and passion of what's possible with this kind of leadership, but is, you know, a white Australian, is a settler Australian, what is the best way to be a champion of this in a way that's appropriate and respectful? 507 00:39:53.896 --> 00:39:57.377 Like how can we best collaborate and build community? 508 00:39:57.457 --> 00:39:59.077 What would your tips be to someone who's, 509 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:03.581 maybe taken the Western approach of being all too excited and ready to jump into action. 510 00:40:03.901 --> 00:40:06.381 But what would your tips be for a more measured approach? 511 00:40:06.441 --> 00:40:28.006 In Aboriginal communities, what we don't want is like tens of thousands of rampant believers that want to help us and save our lives because on any given day we're wrestling with suicide and death and jails and all sorts of things that require our focus because our definition of success is the richness of our relationships, whereas the Western world is more about your profile 512 00:40:28.226 --> 00:40:30.468 and power and materiality and influence. 513 00:40:31.169 --> 00:40:40.977 The Aboriginal world relationships are still our cornerstone and that's captured in a beautiful saying, while the Western world builds armies and weapons of war, we continue to build relationships. 514 00:40:41.971 --> 00:40:43.132 So it's about relationships. 515 00:40:43.693 --> 00:40:47.937 And the way to do it is a week like this week, NAIDOC, go to a local event and just be seen. 516 00:40:48.177 --> 00:40:52.281 Don't necessarily feel that you have to press yourself to make friends, just be seen. 517 00:40:52.821 --> 00:41:04.192 And then when you see other Aboriginal community events, just be seen and eventually say hello and start to build that relationship in no different ways than when you go out courting with someone, just take it slow. 518 00:41:05.092 --> 00:41:09.515 and share a little bit of yourself, another person will share, and you build that relationship. 519 00:41:09.555 --> 00:41:12.797 And at some point, then you might actually say, let's have a cup of coffee. 520 00:41:13.598 --> 00:41:21.603 But organisationally, you might approach organisations and do so respectfully and say, we'd love to have a cup of tea sometime and just get to know what you do. 521 00:41:22.384 --> 00:41:25.766 And so it's important to get to know someone before you go saying you love them. 522 00:41:26.367 --> 00:41:29.008 So you don't want to go to an organisation and say, can we do a partnership? 523 00:41:29.028 --> 00:41:30.890 We need it because our organisation will go... 524 00:41:31.987 --> 00:41:32.867 Yeah, what are you up to? 525 00:41:33.087 --> 00:41:34.208 You're coming on a bit strongly. 526 00:41:34.228 --> 00:41:36.649 And in fact, our organisations, this is a bit naughty. 527 00:41:37.169 --> 00:41:39.049 They'll say these fellows, they're seagulls. 528 00:41:39.590 --> 00:41:44.451 They come in in their white cars, they take the chips and all they leave behind is the poo for us to mop up. 529 00:41:45.332 --> 00:41:46.592 So you don't want to be a seagull. 530 00:41:47.012 --> 00:41:48.753 You want to be respectful and take your time. 531 00:41:50.273 --> 00:41:50.794 I love that. 532 00:41:50.814 --> 00:41:52.134 And it's so it's a testament. 533 00:41:52.154 --> 00:41:53.775 I have this conversation with people so often. 534 00:41:54.275 --> 00:42:00.837 These questions and challenges are often far simpler, like implementing the solution challenging, but the concept is far simpler. 535 00:42:01.307 --> 00:42:03.771 It's not more complicated than connecting with any other human. 536 00:42:03.811 --> 00:42:06.555 And I see it with the intergenerational collaboration work that I do. 537 00:42:06.996 --> 00:42:09.499 People like how do I build a trusting network of young people? 538 00:42:09.540 --> 00:42:13.085 And it's you

show up consistently, you build that relationship, you show that you're someone 539 00:42:13.562 --> 00:42:16.305 who can be relied on, who isn't there for the image, for the photo op. 540 00:42:16.685 --> 00:42:23.992 Because I've been shuffled next to all too many parliamentarians who wanted the photo and then didn't want to talk about the substantive policy change as well. 541 00:42:24.012 --> 00:42:24.313 You got it. 542 00:42:24.893 --> 00:42:27.376 So basically relationships are built on trust. 543 00:42:27.936 --> 00:42:28.717 How do you build trust? 544 00:42:28.757 --> 00:42:29.418 It needs time. 545 00:42:29.858 --> 00:42:31.239 What do businesses not have time? 546 00:42:31.780 --> 00:42:34.543 So you need to come up with a way, how do we make time? 547 00:42:35.123 --> 00:42:38.949 Because if you don't, if you're reactive, it will continue to be a disaster. 548 00:42:39.369 --> 00:42:41.692 It's in the same way with recruitment for Aboriginal staff. 549 00:42:41.752 --> 00:42:44.136 People say, let's recruit Aboriginal staff, that'll be great. 550 00:42:44.897 --> 00:42:47.560 Well, not every Aboriginal person wants to go and work for you anyway. 551 00:42:48.241 --> 00:42:49.503 But if they do... 552 00:42:50.404 --> 00:42:51.265 You need to plan it. 553 00:42:51.845 --> 00:42:53.646 Workforce planning sucks in this country. 554 00:42:53.706 --> 00:42:58.928 People are never planning in terms of how do we plant the seeds for younger generations to bring them on board. 555 00:42:59.428 --> 00:43:00.649 What they do is put an ad out. 556 00:43:01.169 --> 00:43:03.790 And if you've got skills in the Aboriginal community, everyone wants you. 557 00:43:04.230 --> 00:43:09.253 So the chances are your seed will fall on bad ground and it won't fruit. 558 00:43:09.273 --> 00:43:10.133 And people say, I give up. 559 00:43:10.193 --> 00:43:11.294 I can't get Aboriginal people. 560 00:43:11.314 --> 00:43:12.254 They just don't want to work for me. 561 00:43:12.694 --> 00:43:14.995 It's because you haven't thought generations ahead. 562 00:43:17.808 --> 00:43:19.789 And it's that need to move at the speed of trust. 563 00:43:19.829 --> 00:43:22.431 And as you said, we need to create that runway and create that space. 564 00:43:22.451 --> 00:43:24.852 If it's truly a priority, we will find ways. 565 00:43:24.872 --> 00:43:28.714 As we saw with COVID, if a big enough imperative happens, the world can change overnight. 566 00:43:28.754 --> 00:43:33.097 And so we just need to continue communicating and storytelling so that people understand. 567 00:43:33.237 --> 00:43:36.559 The last question I would love to pose to you before I know we have to let you go. 568 00:43:36.939 --> 00:43:43.443 And I think that we've almost gotten your voice to the end of what it can handle for today is what legacy do you hope to leave through your work? 569 00:43:43.844 --> 00:43:47.677 and how can other organisational leaders shape a legacy that truly matters? 570 00:43:51.538 --> 00:43:57.924 Well, to tap into legacy, I want to actually touch a little bit on storytelling because our culture is about storytelling. 571 00:43:57.964 --> 00:44:03.470 So the old people have a saying, when we leave this world behind, all we leave behind is our stories and make it the best story possible. 572 00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:05.652 Again, profound, simple, but profound. 573 00:44:06.052 --> 00:44:09.396 And so for any one of you, are you living the best story possible? 574 00:44:09.616 --> 00:44:15.382 If I could sit with you for a while, some of you would go, yeah, others would say, no, a majority would say, don't think so. 575 00:44:16.042 --> 00:44:19.743 I was asked on stage one day, how do I know if I'm living the best story possible? 576 00:44:19.763 --> 00:44:23.704 And I said, well, if I dropped it dead tomorrow, which I don't want to and don't plan on being. 577 00:44:25.085 --> 00:44:33.267 But if I did, I could say I've had a great life because every day I found the magic and I have gratitude for what I've been given every day. 578 00:44:33.887 --> 00:44:34.927 And I have no regrets. 579 00:44:34.987 --> 00:44:38.628 When mistakes happen, I go, that happened and that gives me a chance to learn. 580 00:44:38.668 --> 00:44:40.029 So I give thanks. 581 00:44:40.849 --> 00:44:42.570 And so that's living the best story possible. 582 00:44:42.590 --> 00:44:43.950 So as an organisation... 583 00:44:45.416 --> 00:44:48.080 As an organisation, what stories are you creating? 584 00:44:48.140 --> 00:44:51.564 If you're not creating great stories, then you're a dud organisation, I'm afraid. 585 00:44:51.584 --> 00:44:54.909 You might be creating employment outcomes. 586 00:44:54.949 --> 00:44:57.292 But in terms of realising your potential, 587 00:44:58.043 --> 00:45:05.945 you're not really fulfilling your responsibilities because in Aboriginal culture, we're born, we're conceived in love, born in love, grow in love and go back to love. 588 00:45:06.305 --> 00:45:12.006 And we were born with a purpose and the purpose is to grow and to share and to care. 589 00:45:12.786 --> 00:45:15.126 So organisations need to think about their story. 590 00:45:15.166 --> 00:45:17.347 The leaders need to go, what's my leadership story? 591 00:45:17.647 --> 00:45:20.527 Because a leader creates good stories. 592 00:45:21.207 --> 00:45:23.668 If you're not creating good stories, then you're just a manager. 593 00:45:24.323 --> 00:45:27.685 And managers are important, but somewhere we need leaders to create great stories. 594 00:45:28.046 --> 00:45:30.227 That's what we want our organisations to do. 595 00:45:30.808 --> 00:45:34.670 And quite often that gets wrong because the culture's wrong, the short-term focus is wrong. 596 00:45:35.651 --> 00:45:36.392 And I see... 597 00:45:37.112 --> 00:45:40.555 I've not seen a good organisation yet that does all those things. 598 00:45:40.895 --> 00:45:42.156 But I have hope that they will. 599

00:45:42.576 --> 00:45:44.357 And what gives me hope is young people. 600 00:45:44.377 --> 00:45:53.264 So when I talk about legacy, when I talk about legacy, my legacy personally, because I'm old... 601 00:45:54.222 --> 00:45:56.924 I know that I won't see the change that I want to see. 602 00:45:57.324 --> 00:45:58.445 And so this is a big saying. 603 00:45:58.505 --> 00:46:01.246 Our old people say, we hand on, don't hold on. 604 00:46:01.827 --> 00:46:04.188 So in my 40s, I started to hand on. 605 00:46:04.849 --> 00:46:07.370 Western Ways leaders just hold on, hold on, hold on. 606 00:46:07.790 --> 00:46:13.254 I'm going to hold on this while I go into the casket because I don't have to share it because someone might use it against me or get the promotion. 607 00:46:13.734 --> 00:46:16.636 The Aboriginal world we share and trust and say we hand on. 608 00:46:17.560 --> 00:46:21.462 So what my legacy is, is to plant seeds of this garden of the future. 609 00:46:22.142 --> 00:46:26.605 So there's not just one generation of leaders coming behind me that I'm with culturally. 610 00:46:26.805 --> 00:46:30.007 I've got two or three generations that I spend a lot of time with. 611 00:46:30.207 --> 00:46:34.749 And the generation closest to me, they're the leaders that lead our cultural practices. 612 00:46:35.329 --> 00:46:39.632 Below them are the kind of apprentices and below them are the ones that are just coming on board. 613 00:46:40.112 --> 00:46:42.013 And we hand that on and we hand that on. 614 00:46:42.713 --> 00:46:50.718 Because the way we will have change is to put the seeds in place with confidence there'll be others left behind that will grow that garden once I'm gone. 615 00:46:51.538 --> 00:46:53.680 So that takes the pressure off me to grow the garden. 616 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.282 It takes the pressure off the next generation to grow the garden. 617 00:46:57.642 --> 00:46:59.283 We don't have to have an end point. 618 00:46:59.803 --> 00:47:01.284 We just have to have a belief. 619 00:47:01.364 --> 00:47:02.505 And you're right about COVID. 620 00:47:03.445 --> 00:47:06.267 I've heard lots of rubbish for years about we can't change any of this. 621 00:47:06.347 --> 00:47:07.888 And in COVID, I saw miracles. 622 00:47:08.668 --> 00:47:11.490 And it's in my first book, The Dreaming Path, that's out at the moment. 623 00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:15.040 COVID showed us that we can do anything if we have the intent. 624 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:18.081 So what's missing in the world right now in terms of leadership? 625 00:47:18.561 --> 00:47:20.002 It's understanding and focus. 626 00:47:20.862 --> 00:47:26.564 But even more so, it's the lack of will and intent to say, I commit to this, this is my intention. 627 00:47:27.784 --> 00:47:35.027 And in our culture, our dreaming path is our destiny and our success is measured by our relationships and the good stories we've created. 628 00:47:35.907 --> 00:47:37.487 And that is our road to contentment. 629 00:47:37.507 --> 00:47:39.408 So I'll leave it on this in terms of a legacy. 630 00:47:39.528 --> 00:47:41.869 If you really want contentment in your life as a person, 631 00:47:43.458 --> 00:47:47.379 It's about creating these great stories around you that will give you contentment. 632 00:47:48.179 --> 00:47:51.800 And that taps into the broader definition of well-being from an Aboriginal perspective. 633 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:57.702 Our definition of well-being says, I cannot be well if those that are around me aren't well and if countries not well. 634 00:47:58.062 --> 00:48:00.583 That's every living person, not just Aboriginal people. 635 00:48:01.083 --> 00:48:04.924 Every person I'm talking to today, for me to be well, I need you well. 636 00:48:05.624 --> 00:48:07.865 Because in our culture, in our spirituality, 637 00:48:08.615 --> 00:48:13.538 We are all one, we're all infinite, we're all part of country, we're all part of the mother's love. 638 00:48:13.918 --> 00:48:15.799 And we need to care and share and love each other. 639 00:48:16.359 --> 00:48:21.522 And we need leaders to come from this place of love rather than a place of fear. 640 00:48:23.412 --> 00:48:32.837 I think if we can just take on a few of those definitions of leadership and how we create the future, I have a lot more hope for our future and, as you said, planting those seeds for the garden of our future. 641 00:48:33.297 --> 00:48:37.760 We are out of time, but this is a conversation I know you and I will be continuing in the future. 642 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.541 A huge thank you to you, Paul, for sharing your insights and 643 00:48:40.928 --> 00:48:46.155 being so open in this conversation and a big thank you to Capa TV for making the For Our Future show possible. 644 00:48:46.636 --> 00:48:50.822 Now for all of those, and I know Richard is already heading to Dimex, he put in the chat to go and pick up your book. 645 00:48:50.922 --> 00:48:51.943 I'll sign it, Richard. 646 00:48:51.983 --> 00:48:53.305 We'll meet up one day. 647 00:48:53.445 --> 00:48:54.647 I'll sign it for you, bro. 648 00:48:55.430 --> 00:48:57.430 And I recommend everyone does the same thing. 649 00:48:57.590 --> 00:49:00.631 But if you are keen to hear more from Paul, you can hop on to Pick My Brain. 650 00:49:00.651 --> 00:49:01.691 He has a profile on there. 651 00:49:01.711 --> 00:49:05.252 And it's an excellent way to continue engaging with Paul in the future. 652 00:49:05.272 --> 00:49:07.352 Oh, he's the best that's coming out today. 653 00:49:07.412 --> 00:49:07.912 There you go. 654 00:49:07.952 --> 00:49:08.673 Well done, Cookie. 655 00:49:08.713 --> 00:49:09.253 Fabulous. 656 00:49:09.313 --> 00:49:14.874 Head to Dimmick so you can pick it up there and learn more from Paul either through that book or through Pick My Brain. 657 00:49:15.114 --> 00:49:18.054 And we will be with you again for the next For Our Future show. 658 00:49:18.134 --> 00:49:19.155 Thank you again, Paul. 659 00:49:19.235 --> 00:49:20.735 And thank you, everyone, for tuning in.