บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep. 67 - Why Construction Tech Fails Without People in the Room

products are constantly pulling 00:04:38.898 --> 00:04:41.309 that feedback to improve product. 00:04:41.814 --> 00:04:46.378 And again, these people on their list is not let's go on the AFIX website and 00:04:46.378 --> 00:04:49.818 fill in a feature request or product feedback form. Like again, 00:04:49.818 --> 00:04:52.605 it's, it's picking those signals up. It's asking questions. So. 00:04:53.531 --> 00:04:57.205 That's one side of it, which is that you just can't beat. Yeah. 00:04:57.883 --> 00:05:04.207 What is, so was what quantity of scar tissue led you to having that kind of 00:05:04.207 --> 00:05:08.643 empathy and understanding of the job site? Or did you just have this inherently? 00:05:09.009 --> 00:05:11.557 Because I think a lot of people missed that. I think it went with my hair. 00:05:11.997 --> 00:05:14.757 Yeah, you went after you. 00:05:15.417 --> 00:05:17.557 Lush head of hair. I got married. And now this. Yeah. 00:05:18.317 --> 00:05:20.587 Instructor will do that to you. Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:21.982 --> 00:05:29.224 Spent about 10 years in construction of major schemes. And I think university, 00:05:29.224 --> 00:05:30.594 there's obviously a lot of theory. 00:05:30.994 --> 00:05:38.361 You're seeing the construction world through this lens of academic journals and textbooks. 00:05:39.095 --> 00:05:43.344 The reality is I went to a multi, like I went to a scheme that's like 20 billion 00:05:43.344 --> 00:05:49.194 pounds, new tube system through London called the Elizabeth Line. 00:05:49.194 --> 00:05:52.414 So you think like, ah, it's like one of the most glamorous projects in Europe 00:05:52.414 --> 00:05:54.634 and you turn up and it's carnage. 00:05:54.634 --> 00:05:59.984 It's everything being done manually. It's people running around all day, 00:05:59.984 --> 00:06:04.764 every day, trying to keep things moving, just trying to make sure that we achieve 00:06:04.764 --> 00:06:07.702 as much as we can of what we should have done, 00:06:08.340 --> 00:06:13.124 and to not be non-compliant and not have quality issues and everything else that sits there. 00:06:13.855 --> 00:06:20.314 But the amount of tools outside of whatever your document management system 00:06:20.314 --> 00:06:21.875 was and the emails was slim. 00:06:22.270 --> 00:06:25.204 There's like a team at the back of the room that have like these flashy headsets 00:06:25.204 --> 00:06:27.971 and they're doing some kind of stuff to like tick a few boxes. 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:30.815 But the reality was no one's sat at their desk with it. 00:06:31.227 --> 00:06:35.074 You'd be like, if you were sat there with goggles on and your project manager 00:06:35.074 --> 00:06:38.574 walked past, you'd have something to do. 00:06:40.934 --> 00:06:45.374 You know what's funny though is like if you like went to a conference and someone 00:06:45.374 --> 00:06:49.844 was talking about that project, that person with the AR headset would probably 00:06:49.844 --> 00:06:55.234 get

the Zoom in and would have an interview about how they were coordinating digitally and how, 00:06:55.774 --> 00:06:58.871 the project was seamless and this is how we shaved. 00:06:59.914 --> 00:07:04.571 The way in which we talk about projects is so wildly, at times, 00:07:05.123 --> 00:07:08.936 different than the actual experience. I think we do everyone a disservice. 00:07:09.337 --> 00:07:12.664 Obviously, everyone's got to protect marketing and margin. I don't know. 00:07:12.664 --> 00:07:14.567 I think there's a more honest conversation to be had. 00:07:15.915 --> 00:07:22.194 Yeah. It's, it's, it's, yeah. The case studies never match the reality for sure. No. 00:07:22.530 --> 00:07:25.364 There's always individuals that like really care about certain tools, 00:07:25.364 --> 00:07:30.076 certain products and like try to drive and lift everyone up with them. Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:31.034 --> 00:07:34.864 I've never, I've, I visit a lot of projects. I try to go and sit at least once 00:07:34.864 --> 00:07:36.374 every month for the last 10 years. 00:07:36.374 --> 00:07:41.825 And that's post construction to make sure that I keep like some sense of reality, 00:07:42.481 --> 00:07:46.910 yeah you just don't walk into an office and and see everyone using tech they're 00:07:47.253 --> 00:07:51.798 they're writing emails and having conversations and putting that on and going for a walk. 00:07:52.644 --> 00:07:55.808 So yeah that's that is still the reality which is a good thing, 00:07:56.331 --> 00:07:59.750 i don't want it to be a thing you can't end up fully digital because everyone will, 00:08:00.255 --> 00:08:03.644 their appreciation for the reality will reduce and reduce and reduce to just 00:08:03.644 --> 00:08:07.267 the guys on site and then they're in a horrible situation where no one can really 00:08:07.546 --> 00:08:11.529 sort of empathize with the real pain and stress that they're going through so 00:08:11.719 --> 00:08:13.375 but there's obviously a balance to construct, 00:08:13.842 --> 00:08:19.867 well and and that reality is is the workflow that you're serving and and i think what i hear is is, 00:08:20.458 --> 00:08:26.264 the human part of the implementation process is part of your product and and 00:08:26.264 --> 00:08:29.144 that creates the ability to like fully, 00:08:29.664 --> 00:08:33.884 customize what what your product looks like in a given environment not necessarily 00:08:33.884 --> 00:08:37.507 customization from a tech standpoint but customization in terms of, 00:08:38.187 --> 00:08:42.614 how it serves the project that you're in front of and i i think that ability 00:08:42.614 --> 00:08:46.052 to create this like human flex layer is what, 00:08:46.807 --> 00:08:51.374 a lot of companies don't get right and it leads to their demise because it's 00:08:51.374 --> 00:08:55.824 not a monolith right every project is a little bit of a unique beast and and 00:08:55.824 --> 00:09:00.309 so do you have the ability to translate

those variables into. 00:09:01.146 --> 00:09:04.507 The tool that will actually deliver value. Sponsor break. 00:09:04.798 --> 00:09:08.009 If you spend any time running a project, you know the answer is almost always 00:09:08.009 --> 00:09:10.056 sitting in the contract document somewhere. 00:09:10.613 --> 00:09:16.209 Catch is that it's almost never in one document. It's split across the contract, 00:09:16.209 --> 00:09:19.819 the specs, and some flow down clause three layers deep that nobody connects 00:09:19.819 --> 00:09:21.590 until it's already cost money. 00:09:21.770 --> 00:09:25.679 That's the whole premise behind Document Crunch. That risk doesn't live inside 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:28.365 any single document that lives in the gaps between them. 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:33.113 And most teams never look at all of them together until they're standing in a dispute. 00:09:33.810 --> 00:09:38.379 The average construction dispute in the U.S. now runs about $60 million, 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.437 according to Arcadis. It's a lot of money. 00:09:41.838 --> 00:09:45.809 And the root cause they point to isn't fraud or bad intent. It's people not 00:09:45.809 --> 00:09:47.411 fully understanding what they agreed to. 00:09:47.649 --> 00:09:50.522 So Document Crunch builds a platform around closing that gap. 00:09:50.725 --> 00:09:56.333 Crunch AI reads the documents, surfaces the risks, and it cites the exact page and clause that's big. 00:09:56.681 --> 00:10:00.519 So you're not just taking its word for it. Project Assist lets your team act 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.769 on it, ask questions across the entire project document set, 00:10:03.769 --> 00:10:08.139 hand draft your submitals, notices, and RFIs right from the chat window. 00:10:08.359 --> 00:10:12.349 And the whole thing runs on your own company standards. So the office and the 00:10:12.349 --> 00:10:16.138 field are working off the same playbook for bid through closeout. 00:10:16.446 --> 00:10:21.429 No disconnects. It's live now across the US and Canada. Go to documentcrunch.com 00:10:21.429 --> 00:10:24.788 forward slash construction conversations. and book a demo. 00:10:25.299 --> 00:10:31.917 So, I mean, maybe it might make sense to also tell the story of you're a planning tool, right? 00:10:32.539 --> 00:10:38.619 And you kind of vertically integrate into being able to enable planning at a more in-depth level. 00:10:38.999 --> 00:10:42.166 How would you describe Apex in like a sentence or two? 00:10:42.832 --> 00:10:47.639 A sentence, that's tough. Or 15. You know, you can write a book. Yeah. 00:10:49.634 --> 00:10:55.394 I, the, the, the line is it's, it's an execution platform for construction teams. 00:10:55.394 --> 00:10:58.754 So you say planning and suddenly it belongs to the, the scheduler or the plan, 00:10:58.754 --> 00:11:00.762 the plan, not who it sits with. 00:11:01.070 --> 00:11:04.744 Like it is something for the construction team. The construction team on almost 00:11:04.744 --> 00:11:08.274 every project in the world have Excel, PowerPoint, whiteboards, 00:11:08.274 --> 00:11:13.311 sticky notes, emails, WhatsApps, everything on the go to try and just keep things moving. 00:11:13.835 --> 00:11:17.184 And there's never really been a tool that's built for them. and there have been, 00:11:17.769 --> 00:11:21.427 tools that have been built for like parts of that process. 00:11:21.752 --> 00:11:26.672 And when I say process, I mean like beneath P6, you've got like look ahead plans, 00:11:27.044 --> 00:11:31.034 you've got daily shift briefings, you've got site diaries or site records or 00:11:31.034 --> 00:11:36.669 shift reports, you've got daily briefing packs going out, you've got visual maps, 00:11:37.191 --> 00:11:39.629 and like putting all of that into one space. 00:11:40.462 --> 00:11:45.744 But like in your first comment like every team is different so there's there's 00:11:45.744 --> 00:11:48.494 a lot of tools out there but like this is how we work like you're not going 00:11:48.494 --> 00:11:54.284 to rigidly fit within this box that we're going to give you like or else but for us it's, 00:11:54.955 --> 00:11:57.574 if we can give a company that foundational, 00:11:58.216 --> 00:12:02.894 non-negotiable set of data like tasks dates logic like the the, 00:12:03.554 --> 00:12:08.704 the must-haves but then the entire feature set above is tailor-made to how a 00:12:08.704 --> 00:12:11.584 project operates, runs, what they need, 00:12:12.147 --> 00:12:14.416 their style, how they run sessions, 00:12:15.002 --> 00:12:17.627 and then you have complete flex in that layer. 00:12:18.050 --> 00:12:21.784 It means the head office always have their dates and milestones and issues and 00:12:21.784 --> 00:12:25.484 delays, but every project feels like they're getting this custom tool, 00:12:25.484 --> 00:12:29.440 but without the build and the pain of actually building a custom tool. 00:12:30.955 --> 00:12:34.844 And it's super important because telling a project manager how to run a job 00:12:34.844 --> 00:12:37.114 is a tasty game at the best of times. 00:12:37.549 --> 00:12:41.124 But asking them how they like to run their job and then like setting up to suit 00:12:41.124 --> 00:12:43.105 that worked really well. 00:12:46.723 --> 00:12:51.808 Have you found that project teams are a little surprised at how hands-on your 00:12:51.808 --> 00:12:53.044 implementation process is? 00:12:53.951 --> 00:13:00.058 Yeah. I, I was surprised myself when we, back in the day, walking through like 00:13:00.058 --> 00:13:02.960 the first version of like, what does customer success look like? 00:13:03.140 --> 00:13:07.008 I'd never met one in customer success on a project. Like the idea that we went 00:13:07.008 --> 00:13:12.018 online and sat through training with someone how to use a tool just didn't exist. 00:13:12.018 --> 00:13:15.480 There would normally be like the allocated person on the project who, 00:13:15.829 -->

00:13:19.428 if you had a question you'd go to where you like log IT service request and 00:13:19.428 --> 00:13:21.819 two weeks later gives you the wrong document. 00:13:23.782 --> 00:13:30.028 So that was my personal experience. But one thing that we've... 00:13:30.228 --> 00:13:35.558 Or, sorry to interrupt, but another customer success favorite of mine was someone 00:13:35.558 --> 00:13:39.708 without domain expertise just reaching out because your usage metrics wasn't good. 00:13:40.508 --> 00:13:42.668 It was like, I don't care. 00:13:44.048 --> 00:13:47.830 That doesn't matter to me. Do you know anything about what I'm trying to solve for? Clearly not. 00:13:48.329 --> 00:13:52.680 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. So like, for, for like health for us is 00:13:53.116 --> 00:13:57.844 like, Hey, you're like, you haven't run that meeting that you normally create your baseline. 00:13:58.088 --> 00:14:00.808 So like next week, you're not gonna be able to compare to last week. 00:14:00.808 --> 00:14:04.068 So do you want me to walk you through how to do that in case it was unclear? 00:14:04.068 --> 00:14:06.958 It was, it was the guy that normally does it, which is Peter. Cause we met him. 00:14:07.248 --> 00:14:14.397 Is he away because we can, so we pride ourselves on deeply embedding ourself within project teams. 00:14:15.182 --> 00:14:20.368 A because if we're actually there like we we asked to sit in on the weekly planning 00:14:20.368 --> 00:14:22.955 meeting for the first two or three weeks for every major scheme so that, 00:14:23.512 --> 00:14:27.048 if they're like doing something and they're struggling like there's eyes in 00:14:27.048 --> 00:14:29.329 the room that they know the product inside out 00:14:29.735 --> 00:14:33.258 they know that six other teams and that contractor are running the same meeting 00:14:33.258 --> 00:14:36.728 and they might have some suggestions and we're trying to do that knowledge sharing 00:14:36.728 --> 00:14:39.064 piece whilst being like the product experts in the room, 00:14:39.853 --> 00:14:43.238 so it's the only way to build that understanding it's the only way to get a 00:14:43.238 --> 00:14:47.868 feel for a company like most of our growth is through referral that team's going 00:14:47.868 --> 00:14:51.868 to mention to the next team and the next and you just can't create that. 00:14:53.373 --> 00:14:59.547 Genuine relationship, obviously, like through a non-hands-on approach. 00:15:00.517 --> 00:15:05.992 Who do you normally, who uses the product? Is it GCs, subs, everyone? 00:15:06.465 --> 00:15:13.407 Combination. Like most of our, if I think about like who our actual customers are, like 90 GCs. 00:15:14.324 --> 00:15:19.953 So, and we're with about a hundred GCs globally that have like revenue over 500 million. 00:15:19.953 --> 00:15:24.088 So we like we got a decent like spread of these organizations to get a feel for, 00:15:24.875 --> 00:15:29.003 depending on the organization so some all of the underlying users are actually 00:15:29.003 --> 00:15:32.833 the supply chain collaborative planning together and the gc is like observing 00:15:32.833 --> 00:15:38.027 and and like feed like commenting and and reviewing their performance, 00:15:38.607 --> 00:15:42.933 and some of them is like the classic like gc themselves they run packages they 00:15:42.933 --> 00:15:47.463 might self-deliver or a combination of so most of these is in the tool are either, 00:15:47.923 --> 00:15:49.248 you've got your project manager layer. 00:15:49.831 --> 00:15:53.170 You've got your, like who runs the package layer. So like, uh, 00:15:53.640 --> 00:15:57.423 in the UK, we might say agent, sub agent, section engineer. I'll include a dictionary 00:15:57.423 --> 00:16:01.063 in the show notes that maps your lexicon to, to, yeah. 00:16:02.343 --> 00:16:07.373 Yeah. But like, uh, over like you might have like superintendents or superintendents 00:16:07.373 --> 00:16:10.770 and coordinators as like the task owners. Yep. 00:16:11.311 --> 00:16:15.203 And then the people that receive I believe the daily plan out on site is like 00:16:15.203 --> 00:16:20.573 the sea foreman, yeah, woman. Yeah. So it's trying to be everything from project 00:16:20.573 --> 00:16:24.244 manager down to the guy that runs the gang, I guess, to put it simply. 00:16:25.045 --> 00:16:28.823 Well, and I think in the, you know, I can speak from a GC perspective. 00:16:29.143 --> 00:16:33.997 I think sometimes there's a thought that you produce the master schedule at the very beginning. 00:16:35.349 --> 00:16:38.621 And then the super kind of owns a six-week look ahead. And then kind of, 00:16:38.621 --> 00:16:41.671 you know, the subs will kind of manage themselves. And you kind of keep them, 00:16:41.671 --> 00:16:45.821 you have some guardrails. But, like, the project kind of just schedules. 00:16:46.581 --> 00:16:50.671 I think the understanding is, like, you create a schedule once and then planning 00:16:50.671 --> 00:16:53.471 just kind of happens. We know that's necessarily true. 00:16:53.965 --> 00:16:57.982 And, you know, I was a big kind of last planner disciple back in the day. 00:16:58.628 --> 00:17:03.841 And it really solved well this problem of the lack of a detailed plan that you 00:17:03.841 --> 00:17:05.571 could track. in the accountability, right? 00:17:06.122 --> 00:17:09.698 The problem was it didn't map back to the CPM or the master schedule. 00:17:10.064 --> 00:17:13.407 And so increasingly it became disconnected from reality. 00:17:14.040 --> 00:17:17.921 And also the quantity of work it takes to do the detailed plan, 00:17:17.921 --> 00:17:21.711 like the work streaming process to a milestone, you can't do that for every 00:17:21.711 --> 00:17:23.601 milestone. You can't do that for every construction activity. 00:17:23.601 --> 00:17:27.119 So you're always trying to stay on critical path, critical path moves. 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:32.791 Anyways, a lot of

tools have come out focused on kind of enabling the last plan, 00:17:32.791 --> 00:17:37.981 last plan kind of methodology but there's like an eye roll associated with you 00:17:37.981 --> 00:17:39.930 know when you talk about last planner so, 00:17:40.998 --> 00:17:45.681 from a planning standpoint what do you think the industry still misses in terms 00:17:45.681 --> 00:17:49.411 of like scheduling versus planning yeah good question. 00:17:50.977 --> 00:17:54.641 If on projects that i was on if someone says last plan everyone like rolls their 00:17:54.641 --> 00:17:58.391 eyes and they go oh shit here comes a four-hour meeting with some consultant 00:17:58.391 --> 00:18:02.771 who charges two thousand dollars a day and we're going to be giving those consultants 00:18:02.771 --> 00:18:05.801 were killing it back in the day. Just absolutely crushing it. 00:18:06.336 --> 00:18:10.381 I want to be an LPS consultant. Yeah. 00:18:11.345 --> 00:18:15.675 So like we built Aphex on the principles of Last Planner without the label. 00:18:16.466 --> 00:18:18.858 Like that eye roll thing is part of it. 00:18:19.926 --> 00:18:22.971 But everything's built on this idea that like the whole thing we're trying to 00:18:22.971 --> 00:18:24.947 do is like plan, communicate, and track. 00:18:25.487 --> 00:18:28.141 But on a feedback loop, there's 24 hours instead of a month, 00:18:28.141 --> 00:18:30.031 which is what you get with P6 at best. 00:18:31.129 --> 00:18:34.484 So with P6, sorry, not just P6, but like contract schedule. 00:18:34.635 --> 00:18:39.218 So we pull in the contract schedule, the guys who are actually building the 00:18:39.218 --> 00:18:44.572 job, break down like level three, level detailed tasks into like subtasks. 00:18:45.338 --> 00:18:48.168 There are some tools that do that, but they like restrict the user to only be 00:18:48.168 --> 00:18:52.138 able to like have the time that was allowed from the contract schedule, which is already crazy. 00:18:52.138 --> 00:18:57.038 Cause like 10 things changed. So what happens then you leave a request to like 00:18:57.038 --> 00:19:00.256 extend the schedule. And by that time that's happened, you've already got the, 00:19:00.825 --> 00:19:04.714 quality team to sign off the thing you've built. That's just not going to happen. 00:19:05.336 --> 00:19:09.147 So we've got this flexible way of giving them the schedule, they break it down. 00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:13.488 We're going to tell the scheduling team that, hey, we've bust the dates here 00:19:13.488 --> 00:19:17.108 and the milestones here, and it's going to move a hundred times a day. 00:19:17.108 --> 00:19:19.998 But this is what they're doing at the moment, because as you said, 00:19:19.998 --> 00:19:22.254 there's been no real connection between the two. 00:19:22.745 --> 00:19:25.738 So we'll show you in real time that this is what the construction team are doing, 00:19:25.738 --> 00:19:28.417 and we're going to give them full ownership of that

schedule because they're the ones building it. 00:19:28.869 --> 00:19:33.316 But this is how it maps exactly to P6. You're going to see the difference every day automatically. 00:19:33.763 --> 00:19:36.828 We're going to show you why they're delayed. Cause if they do delay a task, 00:19:36.828 --> 00:19:37.821 they have a dad, the reason. 00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:42.087 So like you end up with this picture that maps the two. And then ultimately 00:19:42.511 --> 00:19:44.598 one of the biggest killers in construction is drift. 00:19:44.598 --> 00:19:48.268 Like those two things separate and they keep separating and everything's going 00:19:48.268 --> 00:19:51.048 to the right and no one really understands why. And then the narrative that 00:19:51.048 --> 00:19:55.538 goes to the client is there was this massive incident on X, but the reality 00:19:55.538 --> 00:19:58.391 is it was a thousand things that happened over a full week period. 00:19:58.902 --> 00:20:04.546 So we're trying to piece that, that, that like as bill plus look ahead together. 00:20:05.213 --> 00:20:10.536 We're trying to slot in all the reasons and the, the true, why are we actually delayed? 00:20:10.995 --> 00:20:14.878 And it's still from a data perspective tied between the two without being too rigid. 00:20:15.331 --> 00:20:17.378 And that's like the kind of sweet spot that we're trying to, 00:20:17.378 --> 00:20:19.361 we're trying to hit. I like that. 00:20:20.364 --> 00:20:25.568 You've seen a lot of schedules from your time, maybe as a quantity surveyor, 00:20:25.568 --> 00:20:30.408 and then also, in your current capacity visiting projects what does good look 00:20:30.408 --> 00:20:32.537 like from a master schedule standpoint. 00:20:33.543 --> 00:20:37.313 Oh, I mean, that's really detailed. Let me ask a different question. 00:20:38.027 --> 00:20:44.047 What is, what are the project teams that are producing good outputs in terms of schedules look like? 00:20:44.899 --> 00:20:50.091 Yeah. So I think it's part, partly in line with your first question, right? 00:20:50.091 --> 00:20:56.131 Like what, what is a schedule and like some, some projects don't nail the basics 00:20:56.131 --> 00:20:59.451 of a good schedule is something that anyone can actually read and understand. 00:20:59.451 --> 00:21:03.591 If you look at the language and way that some of these are built and the WBS 00:21:03.591 --> 00:21:10.020 and the volume of logic makes it almost impossible to actually sit down and read. 00:21:10.397 --> 00:21:14.141 And like you're dead on day one, if that's the case, because then the schedule 00:21:14.141 --> 00:21:17.051 lives in the minds of the two people that understand how to read it and no one 00:21:17.051 --> 00:21:20.845 else like even looks. So like, that's a pretty bad spot to be. 00:21:21.521 --> 00:21:24.621 I think that's on purpose. We can talk about that, but keep going. Yeah. 00:21:28.125 --> 00:21:32.651 I've got my own views on that one as well. And then an output. 00:21:32.651 --> 00:21:38.871 So there's teams very quickly get to this spot where they're just frustrated 00:21:38.871 --> 00:21:43.236 because the schedule doesn't represent reality. And it's probably trying to. 00:21:44.123 --> 00:21:49.431 Align with some sort of milestone that the senior team and the client want to 00:21:49.431 --> 00:21:55.908 hit because of a whether it is from a bonus to just something that's quite big in public, 00:21:56.718 --> 00:22:01.811 it almost makes it impossible to use so like back on the like how do we work 00:22:01.811 --> 00:22:05.301 with apex some people won't even import the schedule because the starting point 00:22:05.301 --> 00:22:08.861 is so alien they're like i'm just going to build it again because that's not 00:22:09.161 --> 00:22:11.142 anywhere close to what we're doing at the moment, 00:22:11.711 --> 00:22:17.900 so it is ultimately this like reporting tool to maintain a commercial position 00:22:18.237 --> 00:22:21.791 and like a contract schedule anyways it's just a snapshot at a point in time 00:22:21.791 --> 00:22:25.041 of what we thought was the best way from beginning to end it's not yeah right 00:22:25.041 --> 00:22:27.200 not designed to tell people what to do every day but 00:22:27.565 --> 00:22:33.440 it can at least be this helpful schedule that represents reality and isn't just a an aspiration it's a, 00:22:34.037 --> 00:22:37.321 it's it's a thing that people can stand behind and i think that's why there's 00:22:37.321 --> 00:22:40.349 this there's this trust issue and that probably part of that is that like, 00:22:40.529 --> 00:22:41.632 who can actually believe it? 00:22:42.102 --> 00:22:45.244 And like projects aren't paying if they don't have a P6 license, 00:22:45.354 --> 00:22:46.388 because that's kind of money. 00:22:46.817 --> 00:22:53.671 So the barriers are high and the complexity is off-putting and the reality is 00:22:53.671 --> 00:22:56.301 too far from the construction team. 00:22:56.301 --> 00:23:00.451 And those three things together just, it's a tough web to, yeah, 00:23:00.451 --> 00:23:05.297 crawl through. I mean, you pointed at something interesting, which is we have like. 00:23:06.724 --> 00:23:13.044 Somewhat misaligned expectations of these deliverables early on which is you 00:23:13.044 --> 00:23:15.244 know on the design side you know, 00:23:15.924 --> 00:23:21.882 like a fundamental kind of belief or principle that that has informed my approach and perspective is, 00:23:22.964 --> 00:23:27.724 just the kind of idea that the person closest to the problem has the best information 00:23:28.064 --> 00:23:31.244 and should should be in you know empowered and able to to make good decisions 00:23:31.244 --> 00:23:35.884 at that level and and i think you know generally construction as an industry 00:23:35.884 --> 00:23:37.516 i think orients to that view. 00:23:38.828 --> 00:23:41.844 But then from a design standpoint we, 00:23:42.464 -->

00:23:46.534 we put way too much in some ways on architects and engineers to produce like 00:23:46.534 --> 00:23:51.024 this fully coordinated buildable set even though often many of them never built 00:23:51.024 --> 00:23:54.693 anything and and are never going to have the constructability perspectives that 00:23:54.867 --> 00:23:56.928 those that are actually building do, 00:23:57.542 --> 00:24:01.114 and that same kind of perspective gets thrown on to the superintendent or the 00:24:01.114 --> 00:24:03.934 pm or bx or whoever builds that initial schedule, 00:24:04.978 --> 00:24:08.924 there you know it's like you said it's snapshot in time but then we don't treat 00:24:08.924 --> 00:24:13.241 it like that and i i think there's in the same way that projects aren't a monolith, 00:24:13.921 --> 00:24:18.184 schedules aren't a monolith right a contract schedule is is different than an 00:24:18.184 --> 00:24:21.934 actual milestone schedule is different than a six-week look at like right there's 00:24:21.934 --> 00:24:25.618 all these different varieties of snapshots but i do think, 00:24:26.293 --> 00:24:29.317 if i were to say what is a good or bad schedule, 00:24:30.060 --> 00:24:34.774 a good schedule is is a dynamic one right is one that is is and it's more about 00:24:34.774 --> 00:24:38.020 the process rather than the the output of the artifact it's about. 00:24:39.104 --> 00:24:45.564 Show me how you're informing this artifact with live data and and dynamic information 00:24:45.564 --> 00:24:48.032 from the field from the people who are building, 00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:52.764 and and then we can kind of make an assessment of the schedule how much does 00:24:52.764 --> 00:24:59.928 that process come into how you guys integrate your tool successfully into a good planning team, 00:25:00.981 --> 00:25:06.411 Yeah, it's like putting the whole idea of Collapsive Planning and Last Planner 00:25:06.411 --> 00:25:09.732 is to put the plan to the hands of those who are closest to the detail. 00:25:10.231 --> 00:25:15.891 The supers on site and the team around them know that way more than anyone who 00:25:16.146 --> 00:25:21.735 built the schedule or another sort of function in the head office of a construction project. 00:25:22.263 --> 00:25:28.711 Yeah so and and we've had examples of this before where like like we'll have 00:25:28.711 --> 00:25:33.551 a like a part of the master schedule in apex and the team are detailing it and 00:25:33.551 --> 00:25:34.969 like this is our four week look ahead, 00:25:35.695 --> 00:25:38.981 and then when we go through like the theory of how that works you've got a schedule 00:25:38.981 --> 00:25:43.941 that goes oh what if i need to like change the plan next week and in p6 and 00:25:43.941 --> 00:25:48.351 overwrite their plan i was like in what world do you think you know about that 00:25:48.351 --> 00:25:50.021 change that's happening next tuesday. 00:25:51.361 --> 00:25:55.171 Yeah it's on site like that information is going to surface in the meetings 00:25:55.171 --> 00:25:56.528 they're running every day because, 00:25:57.601 --> 00:26:01.481 that's the origin so not only are they closest to the detail they're going to 00:26:01.481 --> 00:26:05.661 know those changes before you do and then they it's not after until they start 00:26:05.661 --> 00:26:09.061 using the tool they realize that that's that's the reality of what's happening 00:26:09.061 --> 00:26:11.510 because that there's that lag of information going up, 00:26:12.102 --> 00:26:16.142 so getting the hands in those that are closest to it means you have an actable. 00:26:20.001 --> 00:26:25.390 With the accent, you could say any word and be like, we say this in Britain. Yeah. 00:26:26.401 --> 00:26:30.161 It's something we could actually feel like we can deliver. It's not an aspiration. 00:26:30.161 --> 00:26:33.391 It's a plan for production. And this is what I'm going to do for the next one, 00:26:33.391 --> 00:26:35.688 two, three weeks, six weeks into the future. 00:26:37.012 --> 00:26:42.408 But then you need, you can't just do that and then like not pass back because 00:26:42.524 --> 00:26:45.388 you're just going to land yourself into an even more difficult position where 00:26:45.388 --> 00:26:50.398 no one can actually explain why the two artifacts are two different things. 00:26:50.398 --> 00:26:52.928 Like the clients still have people on site going, what the hell you're doing 00:26:52.928 --> 00:26:56.078 this today? And your PCX says this, like it's really impressed the two marry 00:26:56.078 --> 00:26:59.641 up, but not in a way that's too rigid. 00:27:00.038 --> 00:27:05.279 And if you're playing games in that contract schedule world then it gets very difficult to like, 00:27:05.824 --> 00:27:09.598 take that information from site and use it and update it and make sure the progress 00:27:09.598 --> 00:27:14.178 aligned and and the the tasks that are yeah happening in the in the next few 00:27:14.178 --> 00:27:17.951 weeks are actually in sync with each other um, 00:27:18.571 --> 00:27:24.686 so i'm not a i'm definitely not a a master in in p6 i've never owned that sort of schedule. 00:27:25.237 --> 00:27:30.598 But the teams that I've been in, you've had a scheduler who like the best schedulers 00:27:30.598 --> 00:27:37.526 for me were ex construction people anyway, rather than like pure schedulers by degree. 00:27:37.991 --> 00:27:43.568 And then you're then not to like offend anyone, but a bit of a jack of all trades 00:27:43.568 --> 00:27:45.965 because you have to, you have to cover everything. 00:27:46.679 --> 00:27:51.608 Whereas a lot of projects, there's like a civils specialist scheduler who was a civil engineer, 00:27:52.188 --> 00:27:57.088 knows how the reality of pouring concrete tying rebar and everything else that 00:27:57.088 --> 00:28:00.378 comes with it so that it feels like a program that could be delivered not just 00:28:00.378 --> 00:28:03.450 an

aspirational thing based on outputs from. 00:28:04.328 --> 00:28:09.468 Rscs six years ago or something like that i mean can we go down a product feature 00:28:09.468 --> 00:28:10.855 request rebel real quick, 00:28:11.494 --> 00:28:18.868 uh so i i'm always I'm always amazed at just how much I can accomplish with 00:28:18.868 --> 00:28:23.537 like TXT files for context when I'm engaging with AI, right? 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:28.088 And so it leads to me recording meetings. I'm in a sales role and it makes sense 00:28:28.088 --> 00:28:29.789 to be able to gather context. 00:28:30.848 --> 00:28:35.897 On site, to your point, so much of context transfer happens in conversation, 00:28:36.431 --> 00:28:38.422 whether it's in meetings, whether it's out in site. 00:28:39.003 --> 00:28:43.662 And I mean, if we're thinking about like dynamic information, 00:28:43.662 --> 00:28:46.218 there's no more dynamic information than the conversation. 00:28:46.793 --> 00:28:53.991 And yet at some point, we have to translate that conversation into the zeros and ones of the tech. 00:28:54.909 --> 00:28:57.552 And maybe this is like the agentic future you're already planning for. 00:28:57.552 --> 00:29:02.693 But like it doesn't make sense just to have like an apex bot attend meetings, 00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:07.252 this is it's already are you part of our product already. 00:29:08.712 --> 00:29:13.222 So if we think about our product and everything that we think about is like 00:29:13.222 --> 00:29:18.492 how far can you reach into the meeting because yeah if it's not in the meeting 00:29:18.492 --> 00:29:22.595 it's another thing to be updated during your day that's not like, 00:29:23.112 --> 00:29:26.542 actively driving something so So like, how do we get in that weekly, 00:29:27.112 --> 00:29:28.582 look at or club to planning session? 00:29:28.582 --> 00:29:31.482 How do we get into that daily briefing? How do we get to the afternoon wash 00:29:31.482 --> 00:29:33.234 up when they talk about progress? 00:29:34.227 --> 00:29:38.112 And our shift report, like you just pick up your mobile, you talk to your phone 00:29:38.112 --> 00:29:41.342 and we take down all those notes. So every person on the project contributes 00:29:41.342 --> 00:29:44.862 notes. So then we use that to write a report for the whole project that like 00:29:44.862 --> 00:29:46.493 organizes it in a succinct way. 00:29:47.124 --> 00:29:51.392 And I'm probably overstepping what our product team would need to talk about. 00:29:52.232 --> 00:29:57.451 And finally, we've already been testing a feature that during the meeting, you just hit record. 00:29:58.025 --> 00:30:01.612 And at the end of the meeting, it goes, here's 30 schedule changes that you've. 00:30:02.812 --> 00:30:05.699 Spoken about. Would you like to make them? Yes. Schedule updated. 00:30:06.207 --> 00:30:09.582 Yeah. And it's tied back to the meeting. And they're like, based on Bobby's 00:30:09.582 --> 00:30:12.732 reply, he's definitely not going to make that date. He said it like, 00:30:12.732 --> 00:30:15.882 is it like a skeptical response to some people based on tone? 00:30:15.882 --> 00:30:18.165 That'd be funny. Yeah. But also like. 00:30:19.031 --> 00:30:22.883 If you think how quickly you can transpose this information, 00:30:22.883 --> 00:30:25.876 so like you could have another team, same project, different meeting, 00:30:27.013 --> 00:30:29.805 I'm gonna do like 50 cubes a day. 00:30:29.985 --> 00:30:34.263 And then we could be like, no, you're not. Cause the guys around the corner are 25. 00:30:34.993 --> 00:30:37.503 They've got more resource than you. 00:30:41.993 --> 00:30:47.513 So we believe the biggest unlock that we can make to like records, 00:30:47.893 --> 00:30:53.593 understanding like where we actually are like performance is like we had to 00:30:53.593 --> 00:30:56.235 do step one which is like build a tool that people actually use, 00:30:56.840 --> 00:31:03.063 yeah um but reducing friction to get the the discussion layer information in 00:31:03.330 --> 00:31:08.873 and use it is like the biggest unlock because like like we use granola or whatever 00:31:08.873 --> 00:31:10.173 fathom in our meetings and, 00:31:10.693 --> 00:31:14.673 it's it's for me after the meeting here's what you need to do and if i haven't done it a day later. 00:31:15.193 --> 00:31:19.193 Hey, you didn't respond to Steve. But construction don't have that. 00:31:19.193 --> 00:31:23.923 And the volume of meetings, like we always used to joke that like, 00:31:23.923 --> 00:31:28.173 you go to a meeting, there's 20 people in there, like, oh, this meeting's costing like 30,000 pounds. 00:31:30.750 --> 00:31:35.163 So at least harness the data and whoever's writing minutes is a junior engineer. 00:31:35.163 --> 00:31:38.133 That's like, f this, 00:31:39.213 --> 00:31:44.403 what isn't a fire yeah yeah and even things like we used to get asked on the 00:31:44.403 --> 00:31:47.363 project be like oh and it'll be like the end of the project be like can you 00:31:47.363 --> 00:31:49.628 submit some best practice it's like, 00:31:50.453 --> 00:31:54.043 we've probably been running for seven years you reckon i'm gonna remember how 00:31:54.043 --> 00:31:59.363 we sped up rebar time four years ago like that could all be captured so it's, 00:31:59.897 --> 00:32:04.293 yeah putting that information in super useful automatic updating schedule obviously 00:32:04.293 --> 00:32:08.563 is super useful reducing friction let people do the things that actually add 00:32:08.563 --> 00:32:11.984 value rather than produce records on a on a laptop, 00:32:12.766 --> 00:32:15.081 I have a following question to that, but before we go there, 00:32:15.568 --> 00:32:19.527 as a quantity surveyor, did you capture your own lessons learned? 00:32:20.129 --> 00:32:24.379 Did you have a notebook? I had a notebook. How many entries in your notebook? 00:32:25.016 --> 00:32:28.805 I was one of those weird

people that had a page per day, so it was like a full page. 00:32:30.085 --> 00:32:33.335 That's not fun. I was hoping you'd be like, oh, two, because I was never good 00:32:33.335 --> 00:32:37.868 at this. But you were like, actually, you were a good example of what to do. 00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:43.805 Yeah, I'm not sure if you saw the quality of my notes, but the- Do you still have the notebook? 00:32:44.965 --> 00:32:48.443 Sorry? Do you still have that notebook? Do I still have it? 00:32:48.948 --> 00:32:53.915 Yeah. Somewhere. Because you need to digitize that and then sell it online to 00:32:53.915 --> 00:32:57.545 fellow quantity surveyors, being like five years of- Would you like the best 00:32:57.545 --> 00:32:59.356 practice from 2012? I'll buy it. 00:33:00.854 --> 00:33:04.058 How much would you pay for it? I don't know. I'll need to see it first. 00:33:05.178 --> 00:33:06.925 You can't read the book before you buy it. 00:33:09.146 --> 00:33:12.607 Back on Granola, Aphex Granola. 00:33:13.177 --> 00:33:16.415 So I talked to, or I'm going to have the folks from Hardline. 00:33:16.415 --> 00:33:18.768 Do you know these founders, Hardline the app? 00:33:19.597 --> 00:33:23.015 I've seen bits, but I don't know any sort of depth. 00:33:23.645 --> 00:33:30.175 They have a perspective on how to leverage some of these conversations, right? 00:33:30.175 --> 00:33:35.015 So they have a way of integrating to the phone. And so more conversations that 00:33:35.015 --> 00:33:39.225 are happening on site kind of go through hardline and produce kind of granola-like 00:33:39.225 --> 00:33:42.837 outputs, but kind of construct-oriented and kind of integrated workflows. 00:33:43.627 --> 00:33:50.223 I know Procore has a similar perspective on, hey, where is some of these data exchanges happening? 00:33:50.378 --> 00:33:53.665 Literally everyone wants to get to the data. And where's the data? 00:33:53.665 --> 00:33:59.075 Well, a lot of it's invoiced now. So I had the same question about if every 00:33:59.075 --> 00:34:03.645 tool has an agent and every agent wants access to your data, like. 00:34:05.254 --> 00:34:10.102 It's going to be an interesting, I don't know, do you have any predictions around where this goes? 00:34:10.288 --> 00:34:15.899 Like, do we get to a point where every meeting has like 15 robotic bots just 00:34:15.899 --> 00:34:17.038 listening and transcribing? 00:34:17.872 --> 00:34:22.649 Yeah, it's a good question because, yeah, there's, it's really difficult, 00:34:22.649 --> 00:34:29.501 right? Because like, MCP Connectors allow like customers to use their own AI and pull your own. 00:34:29.652 --> 00:34:33.939 But like, that's like a clean way of making sure that you're not approving every 00:34:33.939 --> 00:34:38.369 AI tool that you have to use, like use your right, you've got your guardrails 00:34:38.369 --> 00:34:40.621 in place, pull the data in, we can do stuff. 00:34:40.813 --> 00:34:43.860 Annoyingly, the whole construction industry is co-pilot, which is like, 00:34:44.707 --> 00:34:47.849 how many years since AI existed behind the end of it again? 00:34:51.086 --> 00:34:55.089 So the output's nowhere near as good. But if you've got all the agents running, 00:34:55.089 --> 00:35:00.099 because like we do complex projects, right? we're, if we, if we get to a defense 00:35:00.099 --> 00:35:02.669 project, we have to make sure that nothing AI is switched on, 00:35:02.669 --> 00:35:05.612 like it's closed circuit and everything else. 00:35:06.429 --> 00:35:10.879 But as soon as the most complicated and complex and difficult projects, 00:35:10.879 --> 00:35:12.819 the one that you don't want to have the tools on. 00:35:13.849 --> 00:35:16.649 I've always never really understood that. It's like, oh, okay. 00:35:16.649 --> 00:35:20.923 So like, don't we want like some version of like something helpful, but all right. Yeah. 00:35:21.109 --> 00:35:25.109 It's almost like you need the extension of the voice transcription AI coming 00:35:25.109 --> 00:35:30.489 to the apps, but it's still owned by the contractor. So the data don't leave their system. 00:35:31.058 --> 00:35:36.167 I have no idea if that exists or I just invented it, but yeah, it's really difficult. 00:35:36.805 --> 00:35:41.079 I do think there's, I feel like these kind of recorders fall into categories 00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:46.429 at this point. There's like the enterprise tech enabled voice transcription stuff. 00:35:46.809 --> 00:35:51.341 And then there's like the personal ones, like either the hardware ones. What's that? 00:35:51.817 --> 00:35:57.879 Whisper yeah like whisper flow yeah and then there's you know there's the physical 00:35:57.879 --> 00:36:02.357 devices like applaud or like pocket I think is another one. 00:36:03.757 --> 00:36:08.557 But I do, I think the delineation is, are individuals, because I think individuals 00:36:08.557 --> 00:36:10.996 are increasingly incentivized to own their data. 00:36:11.565 --> 00:36:17.997 And so like, I want to have my data, my meetings are access to. 00:36:18.417 --> 00:36:20.341 And so it's an interesting kind of equation. 00:36:20.878 --> 00:36:26.437 If you were to maybe think through, like, what does planning look like if we 00:36:26.437 --> 00:36:30.308 zoom out and kind of progress through the ages here a little bit? 00:36:31.225 --> 00:36:35.947 I think increasingly we're seeing like, agentic interactions. 00:36:35.947 --> 00:36:40.547 Like I've been playing with Instinct AI and Muse and GrokBot and they're all 00:36:40.547 --> 00:36:43.420 very powerful. Instinct AI specifically is unbelievable. 00:36:44.897 --> 00:36:52.228 And as our professional lives increasingly integrate some of these toolings, 00:36:52.955 --> 00:36:57.921 do you see a world where the humans are just the human in the loop? 00:36:58.246 --> 00:37:02.517 And there's like agents that are producing the kind of baseline mind and, 00:37:02.517 --> 00:37:05.142 and

the humans are just kind of layering context on top of it. 00:37:06.804 --> 00:37:10.807 You can say, I can quite easily say yes to that question. Say like that makes 00:37:10.807 --> 00:37:15.477 sense because the, the speed in which it can process, understand, 00:37:15.477 --> 00:37:19.890 compare, like suggests, like the humans can't beat that. 00:37:20.001 --> 00:37:24.327 Like you can't do it now, let alone in 10 years, you've also got robots who 00:37:24.327 --> 00:37:26.497 can, you can do whatever they need to on site. 00:37:27.272 --> 00:37:32.457 I think one of the biggest leaps is gonna be like trust in the insurance industry. 00:37:32.817 --> 00:37:38.007 How do you get to a point where you fully trust that this totally autonomous 00:37:38.007 --> 00:37:39.327 thing is just going to go and do? 00:37:39.327 --> 00:37:44.067 And who's taking the risk that it's like, do you end up just having a ton of 00:37:44.067 --> 00:37:49.177 humans checking because you can't have another bot check the bot or can you, 00:37:49.657 --> 00:37:52.101 probably still more accurate than the human checking it? 00:37:53.347 --> 00:37:58.135 I can imagine we get to a spot where the super level on site, 00:37:58.391 --> 00:38:01.618 because I think that's the hardest level to disrupt. 00:38:02.495 --> 00:38:06.118 I can imagine it gets to a spot where they aren't so reliant on, 00:38:06.118 --> 00:38:09.792 like if you think about a typical org chart, particularly on an infrastructure project, you've got, 00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:13.988 like project manager or project managers, all of these engineers, 00:38:13.988 --> 00:38:18.008 and then you've got supers and the engineers like running around like hedges, 00:38:18.008 --> 00:38:20.818 chickens, trying to make sure that the supers have everything they need to go 00:38:20.818 --> 00:38:22.473 and build whatever they need to tomorrow, 00:38:23.030 --> 00:38:26.958 yeah that can get so tight so that the requirement for those engineers who are 00:38:26.958 --> 00:38:31.848 in short supply anyway can get much smaller because a lot of that legwork can 00:38:31.848 --> 00:38:34.952 like disappear in in seconds you know, 00:38:35.733 --> 00:38:40.416 the super part you're then into the world of like safety, 00:38:41.021 --> 00:38:47.638 like the the the constructability like the subnetwork yeah yeah the interpersonal 00:38:47.638 --> 00:38:54.163 coordination between and that's the like the biggest leap and i'm sure there's something that 00:38:54.603 --> 00:38:57.938 like we'll laugh about this conversation in 20 years and be like geez what i, 00:38:58.808 --> 00:39:01.738 can't believe they were super you know what though but i'm not sure i think 00:39:01.738 --> 00:39:05.778 it will be there right be there i think you need the humans well i think you 00:39:05.778 --> 00:39:09.674 not only need the humans but i think we want the humans right like i, 00:39:10.628 --> 00:39:14.318 i think we've we've gotten to a point

where we think some of the stuff is so 00:39:14.318 --> 00:39:18.202 inevitable that We're just kind of like downstream, whatever happens. 00:39:19.348 --> 00:39:22.078 But in theory, like we're the ones kind of making the decisions. 00:39:22.078 --> 00:39:27.198 And so can we more like tactically put a position around like, 00:39:27.198 --> 00:39:28.948 this is what we think we want. 00:39:29.787 --> 00:39:33.799 You know, Peter Thiel had an interview the other day where he was asked. 00:39:34.999 --> 00:39:41.726 He was asked, like, they were talking about the percentage chance that humans would not survive. 00:39:42.103 --> 00:39:44.958 Whatever, like, maybe there would be some kind of AI uprising. 00:39:45.795 --> 00:39:49.643 And the interviewer was like, and that would be a bad thing, right? What's that? 00:39:50.068 --> 00:39:51.584 It's the one in ten chance we won't 00:39:51.584 --> 00:39:56.041 survive. Yeah, I forget what they were referencing, but it was there. 00:39:56.557 --> 00:40:00.156 And the interviewer asked Peter, and he was like, oh, that would be a bad thing, right? 00:40:00.598 --> 00:40:07.324 And Peter took about 30 seconds to think about whether or not humans going extinct 00:40:07.324 --> 00:40:10.390 would be a bad thing. I was like, whoa, hold on. 00:40:11.284 --> 00:40:15.664 I think maybe you're not one of them, but I am, and I'd like to survive as a 00:40:15.664 --> 00:40:18.864 species. He must have one of those reptilians people are talking about. 00:40:19.244 --> 00:40:23.177 Maybe. There might be some truth to that. I mean, he's a weird-looking dude. 00:40:24.388 --> 00:40:28.584 But I do think it is on us to put a stamp on what we think makes sense. 00:40:28.964 --> 00:40:31.844 And, you know, we talk about kind of arming the front lines, 00:40:31.844 --> 00:40:36.735 you know, helping the craftsmen kind of stay craftsmen and do the job. 00:40:37.745 --> 00:40:40.189 But at times, our tooling is kind of out of control. 00:40:41.978 --> 00:40:48.421 How does AFIX look at creating that balance? You're on the edge of maybe releasing, 00:40:49.084 --> 00:40:53.728 some agents in terms of their ability to kind of gather context and feed that back in the schedule. 00:40:55.664 --> 00:41:00.546 How do you see your role in trying to enable the next generation to come into construction? 00:41:01.596 --> 00:41:07.047 God, that's a good question. I think, um, I lull you in with the easy ones, Carlos. Yeah, you did. 00:41:07.510 --> 00:41:10.324 I feel like it's good to talk about Peter Thiel's South Park episode. 00:41:12.537 --> 00:41:17.084 I think like on the, the, the first part of the question, which is like towing 00:41:17.084 --> 00:41:20.744 the line of AI, because like some, some of these companies are going so far 00:41:20.744 --> 00:41:22.612 ahead. It's like, you have to dial it back. 00:41:23.035 --> 00:41:28.264 Yeah. Um, at the moment we're, we're in this spot where it's not scary. 00:41:28.264 --> 00:41:33.344 Like we're, we're writing your note for you we're pulling those notes together 00:41:33.344 --> 00:41:35.040 and writing a report for you, 00:41:35.628 --> 00:41:39.324 that with the meeting thing it's here's the things you thought you should do 00:41:39.324 --> 00:41:43.154 would you like it to be done rather than go and do because the scary thing would 00:41:43.154 --> 00:41:48.014 be you open up the schedule and like whoa what the hell and no even though we've 00:41:48.014 --> 00:41:49.520 done the things you said like, 00:41:50.124 --> 00:41:53.204 some of those decisions stack on top of each other or in a way that doesn't 00:41:53.204 --> 00:41:56.524 make sense you could change something six times and then that conflicts with 00:41:56.524 --> 00:41:59.330 another and like it's not necessarily that the, 00:42:00.044 --> 00:42:04.348 the outcome of the picture that you wanted so i think, 00:42:05.142 --> 00:42:10.924 it's it's super important that people feel in control because like when you, 00:42:11.584 --> 00:42:16.694 say i take over your browser it's pretty scary what it's doing for you and in 00:42:16.694 --> 00:42:21.853 construction like a largely risk averse industry, 00:42:22.557 --> 00:42:26.674 to lose that sense of control is you would be super uncomfortable because people 00:42:26.674 --> 00:42:28.444 are genuinely liable for safety. 00:42:29.664 --> 00:42:31.044 And loss and everything else that comes with it. 00:42:31.503 --> 00:42:40.501 So I think there's going to be very successful, measured uses of AI doing like tight things very well, 00:42:41.141 --> 00:42:48.784 rather than this like Oracle 20 years in the future type AI that's like literally doing everything. 00:42:49.204 --> 00:42:53.824 And it's basically just instructing the guys that are building it on the ground 00:42:54.184 --> 00:42:55.720 and then managing everything in between. 00:42:56.576 --> 00:43:01.522 Like it takes a while to, to change a process, let alone like cut the entire 00:43:01.862 --> 00:43:06.152 top management layer out and all the processes sit behind it and hugging this 00:43:06.152 --> 00:43:07.994 thing that you hope does a good job. 00:43:08.524 --> 00:43:13.502 So it's maybe I'm also, I'm from the construction industry, so maybe I'm a bit 00:43:13.502 --> 00:43:18.185 of a laggard then, but I'm finding, I'm finding it hard that we're going to go too far too quickly. 00:43:19.130 --> 00:43:22.456 Because we're constrained by tech or because we'll make the decisions? 00:43:24.498 --> 00:43:27.952 I think both. I think it will be, if you think chicken and egg, 00:43:27.952 --> 00:43:31.502 it'd be almost impossible to prove that sort of thing is trustworthy without, 00:43:32.102 --> 00:43:36.594 worrying it. And we don't like an error in construction. We like measured decisions. 00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:44.419 And I think I'd back the human angle that removing people from the process isn't the right way forward. 00:43:45.294 -->

00:43:49.862 If every industry did that, like maybe it's just Peter Thiel living on Mars, 00:43:49.862 --> 00:43:52.975 but I don't think that's so awesome. 00:43:53.843 --> 00:43:59.176 I mean i think if if the tesla full self-driving is any indicator, 00:43:59.913 --> 00:44:04.714 did you see the tesla last night i did see it yeah it flies now right waiting 00:44:04.714 --> 00:44:09.394 for that update on my model three yeah you can imagine like la traffic and suddenly 00:44:09.394 --> 00:44:13.864 all the cars rise and they're just yeah right yeah, 00:44:14.954 --> 00:44:19.904 but like if you look at a tesla driver on the road there's a good chance he's 00:44:19.904 --> 00:44:26.843 definitely not driving or looking out the window or doing what is supposed to be done. I'm not. 00:44:28.424 --> 00:44:32.264 It's been incredible to offload that thing. 00:44:32.664 --> 00:44:37.114 And it's safer statistically, right? 00:44:37.224 --> 00:44:40.604 So if you believe it's safer statistically, would you put your kids in it and 00:44:40.604 --> 00:44:43.608 then be like, okay, see you later? And the car drops them at school? No. 00:44:44.764 --> 00:44:50.161 But that's an irrational decision, right? Illogical decision. 00:44:50.710 --> 00:44:55.424 Which is supported by, I would say, like an emotional connection or emotional, 00:44:55.744 --> 00:45:00.280 right? There's like some non-logic part of your brain. And obviously, 00:45:00.501 --> 00:45:05.214 like, obviously, horrible thought, but if there was like a minor incident, you'd want to be there. 00:45:05.406 --> 00:45:10.119 Not just, well, that doesn't like deal with everything else. Yeah. 00:45:10.775 --> 00:45:14.804 But it's, it goes back to trust. And yeah. Yeah. 00:45:15.825 --> 00:45:19.954 I mean, I just, I think we're really going to struggle because I think, 00:45:20.374 --> 00:45:22.367 I mean, this is throughout time. 00:45:22.657 --> 00:45:28.604 I think you, you can ask the question of what is driving change and is it the 00:45:28.604 --> 00:45:30.143 availability of technology? 00:45:30.474 --> 00:45:33.017 Obviously the movement of capital has a role. 00:45:34.915 --> 00:45:38.125 Historically, the masses have never really had control, right? 00:45:38.875 --> 00:45:41.975 Whether you look at medieval times through the Victorian age, 00:45:42.275 --> 00:45:45.575 historically, the people don't have power. The power is kind of concentrated. 00:45:45.575 --> 00:45:51.091 And so I think in its own way and its own flavor, that is still true, right, today. 00:45:51.573 --> 00:45:58.995 And so how much ability do we have to say our version of what we think a healthy 00:45:58.995 --> 00:46:00.855 job site looks like is XYZ? 00:46:01.852 --> 00:46:05.295 We don't want, like, I've got three boys. and a little girl. 00:46:06.795 --> 00:46:11.415 My vision of their future isn't like, hey, congrats, you grew up and you did 00:46:11.415 --> 00:46:13.816 this thing. You get to go be a human in

the loop. 00:46:15.273 --> 00:46:20.325 That's not the future I want for them. And so I think it is on all of us in 00:46:20.325 --> 00:46:26.535 the industry to say, what kind of jobs do we want for our kids and how do we build towards that? 00:46:26.535 --> 00:46:30.750 And I do think there's a really healthy balance because especially in our industry, 00:46:31.406 --> 00:46:35.945 you still have a lot of people who aren't able to come home at a reasonable 00:46:35.945 --> 00:46:40.532 hour or are working weekends because there's so much more work there's so much, 00:46:41.162 --> 00:46:45.935 more there's so much inefficient work that drives people to have to do unreasonable 00:46:45.935 --> 00:46:52.464 things to get these projects across the line and so I think we're fortunate to be far away from, 00:46:53.073 --> 00:46:58.145 that kind of intersection where we have to navigate what really we want but 00:46:58.145 --> 00:47:00.878 I think we're going to get there at some point Yeah. 00:47:01.226 --> 00:47:05.725 Yeah. There's, there's gonna be, there's gonna be huge gains and we're seeing 00:47:05.725 --> 00:47:10.745 them already. Like it's like, if we're, we're all, we're all doing twice as 00:47:10.745 --> 00:47:14.047 much as we were literally three years ago. And like, 00:47:14.848 --> 00:47:19.840 Laptop based jobs for sure. I think it's definitely the, like, 00:47:20.235 --> 00:47:21.128 what would you want your kids doing? 00:47:21.128 --> 00:47:25.978 Like if your job has no real accountability or responsibility, 00:47:25.978 --> 00:47:31.768 because like you're just feeding this thing that is responsible for all, like it's not. 00:47:32.756 --> 00:47:37.127 I don't know how you, it's not a drone work like this. Yeah. 00:47:37.341 --> 00:47:42.408 Yeah it's it's really strange but i would absolutely back construction to be 00:47:42.408 --> 00:47:46.868 construction and that slow adoption of tech reputation will come back to be a. 00:47:50.718 --> 00:47:54.978 At the end of the day i like this well i know you're you're moving on over to 00:47:54.978 --> 00:47:58.798 this side of the pond in the next few months maybe at some point we get a manchester 00:47:58.798 --> 00:48:00.858 united game together where do we go 00:48:01.218 --> 00:48:05.840 and find carlos and apex you guys on linkedin what's where do you want to point people to, 00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.738 yeah for sure and yes we'll definitely uh go catch a man united game so um if 00:48:10.738 --> 00:48:15.998 anyone like anyone resonate with a lot of what we were talking about today apex, 00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:19.166 check out our website drop your message on linkedin, 00:48:19.787 --> 00:48:23.658 and i don't know if show notes have like email addresses but like you can definitely 00:48:23.658 --> 00:48:25.377 find me on linkedin if you need, 00:48:25.998 --> 00:48:30.158 more than happy to chat we work with teams globally but we're now hard launching 00:48:30.158 --> 00:48:35.058 in north america we've opened an office east coast and I'm personally moving 00:48:35.058 --> 00:48:37.388 the family over in January to help build out the team. 00:48:37.388 --> 00:48:42.478 So, looking forward to being in the middle of North American sports as well, which would be good fun. 00:48:43.138 --> 00:48:46.178 There we go. I mean, because where else would you rather be in January than 00:48:46.578 --> 00:48:47.970 Northern North America? 00:48:49.518 --> 00:48:52.578 Don't tell the wife. She visited in July, so that was her. 00:48:54.038 --> 00:48:59.418 Yeah, what a rug pull that was. Luckily, she skis, but she can't ski on a Monday morning. 00:49:00.858 --> 00:49:03.318 The Amp is great, though. That's one of my favorite ski spots. 00:49:03.874 --> 00:49:08.358 That's what we've actually lined up so I might ask you for some tips there on 00:49:08.358 --> 00:49:15.035 a way to go well good stuff, well Carlos thanks for your time nice one, cheers Stephen see ya.