บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep. 64 - Most GC Innovation Dies After One Job. This One Didn't.

which is more project-based work, And then now you obviously on the, 00:04:13.958 --> 00:04:17.844 you know, manufacturing and product side, like how is that kind of navigating that tension been? 00:04:18.379 --> 00:04:21.851 Yeah. And that's a great question because there is, it is fundamentally different 00:04:21.851 --> 00:04:23.441 product versus a project. 00:04:23.441 --> 00:04:27.601 And we are still learning that. I mean, we're still trying to figure out and 00:04:27.601 --> 00:04:32.441 navigate that as we're scaling up and figuring out how we, how we come to that. 00:04:32.441 --> 00:04:36.171 I think there's other people who come to, to construction from a product platform 00:04:36.171 --> 00:04:40.811 basis. And so they have a better understanding of that, but they maybe don't 00:04:40.811 --> 00:04:43.019 understand the GC world quite as much. 00:04:43.233 --> 00:04:46.471 We're coming at it from the opposite angle. We really understand the GC world 00:04:46.471 --> 00:04:48.765 really well. That's where we've lived for our careers. 00:04:48.958 --> 00:04:51.941 The product world, we're starting to figure out. And so we're coming at it from 00:04:51.941 --> 00:04:56.543 a different angle, but still probably novices on that. How do you really productize it? 00:04:56.752 --> 00:05:00.048 An awareness of it for sure, but we're learning. 00:05:00.657 --> 00:05:04.211 Sponsor break. If you spend any time running a project, you know the answer 00:05:04.211 --> 00:05:06.943 is almost always sitting in the contract document somewhere. 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:13.091 Catch is that it's almost never in one document. It's split across the contract, 00:05:13.091 --> 00:05:16.711 the specs, and some flow down clause three layers deep that nobody connects 00:05:16.711 --> 00:05:18.511 until it's already cost money. 00:05:18.691 --> 00:05:22.561 That's the whole premise behind Document Crunch. That risk doesn't live inside 00:05:22.561 --> 00:05:25.257 any single document. It lives in the gaps between them. 00:05:25.512 --> 00:05:30.005 And most teams never look at all of them together until they're standing in a dispute. 00:05:30.696 --> 00:05:35.261 The average construction dispute in the U.S. now runs about $60 million. 00:05:35.956 --> 00:05:38.324 According to Arcadis. It's a lot of money. 00:05:38.731 --> 00:05:42.701 And the root cause they point to isn't fraud or bad intent. It's people not 00:05:42.701 --> 00:05:44.315 fully understanding what they agreed to. 00:05:44.541 --> 00:05:47.409 So Document Crunch builds a platform around closing that gap. 00:05:47.618 --> 00:05:53.226 Crunch AI reads the documents, surfaces the risks, and it cites the exact page and clause that's big. 00:05:53.574 --> 00:05:57.401 So you're not just taking its word for it. Project Assist lets your team act 00:05:57.401 --> 00:06:00.651 on it, ask questions across the entire project document set, 00:06:00.651 --> 00:06:05.033 hand draft your submitals, notices, and

RFIs right from the chat window. 00:06:05.254 --> 00:06:09.641 And the whole thing runs on your own company standards. The office and the field 00:06:09.641 --> 00:06:13.025 are working off the same playbook for bid through closeout. 00:06:13.315 --> 00:06:18.321 No disconnects. It's live now across the U.S. and Canada. Go to documentcrunch.com 00:06:18.321 --> 00:06:21.680 forward slash construction conversations and book a demo. 00:06:22.133 --> 00:06:27.361 So Kent, as I didn't intro you as a guest host, but I appreciate you taking 00:06:27.361 --> 00:06:29.261 the time to come on and guest host this. 00:06:29.261 --> 00:06:35.931 So as you think through Kent, there's some echoes and some rhyme to your early 00:06:35.931 --> 00:06:39.063 past, early history with RQ and Ecolite. 00:06:39.574 --> 00:06:44.020 Where there was a little bit of an offshoot of kind of a panelized option, 00:06:44.340 --> 00:06:46.991 pre-tab option for a GC out in San Diego. 00:06:46.991 --> 00:06:50.141 So what have you gotten over that trauma of that experience? 00:06:50.141 --> 00:06:52.280 What was your experience like? 00:06:52.663 --> 00:06:56.881 I think I have just based on how hard it was to like dredge up some of the memories 00:06:56.881 --> 00:07:01.171 as I was thinking about, Matt, like TimberQuest and like some of it sounded 00:07:01.171 --> 00:07:05.286 familiar. So yeah, Ecolite Manufacturing, we got to go back to like 08, 09. 00:07:05.618 --> 00:07:09.561 It was a precast concrete wall company that RQ Construction, 00:07:09.561 --> 00:07:14.091 a regional general contractor down in San Diego doing primarily Department of Defense work. 00:07:14.498 --> 00:07:18.691 Ultimately, I think I ended up acquiring. And so it was, I'm assuming, 00:07:18.691 --> 00:07:22.042 Matt, like a very similar concept, right? It was taking a tilt-up construction, 00:07:22.309 --> 00:07:25.911 but moving it off-site into a manufacturing facility. We would have these, 00:07:26.463 --> 00:07:30.072 built out like steel you know steel frames with a little uh metal lath on the 00:07:30.072 --> 00:07:33.512 front of it and then two inches of self-consolidating concrete that you could 00:07:33.512 --> 00:07:37.752 then put like forms and molds on the beds you know you took the tables up pick 00:07:37.752 --> 00:07:39.963 them put them on a frame ship them to the job site, 00:07:40.465 --> 00:07:42.622 and it was a wild wild time, 00:07:43.403 --> 00:07:49.062 so man one of our so we so i was at our key construction as a pe and and and 00:07:49.062 --> 00:07:53.255 kent was working on the eco light side and now we were building a the navy seabuse, 00:07:53.729 --> 00:07:57.171 museum in port wainimi california and it was. 00:07:58.837 --> 00:08:02.672 It was it was a collaboration and it was so my first job, 00:08:03.152 --> 00:08:08.252 on site it was kind of kent's first job kind of i don't know coordinating the 00:08:08.252 --> 00:08:12.312 the delivery of these panels and i

mean from the outside looking in kent all 00:08:12.312 --> 00:08:17.212 success right we like the job finished ahead ahead that was was that one of the few, 00:08:17.772 --> 00:08:21.652 successes the building is still standing you know 50 years later so that's That's a win. 00:08:23.032 --> 00:08:27.395 What are, yeah, so, you know, maybe to take this back to your story, Matt, 00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:32.532 I think it's interesting that also, as you look at this kind of category of 00:08:32.532 --> 00:08:38.088 innovation into products, that you guys went in the direction of mass timber. 00:08:38.308 --> 00:08:43.012 And I think one of the things I noticed as we talked was you didn't try to maybe 00:08:43.012 --> 00:08:45.222 over engineer the solution of the product. 00:08:45.530 --> 00:08:50.092 And so there's an understanding of what your kind of MVP looked like and what 00:08:50.092 --> 00:08:52.552 needed to say, on-site versus off-site. 00:08:52.552 --> 00:08:58.612 How did you kind of work through what that balance looked like in terms of what 00:08:58.612 --> 00:09:00.598 Tim Request's initial product to market looked like? 00:09:00.999 --> 00:09:04.592 Yeah, well, I think, you know, it comes back to constraints. 00:09:04.592 --> 00:09:09.062 Like, what are your constraints that you're dealing with and how can that spur 00:09:09.062 --> 00:09:13.882 creativity? So when we started, you know, we knew that there was an open checkbook 00:09:13.882 --> 00:09:18.028 for $10 million to start a company, right? So we needed to make sure that it was... 00:09:18.550 --> 00:09:21.691 You know, that we could test it small and then scale up. 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:25.960 And so when we looked at mass timber, you know, the magic of mass timber is 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:27.910 that there's this high precision, right? 00:09:28.230 --> 00:09:32.920 You can get the CNC machines will do, you know, 16th inch tolerance and that 00:09:32.920 --> 00:09:36.570 they do that every day. And so you can just order from mass timber manufacturer, 00:09:36.570 --> 00:09:39.683 this, this really highly precision machined item. Right. 00:09:39.957 --> 00:09:43.880 And so then when you get that, well, you're just following the outline, 00:09:43.880 --> 00:09:48.154 right it's already to the right size the right shape that sort of thing so 00:09:48.414 --> 00:09:52.510 so we really look at is that that the smart component was that that mass timber 00:09:52.510 --> 00:09:55.790 component that was highly machined now we're adding layers to it right we're adding 00:09:56.090 --> 00:09:59.350 layers of plywood and weather barrier and insulation and siding but we're kind 00:09:59.350 --> 00:10:03.790 of following the outline and and we're doing that not with you know robots arms 00:10:03.790 --> 00:10:05.170 or anything like that it's 00:10:05.490 --> 00:10:09.555 it's hand tools it's it's nail guns and screw guns and so now we can, 00:10:10.025 --> 00:10:14.150 now we can iterate right if we need to to change the way we're attaching something Well, that's easy. 00:10:14.150 --> 00:10:18.227 That's that that that's simple to do. We're not locked into a certain ecosystem. 00:10:18.419 --> 00:10:19.864 We're working off the tables. 00:10:20.068 --> 00:10:24.060 It's it's it's pretty low tech, but we think it's pretty smart the way it is 00:10:24.060 --> 00:10:28.690 because it's just so easy to scale, easy to train people. 00:10:29.170 --> 00:10:34.200 And, you know, again, we're not we're not locking into a big giant capital investment 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:38.390 with a with a, you know, a robot arm that, you know, we're going to need to. 00:10:38.790 --> 00:10:43.260 A banded think of the marketing you're missing out on by not having like a humanoid 00:10:43.260 --> 00:10:48.190 like in picture i know right pushing up a panel right like i feel like i that 00:10:48.190 --> 00:10:52.510 would immediately get like soft bank investment yeah exactly the facility yeah. 00:10:53.490 --> 00:10:57.190 But but you look at tesla and you know they they tried to you know model three 00:10:57.190 --> 00:11:00.480 they try to automate the whole line they ripped a bunch of it out and restarted 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.410 right because they hadn't figured out the process yet and i think we're, 00:11:04.870 --> 00:11:08.310 we're humble enough to say hey we got to figure out the process before we automate 00:11:08.310 --> 00:11:09.650 Do we do we want to automate? 00:11:09.650 --> 00:11:13.116 Sure. Right. But but let's figure out that process and get it under, 00:11:13.331 --> 00:11:16.542 you know, get our feet under us before we start thinking about that. 00:11:17.461 --> 00:11:21.711 So that's a really key point, which is before you automate anything, 00:11:21.711 --> 00:11:26.301 it's going back to have a work stream this to understand the base process well 00:11:26.301 --> 00:11:30.400 enough to understand where the value is added, where there's friction. That's huge. 00:11:31.333 --> 00:11:38.551 And are you hiring, is this like Excel self-perform in this manufacturing environment 00:11:38.551 --> 00:11:41.477 or do you have, what is your manufacturing setup like? 00:11:41.841 --> 00:11:45.251 Well, so what we've got is, so when we first started, and again, 00:11:45.251 --> 00:11:49.831 to that kind of scaling aspect of it, we actually prefabricated on site. 00:11:49.831 --> 00:11:52.881 So we didn't have a factory, like the first two projects, we were actually just 00:11:52.881 --> 00:11:57.981 in the basketball court adjacent to the project site, prefabricating while we 00:11:57.981 --> 00:11:59.361 were building the foundations, right? 00:11:59.361 --> 00:12:04.591 So that's how we started. And that was using field union carpenters to do that, 00:12:04.591 --> 00:12:09.611 that were part of the XL company. It's our sister company, Elevated. 00:12:09.611 --> 00:12:12.372 That's the carpentry company. So they were doing

that. 00:12:12.894 --> 00:12:16.528 Right now, we've got a 40,000 square foot factory in Stockton. 00:12:16.754 --> 00:12:20.868 We've got a unionized workforce, but it's under the carpenters union, 00:12:21.030 --> 00:12:24.200 but they're production workers. So it's not field carpenters. 00:12:24.821 --> 00:12:26.061 It's a different wage scale. 00:12:26.781 --> 00:12:31.411 It's a different skill set. And so we're really using that labor most effectively 00:12:31.411 --> 00:12:34.071 to kind of leverage what the field carpenters can do. 00:12:34.071 --> 00:12:38.501 So there's certainly more training because we're bringing people in off the 00:12:38.501 --> 00:12:41.041 street, right? They haven't gone through the union training. 00:12:41.041 --> 00:12:45.339 They haven't gone through apprenticeship. They're doing all the training in our facility. 00:12:46.258 --> 00:12:50.755 So I think to go back a little bit, Kent, go ahead. Do you have something? 00:12:51.331 --> 00:12:57.021 You go. I'll jump in at any point here. I was just going to say so you're sitting 00:12:57.381 --> 00:13:03.971 in a pre-con director seat at Excel and you're like we've got so many projects 00:13:03.971 --> 00:13:05.601 what I need is another job. 00:13:07.301 --> 00:13:08.471 What was the evolution of this? 00:13:08.471 --> 00:13:10.291 Because you essentially took 00:13:10.291 --> 00:13:14.007 this on on the side this became kind of a side quest for you for a bet, 00:13:14.553 --> 00:13:18.605 And, and then obviously it's, it's become much, much more, but what, 00:13:18.907 --> 00:13:23.726 what in your history, go back to your childhood needed, what kind of trauma 00:13:23.726 --> 00:13:25.699 led you to want to take on so much work? 00:13:26.065 --> 00:13:30.093 Yeah. So, I mean, I was that nerdy kid who was reading books about, 00:13:30.262 --> 00:13:34.782 you know, different construction things and like anything that was panelized or prefabricated. 00:13:35.066 --> 00:13:38.856 That was always appealing. Like I could go back to my childhood bedroom and 00:13:38.856 --> 00:13:41.765 there's probably still dog ear, you know, books about, about, 00:13:41.881 --> 00:13:45.876 you know, how, how, you know, people doing off grid stuff or straw bale or anything 00:13:45.876 --> 00:13:49.276 like that. Like, um, and so that's just always been an interest of mine. 00:13:49.936 --> 00:13:56.216 And so that sort of orientation towards prefabrication has always been part of what drove me. 00:13:56.536 --> 00:14:03.113 But it's really challenging to incorporate prefabrication into a project. 00:14:04.256 --> 00:14:07.296 There's components that you can bring in, right? You can bring in, 00:14:07.756 --> 00:14:10.806 I'm going to do a curtain wall system that's unitized. 00:14:10.806 --> 00:14:14.236 I'm going to bring in a bathroom pod, right? But but kind of a holistic approach 00:14:14.236 --> 00:14:15.846 to it is really challenging. 00:14:15.846 --> 00:14:20.906 And it's very hard to get all the benefits of prefabrication if you're not looking 00:14:20.906 --> 00:14:24.046 at that holistic because, yeah, you can bring in bathroom pods and that's great. 00:14:24.046 --> 00:14:26.776 But, you know, if you're still drywalling the rest of the building the same 00:14:26.776 --> 00:14:29.676 way, if you're still building out your kids, are you really scathing on the 00:14:29.676 --> 00:14:31.636 schedule? Well, maybe not. 00:14:31.976 --> 00:14:36.676 And so I've always felt like we need to have a holistic approach to it as a 00:14:36.676 --> 00:14:40.731 whole building systems level approach rather than a component level approach 00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:43.596 if we want to get the full benefits of prefabrication. 00:14:43.596 --> 00:14:47.296 And so originally the thought was, okay, if we just bring enough components 00:14:47.296 --> 00:14:50.013 together, then we'll kind of have that holistic approach. And, 00:14:50.245 --> 00:14:53.536 and, and that's probably still an option that's out there that, 00:14:53.536 --> 00:14:55.696 that, that, that people smarter than me can do. 00:14:56.336 --> 00:14:59.787 But I always felt like, okay, if we can start from a clean sheet of paper and, 00:15:00.077 --> 00:15:05.116 and design something for prefab from the ground up, um, design it to be really 00:15:05.116 --> 00:15:09.030 rapidly assembled. Right. And that's, that's built into the DNA from day one. 00:15:09.268 --> 00:15:10.582 That would make a big difference. Yeah. 00:15:11.932 --> 00:15:14.745 I got, well, two things there, Matt. One, can you send me some of those books? 00:15:14.745 --> 00:15:17.625 Cause my kid won't stop reading like Pokemon and Leo books. 00:15:17.985 --> 00:15:20.965 So if I could get him on the prefab train now, that could help him down the road. 00:15:21.971 --> 00:15:24.915 But the second thing, like you hit on a really interesting point there around 00:15:24.915 --> 00:15:28.905 like almost like the limits of prefabrication or like where some of those efficiency 00:15:28.905 --> 00:15:31.205 gains start to bump up against a wall. 00:15:31.205 --> 00:15:34.805 And this applies not just for prefab, but any, like I'm hearing the sales pitch 00:15:34.805 --> 00:15:36.785 from the Ecolite days as we talk about this, right? 00:15:36.785 --> 00:15:40.855 About like all the reasons why you're gonna be saving money on like wages and 00:15:40.855 --> 00:15:44.725 on time on site and on like footprints and all of these things. 00:15:44.725 --> 00:15:48.049 And it doesn't take much for each of those efficiencies to get chiseled away. 00:15:48.275 --> 00:15:51.865 And all of a sudden, like the benefits that were supposed to come from prefabrication 00:15:51.865 --> 00:15:54.951 or from just from any batch manufacturing process, right? 00:15:55.415 --> 00:15:57.815 It's quickly like evaporated. And then all of a sudden you're actually, 00:15:57.815 --> 00:15:59.085 it's actually been worse because

00:15:59.405 --> 00:16:01.593 you're constrained or you're dealing with some of those limitations. 00:16:01.872 --> 00:16:05.453 So as you guys have scaled and grown, like what are some of those areas where, 00:16:06.285 --> 00:16:07.549 either A, where you've seen like. 00:16:09.096 --> 00:16:13.336 You know some of those those like the dream has not matched reality or or then 00:16:13.336 --> 00:16:16.186 like with it like what are the processes you put in place to ensure that like 00:16:16.395 --> 00:16:20.016 when you are going into a job and and trying to pitch on cost savings or pitch 00:16:20.016 --> 00:16:22.958 on on time to value like you're able to make sure that you actually deliver, 00:16:23.504 --> 00:16:26.676 yeah so i i think that what we've found is that. 00:16:27.534 --> 00:16:31.596 The the product as it evolves you know there's there's you know we're starting from, 00:16:32.356 --> 00:16:36.916 a a position where our costs probably in between where volumetric modular is, 00:16:37.616 --> 00:16:41.466 and where we're kind of standard construction is like we're less than standard 00:16:41.466 --> 00:16:45.116 construction more than volumetric modular we're in that range we think it's 00:16:45.116 --> 00:16:49.426 a much better product than than either of those but but we're in that cost range 00:16:49.426 --> 00:16:50.616 but we still want to drive 00:16:51.056 --> 00:16:54.726 costs down from there and so what we're looking at is what can we build more 00:16:54.726 --> 00:16:58.346 into our system and again we started in small right so we were really focusing 00:16:58.346 --> 00:17:02.036 on structure and skin as, as part of the package, but 00:17:02.436 --> 00:17:07.036 MEP was fairly conventional finishes, um, were fairly conventional, you know? 00:17:07.036 --> 00:17:11.166 And so we're looking at how can we build more of those things into our system? 00:17:11.166 --> 00:17:15.556 How can we, how can we take prefab electrical, which right now is just in our walls. 00:17:15.936 --> 00:17:19.206 Let's put it in our roof chases as well. Like how, how can we find the right 00:17:19.206 --> 00:17:22.076 quick connectors that'll, that'll really bring that system together? 00:17:22.476 --> 00:17:26.496 You know, so that's, that's really where we're focusing on is taking our kind 00:17:26.496 --> 00:17:32.516 of package of the product and beefing it up so that we can really build more 00:17:32.516 --> 00:17:34.316 prefab into the assembly. 00:17:34.316 --> 00:17:39.196 But again, we're a little bit of a hybrid. We're not as finished as modular 00:17:39.196 --> 00:17:41.273 construction, volumetric modular. 00:17:41.383 --> 00:17:43.299 There's more stuff that happens on site. 00:17:43.438 --> 00:17:46.286 So there'll always be a little bit of a healthy tension of what makes sense 00:17:46.286 --> 00:17:49.279 to be done on site and what makes sense to be done in the factory. 00:17:50.134 --> 00:17:53.205 Well, and how much of that

is determined by, you know, you've got some project 00:17:53.205 --> 00:17:58.011 type focus, right? So your initial project was a school, I believe, yes? 00:17:58.371 --> 00:18:02.695 Yeah, and our whole business is really built around right now. 00:18:02.695 --> 00:18:07.475 It's K-12 schools is the core market, and we've got the pre-approved design 00:18:07.475 --> 00:18:12.835 for that market. And so that's really where we're starting, and I think we can grow beyond that. 00:18:13.295 --> 00:18:17.213 But that's a core focus of our business is that K-12 market. 00:18:18.041 --> 00:18:22.654 Yeah. Well, I think having that focus and clarity, I think is obviously helpful. 00:18:22.973 --> 00:18:27.635 When you think back to why this got off the ground, and I keep taking back here 00:18:27.635 --> 00:18:33.065 because I was in a couple different large GC environments, and I feel like so 00:18:33.065 --> 00:18:37.365 often I had ideas that didn't get off the ground. So maybe this is just like notes for myself. 00:18:38.167 --> 00:18:42.600 But like, when you think about why this got off the ground, what was the biggest 00:18:42.600 --> 00:18:48.000 lever that really the executive staff responded to? Was it this idea of like 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.137 sustainability and mass timber? 00:18:50.503 --> 00:18:57.150 Was it a net new service offering? Was it diversification, like a value delivery for owners? 00:18:57.150 --> 00:19:01.840 What do you think really tickled the fancy? You know, I think there's a couple 00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:06.400 things. I mean, it was a fairly low investment. And so the way we structured 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.080 it is to develop the design. 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.373 We partnered with an architect, ADIS, and structural engineer, Daedalus. 00:19:13.056 --> 00:19:18.910 And really, we came to it, and each party brought some funding to the table for that. 00:19:18.910 --> 00:19:23.260 And so we were really partnered with them. So that our investment was, 00:19:23.260 --> 00:19:28.145 you know, low six figures. I mean, it wasn't a huge amount of money. 00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:30.655 So it was relatively modest to get into. 00:19:31.096 --> 00:19:35.560 It was really, you know, leveraging our other business units because, 00:19:35.560 --> 00:19:39.500 you know, we have a concrete company and we have a rough carpentry company, 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:42.286 right? So this fit in with that. That wasn't competing with it. 00:19:42.536 --> 00:19:47.270 It was really driving business to those businesses as well. And so I think that 00:19:47.270 --> 00:19:48.800 was attractive to them as well. 00:19:49.560 --> 00:19:54.480 You know, Excel had always been and is continues to this day to be a leader 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:56.400 in, you know, BIM and VDC. 00:19:56.860 --> 00:20:00.970 And so leveraging some of those capabilities from a technical standpoint, 00:20:00.970 --> 00:20:02.710 you know, it all kind of fit together. 00:20:02.710 --> 00:20:06.390 And so I think having something that was, you know, really accretive to the 00:20:06.390 --> 00:20:12.127 business as a whole and really fit in with it was probably what what helped sell us internally. 00:20:13.095 --> 00:20:18.210 So maybe take me through the first project. So you kind of get through this 00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:21.740 kind of design and programming phase, you get approved, you get, 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:26.730 an input of a lead on a project that has a really tight schedule or kind of 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:30.553 only Timber Quest or the product's name at the time can respond to it. 00:20:31.386 --> 00:20:34.118 Were you surprised that you were able to kind of do the job, 00:20:34.118 --> 00:20:36.163 like get it done and successfully? 00:20:36.477 --> 00:20:39.988 Yeah, well, I'll tell you the story on that one. So, you know, 00:20:39.988 --> 00:20:46.179 we were, we had come together with Aedas and Daedalus. We developed this pre-checked design. 00:20:46.371 --> 00:20:49.610 It had been submitted to the state for approval, hadn't been approved yet. 00:20:49.831 --> 00:20:51.329 And we were soft selling the market. 00:20:51.625 --> 00:20:56.598 And so one of the previous clients from Excel, who they'd done some great work 00:20:56.598 --> 00:21:00.804 with, reached out and said, hey, it's COVID time, right? This is 21. 00:21:00.938 --> 00:21:04.258 One it's COVID time you know our kindergarten our preschool it can't be in the 00:21:04.258 --> 00:21:08.448 same place anymore so we need to have some buildings and I don't really want 00:21:08.448 --> 00:21:11.818 to this private school I don't really want to bring in portables it's not really 00:21:11.818 --> 00:21:15.258 great look you know can can you guys do anything so we came in and we we, 00:21:16.218 --> 00:21:19.278 we gave them our pitch but we didn't really quite understand the scope or the 00:21:19.278 --> 00:21:20.518 timing when we were pitching them 00:21:20.938 --> 00:21:24.268 and they said okay that's great you know we need something for the this summer 00:21:24.268 --> 00:21:26.188 and so it's March and so we're like okay so 00:21:26.501 --> 00:21:31.078 so next summer that gives us like of a year ahead way to to get going and and 00:21:31.078 --> 00:21:34.348 and figure things things out we'll get approvals and we can get our shop drawings 00:21:34.348 --> 00:21:39.802 done and and they said no no not not next summer this summer like three months from now and so. 00:21:41.038 --> 00:21:46.068 So that was a bit of a surprise and so my business partner steve the the senior 00:21:46.068 --> 00:21:49.138 vp he said you know we went away he said matt, 00:21:49.858 --> 00:21:52.988 you know we need to stay faced on this one like we said we could do something 00:21:52.988 --> 00:21:56.638 like we need to tell them what we can do like even if we can't do it in their time frame. 00:21:56.638 --> 00:21:59.488 We need to tell them.

So we sent them a proposal, said, hey, 00:21:59.488 --> 00:22:03.797 if you want something, we can complete by September 15th, not August 15th, September 15th. 00:22:04.081 --> 00:22:06.906 You know, we need to know by this date, you know, sign below. 00:22:07.133 --> 00:22:11.567 And so we went away. We thought it was dead. I went on vacation. 00:22:12.078 --> 00:22:15.998 It's April 1st. Steve texts me and he says, Matt, check your email. 00:22:16.678 --> 00:22:18.520 We got a, 00:22:19.582 --> 00:22:23.602 It's April 1st. Steve, that's not his personality. Is he just messing with me? 00:22:23.852 --> 00:22:25.325 And so, no, sure enough, open it up. 00:22:25.705 --> 00:22:29.685 April 1st, we need to break ground June 15th in order to meet the schedule. 00:22:29.685 --> 00:22:31.765 So we rally the troops, right? 00:22:32.845 --> 00:22:36.326 We're calling the surveyor, get out there, get that surveyed, 00:22:36.576 --> 00:22:37.665 calling the design team. 00:22:38.085 --> 00:22:41.755 We have six weeks to submit for permit. But, you know, I go out, 00:22:41.755 --> 00:22:45.222 I'm on vacation, I go to Best Buy and buy two monitors, because I'm like, 00:22:45.413 --> 00:22:46.535 who's going to do these shop drawings? 00:22:46.535 --> 00:22:49.915 I'm the only one who's like, it's like, head into this system, 00:22:49.915 --> 00:22:53.598 like, and we don't have time to train somebody else on how to how what I'm thinking, 00:22:53.848 --> 00:22:56.235 okay, I'm just going to blue beam these shop drawings up, right? 00:22:56.235 --> 00:22:59.125 And so, like, that's, that's really how we approached it. We, 00:22:59.445 --> 00:23:03.535 we hired someone to do the modeling for the timber components, 00:23:03.535 --> 00:23:06.465 and then all kind of all the other layers I modeled myself. 00:23:07.125 --> 00:23:10.345 But you know it was it was a scramble and so we broke ground we broke ground 00:23:10.345 --> 00:23:12.145 june 15th right after school. 00:23:12.825 --> 00:23:18.863 Schools ended we were fabricating on site so we we were able to get the timber procured 00:23:19.124 --> 00:23:21.965 kolesnikov who's up in british columbia they were just starting up their mass 00:23:21.965 --> 00:23:26.545 timber business so even though this is a small 4 000 square foot school it was 00:23:26.545 --> 00:23:29.875 you know attractive to them because it was you know they were just starting 00:23:29.875 --> 00:23:31.150 up they were looking for business 00:23:31.434 --> 00:23:33.409 they did a great job for us and so 00:23:33.833 --> 00:23:40.315 we broke ground we're fabricating on the you know the the blacktop pavement 00:23:40.315 --> 00:23:42.525 the basketball court right next to the job, 00:23:43.025 --> 00:23:46.955 you know it's it's it's crazy like what are we doing and so i was i was really 00:23:46.955 --> 00:23:51.705 worried because now now we're getting to okay the panels have been stacked up ready to go, 00:23:52.225 --> 00:23:56.505 we're going to start erecting it and cranes coming out and like what what happens 00:23:56.505 --> 00:24:00.145 if these pieces don't fit like what that's you know am i gonna get fired like 00:24:00.145 --> 00:24:02.305 what's gonna happen this this would be a disaster. 00:24:02.305 --> 00:24:04.413 So I'm like, okay, I'm not going to get in the way out. 00:24:04.778 --> 00:24:10.213 Yeah, right? I mean, that's the option is that you just kind of slow down and try to fix it. 00:24:10.945 --> 00:24:13.991 And so I'm, I'm like, and this is again, it's COVID time, right? 00:24:13.991 --> 00:24:17.401 This is when people are quoting you like, you know, 17 years to get a piece 00:24:17.401 --> 00:24:20.061 of foam. Like we're somehow we procure all this stuff. We get it, 00:24:20.461 --> 00:24:21.771 we get, we get it all pulled together. 00:24:22.353 --> 00:24:25.901 And our superintendent on site was fantastic. So I'm like, I'm not going to 00:24:25.901 --> 00:24:28.351 get in his way. I'm just going to, I'm going to sit at home, 00:24:28.351 --> 00:24:31.381 but we've got cameras. Right. So, so I'm, I'm watching the progress. 00:24:31.381 --> 00:24:34.851 And so it's day one goes by and I'm like, I didn't get any phone calls. 00:24:34.851 --> 00:24:37.256 He didn't call me. Like he didn't say that nothing was fitting. 00:24:37.831 --> 00:24:42.951 So I call him BK what's happening. Oh, it's good. we got good day today okay, 00:24:43.630 --> 00:24:48.461 next day two days later right or next day what bk what's happening oh yeah now 00:24:48.461 --> 00:24:51.159 now it's starting to come into the camera frame i can see the progress right 00:24:51.507 --> 00:24:55.121 we'd planned for two weeks for his activity third day bk what. 00:24:56.081 --> 00:24:59.823 Why did why did the crane leave well matt we're done it's it's it's up it's erected, 00:25:00.721 --> 00:25:03.361 we had two weeks for that oh yeah he's like yeah it only took us three days 00:25:03.361 --> 00:25:08.440 so so that was kind of the moment that we said like oh yeah this actually works this fit, 00:25:08.992 --> 00:25:13.631 and so i told you that we are the piece of paper said september 15th well about 00:25:13.631 --> 00:25:17.678 this time i started talking to mike the the owner's rep i said mike, 00:25:18.408 --> 00:25:21.555 you know, so, so what are you going to do with the kids those first four weeks 00:25:21.555 --> 00:25:24.515 of school? I said, well, they're going to their classroom. I'm like, 00:25:24.515 --> 00:25:27.215 Mike, we're not going to be done. And he said, oh no, you'll be done. 00:25:27.855 --> 00:25:30.795 You got this. You're, you're going, you're doing good. Let's, 00:25:30.795 --> 00:25:35.495 let's plan on that. And, and so we said, okay, okay, let's, let's, let's see what we can do. 00:25:35.895 --> 00:25:40.055 So, so we just kind of focused the whole team on like, let's try and finish. 00:25:40.055 --> 00:25:43.295 Not, I think we did two Saturdays

of overtime, but like nothing, 00:25:43.295 --> 00:25:47.015 nothing big as far as that goes, but the system really just supported it. 00:25:47.015 --> 00:25:48.415 Like it was a good system. 00:25:48.775 --> 00:25:53.680 We, we, we got through, our superintendent motivated all the, all the crews on site. 00:25:53.825 --> 00:25:59.275 And so, so now it came down to, you know, the Friday before the, 00:25:59.675 --> 00:26:02.995 the, you know, we're, we're getting, trying to go for the final inspection. 00:26:03.495 --> 00:26:07.395 The, the guy says, you know, we need to add one sprinkler head in the, 00:26:07.695 --> 00:26:10.435 the, the closet before we can get it signed off. 00:26:10.435 --> 00:26:13.725 Right. There's always that last minute thing. So, so first inspection we can 00:26:13.725 --> 00:26:17.255 get is on Monday morning. And I'm like, that's when the kids are showing up. 00:26:17.255 --> 00:26:18.546 The kids are showing up on Monday. 00:26:18.731 --> 00:26:21.964 It's the last inspection. So I'm calling Mike, Mike. 00:26:22.814 --> 00:26:27.044 Can you send the kids to like, like the gym or something for the first couple 00:26:27.044 --> 00:26:29.263 hours? We just need, I know you're all moved in. 00:26:29.530 --> 00:26:31.997 We just need to get this one sign off. Can you just do that? 00:26:32.242 --> 00:26:33.194 And he just kind of laughs. 00:26:33.194 --> 00:26:36.764 He says, Matt, this is meet the teacher week. The kids aren't coming in for another week. 00:26:36.764 --> 00:26:40.574 So yeah, we, we finished on time and, and, and the owner was smart enough to 00:26:40.584 --> 00:26:44.374 have bought himself a little bit of leeway. So it was, it was just a great project. 00:26:44.374 --> 00:26:49.004 Everything, everything came together. You know, the city worked with us really well. 00:26:49.324 --> 00:26:52.394 The school worked with this really well we had great vendors great partners 00:26:52.394 --> 00:26:56.784 that we worked with and so that was if that project had been a disaster we probably 00:26:56.784 --> 00:27:00.244 would have said okay well thanks but no thanks that whole experience didn't 00:27:00.244 --> 00:27:03.450 sound like construction matt i think uh that sounded like something else, 00:27:03.932 --> 00:27:07.984 yeah it was it was eye-opening that you know if you have a good team and really 00:27:07.984 --> 00:27:12.992 have thought through the process really well like yeah you get there's always little problems but 00:27:13.252 --> 00:27:17.934 but it's a pretty simple system it went together really well and so we we felt 00:27:17.934 --> 00:27:21.623 really good about it and i think We were inspired by that. That's so cool. 00:27:22.901 --> 00:27:26.493 You think it didn't sound like construction because it was easy and it worked, 00:27:26.493 --> 00:27:28.003 Stephen? Is that why? Yeah. 00:27:29.054 --> 00:27:34.273 Didn't seem to be any yelling. Anyone got along? All expectations were met. 00:27:34.574 --> 00:27:39.633 Well, I'll tell you one more little story about it. So I told you the superintendent, 00:27:39.633 --> 00:27:44.323 BK, he's like 6'6", like 250 pounds. He's got probably like a gallon of ink 00:27:44.323 --> 00:27:48.267 on his arms. But it's like the nicest guy you will ever meet in your life, right? 00:27:48.708 --> 00:27:54.643 Right. And so it's maybe a month after we completed and the school calls up 00:27:54.643 --> 00:27:58.243 and says, Hey, the kids want to do a meet the teacher day or meet the builder day. 00:27:58.383 --> 00:28:00.753 Can, can you come out for that? Of course, of course we'll come up for that. 00:28:00.753 --> 00:28:03.903 Right. And so, so we came out, it was a couple of other people from the art 00:28:03.903 --> 00:28:05.823 design team, myself and BK. 00:28:06.303 --> 00:28:09.333 Right. And BK is this giant guy and it's a kindergarten. Right. 00:28:09.333 --> 00:28:12.963 So there's these, all these little kids. So, so we sat outside with masks on 00:28:13.403 --> 00:28:17.845 and we read them a book. We read them good night construction site. That's a great book. 00:28:18.182 --> 00:28:22.733 Yeah, it was so much fun. And then, like, after that, they unveiled a little 00:28:22.936 --> 00:28:26.043 poster that said, thank you for our classroom. They had all signed. 00:28:26.503 --> 00:28:30.233 They actually sang us a song. And so, like, I'm, like, almost crying. 00:28:30.233 --> 00:28:32.853 I'm like, all I want to do is kindergarten for the rest of my life. 00:28:32.853 --> 00:28:33.803 Like, this was so much fun. 00:28:36.643 --> 00:28:38.002 Man, I feel like. 00:28:38.699 --> 00:28:44.321 The next project had to be such a letoff. Well, the other one was a little bit. 00:28:44.321 --> 00:28:47.821 The next one also had a funny story, too. It was a middle school. 00:28:47.821 --> 00:28:50.771 And so we were building it on an existing middle school campus. 00:28:50.771 --> 00:28:53.316 And so we were 20 feet away from the middle school building. 00:28:53.659 --> 00:28:56.281 And we had told the staff, like, hey, you know, this building is going to go 00:28:56.281 --> 00:28:59.231 up in five days. You know, so after the slab is done, you know, 00:28:59.231 --> 00:29:01.331 it's going to get erected with crane in five days. 00:29:01.751 --> 00:29:06.211 What happened to be that that was the time that the middle schoolers were heading 00:29:06.211 --> 00:29:12.099 to Washington, D.C. for their Washington, D.C. trip, right? And so a bunch of those kids were gone. 00:29:12.522 --> 00:29:14.921 They thought the teachers were messing with them. They thought they were pulling 00:29:14.921 --> 00:29:18.561 their leg. So they had like bets with the teachers about whether the building 00:29:18.561 --> 00:29:22.733 would be up or not. And sure enough, we mobilized the crane on a Friday afternoon, 00:29:22.977 --> 00:29:24.428 you know, started Monday morning. 00:29:24.626 --> 00:29:28.501 By

Friday afternoon, the crane left. Monday morning, kids came and, 00:29:28.501 --> 00:29:30.951 wow, there's a school building where there wasn't a school building before. 00:29:30.951 --> 00:29:36.141 So that was kind of a fun one to see. Again, TimberQuest making kids happy since 00:29:36.141 --> 00:29:40.405 2021. I like that. I might have to drop off the timeline. 00:29:41.050 --> 00:29:45.425 Construction was so hard that Ken had to leave the industry. It's true. 00:29:47.264 --> 00:29:49.812 Too many guys with mustaches made me cry. 00:29:51.932 --> 00:29:56.655 I couldn't do it anymore. Now he's slinging partnerships in the tech space. 00:29:57.512 --> 00:30:05.432 It is fascinating to see how when you plan a project in a different way and, 00:30:05.952 --> 00:30:09.972 you maybe take a little pressure off of on-site coordination to be perfect. 00:30:09.972 --> 00:30:11.903 Because I think if you really think about what construction is, 00:30:12.402 --> 00:30:16.552 it's an orchestration of so many human beings that really everything has to 00:30:16.552 --> 00:30:22.412 go right for it to go well. And you need to think through sequencing and flow, 00:30:22.912 --> 00:30:24.715 and logistics planning. 00:30:25.672 --> 00:30:29.162 It's very hard to get all that right in the quantity of variables present on site. 00:30:29.162 --> 00:30:34.842 And so I think at its very core, I see pretty fab modular is this idea of let's 00:30:34.842 --> 00:30:40.092 take less pressure off the site, right? Let's handle more things off-site where 00:30:40.092 --> 00:30:41.341 we can control more variables. 00:30:42.752 --> 00:30:47.557 And I think that can lead to those kinds of, you know, making kids happy moments. 00:30:48.497 --> 00:30:53.635 I guess as you look at the future of timber quest i guess how do you think through 00:30:53.635 --> 00:30:57.285 because you've gone from like pre-con director you're in the middle of like 00:30:57.285 --> 00:31:01.975 your problem solving you're digging the shop drawings you know sleeves up to. 00:31:03.155 --> 00:31:07.446 Now you have a company and you're probably wearing a lot of different hats that 00:31:07.626 --> 00:31:13.948 are more related to the business than construction how how has that transition gone, 00:31:14.493 --> 00:31:18.315 well it's been i've been very lucky so when we started i was kind of the technical 00:31:18.315 --> 00:31:23.135 guy and steve uh steve winslow was the the business guy right he was a senior bc, 00:31:23.679 --> 00:31:28.715 so he's retired he's living his best retired life right now but we brought in 00:31:28.715 --> 00:31:34.025 shout out to steve yeah so so aaron rhodes we got brought in to do you know 00:31:34.025 --> 00:31:38.555 what steve had been doing and really to lead the company And so I was luckily, 00:31:39.535 --> 00:31:42.865 I kind of kind of stuck one over on him because I'm like, hey, 00:31:42.865 --> 00:31:45.195 so I'm going to do this technical stuff and you're going to you're going to 00:31:45.195 --> 00:31:49.385 do the insurance and the contracts and the business development and all that other stuff. 00:31:49.385 --> 00:31:52.375 And he said, oh, OK, that sounds fair enough. And he didn't realize that was 00:31:52.375 --> 00:31:53.885 not really a fair division of labor. 00:31:53.885 --> 00:31:57.085 So so I get to do the fun stuff just because I said, you know, 00:31:57.085 --> 00:31:59.915 was was lucky enough to convince him to do all the hard stuff. 00:31:59.915 --> 00:32:06.165 So, so yeah, he's, we, we work together a lot, but really his role is in all 00:32:06.165 --> 00:32:09.393 that business development and building the company and running the company. 00:32:09.683 --> 00:32:13.705 And I get to really dive in on, you know, the technical development and thinking 00:32:13.705 --> 00:32:16.305 about what the next product innovation is going to be. And so, 00:32:16.305 --> 00:32:18.443 so yeah, I kind of get the fun part of that job. 00:32:19.474 --> 00:32:25.010 Makes sense. What, as you look at just goals from a production standpoint, 00:32:25.184 --> 00:32:29.291 are there kind of KPIs that you're kind of focusing in on in terms of how to 00:32:29.291 --> 00:32:32.551 be more competitive with traditional stick builds? 00:32:32.551 --> 00:32:35.680 Or how do you think about the future of where TimberCost is going? 00:32:36.247 --> 00:32:41.681 Yeah, we're wanting to just get this factory scaled up because right now we're 00:32:41.681 --> 00:32:43.131 not as full as we want to be. 00:32:43.511 --> 00:32:49.421 So I think having the factory full up and even production, that's a hard thing 00:32:49.421 --> 00:32:53.581 to get the production flow evened out, especially with these small, 00:32:53.581 --> 00:32:58.261 fast projects where as soon as you get the permit, they want you to be building. 00:32:58.261 --> 00:33:03.011 And so that's a bit of a challenge. So I think getting the factory ramped up, 00:33:03.661 --> 00:33:08.711 you know, the reality is that, you know, trying to eke out the highest efficiency 00:33:08.711 --> 00:33:11.361 out of the factory isn't as important as quality, right? 00:33:11.361 --> 00:33:16.641 You know, the quality corrections on site costs you so much more than any sort 00:33:16.641 --> 00:33:20.741 of like slight improvements in productivity in the factory that really that's 00:33:20.741 --> 00:33:25.347 our focus is how do we make sure that the product is absolutely perfect coming out of the factory? 00:33:25.603 --> 00:33:29.381 And then again how can we add more to that package so we're we're doing more 00:33:29.381 --> 00:33:33.381 stuff prefabricated off-site and i think eventually we'll get to where it's 00:33:33.381 --> 00:33:37.551 like we're really focusing in on that that productivity in the the the, 00:33:38.151 --> 00:33:42.242 factory but but that's just like it's important it's just not as important as 00:33:42.433 --> 00:33:46.727 just

getting the product just perfect so we don't have to correct anything in the field seriously. 00:33:47.776 --> 00:33:53.386 Kent, what would it take to bring you back to construction? Unlimited PTO, 00:33:54.146 --> 00:33:58.462 all of my creature comforts, you know, as a soft-handed tech bro. 00:33:58.677 --> 00:34:02.242 I'm just not cut out for real-life work anymore, guys. 00:34:03.946 --> 00:34:08.776 Yeah. I am curious. Steven mentioned I'm in partnerships, Matt, 00:34:08.776 --> 00:34:11.646 so kind of more on the sales and the go-to-market side. I'm curious, 00:34:11.646 --> 00:34:15.088 like from a sales perspective, I've been thinking about tough customers. 00:34:15.966 --> 00:34:20.076 Selling to GCs is tough, as Stephen well knows. I spent a long time selling 00:34:20.076 --> 00:34:24.560 to nonprofits and churches. That's a pretty tough customer class because they don't have any money. 00:34:25.112 --> 00:34:29.106 Selling to school districts or working with governments is pretty tough. 00:34:29.426 --> 00:34:32.806 It can be challenging. What's been your experience there and your learnings 00:34:32.806 --> 00:34:35.712 there at Timberquist? I know you guys mainly focused on schools, it sounds like. 00:34:36.446 --> 00:34:41.314 How are they as customers and as owners? you know the the thing about it is that schools, 00:34:42.256 --> 00:34:45.986 people people aren't in school building for you know and on the school side 00:34:45.986 --> 00:34:48.726 of things they're not in it for the money they're they're in it for the mission 00:34:48.726 --> 00:34:51.969 so you're you're dealing with a lot of mission driven people and that that's 00:34:52.189 --> 00:34:53.666 that's that's nice right they've got, 00:34:54.446 --> 00:34:57.106 they've got other stuff on their plate that they need to worry about and so 00:34:57.106 --> 00:35:01.446 if we can make their lives a little bit easier that's that's an easy sell you 00:35:01.446 --> 00:35:04.186 know the funding there has been pretty good there's been a good, 00:35:04.666 --> 00:35:07.842 you know bond bonds getting passed in california So there's, 00:35:08.068 --> 00:35:11.104 there's actually like good funding for schools in California. 00:35:11.598 --> 00:35:14.746 The challenge has just been that it's, they're very conservative, 00:35:14.746 --> 00:35:17.786 right? It's a, it's a conservative bunch school buildings. You know, 00:35:17.786 --> 00:35:21.746 you want those buildings to last a hundred years. Like there's legacies involved there. 00:35:22.106 --> 00:35:25.896 And so trying this new, like mass, mass timber, what, like, what are you, 00:35:25.896 --> 00:35:28.976 what are you selling to me? Like, that's a little bit of an uphill battle just 00:35:28.976 --> 00:35:30.167 because it's something new. 00:35:30.295 --> 00:35:32.327 And unfortunately I think there's been enough. 00:35:33.188 --> 00:35:37.591 Splash in the prefab market where people companies will come in and they'll 00:35:37.591 --> 00:35:40.321 make a splash and they go out of business that there's there's a little bit 00:35:40.321 --> 00:35:44.408 of a stain on on the whole industry when we start talking about innovation that 00:35:44.680 --> 00:35:47.601 that is a little bit of an uphill battle right because we're saying hey we're 00:35:47.601 --> 00:35:49.671 we're a tried and true company uh you know our, 00:35:50.291 --> 00:35:55.391 xl is a 30-year company you're backed by xl you know we xl got acquired by gram 00:35:55.391 --> 00:35:56.871 construction which is a hundred year, 00:35:57.451 --> 00:36:01.397 business right so like there's a lot of backing it's not a fly by night but 00:36:01.724 --> 00:36:03.771 you know trying to get that message out and really, 00:36:04.331 --> 00:36:08.291 tell districts that hey this is this is a reliable product but also like the 00:36:08.291 --> 00:36:11.721 experience of the classroom is just dramatically different like you walk into 00:36:11.721 --> 00:36:16.664 the classrooms and they feel so much different than a traditional classroom is 00:36:17.047 --> 00:36:19.861 you have to get people out there like pictures don't do it justice like you 00:36:19.861 --> 00:36:24.591 have to get people out there to see it and so there's just a long marketing, 00:36:25.091 --> 00:36:29.741 process for doing that and as we know construction projects are long incubation 00:36:29.741 --> 00:36:34.471 period so you know you're planting seeds today for something that might come you know come come, 00:36:35.011 --> 00:36:36.991 to to flourish in four years from now, 00:36:37.611 --> 00:36:40.431 so it's just so you have to have some commitment to it but at the end of the 00:36:40.431 --> 00:36:46.371 day you know again if we can be making schools better we make it better for 00:36:46.371 --> 00:36:51.608 the the students for the teachers you know 100 year buildings okay that's that's worth it. 00:36:52.919 --> 00:36:57.291 Well maybe it requires some unconventional marketing you know i was i just moved 00:36:57.291 --> 00:37:01.527 to a new house over the weekend and was hanging a lot of heavy artwork and tvs 00:37:01.875 --> 00:37:05.154 and trying to find a stud was a real challenge and so i was really 00:37:05.507 --> 00:37:09.351 wishing out a mass tuber house where he was just a stud in every hit. 00:37:10.757 --> 00:37:15.501 But you know but if you were to look at like you you kind of briefly touched 00:37:15.501 --> 00:37:17.590 on it it's a healthier environment, 00:37:18.363 --> 00:37:25.001 and i think increasingly i've become more aware about the impact of an environment 00:37:25.001 --> 00:37:28.897 on our psyche and quality of air and all these things. 00:37:30.644 --> 00:37:36.954 What's been, I guess, how much do you have like a budget for kind of doing some 00:37:36.954 --> 00:37:41.233 studies in this area or how much does your marketing kind of peak at? 00:37:41.564 --> 00:37:46.968 Hey, you invest in

Mass Timber and it creates kind of these downstream net health benefits. 00:37:47.183 --> 00:37:51.044 Yeah, well, luckily, you know, we're a tiny little company, right? 00:37:51.044 --> 00:37:55.493 And so the industry as a whole is starting to, I think, really invest in that research. 00:37:55.806 --> 00:37:59.804 I just went to a conference where the keynote was actually a neuroscientist. 00:37:59.804 --> 00:38:03.474 Like how, how often do we get neuroscience in, in, in construction? 00:38:03.474 --> 00:38:10.284 Right. But, but they were doing testing and that impact of that natural environment is so dramatic. 00:38:10.784 --> 00:38:14.414 I mean, it's, it's to the point where it's, where, you know, 00:38:14.414 --> 00:38:19.504 it's the epigenetics. Like it's, it's part of your DNA. It's part of what you pass on to your kids. 00:38:20.144 --> 00:38:23.313 It is really dramatic and it's, it's hard to put into words, 00:38:23.586 --> 00:38:27.784 but when you go into these great mass timber spaces and experience them. 00:38:29.364 --> 00:38:34.964 It's night and day versus a conventional drop ceiling drywall box with a couple of small windows. 00:38:35.364 --> 00:38:38.338 You walk into these classrooms with all this natural exposed wood, 00:38:38.640 --> 00:38:41.514 floor to ceiling glass, views to the outside. 00:38:42.016 --> 00:38:45.574 It's funny. We've taken so many people through tours and we'll say, 00:38:45.574 --> 00:38:48.514 okay, it's a classroom building and they'll be here for five minutes and then 00:38:48.514 --> 00:38:49.603 we're going to get out of here, right? 00:38:50.190 --> 00:38:53.644 90 minutes goes by, right? Because people just like the space they want to hang 00:38:53.644 --> 00:38:58.524 out in it their voice kind of gets quiet when they're in it it's like it's such a dramatic, 00:38:59.244 --> 00:39:04.074 change that it like it's it's i don't even like talking about it because i feel 00:39:04.074 --> 00:39:07.434 like i'm just selling snake oil but you know you walk into these spaces and 00:39:07.434 --> 00:39:10.547 you just experience it yeah i like that, 00:39:11.774 --> 00:39:16.633 Ken, what do you think the early apartments that we once lived in passed on 00:39:16.633 --> 00:39:18.290 to our kids epigenetically? 00:39:19.950 --> 00:39:22.613 I think they were just actually pure asbestos. It was like asbestos. 00:39:24.093 --> 00:39:26.433 It was like an igloo, an asbestos igloo. 00:39:26.853 --> 00:39:28.693 They were just wafting. 00:39:29.633 --> 00:39:34.325 Yeah. The other part of it is just like from an environmental standpoint is, 00:39:34.575 --> 00:39:39.083 you know, someone once said, hey, if it's not mine, if it's not growing, 00:39:39.083 --> 00:39:41.523 it's mine, right? So what do you want to do? You want to build your buildings 00:39:41.523 --> 00:39:43.353 out of something that's mined or something that's ground. 00:39:43.793 --> 00:39:48.053 And so looking at, you know, all the wildfires that we have in California, 00:39:48.393 --> 00:39:53.113 all the, all the negative consequences, like we need to have a really responsible 00:39:53.113 --> 00:39:57.333 forest industry that can manage our forests and providing more markets for that 00:39:57.333 --> 00:39:58.563 is, is really important. 00:39:58.563 --> 00:40:02.033 So like in, you know, we're just not going to be able to keep digging holes 00:40:02.033 --> 00:40:05.275 in the ground to, to the minerals, right? Like we need to have, 00:40:05.512 --> 00:40:09.333 you know, a sustainable process where, yeah, these are natural materials. 00:40:09.536 --> 00:40:12.133 They're actually sequestering carbon from the environment. 00:40:12.513 --> 00:40:16.985 I mean, if somebody, like we didn't have trees and somebody invented them, 00:40:17.143 --> 00:40:21.563 you'd say this was the, you know, invention of the millennia. 00:40:21.563 --> 00:40:25.313 Like something that just naturally grows and just takes sunlight and makes a 00:40:25.313 --> 00:40:30.093 structural material that's renewable. I mean, wood's incredible. 00:40:30.093 --> 00:40:33.223 And, and all the technology around, you know, making it from, 00:40:33.223 --> 00:40:35.162 from wood into an engineered wood product. 00:40:35.289 --> 00:40:40.168 I mean, it's, it's amazing. So it's really what we should be building out of for everything. Hmm. 00:40:41.868 --> 00:40:46.298 So, you know, as we wrap up here, Matt, when you look at kind of your career 00:40:46.466 --> 00:40:51.958 and you go from kind of director of pre-con to TimberQuest and even before then, 00:40:53.018 --> 00:40:55.428 what do you notice is like the threat through your career? 00:40:55.428 --> 00:40:57.818 You mentioned you've got this natural curiosity. 00:40:58.561 --> 00:41:03.722 What would be maybe some of the advice you pass on to the next generation of, 00:41:04.938 --> 00:41:08.886 you know, look into these things, invest in this time? Where does your head go? 00:41:09.698 --> 00:41:11.452 Yeah, it's a great question. 00:41:12.278 --> 00:41:15.518 I think curiosity is a big part of it. To be curious about your world, 00:41:15.938 --> 00:41:17.598 how do things go together? 00:41:19.963 --> 00:41:24.138 The answer isn't just get the RFI answered and shuffle a piece of paper to the 00:41:24.138 --> 00:41:26.598 next person. It's really understand it. 00:41:27.118 --> 00:41:31.278 Why is it like that? Why do we build it that way? Because there's a lot of ingrained knowledge. 00:41:31.598 --> 00:41:36.738 You know we've been building you know for hundreds of years and and now there's 00:41:36.738 --> 00:41:40.638 these kind of standard practices but nobody really understands why because it's 00:41:40.638 --> 00:41:43.982 just so ingrained now so like question that like why is it that way be, 00:41:44.858 --> 00:41:49.024 be willing to you know ask those questions 00:41:49.385 --> 00:41:52.566 and know that like nine times out of ten when you

think you have a better idea 00:41:52.699 --> 00:41:57.118 you probably don't but that's okay right like let's let's ask those dumb questions 00:41:57.118 --> 00:42:00.658 let's challenge things let's learn more because you know on that 10th time you're 00:42:00.658 --> 00:42:04.134 going to come up with something that says oh yeah well in this circumstance 00:42:04.465 --> 00:42:07.628 you know i think there actually might be a better solution out there so so i 00:42:07.628 --> 00:42:12.491 think being curious being willing to to to be open-minded. 00:42:13.398 --> 00:42:17.418 Challenge without threatening those are all like really good traits if you really 00:42:17.418 --> 00:42:22.535 want to kind of understand the mechanics of our world and how construction projects go together, 00:42:23.373 --> 00:42:26.806 I feel like that last one, Ken, you probably could have listened to it even more. 00:42:27.586 --> 00:42:31.896 I was going to say, I do. There's like some like shame when I think back about 00:42:31.896 --> 00:42:34.769 my time in construction when I was mostly in my mid-twenties, 00:42:35.292 --> 00:42:39.746 you know, challenging with all the confidence that only like an entry-level 25-year-old can have. 00:42:40.346 --> 00:42:44.026 I'm just like the solid conviction that if they'd made you CEO that day, 00:42:44.026 --> 00:42:45.613 the company would be in a better place. 00:42:46.066 --> 00:42:49.796 Just, you know, the humility to be able to like play that out over a career 00:42:49.796 --> 00:42:53.105 and then like with the perspective of years is helpful. 00:42:53.743 --> 00:42:55.786 Kent, do you have a message for George Rogers right now? 00:42:57.006 --> 00:42:59.366 If he's listening. I think mostly he's saying, I'm sorry. 00:43:01.406 --> 00:43:05.266 I apologize. So, Matt, George Rogers was the CEO of RQ. 00:43:05.906 --> 00:43:09.776 And, you know, Kent and I went to Wheaton College, did not have a construction 00:43:09.776 --> 00:43:10.725 management background. 00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:12.806 And, you know, part of the thesis 00:43:12.806 --> 00:43:16.361 that RQ is kind of putting together was like, hey, let's bring in... 00:43:16.945 --> 00:43:22.380 Intelligent young people in the organization and kind of teaching with instruction, 00:43:22.938 --> 00:43:30.318 and so can i were part of that group and a number of others and you know i think they did a great job of, 00:43:31.318 --> 00:43:35.759 onboarding us into a net new kind of you know situation, 00:43:36.299 --> 00:43:41.328 and but i think as kate mentioned there's always a youthful ignorance as you 00:43:41.328 --> 00:43:46.168 go about kind of new endeavors and that certainly informed maybe some friction 00:43:46.168 --> 00:43:47.071 that we might have created. 00:43:48.685 --> 00:43:50.746 That we're only now apologizing for. 00:43:51.598 --> 00:43:54.918 Well, I want to say, just before you wrap up, Stephen, because I'm guest host 00:43:54.918 --> 00:43:56.258 here, I'm going to do some story time as well. 00:43:56.578 --> 00:43:59.518 Matt, I think you'll appreciate this one. This is going back to that building 00:43:59.518 --> 00:44:04.423 he mentioned, the Seabees Museum. So these prefab concrete panels that we're putting in. 00:44:04.747 --> 00:44:09.308 I used this story in interviews for decades after the fact, to the question 00:44:09.308 --> 00:44:12.738 of give me a time when you had to solve a hard problem with a deadline or something 00:44:12.738 --> 00:44:16.394 like that. because, Matt, this was, like, I think the last day of putting the panels in place. 00:44:16.661 --> 00:44:20.265 Crane's getting off-site tomorrow. Got to get it off-site tomorrow. No ifs, ands, or buts. 00:44:20.753 --> 00:44:23.198 The trailer was parked on a little bit of an incline, and these are, 00:44:23.198 --> 00:44:26.824 like, 4,000 to 6,000-pound, you know, concrete panels. 00:44:27.028 --> 00:44:30.498 So they picked one from one side, and the truck shifted, and then the one on 00:44:30.498 --> 00:44:32.831 the other side fell off on the ground, right? 00:44:33.342 --> 00:44:36.454 Could have killed somebody. So that's the first problem. The site safety coordinator was not thrilled. 00:44:36.859 --> 00:44:40.218 But then after we realized everyone was still alive, we realized, 00:44:40.218 --> 00:44:44.078 well, here's a panel that has to be put in place tomorrow or we're, 00:44:44.678 --> 00:44:46.438 you know, you have the crane here over the weekend and we're screwed. 00:44:46.438 --> 00:44:49.758 And of course the manufacturing site was 45 miles away and we didn't have the 00:44:49.758 --> 00:44:52.138 steel beams that we needed and that was going to be a three-day lead time. 00:44:52.138 --> 00:44:53.638 And there's like a 24-hour cure 00:44:53.638 --> 00:44:55.974 period for the concrete. Like all these problems that had to be solved. 00:44:56.409 --> 00:44:58.558 And I think it's one of the beauties of the construction industry, 00:44:58.558 --> 00:45:01.413 right? Is like, you just get people like, well, we know we're going to do it. 00:45:01.547 --> 00:45:04.938 So like, let's just establish that there is an answer here and nobody's going 00:45:04.938 --> 00:45:06.939 to like stop and leave until we get this sorted. 00:45:07.309 --> 00:45:11.258 And by like borrowing some like pre-cut, you know, steel from another contractor. 00:45:11.258 --> 00:45:14.276 I'm like, I'll get you back next week. We're taking this back to the job site. 00:45:14.501 --> 00:45:17.418 We're bringing in some guys over time to pour some concrete and we got it back 00:45:17.418 --> 00:45:18.913 up and got it put up the next day. And I'm like. 00:45:19.535 --> 00:45:23.681 Yeah 15 years later i could still like remember that day is like the most proud 00:45:23.681 --> 00:45:27.981 feeling i felt in my career like you know what problem happened had to be solved 00:45:27.981 --> 00:45:31.463 we figured it out

together and it was like a really just a really cool thing that happens, 00:45:31.905 --> 00:45:34.831 and this is one of the magic things about time and time again yeah this is one 00:45:34.831 --> 00:45:37.841 of the magic things about our industry right is that that that there is like 00:45:37.841 --> 00:45:41.231 a you get the right people who have the can-do attitude and like yeah 00:45:41.571 --> 00:45:44.181 we're going to figure out you know with bailing wire and duct tape how to make 00:45:44.181 --> 00:45:48.471 this work and and you know there's always solutions there it's it's about finding the people who, 00:45:49.211 --> 00:45:53.461 who have those attitudes because there's there's you know there's always the 00:45:53.461 --> 00:45:57.181 person who says i've been doing this for 40 years and as soon as i hear that 00:45:57.181 --> 00:45:58.481 i tune out i'm like i don't that 00:45:58.481 --> 00:46:02.417 doesn't mean anything to me like like i respect the experience but like 00:46:02.852 --> 00:46:05.951 i really want to know what you think and like you know how you're approaching 00:46:05.951 --> 00:46:10.341 this like just like don't question me because i got 40 years of experience that 00:46:10.341 --> 00:46:14.751 doesn't work right like i'm going to move on to the next person so you get the you get the people who, 00:46:15.511 --> 00:46:19.471 who say hey we're problem solvers we're gonna we're gonna work together for 00:46:19.471 --> 00:46:22.751 this i mean that's the fun that's the fun part of our industry if it was all 00:46:22.751 --> 00:46:24.955 perfect it probably wouldn't be as fun yeah, 00:46:25.626 --> 00:46:28.711 i mean it's got the hardest problems and it's got the best people i think that's 00:46:28.711 --> 00:46:30.451 what i always go back to about this industry 00:46:30.771 --> 00:46:35.141 is it's got great people can't what what is your one thing looking back to what's 00:46:35.141 --> 00:46:38.531 the what's the thing you tell you a 25 year old self other than maybe you know 00:46:38.531 --> 00:46:41.683 shut up a bit more shut up a bit more. 00:46:42.682 --> 00:46:46.295 I mean, yeah, I think, like, appreciating, I guess, is part of shutting up, 00:46:46.295 --> 00:46:49.954 like, listen more, you know? Listen, learn, observe more, absorb more. 00:46:50.192 --> 00:46:52.855 Like, that grizzled old guy with the mustache isn't just, like, 00:46:52.855 --> 00:46:55.365 an out-of-touch boomer. Like, turns out he might know some things that you don't 00:46:55.365 --> 00:46:58.111 know, and maybe if you listen long enough, you could learn some of it. 00:46:58.407 --> 00:47:01.645 And so, I think appreciating diverse perspective from people who don't have 00:47:01.645 --> 00:47:03.625 the same background as me, didn't, you know, grow up like I did, 00:47:03.625 --> 00:47:05.345 was really, really helpful. 00:47:05.905 --> 00:47:08.515 You know, if I'd been a little bit wiser in that time, I would have taken on 00:47:08.515 --> 00:47:13.762 it. And I have tried to absorb here in my now seasoned state beyond 40. 00:47:16.208 --> 00:47:19.912 Man, one more question for you. It's kind of a curveball. I think it's, 00:47:20.335 --> 00:47:23.875 we're in this age where like every business is feeling all kinds of pressure 00:47:23.875 --> 00:47:27.555 to become like 15 other things other than what it is now, right? 00:47:27.555 --> 00:47:29.438 Like vertical integration is really big. 00:47:29.867 --> 00:47:32.855 If you're in the tech side, it's like not just your own category, 00:47:32.855 --> 00:47:36.042 you got to dominate, you got to become, you know, 15 other categories as well. 00:47:37.185 --> 00:47:40.941 As timber quest goes on its quest to kind of take over everything what, 00:47:41.865 --> 00:47:47.025 what is what does that look like for you so do you become your own builder do you, 00:47:47.663 --> 00:47:52.065 do more interior fit out as a part of the timber quest package have you thought 00:47:52.065 --> 00:47:55.635 through what that becomes or do you just stay core shell, 00:47:56.262 --> 00:48:00.155 well i think that what you know because right now our our model is is a turnkey 00:48:00.155 --> 00:48:05.115 delivery you know so We'll do foundations, we'll do the whole building, 00:48:05.115 --> 00:48:07.005 including all the interior fit out, 00:48:07.587 --> 00:48:10.965 and we don't want to do site work, so we kind of draw the line at site work, 00:48:11.405 --> 00:48:13.975 but other than that, we're doing a turnkey building. 00:48:14.272 --> 00:48:16.204 Got it. That is... 00:48:17.215 --> 00:48:21.250 That's not as scalable because there's still a lot of on-site traits right there's 00:48:21.250 --> 00:48:24.160 still a lot of you know hiring the flooring guy hiring the painter hiring the 00:48:24.160 --> 00:48:27.576 roofer you know that sort of thing so so are we, 00:48:28.214 --> 00:48:33.200 do we want to do that for the rest of our lives well maybe not and so how we're 00:48:33.390 --> 00:48:36.730 developing this kit right and this kit is going to become more and more robust 00:48:36.730 --> 00:48:40.506 where more and more components are part of it and so eventually it's, 00:48:41.107 --> 00:48:44.700 okay how do we become the uh you know butler builders right where we're we're 00:48:44.700 --> 00:48:49.100 selling a kit of parts to certified installers okay that they can now do what 00:48:49.100 --> 00:48:52.140 they do best right which is which is manage the site work and manage all those 00:48:52.140 --> 00:48:54.616 on-site trades the the ones that you still need 00:48:54.842 --> 00:48:57.760 um and assembling this kit that that will be pretty smart 00:48:58.120 --> 00:49:01.240 and but will you know there's still going to be some things that are left to 00:49:01.240 --> 00:49:04.950 finish right so so how do we do that now we've transitioned more to thinking 00:49:04.950 --> 00:49:07.929 about the design side right and how how do we. 00:49:08.663 --> 00:49:14.285 Go from this kit of parts which is which is you know fixed to okay well, 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.760 yeah we've got all this technology now like how how do we make that a little 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:21.840 bit more variable where where we can provide more optionality within the design 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:27.120 right so i think i think that's the that's the transitions it's really twofold how do we do um, 00:49:27.849 --> 00:49:32.210 how do we provide that really robust kit to other people to install so that 00:49:32.210 --> 00:49:36.710 now we can really scale it you know geographically and then how can we make 00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:39.980 our digital systems so much more robust and, 00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:46.010 integrated with our factory that we can provide really that true mass customization 00:49:46.010 --> 00:49:47.920 that the industry has been talking about for.