บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 100 The Butterfly Effect

until I have nothing left to say. So, before we go any further, I have so many people to thank. I'd like to do that right now to take a few seconds to thank myself for putting the show together, every episode. I'd like to thank myself for the sound and editing. You do a hell of a job there, Charlie Sandlan. You should be proud of yourself. Thank you for all that you have contributed. I'd like to also thank Charlie Sandlan for all of the marketing, for running my Instagram page. I really got to thank Charlie Sandlan for just bringing on an incredible collection of guests, from former students to ballet dancers, painters, artists of all kinds, photographers. You really have put together an incredible eclectic mix of creatives to speak to. Finally, I've got to thank my wife, Trish Barillas, who has come on four times onto this podcast, her face of anxiety. It's always the second to last episode of the season. So, she will be coming on again. I'm going to thank her. Of course, I would be remiss if I did not give a shout-out to the research department led by Charlie Sandlan, who helps me a tremendous amount on my solo episodes. He goes down a rabbit hole for me every time to bring the articles, the art, the movies, the film, the television that I think are important for you to know about. So, big shout out to you, Charlie, for your hard work. Of course, you guys for listening. So, that's all I want to say about that. Here's to 100 more episodes. How about that? So originally, when I was thinking about episode 100, I thought, "Oh, I'll do this clip episode and put together all these great little moments from all these episodes." Then I thought, "Why don't I do something I've never done before? Why don't I bring on a current student?" As soon as that idea came to my mind, the first person, really the only person that I considered for this was Tariq for a number of reasons actually. I'll just say a few words about Tariq before I turn it over to our conversation. He is an exceptional young man at 20 years old, this kid, and I call him a kid. I know that's probably a little bit disrespectful because he is a young man for sure. But this kid, I'll tell you, A, he's got a wonderful personality. He is open-hearted. He's empathic. He's got a sense of humor. He's outgoing. He listens. He has a quality that oftentimes I have to really challenge and try to instill in students while they're with me. That is intellectual curiosity. This guy has it, a voracious appetite to learn, to grow, to educate himself, not just about acting, but about the world, about politics, about world history. I've had many interesting conversations with Tariq in my office about all sorts of things. He's a young man who plays full out with himself. He's passionate. He loves acting. He loves living a creative life. This is somebody who grew up in Jordan. He's got a very interesting life history. He grew up in Jordan, but his parents emigrated from Palestine. So, he's Palestinian on both sides, but yet grew up in Jordan. As a teenager, he ultimately ended up in New York City. He enrolled, got into NYU Tisch School of the Arts to get his BFA in acting. Well, we're going to talk about how he ended up leaving NYU after his freshman year and enrolling in the studio. He did the six-week summer intensive with me after his freshman year and made a huge decision to leave that program and come to me and get seriously well-trained. We're going to talk about that. He has a very interesting life. We're going to discuss really his journey of how he identifies himself, how he presents himself now as a Palestinian, reclaiming his heritage and his family's history, why that's been such an important thing for him in this last year or so. We're going to get into a deep talk about a lot of things, about politics, about art, about the classroom, and about what it was like growing up in Jordan, wanting to be an actor as a kid, as a young teen, and the bullying and the teasing that came at him for wanting to engage in something creative. It doesn't go over too well in Jordan, but he did it. We're going to talk about that butterfly effect moment, that flapping of the wings that really changed the trajectory of his life. I was just thinking about mine. What would be my butterfly effect? I would have to say it was the decision to go to Rutgers. I would not have met Maggie Flanigan. I would not have ended up teaching for her at this studio. I certainly wouldn't have probably ended up an acting teacher. I wouldn't own an acting studio if I had never met her. It was the biggest decision of my life going to grad school. So, let's just get right to the conversation, shall we? At the top, I asked Tariq how he felt about Jordan, growing up there, and this is where we began. Here is my current second year student, Tariq Kateeb. Tariq Kateeb: I love Jordan. I love the culture. I mean 50% of Jordan are Palestinians. So, I feel at home in Jordan because there's so many different versions of myself. I don't feel like an outsider or an anomaly, and the food is fucking phenomenal. I mean, food to me is very important. The food, I mean, I'm telling you, it's some of the best in the world. Best kept secret is Jordanian food. Jordanian cuisine is amazing genuinely. I mean, the bad aspects of Jordan, I would say, is the lack of art being produced in Jordan, even in the education sphere. I went through a private school. Charlie Sandlan: Well, is that just because it's not pushed or inspired? It's not something that is looked at as important? Tariq Kateeb: I think that's definitely part of the reason. I think when you're in a Third World country, the focus is on building things that sustain and build the economy. So, you want jobs that do that. I think also in Arab culture, there is this idea of if it's not making money, it's not a good job. I think in a lot of cultures, for sure. I went to a British school and even then it felt like it wasn't necessarily put on a pedestal

as a good thing. When there was Into The Woods production, I was the only guy in the production. They were all women, and it was terrifying. It felt like social suicide. I'm putting myself in a position where all the other guys, and they'll say things that they say here in the US, they call you the F-word and whatnot. It was really scary. Everything in my head would tell me, "Don't do it." Charlie Sandlan: So why did you do it? Tariq Kateeb: I think there were moments in my life where I felt very connected to my instinct and to my gut. I think that moment, deciding whether or not to go and audition for that place specifically because it was a new school, I can rebrand myself. I could literally have so many friends not have this idea of I'm an actor and whatnot. I could do well socially, or I could do the thing that I know in my heart is what I want to do. I was shaking. I was terrified, but my head was just constantly saying no, but my body kept moving forward, forward, forward. It was the best fucking decision I made in my life. That decision, you know how the butterfly effect, it branches out? I think that decision was so pivotal to my purpose in my life journey that it completely altered things for me. Charlie Sandlan: In what way? Tariq Kateeb: I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be doing this. I wouldn't be in an artistic field for sure. I would definitely be doing something probably in the humanities field honestly. I could see myself there. Charlie Sandlan: Well, what was the price that you paid for doing it? Were you bullied or lose friends? Tariq Kateeb: So I was bullied a lot. There's a big, big stigma about men and performing arts in Jordan. I felt the weight of that stigma constantly, but also because I kept persevering and pushing forward with doing what I loved, other guys started coming up to me and being like, "Yo, I actually also want to do this." I was like, "Oh." Charlie Sandlan: So you probably were an example, a hero probably to a lot of people that didn't have the- Tariq Kateeb: I wouldn't- Charlie Sandlan: You don't want to accept that as a possibility? Tariq Kateeb: I wouldn't characterize myself as that. You want to characterize it any way you want. I'll take hero. Charlie Sandlan: Well, you probably gave people permission to probably do things that- Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, I think I definitely did because the last production I was in that school was Aladdin. I basically convinced a bunch of my friends who were guys to join the play, and it was the most balanced in terms of gender, male and female, play that we've had ever in that school. Charlie Sandlan: Would people come see it? Tariq Kateeb: Oh yeah, all the time. Yeah. Because I think even though they would say men shouldn't be, every person, even the people who made fun of me, I could tell a part of them wanted to be doing the same thing 100%. Charlie Sandlan: How did your family handle your artistic endeavors? Tariq Kateeb: I think that's also changed over time. My dad, he's a very open-minded person who constantly checks himself in terms of his points of views and lets himself grow. You can't say that about a lot of parents, and I'm very lucky to have that. He also came to the US for college and that Hollywood had such a deep impact for him. His first cinema experience watching Superman is something that he holds so dear, the first time seeing somebody fly on screen and it's like, "Oh, you can do anything. Anything is possible." I think he carried that mentality throughout his life because everything he's done throughout his life is anything is possible mentality. I can only aspire to be even an ounce as great as that man. I had the luxury of being the youngest. So, it was like the trial runs and the pressure of being the eldest is there is pressure around going into an artistic field. Charlie Sandlan: Well, you said earlier you liked Jordan because there are a lot of Palestinians there. I know that October 7th and what started to happen really changed your life profoundly and how you decided you wanted to present yourself into the world and come into terms with who you really are. What was that journey like for you? Because you are Palestinian, but you never really- Tariq Kateeb: I'm fully Palestinian. Charlie Sandlan: On both sides. Tariq Kateeb: Both sides. Charlie Sandlan: But you never presented yourself that way. Tariq Kateeb: Palestinian blood. Well, I did for a little bit. I did one year of high school in California during the pandemic, and California was presented to me as this liberal state, all accepting. You'd be whoever you want to be and they'll accept you and love you. So, I'm meeting people and saying, "Oh yeah, where are you from?" Oh, I'm Palestinian. Instantly, I get a reaction off of that. These liberal, they stand for all sorts of rights, but then I say, I'm Palestinian, and suddenly, there's a reaction that comes through. I noticed people started interacting with me differently, started talking to me differently. Charlie Sandlan: In what way? How would you pick that up? Tariq Kateeb: It's weird. I think that when you speak to somebody and you express where you're from and when you see a reaction, it's like you can almost see in their mind's eye the images that pop up in their heads. I could just see every person I talk to, it's like images from CNN, Fox. This is who they think they're looking at is that type of person. It fucked me up. I was kicked out of a gathering at a house because the person's parents found out I was Palestinian and they didn't want me there. So, they basically told their daughter to have me first either sit outside. Charlie Sandlan: Was this a party? Tariq Kateeb: It was like a gathering. Yeah, a small- Charlie Sandlan: So did your friend come up to you and say, "I'm so sorry, but you have to leave"? Tariq Kateeb: Basically, or sit outside. I was like, "I'm not a fucking dog. I'm not going to sit outside. I'm just going to fucking leave." I had my

brother pick me up and I didn't say a single word to him. He still doesn't know about this. Charlie Sandlan: Why did you stay silent in the car? Tariq Kateeb: Because I know my brother and I know for a fact he would've done a quick U-turn- Charlie Sandlan: Knocked on the door and said, "Listen, what's your fucking problem?" Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, 100%. I didn't want to put that pressure on him. Charlie Sandlan: Well, why didn't you do that? Why didn't you respond that way? Tariq Kateeb: I was appeasing that whole time I was in California. I wanted to be accepted so badly. I also had this idea in my head that if I was going to make it as an actor, these are the sorts of people that have to like me, California. If they don't like me, then how the fuck am I going to do anything with this work? So then coming to New York to NYU for freshman year, I adjusted and I was like, "I'm just going to present myself as Jordanian." Because when you say you're Jordanian, people don't have those same projection. Charlie Sandlan: No, not at all. Tariq Kateeb: Not at all. Half the people don't even fucking know what it is honestly. They're like, "Oh, Jordan, what is that? The shoe?" Charlie Sandlan: So it was the easier route to take, safer. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. I felt it too in classrooms. Whenever I would say to a teacher, I could feel the difference. Charlie Sandlan: Well, how did it make you feel doing that? Tariq Kateeb: I felt like I was betraying myself constantly. I was trying to convince myself at the same time like, "Oh, this is okay. I have to do this. It's fine." But at the same time, I was betraying myself and my whole life, I took pride in the fact that I was Palestinian. I have pride for the fact that I'm Palestinian, but then suddenly, I feel like I was having shame for the fact that I was Palestinian. Charlie Sandlan: No, but you were born in Jordan. So, your parents got out of Palestine? Well, got out of Gaza, I guess, or Israel. Tariq Kateeb: My dad grew up in Eizariya, which is basically East Jerusalem. My mom grew up in Purim, which is a village on the outskirts of Nablus, which is in the West Bank. Charlie Sandlan: They were living in and around Jerusalem. Why did they leave? Tariq Kateeb: So my dad left in 1967 because of a war. They needed a better life. It was too dangerous. My dad, he was impoverished in Jordan and he had a huge family. He has like 10, 11 siblings. They were basically all eating from the floor in their living room, living in the same space, closed space. It was very, very tough. He was like the middle child. So, it was a tough experience. My mom though, she wasn't a refugee. She lived her whole life in Palestine. Then she left after meeting my dad. Charlie Sandlan: So met your dad and they both decided together to move to Jordan. Tariq Kateeb: They moved all around for different jobs and different work. My dad worked in the US for a while, so they lived in the US for a while in different states too. They lived in Saudi for a bit. They lived in Dubai for a bit too. But then they came to Jordan and I was actually born in Dubai for one, two years and then I came back. Then they came back and I grew up my whole life in Jordan. Charlie Sandlan: You're a UAE citizen? No. You don't get a citizenship if you're born... Tariq Kateeb: No. Charlie Sandlan: You don't get anything. Tariq Kateeb: No, citizenship from UAE is like a fucking golden ticket. You don't get that shit either. Charlie Sandlan: So even if you're born in that country, doesn't matter. Tariq Kateeb: Nope. It does not matter. Yeah, they don't care. No, no. You have to be a pure Emirati to get that citizenship. Charlie Sandlan: All right. So, what did October 7th do for you and how did it change the way you wanted to present yourself? Tariq Kateeb: This coincides with the Meissner work and what we were doing in first year, which was the constant thing that kept getting brought up was you got to stand up for yourself, you have to be honest, you have to speak truthfully. The fucking thought that kept going through my head was like, "Oh, my God. I am cheating the work because all I'm doing is protecting myself. I have this defensive barrier and I'm lying about who I actually am." I'm Palestinian. Seeing everything that was going on, it was like I wanted to claim it and I wanted to get back on my voice. I think also, I had moments in Midori's class where that happened, where I felt like I said I was Palestinian. I felt very emotional and I expressed myself and it felt like I was taking power back and claiming that and expressing myself honestly and truthfully. I can never look back now. Now there's no way you can find me saying I'm Jordanian. I always say now I'm Palestinian and I grew up in Jordan. Charlie Sandlan: Well, how did it feel to say that and have those words come out of your mouth and own it? Tariq Kateeb: Terrifying for sure. I still think that there is always, when I'm meeting someone new, this thought in the back of my head, they might not like me. They might have their assumptions about me because if I just say that, they just have an image, a mental image of who I am. But also it means that the people who do connect with me connect with a truthful version of myself and the people who do accept me, I can feel like I'm actually accepted and not just this fabricated version of myself being accepted. I think it changed my personality in the studio as well, because I think I was a lot more closed off from people in the studio starting off because I felt like I was giving them this false version of myself constantly. I felt the same in NYU too. Charlie Sandlan: Our history together, you did not come to New York to study at the studio, had no idea. You came to New York to get your BFA from NYU. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, I did. Charlie Sandlan: You did your first year at NYU, and then you wanted to do something during the summer. You came to the summer intensive at the studio. Well,

just talk to me about how you ended up dropping out of NYU and committing. Tariq Kateeb: Shout out to Midori. Charlie Sandlan: I mean, that's because not an easy thing to do. I mean, to walk away from an academic experience like that. Tariq Kateeb: Also, what we get being in the Middle East is we don't really know things in terms of how the space is and whatnot. So, what we get is the lists that are put up online of the- Charlie Sandlan: Right, what are the top schools and NYU, of course. Tariq Kateeb: That's how my dad operates too. It's like, "Yo, this is the best college for this. This is the website that says that," which is fair. We have no other way of mitigating that. I was really unhappy. I think I'm very deeply passionate about acting, but my passion was being so diminished and not necessarily at NYU, but at the studio that I won't mention the name that I was at. It felt like it was a chore. Every single day felt like a chore. I didn't feel safe either. I think that's an important thing to put out there. Charlie Sandlan: Safe. What do you mean about that? Because that's a broad term. Emotionally unsafe, physically unsafe? Tariq Kateeb: Emotionally. Sometimes that leads into feeling unsafe physically, specifically emotionally, tapping into a true, honest rage. My rage, my anger is going to be different than a white person's- Charlie Sandlan: Of course. Tariq Kateeb: ... anger and their rage. The white teacher's experience of the white students' rage is familiar. The white teacher's experience of my rage is not. Charlie Sandlan: You felt like the teachers didn't know how to handle the fullness of your personality or emotional life? Tariq Kateeb: 100%. 100%. I had an experience where I was completely shut down. It was like that towards the end of the year, and I felt like I tapped into a rage that I'd never... Not just a rage, a pain. It was a pain. I'd never experienced a full life that I'd never experienced. I've been working towards the entire year and she got terrified. She was scared shitless. She thought I was going to harm people in the room. You've seen me, you've seen me. Charlie Sandlan: I've seen you fully enraged fully. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, she was terrified. She got really scared and she said, "You're being violent." I remember I was crying and I was begging her in the moment in front of all my peers. I was like, "Please, please do not say that to me. Please do not call me violent." Because I knew that was going to me fuck up. I was begging her, begging her, pleading, get her to fucking reassess what she's saying. She just wasn't. I slept outside of class and I was losing my shit. Then the worst part was when I needed to talk somebody in that moment, there was not enough people of color in terms of teachers to go to. I had to go to a white teacher and try to express that. You know what the white teacher said? Well, maybe you got it wrong, maybe you misinterpreted it. I was like, "Oh, my God. Well, what am I going to do?" She hits me with an email the next day apologizing. At that point, I didn't stand up for it, so I accept the apology. But then she follows up after I accept her apology by mentioning childhood trauma to me and saying, it's brought up abuse from her father and stuff like that. I was just like, "I'm 18, you're bringing this up to me. What? I'm bringing up abuse from your father. I'm a fucking 18-year-old child. I'm your student. You're an acting teacher. You're telling me that's too much." Charlie Sandlan: So that was your freshman year. Tariq Kateeb: That was freshman year. Charlie Sandlan: Yeah. Let me just say, a freshman year running probably 80 grand a year? Tariq Kateeb: Yeah. Charlie Sandlan: Yeah, 80 grand a year. So, you're talking about spending 300K for a BFA, for an undergrad degree to learn how to act. Well, I mean, it's not like you had any intention of dropping out, but you come to the studio in the summer. What was it about Meisner's work and what was it about that experience that made you make such a huge decision? Because listen, I think there are a lot of students in universities across this country who are unhappy with their training and don't know what to do about it. Tariq Kateeb: I think Midori said it perfectly before coming into the studio. Charlie Sandlan: Just to say Midori Nakamura, big shout out to Midori who has come on this podcast. She runs the voice and speech program at the studio. Tariq Kateeb: She was basically like, "Charlie will light a fire under your ass and get you wanting to work." Obviously, I was terrified because the way she characterized you as well was part of me was like, "I don't know if I can even handle this guy." I thought I was going to be put through the runner. But then I went to the summer intensive. I mean, it changed my fucking life, not just in acting. The way I saw life, the way I interacted with the world. Let's put acting to the side. The biggest thing that it's instilled in me that I still carry right now that I'm so grateful for is the intellectual curiosity that, and I knew I always had it. I knew I did, but just the passion was dead. It was dead. It needed to be lit up by a great teacher, honestly. Whenever I had a great teacher in the past from a subject, it's like suddenly I care about the subject. I was like, "Fuck, I want to read. I want to do this. I want to watch this. I want to take in this, take in that, take in that." I was like wow. Suddenly, I started seeing color. It's hyperbole, but also true. Your experience of life completely gets shifted and it's like you actually start enjoying what life has to offer. I talked to Midori and I had no intention of dropping out still. I was crying to her. She gave me a very, very tough conversation being like, "You got to break out this victim mentality. You got to take charge of your life. You know what you want. Just take that decision, take that leap of faith." I was so upset because it felt like my whole world was crashing on me.

Everything I knew, NYU having the best undergrad, best training, this is the place to be. How many people from Jordan are going to NYU? It's like the rarest opportunity. What would my fucking dad think? All these thoughts just crashing onto me. Charlie Sandlan: That's a heavy thing to have to sort through. Tariq Kateeb: I'm not going to lie, I started losing some hair too. I was stressing. I had a lot of stress. It just felt like everything in my life was a lie in terms of this work, obviously. I just remember having that moment of being like, "I talked it through with so many people and maybe I'm just going to stay. Then after the program, maybe I'll come here." Charlie Sandlan: I mean, were there people that were saying, "Listen, you're fucking nuts. Go back to NYU and get your fucking degree"? Tariq Kateeb: Different reactions because the people who had done the summer who did go back to NYU were like, "Yeah, that's the move. You're so lucky you're fucking doing that. It's very courageous." That's what they would tell me. Not even necessarily actors, but people outside of acting all thought I was fucking crazy. My brother thought I was crazy. He was like, "Think a little bit. You're jumping into this impulsive decision." It was somewhat impulsive, I will say. My dad, when I expressed it to him, I got very, very- Charlie Sandlan: I mean, how do you have that conversation? Dad, I got something to talk to you about. I mean fuck. Because I would think a Middle Eastern man, you get your fucking degree and he's probably like, "You're lucky, I'm letting you get a degree in fucking theater, motherfucker." Tariq Kateeb: That's just definitely what he was thinking, I'm not going to lie. He was like, "This guy." No, for real. It's true because I am lucky that he's letting me get a degree in theater. Now, I'm suddenly like, "Yo, I don't want a degree." Since we went that far, let's go even further. I think what helped me a lot with that conversation was, first of all, my dad had seen me after my first year of NYU. I was like a mess. I think in terms of emotionally, I was a mess. I had no discipline. I was all over the place really. My brother was living with me at this point, and we were roommates. He was telling my dad how much I had grown as a person, the way I would talk, the way I would engage with things. It just completely shifted. Then the way I was talking to my dad, just about how much it changed me and how much I loved the work and that I cannot go back to NYU. I could not continue that thing. I said it to him, I was like, "If you put faith in me..." Because he said, "Do you want to do acting? You get into the top fucking college. I'll let you do acting. That's the only way." Honestly, I think, and he'll say it, I think that part of him didn't believe I would get into a top college. Part of him thought, "What are the chances?" Charlie Sandlan: I'll set the bar really, really high, you're not going to get there. Tariq Kateeb: For sure. I think that's part of it. Just leave me alone. Let me do me and see what happens. I did that for NYU and I got in. He took a chance on me. That's the privilege is having a father be like, "I'll take a chance on you and let you do what you will do and support you financially." Charlie Sandlan: That's a huge thing. Tariq Kateeb: That's a big thing, right? It's very huge. I don't have to worry about paying for the studio. He's taking the money that was supposed to go from my degree. Charlie Sandlan: It's a lot less. You're saving a lot of money. Tariq Kateeb: It's a lot less. It is a lot less money. But for Arab culture, it's a lot less flexing to the other relatives. Charlie Sandlan: That's true. Tariq Kateeb: Say your kid's in NYU, it's a pride thing. Not to say Maggie Flanigan- Charlie Sandlan: You never heard of that place. What the fuck is Maggie Flanigan? Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, of course, of course. But he trusted me and he took that chance on me. I'm forever ever in his debt, not just for that, for everything in my life that he's given me. He's the best fucking father I could have possibly anybody I think could ask for. He's an incredible person and I love him so dear. I love my mother too. I feel like I talk about my father a lot because I feel like it coincides a lot with my freedom. But my mom's also very supportive and I love her a lot. Charlie Sandlan: Duly noted. Going to give a fair shout out. Tariq Kateeb: Just had to make sure she didn't call me up and like, "Hey, what's going on?" Charlie Sandlan: Looking at the acting part of it, you were doing that first year was a lot of Strasburg and method work and you come to Meisner who went in a completely different direction. I mean, they did not agree with each other at all fundamentally. What are the benefits, the problems that you had? How did it come up at the studio, your relationship between what you were doing there and why Meisner resonated so much with you? Tariq Kateeb: I think you know this. I think Midori even pointed it out before, but it's like every method actor that comes to Maggie are always the actors who are the most in their heads, getting to their emotions, indulging in that self-gratification, 100%. I think that was definitely me. I was like, "Oh yeah, let me just get angry and feel like it. Oh yeah, that feels good." Yeah, you set me straight. That entire summer, it felt like I was failing. I was failing the entire... I was like, "Oh yeah, I came to life for a second, but then I was failing because there was so much I had to work on." So the tension, obviously, that's still there, right? Getting my attention off of myself and onto the other person, that was a game changer. Listening, listening. Let me take that back. Listening was the game changer. I was like, "Oh, fuck. You can use your ears?" Charlie Sandlan: Yeah, you're actually supposed to listen to what's being said to you. I thought I was just waiting for my cue. Tariq Kateeb: For real. I thought I'd do my thing and just

they do their thing and then it's a piece. But listening, listening, taking in, processing, and then excavating what comes out from that is like... I think every actor, even if it's not Meisner, has to have a foundation in listening and taking in. Forget acting. It's the best way to engage with the world, with people close to you, with the environments around you, the best ways to take in, to listen, to not keep jumping to impulses, to process things. It's a healthy way of living. Charlie Sandlan: You're also working on, I mean, everything. You take movement. You take voice and speech. I mean, you're taking all of the classes. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, take the full program. Charlie Sandlan: How have you changed as human being, as a young man, as an artist? Tariq Kateeb: I mean for sure, in terms of foundation work, voice and movement, movement with Sarah Fei, shout out to Sarah Fei. She also really helped me tap into my rage and the emotions I felt so resistant to letting out the ugliness of and just being okay with that. Then she even characterized it once being like, "Your rage can be delicious. It can feel good. It doesn't have to be this horrible thing." That changed and shifted my perspective on that as well. Obviously, this comes with privilege and having the ability to take the other classes because you offer the acting only, but obviously, you get a lot of the acting class if you take voice and movement because it gets you more in tune with your body, more connected to your voice. That in turn just makes you better at taking in and expressing yourself and listening even. Listening not just with your ears, I know I said that, but listening with your body and listening with the energy and feeling that. I think all the classes feed into it in some way. Some of the other classes, theater history, film history feed into the intellectual side of things and the things that you need to know going into the industry. You just need to know this history. Also, to fuel your work, your creative work, you need to pull from the past. I think I believe in that very genuinely. So, you have to constantly go back to history, see what people have done, and then use that for future works. Charlie Sandlan: How has your understanding of struggle and failure changed since working with me? Tariq Kateeb: I feel like all of us brown people in general beat ourselves up when we fail. I think people in general. I don't want us to just make that a brown person thing, but I think it's also very embedded in brown culture where it's like, "Oh, you didn't get an A+ on your report card. You got an A-. What? Get the fucking A+." It's just this idea of like, "Oh, you're beating yourself up. You're beating yourself up. You're beating yourself up." That's not to say I don't beat myself up now. It's a fucking long journey, a long ways to go. But I definitely have more awareness of my relationship with failure that, oh, I failed. Okay, that's fine. That means I have a chance to learn.

What can I learn from this failure? What can I take now that I go next class? I beat myself up. The entire summer intensive, I was beating myself up and a lot of first year I was beating myself up. Every time I had a bad class, not to say it's a bad class, but in my head it was a bad class. I would be like, "Oh, my God. How could you present yourself this way? How could you do this, that?" Now I'm like, "Okay, I have a bad class." I sit with the feelings I have, the feelings of shame and the feelings of I want to beat myself up. I just understand it. Charlie Sandlan: What's it mean to have a bad class? Tariq Kateeb: Well, my mentality is the perfectionist mentality of even if you don't prepare well enough, you expect it to be perfect. So, I would go in and I'm expecting no feedback, no feedback, no feedback. It's like you're not learning if you're not getting feedback. If you're doing the work, if you're doing the homework and you show up, there's no such thing as a bad class. If you're not doing the homework, you can say you have a bad class. I think that's the case. But if you're doing the homework and you show up and what happens happens, that's not a bad class because there's things to pull from there. Charlie Sandlan: Absolutely. So, you did the first year. You're in second year right now, but when you look back at first year, how did the year change your understanding or view of what it means to be an actor or what acting is? You did a year at NYU. I don't know what you thought acting was then. Tariq Kateeb: I don't even fucking know what. Well, no. I'll tell you what I do know. I thought acting was emotion. I thought who's the best crier? Who's the best at screaming? The people I was inspired by are the same people my dad was inspired by that he showed me, which is Marlon Brando, Al Pacino, and they have an intensity. So, also thinking that intensity is good acting. I've gotten that note from you multiple times where you're like, "Intensity is not good acting. You don't have to keep trying to be intense." That's what I thought it was. I thought I was like, "Look intense, feel intense, blah, blah, blah." Suddenly, you're putting on a great performance. If I watched my tapes back, I would know that it's not good. But if I'm performing live, I'd be like, "Oh yeah." Charlie Sandlan: It feels good because alive and you're emoting. Tariq Kateeb: It's like you're pushing and it's like, yeah, all right. [inaudible 00:42:04]. Charlie Sandlan: All these effort and no restrain. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, effort. Oh, my God. Effort. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. If I'm sweating and if I'm straining, if that effort is coming through, then I'm doing good work. It's like constructing. I'm putting those building blocks. I'm doing the good work. I'm putting my minutes in. Yeah, that's not true. You learn that it's all about ease and simplicity. That's a big one too. Charlie Sandlan: And doing. Acting is not feeling. Tariq Kateeb: Just doing, true, just doing. Get your attention off of yourself and do. Charlie Sandlan: Just the quality of your emotional life is better than the quantity. Tariq Kateeb: 100%. Don't think of the journey as this upward slope. Think of it as this mountain, scaling a mountain. You're constantly getting back to the same place. I might understand that it's ease and I might have moments of amazing ease, but then I'm not going to have moments of- Charlie Sandlan: No, but it gets more consistent as you train and you get better and you got to experience it first, even if that's for 15, 20 seconds, a minute. You go, "Oh, that's what it fucking means. That's ease. Wow, that's incredible." Tariq Kateeb: No, honestly, feeling in your body. Yeah, that's really what it is. Then if you feel like your homework isn't enough, it's a lot of faith. I mean, I think the work is a lot of having faith in yourself, and a lot of times we're human beings. We're not going to have faith in ourselves. So, then we end up doing the mistakes that we made the first week of first year. Charlie Sandlan: I think one thing Meisner provides, I don't think Strasburg does, is the importance of crafting. If you can't craft well and you can't craft simply or specifically or personally, you're just a general mess. Tariq Kateeb: Crafting was the scariest thing for me because it felt the thing I was most distant with. I was like, "I have no fucking clue. I was always scared of doing work that's being creative and putting your ideas down." I had resistance to writing. I had resistance to so many things because of that, because it feels like you're going to present that and then there's value placed on that. I had so much resistance with the crafting work, but the way it's broken down in Meisner, you still struggle. But if you really do the homework, if you put the fucking time in, it clicks. It definitely clicks after time. For me, honestly, after summer, the things that clicked for me were the month that I was off. Charlie Sandlan: Before first year started, things started settling a little bit. Tariq Kateeb: I was literally watching a movie. I was feeling things, and I was really connected to the actor on screen. I was like, "Oh, fuck, I'm taking them in." I was like, "Shit, this is what I was supposed to be doing, but I wasn't doing. I was so in my head." Then I came to first year and I was like, "Oh, I could take in. Oh, I know what this is." But obviously, again, it bounces back and forth. But again, first year, the time I took off, and if you really let yourself rest, again, privilege, I'm not going to act like everybody has that luxury of resting. But yeah, I think that lets the things marinate and come to the surface. Charlie Sandlan: Now you're in the thick of second year. You're in the real meat of Meisner's training. I tell everybody first year is you're pouring the foundation, you lay in the concrete, and now you're going to build the house. I'm going to teach you how to act. So, what are you

struggling with right now? I know we're dealing with actions and what that means to actually do something in every moment. What are you grappling with? Your first scene, which also you came to in an interesting way, I gave you Disgraced by Ayad Akhtar. Tariq Kateeb: It's the same thing. We're back to square one. We're building another different type of foundation, and it's hard. It's hard. It's a hard balance. It's hard juggling and acting is hard. It's not necessarily easy, and it's a lot of homework that it's so much time. One beat is so much time, so much confrontation, and so much contemplation, and it's just so extensive. Charlie Sandlan: But what is it? What's the work? Why is it? What makes it so challenging to break down a script? Tariq Kateeb: For me, the main challenge, I think, is dealing with language, linguistics, which bleeds into actions and having an action and knowing what's the right action, but also with operative words, how I'm structuring the sentence to make my point. For me, it's like, "Oh, fuck. What's an operative word?" Charlie Sandlan: When you're watching other students work, can you hear it better? When you hear someone punch a word, they're not making the point of the thought. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. I think the most I learned is watching, 100%, watching the other scenes and seeing how when they're using the operative words while being alive, how much more clear and concise it is. Charlie Sandlan: As an audience, you follow it because all of a sudden they're clear and they're making the point, the need to communicate, the need to get this thought out, whatever it is. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah. I'm connected to the scene and I'm watching it. I'm not going into my head daydreaming, which happens. Sometimes I'm suddenly not paying attention, but when that's happening, I can't get my fucking eyes off them and it's incredible. Charlie Sandlan: Did you know or heard about actions or there was something called actions or anything about actions before you started? Tariq Kateeb: Everything with this work I have, I completely blind went into it and just like where it takes me, it takes me. Charlie Sandlan: So what is it about Disgraced? Because I gave it to you and your first response was, "I hate this fucking play. I don't want to do it. I hate this role. I would never do it professionally." You were a little irritated, I think, at me, but then you did a 180. Talk to me about the play and the role you're playing and what it's about. It's a Pulitzer Prize-winning play, Disgraced. It's a big hit. Tariq Kateeb: How dare I. Charlie Sandlan: Big hit, debuted about 12 years ago now by Ayad Akhtar. It covers a lot of potent ground about masculinity and our views of men from the Middle East and the history of America, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, our whole history with this country, potent, 9/11. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's a play that takes place in the post-9/11 America, which is something that Ayad has expressed constantly in interviews that that's his intention. When I read it the first time, yeah, I hated it. I was so resistant to it because I was reading this Muslim man who ends up beating his wife, and I'm thinking the entire time I'm reading this, "Oh, how is the white audience going to perceive this? Are they going to equate Islam to violence? That's what's going to happen." I was so upset, and I was like, "Man, this playwright just writing to appease to a white audience, blah, blah, blah." Then I was reading his interviews, and one of his questions and responses was, I think the Muslim world needs to let go of this... I'm obviously misquoting, I'm just paraphrasing, but they need to let go of the shackles of perception that the West holds them in, not keep trying to appease to their narratives. He was inspired by Othello, and I was like, "Oh, fuck, Othello." Damn, a person of color and that play that's also doing an act of violence that also could be received like, "Oh, fuck." I think there is truth to it now, and I'm sure a lot of Black Americans or African-Americans can relate to this, that back in the day when there wasn't that much content on them, not much representation, if you're showing them in a violent light, suddenly, it feels like that's what's representing all of them. You have one Muslim character on Broadway, and he's beating his wife. Charlie Sandlan: His white wife. Tariq Kateeb: His white wife, and you're putting that in New York and Chicago and in England too. You're showing that to white audiences who very well could perceive the play as like, "Oh yeah, these Muslims, they're just violent." But then when you look beyond the surface, it's so human. It's not even about being Muslim. Charlie Sandlan: Pain is about betrayal. Absolutely. Tariq Kateeb: Depression, pain, being a human being and violence being a human instinct. I think that's a conversation that the problem with the way I view things and the thing is that I mentioned this briefly in class that my writing teacher at NYU, shout out Gabriel Heller, was like, "You write with a white audience in mind." Charlie Sandlan: He said that to you? Tariq Kateeb: He said that to me. I was writing about Palestine, and I was like, "Fuck, why am I doing that? Why can't I just write for me?" It's a hard thing because the media and the way it portrays us, it's always violent. We're always barbaric. We're always savage. Charlie Sandlan: Rock throwing. Tariq Kateeb: Literally everything like that. So, when you see a play and it's not opposing the things that are in the media, what is our primary representation in the country and in the world is that media, because also, US media is the most powerful media in the world. You have to feel some resistance and fear and be resistant to that. But reading it the second time, I was like, "Oh, fuck. I am the one putting this white audience in my mind. I'm the one reading this with a white audience in my mind, instead of just reading it for

what it is, not as a representation of us, but as a human story about human people doing human things." It changed my whole perspective on the play. It was a 180 because at first, I was like, "Fuck." Sensitive times, now you said it yourself that we are even being, especially Palestinians being portrayed as violent, violent. Muslims, violent, violent, violent, violent. It's like, "Fuck, I'm so tired of this shit. I'm tired of people thinking we're so violent. We just want to kill people. That's our instinct. That's in our DNA." But then also is that yeah, it's supposed to just write a character that's fucking PC and appeasing to everybody and not being a fucking human being. I do want to play those characters. I want to play characters that go into those- Charlie Sandlan: Complicated. Tariq Kateeb: ... humanity. Charlie Sandlan: They're not easy to defend one way or the other. It's the antihero. It's that human being that's got so many good qualities, but also has the capacity to beat his wife unconscious. I mean, those are interesting parts. You play Amir's young nephew, Abe. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, so not the person who does the violence. Charlie Sandlan: You're coming at the whole Middle Eastern connection to America and to our past in a completely different lens. You're on that cusp, but could you be radicalized or could you not? Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, it's interesting because I think that there are things within that character and that scene even that I resonate with and things that I don't. But then also, it's so weird because even things that I feel like I do resonate with, it's hard to connect to. Because in terms of solving the scene, not in terms of emotional connection maybe, well, sometimes. I think there is a lot of resistance and blocks that come up for me when approaching this character because it feels so close to home that I want to do it justice. Suddenly, I'm like, "Oh, fuck. I don't know." I mentioned in class briefly how that scene where he was asked, "Do you watch porn?" This was when he was getting interrogated by the FBI. Had you ever had sex? Blah, blah, blah. I had experienced those exact same questions. Because they put me into a room, an interrogative room. My mom had packed a Quran in my suitcase. They brought it out and they were like, "Did your master give you this? What is your master teaching you in the mosques?" And then they start asking me questions about my sexuality, if I have sex and if I watch porn, if I had a girlfriend. The same questions. I was also just in shock. I didn't know that was an experience that I have to go through. I was 16 at the time. This was going into California, and this was my first experience in America. This is the welcome call, just pure interrogation. It was a person of color who first interrogated me. I didn't think that they were interrogating me, and I thought they were just asking me questions. They were curious. I was so naive. Then suddenly, they bring me to this room and it's a white person. I know I'm mentioning race, but I think that dynamic is important of how I'm receiving these questions now because I'm like, "Oh, fuck, if I answer wrong, something could go wrong." They were asking about my parents, where they were born, and they had things about me. It was terrifying. It was terrifying. I remember leaving that feeling so much rage. That was the first time I'd experienced, I think, racism first hand. Charlie Sandlan: And profiling. Tariq Kateeb: And profiling and all that, all the good stuff. In the scene, there's so many similar questions, but then there's a block for me because I'm like, "Oh yeah, I experienced this. So, I should know what my point of view is here," but then it's not coming through and it's not there. I'm like, "Well, what's going on?" I'm still yet to solve that. I think because it's somewhat close to home, it's hard to connect. It's somewhat like the past trauma. I don't want to call it trauma because I don't even consider it really traumatizing, but it is something that I have somewhat repressed. Charlie Sandlan: Absolutely. Well, that was a searing experience. It was an emotionally terrifying thing. Tariq Kateeb: 100%, 100%. I was still expressing I was Palestinian there too. That was bringing a lot of problems. They started asking me about Hamas and terrorism and whatnot, and I was like, "Oh, fuck, why did I say that?" Charlie Sandlan: Why did you say that? Tariq Kateeb: I told my dad and he was like, "You idiot. What are you doing?" I think my dad also thought it was a good idea to say I was Jordanian to adapt. I get it. It's a fair thing. Charlie Sandlan: It might make life a little easier, but not internally. Tariq Kateeb: But not internally. Charlie Sandlan: That sometimes it's not worth sacrificing. Tariq Kateeb: 100%. Definitely not in this artistic space because you got to connect to your true self. I had that conversation with my dad multiple times about whether or not I should express myself, whether or not I should say this. He always feels like he has to take me down a notch. Listen, you don't have to express everything. You don't have to- Charlie Sandlan: Sometimes just shut up. Tariq Kateeb: Just let them have it. When I'm talking to my dad, I'm obviously much more like, "Oh, this is my point of view." But in real life, it's scary when you actually come face to face with it. It's like, "Oh, fuck, do I want to say that this is where I'm from or this is what I am?" Charlie Sandlan: What actor do you want to be? What artist do you want to be? What do you want your contribution to this art form to look like? You're young, you're 20 years old, you got your whole life ahead of you. Tariq Kateeb: That answer changes a lot all the time. The thing that remains the same, when I was younger, I fell in love with it because I loved it. I think part of me obviously was in love with this idea of glitz and glam of Hollywood and success and whatnot that I've denounced as of late. The truth is,

throughout high school and even now, what I feel connected to is human rights. What I feel like art is about humanity always. I think that there are times I feel like actors, playwrights, whatever it is, are a little disconnected from humanity and being a part of humanity. I think the people who I find so appealing are people like Boal and Brecht, those people that took big risks in their space to actually fulfill an important profound message that needs to be addressed. I have this back and forth idea with representation. The more I talk to people of color, the more I realize that it's fucked up to say I want to be a representation of this or that. But also, even just being on this podcast for me is a privilege because I get to say I'm Palestinian on a platform. That is something that's so suppressed, so censored. People are so scared of the word Palestinian. I get to do that, and I don't take that for granted whatsoever. Charlie Sandlan: How do you handle watching what's going on over there right now? How do you grapple with that emotionally seeing the destruction and the death and the genocide and the visceral back and forth in this country between the Jewish support and Palestinians? Tariq Kateeb: I would say Zionism. Charlie Sandlan: Yeah, sure. That's a good point. Tariq Kateeb: I know a lot of Jewish people who do support the Palestinians. Charlie Sandlan: That see the genocide and understand that that's what it is. Tariq Kateeb: Right. Charlie Sandlan: When you say Zionist, what do you mean by that? There might be some people that will be like, "Well, what do you mean?" Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, for sure. Charlie Sandlan: What's the difference between that, being Jewish and being Zionist? Tariq Kateeb: Zionism is the belief in the creation of the state of Israel that there needs to be an Israel for Jewish people to be safe and Judaism to be protected. So, I wouldn't say all Jewish people are Zionists. Some of them, I don't want to say all of them, obviously, assume or have this presumption that we're out to get them or we don't like them. My experience genuinely growing up is that... I've been to Palestine, I'm lucky I have an American passport. I've actually visited Palestine. When I was younger, I didn't really understand things. But even when you're young and you see what you see, I saw soldiers pointing their guns at elderly women who can't barely walk. You know as a kid, that's not right. You know that's against human rights. Any human being who goes and sees those things, they're going to have empathy. They have to. Unless they're so disconnected from their humanity, there's no way. Any Jewish person who goes and sees the Palestinian side of things is going to feel pain, is going to feel like this is unfair when anti-Semitism is present in the Arab world to not disregard it. The reason it is, is because Israel is branded as a Jewish thing. They brand themselves as, "Oh, we're Jewish people and this is our land because we're Jewish people.

So, we're going to take your homes. We're going to take this, we're going to take that." A lot of people had experiences of getting kicked out of their homes. It's a thing. They got this place in 1948. There was an ethnic cleansing. Right now, in the genocide in Gaza, there is an ethnic cleansing. The thing is the media doesn't talk about this, but the West Bank too. It's not just Gaza and Hamas isn't even in the West Bank. That's why the media doesn't talk about it because they can't lend itself to- Charlie Sandlan: That narrative. It doesn't fit the narrative that they're telling. Tariq Kateeb: It doesn't fit the narrative because the only way Zionism can exist is by the displacement and ethnic cleansing of an indigenous people who already exist on that land pre-1948. At the end of the day, it's human life, and that's what you have to consider. The problem is the value of our lives is not on the same level. Every time someone talks about the Palestinian argument, it's always in accordance to another argument. It's never about us. It's never about what we're suffering through. It's about what we're suffering through in response to this. It's never like, "Oh, well, the Palestinians are actually just getting kicked out of their homes. Oh, the Palestinians are actually just dying." Charlie Sandlan: Yeah, their homes or hospitals, their mosques, everything's just getting bombed and destroyed. Tariq Kateeb: Their cultural sectors, their university, their colleges, every single thing is getting destroyed. History is getting destroyed. Historic sites, not just in Palestine, in Lebanon, in a city of Sur and Tyre is getting destroyed, and that city is all ancient ruins, a bunch of Roman ruins and a bunch of beautiful, beautiful ruins. Beautiful important history and they're carpet bombing it. The way I feel, because I know that was the original question and I went on a tangent, but the way I feel is I feel fucking enraged every single day. I see the news because for me, it's all over my social media. Charlie Sandlan: Of course. Tariq Kateeb: It's the accounts I follow and it's unfiltered. Charlie Sandlan: You're seeing all of it. Tariq Kateeb: I'm seeing children who have beheaded. I am seeing that. There are claims that Hamas beheaded children, but I never saw images of that. I am seeing burnt fucking corpses on my feed, and that shit goes so deep into my soul. Last year I couldn't handle it. I literally felt like I was struggling to breathe every single day. It's not just me because I'm very privileged in the fact that I'm not even getting anything as bad as the Palestinians who are living in Palestine or even the Lebanese right now who are living in Lebanon. I'm not even experiencing that, and I feel such a deep pain. My mom, I see how my mom engages with the news and engages with... Her family still in Burin. My entire side of my mom's family is still in Burin in the West Bank. The IDF, they go in and they raid homes on the random. They put blockades

around that village to get to the main city, which is literally a 20-minute drive from Burin. It takes two and a half hours because you have to go all around these blockades. Trevor Noah was talking about this because he's South African. He says, "You put the parallels of apartheid in South Africa next to the parallels of apartheid in Palestine. There's not a single fucking difference. It's the same shit." You can twist it all you want. You just look at the facts, the way that certain races have priorities over other races, the way that the movement, lack of movement, no one talks about that. Charlie Sandlan: There is no free movement around over there. Tariq Kateeb: No, there's checkpoints. You have to go like you're a fucking dog. You have to go through a fucking checkpoint with ARs held by 16-year-old kids. They draft 16-year-old kids. There's no choice. They force 16-year-old kids to go into the IDF. You're telling me you're putting a gun in a 16-year-old hand, and you're telling me that they're going to be rational with their decision making. In any 16-year-old hand, they're not going to be rational. It's the value that's placed on the life, and we Palestinians in general, there's no face to us. People just have this idea of what a Palestinian is, and it's what they consume from the media. There's no face that's put onto it. That's why I think there needs to be so much more Palestinian art in the West. There is so much beautiful art in the East, but in the West, so that people can start putting a face to it. Charlie Sandlan: Well, you have something to aspire to. Tariq Kateeb: I hope so. I hope so. Charlie Sandlan: I can't believe we've already been talking for over an hour. It's interesting because this is episode 100, which is a big milestone. I originally was going to be like, "I'll do my own episode. I'll pull up clips." I thought, "No, fuck that." I started this podcast to help my students during the pandemic, and then it just grew into something beyond just my students. So, I thought it was only fitting for the first time out of 100 episodes, I actually have a current student on the podcast. Every student that's come on here is an alumni and they've been out for a couple of years and they're working, but you're in the grind right now and you're doing the work. I'm really proud of you. Tariq Kateeb: Thank you. Charlie Sandlan: I think you're an exceptional young man. You have intellectual curiosity, you have depth, you have nuance to how you think, and you're articulate, you're passionate. I would just say it's a privilege to teach you. I mean that and the fact that you saw enough in me and saw enough in the studio in just six weeks to take a leap of faith, like you really rolled the dice. I'm going to trust this guy. Tariq Kateeb: I did. Charlie Sandlan: I hope you feel you made the right decision. Tariq Kateeb: Of course. I have to say, nobody in the fucking world takes the acting training as serious as you do and takes their students as serious as you do. You put your students over everything, and no institution does that. That's what makes you different. Obviously, I don't have to even say it, but obviously, it's a privilege to be your student, to catch you in your prime. Charlie Sandlan: I am. I'm in my prime. Tariq Kateeb: I think you're in your prime. I think you're in your prime. I was actually talking to Cassidy a while back, but we were talking how the studio is in its renaissance. Charlie Sandlan: Absolutely. It's the post-pandemic renaissance, and it's just now gotten to that place. The first couple of years were rough right out of the pandemic. It was hard, but no, I love it. The studio is just popping off. There's so much life. It's a great community. Tariq Kateeb: Yeah, it's an amazing community, for sure. Charlie Sandlan: Well, let's get out of here on this. Why don't you talk to everybody out there about what you think it means to live an artistic life and any advice you might have to anyone that really thinks they want to be an actor and what does that really mean to you? Tariq Kateeb: I am 20, so you can also not take my advice, but what I'll say from my experience is that it's getting in touch with your humanity. I think that's the thing I would put at the forefront is being as human as possible. To be a great artist, you have to educate yourself. I don't believe in the fact that people don't know what's going on. People don't know that this is happening in this side of the world. Educate yourself. I get it that you can't know everything. I can't know everything. Nobody can know everything, but try to educate yourself. Follow your dreams and follow your gut and stop listening to your head. Charlie Sandlan: Well, my fellow daydreamers, thank you for sticking around and keeping that phone in your pocket for 100 episodes. If you've got a few seconds, you can go to iTunes and write an actual written review. That would be fantastic. You can go to https://www.creatingbehavior.com, go to the contact page, hit that red button. Now, you speak pipe. You can leave me a voice message. I'll send one back to you. You can ask me some questions. I'll answer anything that you throw out there. You can go to https://www.maggieflaniganstudio.com if you are interested in training with me at my New York City Conservatory. Of course, you can follow me on Instagram, @creatingbehavior, @maggieflaniganstudio. Lawrence Trailer, I tell you what, this would not be a show without this song. Thank you very much, my friends. I'll keep doing the show as long as you listen. So, stay resilient, play full out with yourself, and don't ever settle for your second best. My name is Charlie Sandlan. Peace.